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Martel732 wrote:
Just to be completely transparent, terminators die at exactly half the rate of marines to most small arms fire. However, even at 35 ppm, you are looking at losing 5.6 pts per incoming wound vs 4.7 pts per incoming wound with regular marines. Against AP 2, you are losing 23 pts per incoming wound vs 14 pts per incoming wound with regular marines. In cover, that goes down to 9.3 pts per incoming wound.

Terminators are meant to fill the roll of durable hold the line type unit. Sure they will eventually grinde down an enemy, but exceptional ranged damage is left to centurions and heavy weapons teams.

If terminator armour allowed you to reroll all failed saves, and no other changes were made they would be significantly better from a durability stand point.

Lets face it, storm bolters are nothing special, and I personally would prefer to see terminators cost go up by 5-10 ppm but grant them a significant buff to durability. That way they arent centurions, or artificer armour, and it would make taking the armour enticing for characters again.

If a straight up reroll is too much, make any attack that is instant death negates the reroll, that way anti tank weaponry is preferred, but weapons like plasma and xenos plasma will be slightly less effective.

Bam terminator armour is relevant again.

EDIT: Storm shield upgrade gives a 3++ invulnv, can not be rerolled as it is the armour itself that can reroll saves.

It's kinda in the vein of what you're talking about but I've always thought to improve durability you should get to take the invulnerable save and then take your armor save against any wounds you failed stop... Sorta like a re-roll against the small stuff. Terminators would become more durable against many things but would still have vulnerability against the things that can already kill them.

Storm bolters become assault 3 (being the link between boltguns and assault cannons), and terminators can re-roll all saves. Increase cost by 5 pts per model. I really like the idea of Terminator armour being relevant for characters again. Konrax that's a great idea. Maybe +10 pts for characters to take the armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Storm bolters are fine as a 5pts upgrade when they replace a bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So that's:

• Storm bolters are assault 3 for no extra cost (for power armour as well).

• Terminator armour allows re-rolls for the 2+/5++ it provides (not additional wargear). Re-roll negated by instant death.
• +5 pts for terminators. +10 pts for TDA as character wargear.

Terminators fixed! High five Konrax!

I really like the "re-roll, negated by instant death" idea; always thought a re-roll was going a bit far, but this mitigates against it nicely.

Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

I agree, but that would mean less space marine models to be sold by GW!!!

So based on that I doubt it would ever happen.

 Konrax wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

I agree, but that would mean less space marine models to be sold by GW!!!

So based on that I doubt it would ever happen.

If that happened all the old termies sat on shelves would once more march off to war on the table tops. But we already own then... There's the problem!

Many of the new players dont have terminators because they are bad, which means they will be hot sellers!!!

Boy, it's easy to be a critic, but hands up: Who honestly thinks that giving terminator models a free, base rerollable 2+ armor save is anywhere remotely in the realm of not-completely-broken?

Even if it's restricted to the realm of S4 or less or non-instant death.......that's still pants-on-head-crazy AMAZINGLY good.

I mean, I can get a rerollable 2+ armor with DLS+mega armor, but I don't generally like to, because 2+ rerollable saves aren't fun to play with or against, much less on entire squads of it.

I remember back in 6th playing against eldar jetbike spam with 2+ rerollables, and it's just not fun.

I will say that I honestly don't know how to improve terminators, though. Give them a free extra toughness or FNP, and chaos will complain, and rightfully so - why should loyalist marines essentially get chaos marks for free?

Give them an extra wound for free, and ork players will complain, for similar reasons.

Give them either for more points, and SM players will complain about paying more to make a bad unit better.

I'd love to provide some constructive criticism, but I honestly have no idea to improve terminators that wouldn't make them completely broken compared to other factions similar units.

But.......come on guys. Lets be real. Base 2+ rerollable armor saves? Are you guys serious?

Only if you use small arms.
Terminators are meant to be immune to small arms, right? Well 2+ rerollable against less than S4 is pretty close to immune. Don't want to give them rerolls? Use stronger guns. Buy plasma.

Not to mention that you would be paying a lot of points for a 1W model.
If 75 is the base cost, you are paying 375 points for 5 wounds worth of models, and you can't add more to it.

Its not as broken as you think, and its no-where near as ridiculous as 2+ rerollable jet bikes, which were relatively cheap, fast moving, had 2+ cover saves (huge difference. You can ignore armor relatively easily. Ignoring cover is a little trickier) and could be fielded in numbers.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Boy, it's easy to be a critic, but hands up: Who honestly thinks that giving terminator models a free, base rerollable 2+ armor save is anywhere remotely in the realm of not-completely-broken?

Even if it's restricted to the realm of S4 or less or non-instant death.......that's still pants-on-head-crazy AMAZINGLY good.

I mean, I can get a rerollable 2+ armor with DLS+mega armor, but I don't generally like to, because 2+ rerollable saves aren't fun to play with or against, much less on entire squads of it.

I remember back in 6th playing against eldar jetbike spam with 2+ rerollables, and it's just not fun.

I will say that I honestly don't know how to improve terminators, though. Give them a free extra toughness or FNP, and chaos will complain, and rightfully so - why should loyalist marines essentially get chaos marks for free?

Give them an extra wound for free, and ork players will complain, for similar reasons.

Give them either for more points, and SM players will complain about paying more to make a bad unit better.

I'd love to provide some constructive criticism, but I honestly have no idea to improve terminators that wouldn't make them completely broken compared to other factions similar units.

But.......come on guys. Lets be real. Base 2+ rerollable armor saves? Are you guys serious?

(Hand up) Yo!

Bro, immunity to s4 is nothing special. Grotesques from dark eldar in...3rd edition or so had complete immunity to guns s4 and below, and that was back when you couldn't shoot through units.

I think you're seriously overestimating the effect of increasing their durability. They still shoot bolter shots and walk 6" a turn. That alone is a huge disadvantage in today's game. A terminator unit with veil of time for fully rerollable saves against everything isn't even that competitive. They're bad enough that pushing them to be a viable choice in a serious game is going to require a huge change.

I'm of the opinion that +1w and T for no point change would put them on the map as a durable area holder unit that could deep strike to double as a decent distraction carnifex for their points, while maintaining their fluff image as slow bulky veterans wearing some of the best protective armor the universe has to offer. (Seriously why do you become tougher by sitting on a bike saddle but not by stepping into a small walking tank-suit!?)

If I actually wanted to push them to be "eldar-tier" competitive above all else, they'd probably need special storm bolters that are assault cannon statted complete with rending, special rules to make them always obsec, teleport movement, and the sergeant carries a vortex grenade. Because speed and offensive power is where the top units shine.

In terms of their development history and fluff, aren't Tac Terminators essentially an overgrown Tac Squad?

Give them the option to take a Grav Cannon and be chosen as troops, now they are relevant in three extra ways (mandatory CAD choices, Obsec, Firepower). You get 2x Relentless, Deep Striking Grav Cannons for every 3x Grav Cannons deployed by Drop Pod Tac Marines. That seems fair.

Despite being troops, you'd still have Assault Terminators and why not add Devastator Terminators who can take 4x Special Weapons. Ha ha.

Is the problem really their statline? If they weren't competing against firepower units with outdated weapons, you wouldn't need to push their stats and special rules through the roof to compensate.

Improvements should emphasize the veteran nature of Terminators. These guys aren't just well armored - they're the chapter elite. 1st Company vets should get their own Combat Doctrine just like the Battle Companies.

Terminator Doctrine: May be enacted at the start of your turn in addition to any other Combat Doctrines enacted. Affected models can re-roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Save rolls of 1 until the end of your opponent's next turn.  Affected models in Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, and Cataphractii Terminator Squads including any affected models with the Independent Character special rule that have joined those squads, can instead re-roll all failed To Hit, To Wound and Armour Save rolls they make until the end of your opponent's next turn and may charge even if they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve this turn.

Granted by:
Can use once if your army contains at least 1 Terminator Squad, Terminator Assault Squad, Cataphractii Terminator Squad, Vanguard Veteran Squad or Sternguard Veteran Squad; affects all Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, Cataphractii Terminator Squads, Vanguard Veteran Squads, and Sternguard Veteran Squads when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 1st Company Task Force; affects all 1st Company Task Forces when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 Ravenhawk Assault Group; affects all Ravenhawk Assault Groups when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 Shadow Force; affects all Shadow Forces when used.

Can use twice more if your army contains at least 1 Strike Force Ultra; affects all Strike Force Ultras in your army when used.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

10 man squads isn't that big when you realize that guard deploy 30+ men in the same CAD slot.

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

10 man squads isn't that big when you realize that guard deploy 30+ men in the same CAD slot.

I wouldnt want to change their main statline too much tbh, they are still marines, maybe more skilled but more or less still marines.

WS5 and BS5 would be a nice buff, it would trandlate into more hits and damage with range and melee without having to change any of the weapon profiles.

Give them the reroll saves as long as it isnt instant death, storm shields cant be rerolled, but other upgrades like Iron halo can be rerolled. Eternal warrior doesnt change if you get a reroll or not.

Change terminator armour from relentless to slow and purposeful, this way they can't perform run moves and it will allow kiting as an option and make ranged terminators more viable.

Make terminator armour cost 15 additional points above its current cost for HQs, and make all terminator units 12 points more base. Terminators that are alreafy ws and/or bs5 increase by 8 points each.

Give terminators objective secured, and now you have a very serious objective holding unit that would be painful to remove.

Deep striking them to sit on objectives makes them a great counter for bike and fast spam, and while their fire power is still relatively low and short ranged, and their movement is limited they should be good without feeling over powered.

I don't think the Terminator statline needs to change much. I could see and go for a change to terminator armor to give a chance to compete against bike upgrades and give terminators more firepower to fall in line with their cost (and again make them competitive against bikes). Ideally longer range weapons that are heavy or salvo. I would say have terminator armor grant +1 T and give 2+/5+ or improve invulnerable saves by +1. which ever is better up to a max of 3+. I would give access to grav guns, maybe grav cannons. I would have terminators (power weapon and storm bolter or twin lightning claws) start in at 25 points. The power fist would add 5 points, TH/SS would weigh in at 35 points ppm. I would probably tweak the cost of upgrades like the cyclone ect to be 5 points less and allow up to 2 specials per 5 men. I think this is all reasonable considering how bad a 6 inch move is especially combined with bulky and only being able to deepstrike or take an overpriced box for a transport. I think the Grey Knights are about right where they are with what they have though the ability for them to blow themselves up is silly and might be better off removed when casting certain specific psychic powers. Storm bolters should probably become salvo 2/3 or 2/4 with no loss to range regardless of movement.

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, for starters I'm of the opinion that marines should receive heavy stat boosts across the board, but increase in cost have reduced squad numbers to compensate.

The marines are supposed to be a small and elite force. They should not be a measly 14 points each with 10 man squads.

So a terminator, to me, should be something like this

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W1 I5 A3 Ld10

Storm bolter - 18" range S4 AP5 Assault 3, Suppressive
Suppressive - An enemy infantry squad or monsterous creature hit once or more times must take a leadership test, with a minus 1 penalty for every unsaved wound inflicted.
If failed, the unit suffers -1 to WS, BS, Ld and may move only half distance until the start of the Space Marine's player next turn.

Assault Cannon - 24" range, S6 AP4, rending, suppressive

Terminator armor - 2+ armor / 5+ invul may reroll failed armor saves against wounds inflicted in shooting and melee that are S4 or less.

It'll be something 75-100 points a model though

10 man squads isn't that big when you realize that guard deploy 30+ men in the same CAD slot.

Which are organized in 10 man squads.
Also, aren't fire warriors and Eldar / Dark Eldar troop choices max squad size 10? Aren't there more Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar than marines?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Improvements should emphasize the veteran nature of Terminators. These guys aren't just well armored - they're the chapter elite. 1st Company vets should get their own Combat Doctrine just like the Battle Companies.

Terminator Doctrine: May be enacted at the start of your turn in addition to any other Combat Doctrines enacted. Affected models can re-roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Save rolls of 1 until the end of your opponent's next turn.  Affected models in Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, and Cataphractii Terminator Squads including any affected models with the Independent Character special rule that have joined those squads, can instead re-roll all failed To Hit, To Wound and Armour Save rolls they make until the end of your opponent's next turn and may charge even if they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve this turn.

Granted by:
Can use once if your army contains at least 1 Terminator Squad, Terminator Assault Squad, Cataphractii Terminator Squad, Vanguard Veteran Squad or Sternguard Veteran Squad; affects all Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, Cataphractii Terminator Squads, Vanguard Veteran Squads, and Sternguard Veteran Squads when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 1st Company Task Force; affects all 1st Company Task Forces when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 Ravenhawk Assault Group; affects all Ravenhawk Assault Groups when used.

Can use once more if your army contains at least 1 Shadow Force; affects all Shadow Forces when used.

Can use twice more if your army contains at least 1 Strike Force Ultra; affects all Strike Force Ultras in your army when used.

Doctrines like that are stupid and promote more useless book-keeping, just give them the flat armor and invul reroll and call it a day.

I don't think an upcosted model with the marine statline is every going to work in modern 40K. It never really did. Ever.

 NorseSig wrote:
Ideally longer range weapons that are heavy or salvo.... I would give access to grav guns, maybe grav cannons.

I don't understand the logic of why they can't access the same equipment options as Sterngard and Vanguard.

Out of curiosity -- given access to EVERYTHING in the theoretical 1st Company arsenal, how would you guys loadout a Tac Terminator squad?

Assault cannons everywhere. Because gatling is cool.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:
Ideally longer range weapons that are heavy or salvo.... I would give access to grav guns, maybe grav cannons.

I don't understand the logic of why they can't access the same equipment options as Sterngard and Vanguard.

Out of curiosity -- given access to EVERYTHING in the theoretical 1st Company arsenal, how would you guys loadout a Tac Terminator squad?

Competitively? Probably heavy flamers and give them a FA pod to ride so I can have reliable positioning after the deep strike. Without a pod? Assault cannons assuming you mean to include those (as the other vets can't take them,) or at least standard bolters with vet ammo instead of storm bolters.

You can't just give them Special Ammo, because that's the gimmick for Sternguard.

Still would rather see the changes I suggested, would make them have a role.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't just give them Special Ammo, because that's the gimmick for Sternguard.

Can you think of any other way to make the stormbolter not suck?

Being able to exchange the SB for Sternguard Bolters is clever. I didn't actually think of that.

What's your opinion on the price/value ratio here?

- 325pts for 4x Terminators w/Grav Cannons, a Combi-Grav and DS, compared to 320pts for 4x Grav Cents
- 265pts for 4x Terminators w/HF, a Combi-Flamer, Chainfist, and Drop Pod, compared to 275pts for an Ironclad w/2x HF, Drop Pod, and Assault Squad w/2x Flamers and JPs
- 255pts for 4x Terminators w/Assault Cannons, compared to 260pts for 4x Land Speeders w/Assault Cannons, HB
- 8x Sternguard before upgrades, versus 5x Terminators w/Sternguard Bolters

Given the firepower is essentially identical in most examples, maybe it's instructive of the actual worth of the Terminator platform.

1+ armor?

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't just give them Special Ammo, because that's the gimmick for Sternguard.

Can you think of any other way to make the stormbolter not suck?

I'd like to make Storm Bolters S5 and let the Tactical Terminators have access to two heavy weapons immediately.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Boy, it's easy to be a critic, but hands up: Who honestly thinks that giving terminator models a free, base rerollable 2+ armor save is anywhere remotely in the realm of not-completely-broken?

Even if it's restricted to the realm of S4 or less or non-instant death.......that's still pants-on-head-crazy AMAZINGLY good.

I mean, I can get a rerollable 2+ armor with DLS+mega armor, but I don't generally like to, because 2+ rerollable saves aren't fun to play with or against, much less on entire squads of it.

I remember back in 6th playing against eldar jetbike spam with 2+ rerollables, and it's just not fun.

I will say that I honestly don't know how to improve terminators, though. Give them a free extra toughness or FNP, and chaos will complain, and rightfully so - why should loyalist marines essentially get chaos marks for free?

Give them an extra wound for free, and ork players will complain, for similar reasons.

Give them either for more points, and SM players will complain about paying more to make a bad unit better.

I'd love to provide some constructive criticism, but I honestly have no idea to improve terminators that wouldn't make them completely broken compared to other factions similar units.

But.......come on guys. Lets be real. Base 2+ rerollable armor saves? Are you guys serious?

Compared to how much AP2 is out there these days this really wouldn't be that big a deal.

I think one of the main issues here is that you guys are trying to fix Terminators when the reality is that the game itself needs fixing. It's become a jumbled mess of a thousand special rules...and increasingly large models which inundates the game with a ridiculous amount of super high power weaponry.

The game is broken, not the unit.