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 Elbows wrote:
I think one of the main issues here is that you guys are trying to fix Terminators when the reality is that the game itself needs fixing. It's become a jumbled mess of a thousand special rules...and increasingly large models which inundates the game with a ridiculous amount of super high power weaponry.

The game is broken, not the unit.

The unit wasn't good to begin with...

Nonsense. When do you consider it "began"? 2nd edition etc. terminators were plenty powerful/dangerous/durable.

Seeing as people here mostly agree that Terminators were average in 2nd, I can guess around that time period.

 Elbows wrote:
The game is broken, not the unit.

Ha ha. I should make a dakkadakka guide to "fixing units".

Unit dies easily? Add 1T, +1W, or FNP
Unit has mediocre firepower? Add Shred or Assault 3
Unit is melee? Allow charge from DS or assaulting from transport
Unit has random psychic powers? Allow it to choose powers
Unit is undercosted MC/GMC? Turn it into a walker
Unit is CSM? Refer to 3.5th era codex, complain at length about GW, receive mod warning after enthusiastically debating merits of Mutilators
Unit is Blood Angel faction? You should probably just proxy as Space Marines
Unit is Eldar/Necron/Tau? L2P please

That about covers it. We're well on our way to creating a better 40k

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seeing as people here mostly agree that Terminators were average in 2nd, I can guess around that time period.

Sure...seems legit. You guys have some weird memories.

I do agree the problem with termies can be summed up as "too much high AP weaponry" AP2 and even AP3 should be kinda rare. the problem with massed fire is a differant problem all together and mostly comes from the upscaling. one fix might be to give termies a special ability that lets them take an armor save and an invul save vs the same attack.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
The game is broken, not the unit.

Ha ha. I should make a dakkadakka guide to "fixing units".

Unit dies easily? Add 1T, +1W, or FNP
Unit has mediocre firepower? Add Shred or Assault 3
Unit is melee? Allow charge from DS or assaulting from transport
Unit has random psychic powers? Allow it to choose powers
Unit is undercosted MC/GMC? Turn it into a walker
Unit is CSM? Refer to 3.5th era codex, complain at length about GW, receive mod warning after enthusiastically debating merits of Mutilators
Unit is Blood Angel faction? You should probably just proxy as Space Marines
Unit is Eldar/Necron/Tau? L2P please

That about covers it. We're well on our way to creating a better 40k

This is true. I'd say little of this forum knows how to balance things.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
The game is broken, not the unit.

Ha ha. I should make a dakkadakka guide to "fixing units".

Unit dies easily? Add 1T, +1W, or FNP
Unit has mediocre firepower? Add Shred or Assault 3
Unit is melee? Allow charge from DS or assaulting from transport
Unit has random psychic powers? Allow it to choose powers
Unit is undercosted MC/GMC? Turn it into a walker
Unit is CSM? Refer to 3.5th era codex, complain at length about GW, receive mod warning after enthusiastically debating merits of Mutilators
Unit is Blood Angel faction? You should probably just proxy as Space Marines
Unit is Eldar/Necron/Tau? L2P please

That about covers it. We're well on our way to creating a better 40k

Truer words have not been spoken.

But if you did that, then we'd have nothing to complain argue talk about!

 Elbows wrote:
Nonsense. When do you consider it "began"? 2nd edition etc. terminators were plenty powerful/dangerous/durable.

No, they weren't. Stormbolters were still terrible, and krak missiles and lascannons turned them into soup. As did genestealers.

Martel732 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Nonsense. When do you consider it "began"? 2nd edition etc. terminators were plenty powerful/dangerous/durable.

No, they weren't. Stormbolters were still terrible, and krak missiles and lascannons turned them into soup. As did genestealers.

I'll give "storm bolters were always terrible", but tda saves were bad? 3+ on 2d6 was pretty sweet. I used to walk Grey Knights through Squat plasma cannon fire.

 Red Marine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Nonsense. When do you consider it "began"? 2nd edition etc. terminators were plenty powerful/dangerous/durable.

No, they weren't. Stormbolters were still terrible, and krak missiles and lascannons turned them into soup. As did genestealers.

I'll give "storm bolters were always terrible", but tda saves were bad? 3+ on 2d6 was pretty sweet. I used to walk Grey Knights through Squat plasma cannon fire.

They weren't bad, but lack of offense always doomed them. Plus, if you pointed the right weapons at them, they still died quickly. Plasma was very different in 2nd.

 Konrax wrote:
Terminators are meant to fill the roll of durable hold the line type unit. Sure they will eventually grinde down an enemy, but exceptional ranged damage is left to centurions and heavy weapons teams.

They've absolutely never ever been meant to fill that role. They've always been THE elite strike unit.

I'll say again that the solution is no to make them better defensively or offensively, but to make them better at maneuvering, and especially straight after teleporting. To me, this has kinda been done with some formations already, so my proposed solution is to let them make an initiative check. If successful, they can either run and shoot, or charge from deep strike, depending on the flavour of terminator. That way, deep striking into a dangerous position is still very risky - you MIGHT get to charge, but you might fail and get shot to hell... so where do you want to deploy?

 Fifty wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Terminators are meant to fill the roll of durable hold the line type unit. Sure they will eventually grinde down an enemy, but exceptional ranged damage is left to centurions and heavy weapons teams.

They've absolutely never ever been meant to fill that role. They've always been THE elite strike unit.

I'll say again that the solution is no to make them better defensively or offensively, but to make them better at maneuvering, and especially straight after teleporting. To me, this has kinda been done with some formations already, so my proposed solution is to let them make an initiative check. If successful, they can either run and shoot, or charge from deep strike, depending on the flavour of terminator. That way, deep striking into a dangerous position is still very risky - you MIGHT get to charge, but you might fail and get shot to hell... so where do you want to deploy?

I would disagree, they aren't bikes, and deep strike suicide units are better filled by drop pod vets. Melee terminators function well offensively, but regular ones aren't good at anything in particular. Mainly because their only real advantage, which is their armour, fails to statistically protect them for their price against all forms of fire.

errrbody talkin bout termies while the big meaty man sit down and weep.

Poor Ogryns.