So recently me and my friends have been having a lot of discussions about Terminators. And the fact is, they're just not cutting it. They fall easily to other armies that have models that cost the same points but have, like, 2 wounds or whatever. And with the large quantity of AP 2 weapons now available, they are just plain underpowered.

I think that adding just 1 to their toughness would help, or (even better) giving them 2 wounds. Do you guys have any ideas that would help to make them just a little more balanced, or capable?

Then you're making them Centurions.
They're supposed to be different from Centurions.

That's why I've always proposed S5 Storm Bolters, two heavy weapons on a minimum squad, and Lightning Claw Terminators starting at 30 points. Now they have a role of being a tactical strike I guess. Still an improvement either way.

You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

We play them as Armour 1 in my group now... a roll of 1 is always a failed save, but AP2 weapons don't hurt them. So far it's worked out well.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

Make them 30 ppm, give them another wound and make Stormbolters assault 3. Give the option for them to take two heavy weapons and 0-2 cyclone missile launchers per squad regardless of size.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Seconded.

<sarcasm>
Yes, poor SM. Your "underpowered" units are still better than some of our better units. Must be rough.
</sarcasm>

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

Let them fire their weapons twice each Shooting Phase. And give them two wounds. Basically, make them mini-Centurions.

Just make them t7 and increase the firepower of a storm bolter. Don't make them cost more.

I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

I'm expecting them to do work of a squad that costs what they cost. They usually do nothing.

Nomeny wrote:
I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

They ARE supposed to be Super-Marines!

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

this

Nomeny wrote:
I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

Uhhhh... They are supposed to be elite marines that can survive through a crap ton of stuff with "tactical dreadnought armor." They're supposed to be like small walking tanks. And they pay the points for it...they just don't have the rules to back it up.

And what on earth are you "terminating" when they drop in before dying? gretchin in the open? We have better suicide units like podded sternguard.

To be in touch with their flavor, they need to be t5 2w at least. That would make them much more likely to see a combat and actually get to use their fists, increasing their typical damage output in a game significantly.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

Uhhhh... They are supposed to be elite marines that can survive through a crap ton of stuff with "tactical dreadnought armor." They're supposed to be like small walking tanks. And they pay the points for it...they just don't have the rules to back it up.

And what on earth are you "terminating" when they drop in before dying? gretchin in the open? We have better suicide units like podded sternguard.

To be in touch with their flavor, they need to be t5 2w at least. That would make them much more likely to see a combat and actually get to use their fists, increasing their typical damage output in a game significantly.

To be fair, marines should not have any suicide squads at all.

Yes meganobz suck too. Yes vespid suck too. Yes chaos marines suck too. Yes dreadnoughts and helbrutes and penitent engines suck too. Please go discuss about the meganobz in a meganobz thread. Derailing other threads with "but this unit is worse!" helps nothing.

Seriously, why does every thread like this have to devolve into "MY CODEX SUCKS WORSE THAN YOURS!!!!" No one, and I mean NO ONE, will argue that Orks don't suck and don't need a big boost. Seriously. If the norm of the game is going to be Eldar, Tau, Necrons and Codex: Space Marines (select chapters), then other codexes should be brought up to that level. Absolutely bring Orks, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, and Tyranids and everything in between up to the level of the big boys. I would love it. Because the game is literally no fun when the big boys can ROFLSTOMP any army but each other.

That being said, all of that doesn't change the fact that Terminators suck and have sucked for several editions. This thread is about fixing THEM. Not fixing Orks or Tyranids.

Meganobz are better than terminators imo, as they are more resistant to be chipped out by small arms. They are only weaker vs S8+ AP 2 or better, which is actually getting rare. Because high str is usually low ROF, which now sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Seriously, why does every thread like this have to devolve into "MY CODEX SUCKS WORSE THAN YOURS!!!!" No one, and I mean NO ONE, will argue that Orks don't suck and don't need a big boost. Seriously. If the norm of the game is going to be Eldar, Tau, Necrons and Codex: Space Marines (select chapters), then other codexes should be brought up to that level. Absolutely bring Orks, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, and Tyranids and everything in between up to the level of the big boys. I would love it. Because the game is literally no fun when the big boys can ROFLSTOMP any army but each other.

That being said, all of that doesn't change the fact that Terminators suck and have sucked for several editions. This thread is about fixing THEM. Not fixing Orks or Tyranids.

Loyalist terminators have always sucked.

Martel732 wrote:
Meganobz are better than terminators imo, as they are more resistant to be chipped out by small arms. They are only weaker vs S8+ AP 2 or better, which is actually getting rare. Because high str is usually low ROF, which now sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Seriously, why does every thread like this have to devolve into "MY CODEX SUCKS WORSE THAN YOURS!!!!" No one, and I mean NO ONE, will argue that Orks don't suck and don't need a big boost. Seriously. If the norm of the game is going to be Eldar, Tau, Necrons and Codex: Space Marines (select chapters), then other codexes should be brought up to that level. Absolutely bring Orks, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, and Tyranids and everything in between up to the level of the big boys. I would love it. Because the game is literally no fun when the big boys can ROFLSTOMP any army but each other.

That being said, all of that doesn't change the fact that Terminators suck and have sucked for several editions. This thread is about fixing THEM. Not fixing Orks or Tyranids.

Loyalist terminators have always sucked.

They also have more attacks with power claws and can ride in a standard transport that is an assault vehical...not saying they are good cause they are trash but...better then tactical terms for sure.

Martel732 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

Uhhhh... They are supposed to be elite marines that can survive through a crap ton of stuff with "tactical dreadnought armor." They're supposed to be like small walking tanks. And they pay the points for it...they just don't have the rules to back it up.

And what on earth are you "terminating" when they drop in before dying? gretchin in the open? We have better suicide units like podded sternguard.

To be in touch with their flavor, they need to be t5 2w at least. That would make them much more likely to see a combat and actually get to use their fists, increasing their typical damage output in a game significantly.

To be fair, marines should not have any suicide squads at all.

"The Emperor's favoured sons, who carry the blood of the primarchs in your veins, you should totes use suicide squads composed of veterans to destroy a single important enemy before the rest of their army kills them horribly. That is definitly a good use of a chapter's limited marines and a good investment after the decades of training it takes to reach veteran status."
Roboute Guilliman while drunk (or possibly Alpharius, also drunk)

I am not sure how to make terminators into the ultimate killing machines they are supposed to be without giving them an extra wound so they can survive more, bumping their invulnerable save to 4++, or just giving them 2x special weapons per 5 man squad.

Roboute Guilliman while drunk (or possibly Alpharius, also drunk)

Have an exalt!

Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Wouldn't increasing their offense make them priority targets, thus necessitating them having better defense.

Although this isn't meant to be a discussion about other armies, I'd like to mention how my terminators got absolutely destroyed by some Meganobz the other day, due to some unlucky roles. This just proves that they need to be buffed- even for a small increase in points. Perhaps like the thunderwolf cavalry without the extra movement, and being toned down a bit.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

I disagree. give em bigger guns and they're just centurions. Terminators should be more durable then Centurions, at the expense of weaponry. give termies some additional durability, a formation that gives them OS and they've got a place

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Wouldn't increasing their offense make them priority targets, thus necessitating them having better defense.

No, because there's much less to target them with. The best defense is a good offense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

I disagree. give em bigger guns and they're just centurions. Terminators should be more durable then Centurions, at the expense of weaponry. give termies some additional durability, a formation that gives them OS and they've got a place

Then they'll continue to be paper weights no one cares about. Their core concept fails in 7th. Actually, it always has, but the diminishing utility of storm bolters just underscores this.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Wouldn't increasing their offense make them priority targets, thus necessitating them having better defense.

No, because there's much less to target them with. The best defense is a good offense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

I disagree. give em bigger guns and they're just centurions. Terminators should be more durable then Centurions, at the expense of weaponry. give termies some additional durability, a formation that gives them OS and they've got a place

Then they'll continue to be paper weights no one cares about. Their core concept fails in 7th. Actually, it always has, but the diminishing utility of storm bolters just underscores this.

Having better defense actually does increase their offense. Instead of shooting some piddly bolter shots and dying, they would stand a better chance of living to the following assault phase where they have power fists, an easily forgettable piece of wargear considering they previously never made it to melee. Even if they did die, taking away a much larger chunk of enemy firepower than before is an improvement for the overall army.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Wouldn't increasing their offense make them priority targets, thus necessitating them having better defense.

No, because there's much less to target them with. The best defense is a good offense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

I disagree. give em bigger guns and they're just centurions. Terminators should be more durable then Centurions, at the expense of weaponry. give termies some additional durability, a formation that gives them OS and they've got a place

Then they'll continue to be paper weights no one cares about. Their core concept fails in 7th. Actually, it always has, but the diminishing utility of storm bolters just underscores this.

Power fist are excellent offense. Defense allows them to use it.

Maybe. But better shooting synergizes much better with their deep striking ability. Land Raiders are worse than useless garbage units, and they don't have any other delivery systems.

The whole "beam down and then stand around like idiots for a turn" ruins their assault capability.

There also the issue of game turns. I often need something to happen NOW, not a turn later. You are already reserving them, so they do nothing turn 1. Then they beam down turn 2 AT BEST and do nothing again. That's 1/3 of the game they are doing nothing at all.

sounds to me Martel like your definition of a crap unit is "Can I point at a enemy unit and erase them in one turn" that kinda mentality is what's horriably wrong with 40k today. I'd rather GW not continue to give us more units like that, hell I'd rather see them REDUCE it (I'd be all for them reducing AP of all ranged AP4 and lower weapons by 1 make armor saves useful again)

I see it this way, Terminators should be about DURABILITY, with Centurions being about FIREPOWER. you use Cents when you wanna kill something fast. termies are what you park in area you need to take insane firepower.

10 wounds of t5 with 2+/5++ would actually be significantly hard the chew through (assuming t5 2w termies.) I don't think I'd have any problem deep striking them with that statline as part of a turn 2 threat overload strategy, and I would fully expect some of them to make it to happy-fisty time as opposed to the current situation.

I'd actually run some of my 40+ termies if they had that statline. :|

In BA, Toss in Karlaen for reroll reserves and run archangels for less scatter, and you could be staring down a pretty rough list.

I would be on board with Terminators being able to ignore Unwieldy, either in part (maybe they go down to I3 or I2) or altogether, which would actually make their Power Fists and Thunder Hammers scary, especially if paired with increased defensive capability.

BrianDavion wrote:
sounds to me Martel like your definition of a crap unit is "Can I point at a enemy unit and erase them in one turn" that kinda mentality is what's horriably wrong with 40k today. I'd rather GW not continue to give us more units like that, hell I'd rather see them REDUCE it (I'd be all for them reducing AP of all ranged AP4 and lower weapons by 1 make armor saves useful again)

I see it this way, Terminators should be about DURABILITY, with Centurions being about FIREPOWER. you use Cents when you wanna kill something fast. termies are what you park in area you need to take insane firepower.

Even if you gave them 2 wounds, they all vaporize to an ion accelerator still. I'm being realistic. None of my models last against Tau and Eldar, because I'm not fielding a TWC superfriends death star. So that means I need to kill them first. Because you can't absorb what Tau and Eldar can do without very specific stats.

Oh look, it's this thread again. Pops up every two weeks with the same posts every time.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Oh look, it's this thread again. Pops up every two weeks with the same posts every time.

...said the guy with a start date of less than three months ago...

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Oh look, it's this thread again. Pops up every two weeks with the same posts every time.

...said the guy with a start date of less than three months ago...

They grow up and get cynical so fast these days.

Not wrong though. Terminators, what’s wrong with them, and how to fix it is a very popular topic, and frequently battered about.

The main problem is that the game has moved on. They remain largely unchanged since the 3rd edition reboot. But while AP2 was less prevalent back then, you can’t swing a dead grot these days without someone putting a pieplate on you and deleting your squad. And they are still T4 1W models, so just spamming low end fire on them and watching the ones come up kills them just as dead.

Stormbolters used to be a decent way of projecting fire on the move. Rapid fire was a lot worse back in the day. Today it’s hardly an upgrade in fire over a 5 man tac squad.

If I had to pick a way to fix them, I’d probably go with the 1+ armor save, and make the 5++ a FNP check. That should help with the survivability. Going back to 2 heavies per 5 men would help the damage output. Might also do something like give them shred for their SBs.

Why not go in a different directions?

Make Tac Terminators Obsec troops. Having a 2+/5++ troop unit in cover, on an objective, with decent firepower and scary melee seems like an interesting choice.

They'd be more expensive than scouts or marines, but a lot harder to dislodge. And that seems like an interesting role.

Obsec Land Raiders might also be obnoxious and fun.

Terminators should all have Assault Cannons.

No seriously, hear me out. They are expensive, slow and fragile for their price, but with all assault cannons they would deal intimidating damage. Adjust the price accordingly and you have a scary unit indeed.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Why not go in a different directions?

Make Tac Terminators Obsec troops. Having a 2+/5++ troop unit in cover, on an objective, with decent firepower and scary melee seems like an interesting choice.

They'd be more expensive than scouts or marines, but a lot harder to dislodge. And that seems like an interesting role.

Obsec Land Raiders might also be obnoxious and fun.

This. Maybe drop them to 35 or 40 PPM? I think that'd be fun. Too bad DW lost their Terminator Troops :(

Make rending ap3, make smash ap3, move some ap 2 weapons to ap3 status (since there are very few) and suddenly 2+ saves become relevant again.

There is that pesky issue of small arms fire drowning out saves as well, since a tactical unit is more points efficent for killing terminators in a fire fight. That could be addressed by a toughness increase, or better yet a strength reduction across the board on ranged weapons.

With the quantity of fire power seen now, it would be nice to bring it back in line.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Terminators should all have Assault Cannons.

No seriously, hear me out. They are expensive, slow and fragile for their price, but with all assault cannons they would deal intimidating damage. Adjust the price accordingly and you have a scary unit indeed.

I have made this argument too. Or make their Storm Bolters two-shot Assault Cannons. Str 6 AP 4, Heavy 2 Rending. That way the old kit is still usable, but they still get more oomph. Call them Terminator Storm Bolters. And then let them reroll failed Armor Saves. Change volume of fire from wrecking them 1/6th of the time to 1/36th of the time.

 Konrax wrote:
Make rending ap3, make smash ap3, move some ap 2 weapons to ap3 status (since there are very few) and suddenly 2+ saves become relevant again.

There is that pesky issue of small arms fire drowning out saves as well, since a tactical unit is more points efficent for killing terminators in a fire fight. That could be addressed by a toughness increase, or better yet a strength reduction across the board on ranged weapons.

With the quantity of fire power seen now, it would be nice to bring it back in line.

It's not that simple because you just made Riptides and Dreadknights even more obnoxious.

Well...we could always go back to where AP and Strength modified armour saves and give Terminators back their 3+ save on 2D6.

 Happyjew wrote:
Well...we could always go back to where AP and Strength modified armour saves and give Terminators back their 3+ save on 2D6.

Not on a D6 system. That game was terrible. Regular power armor was basically useless and terminators still bought the farm quickly because krak missiles and lascannons were -6 armor save. And genestealers punching you were -3.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Why not go in a different directions?

Make Tac Terminators Obsec troops. Having a 2+/5++ troop unit in cover, on an objective, with decent firepower and scary melee seems like an interesting choice.

They'd be more expensive than scouts or marines, but a lot harder to dislodge. And that seems like an interesting role.

Obsec Land Raiders might also be obnoxious and fun.

seems like a solid set up this strikes me as more a formation thing then anything.

random proposed rules...

Terminator Bulwark:
Sometimes a chapter must hold an important position against all comers, sometimes it's a fortress othertimes an important location. the important thing is that the defenders cannot give an inch of ground. for these situations a Space Marine Chapter employs the legendary 1st company Terminator Bulwark.

Requirements
2-5 Terminator Squads

Special Rules:
Stubborn
Objective secured.

May re-roll Invunerable Saves.


Please note that the terminator Bulwark specifies terminator squads not assault terminators, so no re-rollable 3++s

This unit doesn't synergize well in a list. They just sit there, not dying, and contribute very little.

THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

The problem with Terminators is both antiquated rules AND the fact that Centurions do their job better.

Centurions shouldn't exist. Terminators should have 2 heavy weapons per squad at every level and get access to some useful heavy weapons BESIDES the Cyclone Launcher (the AssCan is no longer awesome like it was in 4th edition and the Heavy Flamer is a joke).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

Reroll armor saves against things with AP4 or worse.

That way you have to point anti-tank weapons at them to kill them reliably, not spam them down. You'd also have to reduce the number of AP2 weaponry.

 Lukash_ wrote:
Reroll armor saves against things with AP4 or worse.

That way you have to point anti-tank weapons at them to kill them reliably, not spam them down. You'd also have to reduce the number of AP2 weaponry.

You can't reduce AP 2 weaponry until the Riptide and Dreadknight have 3+ saves.

The problem with Termies (at least that I've seen) is that the Tactical Variety lacks a real punch at range, and both variants are over-costed and get easily drowned in small arms fire.

So, I think there's a few things that could be done

1. Make them T5 and 2 wounds as others in this thread have suggested.

2. Give them re-rolls on armor saves vs. weapons with a certain AP (maybe 3 or higher?).

3. Improve Storm Bolters. There's been a lot of talk about this, so I won't re-hash it here.

4. Lower their cost.

I'm sure there are other ways too, but these are the ones that spring to mind for me. Any combination of these things might help to make Termies a little more worthwhile I feel

On top of the suggestions for 2 wounds or toughness 5 or drop in points. I'd also like to add that some kind of shunt teleport up to 30" like GK interceptors would be nice. Once per game and can't assault afterwards, but very useful if their transport blows up first turn so they aren't left out of the game for 5 turns.

Strength 5 storm bolters is fine too.

I'd also like to see 1 in 3 terminators be able to select heavy weapons, or possibly just 2 in 5.

I just had an utterly crazy idea that made sense...so it can't be right, so I am going to bounce it off you guys.

Get rid of Centurion squads. Realistically they are terminators, you can say whatever you like about them but they are basically terminators +1. Instead of buffing the ever living crap out of Terminators just include centurions into a terminator squad.

One of the chief complaints about Terminators is that they lack offensive ability, which I agree with 100% (I am an Ork Player, I laugh at Terminators). If you included Centurions into Terminator squads you would not only get rid of the most annoying unit in the SM codex (Devastator Centurions) you would also put Terminators on the same page as Tacticals in the sense that they are good at everything. Say for every 3 Terminators you can take 1 Centurion and equip it however you would like. This would also not effect how you equip those terminators, so for every 3 terminators you can equip one with a Cyclone or whatever you would like. Finally, get rid of the restrictions on gear. If you want to take a terminator with a Storm Shield in a normal (Tactical) squad then you can.

9 Terminators and 3 Centurions would be fearsome on the board as one single unit, you would pretty much get rid of the option of a transport but at the same time you would be amazing as far as defenses. Put a couple (2-3) Storm Shield guys up from to soak up that fire power, give the other handful of guys some Cyclone missile launchers and then give your Centurions those Grav weapons which annihilate most armies and since they can split fire you are golden.

I think this would make them all that much more effective and synergize that much more with the rest of the SM codex.

Martel732 wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:
Reroll armor saves against things with AP4 or worse.

That way you have to point anti-tank weapons at them to kill them reliably, not spam them down. You'd also have to reduce the number of AP2 weaponry.

You can't reduce AP 2 weaponry until the Riptide and Dreadknight have 3+ saves.

Make both of those units walkers instead.

Make no monsterous creature ever have a 2+ save.

GW has known that terminators has been crap for editions. The answer to this is the same reason why eldar has been overpowered 7 editions in a row, why tyranids has always sucked, why orks has always sucked, why the pyrovore is the pyrovore, etc.

The only mistake GW ever fixed are pariahs (which were a really sweet model!) by retconning them out of existence.

GW cares not for you nor their rules, they only care about your money (and keeping eldar strong, in phil kelly's case)

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

8 Power Fist attacks and two Power Sword attacks isn't capable offense. Neither is having Storm Bolters or having ONE Heavy Weapon per 5. On top of their stupidly slow speed.

They have crap offense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

8 Power Fist attacks and two Power Sword attacks isn't capable offense. Neither is having Storm Bolters or having ONE Heavy Weapon per 5. On top of their stupidly slow speed.

They have crap offense.

8 strength 8 AP 2 hits are crap offense? the problem is as said "they never get to use them" terminators are slow, lack much in the way of transport options (if we could get a hundred point weaponless Land Raider for Termies they'd be pretty decent) and strike at I1.

if they didn't have those problems getting in the way it'd be seen as reasonably decent offense.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

8 Power Fist attacks and two Power Sword attacks isn't capable offense. Neither is having Storm Bolters or having ONE Heavy Weapon per 5. On top of their stupidly slow speed.

They have crap offense.

8 strength 8 AP 2 hits are crap offense? the problem is as said "they never get to use them" terminators are slow, lack much in the way of transport options (if we could get a hundred point weaponless Land Raider for Termies they'd be pretty decent) and strike at I1.

if they didn't have those problems getting in the way it'd be seen as reasonably decent offense.

You don't get 8 hits, you get 8 attacks. That's 4 hits on average. 4 S8 AP2 hits turn 3 or 4 when you've crossed the board with a 175 point unit is rather awful offense.

Terminators only being T4 just melts my brain. I can't understand it. I also think they should have a much better invul save,, it fits the fluff. I rarely need 4 power fists in a squad, I would prefer the option to swap for power weapons.

T5 with a 2+ invul would fix them, and they would be about right points wise.

How to fix terminators in two easy steps:
Remove Terminator profile
Rename Centurions to "Terminators"

Warden wrote:
Terminators only being T4 just melts my brain. I can't understand it. I also think they should have a much better invul save,, it fits the fluff. I rarely need 4 power fists in a squad, I would prefer the option to swap for power weapons.

T5 with a 2+ invul would fix them, and they would be about right points wise.

SM are T4 and inside the Terminator armour is a marine, hence T4.

If GW stopped handwaving ridiculous stats and weapons into newer kits and stopped leaving older units in the dirt we wouldn't have arbitary stats like centurions being T5. T5 marines is what melts my brain.

BrianDavion wrote:

seems like a solid set up this strikes me as more a formation thing then anything.

random proposed rules...

Terminator Bulwark:
Sometimes a chapter must hold an important position against all comers, sometimes it's a fortress othertimes an important location. the important thing is that the defenders cannot give an inch of ground. for these situations a Space Marine Chapter employs the legendary 1st company Terminator Bulwark.

Requirements
2-5 Terminator Squads

Special Rules:
Stubborn
Objective secured.

May re-roll Invunerable Saves.


Please note that the terminator Bulwark specifies terminator squads not assault terminators, so no re-rollable 3++s

Nice

Add an optional character (Termie Captain) who also gets Obsec and it would be a very fun little formation to field!

I know dakka is more of a "table or bust" mentality but Terminators scrapping over key objectives and bullying cheaper troops seems like a great use for them.

 MarsNZ wrote:

Warden wrote:
Terminators only being T4 just melts my brain. I can't understand it. I also think they should have a much better invul save,, it fits the fluff. I rarely need 4 power fists in a squad, I would prefer the option to swap for power weapons.

T5 with a 2+ invul would fix them, and they would be about right points wise.

SM are T4 and inside the Terminator armour is a marine, hence T4.

If GW stopped handwaving ridiculous stats and weapons into newer kits and stopped leaving older units in the dirt we wouldn't have arbitary stats like centurions being T5. T5 marines is what melts my brain.

Bikes add a point of toughness. Why not TDA?

I think they should get T5 and a re-rollable save.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
On top of the suggestions for 2 wounds or toughness 5 or drop in points. I'd also like to add that some kind of shunt teleport up to 30" like GK interceptors would be nice. Once per game and can't assault afterwards, but very useful if their transport blows up first turn so they aren't left out of the game for 5 turns.

Strength 5 storm bolters is fine too.

I'd also like to see 1 in 3 terminators be able to select heavy weapons, or possibly just 2 in 5.

I don't think a Shunt moves fits for Terminators, but I think there's definate scope for them to play around with the Teleport Mechanic.
It's on my wish list for terminators

1. Improved Teleport, including ability to re-deploy once per game
2. T5
3. 4++
4. Ignores Unwieldy
5. Two heavies per 5 models minimum. Heck, after Eldar jetbikes, allow every model to have a heavy weapon.

BrianDavion wrote:

Terminator Bulwark:
Sometimes a chapter must hold an important position against all comers, sometimes it's a fortress othertimes an important location. the important thing is that the defenders cannot give an inch of ground. for these situations a Space Marine Chapter employs the legendary 1st company Terminator Bulwark.

Requirements
2-5 Terminator Squads

Special Rules:
Stubborn
Objective secured.

May re-roll Invunerable Saves.
Please note that the terminator Bulwark specifies terminator squads not assault terminators, so no re-rollable 3++s

I'd run these.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless,
and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

: )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its really funny how SM players and Ork players have a different perspective on their terminators.

There's a reason some Terminators in HH have 2 wounds.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Make them 30 ppm, give them another wound and make Stormbolters assault 3. Give the option for them to take two heavy weapons and 0-2 cyclone missile launchers per squad regardless of size.

I'm not sure about all of it; personally I'd refine that to 2 Wounds each, Storm Bolters as Assault 2/Heavy 3, and drop to 30ppm with regular Power Weapons with 5 point upgrade to Power Fist (+10 for Chainfist) would do-it.

Assault Terminators would just be the Wounds and points drop, with increase to the cost of Storm Shield + Thunder Hammer to compensate. I'd like to see them able to pay extra to be able to charge after deep striking (or keep their current cost and make it standard), so long as they didn't scatter onto terrain, as they're teleporting in wearing fully sealed armour rather than dropping from the air etc. This would make Drop Pods with teleport homers even more useful, as they could eliminate scatter making it easy to use this.


Deathwing should remain the ones able to take mixed units but without any reduction in points, instead getting charge on arrival as standard, plus regaining their twin-linked on arrival bonus, however they can't charge on arrival if they shoot (i.e- you get one of these only).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

8 Power Fist attacks and two Power Sword attacks isn't capable offense. Neither is having Storm Bolters or having ONE Heavy Weapon per 5. On top of their stupidly slow speed.

They have crap offense.

8 strength 8 AP 2 hits are crap offense? the problem is as said "they never get to use them" terminators are slow, lack much in the way of transport options (if we could get a hundred point weaponless Land Raider for Termies they'd be pretty decent) and strike at I1.

if they didn't have those problems getting in the way it'd be seen as reasonably decent offense.

You don't get 8 hits, you get 8 attacks. That's 4 hits on average. 4 S8 AP2 hits turn 3 or 4 when you've crossed the board with a 175 point unit is rather awful offense.

Thank you for typing that.

Add on top of that I'd still take Assault Centurion over either Terminator variant. Three hurricane Bolters, a S10 weapon, Melta TL Guns, Split fire, and all I need is a Pod to compensate?
Centurions are the durable heavy hitters. Terminators haven't been good at that role even WITH two assault cannons. They need a change offensively, as all increasing durability does is ensure I'm still taking Centurions.

to fix terminators you would need to go back and change so much about the game right now, youd probably have most competitive players throw half there armies out a nearby window because of how badly you would need to brick them.

The simplest fix for Terminators would be to lower their price down to 25 points per model or so. They do useful things and have useful weapons, so it's not like they're a hopelessly broken unit that can't achieve anything. Point cost is what's holding them back.

 Saber wrote:
The simplest fix for Terminators would be to lower their price down to 25 points per model or so. They do useful things and have useful weapons, so it's not like they're a hopelessly broken unit that can't achieve anything. Point cost is what's holding them back.

Tactical Terminators have fairly useless firearms. They need some kind of buff to their shooting too.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Saber wrote:
The simplest fix for Terminators would be to lower their price down to 25 points per model or so. They do useful things and have useful weapons, so it's not like they're a hopelessly broken unit that can't achieve anything. Point cost is what's holding them back.

Tactical Terminators have fairly useless firearms. They need some kind of buff to their shooting too.

At 25 ppm, useless firearms don't matter anymore. You are just using a wave assault of 2+ save powerfists. Stupid conceptually, but 7th ed is stupid lethal.

This discussion again? Is it time again already? Ok...

Terminators suffer in all categories: fortitude, firepower, deployment & closecombat capabilities. The power creep left them behind in 3rd ed. I still have the whitedwarf where Andy Chambers had to assign them a 5++, because a 2+ alone was totally insufficient for their points and table top purpose. Heres what I believe they need to improve (this also assumes they go back to 40 points):

A 1+ save. Remember a 1 is always a failure.

Storm bolters should be salvo 2/4

2 heavy weapons per 5 men

The sergeant can choose any terminator h2h weapons

Terminators ignore Unwieldy usr. If thats too much give them an additional attack from also having a SB, much like a pistol.

All firing at Terminators that DS is snap shooting. Including Intercept fire.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
How to fix terminators in two easy steps:
Remove Terminator profile
Rename Centurions to "Terminators"

Exalted.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Saber wrote:
The simplest fix for Terminators would be to lower their price down to 25 points per model or so. They do useful things and have useful weapons, so it's not like they're a hopelessly broken unit that can't achieve anything. Point cost is what's holding them back.

Tactical Terminators have fairly useless firearms. They need some kind of buff to their shooting too.

At 25 ppm, useless firearms don't matter anymore. You are just using a wave assault of 2+ save powerfists. Stupid conceptually, but 7th ed is stupid lethal.

Id drink to that! Honor guard are already 2+ armor with power weapons at that price and they can sweep and hit at initiative, so it seems like a fair trade to me

Hmmm... There's quite a few ways to make them better, but I think what I would like to see is...

1. Assault 3 storm bolters
2. 4++ invulnerable save
3. +1T provided by the armour

TDA should give +2 T.

This would make them a viable option to bikes on HQs and also make the Terminators really tanky.

Adjust price as necessary.

Terminators aren't meant to be long rang fighters. They are close quarters specialists, which is why they have the heavy armour to begin with. Easiest fix is to give FNP 4+,and change stormbolters to assault 3. That keeps them different enough from Centurions.

.

But why are they getting FNP in the first place? There's no justification for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
TDA should give +2 T.

This would make them a viable option to bikes on HQs and also make the Terminators really tanky.

Adjust price as necessary.

It wouldn't because it is easy to get EW for your Biker guys (TSE, TGC, TSM) and creating Bikers as troops.
Plus the mobility of bikes will always make Biker HQ's better a choice.

This is a simple result of incessant power creep and it was always bound to happen. As more and more larger, more powerful units emerge forces in turn receive more and more incredibly powerful weapons.

The "AP" mechanic started in 3rd expedites play but really shortcuts a lot of armoured units. As the game and universe developed and the kits became plastic and ever-larger the Terminators were always going to start to fall behind.

In 2nd edition they were...it. The best unit without question in the game as far as survivability. But, the battlefield was much more restricted back then. You didn't have Knights, Baneblades etc. kicking around on tables and 10" templates being tossed around with AP2 etc. With the change of the battlefield environment I'd expect Terminators to be upgraded or down-costed next go round.

While time consuming, old save modifiers were easier to manage with Terminator armour - allowing units to threaten Terminators without simply ignoring their armour.

Elbows wrote:
This is a simple result of incessant power creep and it was always bound to happen. As more and more larger, more powerful units emerge forces in turn receive more and more incredibly powerful weapons.

The "AP" mechanic started in 3rd expedites play but really shortcuts a lot of armoured units. As the game and universe developed and the kits became plastic and ever-larger the Terminators were always going to start to fall behind.

In 2nd edition they were...it. The best unit without question in the game as far as survivability. But, the battlefield was much more restricted back then. You didn't have Knights, Baneblades etc. kicking around on tables and 10" templates being tossed around with AP2 etc. With the change of the battlefield environment I'd expect Terminators to be upgraded or down-costed next go round.

While time consuming, old save modifiers were easier to manage with Terminator armour - allowing units to threaten Terminators without simply ignoring their armour.

Loyalists terminators were still useless garbage in 2nd because... wait for it... their firepower sucked. CSM terminators could get reaper autocannons and blastmasters and stomped all over the loyalists.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Terminators aren't meant to be long rang fighters. They are close quarters specialists, which is why they have the heavy armour to begin with. Easiest fix is to give FNP 4+,and change stormbolters to assault 3. That keeps them different enough from Centurions.

.

I agree, that Terminators aren't supposed to be armored long range special weapons squads. The problem is, they give up nearly all forms of useful ranged attack to be only slightly tanky in today's meta. Other than CC with a TH/SS, there exists a better solution in the Astartes arsenal for virtually every other scenario; and most of those units are going to be more flexible. I mean, pick your poison - sternguard, devastators, scouts, centurions, command can all be generally more helpful.

It's a crying shame because Terminators have some of the coolest models in the game

Yoyoyo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

seems like a solid set up this strikes me as more a formation thing then anything.

random proposed rules...

Terminator Bulwark:
Sometimes a chapter must hold an important position against all comers, sometimes it's a fortress othertimes an important location. the important thing is that the defenders cannot give an inch of ground. for these situations a Space Marine Chapter employs the legendary 1st company Terminator Bulwark.

Requirements
2-5 Terminator Squads

Special Rules:
Stubborn
Objective secured.

May re-roll Invunerable Saves.


Please note that the terminator Bulwark specifies terminator squads not assault terminators, so no re-rollable 3++s

Nice

Add an optional character (Termie Captain) who also gets Obsec and it would be a very fun little formation to field!

I know dakka is more of a "table or bust" mentality but Terminators scrapping over key objectives and bullying cheaper troops seems like a great use for them.

I wanted to devise some ideas on how to make them more useful while also finding them a distinct niche. with the existance of Centurions now, I think the "ohh just give them moar dakka!" mentality is a bad one. space marine players should rather instead be presented with a choice of "dakka or survivability" when chooseing between these two units.
I think assault termies aren't in that bad a place, but tatical termies could use a buff, but the easiest way to buff them without radically changing terminator armor, or giving them new weapons, or buffing other weapons which could have unforseen concequences (sternguard can take stormbolters) would be a formation. so I thought a formation based around taking and holding ground seemed approperate. objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful.

"objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful."

I'd still never use them. They still aren't DOING anything. Standing there and dying slightly less slowly isn't beating Eldar.

 Ashiraya wrote:
TDA should give +2 T.

This would make them a viable option to bikes on HQs and also make the Terminators really tanky.

Adjust price as necessary.

So what, T7 nurgle Termis, T6 Chaos Lords and Chapter Masters.

Ah ah, no, never, pls.

Martel732 wrote:
"objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful."

I'd still never use them. They still aren't DOING anything. Standing there and dying slightly less slowly isn't beating Eldar.

Do you not play games with objectives? seriously?

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful."

I'd still never use them. They still aren't DOING anything. Standing there and dying slightly less slowly isn't beating Eldar.

Do you not play games with objectives? seriously?

Yes, I play games with objectives. But just standing on an objective isn't enough.

Especially when those Jetbikes will cross over last turn and contest the objectives. Hence why Terminators need more killing power.

It isn't that hard to logic, ya know?

Martel732 wrote:
"objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful."

I'd still never use them. They still aren't DOING anything. Standing there and dying slightly less slowly isn't beating Eldar.

That's more of a problem with Eldar having absurd rules than it is with the Terminators having bad rules. Terminators are, I think, close to what a balanced unit should look like, perhaps with just a touch more firepower or a lower point cost to make them worthwhile. They're clearly elite Space Marines, being harder to kill and more killy than the regular Marines, but they're well within the ability of most enemy units to engage and have a chance at beating them.

If you want to balance them against stupid stuff like Eldar, Tau battlesuits, and Invisibility then Terminators would need to have two wounds, three attacks, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, Preferred Enemy, and Assault 4 Rending on their Storm Bolters in order to accurately represent how elite Space Marines would compare to that sort of opposition. And even that might not be enough.

That's the way the game is going. The Eldar look less absurd with every release.

Martel732 wrote:
That's the way the game is going. The Eldar look less absurd with every release.

I can't think of any other release other then eldar that was that absurd. certainly can't think of strength D weapons on any one else's elites. eldar got the equivilant of terminator heavy flamers being strength D

Re roll all 1s on all saves. +10ppm, fixed

I'd say out of a Chaos view: Make them cheaper, give them an additional attack and the ability to overrun. Who needs a close combat unit that can't overrun?!

I'm playing in a Badab campaign, and honestly, my terminators have been my most effective unit, BUT that is because of some special rules in the campaign. That is despite the fact I use Lamenters, so mine cost more, and the scouts I use to put teleport homers in place are worse than the regular marine versions. The extra toughness, 2 wound and Armour 1+ suggestions are, in my opinion, unimaginative and speak of wanting to simply steamroller the opposition. I think there could be more imaginative alternatives. My initial observations;

1) Terminators kick ass in Zone Mortalis. People expect to deploy them in the open in regular 40k and survive. Even in the fluff, that is not how it is meant to be. Use them wisely, in built up areas, and you'll kick ass.

2) My sergeant got a special rule that, once per game, he can redeploy 6" in the movement phase, but it doesn't count as movement. I use that to deepstrike, move, and still get to shoot. It makes them immense on the turn they arrive. One of the terminator formations gives a similar ability, IIRC, so use that.

3) Heavy flamers have not even been mentioned yet. I find them hugely effective, and for their points, better than autocannons, especially when you deepstrike close, which I always attempt.

4) I deploy mine with a chaplain in terminator armour. He got a special relic that is basically an absurdly good heavy flamer. It makes them even more effective.

Recommendations:

A) I think there is an argument that teleporting should allow the unit to use their BS to reduce the scatter, so they'd be less likely to scatter, and if they did, go less distance. Even 2d6-3 would be fantastic. I'd expect teleporting to be more accurate than a jump pack, so fits the fluff, IMO. It would go some way to making up for the fact terminators have a much bigger footprint when deepstriking than most units.

B) Allow teleporting in to let you move AND shoot when you arrive. It is meant to be a surprise for the enemy!

(A and B together might be overpowered)

C) Maybe give a Hammer of Wrath attack. Not great at S4, but that means it would not be unbalancing, and it would help slightly.

I am not so sure that making them more durable or making their storm bolters better is the way to go, but if people want that, I think;;

D) Giving them Feel No Pain (6+) due to internal devices giving pain killing injections, etc, would be better than T5 or 2W or Armour 1+ or 4++

E) Giving them rending ammo for their storm bolters would be better than giving them more shots. That makes them more effective against enemy elites rather than good at mowing down hordes, which is not what their fluff has ever been about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, I forgot to mention - another option might be to let Assault Terminators assault from Deepstrike - IF they succeed on an initiative check...

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
TDA should give +2 T.

This would make them a viable option to bikes on HQs and also make the Terminators really tanky.

Adjust price as necessary.

So what, T7 nurgle Termis, T6 Chaos Lords and Chapter Masters.

Ah ah, no, never, pls.

Why not? You have plasma, be happy.

My preferred fix on Terminator s is the following.

1. Drop base points cost and turn the starting power fist into a power weapon.
2. Drop minimum unit size.
3. Provide more options to all the Terminators in the formation (think Chaos or Space Wolves).
4. Replace Relentless and the 5++ with Slow and Purposeful with a 4++.
5. Easier buy in on terminator heavy weapons and more weapon choices (Plasma Cannons, MultiMelta, etc)

Mkay, you wanna fix terminators, here's how you do it.

Start with the Wargear entry for Terminator Armor Itself.
On top of the Standard entry Add the following for Standard and Cataphractii Terminator Armour:
Models Equipped with Terminator armour gain an +1 bonus to their Toughness.
Models Equipped with Terminator Armor gain Feel No Pain (5+) to a maximum of 4+ Regardless of Stacking Special Rules.

Shock Assault: Terminator Armour is known for its advanced teleportation technology, and make use of this ability in daring pinpoint assaults. At the start of the movement phase, the player may nominate any number of Units or Models Equipped with Terminator Armor within 24 inches of another Model Equipped with a Homing Beacon or Teleport Homer to engage the suits Teleportation matrix.

Remove One model from the unit and place it up to 6 inches away from the model with the model equipped with the Locator Beacon or Teleport Homer, and then remove and replace the rest of the unit no more than one inch away from the first model. This counts as movement for the unit, however the unit may shoot and charge as normal.

Restrictions:
The Unit containing the Locator Beacon or Teleport Homer must have been on the board at the beginning of the turn, and may not have arrived from reserves in during the turn Shock Assault is used. This includes units containing a Locator Beacon or Teleport Homer inside Transport.

Models may use the Shock Assault to move out of a Transport, for purposes of measurement measure from the center of the transport. Under no circumstances can the Shock Assault ability be used to Enter a transport.

Shock Assault may not be used if the model has arrived via Deep Strike this turn.


Lightning Strike: If arriving from reserves via Deep Strike, the player may nominate to use Lightning Strike. This ability allows a unit or model in Terminator Armor to assault the on the turn it arrives from Deep Strike when using the units Teleport Homer only.

Restrictions:
May only be used by Assault Terminator Units and Cataphractii Terminator Units that are equipped with Close Combat and Melee Specialist Weapons Only, as well as Independent Characters in Terminator or Cataphractii Terminator Armour Also equipped with Close Comat or Melee Specialist Weapons only, this does include Storm Shields.

Due to the extreme power constraints on the armors teleportation matrix for such a taxing assault, if this ability is used, the unit may not use Shock Assault at any point during the game.


Individual UNIT Entries:
Terminator Squad:
Special Issue Ammunition.
Terminator Assault Squad:
+1 WS for 2 ccw/Melee Specialist weapons or +1 T for if at least 3 models in base to base with one another have a Storm Shield.
Cataphractii Terminator Squad:
Special Issue Ammunition. +1BS may elect to make 1 Power Weapon master Crafted.

At 200pts for 5 before upgrades I think that's fair

Terminators function incredibly well as a joke unit.

I think it is hilarious that most of the proposed fixes are trying to turn them into worse Centurions rather than fixing their role on the battlefield.

The game isn't granulated enough to support terminators and centurions, I think. For example, in a D10 system, terminators could have 2+ armor and centurions 3+ to reflect the centurion's focus on offense.

That's a complete rewrite though. That's terribly more time consuming than a few basic fixes. The fixes I proposed are relatively simple and help make them distinct rather than "Centurion-lite".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's a complete rewrite though. That's terribly more time consuming than a few basic fixes. The fixes I proposed are relatively simple and help make them distinct rather than "Centurion-lite".

I think the vanilla marines have already gotten all the "fixes" we're going to see for these guys, though. Because knocking 5 pts off totally makes them worthwhile. That's a fix by someone who is enslaved to the rule of cool.

That's 25 points off a minimum squad. It was an awesome start but not enough.

It would actually be kind of cool to have an edition of 40k that favored models like Terminators, for a change. I would welcome a version of 40k that favored slow, lumbering units rather than superfast, zoom-across-the-table models

Generally speaking, ALL the superfast models are way more likely to win you a game than the superslow models. Mobility should be costed as highly as firepower, and tankiness should either cost less or be more effective.

Wasn't this the post GK 5th edition era ?

GK Terminators are some of the only Terminators worth a damn. They give Warp Charges, all have Force Weapons and/or strike at S6-10, at least have a good Heavy Weapon (which they should still be able to take two at minimum size) and are troops by default. The making of Psycannons Salvo was just icing on the cake to make PAGK useless.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Wasn't this the post GK 5th edition era ?

back in 5th edition all the GK cheese net lists I saw relied more on strike squads. it wasn't till the 7th edition codex that GKTs rose to prominance. mostly because strike squads weren't very good. if terminator squads where cheap eneugh and wherte troops for any other marine 'dex you'd never see tactical squads eaither

You barely see Tactical Squads now. Dark Angels and vanilla SM either use formations, Bikers or Scouts for troops. In everything else they're seen as a Tax, and partially the reason why Blood Angels are considered *bad* is because they don't have access to either methods (their scouts still suck).

Again most of this and the Terminators are the product of Power Creep. Dial everything back to 3rd edition and these are the ones who will see the least changes, but most increase in power.

BA still have good scouts IMO. Cheap troop tax. Beats overpriced elite that costs more for no reason which won't get fixed.

FWIW, for my group's next campaign (and we'll probably keep it as a house rule), the decision was made that Terminators could re-roll failed invulnerable saves of 1. Note that this only applies to the 5+ invulnerable save granted by Terminator armour, and not invulnerable saves from other sources (such as Storm Shields).

I gave storm bolters a heavy 3 firing option that can't be used for snapshots. All around boost there. Then I made space wolves, chaos marine, grey knights, and blood angels units that start the game in terminator armor 5 points cheaper per model like they did with space marines and things seem to be going well.

Their main issue is being a defensive melee unit. There isn't enough fast heavy hitting and durable melee stuff out there to necessitate them. I also added 9" movement to all monstrous creatures and walkers base. Now there are units running forward that you may need to speed bump or crush so they don't get too much killing done. Terminators do that well in my experience.

Eh. Make em cheaper. There is no reason you should have 2 wounds when Orks have no invul, no good guns and S&P.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Eh. Make em cheaper. There is no reason you should have 2 wounds when Orks have no invul, no good guns and S&P.

Give Orks an invulnerable save, good guns and S&P. Adjust their price accordingly. I don't think people are saying "Terminators must be the best thing in 40K" just that they should be better. That's not mutually exclusive with buffing other units also.

I really dislike the idea of lowering their points cost, they're supposed to be the elite of the elite, equipped with incredibly rare and powerful armour. Not just another troop you can spam.

I love terminators, the fluff, the look, Deathwing etc.

The problem IMHO is that the game has just moved beyond them with GW's ridiculous lack of internal regulation and the never ending escalating of units just to sell more models. Centurions are a damn joke, but why wouldn't you take them over Terminators. Grav weaponry. The massive increase on AP2 weaponry. The escalation of systems to include knights, super heavies etc. The terminator doesn't belong on this battlefield.
Terminators are designed for precision strikes to gut the heart of the enemy or for boarding actions. The latter they can still do quite well in Zone Mortalis but the former is just not possible.
A fix? Outside of increased stats (which will just paint an even bigger target on their heads) is to allow assault after deep strike. Also allow units to mix weapons ala deathwing. This gets them back to the precision strike element they are supposed to be. Of course, some sort of control would be required to prevent people turning them into "stars", but I'm not sure how at this point as GW has just devolved this game into that completely, hard to turn back without a serious overhaul.

 bullyboy wrote:
The problem IMHO is that the game has just moved beyond them with GW's ridiculous lack of internal regulation and the never ending escalating of units just to sell more models. Centurions are a damn joke, but why wouldn't you take them over Terminators. Grav weaponry.

The obvious solution: get rid of power fists and give Terminators grav cannons

Then people would buy new models and Terminators would be happy!

Ork Meganob = 40 pts
SM Termie = 40 pts

SM Termie is way better than a Meganob.

Yes some weapons ignore even a 2+ save but then some weapons ignore toughness, some ignore extra wounds.. I don't think any weapons ignore invulnerable saves though, or FNP which is accessible to Termies easily through a cheap apothecary upgrade. They can die and they aren't the biggest and the baddest on the table anymore but they are still pretty good. Orks don't complain about their Meganobz why should SM players with their 10 free mini-tanks and re-roll everythings complain about their Termies? I don't get it.

How about making Termies T10 W10 Armour save 1++++ Inv 1+++++ FNP 1+++++ and completely free with every free tank? Would that fix em?

My thought has always been to give them "BS7" armor save for plain terminator armor losing the added roll against ap2/1. So vs bolters 2+/5+. Plasma would be just 2+. Any wargear that increases the invuln save increases the reroll.

+1 toughness would be iffy with this, because Nurgle termie lords would be hell to kill, with Typhus becoming Lord Unkillable Without D. Smashfether would be that +1.

 SolarCross wrote:
Ork Meganob = 40 pts
SM Termie = 40 pts

SM Termie is way better than a Meganob.

The Meganob is tougher against everything except S8+ AP2/AP1.

What is usually killing your Terminators, plasma guns and scatter lasers or meltaguns and bright lances?

 SolarCross wrote:
Ork Meganob = 40 pts
SM Termie = 40 pts

SM Termie is way better than a Meganob.

Yes some weapons ignore even a 2+ save but then some weapons ignore toughness, some ignore extra wounds.. I don't think any weapons ignore invulnerable saves though, or FNP which is accessible to Termies easily through a cheap apothecary upgrade. They can die and they aren't the biggest and the baddest on the table anymore but they are still pretty good. Orks don't complain about their Meganobz why should SM players with their 10 free mini-tanks and re-roll everythings complain about their Termies? I don't get it.

How about making Termies T10 W10 Armour save 1++++ Inv 1+++++ FNP 1+++++ and completely free with every free tank? Would that fix em?

I disagree completely. Manz are twice as durable against anything not ap2, and still more durable against ap2 than tactical termies. (3 plasma shots, accounting for bs4 and wounding, kill a termie, while 4 are needed to kill a MAN.) They only fall behind when the weapon in question is s8+. They also have more attacks, leading to less whiff-fests. Trukks are also quite nice. I wish I had a cheap no frills assault transport like them for my BA.

Also I'm not sure where you're getting the apothecary from. Normal termies can't snag one in-squad. The only way to get one to my knowledge is to ally blood angels for tax unit(s) and a sanguinary priest who can't take termie armor. Orks on the other hand don't need to ally, painboys are right there in their own HQ section.

I've seen tons of games, tons of termie loadouts, and tons of discussion, and I remain utterly convinced that the largest weakness (among the termie list of weaknesses,) is durability. Losing 1 termie per 6 wounds of any junk weapon against t4 does not do the job. Dead units don't do anything, regardless of what they're equipped with.

MANZ are better in practice than terminators. Neither are great, but ST 8+ weapons for the most part actively suck now.

 niv-mizzet wrote:


I disagree completely. Manz are twice as durable against anything not ap2, and still more durable against ap2 than tactical termies. (3 plasma shots, accounting for bs4 and wounding, kill a termie, while 4 are needed to kill a MAN.) They only fall behind when the weapon in question is s8+. They also have more attacks, leading to less whiff-fests. Trukks are also quite nice. I wish I had a cheap no frills assault transport like them for my BA.

Also I'm not sure where you're getting the apothecary from. Normal termies can't snag one in-squad. The only way to get one to my knowledge is to ally blood angels for tax unit(s) and a sanguinary priest who can't take termie armor. Orks on the other hand don't need to ally, painboys are right there in their own HQ section.

Weirdly MANZ are only leadership 7 and unless you take them in huge numbers they don't benefit from mob rule so do tend to run away a lot. Their lowish initiative doesn't help them survive sweeping advances either. They can't shoot and hit anything. Painboyz take up a HQ slot, which really limits how many you can have.

Regarding apothecaries I was looking at the dark angel book thinking termies were the same in the SM book. I just looked and you are right vanila SM can't get apothecaries but then they are only 35pts, so cheaper than a MANZ actually.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

I've seen tons of games, tons of termie loadouts, and tons of discussion, and I remain utterly convinced that the largest weakness (among the termie list of weaknesses,) is durability. Losing 1 termie per 6 wounds of any junk weapon against t4 does not do the job. Dead units don't do anything, regardless of what they're equipped with.

I think you are forgeting the invulnerable save, no? Also dead units is what tends to happen in war, sorry but there it is, warbosses can die, riptides can die, even spess murheeen papa smurf can die. So what you want them to have centurion stats? fine but they should pay for them. and then what stats will the centurion have? T7 W3 Sv 2+ Inv 4+? People will still throw as much dakka at them as they can, and they will still die.

Wow, 5 points cheaper! That changes everything!

Except it doesn't.

Also Painboys taking up a spot is a bad excuse. It is easy to get multiple CAD's. Same thing with Morale being an issue as it is easy to make them Fearless (Bully Boyz) or grab better LD (Warboss, though unneeded with the former formation). Quite frankly, Morale is an overrated problem.Terminators gain less out of formations too.

And I still think MANZ are over costed, but don't pretend they're worse than Terminators.

@solar cross
I never said they shouldn't be able to die. Please don't strawman, it just insults both of us. I said it should be harder to kill them than 30 bolter wounds for their point cost, especially when they're billed as infantry-size tanks.

No I didn't forget the invuln save. That's in my calculations. I'm very familiar with both manz and termies, and I know the ups and downs of both. I would rather have manz. Even over the 35 point codex version termies. (Side note: BA still have the 40 point version.)

Bringing up the shooting is just silly. Neither one of them is killing anything important with their guns. Case in point, no one who takes hammernators ever complains about giving up their storm bolters. If they do, slap them.

StarHunter25 wrote:
My thought has always been to give them "BS7" armor save for plain terminator armor losing the added roll against ap2/1. So vs bolters 2+/5+. Plasma would be just 2+. Any wargear that increases the invuln save increases the reroll.

+1 toughness would be iffy with this, because Nurgle termie lords would be hell to kill, with Typhus becoming Lord Unkillable Without D. Smashfether would be that +1.

I really like this idea

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wow, 5 points cheaper! That changes everything!

Except it doesn't.

Also Painboys taking up a spot is a bad excuse. It is easy to get multiple CAD's. Same thing with Morale being an issue as it is easy to make them Fearless (Bully Boyz) or grab better LD (Warboss, though unneeded with the former formation). Quite frankly, Morale is an overrated problem.Terminators gain less out of formations too.

And I still think MANZ are over costed, but don't pretend they're worse than Terminators.

35pts for a space marine with a better armour save, invulnerable save, deep strike versus 40pts for a Nob with the same armour save and nothing else.
Meh it still looks to me like termies are probably better, more shooty and a bit less choppy, but otherwise quite okay.

You can take multiple CAD's, or other detachments, but each CAD has a pleb tax. Every Painboy will require at least as many pleb units to be taken to get him. So it is not quite like you can take as many painboyz as you want. Morale is an issue if you have to take very particular formations, get particular warlord traits and add particular characters in order to make it a non issue.

Dark Angels have some pretty good formations for termies, but even vanilla spess murheens have got a couple specially for termies, Ist company task force and strike force ultra. Then there is all those fancy chapter doctrines. SM players can say they are Iron Hands and give their entire army FNP & It will not die for free. *drool*. To me all this crap about termies not being good enough is just SM players being spoilt for free goodies. I can gets 10 free tanks, so why I can'ts have 10 free termie squads too!

those tanks are razrobacks at worst. as require you take take, BARE MINIMUM, 420 points worth of tatical marines.

 SolarCross wrote:

Dark Angels have some pretty good formations for termies, but even vanilla spess murheens have got a couple specially for termies, Ist company task force and strike force ultra. Then there is all those fancy chapter doctrines. SM players can say they are Iron Hands and give their entire army FNP & It will not die for free. *drool*. To me all this crap about termies not being good enough is just SM players being spoilt for free goodies. I can gets 10 free tanks, so why I can'ts have 10 free termie squads too!

First off, it will not die on one wound models does nothing .

2nd, I play BA. Tell me more about how I'm spoiled rotten because I can take a bunch of free transports or passable formation bonuses.
Maybe you should dial back on the irrational imperium hate.

 SolarCross wrote:
Ork Meganob = 40 pts
SM Termie = 40 pts

SM Termie is way better than a Meganob.

This type of logic is flawed. Take out the actual factions and just use letters and numbers.

- Faction A has units 1, 2, 3, 4, where the effectiveness is 1 = 2 > 3 >> 4.
- Faction B has units 1, 2, 3, 4, where the effectiveness is 1 = 2 > 3 >> 4.
- There are also Factions C, D, and E.

In most intelligent lists, Faction A beats Faction B 95% of the time, beats faction C 65% of the time, ties faction D 50/50, and loses to faction E 65% of the time. Faction B also loses to factions C, D and E 95% of the time.

So, in this scenario unit A4 broken, even though an entire army of A4 still has a chance against faction B -- or worse, A1 > B1, A2 > B2, A3 > B3, A4 > B4?

YES, A4 is broken. The effectiveness (or lack thereof) of faction B is totally irrelevant. In fact, factions B, C, D and E are all irrelevant in determining whether A4 is broken: it's broken because A should never take unit A4 in its optimization formula.

If A4, B4, C4, and D4 are all crappy units in their respective factions, then they are all broken. The fact that B really sucks just means faction B is broken; it doesn't mean that any particular unit in another faction isn't.

Specifically in 40k, comparing a 40 pt meganob to a 40 pt terminator is a silly thing to do -- as is any other unit directly to another unit -- because it's the effectiveness of the unit in the context of the faction. For example, a lot of the Skitarii units aren't really super spectacular, but throw in the faction bonuses, and it goes over the top. A lot of Astartes units are pretty average, like Centurions, but toss in some ICs and magic into the mix, and baddabing, you got something special. With tactical terminators, there's really nothing you can do with them to make them worthy of their points -- other than paint them up really nice, and go, ZOMG those rock.

There is often a desire in 40k for people to say, "This faction is too powerful; therefore nothing is broken inside it", when actually, they really should say, "This faction is too powerful, so the game writers should ignore the broken stuff in it and focus on another faction that is really not powerful enough."

But it's all moot. GW will keep the most popular factions at some playable parity, and the less popular factions will slip into disrepair, unless they get lucky at some point, at which time they'll have one or two winning formulae, for a while at least.

 niv-mizzet wrote:


First off, it will not die on one wound models does nothing .

2nd, I play BA. Tell me more about how I'm spoiled rotten because I can take a bunch of free transports or passable formation bonuses.
Maybe you should dial back on the irrational imperium hate.

Iron Hands: 1 Wound Termies would get FNP. Character termies would get It Will Not Die.

Sure I have heard BA are a bottom tier codex, and I am not saying it isn't. I'm not hating on the imperium, just I don't think Termies are priced wrongly or underpowered. They might look that way compared with Eldar, Tau and SM fondue sets, but that isn't a problem with termies that is a problem with the fondue sets. I don't think the answer is more cheese please.

They certainly ARE priced incorrectly, otherwise you'd at least see them on occasion. I can't even name the last time I saw any Terminator variant squad.

 Talys wrote:


Specifically in 40k, comparing a 40 pt meganob to a 40 pt terminator is a silly thing to do -- as is any other unit directly to another unit -- because it's the effectiveness of the unit in the context of the faction.

There really isn't any more context to ork faction to consider when comparing meganobz to other units, they pretty much are what you see. They have a crappy special rule (mob rule) and a decent one ('ere we go).

And while it may or may not be accurate to compare a 40 point 2-w meganob to a 40 point 1-w terminator, I feel as if it is ABSOLUTELY reasonable to compare a 40 point 2w meganob to a theoretical 40 point 2w terminator, which is more or less what this and many other threads like it have argued for some time.

Because a terminator getting 2 wounds, in addition to invluns, relentless, deep strike, ATSKNF, and decent heavy weapon options, for the same price as a meganob, who has none of the aforementioned bonuses except 2w, seems pretty unfair to me.

Except people proposing two wounds for Terminators are trying to make them Centurions, hence why you ignore those suggestions.

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:


First off, it will not die on one wound models does nothing .

2nd, I play BA. Tell me more about how I'm spoiled rotten because I can take a bunch of free transports or passable formation bonuses.
Maybe you should dial back on the irrational imperium hate.

Iron Hands: 1 Wound Termies would get FNP. Character termies would get It Will Not Die.

Sure I have heard BA are a bottom tier codex, and I am not saying it isn't. I'm not hating on the imperium, just I don't think Termies are priced wrongly or underpowered. They might look that way compared with Eldar, Tau and SM fondue sets, but that isn't a problem with termies that is a problem with the fondue sets. I don't think the answer is more cheese please.

The game is only going one way in power scale: up. This means that terminators are underpowered/overcosted. The Eldar/Tau/SM ARE the new standards, not the old crappy models that people keep trotting out.

The assault cannon is a very different weapon than the grav cannon. Give tactical terminators assault cannons ala scatterbikes and make assault terminators cheaper because assault sucks because 7th says so.

Alright try this: In terms of stats a termie is identical to a marine veteran priced at 19pts with 3+ save with chainsword bolt pistol.
So the termie at 35pts is getting a 2+ save, invulnerable save, deepstrike, powerfist & storm bolter upgrade over a veteran for 16pts.

In comparison:

A MAN has the same stats as a Nob which with 4+ eavy armour & slugga and choppa costs 22pts. So the Meganob at 40pts is getting 2+ save & a powerklaw & a TL shoota for an 18pts upgrade over a eavy Nob.

Do any of you see marine veterans as overpriced? If not then how is 16pts too much to pay to turn a veteran into a termie? There is an option to give a vanguard a powerfist which alone costs 15pts...

And that veteran will have a Jump Pack because nobody uses Vanguard without Jump Packs. That alone makes them better. You get your hidden Power Fists and you get them into combat, while at the same time that Vanguard gets different abilities (rerolling failed charges). So I'd be trading that Jump Pack + Rerolling Failed Charges to not be able to sweep, a 2+, a 5++ that will never matter thanks to Vanguard grabbing SS's, and a Storm Bolted that fools you into thinking it has shooting power?

That's pretty bad.

Likewise, the MAN already has 3 attacks, and the TL shooter is just a bit above BS3, which therefore makes their shooting almost the same (though the Terminator is slightly better, and only straight up better as an Imperial Fist). Then there's the option for Combi-Weapons. Options are key.

That's what you fail to realize. I don't need every Vanguard to have a SS or PF or Melta Bomb. I buy exactly what I need to for them to succeed instead of paying for everyone to perform mediocrity. The "Vanguard -> Terminator" price comparison doesn't work because you always bundle for mildly less. That's biker Marines aren't all 34 points.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:


Because a terminator getting 2 wounds, in addition to invluns, relentless, deep strike, ATSKNF, and decent heavy weapon options, for the same price as a meganob, who has none of the aforementioned bonuses except 2w, seems pretty unfair to me.

Meganobz are ALSO BAD. I'd say it's perfectly fair for a unit to be made better than them if the unit wants to be taken seriously. And no one here is disputing that meganobz should also be better, except that the thread title appears to be "terminators," not "meganobz."

I just don't understand this logic of "we must keep all bad units bad because other bad units exist."

Also, there aren't any Chapter Tactics that particularly help Terminators, whereas Vanguard get a bunch of nice things everywhere. MANZ just use the Bully Boyz formation to really fix any issue.

A Vanguard with power fist & stormshield & jumppack costs 47 pts.. That's 12 points over a termie.

 SolarCross wrote:


Do any of you see marine veterans as overpriced?

Yes. rank and file marines are already subpar. Paying extra for extra melee stats and no increase in durability when they already can't make it to melee without charge-from-deepstrike formations is also bad. Sternguard are okay because their ammo is actually a relevant increase in offense that they can actually live long enough to use, but still being a single power armor wound a piece is less than ideal for such expensive guys.

 SolarCross wrote:
A Vanguard with power fist & stormshield & jumppack costs 47 pts.. That's 12 points over a termie.

But why are we equipping everyone likes that?

The comparison to jump pack marines makes it more obvious that the problem is one of deployment and/or movement, not one of durability or offensive capability.

 niv-mizzet wrote:


Meganobz are ALSO BAD. I'd say it's perfectly fair for a unit to be made better than them if the unit wants to be taken seriously. And no one here is disputing that meganobz should also be better, except that the thread title appears to be "terminators," not "meganobz."

I just don't understand this logic of "we must keep all bad units bad because other bad units exist."

But Meganobz aren't bad... at least they look good to Ork players. They have weaknesses and they have strengths. They aren't auto-win units but they have their uses. To me termies look the same if not better. Again SM crying about termies just smacks of Lord Snooty Money Bags complaining about the cost of caviar.

Lord Snooty "(sniff) well why indeed would I want to pay for a deep striking elite soldier with a trifling 2+ armour save and invulnerable save when I can have 10 razorbacks for free?"

Manz are bad because wk and grav exist. Same reason terminators are bad. They just soak twice as much grav. That's the only stat that matters, not rules like atsknf.

BA is bad codex; arguably the worst. Even then , i still think terminators are one of the worst units in the book. That's pretty damn bad.

Martel732 wrote:
Manz are bad because wk and grav exist. Same reason terminators are bad. They just soak twice as much grav. That's the only stat that matters, not rules like atsknf.

In a balanced game (I'm not suggesting 40k is balanced!!!) there should be a way to counter any unit. 2+ saves exist so there should be grav & AP2. Are swarms of low armour grunts bad because flamers exist?

The counters are too cheap and plentiful. And have low opportunity cost.

We made stormbolters have an extra shot at 12". We also allow termies to ride in Rhinos, because why not exactly?

That and we haven't adopted much of the last two editions of dumb rules and codices - I admit that is the biggest issue, really.

 amanita wrote:
We made stormbolters have an extra shot at 12". We also allow termies to ride in Rhinos, because why not exactly?

That and we haven't adopted much of the last two editions of dumb rules and codices - I admit that is the biggest issue, really.

You're not playing the same game at all. But then again, loyalist terminators have always been bad.

MANZ suck because the ork codex munches donkey cave. This thread is more a conversation about a old, beloved SPACE MARINE unit getting the short end of the stick when it comes to internal balance. Orks as a whole need a massive overhaul. So please stop trying to hijack this conversation with the Groans of the Orks, and start another thread about proposed fixes FOR ORKS. I pray SoB and Tyranid players don't bomb your thread.

Centurion buffs to a SM compared to TDA are mostly hard stat buffs. What about some more USRs? I dislike adding more USRs to the pile, but it could be a fluffy distinction.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
But why are they getting FNP in the first place? There's no justification for it.

You mean wearing the most durable personal body armour the Imperium has ever created isn't justification enough for a FNP mechanic, but having a robot hand is? Power armour fluff in general indicates it has numerous life support systems in place, and terminator armour has even more. I think there is plenty of justification for it, simply because the rules don't do a very good job of translating how durable the stuff is supposed to be. If the term "Feel No Pain" bothers you, call it something else, they did the same thing for Necrons, giving them FNP v1.5 to represent the Reanimation Protocols mechanic.

Honestly, its about finding something that makes terminators (of ALL varieties, not just Codex Marines) more in line with their fluff and battlefield role and NOT turning them into smaller, cheaper Centurions. Also, its about finding something that can be easily applied to all codexes that use the armour, so the simpler the rule change, the better the implementation.

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:


Meganobz are ALSO BAD. I'd say it's perfectly fair for a unit to be made better than them if the unit wants to be taken seriously. And no one here is disputing that meganobz should also be better, except that the thread title appears to be "terminators," not "meganobz."

I just don't understand this logic of "we must keep all bad units bad because other bad units exist."

But Meganobz aren't bad...

Yes. They are. If you play in calmer waters where they and marine terminators actually appear on the table, cool. Have fun with that. But don't mistake your meta for how the top of the game is played. And when we're discussing the competitive viability of units, the top of the game is what matters, where you can find riptide wings, wraithknights, and superfriends deathstars, not Jim's garage-table where you see Vindicaire assassins, Tyranids without flyrants, and apparently marine terminators.

Lord Snooty "(sniff) well why indeed would I want to pay for a deep striking elite soldier with a trifling 2+ armour save and invulnerable save when I can have 10 razorbacks for free?"

If you're resorting to bad trolling I think we can safely assume you have nothing of value to add.

 Red Marine wrote:
MANZ suck because the ork codex munches donkey cave. This thread is more a conversation about a old, beloved SPACE MARINE unit getting the short end of the stick when it comes to internal balance. Orks as a whole need a massive overhaul. So please stop trying to hijack this conversation with the Groans of the Orks, and start another thread about proposed fixes FOR ORKS. I pray SoB and Tyranid players don't bomb your thread.

Centurion buffs to a SM compared to TDA are mostly hard stat buffs. What about some more USRs? I dislike adding more USRs to the pile, but it could be a fluffy distinction.

None of the good marine units have marine stats. Except the librarian conclave. I guess Skyhammer ASM and devs.

Martel732 wrote:
The counters are too cheap and plentiful. And have low opportunity cost.

Grav itself isn't all THAT plentiful. it's only about as common as plasma. where the problem arises is shots per weapon. so grav weapons could be nerfed pretty easily by making them rapid fire instead of salvo.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The counters are too cheap and plentiful. And have low opportunity cost.

Grav itself isn't all THAT plentiful. it's only about as common as plasma. where the problem arises is shots per weapon. so grav weapons could be nerfed pretty easily by making them rapid fire instead of salvo.

You can't do that, though because Riptides and WKs exist.

The problem is that MCs and GMCs are so much more durable than terminator squads for not many more points.

I'm away for the week. Would someone be so kind as to give my "BS7" terminator armor idea a shot in say, a 750 game? Take a tactical terminator squad or equivalent, just for thoroughness.


"BS7" armor save for plain terminator armor losing the added roll against ap2/1. So vs bolters 2+/5+. Plasma would be just 2+. Any wargear that increases the invuln save increases the reroll.

I think the big issue here, and it's not unique to Terminators, is that 40k has simply outscaled many units.

Terminators are fearsome in boarding actions and seizing command bunkers, but when the game is increasingly playing at an Epic scale, with things like aircraft, superheavy tanks, and units like Centurions are created to feed that ever increasing scale ("we need something like Terminators...but even more armored...and killier..."), they just get left behind.

Back in 5E, about the hardiest infantry you'd find would be something like Obliterators, basically W2 Terminators, and, through unintended wound allocation gimmicks, Nob Bikers, and that was the upper scale of non-MC unit resiliency, and about the worst thing you'd face in terms of firepower would be an IG army able to throw maybe three dozen S5/6/7 shots across the board and two dozen AP2 weapons in total of all range brackets. Now though...? We've got units that are exponentially more resilient and firepower that such formerly fearsome IG gunlines can't even hope to match.

The problem fundamentally isn't with Terminators, it's that 40k is trying to be too many things and is allowing bloat to overtake once staple units that helped ground the setting, and the moving goal post nullifies the utility of very large numbers of units, be they Terminators or something else.

I know you said it wasn't specific to Terminators, but do note even their best incarnation (4th edition codex with two Assault Cannons) was okay at best. At best.

There's definitely always been an issue with them, even at smaller scales.

With lots of rumors of 8th being announced soonish (probably after the summer of Sigmar), I'm not sure we will see a satisfactory solution to this problem before then. With that said, it's really a points issue, anything is useful if it's cheap enough. As has been suggested before, Drop them to 25 points base, and leave them more or less the same. You'll see some use for them then, because at that price their offense isn't terrible, and the 2+ save and powerfist are probably worth ten points over a standard marine.

The nice thing about point cost changes is there is no rules momentum, thus if they need to be balanced in the next edition you don't have a hangover from the current meta (what do you mean storm bolters aren't salvo 6?). The power of the unit is increased in comparison to other units only in the number you can field, which is a much more mild form of powercreep than spiffy new abilities.

However GW has done some pretty terrible things to the rules this edition, and I think we've reached the end of the line as far as powercreep goes. Take for instance armor and invul saves, when I started in third invul saves were rare, the average space marine army had two people with them, they were also never better than a 4+, and more often than not a 5+. Now 3++ is the new black, which has forced an arms race which ended up with D weapon spam. There is just no more room for the power creep to go up without adding an absurd amount more dice rolls. We are going to have to step back from the current meta, and start anew, and that will be much easier without making the hangover from this meta worse than it has to be.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Yes. They are. If you play in calmer waters where they and marine terminators actually appear on the table, cool. Have fun with that. But don't mistake your meta for how the top of the game is played. And when we're discussing the competitive viability of units, the top of the game is what matters, where you can find riptide wings, wraithknights, and superfriends deathstars, not Jim's garage-table where you see Vindicaire assassins, Tyranids without flyrants, and apparently marine terminators.

Right so we are agreed that Termies are only mild cheddar, in a codex dripping with Blue Stilton and that 2 or maybe 3 other codices have comparable high doses of Blue Stilton. Where we disagree is that you want your mild cheddar to become as stinking as the rest of your cheese whereas I think maybe the Blue Stilton ought to be toned down a bit across the board. Wraithknights exist, sure so they should cost twice as much maybe more, Riptides exist so they should cost what 25% more or whatever. Oh and yeah no free transports for SM. That would be an easier fix than cheesing up every unit of every codex.

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Yes. They are. If you play in calmer waters where they and marine terminators actually appear on the table, cool. Have fun with that. But don't mistake your meta for how the top of the game is played. And when we're discussing the competitive viability of units, the top of the game is what matters, where you can find riptide wings, wraithknights, and superfriends deathstars, not Jim's garage-table where you see Vindicaire assassins, Tyranids without flyrants, and apparently marine terminators.

Right so we are agreed that Termies are only mild cheddar, in a codex dripping with Blue Stilton and that 2 or maybe 3 other codices have comparable high doses of Blue Stilton. Where we disagree is that you want your mild cheddar to become as stinking as the rest of your cheese whereas I think maybe the Blue Stilton ought to be toned down a bit across the board. Wraithknights exist, sure so they should cost twice as much maybe more, Riptides exist so they should cost what 25% as much or whatever. Oh and yeah no free transports for SM. That would be an easier fix than cheesing up every unit of every codex.

Your fix is NOT happening. The only hope for units left behind is to get cheesed up.

Well Martel, There is no where left for them to go to get cheesed up, it won't be long before everyone is rocking a 2++ and bolters are D weapons. That's probably an exaggeration, but the current level of power creep is unsustainable. If the spoilers for the battle for Verdos are any indication 40K is in for some big changes, and those changes look like a huge deescalation for all factions.

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Yes. They are. If you play in calmer waters where they and marine terminators actually appear on the table, cool. Have fun with that. But don't mistake your meta for how the top of the game is played. And when we're discussing the competitive viability of units, the top of the game is what matters, where you can find riptide wings, wraithknights, and superfriends deathstars, not Jim's garage-table where you see Vindicaire assassins, Tyranids without flyrants, and apparently marine terminators.

Right so we are agreed that Termies are only mild cheddar, in a codex dripping with Blue Stilton and that 2 or maybe 3 other codices have comparable high doses of Blue Stilton. Where we disagree is that you want your mild cheddar to become as stinking as the rest of your cheese whereas I think maybe the Blue Stilton ought to be toned down a bit across the board. Wraithknights exist, sure so they should cost twice as much maybe more, Riptides exist so they should cost what 25% more or whatever. Oh and yeah no free transports for SM. That would be an easier fix than cheesing up every unit of every codex.

Wait, you think terminators are cheesy? Yeah I think we're done here. Irrational Imperium hate strikes again.

I'm a Dark Angels player, so I've tried REALLY HARD to make Terminators work, and they just don't. I'm not talking about an ubercheesed tournament setting either. I play with a group with house rules that tone those shenanigans down (the most significant of which is a 40% Troops requirement). Even in that environment, Terminators just don't work. For my money, the main problem with Terminators isn't their vulnerability to AP2, it's that too many armies can spam wounds in a way that wasn't possible when GW established the price for Terminators back in 3rd edition. So, they don't work in a tournament setting AND they don't work in a casual setting.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
For my money, the main problem with Terminators isn't their vulnerability to AP2, it's that too many armies can spam wounds in a way that wasn't possible when GW established the price for Terminators back in 3rd edition.

This. I witnessed some Dark Angels Terminators on the field of battle as late as last weekend, and they weren't really very useful. Enemy units could put so much shooting on them that many fell to that, and then faster assault units put in even more wounds. Terminators just aren't that impressive anymore when many armies can throw scores of wounds at them before they even get to try something.

 Grimgold wrote:
Well Martel, There is no where left for them to go to get cheesed up, it won't be long before everyone is rocking a 2++ and bolters are D weapons. That's probably an exaggeration, but the current level of power creep is unsustainable. If the spoilers for the battle for Verdos are any indication 40K is in for some big changes, and those changes look like a huge deescalation for all factions.

Just might be a slight exaggeration. You think? The current power creep is NOT unsustainable because math is not finite. There might be a 3rd ed style rewrite, but short of that, there is only one way to go: up.

My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

 SolarCross wrote:

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

Really? So they're actually somewhat durable against the worst ballistic skill army in the game shooting their basic infantry guns? Kind of cherry-picking evidence there aren't you?

Even with your example, a set of 25 shoota boys (175 points) will kill 4.5 termies, (AKA sometimes the entire unit, sometimes all but one,) in a single shoot+charge turn, y'know, since they're actually a close combat army, and that's not even considering a nob with klaw which would be more efficient at it than his points in shoota boys.

They're supposed to be miniature tanks. All I want is for opponents to actually feel the need to use the correct weaponry on them. Currently they can use whatever weaponry they please, anti-infantry or anti-tank, and it all works. The terminators die to both. This is part of why meganobz are a bit better: they're twice as resilient to small arms, and as such they can be sent after small arms-wielding enemies while the rest of your army focuses on the heavy weapons that could kill the manz efficiently. Terminators can't do that. The small arms unit will butcher them just like the heavy weapons will.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

Really? So they're actually somewhat durable against the worst ballistic skill army in the game shooting their basic infantry guns? Kind of cherry-picking evidence there aren't you?

Even with your example, a set of 25 shoota boys (175 points) will kill 4.5 termies, (AKA sometimes the entire unit, sometimes all but one,) in a single shoot+charge turn, y'know, since they're actually a close combat army, and that's not even considering a nob with klaw which would be more efficient at it than his points in shoota boys.

They're supposed to be miniature tanks. All I want is for opponents to actually feel the need to use the correct weaponry on them. Currently they can use whatever weaponry they please, anti-infantry or anti-tank, and it all works. The terminators die to both. This is part of why meganobz are a bit better: they're twice as resilient to small arms, and as such they can be sent after small arms-wielding enemies while the rest of your army focuses on the heavy weapons that could kill the manz efficiently. Terminators can't do that. The small arms unit will butcher them just like the heavy weapons will.

Okay how about 30 Guard Lasguns with an officer to give the all "first rank, second rank fire". Works out at 1 dead termie again. If they shot at 30 Guard that would be 10 dead guard. 10 guard is worth 1.5 termies.

I don't think they are meant to be miniature tanks, they are meant to be elite marines with a better armour save. They aren't and shouldn't be immune to small arms but using small arms against them is and should be inefficient.

All they need is to be able to assault out of deep strike.

All they NEED is better offensive power. The durability is meh for the price, but the firepower is insulting for the price, and the melee power is insulting for the price.

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

Really? So they're actually somewhat durable against the worst ballistic skill army in the game shooting their basic infantry guns? Kind of cherry-picking evidence there aren't you?

Even with your example, a set of 25 shoota boys (175 points) will kill 4.5 termies, (AKA sometimes the entire unit, sometimes all but one,) in a single shoot+charge turn, y'know, since they're actually a close combat army, and that's not even considering a nob with klaw which would be more efficient at it than his points in shoota boys.

They're supposed to be miniature tanks. All I want is for opponents to actually feel the need to use the correct weaponry on them. Currently they can use whatever weaponry they please, anti-infantry or anti-tank, and it all works. The terminators die to both. This is part of why meganobz are a bit better: they're twice as resilient to small arms, and as such they can be sent after small arms-wielding enemies while the rest of your army focuses on the heavy weapons that could kill the manz efficiently. Terminators can't do that. The small arms unit will butcher them just like the heavy weapons will.

Okay how about 30 Guard Lasguns with an officer to give the all "first rank, second rank fire". Works out at 1 dead termie again. If they shot at 30 Guard that would be 10 dead guard. 10 guard is worth 1.5 termies.

I don't think they are meant to be miniature tanks, they are meant to be elite marines with a better armour save. They aren't and shouldn't be immune to small arms but using small arms against them is and should be inefficient.

All they need is to be able to assault out of deep strike.

Wat.
First- that guard figure is outside rapid fire. It stands to reason that if the termies are trying to close the gap, they're taking close range fire, which means 2.5 dead termies in a single shooting phase from that one unit.

Second- ten wounds on counter-shooting? Maybe you aren't aware of storm bolter stats? If the termies shoot first they kill a piddly 4 guard, 3 if they're standing in bushes. 2 if they are manning a defense line or in ruins. That is absolutely not even close to paying for a termie. Please do your math correctly before presenting it as fact.

You don't think they're meant to be miniature tanks? In tactical dreadnought armor? Are you aware of what a dreadnought is?

Martel732 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Well Martel, There is no where left for them to go to get cheesed up, it won't be long before everyone is rocking a 2++ and bolters are D weapons. That's probably an exaggeration, but the current level of power creep is unsustainable. If the spoilers for the battle for Verdos are any indication 40K is in for some big changes, and those changes look like a huge deescalation for all factions.

Just might be a slight exaggeration. You think? The current power creep is NOT unsustainable because math is not finite. There might be a 3rd ed style rewrite, but short of that, there is only one way to go: up.

Math is infinite, but D6s are not. Look at the 4 editions long arms race between Armor saves/invul saves vs. AP/str D, If that arms race is to continue into the new edition we are going to have to add tertiary rolls. How long do you think we can keep adding librarius conclaves and grav before the game is so bloated that it becomes unplayable. We need a rewrite, bad.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

Really? So they're actually somewhat durable against the worst ballistic skill army in the game shooting their basic infantry guns? Kind of cherry-picking evidence there aren't you?

Even with your example, a set of 25 shoota boys (175 points) will kill 4.5 termies, (AKA sometimes the entire unit, sometimes all but one,) in a single shoot+charge turn, y'know, since they're actually a close combat army, and that's not even considering a nob with klaw which would be more efficient at it than his points in shoota boys.

They're supposed to be miniature tanks. All I want is for opponents to actually feel the need to use the correct weaponry on them. Currently they can use whatever weaponry they please, anti-infantry or anti-tank, and it all works. The terminators die to both. This is part of why meganobz are a bit better: they're twice as resilient to small arms, and as such they can be sent after small arms-wielding enemies while the rest of your army focuses on the heavy weapons that could kill the manz efficiently. Terminators can't do that. The small arms unit will butcher them just like the heavy weapons will.

Okay how about 30 Guard Lasguns with an officer to give the all "first rank, second rank fire". Works out at 1 dead termie again. If they shot at 30 Guard that would be 10 dead guard. 10 guard is worth 1.5 termies.

I don't think they are meant to be miniature tanks, they are meant to be elite marines with a better armour save. They aren't and shouldn't be immune to small arms but using small arms against them is and should be inefficient.

All they need is to be able to assault out of deep strike.

Wat.
First- that guard figure is outside rapid fire. It stands to reason that if the termies are trying to close the gap, they're taking close range fire, which means 2.5 dead termies in a single shooting phase from that one unit.

Second- ten wounds on counter-shooting? Maybe you aren't aware of storm bolter stats? If the termies shoot first they kill a piddly 4 guard, 3 if they're standing in bushes. 2 if they are manning a defense line or in ruins. That is absolutely not even close to paying for a termie. Please do your math correctly before presenting it as fact.

You don't think they're meant to be miniature tanks? In tactical dreadnought armor? Are you aware of what a dreadnought is?

The math is right just I wasn't clear enough for a space marine player to understand the basic assumptions in this hypothetical scenario. If one understands tactics then one wouldn't deep strike an elite close combat unit with the intention of purposely tar-pitting itself with a guard blob, quite to the contrary one would deep strike with the intention of murdering a company command squad, fisting up the rear of a baneblade (I understand space marines do love a good fisting in the rear) or mangling some backfield artillery or AA guns. Thus the termies would be attempting to deep strike on a point out of range of blobs or at least outside of rapid fire range. The Guard blob is attempting to shoot them off the map before the termies do their fisting thing on something precious and breakable but who are not themselves the target of the the termies. Even if the Termie player was so tactically inept (SM player so actually quite probable) as to plant himself right inside rapidfire range of 30 guard and the guard got off an order to for first rank, second rank fire that is still only 1.5 dead termies not 2.5 as you claimed (so your math is incorrect).

Secondly when I said "If they shot at 30 Guard that would be 10 dead guard. 10 guard is worth 1.5 termies." I was not refering to the termies counter shooting but to what 30 guard would do shooting 30 guard in order to illustrate the benefit that termie armour is bringing to their survivability verses small arms just as I did with the ork example actually. Incidentally inside rapid fire range 30 guard would kill 15 guard with first rank, second rank fire.

I have another mathhammer for you. SMs are not the only ones with deep striking close combat specialists which are not invincible to enemy fire. Orks have stormboyz. Stormboyz rock but they have the same problem that termies have in 7th ed. After deepstriking they have to stand there and let every enemy in range fill em full of lead before they get stuck in choppin. The resilence against enemy shooting that a termie achieves through matchless armour the orks do with a pile of bodies. So how does that work out for them? Well for fair comparison we should see what 30 guard with first rank, second rank fire would do to them (outside of rapid fire range) and well lucky for the stormboyz their fabulous 6+ armour save is actually relevant against lasguns. Still the result is 8.25 dead stormboyz. point wise a termie is worth nearly 4 stormboyz. So the stormboyz would take the equivalent of over 2 termies worth of causalties to the 1 dead termie the termies would suffer.

It is actually a little harder on the stormboyz than even this suggests because one obvious way to mitigate taking losses through shooting after deep strike is to deep strike somewhere out of LOS of those that could do you the most harm but that is much harder to do for a big pile of bodies (pointwise 19 stormboyz is about 5 termies) than just 5 extravagantly armoured elites. Another thing is that while stormboyz would murder a company command squad and gaurd blob they can't even scratch the paint of any vehicle let alone a baneblade, though the one powerklaw they could take might do a bit.

So don't avoid the issue: why not let termies and stormboyz do what they were made to do, assault straight out of deep strike? Wouldn't that also take wraithknights and riptides down a peg or two?

Terminators are especially embarrassing because they are less durable than a regular marine to anything other than AP3, and that's only if the marine is in the open.

Dial the snark back about 3 notches, please.

 SolarCross wrote:
The math is right just I wasn't clear enough for a space marine player to understand the basic assumptions in this hypothetical scenario... ...Even if the Termie player was so tactically inept (SM player so actually quite probable)...

My instincts seem to have been correct when you were arguing using incorrect math and incorrect knowledge of the unit in question. With this post you have lost any credibility as your entire opinion seems to be heavily influenced by a hatred of all things relating to space marines and the players who play them. I don't know if maybe you were the victim of a marine TFG or what, and frankly I don't care. Anyone afflicted with this kind of jaded attitude cannot have a rational discussion, so welcome to an ignore list. I don't need to be speaking with people who hate me because of which GW models I enjoy painting and putting on the table.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
The math is right just I wasn't clear enough for a space marine player to understand the basic assumptions in this hypothetical scenario... ...Even if the Termie player was so tactically inept (SM player so actually quite probable)...

My instincts seem to have been correct when you were arguing using incorrect math and incorrect knowledge of the unit in question. With this post you have lost any credibility as your entire opinion seems to be heavily influenced by a hatred of all things relating to space marines and the players who play them. I don't know if maybe you were the victim of a marine TFG or what, and frankly I don't care. Anyone afflicted with this kind of jaded attitude cannot have a rational discussion, so welcome to an ignore list. I don't need to be speaking with people who hate me because of which GW models I enjoy painting and putting on the table.

This, I thought exactly the same thing. Marine players are a large part of the community and to put them down in the way you have done is condescending to them and makes you look stupid.
Changing the rules to allow assaults from deepstrike won't fix terminators, fluff wise it doesnt make sense not to be able to but balance wise it does

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
The math is right just I wasn't clear enough for a space marine player to understand the basic assumptions in this hypothetical scenario... ...Even if the Termie player was so tactically inept (SM player so actually quite probable)...

My instincts seem to have been correct when you were arguing using incorrect math and incorrect knowledge of the unit in question. With this post you have lost any credibility as your entire opinion seems to be heavily influenced by a hatred of all things relating to space marines and the players who play them. I don't know if maybe you were the victim of a marine TFG or what, and frankly I don't care. Anyone afflicted with this kind of jaded attitude cannot have a rational discussion, so welcome to an ignore list. I don't need to be speaking with people who hate me because of which GW models I enjoy painting and putting on the table.

Okay fair enough, I guess I do have some apologies to offer for two things. One, I did make a mistake not in the math but in thinking the invulnerable save could be had in addition to the armour save instead as an alternative save. I freely admit that makes me look stupid. The other thing was dropping some snarkyness in with my argument. It was not motivated by hatred though, just bad manners. I'm still a bit new here and haven't gotten use to the nettiquette of dakka. On other forums that I hung out on a high level of snarkiness was de rigeur. So sorry for all that.

Just to be completely transparent, terminators die at exactly half the rate of marines to most small arms fire. However, even at 35 ppm, you are looking at losing 5.6 pts per incoming wound vs 4.7 pts per incoming wound with regular marines. Against AP 2, you are losing 23 pts per incoming wound vs 14 pts per incoming wound with regular marines. In cover, that goes down to 9.3 pts per incoming wound.

Martel732 wrote:
Just to be completely transparent, terminators die at exactly half the rate of marines to most small arms fire. However, even at 35 ppm, you are looking at losing 5.6 pts per incoming wound vs 4.7 pts per incoming wound with regular marines. Against AP 2, you are losing 23 pts per incoming wound vs 14 pts per incoming wound with regular marines. In cover, that goes down to 9.3 pts per incoming wound.

Terminators are meant to fill the roll of durable hold the line type unit. Sure they will eventually grinde down an enemy, but exceptional ranged damage is left to centurions and heavy weapons teams.

If terminator armour allowed you to reroll all failed saves, and no other changes were made they would be significantly better from a durability stand point.

Lets face it, storm bolters are nothing special, and I personally would prefer to see terminators cost go up by 5-10 ppm but grant them a significant buff to durability. That way they arent centurions, or artificer armour, and it would make taking the armour enticing for characters again.

If a straight up reroll is too much, make any attack that is instant death negates the reroll, that way anti tank weaponry is preferred, but weapons like plasma and xenos plasma will be slightly less effective.

Bam terminator armour is relevant again.

EDIT: Storm shield upgrade gives a 3++ invulnv, can not be rerolled as it is the armour itself that can reroll saves.

It's kinda in the vein of what you're talking about but I've always thought to improve durability you should get to take the invulnerable save and then take your armor save against any wounds you failed stop... Sorta like a re-roll against the small stuff. Terminators would become more durable against many things but would still have vulnerability against the things that can already kill them.

Storm bolters become assault 3 (being the link between boltguns and assault cannons), and terminators can re-roll all saves. Increase cost by 5 pts per model. I really like the idea of Terminator armour being relevant for characters again. Konrax that's a great idea. Maybe +10 pts for characters to take the armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Storm bolters are fine as a 5pts upgrade when they replace a bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So that's:

• Storm bolters are assault 3 for no extra cost (for power armour as well).

• Terminator armour allows re-rolls for the 2+/5++ it provides (not additional wargear). Re-roll negated by instant death.
• +5 pts for terminators. +10 pts for TDA as character wargear.

Terminators fixed! High five Konrax!

I really like the "re-roll, negated by instant death" idea; always thought a re-roll was going a bit far, but this mitigates against it nicely.

Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

I agree, but that would mean less space marine models to be sold by GW!!!

So based on that I doubt it would ever happen.

 Konrax wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

I agree, but that would mean less space marine models to be sold by GW!!!

So based on that I doubt it would ever happen.

If that happened all the old termies sat on shelves would once more march off to war on the table tops. But we already own then... There's the problem!

Many of the new players dont have terminators because they are bad, which means they will be hot sellers!!!

Boy, it's easy to be a critic, but hands up: Who honestly thinks that giving terminator models a free, base rerollable 2+ armor save is anywhere remotely in the realm of not-completely-broken?

Even if it's restricted to the realm of S4 or less or non-instant death.......that's still pants-on-head-crazy AMAZINGLY good.

I mean, I can get a rerollable 2+ armor with DLS+mega armor, but I don't generally like to, because 2+ rerollable saves aren't fun to play with or against, much less on entire squads of it.

I remember back in 6th playing against eldar jetbike spam with 2+ rerollables, and it's just not fun.

I will say that I honestly don't know how to improve terminators, though. Give them a free extra toughness or FNP, and chaos will complain, and rightfully so - why should loyalist marines essentially get chaos marks for free?

Give them an extra wound for free, and ork players will complain, for similar reasons.

Give them either for more points, and SM players will complain about paying more to make a bad unit better.

I'd love to provide some constructive criticism, but I honestly have no idea to improve terminators that wouldn't make them completely broken compared to other factions similar units.

But.......come on guys. Lets be real. Base 2+ rerollable armor saves? Are you guys serious?

Only if you use small arms.
Terminators are meant to be immune to small arms, right? Well 2+ rerollable against less than S4 is pretty close to immune. Don't want to give them rerolls? Use stronger guns. Buy plasma.

Not to mention that you would be paying a lot of points for a 1W model.
If 75 is the base cost, you are paying 375 points for 5 wounds worth of models, and you can't add more to it.

Its not as broken as you think, and its no-where near as ridiculous as 2+ rerollable jet bikes, which were relatively cheap, fast moving, had 2+ cover saves (huge difference. You can ignore armor relatively easily. Ignoring cover is a little trickier) and could be fielded in numbers.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Boy, it's easy to be a critic, but hands up: Who honestly thinks that giving terminator models a free, base rerollable 2+ armor save is anywhere remotely in the realm of not-completely-broken?

Even if it's restricted to the realm of S4 or less or non-instant death.......that's still pants-on-head-crazy AMAZINGLY good.

I mean, I can get a rerollable 2+ armor with DLS+mega armor, but I don't generally like to, because 2+ rerollable saves aren't fun to play with or against, much less on entire squads of it.

I remember back in 6th playing against eldar jetbike spam with 2+ rerollables, and it's just not fun.

I will say that I honestly don't know how to improve terminators, though. Give them a free extra toughness or FNP, and chaos will complain, and rightfully so - why should loyalist marines essentially get chaos marks for free?

Give them an extra wound for free, and ork players will complain, for similar reasons.

Give them either for more points, and SM players will complain about paying more to make a bad unit better.

I'd love to provide some constructive criticism, but I honestly have no idea to improve terminators that wouldn't make them completely broken compared to other factions similar units.

But.......come on guys. Lets be real. Base 2+ rerollable armor saves? Are you guys serious?

(Hand up) Yo!

Bro, immunity to s4 is nothing special. Grotesques from dark eldar in...3rd edition or so had complete immunity to guns s4 and below, and that was back when you couldn't shoot through units.

I think you're seriously overestimating the effect of increasing their durability. They still shoot bolter shots and walk 6" a turn. That alone is a huge disadvantage in today's game. A terminator unit with veil of time for fully rerollable saves against everything isn't even that competitive. They're bad enough that pushing them to be a viable choice in a serious game is going to require a huge change.

I'm of the opinion that +1w and T for no point change would put them on the map as a durable area holder unit that could deep strike to double as a decent distraction carnifex for their points, while maintaining their fluff image as slow bulky veterans wearing some of the best protective armor the universe has to offer. (Seriously why do you become tougher by sitting on a bike saddle but not by stepping into a small walking tank-suit!?)

If I actually wanted to push them to be "eldar-tier" competitive above all else, they'd probably need special storm bolters that are assault cannon statted complete with rending, special rules to make them always obsec, teleport movement, and the sergeant carries a vortex grenade. Because speed and offensive power is where the top units shine.

In terms of their development history and fluff, aren't Tac Terminators essentially an overgrown Tac Squad?

Give them the option to take a Grav Cannon and be chosen as troops, now they are relevant in three extra ways (mandatory CAD choices, Obsec, Firepower). You get 2x Relentless, Deep Striking Grav Cannons for every 3x Grav Cannons deployed by Drop Pod Tac Marines. That seems fair.

Despite being troops, you'd still have Assault Terminators and why not add Devastator Terminators who can take 4x Special Weapons. Ha ha.

Is the problem really their statline? If they weren't competing against firepower units with outdated weapons, you wouldn't need to push their stats and special rules through the roof to compensate.

Improvements should emphasize the veteran nature of Terminators. These guys aren't just well armored - they're the chapter elite. 1st Company vets should get their own Combat Doctrine just like the Battle Companies.

Terminator Doctrine: May be enacted at the start of your turn in addition to any other Combat Doctrines enacted. Affected models can re-roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Save rolls of 1 until the end of your opponent's next turn.  Affected models in Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, and Cataphractii Terminator Squads including any affected models with the Independent Character special rule that have joined those squads, can instead re-roll all failed To Hit, To Wound and Armour Save rolls they make until the end of your opponent's next turn and may charge even if they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve this turn.

Granted by:
Can use once if your army contains at least 1 Terminator Squad, Terminator Assault Squad, Cataphractii Terminator Squad, Vanguard Veteran Squad or Sternguard Veteran Squad; affects all Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, Cataphractii Terminator Squads, Vanguard Veteran Squads, and Sternguard Veteran Squads when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 1st Company Task Force; affects all 1st Company Task Forces when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 Ravenhawk Assault Group; affects all Ravenhawk Assault Groups when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 Shadow Force; affects all Shadow Forces when used.

Can use twice more if your army contains at least 1 Strike Force Ultra; affects all Strike Force Ultras in your army when used.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

10 man squads isn't that big when you realize that guard deploy 30+ men in the same CAD slot.

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

10 man squads isn't that big when you realize that guard deploy 30+ men in the same CAD slot.

I wouldnt want to change their main statline too much tbh, they are still marines, maybe more skilled but more or less still marines.

WS5 and BS5 would be a nice buff, it would trandlate into more hits and damage with range and melee without having to change any of the weapon profiles.

Give them the reroll saves as long as it isnt instant death, storm shields cant be rerolled, but other upgrades like Iron halo can be rerolled. Eternal warrior doesnt change if you get a reroll or not.

Change terminator armour from relentless to slow and purposeful, this way they can't perform run moves and it will allow kiting as an option and make ranged terminators more viable.

Make terminator armour cost 15 additional points above its current cost for HQs, and make all terminator units 12 points more base. Terminators that are alreafy ws and/or bs5 increase by 8 points each.

Give terminators objective secured, and now you have a very serious objective holding unit that would be painful to remove.

Deep striking them to sit on objectives makes them a great counter for bike and fast spam, and while their fire power is still relatively low and short ranged, and their movement is limited they should be good without feeling over powered.

I don't think the Terminator statline needs to change much. I could see and go for a change to terminator armor to give a chance to compete against bike upgrades and give terminators more firepower to fall in line with their cost (and again make them competitive against bikes). Ideally longer range weapons that are heavy or salvo. I would say have terminator armor grant +1 T and give 2+/5+ or improve invulnerable saves by +1. which ever is better up to a max of 3+. I would give access to grav guns, maybe grav cannons. I would have terminators (power weapon and storm bolter or twin lightning claws) start in at 25 points. The power fist would add 5 points, TH/SS would weigh in at 35 points ppm. I would probably tweak the cost of upgrades like the cyclone ect to be 5 points less and allow up to 2 specials per 5 men. I think this is all reasonable considering how bad a 6 inch move is especially combined with bulky and only being able to deepstrike or take an overpriced box for a transport. I think the Grey Knights are about right where they are with what they have though the ability for them to blow themselves up is silly and might be better off removed when casting certain specific psychic powers. Storm bolters should probably become salvo 2/3 or 2/4 with no loss to range regardless of movement.

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

10 man squads isn't that big when you realize that guard deploy 30+ men in the same CAD slot.

Which are organized in 10 man squads.
Also, aren't fire warriors and Eldar / Dark Eldar troop choices max squad size 10? Aren't there more Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar than marines?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Improvements should emphasize the veteran nature of Terminators. These guys aren't just well armored - they're the chapter elite. 1st Company vets should get their own Combat Doctrine just like the Battle Companies.

Terminator Doctrine: May be enacted at the start of your turn in addition to any other Combat Doctrines enacted. Affected models can re-roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Save rolls of 1 until the end of your opponent's next turn.  Affected models in Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, and Cataphractii Terminator Squads including any affected models with the Independent Character special rule that have joined those squads, can instead re-roll all failed To Hit, To Wound and Armour Save rolls they make until the end of your opponent's next turn and may charge even if they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve this turn.

Granted by:
Can use once if your army contains at least 1 Terminator Squad, Terminator Assault Squad, Cataphractii Terminator Squad, Vanguard Veteran Squad or Sternguard Veteran Squad; affects all Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, Cataphractii Terminator Squads, Vanguard Veteran Squads, and Sternguard Veteran Squads when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 1st Company Task Force; affects all 1st Company Task Forces when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 Ravenhawk Assault Group; affects all Ravenhawk Assault Groups when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 Shadow Force; affects all Shadow Forces when used.

Can use twice more if your army contains at least 1 Strike Force Ultra; affects all Strike Force Ultras in your army when used.

Doctrines like that are stupid and promote more useless book-keeping, just give them the flat armor and invul reroll and call it a day.

I don't think an upcosted model with the marine statline is every going to work in modern 40K. It never really did. Ever.

 NorseSig wrote:
Ideally longer range weapons that are heavy or salvo.... I would give access to grav guns, maybe grav cannons.

I don't understand the logic of why they can't access the same equipment options as Sterngard and Vanguard.

Out of curiosity -- given access to EVERYTHING in the theoretical 1st Company arsenal, how would you guys loadout a Tac Terminator squad?

Assault cannons everywhere. Because gatling is cool.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:
Ideally longer range weapons that are heavy or salvo.... I would give access to grav guns, maybe grav cannons.

I don't understand the logic of why they can't access the same equipment options as Sterngard and Vanguard.

Out of curiosity -- given access to EVERYTHING in the theoretical 1st Company arsenal, how would you guys loadout a Tac Terminator squad?

Competitively? Probably heavy flamers and give them a FA pod to ride so I can have reliable positioning after the deep strike. Without a pod? Assault cannons assuming you mean to include those (as the other vets can't take them,) or at least standard bolters with vet ammo instead of storm bolters.

You can't just give them Special Ammo, because that's the gimmick for Sternguard.

Still would rather see the changes I suggested, would make them have a role.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't just give them Special Ammo, because that's the gimmick for Sternguard.

Can you think of any other way to make the stormbolter not suck?

Being able to exchange the SB for Sternguard Bolters is clever. I didn't actually think of that.

What's your opinion on the price/value ratio here?

- 325pts for 4x Terminators w/Grav Cannons, a Combi-Grav and DS, compared to 320pts for 4x Grav Cents
- 265pts for 4x Terminators w/HF, a Combi-Flamer, Chainfist, and Drop Pod, compared to 275pts for an Ironclad w/2x HF, Drop Pod, and Assault Squad w/2x Flamers and JPs
- 255pts for 4x Terminators w/Assault Cannons, compared to 260pts for 4x Land Speeders w/Assault Cannons, HB
- 8x Sternguard before upgrades, versus 5x Terminators w/Sternguard Bolters

Given the firepower is essentially identical in most examples, maybe it's instructive of the actual worth of the Terminator platform.

1+ armor?

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't just give them Special Ammo, because that's the gimmick for Sternguard.

Can you think of any other way to make the stormbolter not suck?

I'd like to make Storm Bolters S5 and let the Tactical Terminators have access to two heavy weapons immediately.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Boy, it's easy to be a critic, but hands up: Who honestly thinks that giving terminator models a free, base rerollable 2+ armor save is anywhere remotely in the realm of not-completely-broken?

Even if it's restricted to the realm of S4 or less or non-instant death.......that's still pants-on-head-crazy AMAZINGLY good.

I mean, I can get a rerollable 2+ armor with DLS+mega armor, but I don't generally like to, because 2+ rerollable saves aren't fun to play with or against, much less on entire squads of it.

I remember back in 6th playing against eldar jetbike spam with 2+ rerollables, and it's just not fun.

I will say that I honestly don't know how to improve terminators, though. Give them a free extra toughness or FNP, and chaos will complain, and rightfully so - why should loyalist marines essentially get chaos marks for free?

Give them an extra wound for free, and ork players will complain, for similar reasons.

Give them either for more points, and SM players will complain about paying more to make a bad unit better.

I'd love to provide some constructive criticism, but I honestly have no idea to improve terminators that wouldn't make them completely broken compared to other factions similar units.

But.......come on guys. Lets be real. Base 2+ rerollable armor saves? Are you guys serious?

Compared to how much AP2 is out there these days this really wouldn't be that big a deal.

I think one of the main issues here is that you guys are trying to fix Terminators when the reality is that the game itself needs fixing. It's become a jumbled mess of a thousand special rules...and increasingly large models which inundates the game with a ridiculous amount of super high power weaponry.

The game is broken, not the unit.

 Elbows wrote:
I think one of the main issues here is that you guys are trying to fix Terminators when the reality is that the game itself needs fixing. It's become a jumbled mess of a thousand special rules...and increasingly large models which inundates the game with a ridiculous amount of super high power weaponry.

The game is broken, not the unit.

The unit wasn't good to begin with...

Nonsense. When do you consider it "began"? 2nd edition etc. terminators were plenty powerful/dangerous/durable.

Seeing as people here mostly agree that Terminators were average in 2nd, I can guess around that time period.

 Elbows wrote:
The game is broken, not the unit.

Ha ha. I should make a dakkadakka guide to "fixing units".

Unit dies easily? Add 1T, +1W, or FNP
Unit has mediocre firepower? Add Shred or Assault 3
Unit is melee? Allow charge from DS or assaulting from transport
Unit has random psychic powers? Allow it to choose powers
Unit is undercosted MC/GMC? Turn it into a walker
Unit is CSM? Refer to 3.5th era codex, complain at length about GW, receive mod warning after enthusiastically debating merits of Mutilators
Unit is Blood Angel faction? You should probably just proxy as Space Marines
Unit is Eldar/Necron/Tau? L2P please

That about covers it. We're well on our way to creating a better 40k

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seeing as people here mostly agree that Terminators were average in 2nd, I can guess around that time period.

Sure...seems legit. You guys have some weird memories.

I do agree the problem with termies can be summed up as "too much high AP weaponry" AP2 and even AP3 should be kinda rare. the problem with massed fire is a differant problem all together and mostly comes from the upscaling. one fix might be to give termies a special ability that lets them take an armor save and an invul save vs the same attack.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
The game is broken, not the unit.

Ha ha. I should make a dakkadakka guide to "fixing units".

Unit dies easily? Add 1T, +1W, or FNP
Unit has mediocre firepower? Add Shred or Assault 3
Unit is melee? Allow charge from DS or assaulting from transport
Unit has random psychic powers? Allow it to choose powers
Unit is undercosted MC/GMC? Turn it into a walker
Unit is CSM? Refer to 3.5th era codex, complain at length about GW, receive mod warning after enthusiastically debating merits of Mutilators
Unit is Blood Angel faction? You should probably just proxy as Space Marines
Unit is Eldar/Necron/Tau? L2P please

That about covers it. We're well on our way to creating a better 40k

This is true. I'd say little of this forum knows how to balance things.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
The game is broken, not the unit.

Ha ha. I should make a dakkadakka guide to "fixing units".

Unit dies easily? Add 1T, +1W, or FNP
Unit has mediocre firepower? Add Shred or Assault 3
Unit is melee? Allow charge from DS or assaulting from transport
Unit has random psychic powers? Allow it to choose powers
Unit is undercosted MC/GMC? Turn it into a walker
Unit is CSM? Refer to 3.5th era codex, complain at length about GW, receive mod warning after enthusiastically debating merits of Mutilators
Unit is Blood Angel faction? You should probably just proxy as Space Marines
Unit is Eldar/Necron/Tau? L2P please

That about covers it. We're well on our way to creating a better 40k

Truer words have not been spoken.

But if you did that, then we'd have nothing to complain argue talk about!

 Elbows wrote:
Nonsense. When do you consider it "began"? 2nd edition etc. terminators were plenty powerful/dangerous/durable.

No, they weren't. Stormbolters were still terrible, and krak missiles and lascannons turned them into soup. As did genestealers.

Martel732 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Nonsense. When do you consider it "began"? 2nd edition etc. terminators were plenty powerful/dangerous/durable.

No, they weren't. Stormbolters were still terrible, and krak missiles and lascannons turned them into soup. As did genestealers.

I'll give "storm bolters were always terrible", but tda saves were bad? 3+ on 2d6 was pretty sweet. I used to walk Grey Knights through Squat plasma cannon fire.

 Red Marine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Nonsense. When do you consider it "began"? 2nd edition etc. terminators were plenty powerful/dangerous/durable.

No, they weren't. Stormbolters were still terrible, and krak missiles and lascannons turned them into soup. As did genestealers.

I'll give "storm bolters were always terrible", but tda saves were bad? 3+ on 2d6 was pretty sweet. I used to walk Grey Knights through Squat plasma cannon fire.

They weren't bad, but lack of offense always doomed them. Plus, if you pointed the right weapons at them, they still died quickly. Plasma was very different in 2nd.

 Konrax wrote:
Terminators are meant to fill the roll of durable hold the line type unit. Sure they will eventually grinde down an enemy, but exceptional ranged damage is left to centurions and heavy weapons teams.

They've absolutely never ever been meant to fill that role. They've always been THE elite strike unit.

I'll say again that the solution is no to make them better defensively or offensively, but to make them better at maneuvering, and especially straight after teleporting. To me, this has kinda been done with some formations already, so my proposed solution is to let them make an initiative check. If successful, they can either run and shoot, or charge from deep strike, depending on the flavour of terminator. That way, deep striking into a dangerous position is still very risky - you MIGHT get to charge, but you might fail and get shot to hell... so where do you want to deploy?

 Fifty wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Terminators are meant to fill the roll of durable hold the line type unit. Sure they will eventually grinde down an enemy, but exceptional ranged damage is left to centurions and heavy weapons teams.

They've absolutely never ever been meant to fill that role. They've always been THE elite strike unit.

I'll say again that the solution is no to make them better defensively or offensively, but to make them better at maneuvering, and especially straight after teleporting. To me, this has kinda been done with some formations already, so my proposed solution is to let them make an initiative check. If successful, they can either run and shoot, or charge from deep strike, depending on the flavour of terminator. That way, deep striking into a dangerous position is still very risky - you MIGHT get to charge, but you might fail and get shot to hell... so where do you want to deploy?

I would disagree, they aren't bikes, and deep strike suicide units are better filled by drop pod vets. Melee terminators function well offensively, but regular ones aren't good at anything in particular. Mainly because their only real advantage, which is their armour, fails to statistically protect them for their price against all forms of fire.

errrbody talkin bout termies while the big meaty man sit down and weep.

Poor Ogryns.