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10 wounds of t5 with 2+/5++ would actually be significantly hard the chew through (assuming t5 2w termies.) I don't think I'd have any problem deep striking them with that statline as part of a turn 2 threat overload strategy, and I would fully expect some of them to make it to happy-fisty time as opposed to the current situation.

I'd actually run some of my 40+ termies if they had that statline. :|

In BA, Toss in Karlaen for reroll reserves and run archangels for less scatter, and you could be staring down a pretty rough list.

I would be on board with Terminators being able to ignore Unwieldy, either in part (maybe they go down to I3 or I2) or altogether, which would actually make their Power Fists and Thunder Hammers scary, especially if paired with increased defensive capability.

BrianDavion wrote:
sounds to me Martel like your definition of a crap unit is "Can I point at a enemy unit and erase them in one turn" that kinda mentality is what's horriably wrong with 40k today. I'd rather GW not continue to give us more units like that, hell I'd rather see them REDUCE it (I'd be all for them reducing AP of all ranged AP4 and lower weapons by 1 make armor saves useful again)

I see it this way, Terminators should be about DURABILITY, with Centurions being about FIREPOWER. you use Cents when you wanna kill something fast. termies are what you park in area you need to take insane firepower.

Even if you gave them 2 wounds, they all vaporize to an ion accelerator still. I'm being realistic. None of my models last against Tau and Eldar, because I'm not fielding a TWC superfriends death star. So that means I need to kill them first. Because you can't absorb what Tau and Eldar can do without very specific stats.

Oh look, it's this thread again. Pops up every two weeks with the same posts every time.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Oh look, it's this thread again. Pops up every two weeks with the same posts every time.

...said the guy with a start date of less than three months ago...

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Oh look, it's this thread again. Pops up every two weeks with the same posts every time.

...said the guy with a start date of less than three months ago...

They grow up and get cynical so fast these days.

Not wrong though. Terminators, what’s wrong with them, and how to fix it is a very popular topic, and frequently battered about.

The main problem is that the game has moved on. They remain largely unchanged since the 3rd edition reboot. But while AP2 was less prevalent back then, you can’t swing a dead grot these days without someone putting a pieplate on you and deleting your squad. And they are still T4 1W models, so just spamming low end fire on them and watching the ones come up kills them just as dead.

Stormbolters used to be a decent way of projecting fire on the move. Rapid fire was a lot worse back in the day. Today it’s hardly an upgrade in fire over a 5 man tac squad.

If I had to pick a way to fix them, I’d probably go with the 1+ armor save, and make the 5++ a FNP check. That should help with the survivability. Going back to 2 heavies per 5 men would help the damage output. Might also do something like give them shred for their SBs.

Why not go in a different directions?

Make Tac Terminators Obsec troops. Having a 2+/5++ troop unit in cover, on an objective, with decent firepower and scary melee seems like an interesting choice.

They'd be more expensive than scouts or marines, but a lot harder to dislodge. And that seems like an interesting role.

Obsec Land Raiders might also be obnoxious and fun.

Terminators should all have Assault Cannons.

No seriously, hear me out. They are expensive, slow and fragile for their price, but with all assault cannons they would deal intimidating damage. Adjust the price accordingly and you have a scary unit indeed.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Why not go in a different directions?

Make Tac Terminators Obsec troops. Having a 2+/5++ troop unit in cover, on an objective, with decent firepower and scary melee seems like an interesting choice.

They'd be more expensive than scouts or marines, but a lot harder to dislodge. And that seems like an interesting role.

Obsec Land Raiders might also be obnoxious and fun.

This. Maybe drop them to 35 or 40 PPM? I think that'd be fun. Too bad DW lost their Terminator Troops :(

Make rending ap3, make smash ap3, move some ap 2 weapons to ap3 status (since there are very few) and suddenly 2+ saves become relevant again.

There is that pesky issue of small arms fire drowning out saves as well, since a tactical unit is more points efficent for killing terminators in a fire fight. That could be addressed by a toughness increase, or better yet a strength reduction across the board on ranged weapons.

With the quantity of fire power seen now, it would be nice to bring it back in line.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Terminators should all have Assault Cannons.

No seriously, hear me out. They are expensive, slow and fragile for their price, but with all assault cannons they would deal intimidating damage. Adjust the price accordingly and you have a scary unit indeed.

I have made this argument too. Or make their Storm Bolters two-shot Assault Cannons. Str 6 AP 4, Heavy 2 Rending. That way the old kit is still usable, but they still get more oomph. Call them Terminator Storm Bolters. And then let them reroll failed Armor Saves. Change volume of fire from wrecking them 1/6th of the time to 1/36th of the time.

 Konrax wrote:
Make rending ap3, make smash ap3, move some ap 2 weapons to ap3 status (since there are very few) and suddenly 2+ saves become relevant again.

There is that pesky issue of small arms fire drowning out saves as well, since a tactical unit is more points efficent for killing terminators in a fire fight. That could be addressed by a toughness increase, or better yet a strength reduction across the board on ranged weapons.

With the quantity of fire power seen now, it would be nice to bring it back in line.

It's not that simple because you just made Riptides and Dreadknights even more obnoxious.

Well...we could always go back to where AP and Strength modified armour saves and give Terminators back their 3+ save on 2D6.

 Happyjew wrote:
Well...we could always go back to where AP and Strength modified armour saves and give Terminators back their 3+ save on 2D6.

Not on a D6 system. That game was terrible. Regular power armor was basically useless and terminators still bought the farm quickly because krak missiles and lascannons were -6 armor save. And genestealers punching you were -3.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Why not go in a different directions?

Make Tac Terminators Obsec troops. Having a 2+/5++ troop unit in cover, on an objective, with decent firepower and scary melee seems like an interesting choice.

They'd be more expensive than scouts or marines, but a lot harder to dislodge. And that seems like an interesting role.

Obsec Land Raiders might also be obnoxious and fun.

seems like a solid set up this strikes me as more a formation thing then anything.

random proposed rules...

Terminator Bulwark:
Sometimes a chapter must hold an important position against all comers, sometimes it's a fortress othertimes an important location. the important thing is that the defenders cannot give an inch of ground. for these situations a Space Marine Chapter employs the legendary 1st company Terminator Bulwark.

Requirements
2-5 Terminator Squads

Special Rules:
Stubborn
Objective secured.

May re-roll Invunerable Saves.


Please note that the terminator Bulwark specifies terminator squads not assault terminators, so no re-rollable 3++s

This unit doesn't synergize well in a list. They just sit there, not dying, and contribute very little.

THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

The problem with Terminators is both antiquated rules AND the fact that Centurions do their job better.

Centurions shouldn't exist. Terminators should have 2 heavy weapons per squad at every level and get access to some useful heavy weapons BESIDES the Cyclone Launcher (the AssCan is no longer awesome like it was in 4th edition and the Heavy Flamer is a joke).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

Reroll armor saves against things with AP4 or worse.

That way you have to point anti-tank weapons at them to kill them reliably, not spam them down. You'd also have to reduce the number of AP2 weaponry.

 Lukash_ wrote:
Reroll armor saves against things with AP4 or worse.

That way you have to point anti-tank weapons at them to kill them reliably, not spam them down. You'd also have to reduce the number of AP2 weaponry.

You can't reduce AP 2 weaponry until the Riptide and Dreadknight have 3+ saves.

The problem with Termies (at least that I've seen) is that the Tactical Variety lacks a real punch at range, and both variants are over-costed and get easily drowned in small arms fire.

So, I think there's a few things that could be done

1. Make them T5 and 2 wounds as others in this thread have suggested.

2. Give them re-rolls on armor saves vs. weapons with a certain AP (maybe 3 or higher?).

3. Improve Storm Bolters. There's been a lot of talk about this, so I won't re-hash it here.

4. Lower their cost.

I'm sure there are other ways too, but these are the ones that spring to mind for me. Any combination of these things might help to make Termies a little more worthwhile I feel

On top of the suggestions for 2 wounds or toughness 5 or drop in points. I'd also like to add that some kind of shunt teleport up to 30" like GK interceptors would be nice. Once per game and can't assault afterwards, but very useful if their transport blows up first turn so they aren't left out of the game for 5 turns.

Strength 5 storm bolters is fine too.

I'd also like to see 1 in 3 terminators be able to select heavy weapons, or possibly just 2 in 5.

I just had an utterly crazy idea that made sense...so it can't be right, so I am going to bounce it off you guys.

Get rid of Centurion squads. Realistically they are terminators, you can say whatever you like about them but they are basically terminators +1. Instead of buffing the ever living crap out of Terminators just include centurions into a terminator squad.

One of the chief complaints about Terminators is that they lack offensive ability, which I agree with 100% (I am an Ork Player, I laugh at Terminators). If you included Centurions into Terminator squads you would not only get rid of the most annoying unit in the SM codex (Devastator Centurions) you would also put Terminators on the same page as Tacticals in the sense that they are good at everything. Say for every 3 Terminators you can take 1 Centurion and equip it however you would like. This would also not effect how you equip those terminators, so for every 3 terminators you can equip one with a Cyclone or whatever you would like. Finally, get rid of the restrictions on gear. If you want to take a terminator with a Storm Shield in a normal (Tactical) squad then you can.

9 Terminators and 3 Centurions would be fearsome on the board as one single unit, you would pretty much get rid of the option of a transport but at the same time you would be amazing as far as defenses. Put a couple (2-3) Storm Shield guys up from to soak up that fire power, give the other handful of guys some Cyclone missile launchers and then give your Centurions those Grav weapons which annihilate most armies and since they can split fire you are golden.

I think this would make them all that much more effective and synergize that much more with the rest of the SM codex.

Martel732 wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:
Reroll armor saves against things with AP4 or worse.

That way you have to point anti-tank weapons at them to kill them reliably, not spam them down. You'd also have to reduce the number of AP2 weaponry.

You can't reduce AP 2 weaponry until the Riptide and Dreadknight have 3+ saves.

Make both of those units walkers instead.

Make no monsterous creature ever have a 2+ save.

GW has known that terminators has been crap for editions. The answer to this is the same reason why eldar has been overpowered 7 editions in a row, why tyranids has always sucked, why orks has always sucked, why the pyrovore is the pyrovore, etc.

The only mistake GW ever fixed are pariahs (which were a really sweet model!) by retconning them out of existence.

GW cares not for you nor their rules, they only care about your money (and keeping eldar strong, in phil kelly's case)

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

8 Power Fist attacks and two Power Sword attacks isn't capable offense. Neither is having Storm Bolters or having ONE Heavy Weapon per 5. On top of their stupidly slow speed.

They have crap offense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

8 Power Fist attacks and two Power Sword attacks isn't capable offense. Neither is having Storm Bolters or having ONE Heavy Weapon per 5. On top of their stupidly slow speed.

They have crap offense.

8 strength 8 AP 2 hits are crap offense? the problem is as said "they never get to use them" terminators are slow, lack much in the way of transport options (if we could get a hundred point weaponless Land Raider for Termies they'd be pretty decent) and strike at I1.

if they didn't have those problems getting in the way it'd be seen as reasonably decent offense.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

8 Power Fist attacks and two Power Sword attacks isn't capable offense. Neither is having Storm Bolters or having ONE Heavy Weapon per 5. On top of their stupidly slow speed.

They have crap offense.

8 strength 8 AP 2 hits are crap offense? the problem is as said "they never get to use them" terminators are slow, lack much in the way of transport options (if we could get a hundred point weaponless Land Raider for Termies they'd be pretty decent) and strike at I1.

if they didn't have those problems getting in the way it'd be seen as reasonably decent offense.

You don't get 8 hits, you get 8 attacks. That's 4 hits on average. 4 S8 AP2 hits turn 3 or 4 when you've crossed the board with a 175 point unit is rather awful offense.

Terminators only being T4 just melts my brain. I can't understand it. I also think they should have a much better invul save,, it fits the fluff. I rarely need 4 power fists in a squad, I would prefer the option to swap for power weapons.

T5 with a 2+ invul would fix them, and they would be about right points wise.