Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
"objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful."

I'd still never use them. They still aren't DOING anything. Standing there and dying slightly less slowly isn't beating Eldar.

That's more of a problem with Eldar having absurd rules than it is with the Terminators having bad rules. Terminators are, I think, close to what a balanced unit should look like, perhaps with just a touch more firepower or a lower point cost to make them worthwhile. They're clearly elite Space Marines, being harder to kill and more killy than the regular Marines, but they're well within the ability of most enemy units to engage and have a chance at beating them.

If you want to balance them against stupid stuff like Eldar, Tau battlesuits, and Invisibility then Terminators would need to have two wounds, three attacks, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, Preferred Enemy, and Assault 4 Rending on their Storm Bolters in order to accurately represent how elite Space Marines would compare to that sort of opposition. And even that might not be enough.

That's the way the game is going. The Eldar look less absurd with every release.

Martel732 wrote:
That's the way the game is going. The Eldar look less absurd with every release.

I can't think of any other release other then eldar that was that absurd. certainly can't think of strength D weapons on any one else's elites. eldar got the equivilant of terminator heavy flamers being strength D

Re roll all 1s on all saves. +10ppm, fixed

I'd say out of a Chaos view: Make them cheaper, give them an additional attack and the ability to overrun. Who needs a close combat unit that can't overrun?!

I'm playing in a Badab campaign, and honestly, my terminators have been my most effective unit, BUT that is because of some special rules in the campaign. That is despite the fact I use Lamenters, so mine cost more, and the scouts I use to put teleport homers in place are worse than the regular marine versions. The extra toughness, 2 wound and Armour 1+ suggestions are, in my opinion, unimaginative and speak of wanting to simply steamroller the opposition. I think there could be more imaginative alternatives. My initial observations;

1) Terminators kick ass in Zone Mortalis. People expect to deploy them in the open in regular 40k and survive. Even in the fluff, that is not how it is meant to be. Use them wisely, in built up areas, and you'll kick ass.

2) My sergeant got a special rule that, once per game, he can redeploy 6" in the movement phase, but it doesn't count as movement. I use that to deepstrike, move, and still get to shoot. It makes them immense on the turn they arrive. One of the terminator formations gives a similar ability, IIRC, so use that.

3) Heavy flamers have not even been mentioned yet. I find them hugely effective, and for their points, better than autocannons, especially when you deepstrike close, which I always attempt.

4) I deploy mine with a chaplain in terminator armour. He got a special relic that is basically an absurdly good heavy flamer. It makes them even more effective.

Recommendations:

A) I think there is an argument that teleporting should allow the unit to use their BS to reduce the scatter, so they'd be less likely to scatter, and if they did, go less distance. Even 2d6-3 would be fantastic. I'd expect teleporting to be more accurate than a jump pack, so fits the fluff, IMO. It would go some way to making up for the fact terminators have a much bigger footprint when deepstriking than most units.

B) Allow teleporting in to let you move AND shoot when you arrive. It is meant to be a surprise for the enemy!

(A and B together might be overpowered)

C) Maybe give a Hammer of Wrath attack. Not great at S4, but that means it would not be unbalancing, and it would help slightly.

I am not so sure that making them more durable or making their storm bolters better is the way to go, but if people want that, I think;;

D) Giving them Feel No Pain (6+) due to internal devices giving pain killing injections, etc, would be better than T5 or 2W or Armour 1+ or 4++

E) Giving them rending ammo for their storm bolters would be better than giving them more shots. That makes them more effective against enemy elites rather than good at mowing down hordes, which is not what their fluff has ever been about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, I forgot to mention - another option might be to let Assault Terminators assault from Deepstrike - IF they succeed on an initiative check...

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
TDA should give +2 T.

This would make them a viable option to bikes on HQs and also make the Terminators really tanky.

Adjust price as necessary.

So what, T7 nurgle Termis, T6 Chaos Lords and Chapter Masters.

Ah ah, no, never, pls.

Why not? You have plasma, be happy.

My preferred fix on Terminator s is the following.

1. Drop base points cost and turn the starting power fist into a power weapon.
2. Drop minimum unit size.
3. Provide more options to all the Terminators in the formation (think Chaos or Space Wolves).
4. Replace Relentless and the 5++ with Slow and Purposeful with a 4++.
5. Easier buy in on terminator heavy weapons and more weapon choices (Plasma Cannons, MultiMelta, etc)

Mkay, you wanna fix terminators, here's how you do it.

Start with the Wargear entry for Terminator Armor Itself.
On top of the Standard entry Add the following for Standard and Cataphractii Terminator Armour:
Models Equipped with Terminator armour gain an +1 bonus to their Toughness.
Models Equipped with Terminator Armor gain Feel No Pain (5+) to a maximum of 4+ Regardless of Stacking Special Rules.

Shock Assault: Terminator Armour is known for its advanced teleportation technology, and make use of this ability in daring pinpoint assaults. At the start of the movement phase, the player may nominate any number of Units or Models Equipped with Terminator Armor within 24 inches of another Model Equipped with a Homing Beacon or Teleport Homer to engage the suits Teleportation matrix.

Remove One model from the unit and place it up to 6 inches away from the model with the model equipped with the Locator Beacon or Teleport Homer, and then remove and replace the rest of the unit no more than one inch away from the first model. This counts as movement for the unit, however the unit may shoot and charge as normal.

Restrictions:
The Unit containing the Locator Beacon or Teleport Homer must have been on the board at the beginning of the turn, and may not have arrived from reserves in during the turn Shock Assault is used. This includes units containing a Locator Beacon or Teleport Homer inside Transport.

Models may use the Shock Assault to move out of a Transport, for purposes of measurement measure from the center of the transport. Under no circumstances can the Shock Assault ability be used to Enter a transport.

Shock Assault may not be used if the model has arrived via Deep Strike this turn.


Lightning Strike: If arriving from reserves via Deep Strike, the player may nominate to use Lightning Strike. This ability allows a unit or model in Terminator Armor to assault the on the turn it arrives from Deep Strike when using the units Teleport Homer only.

Restrictions:
May only be used by Assault Terminator Units and Cataphractii Terminator Units that are equipped with Close Combat and Melee Specialist Weapons Only, as well as Independent Characters in Terminator or Cataphractii Terminator Armour Also equipped with Close Comat or Melee Specialist Weapons only, this does include Storm Shields.

Due to the extreme power constraints on the armors teleportation matrix for such a taxing assault, if this ability is used, the unit may not use Shock Assault at any point during the game.


Individual UNIT Entries:
Terminator Squad:
Special Issue Ammunition.
Terminator Assault Squad:
+1 WS for 2 ccw/Melee Specialist weapons or +1 T for if at least 3 models in base to base with one another have a Storm Shield.
Cataphractii Terminator Squad:
Special Issue Ammunition. +1BS may elect to make 1 Power Weapon master Crafted.

At 200pts for 5 before upgrades I think that's fair

Terminators function incredibly well as a joke unit.

I think it is hilarious that most of the proposed fixes are trying to turn them into worse Centurions rather than fixing their role on the battlefield.

The game isn't granulated enough to support terminators and centurions, I think. For example, in a D10 system, terminators could have 2+ armor and centurions 3+ to reflect the centurion's focus on offense.

That's a complete rewrite though. That's terribly more time consuming than a few basic fixes. The fixes I proposed are relatively simple and help make them distinct rather than "Centurion-lite".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's a complete rewrite though. That's terribly more time consuming than a few basic fixes. The fixes I proposed are relatively simple and help make them distinct rather than "Centurion-lite".

I think the vanilla marines have already gotten all the "fixes" we're going to see for these guys, though. Because knocking 5 pts off totally makes them worthwhile. That's a fix by someone who is enslaved to the rule of cool.

That's 25 points off a minimum squad. It was an awesome start but not enough.

It would actually be kind of cool to have an edition of 40k that favored models like Terminators, for a change. I would welcome a version of 40k that favored slow, lumbering units rather than superfast, zoom-across-the-table models

Generally speaking, ALL the superfast models are way more likely to win you a game than the superslow models. Mobility should be costed as highly as firepower, and tankiness should either cost less or be more effective.

Wasn't this the post GK 5th edition era ?

GK Terminators are some of the only Terminators worth a damn. They give Warp Charges, all have Force Weapons and/or strike at S6-10, at least have a good Heavy Weapon (which they should still be able to take two at minimum size) and are troops by default. The making of Psycannons Salvo was just icing on the cake to make PAGK useless.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Wasn't this the post GK 5th edition era ?

back in 5th edition all the GK cheese net lists I saw relied more on strike squads. it wasn't till the 7th edition codex that GKTs rose to prominance. mostly because strike squads weren't very good. if terminator squads where cheap eneugh and wherte troops for any other marine 'dex you'd never see tactical squads eaither

You barely see Tactical Squads now. Dark Angels and vanilla SM either use formations, Bikers or Scouts for troops. In everything else they're seen as a Tax, and partially the reason why Blood Angels are considered *bad* is because they don't have access to either methods (their scouts still suck).

Again most of this and the Terminators are the product of Power Creep. Dial everything back to 3rd edition and these are the ones who will see the least changes, but most increase in power.

BA still have good scouts IMO. Cheap troop tax. Beats overpriced elite that costs more for no reason which won't get fixed.

FWIW, for my group's next campaign (and we'll probably keep it as a house rule), the decision was made that Terminators could re-roll failed invulnerable saves of 1. Note that this only applies to the 5+ invulnerable save granted by Terminator armour, and not invulnerable saves from other sources (such as Storm Shields).

I gave storm bolters a heavy 3 firing option that can't be used for snapshots. All around boost there. Then I made space wolves, chaos marine, grey knights, and blood angels units that start the game in terminator armor 5 points cheaper per model like they did with space marines and things seem to be going well.

Their main issue is being a defensive melee unit. There isn't enough fast heavy hitting and durable melee stuff out there to necessitate them. I also added 9" movement to all monstrous creatures and walkers base. Now there are units running forward that you may need to speed bump or crush so they don't get too much killing done. Terminators do that well in my experience.

Eh. Make em cheaper. There is no reason you should have 2 wounds when Orks have no invul, no good guns and S&P.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Eh. Make em cheaper. There is no reason you should have 2 wounds when Orks have no invul, no good guns and S&P.

Give Orks an invulnerable save, good guns and S&P. Adjust their price accordingly. I don't think people are saying "Terminators must be the best thing in 40K" just that they should be better. That's not mutually exclusive with buffing other units also.

I really dislike the idea of lowering their points cost, they're supposed to be the elite of the elite, equipped with incredibly rare and powerful armour. Not just another troop you can spam.

I love terminators, the fluff, the look, Deathwing etc.

The problem IMHO is that the game has just moved beyond them with GW's ridiculous lack of internal regulation and the never ending escalating of units just to sell more models. Centurions are a damn joke, but why wouldn't you take them over Terminators. Grav weaponry. The massive increase on AP2 weaponry. The escalation of systems to include knights, super heavies etc. The terminator doesn't belong on this battlefield.
Terminators are designed for precision strikes to gut the heart of the enemy or for boarding actions. The latter they can still do quite well in Zone Mortalis but the former is just not possible.
A fix? Outside of increased stats (which will just paint an even bigger target on their heads) is to allow assault after deep strike. Also allow units to mix weapons ala deathwing. This gets them back to the precision strike element they are supposed to be. Of course, some sort of control would be required to prevent people turning them into "stars", but I'm not sure how at this point as GW has just devolved this game into that completely, hard to turn back without a serious overhaul.

 bullyboy wrote:
The problem IMHO is that the game has just moved beyond them with GW's ridiculous lack of internal regulation and the never ending escalating of units just to sell more models. Centurions are a damn joke, but why wouldn't you take them over Terminators. Grav weaponry.

The obvious solution: get rid of power fists and give Terminators grav cannons

Then people would buy new models and Terminators would be happy!

Ork Meganob = 40 pts
SM Termie = 40 pts

SM Termie is way better than a Meganob.

Yes some weapons ignore even a 2+ save but then some weapons ignore toughness, some ignore extra wounds.. I don't think any weapons ignore invulnerable saves though, or FNP which is accessible to Termies easily through a cheap apothecary upgrade. They can die and they aren't the biggest and the baddest on the table anymore but they are still pretty good. Orks don't complain about their Meganobz why should SM players with their 10 free mini-tanks and re-roll everythings complain about their Termies? I don't get it.

How about making Termies T10 W10 Armour save 1++++ Inv 1+++++ FNP 1+++++ and completely free with every free tank? Would that fix em?

My thought has always been to give them "BS7" armor save for plain terminator armor losing the added roll against ap2/1. So vs bolters 2+/5+. Plasma would be just 2+. Any wargear that increases the invuln save increases the reroll.

+1 toughness would be iffy with this, because Nurgle termie lords would be hell to kill, with Typhus becoming Lord Unkillable Without D. Smashfether would be that +1.

 SolarCross wrote:
Ork Meganob = 40 pts
SM Termie = 40 pts

SM Termie is way better than a Meganob.

The Meganob is tougher against everything except S8+ AP2/AP1.

What is usually killing your Terminators, plasma guns and scatter lasers or meltaguns and bright lances?