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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
But why are they getting FNP in the first place? There's no justification for it.

You mean wearing the most durable personal body armour the Imperium has ever created isn't justification enough for a FNP mechanic, but having a robot hand is? Power armour fluff in general indicates it has numerous life support systems in place, and terminator armour has even more. I think there is plenty of justification for it, simply because the rules don't do a very good job of translating how durable the stuff is supposed to be. If the term "Feel No Pain" bothers you, call it something else, they did the same thing for Necrons, giving them FNP v1.5 to represent the Reanimation Protocols mechanic.

Honestly, its about finding something that makes terminators (of ALL varieties, not just Codex Marines) more in line with their fluff and battlefield role and NOT turning them into smaller, cheaper Centurions. Also, its about finding something that can be easily applied to all codexes that use the armour, so the simpler the rule change, the better the implementation.

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:


Meganobz are ALSO BAD. I'd say it's perfectly fair for a unit to be made better than them if the unit wants to be taken seriously. And no one here is disputing that meganobz should also be better, except that the thread title appears to be "terminators," not "meganobz."

I just don't understand this logic of "we must keep all bad units bad because other bad units exist."

But Meganobz aren't bad...

Yes. They are. If you play in calmer waters where they and marine terminators actually appear on the table, cool. Have fun with that. But don't mistake your meta for how the top of the game is played. And when we're discussing the competitive viability of units, the top of the game is what matters, where you can find riptide wings, wraithknights, and superfriends deathstars, not Jim's garage-table where you see Vindicaire assassins, Tyranids without flyrants, and apparently marine terminators.

Lord Snooty "(sniff) well why indeed would I want to pay for a deep striking elite soldier with a trifling 2+ armour save and invulnerable save when I can have 10 razorbacks for free?"

If you're resorting to bad trolling I think we can safely assume you have nothing of value to add.

 Red Marine wrote:
MANZ suck because the ork codex munches donkey cave. This thread is more a conversation about a old, beloved SPACE MARINE unit getting the short end of the stick when it comes to internal balance. Orks as a whole need a massive overhaul. So please stop trying to hijack this conversation with the Groans of the Orks, and start another thread about proposed fixes FOR ORKS. I pray SoB and Tyranid players don't bomb your thread.

Centurion buffs to a SM compared to TDA are mostly hard stat buffs. What about some more USRs? I dislike adding more USRs to the pile, but it could be a fluffy distinction.

None of the good marine units have marine stats. Except the librarian conclave. I guess Skyhammer ASM and devs.

Martel732 wrote:
The counters are too cheap and plentiful. And have low opportunity cost.

Grav itself isn't all THAT plentiful. it's only about as common as plasma. where the problem arises is shots per weapon. so grav weapons could be nerfed pretty easily by making them rapid fire instead of salvo.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The counters are too cheap and plentiful. And have low opportunity cost.

Grav itself isn't all THAT plentiful. it's only about as common as plasma. where the problem arises is shots per weapon. so grav weapons could be nerfed pretty easily by making them rapid fire instead of salvo.

You can't do that, though because Riptides and WKs exist.

The problem is that MCs and GMCs are so much more durable than terminator squads for not many more points.

I'm away for the week. Would someone be so kind as to give my "BS7" terminator armor idea a shot in say, a 750 game? Take a tactical terminator squad or equivalent, just for thoroughness.


"BS7" armor save for plain terminator armor losing the added roll against ap2/1. So vs bolters 2+/5+. Plasma would be just 2+. Any wargear that increases the invuln save increases the reroll.

I think the big issue here, and it's not unique to Terminators, is that 40k has simply outscaled many units.

Terminators are fearsome in boarding actions and seizing command bunkers, but when the game is increasingly playing at an Epic scale, with things like aircraft, superheavy tanks, and units like Centurions are created to feed that ever increasing scale ("we need something like Terminators...but even more armored...and killier..."), they just get left behind.

Back in 5E, about the hardiest infantry you'd find would be something like Obliterators, basically W2 Terminators, and, through unintended wound allocation gimmicks, Nob Bikers, and that was the upper scale of non-MC unit resiliency, and about the worst thing you'd face in terms of firepower would be an IG army able to throw maybe three dozen S5/6/7 shots across the board and two dozen AP2 weapons in total of all range brackets. Now though...? We've got units that are exponentially more resilient and firepower that such formerly fearsome IG gunlines can't even hope to match.

The problem fundamentally isn't with Terminators, it's that 40k is trying to be too many things and is allowing bloat to overtake once staple units that helped ground the setting, and the moving goal post nullifies the utility of very large numbers of units, be they Terminators or something else.

I know you said it wasn't specific to Terminators, but do note even their best incarnation (4th edition codex with two Assault Cannons) was okay at best. At best.

There's definitely always been an issue with them, even at smaller scales.

With lots of rumors of 8th being announced soonish (probably after the summer of Sigmar), I'm not sure we will see a satisfactory solution to this problem before then. With that said, it's really a points issue, anything is useful if it's cheap enough. As has been suggested before, Drop them to 25 points base, and leave them more or less the same. You'll see some use for them then, because at that price their offense isn't terrible, and the 2+ save and powerfist are probably worth ten points over a standard marine.

The nice thing about point cost changes is there is no rules momentum, thus if they need to be balanced in the next edition you don't have a hangover from the current meta (what do you mean storm bolters aren't salvo 6?). The power of the unit is increased in comparison to other units only in the number you can field, which is a much more mild form of powercreep than spiffy new abilities.

However GW has done some pretty terrible things to the rules this edition, and I think we've reached the end of the line as far as powercreep goes. Take for instance armor and invul saves, when I started in third invul saves were rare, the average space marine army had two people with them, they were also never better than a 4+, and more often than not a 5+. Now 3++ is the new black, which has forced an arms race which ended up with D weapon spam. There is just no more room for the power creep to go up without adding an absurd amount more dice rolls. We are going to have to step back from the current meta, and start anew, and that will be much easier without making the hangover from this meta worse than it has to be.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Yes. They are. If you play in calmer waters where they and marine terminators actually appear on the table, cool. Have fun with that. But don't mistake your meta for how the top of the game is played. And when we're discussing the competitive viability of units, the top of the game is what matters, where you can find riptide wings, wraithknights, and superfriends deathstars, not Jim's garage-table where you see Vindicaire assassins, Tyranids without flyrants, and apparently marine terminators.

Right so we are agreed that Termies are only mild cheddar, in a codex dripping with Blue Stilton and that 2 or maybe 3 other codices have comparable high doses of Blue Stilton. Where we disagree is that you want your mild cheddar to become as stinking as the rest of your cheese whereas I think maybe the Blue Stilton ought to be toned down a bit across the board. Wraithknights exist, sure so they should cost twice as much maybe more, Riptides exist so they should cost what 25% more or whatever. Oh and yeah no free transports for SM. That would be an easier fix than cheesing up every unit of every codex.

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Yes. They are. If you play in calmer waters where they and marine terminators actually appear on the table, cool. Have fun with that. But don't mistake your meta for how the top of the game is played. And when we're discussing the competitive viability of units, the top of the game is what matters, where you can find riptide wings, wraithknights, and superfriends deathstars, not Jim's garage-table where you see Vindicaire assassins, Tyranids without flyrants, and apparently marine terminators.

Right so we are agreed that Termies are only mild cheddar, in a codex dripping with Blue Stilton and that 2 or maybe 3 other codices have comparable high doses of Blue Stilton. Where we disagree is that you want your mild cheddar to become as stinking as the rest of your cheese whereas I think maybe the Blue Stilton ought to be toned down a bit across the board. Wraithknights exist, sure so they should cost twice as much maybe more, Riptides exist so they should cost what 25% as much or whatever. Oh and yeah no free transports for SM. That would be an easier fix than cheesing up every unit of every codex.

Your fix is NOT happening. The only hope for units left behind is to get cheesed up.

Well Martel, There is no where left for them to go to get cheesed up, it won't be long before everyone is rocking a 2++ and bolters are D weapons. That's probably an exaggeration, but the current level of power creep is unsustainable. If the spoilers for the battle for Verdos are any indication 40K is in for some big changes, and those changes look like a huge deescalation for all factions.

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Yes. They are. If you play in calmer waters where they and marine terminators actually appear on the table, cool. Have fun with that. But don't mistake your meta for how the top of the game is played. And when we're discussing the competitive viability of units, the top of the game is what matters, where you can find riptide wings, wraithknights, and superfriends deathstars, not Jim's garage-table where you see Vindicaire assassins, Tyranids without flyrants, and apparently marine terminators.

Right so we are agreed that Termies are only mild cheddar, in a codex dripping with Blue Stilton and that 2 or maybe 3 other codices have comparable high doses of Blue Stilton. Where we disagree is that you want your mild cheddar to become as stinking as the rest of your cheese whereas I think maybe the Blue Stilton ought to be toned down a bit across the board. Wraithknights exist, sure so they should cost twice as much maybe more, Riptides exist so they should cost what 25% more or whatever. Oh and yeah no free transports for SM. That would be an easier fix than cheesing up every unit of every codex.

Wait, you think terminators are cheesy? Yeah I think we're done here. Irrational Imperium hate strikes again.

I'm a Dark Angels player, so I've tried REALLY HARD to make Terminators work, and they just don't. I'm not talking about an ubercheesed tournament setting either. I play with a group with house rules that tone those shenanigans down (the most significant of which is a 40% Troops requirement). Even in that environment, Terminators just don't work. For my money, the main problem with Terminators isn't their vulnerability to AP2, it's that too many armies can spam wounds in a way that wasn't possible when GW established the price for Terminators back in 3rd edition. So, they don't work in a tournament setting AND they don't work in a casual setting.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
For my money, the main problem with Terminators isn't their vulnerability to AP2, it's that too many armies can spam wounds in a way that wasn't possible when GW established the price for Terminators back in 3rd edition.

This. I witnessed some Dark Angels Terminators on the field of battle as late as last weekend, and they weren't really very useful. Enemy units could put so much shooting on them that many fell to that, and then faster assault units put in even more wounds. Terminators just aren't that impressive anymore when many armies can throw scores of wounds at them before they even get to try something.

 Grimgold wrote:
Well Martel, There is no where left for them to go to get cheesed up, it won't be long before everyone is rocking a 2++ and bolters are D weapons. That's probably an exaggeration, but the current level of power creep is unsustainable. If the spoilers for the battle for Verdos are any indication 40K is in for some big changes, and those changes look like a huge deescalation for all factions.

Just might be a slight exaggeration. You think? The current power creep is NOT unsustainable because math is not finite. There might be a 3rd ed style rewrite, but short of that, there is only one way to go: up.

My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

 SolarCross wrote:

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

Really? So they're actually somewhat durable against the worst ballistic skill army in the game shooting their basic infantry guns? Kind of cherry-picking evidence there aren't you?

Even with your example, a set of 25 shoota boys (175 points) will kill 4.5 termies, (AKA sometimes the entire unit, sometimes all but one,) in a single shoot+charge turn, y'know, since they're actually a close combat army, and that's not even considering a nob with klaw which would be more efficient at it than his points in shoota boys.

They're supposed to be miniature tanks. All I want is for opponents to actually feel the need to use the correct weaponry on them. Currently they can use whatever weaponry they please, anti-infantry or anti-tank, and it all works. The terminators die to both. This is part of why meganobz are a bit better: they're twice as resilient to small arms, and as such they can be sent after small arms-wielding enemies while the rest of your army focuses on the heavy weapons that could kill the manz efficiently. Terminators can't do that. The small arms unit will butcher them just like the heavy weapons will.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

Really? So they're actually somewhat durable against the worst ballistic skill army in the game shooting their basic infantry guns? Kind of cherry-picking evidence there aren't you?

Even with your example, a set of 25 shoota boys (175 points) will kill 4.5 termies, (AKA sometimes the entire unit, sometimes all but one,) in a single shoot+charge turn, y'know, since they're actually a close combat army, and that's not even considering a nob with klaw which would be more efficient at it than his points in shoota boys.

They're supposed to be miniature tanks. All I want is for opponents to actually feel the need to use the correct weaponry on them. Currently they can use whatever weaponry they please, anti-infantry or anti-tank, and it all works. The terminators die to both. This is part of why meganobz are a bit better: they're twice as resilient to small arms, and as such they can be sent after small arms-wielding enemies while the rest of your army focuses on the heavy weapons that could kill the manz efficiently. Terminators can't do that. The small arms unit will butcher them just like the heavy weapons will.

Okay how about 30 Guard Lasguns with an officer to give the all "first rank, second rank fire". Works out at 1 dead termie again. If they shot at 30 Guard that would be 10 dead guard. 10 guard is worth 1.5 termies.

I don't think they are meant to be miniature tanks, they are meant to be elite marines with a better armour save. They aren't and shouldn't be immune to small arms but using small arms against them is and should be inefficient.

All they need is to be able to assault out of deep strike.

All they NEED is better offensive power. The durability is meh for the price, but the firepower is insulting for the price, and the melee power is insulting for the price.

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

Really? So they're actually somewhat durable against the worst ballistic skill army in the game shooting their basic infantry guns? Kind of cherry-picking evidence there aren't you?

Even with your example, a set of 25 shoota boys (175 points) will kill 4.5 termies, (AKA sometimes the entire unit, sometimes all but one,) in a single shoot+charge turn, y'know, since they're actually a close combat army, and that's not even considering a nob with klaw which would be more efficient at it than his points in shoota boys.

They're supposed to be miniature tanks. All I want is for opponents to actually feel the need to use the correct weaponry on them. Currently they can use whatever weaponry they please, anti-infantry or anti-tank, and it all works. The terminators die to both. This is part of why meganobz are a bit better: they're twice as resilient to small arms, and as such they can be sent after small arms-wielding enemies while the rest of your army focuses on the heavy weapons that could kill the manz efficiently. Terminators can't do that. The small arms unit will butcher them just like the heavy weapons will.

Okay how about 30 Guard Lasguns with an officer to give the all "first rank, second rank fire". Works out at 1 dead termie again. If they shot at 30 Guard that would be 10 dead guard. 10 guard is worth 1.5 termies.

I don't think they are meant to be miniature tanks, they are meant to be elite marines with a better armour save. They aren't and shouldn't be immune to small arms but using small arms against them is and should be inefficient.

All they need is to be able to assault out of deep strike.

Wat.
First- that guard figure is outside rapid fire. It stands to reason that if the termies are trying to close the gap, they're taking close range fire, which means 2.5 dead termies in a single shooting phase from that one unit.

Second- ten wounds on counter-shooting? Maybe you aren't aware of storm bolter stats? If the termies shoot first they kill a piddly 4 guard, 3 if they're standing in bushes. 2 if they are manning a defense line or in ruins. That is absolutely not even close to paying for a termie. Please do your math correctly before presenting it as fact.

You don't think they're meant to be miniature tanks? In tactical dreadnought armor? Are you aware of what a dreadnought is?

Martel732 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Well Martel, There is no where left for them to go to get cheesed up, it won't be long before everyone is rocking a 2++ and bolters are D weapons. That's probably an exaggeration, but the current level of power creep is unsustainable. If the spoilers for the battle for Verdos are any indication 40K is in for some big changes, and those changes look like a huge deescalation for all factions.

Just might be a slight exaggeration. You think? The current power creep is NOT unsustainable because math is not finite. There might be a 3rd ed style rewrite, but short of that, there is only one way to go: up.

Math is infinite, but D6s are not. Look at the 4 editions long arms race between Armor saves/invul saves vs. AP/str D, If that arms race is to continue into the new edition we are going to have to add tertiary rolls. How long do you think we can keep adding librarius conclaves and grav before the game is so bloated that it becomes unplayable. We need a rewrite, bad.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

Huron black heart wrote:
My fix would be to give them 5+ fnp and an extra wound, use your strength 8 to insta kill them as it should be, rather than masses of small arms fire currently being enough as it is now.
I'd also allow two heavy weapons in squads of 5.

OTT. Termies main problem is not their hardiness it is not being able to get stuck into close combat right out of deep strike. Let deep strikers (all deep strikers not just SM) assault straight out of deep strike and they are golden. Without assault out of deep strike the opponent has a narrow window of opportunity to pour everything he has at them before they wreck something important so of course he must do that. The fact that it does take 30 odd shootas to kill one termie, even without some stormshields in the front, tells me they are hardy enough against small arms. 30 ork shoota boyz are around the same cost as 5 termies.

For reference if 30 ork shootas let rip at 30 ork shootas they would kill 10 orks, which is worth 2 termies.

Really? So they're actually somewhat durable against the worst ballistic skill army in the game shooting their basic infantry guns? Kind of cherry-picking evidence there aren't you?

Even with your example, a set of 25 shoota boys (175 points) will kill 4.5 termies, (AKA sometimes the entire unit, sometimes all but one,) in a single shoot+charge turn, y'know, since they're actually a close combat army, and that's not even considering a nob with klaw which would be more efficient at it than his points in shoota boys.

They're supposed to be miniature tanks. All I want is for opponents to actually feel the need to use the correct weaponry on them. Currently they can use whatever weaponry they please, anti-infantry or anti-tank, and it all works. The terminators die to both. This is part of why meganobz are a bit better: they're twice as resilient to small arms, and as such they can be sent after small arms-wielding enemies while the rest of your army focuses on the heavy weapons that could kill the manz efficiently. Terminators can't do that. The small arms unit will butcher them just like the heavy weapons will.

Okay how about 30 Guard Lasguns with an officer to give the all "first rank, second rank fire". Works out at 1 dead termie again. If they shot at 30 Guard that would be 10 dead guard. 10 guard is worth 1.5 termies.

I don't think they are meant to be miniature tanks, they are meant to be elite marines with a better armour save. They aren't and shouldn't be immune to small arms but using small arms against them is and should be inefficient.

All they need is to be able to assault out of deep strike.

Wat.
First- that guard figure is outside rapid fire. It stands to reason that if the termies are trying to close the gap, they're taking close range fire, which means 2.5 dead termies in a single shooting phase from that one unit.

Second- ten wounds on counter-shooting? Maybe you aren't aware of storm bolter stats? If the termies shoot first they kill a piddly 4 guard, 3 if they're standing in bushes. 2 if they are manning a defense line or in ruins. That is absolutely not even close to paying for a termie. Please do your math correctly before presenting it as fact.

You don't think they're meant to be miniature tanks? In tactical dreadnought armor? Are you aware of what a dreadnought is?

The math is right just I wasn't clear enough for a space marine player to understand the basic assumptions in this hypothetical scenario. If one understands tactics then one wouldn't deep strike an elite close combat unit with the intention of purposely tar-pitting itself with a guard blob, quite to the contrary one would deep strike with the intention of murdering a company command squad, fisting up the rear of a baneblade (I understand space marines do love a good fisting in the rear) or mangling some backfield artillery or AA guns. Thus the termies would be attempting to deep strike on a point out of range of blobs or at least outside of rapid fire range. The Guard blob is attempting to shoot them off the map before the termies do their fisting thing on something precious and breakable but who are not themselves the target of the the termies. Even if the Termie player was so tactically inept (SM player so actually quite probable) as to plant himself right inside rapidfire range of 30 guard and the guard got off an order to for first rank, second rank fire that is still only 1.5 dead termies not 2.5 as you claimed (so your math is incorrect).

Secondly when I said "If they shot at 30 Guard that would be 10 dead guard. 10 guard is worth 1.5 termies." I was not refering to the termies counter shooting but to what 30 guard would do shooting 30 guard in order to illustrate the benefit that termie armour is bringing to their survivability verses small arms just as I did with the ork example actually. Incidentally inside rapid fire range 30 guard would kill 15 guard with first rank, second rank fire.

I have another mathhammer for you. SMs are not the only ones with deep striking close combat specialists which are not invincible to enemy fire. Orks have stormboyz. Stormboyz rock but they have the same problem that termies have in 7th ed. After deepstriking they have to stand there and let every enemy in range fill em full of lead before they get stuck in choppin. The resilence against enemy shooting that a termie achieves through matchless armour the orks do with a pile of bodies. So how does that work out for them? Well for fair comparison we should see what 30 guard with first rank, second rank fire would do to them (outside of rapid fire range) and well lucky for the stormboyz their fabulous 6+ armour save is actually relevant against lasguns. Still the result is 8.25 dead stormboyz. point wise a termie is worth nearly 4 stormboyz. So the stormboyz would take the equivalent of over 2 termies worth of causalties to the 1 dead termie the termies would suffer.

It is actually a little harder on the stormboyz than even this suggests because one obvious way to mitigate taking losses through shooting after deep strike is to deep strike somewhere out of LOS of those that could do you the most harm but that is much harder to do for a big pile of bodies (pointwise 19 stormboyz is about 5 termies) than just 5 extravagantly armoured elites. Another thing is that while stormboyz would murder a company command squad and gaurd blob they can't even scratch the paint of any vehicle let alone a baneblade, though the one powerklaw they could take might do a bit.

So don't avoid the issue: why not let termies and stormboyz do what they were made to do, assault straight out of deep strike? Wouldn't that also take wraithknights and riptides down a peg or two?

Terminators are especially embarrassing because they are less durable than a regular marine to anything other than AP3, and that's only if the marine is in the open.

Dial the snark back about 3 notches, please.

 SolarCross wrote:
The math is right just I wasn't clear enough for a space marine player to understand the basic assumptions in this hypothetical scenario... ...Even if the Termie player was so tactically inept (SM player so actually quite probable)...

My instincts seem to have been correct when you were arguing using incorrect math and incorrect knowledge of the unit in question. With this post you have lost any credibility as your entire opinion seems to be heavily influenced by a hatred of all things relating to space marines and the players who play them. I don't know if maybe you were the victim of a marine TFG or what, and frankly I don't care. Anyone afflicted with this kind of jaded attitude cannot have a rational discussion, so welcome to an ignore list. I don't need to be speaking with people who hate me because of which GW models I enjoy painting and putting on the table.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
The math is right just I wasn't clear enough for a space marine player to understand the basic assumptions in this hypothetical scenario... ...Even if the Termie player was so tactically inept (SM player so actually quite probable)...

My instincts seem to have been correct when you were arguing using incorrect math and incorrect knowledge of the unit in question. With this post you have lost any credibility as your entire opinion seems to be heavily influenced by a hatred of all things relating to space marines and the players who play them. I don't know if maybe you were the victim of a marine TFG or what, and frankly I don't care. Anyone afflicted with this kind of jaded attitude cannot have a rational discussion, so welcome to an ignore list. I don't need to be speaking with people who hate me because of which GW models I enjoy painting and putting on the table.

This, I thought exactly the same thing. Marine players are a large part of the community and to put them down in the way you have done is condescending to them and makes you look stupid.
Changing the rules to allow assaults from deepstrike won't fix terminators, fluff wise it doesnt make sense not to be able to but balance wise it does

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
The math is right just I wasn't clear enough for a space marine player to understand the basic assumptions in this hypothetical scenario... ...Even if the Termie player was so tactically inept (SM player so actually quite probable)...

My instincts seem to have been correct when you were arguing using incorrect math and incorrect knowledge of the unit in question. With this post you have lost any credibility as your entire opinion seems to be heavily influenced by a hatred of all things relating to space marines and the players who play them. I don't know if maybe you were the victim of a marine TFG or what, and frankly I don't care. Anyone afflicted with this kind of jaded attitude cannot have a rational discussion, so welcome to an ignore list. I don't need to be speaking with people who hate me because of which GW models I enjoy painting and putting on the table.

Okay fair enough, I guess I do have some apologies to offer for two things. One, I did make a mistake not in the math but in thinking the invulnerable save could be had in addition to the armour save instead as an alternative save. I freely admit that makes me look stupid. The other thing was dropping some snarkyness in with my argument. It was not motivated by hatred though, just bad manners. I'm still a bit new here and haven't gotten use to the nettiquette of dakka. On other forums that I hung out on a high level of snarkiness was de rigeur. So sorry for all that.

Just to be completely transparent, terminators die at exactly half the rate of marines to most small arms fire. However, even at 35 ppm, you are looking at losing 5.6 pts per incoming wound vs 4.7 pts per incoming wound with regular marines. Against AP 2, you are losing 23 pts per incoming wound vs 14 pts per incoming wound with regular marines. In cover, that goes down to 9.3 pts per incoming wound.