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So recently me and my friends have been having a lot of discussions about Terminators. And the fact is, they're just not cutting it. They fall easily to other armies that have models that cost the same points but have, like, 2 wounds or whatever. And with the large quantity of AP 2 weapons now available, they are just plain underpowered.

I think that adding just 1 to their toughness would help, or (even better) giving them 2 wounds. Do you guys have any ideas that would help to make them just a little more balanced, or capable?

Then you're making them Centurions.
They're supposed to be different from Centurions.

That's why I've always proposed S5 Storm Bolters, two heavy weapons on a minimum squad, and Lightning Claw Terminators starting at 30 points. Now they have a role of being a tactical strike I guess. Still an improvement either way.

You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

We play them as Armour 1 in my group now... a roll of 1 is always a failed save, but AP2 weapons don't hurt them. So far it's worked out well.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

Make them 30 ppm, give them another wound and make Stormbolters assault 3. Give the option for them to take two heavy weapons and 0-2 cyclone missile launchers per squad regardless of size.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Seconded.

<sarcasm>
Yes, poor SM. Your "underpowered" units are still better than some of our better units. Must be rough.
</sarcasm>

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

Let them fire their weapons twice each Shooting Phase. And give them two wounds. Basically, make them mini-Centurions.

Just make them t7 and increase the firepower of a storm bolter. Don't make them cost more.

I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

I'm expecting them to do work of a squad that costs what they cost. They usually do nothing.

Nomeny wrote:
I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

They ARE supposed to be Super-Marines!

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

this

Nomeny wrote:
I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

Uhhhh... They are supposed to be elite marines that can survive through a crap ton of stuff with "tactical dreadnought armor." They're supposed to be like small walking tanks. And they pay the points for it...they just don't have the rules to back it up.

And what on earth are you "terminating" when they drop in before dying? gretchin in the open? We have better suicide units like podded sternguard.

To be in touch with their flavor, they need to be t5 2w at least. That would make them much more likely to see a combat and actually get to use their fists, increasing their typical damage output in a game significantly.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

Uhhhh... They are supposed to be elite marines that can survive through a crap ton of stuff with "tactical dreadnought armor." They're supposed to be like small walking tanks. And they pay the points for it...they just don't have the rules to back it up.

And what on earth are you "terminating" when they drop in before dying? gretchin in the open? We have better suicide units like podded sternguard.

To be in touch with their flavor, they need to be t5 2w at least. That would make them much more likely to see a combat and actually get to use their fists, increasing their typical damage output in a game significantly.

To be fair, marines should not have any suicide squads at all.

Yes meganobz suck too. Yes vespid suck too. Yes chaos marines suck too. Yes dreadnoughts and helbrutes and penitent engines suck too. Please go discuss about the meganobz in a meganobz thread. Derailing other threads with "but this unit is worse!" helps nothing.

Seriously, why does every thread like this have to devolve into "MY CODEX SUCKS WORSE THAN YOURS!!!!" No one, and I mean NO ONE, will argue that Orks don't suck and don't need a big boost. Seriously. If the norm of the game is going to be Eldar, Tau, Necrons and Codex: Space Marines (select chapters), then other codexes should be brought up to that level. Absolutely bring Orks, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, and Tyranids and everything in between up to the level of the big boys. I would love it. Because the game is literally no fun when the big boys can ROFLSTOMP any army but each other.

That being said, all of that doesn't change the fact that Terminators suck and have sucked for several editions. This thread is about fixing THEM. Not fixing Orks or Tyranids.

Meganobz are better than terminators imo, as they are more resistant to be chipped out by small arms. They are only weaker vs S8+ AP 2 or better, which is actually getting rare. Because high str is usually low ROF, which now sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Seriously, why does every thread like this have to devolve into "MY CODEX SUCKS WORSE THAN YOURS!!!!" No one, and I mean NO ONE, will argue that Orks don't suck and don't need a big boost. Seriously. If the norm of the game is going to be Eldar, Tau, Necrons and Codex: Space Marines (select chapters), then other codexes should be brought up to that level. Absolutely bring Orks, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, and Tyranids and everything in between up to the level of the big boys. I would love it. Because the game is literally no fun when the big boys can ROFLSTOMP any army but each other.

That being said, all of that doesn't change the fact that Terminators suck and have sucked for several editions. This thread is about fixing THEM. Not fixing Orks or Tyranids.

Loyalist terminators have always sucked.

Martel732 wrote:
Meganobz are better than terminators imo, as they are more resistant to be chipped out by small arms. They are only weaker vs S8+ AP 2 or better, which is actually getting rare. Because high str is usually low ROF, which now sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Seriously, why does every thread like this have to devolve into "MY CODEX SUCKS WORSE THAN YOURS!!!!" No one, and I mean NO ONE, will argue that Orks don't suck and don't need a big boost. Seriously. If the norm of the game is going to be Eldar, Tau, Necrons and Codex: Space Marines (select chapters), then other codexes should be brought up to that level. Absolutely bring Orks, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, and Tyranids and everything in between up to the level of the big boys. I would love it. Because the game is literally no fun when the big boys can ROFLSTOMP any army but each other.

That being said, all of that doesn't change the fact that Terminators suck and have sucked for several editions. This thread is about fixing THEM. Not fixing Orks or Tyranids.

Loyalist terminators have always sucked.

They also have more attacks with power claws and can ride in a standard transport that is an assault vehical...not saying they are good cause they are trash but...better then tactical terms for sure.

Martel732 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I find they do their job, especially in the Zone Mortalis set-up. They deep-strike, Terminate something, and then die on an open field. I think the issue is that people are expecting them to be some sort of super-marine, whereas they're just a specialism.

Uhhhh... They are supposed to be elite marines that can survive through a crap ton of stuff with "tactical dreadnought armor." They're supposed to be like small walking tanks. And they pay the points for it...they just don't have the rules to back it up.

And what on earth are you "terminating" when they drop in before dying? gretchin in the open? We have better suicide units like podded sternguard.

To be in touch with their flavor, they need to be t5 2w at least. That would make them much more likely to see a combat and actually get to use their fists, increasing their typical damage output in a game significantly.

To be fair, marines should not have any suicide squads at all.

"The Emperor's favoured sons, who carry the blood of the primarchs in your veins, you should totes use suicide squads composed of veterans to destroy a single important enemy before the rest of their army kills them horribly. That is definitly a good use of a chapter's limited marines and a good investment after the decades of training it takes to reach veteran status."
Roboute Guilliman while drunk (or possibly Alpharius, also drunk)

I am not sure how to make terminators into the ultimate killing machines they are supposed to be without giving them an extra wound so they can survive more, bumping their invulnerable save to 4++, or just giving them 2x special weapons per 5 man squad.

Roboute Guilliman while drunk (or possibly Alpharius, also drunk)

Have an exalt!

Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Wouldn't increasing their offense make them priority targets, thus necessitating them having better defense.

Although this isn't meant to be a discussion about other armies, I'd like to mention how my terminators got absolutely destroyed by some Meganobz the other day, due to some unlucky roles. This just proves that they need to be buffed- even for a small increase in points. Perhaps like the thunderwolf cavalry without the extra movement, and being toned down a bit.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

I disagree. give em bigger guns and they're just centurions. Terminators should be more durable then Centurions, at the expense of weaponry. give termies some additional durability, a formation that gives them OS and they've got a place

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Wouldn't increasing their offense make them priority targets, thus necessitating them having better defense.

No, because there's much less to target them with. The best defense is a good offense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

I disagree. give em bigger guns and they're just centurions. Terminators should be more durable then Centurions, at the expense of weaponry. give termies some additional durability, a formation that gives them OS and they've got a place

Then they'll continue to be paper weights no one cares about. Their core concept fails in 7th. Actually, it always has, but the diminishing utility of storm bolters just underscores this.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Wouldn't increasing their offense make them priority targets, thus necessitating them having better defense.

No, because there's much less to target them with. The best defense is a good offense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

I disagree. give em bigger guns and they're just centurions. Terminators should be more durable then Centurions, at the expense of weaponry. give termies some additional durability, a formation that gives them OS and they've got a place

Then they'll continue to be paper weights no one cares about. Their core concept fails in 7th. Actually, it always has, but the diminishing utility of storm bolters just underscores this.

Having better defense actually does increase their offense. Instead of shooting some piddly bolter shots and dying, they would stand a better chance of living to the following assault phase where they have power fists, an easily forgettable piece of wargear considering they previously never made it to melee. Even if they did die, taking away a much larger chunk of enemy firepower than before is an improvement for the overall army.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't increase their defense, increase their offense so they don't take as much incoming fire.

Wouldn't increasing their offense make them priority targets, thus necessitating them having better defense.

No, because there's much less to target them with. The best defense is a good offense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You can have your two wound terminators for free when my meganobz get invluns, deep strike, ATSKNF, trade slow and purposeful for relentless, and also get ranged weapons that don't suck, for free.

Terminators ranged weapons suck. I don't think 2W is the way to go for terminators. Bigger guns is.

I disagree. give em bigger guns and they're just centurions. Terminators should be more durable then Centurions, at the expense of weaponry. give termies some additional durability, a formation that gives them OS and they've got a place

Then they'll continue to be paper weights no one cares about. Their core concept fails in 7th. Actually, it always has, but the diminishing utility of storm bolters just underscores this.

Power fist are excellent offense. Defense allows them to use it.

Maybe. But better shooting synergizes much better with their deep striking ability. Land Raiders are worse than useless garbage units, and they don't have any other delivery systems.

The whole "beam down and then stand around like idiots for a turn" ruins their assault capability.

There also the issue of game turns. I often need something to happen NOW, not a turn later. You are already reserving them, so they do nothing turn 1. Then they beam down turn 2 AT BEST and do nothing again. That's 1/3 of the game they are doing nothing at all.

sounds to me Martel like your definition of a crap unit is "Can I point at a enemy unit and erase them in one turn" that kinda mentality is what's horriably wrong with 40k today. I'd rather GW not continue to give us more units like that, hell I'd rather see them REDUCE it (I'd be all for them reducing AP of all ranged AP4 and lower weapons by 1 make armor saves useful again)

I see it this way, Terminators should be about DURABILITY, with Centurions being about FIREPOWER. you use Cents when you wanna kill something fast. termies are what you park in area you need to take insane firepower.