hello,

in the new FAQ draft GW clarified that psychic shriek (and other powers that do not have a profile) automaticly hit - so no to hit rolls.

but can it be fired as a snapshot?

is there any rule that prevent or allows this? i thought there was a passage in the rulebook that stated something along the lines: "shooting attacks that do not roll to hit cannot be fired as snapshots" i did a quick glance through the rulebook but couldnt find that particular rule anymore... maybe i just confused it with blast and templates rules in regards to snapshots...


any ideas?

When would you ever be forced to take a psychic power as a snapshot?

 Hanskrampf wrote:
When would you ever be forced to take a psychic power as a snapshot?

When you were riding in a transport that jinked or you were a psychic pilot that jinked?

or when you are shooting at flyers or FMC or invisible units for that matter

EDIT:

ok i found it... under snapshots -.-

"Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1."

so no snapshots for withfires that dont use weapon profiles? or am i missing somethin?

RedNoak wrote:
or when you are shooting at flyers or FMC or invisible units for that matter

EDIT:

ok i found it... under snapshots -.-

"Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1."

so no snapshots for withfires that dont use weapon profiles? or am i missing somethin?

I'd agree to that. witchfires are shooting attacks that don't need BS.

"any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot."

That seems pretty solid to me that shriek can't be used since it doesn't use BS to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naaris wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
or when you are shooting at flyers or FMC or invisible units for that matter

EDIT:

ok i found it... under snapshots -.-

"Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1."

so no snapshots for withfires that dont use weapon profiles? or am i missing somethin?

I'd agree to that. witchfires are shooting attacks that don't need BS.

No, witchfires do need BS if they have a profile and thus most of them can snap shot. Psychic Shriek is an exception. It in particular doesn't use BS and thus doesn't get to snap shot.

Zimko wrote:
No, witchfires do need BS if they have a profile and thus most of them can snap shot. Psychic Shriek is an exception. It in particular doesn't use BS and thus doesn't get to snap shot.

yes absolutly. i was only talking about withfires that dont roll to hit. normal witchfires can be shot as snapshots.

"Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in
the same way as with other shooting weapons."

Riddle me this - what about psykers (like a broodlord) with BS0 but have psychic shriek. Can they use it?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Riddle me this - what about psykers (like a broodlord) with BS0 but have psychic shriek. Can they use it?

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than
shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of
those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they
have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also

make of this what you want

By the RAW, the Genestealer Cult Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek, despite it being the only Primaris power it can know. However, I believe the intent is that it could use it, considering that the board game version of the Patriarch actually has the Psychic Shriek ability, and GW simply dropped the ball on this.

RedNoak wrote:
hello,

in the new FAQ draft GW clarified that psychic shriek (and other powers that do not have a profile) automaticly hit - so no to hit rolls.

but can it be fired as a snapshot?

is there any rule that prevent or allows this? i thought there was a passage in the rulebook that stated something along the lines: "shooting attacks that do not roll to hit cannot be fired as snapshots" i did a quick glance through the rulebook but couldnt find that particular rule anymore... maybe i just confused it with blast and templates rules in regards to snapshots...


any ideas?

The FAQ doesn't say "autohit", it says "follow instructions written for that power". Going by their "apply common sense" style of FAQ answers I'd say you can use Psychic Scream, it's "not really" a shooting attack. But that's just HIWPI. Same for BS0 - it's rather obvious that Patriachs should use Psychic Shriek, even though the RAW would prevent it.

It automatically hits, as there are at least 2 faq answers that I saw on this. As it autohiots, it cannot be used as a snapshot and therefore you need skyfire to hit a swooping FMC

 Yarium wrote:
By the RAW, the Genestealer Cult Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek, despite it being the only Primaris power it can know. However, I believe the intent is that it could use it, considering that the board game version of the Patriarch actually has the Psychic Shriek ability, and GW simply dropped the ball on this.

In light of the first draft FAQ, what would prevent him from using Psychic Shriek?

Q: Does the To Hit roll for certain witchfire powers that affect ‘targeted models’ care what the result of the To Hit roll is?
A: If a witchfire power does not have a profile, follow the instructions written for that power instead – this includes most focussed witchfire powers. If a witchfire power has a profile, the To Hit rolls matter in the same way as they do in any shooting attack.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
By the RAW, the Genestealer Cult Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek, despite it being the only Primaris power it can know. However, I believe the intent is that it could use it, considering that the board game version of the Patriarch actually has the Psychic Shriek ability, and GW simply dropped the ball on this.

In light of the first draft FAQ, what would prevent him from using Psychic Shriek?

Q: Does the To Hit roll for certain witchfire powers that affect ‘targeted models’ care what the result of the To Hit roll is?
A: If a witchfire power does not have a profile, follow the instructions written for that power instead – this includes most focussed witchfire powers. If a witchfire power has a profile, the To Hit rolls matter in the same way as they do in any shooting attack.

That's kind of what I meant - according to the new FAQ, can a psyker with BS0 cast psychic shriek, which is a psychic shooting attack that does not roll to hit. I'm not sure RAW, but since it seems only reasonable to let them use their only primaris power.

Models with BS0 can't make shooting attacks. The errata states it best:

Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire
Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of the first paragraph:
‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek); where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically.’

Great, so if you use the power, you hit automatically. But, if you're BS0, you can't even get the option to start trying to shoot. Can't automatically hit with anything that doesn't shoot to begin with, which is what BS0 imposes.

That said, I'm 100% behind the Psychic Shriek still functioning, as it seems pretty clear that the intent is that such powers aren't even shooting attacks at all, but the rules written for them were just lazily shoe-horned in without realizing all the repercussions of doing so.

 Yarium wrote:
Models with BS0 can't make shooting attacks. The errata states it best:

Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire
Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of the first paragraph:
‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek); where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically.’

Great, so if you use the power, you hit automatically. But, if you're BS0, you can't even get the option to start trying to shoot. Can't automatically hit with anything that doesn't shoot to begin with, which is what BS0 imposes.

That said, I'm 100% behind the Psychic Shriek still functioning, as it seems pretty clear that the intent is that such powers aren't even shooting attacks at all, but the rules written for them were just lazily shoe-horned in without realizing all the repercussions of doing so.

sorry, but psychic shriek is pretty clear. its an shooting attack (all witchfires are) that uses a special method to hit (i.e. not rolling to hit) as such cannot be used via snapfiring.

i can give you the quotes from the rulebook if you want or you can find em yourself by browsing through this thread.


as far as the patriarch goes... RAW clearly says no. but i personally would allow it. (commen sense n stuff and tyranids really need every buff they can get)

The way i read the rule is that they are psychic powers that they dont have to direct. i would say that even if they had to snap shot they would hit. Because they dont have to aim. Because they aren't really traditional shooting attacks like a template weapon is plus the way the FAQ reads to me that they never actually snap shoot the way a normal weapon would.

As far as the brood lord and his BS0, the way i read it is that his BS is totally irrelevant when firing one of the powers that does not require you to hit. But that is how i read it. Its not a weapon he is shooting, its a psychic attack, just SOME of them make you actual aim.

I can't find anywhere in the book that says a BS 0 model cannot make a shooting attack, BS 0 misses but per psy shriek all you need is the ability to target

 Dyslexican32 wrote:
The way i read the rule is that they are psychic powers that they dont have to direct. i would say that even if they had to snap shot they would hit. Because they dont have to aim. Because they aren't really traditional shooting attacks like a template weapon is plus the way the FAQ reads to me that they never actually snap shoot the way a normal weapon would.

i dont know what rules you read, but again, this one is pretty clear:

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1.

does psychic shriek roll to hit normally or does it have a certain special rule in regarding to hitting the target? in addition... does it use BS to hit the target?

An attack that doesnt use BS, can't snap shoot its crystal clear as others have said. BS 0 models however still can make shooting attacks, and can use shooting attacks that don't use BS

RedNoak wrote:

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they
have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also...

make of this what you want

Where is the actual rule in this quote. I don't have my BRB with me right now, but the part that is cut off is probably the actual rule.
If it says "Models with BS0 cannot make shooting attacks", then that is pretty clear that a Patriarch cannot use Shriek.
However, if it says "Models with BS0 automatically fail to hit rolls", then we have a muddier situation in which we have to decide what takes priority: Auto-fail or Auto-succeed?

--

 Galef wrote:

RedNoak wrote:

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they
have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also...

make of this what you want

Where is the actual rule in this quote. I don't have my BRB with me right now, but the part that is cut off is probably the actual rule.
If it says "Models with BS0 cannot make shooting attacks", then that is pretty clear that a Patriarch cannot use Shriek.
However, if it says "Models with BS0 automatically fail to hit rolls", then we have a muddier situation in which we have to decide what takes priority: Auto-fail or Auto-succeed?

--

Its under 'Zero-Level Characteristics' on page 9 and makes no specific mention of Ballistic Skill at all.

 Ghaz wrote:

Its under 'Zero-Level Characteristics' on page 9 and makes no specific mention of Ballistic Skill at all.

Nor excludes it, either.

Here is the pertinent sentence:

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a ‘–’).

The rest of the section is regarding specific situations, such as WS being both an offensive and defensive state, certain stats mean automatic death, and Armour Saves with a zero stat providing no benefit at all.

And it could just mean that he fails his To Hit roll if required to make one instead of not being able to shoot at all. Until GW defines what it means by having 'no ability whatsoever' when it comes to Ballistic Skill then one answer is just as likely to be correct as the other.

 Ghaz wrote:
And it could just mean that he fails his To Hit roll if required to make one instead of not being able to shoot at all. Until GW defines what it means by having 'no ability whatsoever' when it comes to Ballistic Skill then one answer is just as likely to be correct as the other.

"No ability" does not always translate to "always misses". In most cases "no ability" means no option to even start preparing to miss. BS 0 with a hundred guns has the same ability to shoot as a model with no guns in this case.

So since I have no ability to ride a motorbike I can't hop on one and try and ride it? Please give us a definition of what 'no ability' means in the rules. Page and paragraph.

 Ghaz wrote:
So since I have no ability to ride a motorbike I can't hop on one and try and ride it? Please give us a definition of what 'no ability' means in the rules. Page and paragraph.

Provide a proper counter that it doesn't mean that? A model with no ranged weapon has no ability to shoot, yes or no? Why or why not?

Falling down on a motorbike is not riding it. It is potentially damaging the vehicle and yourself.

So you can't provide a definition of what 'no ability' means then, can you? Yet you're trying to insist that your definition is the one with no support.

 Ghaz wrote:
So you can't provide a definition of what 'no ability' means then, can you? Yet you're trying to insist that your definition is the one with no support.

No Ability means they can not perform that task at all.

The rules for Zero-level Characteristics state:

"Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a ‘–’). A model with Weapon Skill ‘0’ is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows..."

If a Weapon Skill ‘0’ model is incapacitated and cannot strike any blows.Then a BS 0 means that can not shoot.

Except again, where has GW stated that BS0 = can not shoot in the 7th edition rulebook? Please provide a page number and paragraph to support this.

 Ghaz wrote:
Except again, where has GW stated that BS0 = can not shoot in the 7th edition rulebook? Please provide a page number and paragraph to support this.

Right there as already referenced, as provided by the examples given.

An Armour Save of 0 means the model is incapable of making an Armour Save. A WS of 0 means the model cannot strike any blows, same with Attacks.

Out of those, which does BS most closely apply?

A model can have 100 Attacks, but a WS of 0, what is the result?

A model with a WS 10, but has 0 Attacks. What is the result?

What the is the end result difference between these two?

Where does it state that BS 0 models have a different result than WS 0 for generating Attacks?

 Ghaz wrote:
Except again, where has GW stated that BS0 = can not shoot in the 7th edition rulebook? Please provide a page number and paragraph to support this.

Good point, IIRC this was a 6th edition rule. I couldn't find anything that says BS0 = can't fire.

The rulebook actually tells us what happens with both WS0 and Armour Saves worse that a 6+. It does no such thing for BS0.

Again, there is no definition that BS0 means that the model can't shoot instead of automatically failing his Ballistic Skill Test (i.e., his To Hit roll). With GW's track record it could be either one or one no one thought of.

 Ghaz wrote:
The rulebook actually tells us what happens with both WS0 and Armour Saves worse that a 6+. It does no such thing for BS0.

Again, there is no definition that BS0 means that the model can't shoot instead of automatically failing his Ballistic Skill Test (i.e., his To Hit roll). With GW's track record it could be either one or one no one thought of.

The rulebook gives two examples...

BS0 = No Ability = Can not shoot.

Anyone who thinks that BS 0 should still be able to use Shriek should definitely let 40K FB know. I, personally, think they *should* be able to, but as of right now they cannot.

It's obvious a model with BS0 can't perform a shooting attack.

The closest thing we have for what happens with BS0 is the rules under snap shots, which states:

BRB, The Shooting Phase, Roll to Hit, Snap Shots, first paragraph, last sentence wrote:If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

There's two potential ways to read this. Either 1) the paragraph states what happens when a model has both BS0 AND is Snap Shooting (it makes no shots), or 2) the paragraph states what happens during snap shots, UNLESS its BS is already lower than 1 (aka BS0) and just re-explains what happens in that case.

To me, it makes more sense that it's explaining what happens when a model with BS naturally lower than 1 tries to make a Snap Shot, which means that a model that normally cannot shoot doesn't go "up" to BS1, but rather stays at the BS0 and cannot shoot as normal.

HIWPI psychic shriek should not be, and never should have been classed as a witchfire. The only reason i can think of for making it a witchfire is the person that wrote it was under the impression that all the powers had to be one of the types listed in the book.

There is no profile, roll to hit, no normal roll to wound. It's not, in any way other than name, a shooting attack

IMO BS0 models described as being unable to shoot is maybe not a blanket rule, but comes from the fact that in the vast majority of cases you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 which is not possible.

In the case of Psychic Shriek though, you don't roll to hit and so it doesn't really matter what your BS is. As has always been the case, generating wounds from Psychic Shriek is not dependent on a successful To Hit roll.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
IMO BS0 models described as being unable to shoot is maybe not a blanket rule, but comes from the fact that in the vast majority of cases you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 which is not possible.

In the case of Psychic Shriek though, you don't roll to hit and so it doesn't really matter what your BS is. As has always been the case, generating wounds from Psychic Shriek is not dependent on a successful To Hit roll.

You don't Roll To Hit with Templates or Blast, either, but because they are Shooting Attacks like the Witchfire Psychic Shriek, you still cannot shoot with them.

In addition, 0 stat characteristics present a specific case of inability to use whatever they are tied to. This is referenced even later on in the Snap Shot section, as someone pointed out.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
IMO BS0 models described as being unable to shoot is maybe not a blanket rule, but comes from the fact that in the vast majority of cases you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 which is not possible.

In the case of Psychic Shriek though, you don't roll to hit and so it doesn't really matter what your BS is. As has always been the case, generating wounds from Psychic Shriek is not dependent on a successful To Hit roll.

You don't Roll To Hit with Templates or Blast, either, but because they are Shooting Attacks like the Witchfire Psychic Shriek, you still cannot shoot with them.

In addition, 0 stat characteristics present a specific case of inability to use whatever they are tied to. This is referenced even later on in the Snap Shot section, as someone pointed out.

Yeah, the RAW is pretty clear on that. BS0 means no shooting attacks that don't roll To Hit, witchfires are a shooting attack, Psychic Scream is a witchfire and doesn't roll ToHit.
HIWPI though is "you're allowed to use it", even though it - obviously - contradicts the RAW - but I'm convinced that that's the intention of the rule in THIS instance, and if the FAQs made one thing clear is that the spirit of the rule is above the written rule in GWs mind. See scatter & jink, for example - it was extremely unintuitive NOT to allow jink from any point of view except for the pure rules as written.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
IMO BS0 models described as being unable to shoot is maybe not a blanket rule, but comes from the fact that in the vast majority of cases you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 which is not possible.

In the case of Psychic Shriek though, you don't roll to hit and so it doesn't really matter what your BS is. As has always been the case, generating wounds from Psychic Shriek is not dependent on a successful To Hit roll.

You don't Roll To Hit with Templates or Blast, either, but because they are Shooting Attacks like the Witchfire Psychic Shriek, you still cannot shoot with them.

In addition, 0 stat characteristics present a specific case of inability to use whatever they are tied to. This is referenced even later on in the Snap Shot section, as someone pointed out.

Templates and blasts aren't like Psychic Shriek because you still use BS re scatter. Where does it say that BS0 absolutely excludes making a shooting attack?

Sorry, a little loopy at the moment...

But why would Novas hit if Psy Shriek couldn't?

Templates dont scatter.

A quote was already given, which is a reminder (parens) that a model with BS0 may not make any attack.

Goobi2 wrote:
Sorry, a little loopy at the moment...

But why would Novas hit if Psy Shriek couldn't?

Until recently, there has not been a BS0 Psyker with access to a Nova or auto-hit power (that I know of). It is only the recent FAQ saying that Shriek auto-hits that has opened this discussion as a Genestealer Patriarch has access to Telepathy. If there is a BS0 Psyker with a Nova, they would follow the same rules as a BS0 Psyker with Shriek

My interpretation is that RAW, he cannot use Shriek, but that RAI he should be able to.

--

 Charistoph wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Its under 'Zero-Level Characteristics' on page 9 and makes no specific mention of Ballistic Skill at all.

Nor excludes it, either.

Here is the pertinent sentence:

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a ‘–’).

The rest of the section is regarding specific situations, such as WS being both an offensive and defensive state, certain stats mean automatic death, and Armour Saves with a zero stat providing no benefit at all.

Then it is clear: Does Psychic Shriek / Scream require a ballistic skill roll? Yes or no?

 Galef wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:
Sorry, a little loopy at the moment...

But why would Novas hit if Psy Shriek couldn't?

Until recently, there has not been a BS0 Psyker with access to a Nova or auto-hit power (that I know of). It is only the recent FAQ saying that Shriek auto-hits that has opened this discussion as a Genestealer Patriarch has access to Telepathy. If there is a BS0 Psyker with a Nova, they would follow the same rules as a BS0 Psyker with Shriek

My interpretation is that RAW, he cannot use Shriek, but that RAI he should be able to.

--

Ah, I was still hung up on snap shots (such as against flyers). If a Nova can hit flyers without rolling to hit, why can't Psy Shriek?

Goobi2 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:
Sorry, a little loopy at the moment...

But why would Novas hit if Psy Shriek couldn't?

Until recently, there has not been a BS0 Psyker with access to a Nova or auto-hit power (that I know of). It is only the recent FAQ saying that Shriek auto-hits that has opened this discussion as a Genestealer Patriarch has access to Telepathy. If there is a BS0 Psyker with a Nova, they would follow the same rules as a BS0 Psyker with Shriek

My interpretation is that RAW, he cannot use Shriek, but that RAI he should be able to.

--

Ah, I was still hung up on snap shots (such as against flyers). If a Nova can hit flyers without rolling to hit, why can't Psy Shriek?

The FAQ stated these two rules changes in the beginning.

Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire
Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of the first paragraph:
‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek); where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically.’

Q: Does a template weapon aimed at a unit at ground level but also touching a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature hit it? Does a blast marker that drifts onto a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature hit it?
A: No, in both cases. Template and Blast weapons and other attacks that don’t roll To Hit cannot hit Flying Monstrous Creatures that are Swooping.

Tonberry7 wrote:Templates and blasts aren't like Psychic Shriek because you still use BS re scatter. Where does it say that BS0 absolutely excludes making a shooting attack?

I don't remember Templates Scattering, and not all Blasts are affected by BS. But still, BS 0 means no ability to Shoot. This is reinforced by the Snap Shot rule that someone previously quoted.

Snap Shots
Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots – opportunistic bursts of fire ‘snapped’ off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when units make Overwatch shots. If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

(in which case it may not shoot)

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

You're right! it's not "a 'ballistic' "! It's a witchfire. Witchfires are shooting attacks. Shooting attacks without profiles may not be snap shot. BS0 models cannot shoot, therefore they cannot use witchfires. Which is sad, because it would hit automatically if he could fire it...but he can't.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

Toy Soldiers (from English "Toy" and "Soldier") are inanimate objects that are in some instances placed on top of a table to play something called a "tabletop" (from English "table" and "top"). Inanimate objects can't manifest Psychic Powers, because the Warp isn't real.

Your Patriarch can't cast Psychic Scream since he's a Toy Soldier.

nekooni wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

Toy Soldiers (from English "Toy" and "Soldier") are inanimate objects that are in some instances placed on top of a table to play something called a "tabletop" (from English "table" and "top"). Inanimate objects can't manifest Psychic Powers, because the Warp isn't real.

Your Patriarch can't cast Psychic Scream since he's a Toy Soldier.

the warp is real......i can hear it

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

This definition you have provided is 100% useless to this discussion. Lasguns and Lascannons use a Beam. A Shooting Attack is not always a Ballistics Attack. They are under the same standards for shooting as the autocannon, missile launcher, and Earthshaker. The game does not differentiate in these cases.

The rules state that a zero-level characteristic indicates that the model has no ability in that area. What is BS used for?

Ballistic Skill (BS)
This shows how accurate a warrior is with ranged weapons of all kinds, from pistols firing blazing bolts of plasma to earth-shaking battle cannons. The higher this characteristic is, the easier a creature finds it to hit targets with shooting attacks.

This combined with the reminder in Snap Shots tells us that a model with BS 0 has no ability with ranged Weapons of any kind, from pistols firing bolts of plasma to earth-shaking battle cannons. Furthermore:

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons. Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power. Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically. Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in the same way as with other shooting weapons. Saves can be taken against Wounds from witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack, and hits are allocated to the closest target models to the Psyker.

The only exceptions noted for this is that there are no limits to how many Witchfire Attacks can be made, and how the different Attacks are represented. Psychic Shriek does not apply to any of these different types, though.

<delete>

@Charistoph

pistols, plasma, cannons - all of those things require skill to aim and hit a target - i.e. ballistic skill - you added lascannons and lasguns and other beams - still require skill to aim and understandably require ballistic skill to hit.

The shriek has been FAQed to auto-hit, no need to roll to hit.

The BRB absolutely does not define 'no ability' of ballistic skill (value 0) to disallow all shooting attacks - its just that if you look on the ballistic skill table, 0 is not listed so you could not hit - IF you had to roll to hit - which shriek does not.

The fluff supports it and the rules support it.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
@Charistoph

pistols, plasma, cannons - all of those things require skill to aim and hit a target - i.e. ballistic skill - you added lascannons and lasguns and other beams - still require skill to aim and understandably require ballistic skill to hit.

The shriek has been FAQed to auto-hit, no need to roll to hit.

The BRB absolutely does not define 'no ability' of ballistic skill (value 0) to disallow all shooting attacks - its just that if you look on the ballistic skill table, 0 is not listed so you could not hit - IF you had to roll to hit - which shriek does not.

The fluff supports it and the rules support it.

If you have not ability, you can not perform anything related to that ability.

You may not use any bolters. you may not cast any witchfires, none. nothing at all. you have no ability...

This is also backed up by the Snap Shot rules.

BS0 means you may not use any shooting attacks.

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire, which is a shooting attack.

 DeathReaper wrote:

If you have not ability, you can not perform anything related to that ability.

You may not use any bolters. you may not cast any witchfires, none. nothing at all. you have no ability...

This is also backed up by the Snap Shot rules.

BS0 means you may not use any shooting attacks.

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire, which is a shooting attack.

Under Zero-level Characteristics it defines what 'no ability' means in the second paragraph for Weapon Skill, Attacks, Armour Save, Strength, Toughness or Wounds. But provides no definition for Ballistic Skill - which means anyone creating one is trying to define their intent but it is not RAW.

You're second point about not shooting with ballistic skill 0 is in the context of snap shots only.

from the BRB under snap shots:

The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with
Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when units make Overwatch shots. If a model is
forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted
as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not
shoot).

You can see in the context of where it is written it only applies to snap shots and is not a blanket RAW rule to shooting with Ballistic skill 0 in other cases.

There is only a RAI explanation for not shooting shriek with BS0 - not a RAW one. And there are many RAI arguments for allowing to shoot it as well.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
@Charistoph

pistols, plasma, cannons - all of those things require skill to aim and hit a target - i.e. ballistic skill - you added lascannons and lasguns and other beams - still require skill to aim and understandably require ballistic skill to hit.

The shriek has been FAQed to auto-hit, no need to roll to hit.

The BRB absolutely does not define 'no ability' of ballistic skill (value 0) to disallow all shooting attacks - its just that if you look on the ballistic skill table, 0 is not listed so you could not hit - IF you had to roll to hit - which shriek does not.

The fluff supports it and the rules support it.

That's "true" for all of the Auto-Hit abilities

 chaosmarauder wrote:

The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with
Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when units make Overwatch shots. If a model is
forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted
as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not
shoot).

You can see in the context of where it is written it only applies to snap shots and is not a blanket RAW rule to shooting with Ballistic skill 0 in other cases.

As I've already stated, there's a second possible context for that. It is also possible that the paragraph states what happens during snap shots, unless its BS is already lower than 1 (aka BS0) and just re-explains what happens in that case.

In other words, it could be that the bracketed text is just a reminder that BS0 units still can't shoot, and that Snap Shots being at BS1 doesn't let them Snap Shoot. I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, because it should be answered more specifically, but to me it only makes sense that the bracketed text is so bracketed for this reason (of just re-explaining something that already is, just like the use of this bracket here, as I've already stated all of this).

EDIT: And remember, everyone here seems to agree that whether or not this is RAW, we're all HIWPI is the same; Yes, go ahead and use that Psychic Skriek with the Patriarch.

 Yarium wrote:


As I've already stated, there's a second possible context for that. It is also possible that the paragraph states what happens during snap shots, unless its BS is already lower than 1 (aka BS0) and just re-explains what happens in that case.

Perhaps, but without an actual phrase for the bracketed portion to reference, RAW it would actually require an Errata to make it valid. (By adding the definition for no ability for ballistic skill)

I don't have the Patriarch so I have no personal view of this, just RAW rules lawyering cause I'm bored at work.

Personally I think the best RAI/HIWPI argument was an older one - the mini game with the deathwatch and Patriarch/Gene steal cult had an ability for the Patriarch to psychic shriek in it. Thats my favorite RAI proof.

ERRATA
40K RULEBOOK Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of the first paragraph: ‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek); where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically.’

BS0, snap shots, zero-level stats etc are all irrelevant. This one Errata in the FAQ says that the Genestealer Patriarch can shoot Psychic Shriek because it doesn't roll to hit. It's not a blast, it's not a beam, it's not a template: Psychic Shriek is it's own thing that is an exception to the Witchfire rules.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
@Charistoph

pistols, plasma, cannons - all of those things require skill to aim and hit a target - i.e. ballistic skill - you added lascannons and lasguns and other beams - still require skill to aim and understandably require ballistic skill to hit.

The shriek has been FAQed to auto-hit, no need to roll to hit.

The BRB absolutely does not define 'no ability' of ballistic skill (value 0) to disallow all shooting attacks - its just that if you look on the ballistic skill table, 0 is not listed so you could not hit - IF you had to roll to hit - which shriek does not.

The fluff supports it and the rules support it.

You are using real-world terms to justify a case that involves in game definitions that have been quoted to you.

Templates also do not require a Roll To Hit to aim and hit a target. Blasts and Barrage do not require a Roll To Hit to aim and hit a target.

The BRB definitely states that BS 0 has no ability to use anything connect to this stat. What is BS defined as, again?

Now, unless you can provide definitive proof that "no ability" equals "uses but automatically miss" instead, I'm going to have to stick to the definitions provided by the game in its several locations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ixi_DUCK_ixi wrote:

ERRATA
40K RULEBOOK Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of the first paragraph: ‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek); where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically.’

BS0, snap shots, zero-level stats etc are all irrelevant. This one Errata in the FAQ says that the Genestealer Patriarch can shoot Psychic Shriek because it doesn't roll to hit. It's not a blast, it's not a beam, it's not a template: Psychic Shriek is it's own thing that is an exception to the Witchfire rules.

Incorrect on several levels.

Snap Shots cannot be fired with weapons that automatically hit. This is before Roll To-Hit, so is relevant.

Zero-level stats indicate an inability to use whatever is connected to it, such as BS with shooting. This is before Roll To-Hit, so is relevant.

If it stated, "regardless of BS", you would have a case, but it does not.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

If you have not ability, you can not perform anything related to that ability.

You may not use any bolters. you may not cast any witchfires, none. nothing at all. you have no ability...

This is also backed up by the Snap Shot rules.

BS0 means you may not use any shooting attacks.

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire, which is a shooting attack.

Under Zero-level Characteristics it defines what 'no ability' means in the second paragraph for Weapon Skill, Attacks, Armour Save, Strength, Toughness or Wounds. But provides no definition for Ballistic Skill - which means anyone creating one is trying to define their intent but it is not RAW.

You're second point about not shooting with ballistic skill 0 is in the context of snap shots only.

from the BRB under snap shots:

The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with
Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when units make Overwatch shots. If a model is
forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted
as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not
shoot).

You can see in the context of where it is written it only applies to snap shots and is not a blanket RAW rule to shooting with Ballistic skill 0 in other cases.

There is only a RAI explanation for not shooting shriek with BS0 - not a RAW one. And there are many RAI arguments for allowing to shoot it as well.

Your arguments are incorrect.

RAW a BS of 0 means they have "No ability whatsoever in that field"

Why are you trying to have a model with a BS 0 use an ability in that field if they have "no ability whatsoever in that field"

RAW, a model with BS 0 can not make shooting attacks.

P.S. the second paragraph for Weapon Skill, Attacks, Armour Save, Strength, Toughness or Wounds are all examples. If you have a WS of 0 you can not strike blows. that is one of the examples. Inferring from that example, a model with a BS 0 would then not be able to use shooting attacks.

OK so if we are talking RAW, no where in the rulebook does it actually say that anything that automatically hits has to use its BS. I do not see that rule. Those of you claiming it can't shoot an ability that automatically hits because its BS0 need to actually show where it says it cant do so in the rulebook. Because the quoted information NEVER says that an ability that automatically hits ever uses its ballistic skill in any way. BS0 is NOT a snapshot, period. Its also not a template, its an ability that automatically hits. AUTOMATICALLY. Until the rule that counter acts automatic is shown, it DOES automatically hit with the power.

Ah, this reminds me of why Zogwart was total buns in the 6th edition. He had witchfires, but BS0, meaning he could never actually use his psychic powers.

In reference to the BS0 and how it interacts with Snap Fire, I think that's a flawed argument. It doesn't actually describe how BS0 interacts with shooting attacks under normal conditions. Only during a subphase in which models are forced to BS1 if they are higher than BS1. It basically is saying BS0 models stay at BS0 (They don't gain accuracy) and are unable to fire snapshots.

Under the new FAQ, it seems that a BS0 model can use Shriek and auto hit under normal conditions (Due to the ruling on how such attacks now work), but if it would be required to snap shoot for any reason, it can't. Against a flyer or something, it becomes odd.

I'd rule that Psy Shriek will hit, because the rules for Psy Shriek say it auto hits. A specific rule beating the basic rule. So they could Shriek a flyer, auto hit, and roll to damage as usual. Just HIWPI, though I suppose we should ask the FB page as we'll just go in circles here.

(Though this question seems very situational, as only firing at flyers would 'force' a snap shot with a psychic power...or unless somehow BS is dropped to 0 through a game effect...and maybe invisible...hmmm)

Dyslexican32 wrote:OK so if we are talking RAW, no where in the rulebook does it actually say that anything that automatically hits has to use its BS. I do not see that rule. Those of you claiming it can't shoot an ability that automatically hits because its BS0 need to actually show where it says it cant do so in the rulebook. Because the quoted information NEVER says that an ability that automatically hits ever uses its ballistic skill in any way. BS0 is NOT a snapshot, period. Its also not a template, its an ability that automatically hits. AUTOMATICALLY. Until the rule that counter acts automatic is shown, it DOES automatically hit with the power.

No where does it state that anything that automatically hits can be used when it is BS 0. Simply put, the ability to hit automatically is great, but only if you can initiate the situation in the first place. BS is the ability to shoot. A BS 0 means you have no ability to shoot. No ability to shoot, no ability to hit, automatically or otherwise.

Yes, BS 0 is not a Snap Shot, it is worse than a Snap Shot. You can still fire a Heavy Weapon at BS 1. You cannot at BS 0.

Melevolence wrote:In reference to the BS0 and how it interacts with Snap Fire, I think that's a flawed argument. It doesn't actually describe how BS0 interacts with shooting attacks under normal conditions. Only during a subphase in which models are forced to BS1 if they are higher than BS1. It basically is saying BS0 models stay at BS0 (They don't gain accuracy) and are unable to fire snapshots.

Of course it cannot shot. It cannot shoot in the first place. If they could shoot before, then why would this statement be needed?

Melevolence wrote:Under the new FAQ, it seems that a BS0 model can use Shriek and auto hit under normal conditions (Due to the ruling on how such attacks now work), but if it would be required to snap shoot for any reason, it can't. Against a flyer or something, it becomes odd.

But it has nothing to do with that judgement. Nothing in there was regarding if it couldn't be initiated in the first place, which is what BS 0 causes.

 Charistoph wrote:

Tonberry7 wrote:Templates and blasts aren't like Psychic Shriek because you still use BS re scatter. Where does it say that BS0 absolutely excludes making a shooting attack?

I don't remember Templates Scattering, and not all Blasts are affected by BS. But still, BS 0 means no ability to Shoot. This is reinforced by the Snap Shot rule that someone previously quoted.

Snap Shots
Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots – opportunistic bursts of fire ‘snapped’ off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when units make Overwatch shots. If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

Sorry but these rules you have quoted are in regard to Snap Shots. Nothing you have said proves conclusively that a Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek.

If you have no ability, and you use an ability, have you complied with the rule? Simple yes or no.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Sorry but these rules you have quoted are in regard to Snap Shots. Nothing you have said proves conclusively that a Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek.

It was a reference, a reinforcement, as I stated. Now, can you demonstrate that BS does not provide the ability to Shoot according to its own definition?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you have no ability, and you use an ability, have you complied with the rule? Simple yes or no.

100% this.

No ability = can not shoot.

If you have BS 0 you cannot make shooting attacks, even if they do not roll to hit or automatically hit. Those are still shooting attacks, which you cannot do if you have BS 0.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Sorry but these rules you have quoted are in regard to Snap Shots. Nothing you have said proves conclusively that a Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek.

It was a reference, a reinforcement, as I stated. Now, can you demonstrate that BS does not provide the ability to Shoot according to its own definition?

A reinforcement of what? Your opinion? I agree that if you're BS0 in most cases you can't shoot as if nothing else you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 to hit. It may well be that they intended an outright prohibition on shooting with BS0 but I think Psychic Shriek is a special enough case that currently leaves things open to interpretation. So I can see your argument and it could be correct in this case but to be fair iirc you haven't had the greatest record in rules interpretations.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Sorry but these rules you have quoted are in regard to Snap Shots. Nothing you have said proves conclusively that a Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek.

It was a reference, a reinforcement, as I stated. Now, can you demonstrate that BS does not provide the ability to Shoot according to its own definition?

A reinforcement of what? Your opinion? I agree that if you're BS0 in most cases you can't shoot as if nothing else you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 to hit. It may well be that they intended an outright prohibition on shooting with BS0 but I think Psychic Shriek is a special enough case that currently leaves things open to interpretation. So I can see your argument and it could be correct in this case but to be fair iirc you haven't had the greatest record in rules interpretations.

The rule literally says that if you have a 0, you lack any ability whatsever in that regard. You lack the basic ability to perform shooting attacks at BS0. There is no "in most cases" when you say "any ability whatsoever", it leaves no room at all.
And the To-Hit table simply doesn't a "7" since the actual rule is "here is a table, use it for comparing your roll to your BS". There is literally no BS0 entry in the table, and the "7 minus BS equals ToHit" is not the rule, just a "helping rule of thumb".

And just because GW overrules their rules as written - as they've done in multiple instances in the FAQ - doesn't mean a literal interpretation of the rules was wrong - it simply wasn't the intention of the author. The INTENTION with BS0 Witchfires is clear - at least for the Patriarch - to everyone: Yes, you should be able to cast it. It's HIWPI, but it's not what the rules say right now.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
A reinforcement of what? Your opinion? I agree that if you're BS0 in most cases you can't shoot as if nothing else you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 to hit. It may well be that they intended an outright prohibition on shooting with BS0 but I think Psychic Shriek is a special enough case that currently leaves things open to interpretation. So I can see your argument and it could be correct in this case but to be fair iirc you haven't had the greatest record in rules interpretations.

It has already been stated it several times by now since that post you quoted. It is a reinforcement of the the definition of the BS characteristic AND the zero-level characteristic rule working in conjunction to deny the ability to even make Shooting Attacks before a Roll To Hit can happen. It has nothing to do with the ability to "roll a 7 on a D6 to hit".

And be careful what statements you make about a person's "record in rules interpretations". It could be considered trolling, especially when you ignore what else a person has already stated in that thread.

This is a situation in which the faq has caused a problem.

Under witchfire rules it states that all witchfire powers must roll to hit unless they are a template that hit automatically.

The psychic shriek power requires you to target a unit implying a to hit rule is required.

The to hit chart has no option for BS0 therefore a BS0 character cannot use it.

The faq has said that it auto hits which bypasses the rules for wutchfire powers requiring a to hit roll.

It is possible that the faq (being a 1st draft) may have made a mistake but psychic shriek is deliberately a witchfire power and not a malediction or nova.

It is therefore clear that a jink prevents its use however a BS0 character (based exclusively on the faq) has no need to roll to hit because it auto hits. Ballistic skill is used exclusively in this game to roll to hit. If a power does not need to hit it disregards the restriction of BS0.

INcorrect, as already shown

You have no ability to shoot. How are you then using such an ability to make a shooting attack?

 nurgle86 wrote:
This is a situation in which the faq has caused a problem.

Under witchfire rules it states that all witchfire powers must roll to hit unless they are a template that hit automatically.

The psychic shriek power requires you to target a unit implying a to hit rule is required.

The to hit chart has no option for BS0 therefore a BS0 character cannot use it.

The faq has said that it auto hits which bypasses the rules for wutchfire powers requiring a to hit roll.

It is possible that the faq (being a 1st draft) may have made a mistake but psychic shriek is deliberately a witchfire power and not a malediction or nova.

It is therefore clear that a jink prevents its use however a BS0 character (based exclusively on the faq) has no need to roll to hit because it auto hits. Ballistic skill is used exclusively in this game to roll to hit. If a power does not need to hit it disregards the restriction of BS0.

It's still a shooting attack that doesn't require a ToHit roll as it automatically hits. You simply cannot perform a shooting attack, even if it would automatically hit. You might have a super-intelligent smart missile that's literally fire&forget and never misses it's target, but if you have no means to actually launch it, you won't be able to use it. Same applies to the psychic / BS0 thing.
Is it stupid? Sure.
Is it not what was intended? Sure.
But it's the rules as they're written.

Just houserule it. If we're lucky they'll include something like "Witchfires that do not require a ToHit roll can be manifested and resolved without the use of the Ballistic Skill, so BS0 will not prevent you from using Psychic Shriek. Having to snapshot also doesn't affect such powers (Or "Having to snapshot however prevents you from using such powers", whichever they intended.)

The problem here is the interpretation of the words 'no ability'. They are unfortunately vague enough to open to interpretation that no ability is read by some people as is not allowed to...

Instead of looking at it as no ability to shoot it should be looked at as no ability to hit.

Ballistic skill is the ability to hit something. Psychic shriek has been specified in the faq as not needing a to hit roll. Having no ability in hitting something but not being required to hit something equates to the power resolves as described.

It is a 1st draft so hopefully this can be cleared up in the final version but until then it would be imo clutching at straws rules lawyering to prevent the power from being resolved

 nurgle86 wrote:
The problem here is the interpretation of the words 'no ability'. They are unfortunately vague enough to open to interpretation that no ability is read by some people as is not allowed to...

Instead of looking at it as no ability to shoot it should be looked at as no ability to hit.

Ballistic skill is the ability to hit something. Psychic shriek has been specified in the faq as not needing a to hit roll. Having no ability in hitting something but not being required to hit something equates to the power resolves as described.

It is a 1st draft so hopefully this can be cleared up in the final version but until then it would be imo clutching at straws rules lawyering to prevent the power from being resolved

Not sure why you feel the need to insult people over a few rules. The people saying "RAW this isn't allowed" are mostly also saying "but HIWPI is that you are allowed to do it". Insisting that "having no ability whatsoever at hitting things" does not include "automatically hitting things" is the odd interpretation here, at least to me. And as I said - I'm fine with you playing it that way in this instance as it's highly likely that that's what GW intended, so please, calm down .

nekooni wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
The problem here is the interpretation of the words 'no ability'. They are unfortunately vague enough to open to interpretation that no ability is read by some people as is not allowed to...

Instead of looking at it as no ability to shoot it should be looked at as no ability to hit.

Ballistic skill is the ability to hit something. Psychic shriek has been specified in the faq as not needing a to hit roll. Having no ability in hitting something but not being required to hit something equates to the power resolves as described.

It is a 1st draft so hopefully this can be cleared up in the final version but until then it would be imo clutching at straws rules lawyering to prevent the power from being resolved

Not sure why you feel the need to insult people over a few rules. The people saying "RAW this isn't allowed" are mostly also saying "but HIWPI is that you are allowed to do it". Insisting that "having no ability whatsoever at hitting things" does not include "automatically hitting things" is the odd interpretation here, at least to me. And as I said - I'm fine with you playing it that way in this instance as it's highly likely that that's what GW intended, so please, calm down .

I'm really sorry if you thought I was insulting anyone. I did not intend to include an insult in any of my words and if you thought it was an insult then I hope you re-read what I wrote because I can't see what I wrote as an insult.

I'm also very calm. I'm new to this forum so you won't really know me from what I write but It is NEVER my intention to insult people who are discussing their views openly.

I was suggesting that the words leave an interpretation open and I think that interpretation is wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you have no ability, and you use an ability, have you complied with the rule? Simple yes or no.

Don't hold your breath getting an answer. We should not be discussing this from the point of view of the BS0 Patriarch, which clearly is an oversight on GW's part. It has already been established many times that BS0 prevents shooting attacks and a witchfire is a shooting attack, even those ones without a profile.

As the topic was psychic shriek and snapshots, there doesn't seem to be a definite answer yet. Are GW's FAQs complete now or still in draft? As snapshots are part of the Shooting domain, thus also affecting Witchfires, I'm not sure how to go from there. This is more of a case that could I hit a flyer with them or not?

On one side is the requirement to snapshot at flyers, which you can't do with something that automatically hits.
On another side is the ruling that no to hit roll is needed.

I'd go carefully here and not make the profile-less witchfires any more powerful and can see rules supporting this view rather than the other one.

rules lawyering is a bad phrase to use.

"no ability" is pretty conclusive. You have no ability to do anything with shooting at all.

Naw wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you have no ability, and you use an ability, have you complied with the rule? Simple yes or no.

Don't hold your breath getting an answer. We should not be discussing this from the point of view of the BS0 Patriarch, which clearly is an oversight on GW's part. It has already been established many times that BS0 prevents shooting attacks and a witchfire is a shooting attack, even those ones without a profile.

As the topic was psychic shriek and snapshots, there doesn't seem to be a definite answer yet. Are GW's FAQs complete now or still in draft? As snapshots are part of the Shooting domain, thus also affecting Witchfires, I'm not sure how to go from there. This is more of a case that could I hit a flyer with them or not?

On one side is the requirement to snapshot at flyers, which you can't do with something that automatically hits.
On another side is the ruling that no to hit roll is needed.

I'd go carefully here and not make the profile-less witchfires any more powerful and can see rules supporting this view rather than the other one.

But that's easily resolved.

Witchfires without a profile are shooting attacks that do not require a to-hit roll as they hit automatically
shooting attacks that do not require a to-hit roll as they hit automatically cannot be used when snapfiring

therefore: witchfires cannot snapfire.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
rules lawyering is a bad phrase to use.

If that was an isnulting phrase i'm sorry. I come from a CCG MtG background where thats a term we regularly use.

 nurgle86 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
rules lawyering is a bad phrase to use.

If that was an isnulting phrase i'm sorry. I come from a CCG MtG background where thats a term we regularly use.

Welcome to the forums nurgle86! Before Wizos (or perhaps Gleemax...) nuked the WotC forums, I had participated or at least lurked on the Rules forums there. I really enjoyed the atmosphere there, but I think it was because MtG has a very tight rules-set that expertly describes all possible game states and exactly what happens in each one, ensuring a uniform play experience. Sometimes people would argue the rules on that forum, but it was very clearly black and white "yes" or "no", and often was resolved when someone found the right rules references. On the rare occassion that this wasn't the case, the rule would then be brought up in the Rules Templating forum, governed over by qualified judges, and the question of "should this be a rule?" would take place. There were numerous times where the game's rules were actually changed based on these discoveries. When someone just repeated the same argument over and over, despite a clear rule being given, we called them trolls, and that was that.

However...

Currently, and for the forseeable future, Warhammer doesn't have this. These rules are written in both hard rules and stylistic languages. This works fine for the most simple scenarios, but starts to break down when you start zeroing in on specific corner cases. This thread being a perfect example; what does BS0 really mean? There's only one place in the whole codex that outright states what happens with BS0, but that wording can be read in two different ways (with the bracketed text being entirely contextual in one way, or entirely general in another way), with no definite means of saying with 100% confidence which is the correct way. We don't have a Rules Templating forum that could have any authority either. Even if we did, the rules would be unlikely to have an Errata made for them (though GW may be having a change of heart on this now!). As such, a rules debate here often forums into an endless spiral. One side says "no, this is right, because of this", and the other side says "no, this is right this other way, because of this", and then they just scream that same argument back and forth until the topic gets locked.

Ultimately, your approach of being level-headed is a good one, and I didn't read anything insulting in what you wrote, but it is the internet, and the tone of a post can easily be misinterpreted.

@ Yarium - well said!

On the GW facebook FAQ, under Witchfire FAQ specifically, several people have asked them to clarify this, using the Patriarch/Shriek as an example. Lets see if they do in the final draft.

This conversation has very much gone down the line of "can BS=0 fire or not" rather than the topic of Psychic Shriek and snapshots.

Back on to this, there appears to be a confusion in this excerpt from the FAQ: "no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically". We know that "weapons that do not roll to hit" roll is defined in the rulebook, and such weapons implicitly cannot fire snap shots. But the second part of that excerpt - "hits automatically", is confusing. This is because weapons that do not roll to hit (such as template, blast etc) do not hit automatically. But this new FAQ says that these witchfires do.

Does "hits automatically" therefore trump the snapshots rule?

Warhanna wrote:
This conversation has very much gone down the line of "can BS=0 fire or not" rather than the topic of Psychic Shriek and snapshots.

Back on to this, there appears to be a confusion in this excerpt from the FAQ: "no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically". We know that "weapons that do not roll to hit" roll is defined in the rulebook, and such weapons implicitly cannot fire snap shots. But the second part of that excerpt - "hits automatically", is confusing. This is because weapons that do not roll to hit (such as template, blast etc) do not hit automatically. But this new FAQ says that these witchfires do.

Does "hits automatically" therefore trump the snapshots rule?

Witchfires wrote:Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

Nova wrote:A nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units (...)

Blast Markers and Templates wrote:To work out the number of hits, you normally need to hold the template or blast marker over an enemy unit or a particular point on the battlefield, and then look underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie partially or completely underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker.

There is no To-Hit roll, in other words you automatically hit anything that's under the blast / template once it's been placed (=after scatter, for templates).

Warhanna wrote:
Back on to this, there appears to be a confusion in this excerpt from the FAQ: "no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically". We know that "weapons that do not roll to hit" roll is defined in the rulebook, and such weapons implicitly cannot fire snap shots. But the second part of that excerpt - "hits automatically", is confusing. This is because weapons that do not roll to hit (such as template, blast etc) do not hit automatically. But this new FAQ says that these witchfires do.

Does "hits automatically" therefore trump the snapshots rule?

How can "hits automatically" work when "cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot" is applied?

If you are trying to shoot an automatically hitting Weapon that was out of range, would it still hit? No, because it cannot shoot.

We are looking at this in the same vein, automatically hitting means nothing if you cannot proceed to the step in which Rolling To Hit happens.

Review the Shooting Phase steps and note that shooting takes place right before or as part of Rolling To Hit. Everything else before that point is setting up the shot. The very last things mentioned before Rolling To Hit is that if these qualifications are met, they can shoot.

There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

RAW? Both.

At BS0 you cannot perform shooting attacks at all.
While snapshooting you cannot perform shooting attacks that hit automatically.

Witchfires are shooting attacks, even if they hit automatically.

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

The next logical step is to present the question on the Facebook page, "if psychic shriek hits automatically, and shots that hit automatically can not be fired as snap shots, does that mean that a psycher on a bike who jinks and is thus forced to fire snap-shots is unable to cast psychic shriek?"

Additionally, "if psychic shriek is a shooting attack that hits automatically and a genestealer patriarch is BS 0, does this mean that the patriarch is unable to cast the only primaris power he has access to, since having a characteristic of 0 prevents you from performing actions that use that characteristic?"

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

It says literally that you have no ability whatsover in that area. How is this not well defined?

 NightHowler wrote:
The next logical step is to present the question on the Facebook page, "if psychic shriek hits automatically, and shots that hit automatically can not be fired as snap shots, does that mean that a psycher on a bike who jinks and is thus forced to fire snap-shots is unable to cast psychic shriek?"

Additionally, "if psychic shriek is a shooting attack that hits automatically and a genestealer patriarch is BS 0, does this mean that the patriarch is unable to cast the only primaris power he has access to, since having a characteristic of 0 prevents you from performing actions that use that characteristic?"

Please do this for us!

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

No abiility whatsoever

You are claiming an ability in that area. Yet you have none.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

What do you think "no ability" means in this context then? That they can shoot but are not allowed to roll dice? It's not unclear. If you reference the shooting table what result with d6 makes you hit with a Ballistic Skill of 0?

nekooni wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

It says literally that you have no ability whatsover in that area. How is this not well defined?

This is an easy question to answer. An infant has no ability to shoot guns. An explosion hits everything around it automatically. If an infant explodes, everything around it gets hit automatically even though it has no ability to shoot.

A patriarch has no ability to shoot. A patriarch has a psychic ability that hits automatically but is considered a "psychic shooting attack."

So you have one rule telling you that you can't even roll to hit and another rule telling you that you don't need to roll to hit.

If you can't see how this needs an FAQ then you aren't really trying to communicate, you're just wanting others to agree with you.

I don't even play Tyranids and I think this should be cleared up.

It would be good to get it cleared up, because there is a good chance they INTEND for the brood lord to be able to use the power

The rules do not allow this currently

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It would be good to get it cleared up, because there is a good chance they INTEND for the brood lord to be able to use the power

The rules do not allow this currently

agree completely that it should be cleared up.

 NightHowler wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

It says literally that you have no ability whatsover in that area. How is this not well defined?

This is an easy question to answer. An infant has no ability to shoot guns. An explosion hits everything around it automatically. If an infant explodes, everything around it gets hit automatically even though it has no ability to shoot.

A patriarch has no ability to shoot. A patriarch has a psychic ability that hits automatically but is considered a "psychic shooting attack."

So you have one rule telling you that you can't even roll to hit and another rule telling you that you don't need to roll to hit.

However the 0 stat line doesn't tell you you can't roll to hit. it tells you that you lack the basic ability to perform a shooting attack, which is VERY different.

If you can't see how this needs an FAQ then you aren't really trying to communicate, you're just wanting others to agree with you.

I don't even play Tyranids and I think this should be cleared up.

The thing here is that your example is completely misleading.

Psychic Shooting Attacks and other Shooting Attacks are active abilities of a model. The Psychic one automatically hits.
If you lack the basic ability to perform a Shooting Attack - by being BS0 - you cannot use a Psychic Shooting attack either.

Launching an unguided bomb and launching a smart bomb (lets assume it has 100% accuracy = automatic hit) are active abilities of a plane. The Smart Bomb automatically hits.
But if you have no way to actually launch any kind of bomb, you also lack the ability to launch the smart bomb despite it always hitting it's mark.

Can you choose a target if you have BS=0?

 NightHowler wrote:

This is an easy question to answer. An infant has no ability to shoot guns. An explosion hits everything around it automatically. If an infant explodes, everything around it gets hit automatically even though it has no ability to shoot.

Besides being in extremely poor taste, an exploding baby still isn't shooting.

But this still doesn't associate a Corpse Explosion with a Shooting Attack as defined in the rules.

 NightHowler wrote:
So you have one rule telling you that you can't even roll to hit and another rule telling you that you don't need to roll to hit.

It has been asked, but where does BS state that it is only defined as how well you Roll To Hit?

Both WS and BS represent the skill in either Melee Attacks or Shooting Attacks. WS also is a skill in defending from Melee Attacks. What happens offensively with WS 0?

I'm not arguing that you can use psychic shriek with BS0. I'm arguing that, because it's confusing it should be addressed in the FAQ. To say it's clear RAW implies that someone who has never played 40k could pick up the books and know exactly what to do. This is not the case. If I gave my 40k books to your mom would she be able to answer whether or not a patriarch can use psychic shriek? I know most people's moms would not. Maybe you're mom is a lawyer and life-long 40k player with 400,000 points worth of models from every army, but even then, she may find this situation unclear. And if that's the case, it should be addressed in an FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because, wait for it, the question may be frequently asked.

The only thing Ballistic skill says, is that it gets easier to hit things with shooting attacks the better it is.

From this we can understand that it gets harder to hit with shooting attacks the lower it gets.

Zero level characteristics tells us 0 is no ability whatsoever....then goes on to define what this means for every stat EXCEPT ballistic skill.

Witchfires are shooting attacks, and with no profile now automatically hit the target, no roll is necessary.

There is no rule, at all, that says, one way or the other, that you cannot make a shooting attack if your ballistic skill is 0. We can only guess their intent.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
The only thing Ballistic skill says, is that it gets easier to hit things with shooting attacks the better it is.

From this we can understand that it gets harder to hit with shooting attacks the lower it gets.

Zero level characteristics tells us 0 is no ability whatsoever....then goes on to define what this means for every stat EXCEPT ballistic skill.

Witchfires are shooting attacks, and with no profile now automatically hit the target, no roll is necessary.

There is no rule, at all, that says, one way or the other, that you cannot make a shooting attack if your ballistic skill is 0. We can only guess their intent.

WS is also described in the same manner. And does having WS 0 cause you to automatically miss all of your Attacks?

A model doesn't need a BS at all to hit with an power that hits automatically. The same way that a weapon that automatically wounds can have a 0 or - listed as its strength. Can a BS0 Model fire a weapon normally? no, however the wording of Automatic CLEARLY overrides this in the exact same way it does for damage.

Any.ability.whatsoever.

@nekooni

'any ability whatsoever' and 'hits automatically' contradict each other.

an FAQ is needed, otherwise rolloff if there is an argument in a game - I don't think this discussion can go any further

 chaosmarauder wrote:
@nekooni

'any ability whatsoever' and 'hits automatically' contradict each other.

an FAQ is needed, otherwise rolloff if there is an argument in a game - I don't think this discussion can go any further

The weapon would hit automatically if you knew how to shoot with it, but as you have no ability in that area, you can't fire. Thus, it won't be able to cause automatic hits either.

 Dyslexican32 wrote:
A model doesn't need a BS at all to hit with an power that hits automatically. The same way that a weapon that automatically wounds can have a 0 or - listed as its strength. Can a BS0 Model fire a weapon normally? no, however the wording of Automatic CLEARLY overrides this in the exact same way it does for damage.

Hits Automatically <> Shoots Automatically. Shooting, hitting and wounding are separate things, as are glancing, penetrating, pinning and removing from play.
Ability in one does not grant ability in another.

 Dyslexican32 wrote:
A model doesn't need a BS at all to hit with an power that hits automatically. The same way that a weapon that automatically wounds can have a 0 or - listed as its strength. Can a BS0 Model fire a weapon normally? no, however the wording of Automatic CLEARLY overrides this in the exact same way it does for damage.

WS is also described in the same manner as BS. And does having WS 0 cause you to automatically miss all of your Attacks?

 chaosmarauder wrote:
@nekooni

'any ability whatsoever' and 'hits automatically' contradict each other.

an FAQ is needed, otherwise rolloff if there is an argument in a game - I don't think this discussion can go any further

It's not a contradiction, see my previous post with the smart bomb example.

There is nothing to roll off. We can agree to houserule it, that's it. Doesn't make a difference on the table, but to this discussion.

AGAIN I restate, please ACTUALLY quote where it SAYS you can not shoot with a weapon when you are BS0? IT DOESN'T! There is no rule in the rule book that says anywhere that you cant use a weapon because you are BS 0. I don't even own this model, nor do I own nids, I have no vested interest in this. However some of the interpretation of RAW makes me really question the reading comprehension on here.

WS is also described in the same manner as BS. And does having WS 0 cause you to automatically miss all of your Attacks?

Yes, you automatically miss your attacks with WS0, the same way you automatically miss with BS0! That is absolutely the standard rule. HOWEVER the automatic hit, supersedes the automatic miss, because the specific always overrides the standard. That is the way rules are always written! Even GW writes their rules that way!

Hits Automatically <> Shoots Automatically. Shooting, hitting and wounding are separate things, as are glancing, penetrating, pinning and removing from play.
Ability in one does not grant ability in another.

Of course they are separate rules, im not sure what you are trying to prove in this way. The statement wasn't that these rules function the same, it was to show how again a specific rule always overrides the standard. For example, Armor bane/flesh bane don't wound or roll on the weapon damage chart, because the specific rule supersedes the standard of whatever the weapons strength is on its profile. Another would be Kharn, He has a WS7 (I think, don't have him in front of me) However he always hits on 2s and hits friendly models in his unit on 1s. As standard he would need to hit on whatever his WS vs the opposition models WS is. And can never hit friendly models however his rule specifically succeeds this. I only point these things out because clearly if you follow the very flawed logic that you are putting forward, that AGAIN is not supported by any rule in the game, then these two examples don't work and are superseded by the standard game rules. They don't "contradict" each other, one VERY clearly succeeds the other.

The weapon would hit automatically if you knew how to shoot with it, but as you have no ability in that area, you can't fire. Thus, it won't be able to cause automatic hits either.

Again you can technically still shoot with the weapon, you just cant hit. Which is where the term automatic overrules the standard rule.

 Dyslexican32 wrote:
AGAIN I restate, please ACTUALLY quote where it SAYS you can not shoot with a weapon when you are BS0?

"...no ability..."

if "no ability" doesn't mean "can't shoot," what does it mean? It has to mean SOMETHING. What is it?

 Dyslexican32 wrote:

WS is also described in the same manner as BS. And does having WS 0 cause you to automatically miss all of your Attacks?

Yes, you automatically miss your attacks with WS0, the same way you automatically miss with BS0! That is absolutely the standard rule. HOWEVER the automatic hit, supersedes the automatic miss, because the specific always overrides the standard. That is the way rules are always written! Even GW writes their rules that way!

Incorrect. You do not automatically miss with WS 0.

A model with Weapon Skill ‘0’ is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows.

WS 0 does not automatically miss, you cannot even Attack with it. BS 0 operates with the same description. No ability with WS means no Attacks. No ability with BS means no Attacks.

Not exactly rocket surgery.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Dyslexican32 wrote:

A model with Weapon Skill ‘0’ is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows.

WS 0 does not automatically miss, you cannot even Attack with it. BS 0 operates with the same description. No ability with WS means no Attacks. No ability with BS means no Attacks.

Not exactly rocket surgery.

exactly... you dont need to list every little thing and what exactly it does no matter how miniscule it is... thats why we have examples... and the WS example is pretty straight forward.

FAQs are up for Genestealers .

I was wrong.

BS0 Genestealers AUTOMATICALLY HIT with psychic shriek.

It says BS0 can cast witchfires that don't require to-hit rolls. Snapshots apply to to-hit rolls. This makes me think a jinking psyker can cast Psychic Shriek, as there's no to-hit roll needed.

 BossJakadakk wrote:
It says BS0 can cast witchfires that don't require to-hit rolls. Snapshots apply to to-hit rolls. This makes me think a jinking psyker can cast Psychic Shriek, as there's no to-hit roll needed.

Completely different situation, as has already been addressed in this thread. Snapshot rules state you cannot fire a shooting attack that does not use BS as a snapshot. Regardless of whether they auto hit, there is a rule explicitly prohibiting shooting.

Also, snapshots shoot at BS1, so a BS0 ruling wouldn't be particularly relevant to them anyway.

Fhionnuisce wrote:

 BossJakadakk wrote:
It says BS0 can cast witchfires that don't require to-hit rolls. Snapshots apply to to-hit rolls. This makes me think a jinking psyker can cast Psychic Shriek, as there's no to-hit roll needed.

Completely different situation, as has already been addressed in this thread. Snapshot rules state you cannot fire a shooting attack that does not use BS as a snapshot. Regardless of whether they auto hit, there is a rule explicitly prohibiting shooting.

Ah yeah, thanks for the reminder.

Also, snapshots shoot at BS1, so a BS0 ruling wouldn't be particularly relevant to them anyway.

Yeah, my thinking was more following the "auto-hit" part. But that was addressed.

Genestealer Cults FAQ wrote:
Q: Can units with a Ballistic Skill of 0 (Patriarch Ghosar from Genestealer Cults, for example) successfully use witchfire psychic powers (like the Telepathy primaris power Psychic Shriek, for example)?
A: Yes, provided no actual To Hit roll is required.

I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

 JimOnMars wrote:
FAQs are up for Genestealers .

I was wrong.

BS0 Genestealers AUTOMATICALLY HIT with psychic shriek.

Yea they changed the rules there.

So many contradictions and rules changes with this FAQ.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Genestealer Cults FAQ wrote:
Q: Can units with a Ballistic Skill of 0 (Patriarch Ghosar from Genestealer Cults, for example) successfully use witchfire psychic powers (like the Telepathy primaris power Psychic Shriek, for example)?
A: Yes, provided no actual To Hit roll is required.

I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

Indeed

Makes me very optimistic that Thunderwolf Cavalry will all get S10 with thunder hammers and power fists.

Tonberry7 wrote:I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

Would you like to reword that so it doesn't seem like you are attacking everyone who disagrees with you?

Don't forget, this is the same FAQ that changes Battle Brothers to Allies of Convenience, too.

It also came from the same group that has contradicted itself three times with Imperial Knights, and changes Battle Brothers to a more 6th edition version of itself.

 Charistoph wrote:
...Don't forget, this is the same FAQ that changes Battle Brothers to Allies of Convenience, too.

It also came from the same group that has contradicted itself three times with Imperial Knights, and changes Battle Brothers to a more 6th edition version of itself.

I lose confidence in GW every time something new is posted because of this.


Edit:

P.S. Not that I had much to begin with

 Tonberry7 wrote:

I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

It's not really particularly 'convoluted' logic to suggest that a rule that says that models with BS0 can't make shooting attacks means that models with BS0 can't make shooting attacks...

Honestly, this one could have gone either way.

 Charistoph wrote:

Tonberry7 wrote:I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

Would you like to reword that so it doesn't seem like you are attacking everyone who disagrees with you?

Don't forget, this is the same FAQ that changes Battle Brothers to Allies of Convenience, too.

It also came from the same group that has contradicted itself three times with Imperial Knights, and changes Battle Brothers to a more 6th edition version of itself.

Not really. I'm sorry if you feel that my post was directed at you, or an attack in general. It wasn't. I'm just saying that I'm glad that the most obvious and straightforwards way of reading the RAW seems to be matching up with the RAI by GW, I don't think the promotion of tortuous theories on rules interpretations is helpful at all to new players in particular who might come here to learn more about the game. Although I do understand that some enjoy the debate for the sake of it, even to try and defend an untenable position.

I also will make no further comment on your record with rule interpretations at this time other than to apologise if I upset you with my previous observations on the matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

It's not really particularly 'convoluted' logic to suggest that a rule that says that models with BS0 can't make shooting attacks means that models with BS0 can't make shooting attacks...

Honestly, this one could have gone either way.

Yes that particular example was one of the less clear cut situations, I even agreed it was more open to interpretation back on page 3. That quote from myself above was more of a general observation about the FAQS so far as a whole.

Admittedly with the benefit of hindsight, I still think it was fairly clear that a Patriarch would be allowed to psychic Shriek even with BS0 as it doesn't need to roll to hit. But the argument is pretty much irrelevant now I suppose.

Saltfully they will fix the contradictions of the faqs before a final print is made.

 Tonberry7 wrote:


I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

They changed so many rules and contradicted themselves in that FAQ... so maybe your statement is not quite accurate...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

They changed so many rules and contradicted themselves in that FAQ... so maybe your statement is not quite accurate...

Until you remember that they are draft FAQs out for consultation, the aim of which is to iron out any further inconsistencies and misunderstandings. They may not end up 100% watertight but I for one think it's great to see GW putting in some effort to produce some solid and long overdue FAQs

 Tonberry7 wrote:


Admittedly with the benefit of hindsight, I still think it was fairly clear that a Patriarch would be allowed to psychic Shriek even with BS0 as it doesn't need to roll to hit. .

I agree that it was clear that he was supposed to be able to use it... But the better response in the FAQ in my opinion would have been to admit that they goofed and Errata him to BS1.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

They changed so many rules and contradicted themselves in that FAQ... so maybe your statement is not quite accurate...

Until you remember that they are draft FAQs out for consultation, the aim of which is to iron out any further inconsistencies and misunderstandings. They may not end up 100% watertight but I for one think it's great to see GW putting in some effort to produce some solid and long overdue FAQs

So the same goes for your Original statement...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


I'm glad to see most of these FAQs are confirming the common sense reading of the RAW over convoluted, tenuous and pedantic arguments.

They changed so many rules and contradicted themselves in that FAQ... so maybe your statement is not quite accurate...

Until you remember that they are draft FAQs out for consultation, the aim of which is to iron out any further inconsistencies and misunderstandings. They may not end up 100% watertight but I for one think it's great to see GW putting in some effort to produce some solid and long overdue FAQs

So the same goes for your Original statement...

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, if anything.

That your original statement is at odds with the fact theyre draft, whcih you even acknowledge

It isnt convoluted to say a model with no ability to shoot can suddenly gain an ability to shoot.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Not really. I'm sorry if you feel that my post was directed at you, or an attack in general. It wasn't. I'm just saying that I'm glad that the most obvious and straightforwards way of reading the RAW seems to be matching up with the RAI by GW, I don't think the promotion of tortuous theories on rules interpretations is helpful at all to new players in particular who might come here to learn more about the game. Although I do understand that some enjoy the debate for the sake of it, even to try and defend an untenable position.

I also will make no further comment on your record with rule interpretations at this time other than to apologise if I upset you with my previous observations on the matter.

Calling other people's interpretations, even in a general manner as "convoluted, tenuous and pedantic" can be seen as an attack on them, since they are the ones who are doing the actual interpretation and presenting of them.

And as nosferatu said, "It isnt convoluted to say a model with no ability to shoot can suddenly gain an ability to shoot."

nosferatu1001 wrote:
That your original statement is at odds with the fact theyre draft, whcih you even acknowledge

It isnt convoluted to say a model with no ability to shoot can suddenly gain an ability to shoot.

'No ability whatsoever' in ballistic skill is never defined in the BRB as not allowing to make shooting attacks - this was assumed/extrapolated from how the other characteristics were defined.

It was always in need of an FAQ since RAW did not define it.

Making a shooting attack requires some ability in the realm of shooting. That's plain reading.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Making a shooting attack requires some ability in the realm of shooting. That's plain reading.

Thats RAI not RAW.

RAW means it is defined with a mechanic/instructions on how to carry out the rule.

'no ability whatsoever' is very much not well defined enough and gives no clues as how that is implemented in the game rules-wise

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Thats RAI not RAW.

RAW means it is defined with a mechanic/instructions on how to carry out the rule.

'no ability whatsoever' is very much not well defined enough and gives no clues as how that is implemented in the game rules-wise

It does, however, leave BS0 off the To Hit, chart, and mentions in an aside in the Snap Shot rules that models with BS0 may not shoot.

Now, if only there was some way to give my Broodlord a template weapon or blast weapon...

 Charistoph wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Not really. I'm sorry if you feel that my post was directed at you, or an attack in general. It wasn't. I'm just saying that I'm glad that the most obvious and straightforwards way of reading the RAW seems to be matching up with the RAI by GW, I don't think the promotion of tortuous theories on rules interpretations is helpful at all to new players in particular who might come here to learn more about the game. Although I do understand that some enjoy the debate for the sake of it, even to try and defend an untenable position.

I also will make no further comment on your record with rule interpretations at this time other than to apologise if I upset you with my previous observations on the matter.

Calling other people's interpretations, even in a general manner as "convoluted, tenuous and pedantic" can be seen as an attack on them, since they are the ones who are doing the actual interpretation and presenting of them.

And as nosferatu said, "It isnt convoluted to say a model with no ability to shoot can suddenly gain an ability to shoot."

I beg to differ. It's an attack on the argument, not the poster, as per the tenets. And that particular interpretation (the Patriarch not being able to use Psychic Shriek) been proven wrong by the FAQ. Just because you were incorrect on this occasion is no cause to dress up the opposing viewpoints as personal attacks.

Time to drop it, guys. If you think a post is out of line, just report it and move on. Nothing productive is gained by dragging a thread of topic with an argument over whether or not a post was acceptable.

 insaniak wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Thats RAI not RAW.

RAW means it is defined with a mechanic/instructions on how to carry out the rule.

'no ability whatsoever' is very much not well defined enough and gives no clues as how that is implemented in the game rules-wise

It does, however, leave BS0 off the To Hit, chart, and mentions in an aside in the Snap Shot rules that models with BS0 may not shoot.

I agree.

I'd like to note that in these discussions it seems there is always a very strong opinion on one side of the argument or the other when really we should all be weighing both sides of the arguments equally. It would allow us to determine where an faq is required and where house rules are needed.

I think more civil discussions would yield better results overall. (I include myself in this)

And I agree there was a very strong argument that the RAI was showing that BS0 meant 'no shooting allowed'. But noone in that camp was yielding to the fact that there was also not a clear rule written for how to treat a model with BS0 when it came to automatic hits.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
And I agree there was a very strong argument that the RAI was showing that BS0 meant 'no shooting allowed'. But noone in that camp was yielding to the fact that there was also not a clear rule written for how to treat a model with BS0 when it came to automatic hits.

Only because you refuse to follow the logic of "if I can't launch an attack, it can't hit a thing, not even automatically". A super-intelligent smart bomb still has to be launched in order to hit, and at BS0 we're literally unable to open the bomb bay doors which would allow us to drop the bombs. Even 100% accuracy - "auto-hitting" - won't change that.
There's simply no need to specifically treat "automatic hits" when you're unable to perform any kind of attack that could automatically hit.

Well thats where your wrong. A SUPER smart bomb can probably open the bomb bay doors itself. The pilot just acts as a delivery system for a weapon thats overall special-ness allows for the extraordinary. And thats where I'm gonna put PS, a weapon with extraordinary abilities that include autofire and hits. The Partriarch just supplies delivery and payload. Just goofy reasoning

Kinda makes you question Snap Shots at Flyers now that a precedent of not needing an ability to shoot has been made.... I hope so anyway.




--edited to remove "tone"

Goobi2 wrote:
Well thats where your wrong. A SUPER smart bomb can probably open the bomb bay doors itself. The pilot just acts as a delivery system for a weapon thats overall special-ness allows for the extraordinary. And thats where I'm gonna put PS, a weapon with extraordinary abilities that include autofire and hits. The Partriarch just supplies delivery and payload.

Then the pilot isn't the one shooting it, is he? The bomb is doing the shooting.

Thats fine as long as he's the one that brings it there. As the wielder of the weapon with special rules that allow this autofire, he is "effectively" the firer.

Goobi2 wrote:
Thats fine as long as he's the one that brings it there. As the wielder of the weapon with special rules that allow this autofire, he is "effectively" the firer.

Now you are talking about autofire, which is not the same as autohit. And that's been part of the problem with a lot of the interpretations.that has been going on. People have been attributing "autohit" with "autofire".

 chaosmarauder wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Making a shooting attack requires some ability in the realm of shooting. That's plain reading.

Thats RAI not RAW.

RAW means it is defined with a mechanic/instructions on how to carry out the rule.

'no ability whatsoever' is very much not well defined enough and gives no clues as how that is implemented in the game rules-wise

Can you please tell me what I need to roll in d6 to be able to score a hit with a shooting attack and how does that not correlate with having no ability to shoot?

I am perfectly fine with their ruling that PS et others do not need to hit rolls.

Wasnt that on the table with a smart bomb opening its own doors? The concept of the analogy is still the same. Generally certain things should not be possible, but exceptions are made when conditions are met.

Smart bomb can open doors when pilot gets near enough to target. PS can fire when harnessed.

Now you are talking about something that contradicts the rules. The FAQ is not a clarification but a rule change to certain type of attacks.

Goobi2 wrote:
Smart bomb can open doors when pilot gets near enough to target. PS can fire when harnessed.

But Psychic Shriek doesn't state it fires itself, it still needs something else "shoot" it. It's not like the Necron Obelisk which generates a field in which things are damaged (or at least, capable of being damaged). It is an ability which must be actively used or "shot" by the possessor by definition of it being a Witchfire. And that is where BS 0 comes in to crap it up.

I havent ever said anything about always having been that way. I merely formed a very rough analogy to better help people grasp a concept of how a newly created special trait of a "weapon" can overcome the model's general inability.

He couldn't shoot, but now with his "super smart" weapon all he has to do is supply the ammo and it will take care of that for him.

Yes, the FAQ is what allowed this to happen. But I wont argue against it until they change the FAQ, if they ever do. The RAW is dead, long live the RAW.

Wouldn't it be RAFAQ, then?

But that is still besides the point that your analogy is flawed. If the weapon fires itself, it does not need to be targeted by the Psyker, nor would the carrier be the one actually shooting it. The one shooting it would be the one who programmed it and did know how to shoot it.

Well so many of these things come down to circumstance.

But I do still look forward to snap shooting PS.

Either way, I think this thread has gone as far as it productively can.

Moving on.