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How to fix terminators in two easy steps:
Remove Terminator profile
Rename Centurions to "Terminators"

Warden wrote:
Terminators only being T4 just melts my brain. I can't understand it. I also think they should have a much better invul save,, it fits the fluff. I rarely need 4 power fists in a squad, I would prefer the option to swap for power weapons.

T5 with a 2+ invul would fix them, and they would be about right points wise.

SM are T4 and inside the Terminator armour is a marine, hence T4.

If GW stopped handwaving ridiculous stats and weapons into newer kits and stopped leaving older units in the dirt we wouldn't have arbitary stats like centurions being T5. T5 marines is what melts my brain.

BrianDavion wrote:

seems like a solid set up this strikes me as more a formation thing then anything.

random proposed rules...

Terminator Bulwark:
Sometimes a chapter must hold an important position against all comers, sometimes it's a fortress othertimes an important location. the important thing is that the defenders cannot give an inch of ground. for these situations a Space Marine Chapter employs the legendary 1st company Terminator Bulwark.

Requirements
2-5 Terminator Squads

Special Rules:
Stubborn
Objective secured.

May re-roll Invunerable Saves.


Please note that the terminator Bulwark specifies terminator squads not assault terminators, so no re-rollable 3++s

Nice

Add an optional character (Termie Captain) who also gets Obsec and it would be a very fun little formation to field!

I know dakka is more of a "table or bust" mentality but Terminators scrapping over key objectives and bullying cheaper troops seems like a great use for them.

 MarsNZ wrote:

Warden wrote:
Terminators only being T4 just melts my brain. I can't understand it. I also think they should have a much better invul save,, it fits the fluff. I rarely need 4 power fists in a squad, I would prefer the option to swap for power weapons.

T5 with a 2+ invul would fix them, and they would be about right points wise.

SM are T4 and inside the Terminator armour is a marine, hence T4.

If GW stopped handwaving ridiculous stats and weapons into newer kits and stopped leaving older units in the dirt we wouldn't have arbitary stats like centurions being T5. T5 marines is what melts my brain.

Bikes add a point of toughness. Why not TDA?

I think they should get T5 and a re-rollable save.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
On top of the suggestions for 2 wounds or toughness 5 or drop in points. I'd also like to add that some kind of shunt teleport up to 30" like GK interceptors would be nice. Once per game and can't assault afterwards, but very useful if their transport blows up first turn so they aren't left out of the game for 5 turns.

Strength 5 storm bolters is fine too.

I'd also like to see 1 in 3 terminators be able to select heavy weapons, or possibly just 2 in 5.

I don't think a Shunt moves fits for Terminators, but I think there's definate scope for them to play around with the Teleport Mechanic.
It's on my wish list for terminators

1. Improved Teleport, including ability to re-deploy once per game
2. T5
3. 4++
4. Ignores Unwieldy
5. Two heavies per 5 models minimum. Heck, after Eldar jetbikes, allow every model to have a heavy weapon.

BrianDavion wrote:

Terminator Bulwark:
Sometimes a chapter must hold an important position against all comers, sometimes it's a fortress othertimes an important location. the important thing is that the defenders cannot give an inch of ground. for these situations a Space Marine Chapter employs the legendary 1st company Terminator Bulwark.

Requirements
2-5 Terminator Squads

Special Rules:
Stubborn
Objective secured.

May re-roll Invunerable Saves.
Please note that the terminator Bulwark specifies terminator squads not assault terminators, so no re-rollable 3++s

I'd run these.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless,
and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

: )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its really funny how SM players and Ork players have a different perspective on their terminators.

There's a reason some Terminators in HH have 2 wounds.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Make them 30 ppm, give them another wound and make Stormbolters assault 3. Give the option for them to take two heavy weapons and 0-2 cyclone missile launchers per squad regardless of size.

I'm not sure about all of it; personally I'd refine that to 2 Wounds each, Storm Bolters as Assault 2/Heavy 3, and drop to 30ppm with regular Power Weapons with 5 point upgrade to Power Fist (+10 for Chainfist) would do-it.

Assault Terminators would just be the Wounds and points drop, with increase to the cost of Storm Shield + Thunder Hammer to compensate. I'd like to see them able to pay extra to be able to charge after deep striking (or keep their current cost and make it standard), so long as they didn't scatter onto terrain, as they're teleporting in wearing fully sealed armour rather than dropping from the air etc. This would make Drop Pods with teleport homers even more useful, as they could eliminate scatter making it easy to use this.


Deathwing should remain the ones able to take mixed units but without any reduction in points, instead getting charge on arrival as standard, plus regaining their twin-linked on arrival bonus, however they can't charge on arrival if they shoot (i.e- you get one of these only).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
THANK YOU, Martel.

All you do by increasing durability is making sure I just ignore them entirely instead of just getting a quick KP. What good is durability if you don't have a capable offense in the first place?

they do have a capable offense. It happens to be several power fist attacks. The problem is that they never live to use them currently. It's a fairly simple matter to make sure that the opponent has to deal with them by simply moving them towards the relic or an emperors will objective.

Lychstars are used competitively that way after all, and they are very similar, except with a huge jump in durability. If Terminators were that durable for around that price point, they would be competitive as well. It's the same thing that makes riptides and wk's exceptionally terrifying. The fact that they are almost unkillable by many entire armies ensures they get to pour out their offensive payload many times during a game, whereas current termies shoot once and die.

8 Power Fist attacks and two Power Sword attacks isn't capable offense. Neither is having Storm Bolters or having ONE Heavy Weapon per 5. On top of their stupidly slow speed.

They have crap offense.

8 strength 8 AP 2 hits are crap offense? the problem is as said "they never get to use them" terminators are slow, lack much in the way of transport options (if we could get a hundred point weaponless Land Raider for Termies they'd be pretty decent) and strike at I1.

if they didn't have those problems getting in the way it'd be seen as reasonably decent offense.

You don't get 8 hits, you get 8 attacks. That's 4 hits on average. 4 S8 AP2 hits turn 3 or 4 when you've crossed the board with a 175 point unit is rather awful offense.

Thank you for typing that.

Add on top of that I'd still take Assault Centurion over either Terminator variant. Three hurricane Bolters, a S10 weapon, Melta TL Guns, Split fire, and all I need is a Pod to compensate?
Centurions are the durable heavy hitters. Terminators haven't been good at that role even WITH two assault cannons. They need a change offensively, as all increasing durability does is ensure I'm still taking Centurions.

to fix terminators you would need to go back and change so much about the game right now, youd probably have most competitive players throw half there armies out a nearby window because of how badly you would need to brick them.

The simplest fix for Terminators would be to lower their price down to 25 points per model or so. They do useful things and have useful weapons, so it's not like they're a hopelessly broken unit that can't achieve anything. Point cost is what's holding them back.

 Saber wrote:
The simplest fix for Terminators would be to lower their price down to 25 points per model or so. They do useful things and have useful weapons, so it's not like they're a hopelessly broken unit that can't achieve anything. Point cost is what's holding them back.

Tactical Terminators have fairly useless firearms. They need some kind of buff to their shooting too.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Saber wrote:
The simplest fix for Terminators would be to lower their price down to 25 points per model or so. They do useful things and have useful weapons, so it's not like they're a hopelessly broken unit that can't achieve anything. Point cost is what's holding them back.

Tactical Terminators have fairly useless firearms. They need some kind of buff to their shooting too.

At 25 ppm, useless firearms don't matter anymore. You are just using a wave assault of 2+ save powerfists. Stupid conceptually, but 7th ed is stupid lethal.

This discussion again? Is it time again already? Ok...

Terminators suffer in all categories: fortitude, firepower, deployment & closecombat capabilities. The power creep left them behind in 3rd ed. I still have the whitedwarf where Andy Chambers had to assign them a 5++, because a 2+ alone was totally insufficient for their points and table top purpose. Heres what I believe they need to improve (this also assumes they go back to 40 points):

A 1+ save. Remember a 1 is always a failure.

Storm bolters should be salvo 2/4

2 heavy weapons per 5 men

The sergeant can choose any terminator h2h weapons

Terminators ignore Unwieldy usr. If thats too much give them an additional attack from also having a SB, much like a pistol.

All firing at Terminators that DS is snap shooting. Including Intercept fire.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
How to fix terminators in two easy steps:
Remove Terminator profile
Rename Centurions to "Terminators"

Exalted.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Saber wrote:
The simplest fix for Terminators would be to lower their price down to 25 points per model or so. They do useful things and have useful weapons, so it's not like they're a hopelessly broken unit that can't achieve anything. Point cost is what's holding them back.

Tactical Terminators have fairly useless firearms. They need some kind of buff to their shooting too.

At 25 ppm, useless firearms don't matter anymore. You are just using a wave assault of 2+ save powerfists. Stupid conceptually, but 7th ed is stupid lethal.

Id drink to that! Honor guard are already 2+ armor with power weapons at that price and they can sweep and hit at initiative, so it seems like a fair trade to me

Hmmm... There's quite a few ways to make them better, but I think what I would like to see is...

1. Assault 3 storm bolters
2. 4++ invulnerable save
3. +1T provided by the armour

TDA should give +2 T.

This would make them a viable option to bikes on HQs and also make the Terminators really tanky.

Adjust price as necessary.

Terminators aren't meant to be long rang fighters. They are close quarters specialists, which is why they have the heavy armour to begin with. Easiest fix is to give FNP 4+,and change stormbolters to assault 3. That keeps them different enough from Centurions.

.

But why are they getting FNP in the first place? There's no justification for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
TDA should give +2 T.

This would make them a viable option to bikes on HQs and also make the Terminators really tanky.

Adjust price as necessary.

It wouldn't because it is easy to get EW for your Biker guys (TSE, TGC, TSM) and creating Bikers as troops.
Plus the mobility of bikes will always make Biker HQ's better a choice.

This is a simple result of incessant power creep and it was always bound to happen. As more and more larger, more powerful units emerge forces in turn receive more and more incredibly powerful weapons.

The "AP" mechanic started in 3rd expedites play but really shortcuts a lot of armoured units. As the game and universe developed and the kits became plastic and ever-larger the Terminators were always going to start to fall behind.

In 2nd edition they were...it. The best unit without question in the game as far as survivability. But, the battlefield was much more restricted back then. You didn't have Knights, Baneblades etc. kicking around on tables and 10" templates being tossed around with AP2 etc. With the change of the battlefield environment I'd expect Terminators to be upgraded or down-costed next go round.

While time consuming, old save modifiers were easier to manage with Terminator armour - allowing units to threaten Terminators without simply ignoring their armour.

Elbows wrote:
This is a simple result of incessant power creep and it was always bound to happen. As more and more larger, more powerful units emerge forces in turn receive more and more incredibly powerful weapons.

The "AP" mechanic started in 3rd expedites play but really shortcuts a lot of armoured units. As the game and universe developed and the kits became plastic and ever-larger the Terminators were always going to start to fall behind.

In 2nd edition they were...it. The best unit without question in the game as far as survivability. But, the battlefield was much more restricted back then. You didn't have Knights, Baneblades etc. kicking around on tables and 10" templates being tossed around with AP2 etc. With the change of the battlefield environment I'd expect Terminators to be upgraded or down-costed next go round.

While time consuming, old save modifiers were easier to manage with Terminator armour - allowing units to threaten Terminators without simply ignoring their armour.

Loyalists terminators were still useless garbage in 2nd because... wait for it... their firepower sucked. CSM terminators could get reaper autocannons and blastmasters and stomped all over the loyalists.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Terminators aren't meant to be long rang fighters. They are close quarters specialists, which is why they have the heavy armour to begin with. Easiest fix is to give FNP 4+,and change stormbolters to assault 3. That keeps them different enough from Centurions.

.

I agree, that Terminators aren't supposed to be armored long range special weapons squads. The problem is, they give up nearly all forms of useful ranged attack to be only slightly tanky in today's meta. Other than CC with a TH/SS, there exists a better solution in the Astartes arsenal for virtually every other scenario; and most of those units are going to be more flexible. I mean, pick your poison - sternguard, devastators, scouts, centurions, command can all be generally more helpful.

It's a crying shame because Terminators have some of the coolest models in the game

Yoyoyo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

seems like a solid set up this strikes me as more a formation thing then anything.

random proposed rules...

Terminator Bulwark:
Sometimes a chapter must hold an important position against all comers, sometimes it's a fortress othertimes an important location. the important thing is that the defenders cannot give an inch of ground. for these situations a Space Marine Chapter employs the legendary 1st company Terminator Bulwark.

Requirements
2-5 Terminator Squads

Special Rules:
Stubborn
Objective secured.

May re-roll Invunerable Saves.


Please note that the terminator Bulwark specifies terminator squads not assault terminators, so no re-rollable 3++s

Nice

Add an optional character (Termie Captain) who also gets Obsec and it would be a very fun little formation to field!

I know dakka is more of a "table or bust" mentality but Terminators scrapping over key objectives and bullying cheaper troops seems like a great use for them.

I wanted to devise some ideas on how to make them more useful while also finding them a distinct niche. with the existance of Centurions now, I think the "ohh just give them moar dakka!" mentality is a bad one. space marine players should rather instead be presented with a choice of "dakka or survivability" when chooseing between these two units.
I think assault termies aren't in that bad a place, but tatical termies could use a buff, but the easiest way to buff them without radically changing terminator armor, or giving them new weapons, or buffing other weapons which could have unforseen concequences (sternguard can take stormbolters) would be a formation. so I thought a formation based around taking and holding ground seemed approperate. objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful.

"objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful."

I'd still never use them. They still aren't DOING anything. Standing there and dying slightly less slowly isn't beating Eldar.

 Ashiraya wrote:
TDA should give +2 T.

This would make them a viable option to bikes on HQs and also make the Terminators really tanky.

Adjust price as necessary.

So what, T7 nurgle Termis, T6 Chaos Lords and Chapter Masters.

Ah ah, no, never, pls.

Martel732 wrote:
"objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful."

I'd still never use them. They still aren't DOING anything. Standing there and dying slightly less slowly isn't beating Eldar.

Do you not play games with objectives? seriously?

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"objective secured re-roll invul save termies seem like a not bad thing. they're not gonna be a "take this and win any game" troop. but for the right enviroment they'll be pretty useful."

I'd still never use them. They still aren't DOING anything. Standing there and dying slightly less slowly isn't beating Eldar.

Do you not play games with objectives? seriously?

Yes, I play games with objectives. But just standing on an objective isn't enough.

Especially when those Jetbikes will cross over last turn and contest the objectives. Hence why Terminators need more killing power.

It isn't that hard to logic, ya know?