I know that ITC explicitly bans a captain from a battle company to be upgraded to a chapter master but does that imply that a strike force command squad captain can be upgraded to a chapter master?

I feel that RAW they can for sure. With or without the upgrade the unit composition is 'captain' and that fulfills the formation.

I know this is probably a rehash but I wanted peoples feelings on this as I just played in a tournament where someone went 5-0 with a chapter master derived from a battle demi company.

The ITC uses a houserule. RAW you can upgrade the unit Captain to contain the Chaptermaster model in both cases.

The Datasheet entry fdor a chaptermaster is "captain", so he can be upgraded as such.

ITC use a houserule. Again

Gets a little weird with the new FAQ; it is not a "unit of captain" so it is the model only.

And grimuldus as a chaplain cannot bring his servitors.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Gets a little weird with the new FAQ; it is not a "unit of captain" so it is the model only.

And grimuldus as a chaplain cannot bring his servitors.

I would argue that Chaptermaster is just an upgrade to the Captain model the same as adding Artificer Armor or a Power Weapon.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Gets a little weird with the new FAQ; it is not a "unit of captain" so it is the model only.

And grimuldus as a chaplain cannot bring his servitors.

I would argue that Chaptermaster is just an upgrade to the Captain model the same as adding Artificer Armor or a Power Weapon.

Except it changes the model from one identity to another. Hence the confusion.

 Charistoph wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Gets a little weird with the new FAQ; it is not a "unit of captain" so it is the model only.

And grimuldus as a chaplain cannot bring his servitors.

I would argue that Chaptermaster is just an upgrade to the Captain model the same as adding Artificer Armor or a Power Weapon.

Except it changes the model from one identity to another. Hence the confusion.

Confusion or not, there is a plainly written rule that allows the upgrade to be taken and there is no rule preventing it.

Exceedingly clear RAW here folks.

col_impact wrote:
Confusion or not, there is a plainly written rule that allows the upgrade to be taken and there is no rule preventing it.

Exceedingly clear RAW here folks.

And the FAQ Draft references only using that model if it doesn't stated "unit". A Captain unit may contain a Captain model or a Chapter Master model.

But the change of identity is important since it is more significant than a Wargear change, since the Profile changes, and sometimes Wargear and Wargear options as well (such as Orbital Strike).

nekooni wrote:
The ITC uses a houserule. RAW you can upgrade the unit Captain to contain the Chaptermaster model in both cases.

According to the faq it's not an ITC house rule. You are explicitly not allowed to upgrade a model into another model. Of course you can house rule whatever you and your friends want to play with into your formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The Datasheet entry fdor a chaptermaster is "captain", so he can be upgraded as such.

ITC use a houserule. Again

The datasheet entry for commander pask is tank commander. And the faq specifically says you can't do that.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Confusion or not, there is a plainly written rule that allows the upgrade to be taken and there is no rule preventing it.

Exceedingly clear RAW here folks.

And the FAQ Draft references only using that model if it doesn't stated "unit". A Captain unit may contain a Captain model or a Chapter Master model.

But the change of identity is important since it is more significant than a Wargear change, since the Profile changes, and sometimes Wargear and Wargear options as well (such as Orbital Strike).

The datasheet allows the upgrade to be taken and the formation lists no restrictions.

Its up to the Formation to actively restrict the permission that has been given. But there are no restrictions.

Nothing to discuss here. Clear RAW.

You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.
So in this instance GW says it is not allowed and your example of chapter master you are claiming it is allowed whereas they both use the same wording regarding upgrading them. That is niether clear nor allowed.

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique character choice, yes or no?

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique HQ choice, yes or no?

Please clarify is he an upgrade? Yes or no?
Is pask an upgrade?
Is a chapter master an upgrade?

gungo wrote:
The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit.

How is this relevant for a Captain? The unit is technically still a "Captain" unit. it's the same unit, just a different model. That's what we've been telling you for ages and STILL you're arguing that there is a change of the unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique HQ choice, yes or no?

Please clarify is he an upgrade? Yes or no?

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:
The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit.

How is this relevant for a Captain? The unit is technically still a "Captain" unit. it's the same unit, just a different model. That's what we've been telling you for ages and STILL you're arguing that there is a change of the unit?

It's exactly the same entry upgrade as pask.
They are both upgrades to the unit and one was clarified as not allowed.

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique HQ choice, yes or no?

Please clarify is he an upgrade? Yes or no?
Is pask an upgrade?
Is a chapter master an upgrade?

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

This doesn't apply to the case of the Chapter Master since the Chapter Master is not a Unique character.

Gungo, you simply need to employ your reading abilities to sort this out. So please just read.

gungo wrote:

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:
The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit.

How is this relevant for a Captain? The unit is technically still a "Captain" unit. it's the same unit, just a different model. That's what we've been telling you for ages and STILL you're arguing that there is a change of the unit?

It's exactly the same entry upgrade as pask.
They are both upgrades to the unit and one was clarified as not allowed.

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:
The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit.

How is this relevant for a Captain? The unit is technically still a "Captain" unit. it's the same unit, just a different model. That's what we've been telling you for ages and STILL you're arguing that there is a change of the unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique HQ choice, yes or no?

Please clarify is he an upgrade? Yes or no?

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.
The battle company specifically calls out a captain, the tank commander specifically calls out a tank commander.

gungo wrote:

nekooni wrote:

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

You still refuse to acknowledge that "Captain" is a unit, that's literally it? I'm out, this is entirely pointless.

gungo wrote:

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

Post the relevant rules. It has been noted that you are having trouble comprehending rules or are misremembering how they apply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:

nekooni wrote:

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

You still refuse to acknowledge that "Captain" is a unit, that's literally it? I'm out, this is entirely pointless.

Of course the 1 Captain model forms a unit in its own right.

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

Post the relevant rules. It has been noted that you are having trouble comprehending rules or are misremembering how they apply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:

nekooni wrote:

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

You still refuse to acknowledge that "Captain" is a unit, that's literally it? I'm out, this is entirely pointless.

Of course the 1 Captain model forms a unit in its own right.

Spoiler:

FORMING A UNIT
The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into ‘units’.

Feel free to look up the formation and detachment sheet yourself. I haven't misremembered a thing as I'm reading it and typing the same time.
You are applying it to one instance while not to the other.
You are claiming an upgraded in a unit entry is allowed for battle company where the same upgrade wording is specifically not allowed.

col_impact, please stop being so combative and derogatory in your posts. It is hurting our (your) side of the debate.

gungo wrote:


Feel free to look up the formation and detachment sheet yourself. I haven't misremembered a thing as I'm reading it and typing the same time.
You are applying it to one instance while not to the other.
You are claiming an upgraded in a unit entry is allowed for battle company where the same upgrade wording is specifically not allowed.

Yup and you are failing at reading it.

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

This does not apply to the Chapter Master. The Chapter Master is not a Unique character.

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:


Feel free to look up the formation and detachment sheet yourself. I haven't misremembered a thing as I'm reading it and typing the same time.
You are applying it to one instance while not to the other.
You are claiming an upgraded in a unit entry is allowed for battle company where the same upgrade wording is specifically not allowed.

Yup and you are failing at reading it.

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

This does not apply to the Chapter Master. The Chapter Master is not a Unique character.

How does that make any difference when the rules for upgrading the unit entry Is exactly the same as chapter master and nothing in the formation or rulebook prevents it other wise? The clarification to that question was abit " upgrading" a unit entry into the pask upgrade which is a special character, but it is exactly the same upgrade wording as a chapter master.

This is you failing at reading the faq.

gungo wrote:

How does that make any difference when the rules for upgrading the unit entry Is exactly the same as chapter master and nothing in the formation or rulebook prevents it other wise? The clarification to that question was abit " upgrading" a unit entry into the pask upgrade which is a special character, but it is exactly the same upgrade wording as a chapter master.

This is you failing at reading the faq.

The FAQ says you cannot upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation.

Is the Chapter Master a Unique character? No.

Does the FAQ apply to the Chapter Master upgrade? No.

col_impact wrote:The datasheet allows the upgrade to be taken and the formation lists no restrictions.

Its up to the Formation to actively restrict the permission that has been given. But there are no restrictions.

Nothing to discuss here. Clear RAW.

I agree its RAW, and if you think there are no restrictions, the formation list itself is the first set of restrictions.

But the the Draft FAQ for Detachments and Formations thinks otherwise:
"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

The Chapter Master is a model in the Captain unit. The Formation does not state "1 unit of Captain", but "1 Captain". According to the Draft FAQ, this means that it is referring to the model and not the unit. And the Chapter Master model is not a Captain model per the datasheet's only profile listing and options set.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The datasheet allows the upgrade to be taken and the formation lists no restrictions.

Its up to the Formation to actively restrict the permission that has been given. But there are no restrictions.

Nothing to discuss here. Clear RAW.

I agree its RAW, and if you think there are no restrictions, the formation list itself is the first set of restrictions.

But the the Draft FAQ for Detachments and Formations thinks otherwise:
"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

The Chapter Master is a model in the Captain unit. The Formation does not state "1 unit of Captain", but "1 Captain". According to the Draft FAQ, this means that it is referring to the model and not the unit. And the Chapter Master model is not a Captain model per the datasheet's only profile listing and options set.

Per the rules, a model must be organized in a unit. So we are talking about a "unit of 1 Captain model" and not a "unit of Captain models". So a unit of a single Captain model has access to its datasheet. On that datasheet it lists.



So you freely purchase the options.

May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no... It's exactly the same wording.
Chapter master is no different. The fact it's a special character is not relevant to it being an upgrade that is not allowed for a formation model

gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no
Chapter master is no different

Is Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply. Just read the rule dude.

col_impact wrote:
Per the rules, a model must be organized in a unit. So we are talking about a "unit of 1 Captain model" and not a "unit of Captain models". So a unit of a single Captain model has access to its datasheet. On that datasheet it lists.

Spoiler:

OPTIONS
• May be upgraded to a Chapter Master…40 pts

So you freely purchase the options.

The fact that models must be organized in a unit is irrelevant to this discussion. Those Formations which list 1 Captain or 1 Canoptek Spyder start as one model units.

But by upgrading the Captain model to a Chapter Master, he becomes a Chapter Master model and ceases to be a Captain model. If the Demi-Company Formation list is specifying "1 Captain" model (as this FAQ Draft suggests), then by upgrading to a Chapter Master, you break the requirements of the Formation list.

Or in other words, the restriction against upgrading it to a different model is the same as including more units in the formation than is allowed.

I don't fully agree with this version of the FAQ, as it ignores many different aspects of Formation construction, but then, there are a lot of stupid things in the FAQ series which are counter to what the rules state literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no
Chapter master is no different

Is Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply. Just read the rule dude.

That is counter to your case if the upgrade is a part of the unit options, though. The unit upgrades one model to another. In every other case of a Formation listing those options, there are completely different units involved.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Per the rules, a model must be organized in a unit. So we are talking about a "unit of 1 Captain model" and not a "unit of Captain models". So a unit of a single Captain model has access to its datasheet. On that datasheet it lists.

Spoiler:

OPTIONS
• May be upgraded to a Chapter Master…40 pts

So you freely purchase the options.

The fact that models must be organized in a unit is irrelevant to this discussion. Those Formations which list 1 Captain or 1 Canoptek Spyder start as one model units.

But by upgrading the Captain model to a Chapter Master, he becomes a Chapter Master model and ceases to be a Captain model. If the Demi-Company Formation list is specifying "1 Captain" model (as this FAQ Draft suggests), then by upgrading to a Chapter Master, you break the requirements of the Formation list.

Or in other words, the restriction against upgrading it to a different model is the same as including more units in the formation than is allowed.

I don't fully agree with this version of the FAQ, as it ignores many different aspects of Formation construction, but then, there are a lot of stupid things in the FAQ series which are counter to what the rules state literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no
Chapter master is no different

Is Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply. Just read the rule dude.

That is counter to your case if the upgrade is a part of the unit options, though. The unit upgrades one model to another. In every other case of a Formation listing those options, there are completely different units involved.

Incorrect. You simply upgrade the model per the permission provided in the rules. Formations are a collection of units with datasheets. That's how you can add whole units (dedicated transports) that aren't listed on the Formation. That is also how you can add apothecaries to squads, etc.



A Chapter Master is always an upgraded Captain. You cannot purchase a Chapter Master directly except as an upgrade to a Captain so it will not break the Formation list. It's equivalent to purchasing a bike for the Captain (having a bike requires a new model and unit type)

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Per the rules, a model must be organized in a unit. So we are talking about a "unit of 1 Captain model" and not a "unit of Captain models". So a unit of a single Captain model has access to its datasheet. On that datasheet it lists.

Spoiler:

OPTIONS
• May be upgraded to a Chapter Master…40 pts

So you freely purchase the options.

The fact that models must be organized in a unit is irrelevant to this discussion. Those Formations which list 1 Captain or 1 Canoptek Spyder start as one model units.

But by upgrading the Captain model to a Chapter Master, he becomes a Chapter Master model and ceases to be a Captain model. If the Demi-Company Formation list is specifying "1 Captain" model (as this FAQ Draft suggests), then by upgrading to a Chapter Master, you break the requirements of the Formation list.

Or in other words, the restriction against upgrading it to a different model is the same as including more units in the formation than is allowed.

I don't fully agree with this version of the FAQ, as it ignores many different aspects of Formation construction, but then, there are a lot of stupid things in the FAQ series which are counter to what the rules state literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no
Chapter master is no different

Is Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply. Just read the rule dude.

That is counter to your case if the upgrade is a part of the unit options, though. The unit upgrades one model to another. In every other case of a Formation listing those options, there are completely different units involved.

no I am taking the faq as a clarification and not an errata where it simply disallows special characters. This specific faq was about upgrading a tank commander to pask. The answer was no. They didn't add a new rule they said that upgrading the model to its upgrade option was not allowed it's litterally the same wording as the chapter master upgrade which would also not be allowed because the formation calls for a tank commoner or captain and not thier respective upgrades because it never specified the other upgrade model or the entire unit.

gungo wrote:
no I am taking the faq as a clarification and not an errata where it simply disallows special characters. This specific faq was about upgrading a tank commander to pask. The answer was no. They didn't add a new rule they said that upgrading the model to its upgrade option was not allowed it's litterally the same wording as the chapter master upgrade which would also not be allowed because the formation calls for a tank commoner or captain and not thier respective upgrades because it never specified the other upgrade model or the entire unit.

Is the Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply.

Since your opinion continues to ignore basic logic and language comprehension, we can safely disregard your opinion.

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
no I am taking the faq as a clarification and not an errata where it simply disallows special characters. This specific faq was about upgrading a tank commander to pask. The answer was no. They didn't add a new rule they said that upgrading the model to its upgrade option was not allowed it's litterally the same wording as the chapter master upgrade which would also not be allowed because the formation calls for a tank commoner or captain and not thier respective upgrades because it never specified the other upgrade model or the entire unit.

Is the Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply.

Since your opinion continues to ignore basic logic and language comprehension, we can safely disregard your opinion.

Since you continue to repeat yourself without any rationale thought I guess we can ignore your posts.

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
no I am taking the faq as a clarification and not an errata where it simply disallows special characters. This specific faq was about upgrading a tank commander to pask. The answer was no. They didn't add a new rule they said that upgrading the model to its upgrade option was not allowed it's litterally the same wording as the chapter master upgrade which would also not be allowed because the formation calls for a tank commoner or captain and not thier respective upgrades because it never specified the other upgrade model or the entire unit.

Is the Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply.

Since your opinion continues to ignore basic logic and language comprehension, we can safely disregard your opinion.

Since you continue to repeat yourself without any rationale thought I guess we can ignore your posts.

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique character choice, yes or no?

col_impact wrote:Incorrect. You simply upgrade the model per the permission provided in the rules. Formations are a collection of units with datasheets. That's how you can add whole units (dedicated transports) that aren't listed on the Formation. That is also how you can add apothecaries to squads, etc.

A Chapter Master is always an upgraded Captain. You cannot purchase a Chapter Master directly except as an upgrade to a Captain so it will not break the Formation list. It's equivalent to purchasing a bike for the Captain (having a bike requires a new model and unit type)

And you completely bypassed/ignored/didn't listen to the FAQ Draft quote I provided and the point I was making. Here is the quote again:
"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

In this case, they are saying that by listing a model IS listing a restriction to just that model. In the case provided in the question, the option to add more Spyders is as much an option to upgrade to Chapter Master or to Pask.

Are the Captain model and Chapter Master model the same? No. No more than an Initiate is the same as a Sword Brother or a Tank Commander is Pask (or vice versa). One is an upgrade of another, true. No argument. However, to think that they are the same model is ignoring what the definition provided by the Unit Profiles in the army list entries/datasheets.

As I said, it is stupid and not really RAW since it should be listed in the Restrictions and not in the Formation list, but it IS what they are saying in the Draft.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Just out of curiosity, does the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company Formation list "1 Tank Commander" or "1 unit of Tank Commander"? From the way its worded, it is using the same language as the Canoptek Spyder question.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:Incorrect. You simply upgrade the model per the permission provided in the rules. Formations are a collection of units with datasheets. That's how you can add whole units (dedicated transports) that aren't listed on the Formation. That is also how you can add apothecaries to squads, etc.

A Chapter Master is always an upgraded Captain. You cannot purchase a Chapter Master directly except as an upgrade to a Captain so it will not break the Formation list. It's equivalent to purchasing a bike for the Captain (having a bike requires a new model and unit type)

And you completely bypassed/ignored/didn't listen to the FAQ Draft quote I provided and the point I was making. Here is the quote again:
"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

In this case, they are saying that by listing a model IS listing a restriction to just that model. In the case provided in the question, the option to add more Spyders is as much an option to upgrade to Chapter Master or to Pask.

Are the Captain model and Chapter Master model the same? No. No more than an Initiate is the same as a Sword Brother or a Tank Commander is Pask (or vice versa). One is an upgrade of another, true. No argument. However, to think that they are the same model is ignoring what the definition provided by the Unit Profiles in the army list entries/datasheets.

As I said, it is stupid and not really RAW since it should be listed in the Restrictions and not in the Formation list, but it IS what they are saying in the Draft.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Just out of curiosity, does the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company Formation list "1 Tank Commander" or "1 unit of Tank Commander"? From the way its worded, it is using the same language as the Canoptek Spyder question.

Except you miss entirely that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing. If you think such a rule exists please present this rule to the thread!

So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model. By your argument the Captain on a Bike is illegal since it would break the Formation listing of 1 Captain model.

However, your argument is fundamentally flawed. You assume a restriction on the datasheets of the units in the Formations where none exists. If you feel you can prove otherwise, page and paragraph for your rules reference please.

col_impact wrote:

So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model.

Is there a codex entry for 'Captain on a bike'?

Or is it just a Captain with a bike?

 insaniak wrote:

col_impact wrote:

So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model.

Is there a codex entry for 'Captain on a bike'?

Or is it just a Captain with a bike?

It's special wargear upgrade that requires a change in unit type and model. So a Formation listing and restricted to 1 Captain model could not be including 1 Captain on a bike model. They are as different as a Captain model from the upgraded Captain model in the form of the Chapter Master (who can only be purchased by upgrading from a Captain)

col_impact wrote:

It's special wargear upgrade that requires a change in unit type and model. So a Formation listing and restricted to 1 Captain model could not be including 1 Captain on a bike model.

I suspect that you're taking the word 'type' in that FAQ response to mean something other than what they meant.

They're not talking about the Unit Type. They're talking about that 'type' of model. As in, if the Formation refers specifically to, say, a Hive Tyrant, it doesn't mean that it has to be a Monstrous Creature... just that it has to be a Hive Tyrant.

Same thing here. The formation requires a Captain, so you have to have a Captain. A Captain on a bike is still a Captain. It just has a bike.


The logic that giving him a bike requires a different model and so breaks the formation rules would appliy similarly to giving him any wargear that he doesn't come with as standard.

They are as different as a Captain model from the upgraded Captain model in the form of the Chapter Master (who can only be purchased by upgrading from a Captain)

They're not, though. The Captain on a bike is a Captain... with a bike. He still uses the Captain profile. The Chapter Master does not.


This is (as so often is the case) the problem with GW using the same name for units and for some (but not all) of the models in them. It leaves it up to the players to try to figure out whether any given instance of that name is referring to the unit or specifically to the model.

 insaniak wrote:

col_impact wrote:

It's special wargear upgrade that requires a change in unit type and model. So a Formation listing and restricted to 1 Captain model could not be including 1 Captain on a bike model.

I suspect that you're taking the word 'type' in that FAQ response to mean something other than what they meant.

They're not talking about the Unit Type. They're talking about that 'type' of model. As in, if the Formation refers specifically to, say, a Hive Tyrant, it doesn't mean that it has to be a Monstrous Creature... just that it has to be a Hive Tyrant.

Same thing here. The formation requires a Captain, so you have to have a Captain. A Captain on a bike is still a Captain. It just has a bike.


The logic that giving him a bike requires a different model and so breaks the formation rules would appliy similarly to giving him any wargear that he doesn't come with as standard.

They are as different as a Captain model from the upgraded Captain model in the form of the Chapter Master (who can only be purchased by upgrading from a Captain)

They're not, though. The Captain on a bike is a Captain... with a bike. He still uses the Captain profile. The Chapter Master does not.


This is (as so often is the case) the problem with GW using the same name for units and for some (but not all) of the models in them. It leaves it up to the players to try to figure out whether any given instance of that name is referring to the unit or specifically to the model.

The Captain on a bike is an entirely different model.

The Chapter Master is an upgrade to the Captain model. If you have a Chapter Master then you have must first purchased a Captain.

You miss entirely that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing. If you think such a rule exists please present this rule to the thread!

gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no... It's exactly the same wording.
Chapter master is no different. The fact it's a special character is not relevant to it being an upgrade that is not allowed for a formation model

The chapter master is different because it's not Unique. The only valid objection to upgrading the Captain to a Chapter Master is the following faq:

"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?
A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

To be more clear; assuming the faq regarding Pask means that you cannot upgrade any model to be another model, the Gladius Strike Forces would not be allowed to include Veteran Sergeants, Apothecaries, Company Champions, or any other such upgrade.

The above faq however only applies to models that are specifically referred to in the formation dataslate. Whether or not the formation refers to '1 Captain unit' vs '1 Captain model', is the issue up for debate.

Personally I have no issue with the Captain being upgraded to a Chapter Master regardless of RAW

col_impact wrote:

The Captain on a bike is an entirely different model.

Different from what?

A Captain with a plasma pistol is a different model to a Captain with a bolt pistol.


Where exactly are you drawing the line? How many parts of the model have to be different for it to be considered a different model?

The Chapter Master is an upgrade to the Captain model. If you have a Chapter Master then you have must first purchased a Captain.

Sure. But that doesn't mean that you still have a Captain... just that you purchased one to upgrade to a Chapter Master.

 insaniak wrote:

col_impact wrote:

The Captain on a bike is an entirely different model.

Different from what?

A Captain with a plasma pistol is a different model to a Captain with a bolt pistol.


Where exactly are you drawing the line? How many parts of the model have to be different for it to be considered a different model?

The Chapter Master is an upgrade to the Captain model. If you have a Chapter Master then you have must first purchased a Captain.

Sure. But that doesn't mean that you still have a Captain... just that you purchased one to upgrade to a Chapter Master.

You miss entirely that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing. If you think such a rule exists please present this rule to the thread!

Once you have satisfied the purchase requirements for a Formation you are free to purchase upgrades in the Options section unless you can present a rule that explicitly states otherwise.

I wasn't making an argument about purchase requirements. I was questioning your claim that a captain with a bike is not a captain.

 insaniak wrote:
I wasn't making an argument about purchase requirements. I was questioning your claim that a captain with a bike is not a captain.

My claim, to be precise, was that a Captain model is a different model than a Captain on a bike model.

col_impact wrote:Except you miss entirely that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing. If you think such a rule exists please present this rule to the thread!

Open your ears and pay attention to what I am saying and not just make knee-jerk reactions.

I did not miss that entirely. GW missed that entirely since that is THEIR FAQ answer that is providing it, not mine. It has been pointed out that many of their FAQs have no proper reference in the rulebook/codex and sometimes full on COUNTER what is said in the rulebook/codex. Wake up and pay attention.

I even stated that it ignores their rules and places restrictions in a place that it normally isn't used (Formation Lists are to be calling models by the units it lists, not each one specifically).

col_impact wrote:So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model. By your argument the Captain on a Bike is illegal since it would break the Formation listing of 1 Captain model.

You are confusing the physical with the datasheet. There is no "Bike Captain" model listed on the datasheet, there is "Captain" and "Chapter Master". While a Bike does change the Unit Type, it does not change it to a different model listed in the Profile for Composition. I even presented this concept in this way. If you are confused by this, review Point 5 listed on the Datasheet legend in Codex: Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Payne wrote:
To be more clear; assuming the faq regarding Pask means that you cannot upgrade any model to be another model, the Gladius Strike Forces would not be allowed to include Veteran Sergeants, Apothecaries, Company Champions, or any other such upgrade.

Not really. Those Sergeants are never called specifically in the Formation list like the Captain and Canoptek Spyder are. They are only included due to their unit being called. Since it is the unit being called, the Sergeants are otherwise free to upgrade.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Just out of curiosity, does the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company Formation list "1 Tank Commander" or "1 unit of Tank Commander"? From the way the question is worded, it is using the same language as the Canoptek Spyder question.

col_impact wrote:

My claim, to be precise, was that a Captain model is a different model than a Captain on a bike model.

Indeed. And the counterpoint was that this is irrelevant, since both models use the same profile.

The formation just requires a Captain, not a specific Captain model.

I think it's a difficult question.

The sense of the text obviously implies that Chapter Masters are supposed to go in that slot. Marneus Calgar, Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are options, and you are able to take honor guard.

The problem is that, for the generic options, it doesn't say "chapter master." It says "captain."

RAW, the answer is clearly "no."

But RAI, it seems like the answer should be "yes."'

Ask GW to FAQ it.

 Traditio wrote:
The sense of the text obviously implies that Chapter Masters are supposed to go in that slot. Marneus Calgar, Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are options, and you are able to take honor guard.

If we are talking about the Demi-Company lists that make the Battle Company designation of the Gladius, that would be incorrect. Marneus, Helbrecht, and Pedro are only available as part of the Strike Force Command Choice. Only the Uniques that have Captain in their unit names can swap out the generic Captain option for the Demi-Company.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
The sense of the text obviously implies that Chapter Masters are supposed to go in that slot. Marneus Calgar, Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are options, and you are able to take honor guard.

If we are talking about the Demi-Company lists that make the Battle Company designation of the Gladius, that would be incorrect. Marneus, Helbrecht, and Pedro are only available as part of the Strike Force Command Choice. Only the Uniques that have Captain in their unit names can swap out the generic Captain option for the Demi-Company.

I was talking about the Strike Force Command thing. There's no explicit option to take a generic chapter master.

 insaniak wrote:

col_impact wrote:

So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model.

Is there a codex entry for 'Captain on a bike'?

Or is it just a Captain with a bike?

Why does a codex entry matter?


The composition of the captain unit regardless of upgrades is "captain" which fulfills the battle company.


The ITC indirectly acknowledges that it's RAW possible to get a chapter master from a battle company. That is specifically why they banned it.

 Traditio wrote:
I was talking about the Strike Force Command thing. There's no explicit option to take a generic chapter master.

But not part of the Battle Company requested in part of the OP.

And, yeah, it is listed as 1 Captain there, too (but can be replaced by other Unique Captains like the Demi-Company).

Technically speaking, the Strike Force Command isn't even a Formation, so I don't know how tight it has to be.

 Traditio wrote:
I think it's a difficult question.

The sense of the text obviously implies that Chapter Masters are supposed to go in that slot. Marneus Calgar, Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are options, and you are able to take honor guard.

The problem is that, for the generic options, it doesn't say "chapter master." It says "captain."

RAW, the answer is clearly "no."

But RAI, it seems like the answer should be "yes."'

Ask GW to FAQ it.

RAW the answer is clearly yes....

The title of the unit is captain, the composition of the unit is captain. This isn't a different codex entry.

Charistoph wrote:But not part of the Battle Company requested in part of the OP.

"I know that ITC explicitly bans a captain from a battle company to be upgraded to a chapter master but does that imply that a strike force command squad captain can be upgraded to a chapter master?" <- The OP of this thread.

For this, see p. 112 of the codex. "Strike Force Command."

Technically speaking, the Strike Force Command isn't even a Formation, so I don't know how tight it has to be.

It's a command selection for the gladius strike force.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
I was talking about the Strike Force Command thing. There's no explicit option to take a generic chapter master.

But not part of the Battle Company requested in part of the OP.

And, yeah, it is listed as 1 Captain there, too (but can be replaced by other Unique Captains like the Demi-Company).

Technically speaking, the Strike Force Command isn't even a Formation, so I don't know how tight it has to be.

The verbage is the exact same, why does it being a formation or not matter? What is "tightness"?

Restrictions are restrictions.

 Aijec wrote:
Why does a codex entry matter?


The composition of the captain unit regardless of upgrades is "captain" which fulfills the battle company.


The ITC indirectly acknowledges that it's RAW possible to get a chapter master from a battle company. That is specifically why they banned it.

Incorrect. The composition of the Captain unit changes if the Captain model is upgraded to be a Chapter Master, just like the composition of the unit changes in a Crusader Squad if an Initiate is upgraded to a Sword Brother.

The Chapter Master is an upgrade to the Captain model. If you have a Chapter Master then you have must first purchased a Captain.

Sure. But that doesn't mean that you still have a Captain... just that you purchased one to upgrade to a Chapter Master.

No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

Traditio wrote:

Charistoph wrote:But not part of the Battle Company requested in part of the OP.

"I know that ITC explicitly bans a captain from a battle company to be upgraded to a chapter master but does that imply that a strike force command squad captain can be upgraded to a chapter master?" <- The OP of this thread.

Bah, read it too quickly when I went back to review.

Aijec wrote:The verbage is the exact same, why does it being a formation or not matter? What is "tightness"?

Restrictions are restrictions.

Because a Formation has specific known rule guidelines to follow. A Choice like this... not so much.

 Aijec wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
Why does a codex entry matter?


The composition of the captain unit regardless of upgrades is "captain" which fulfills the battle company.


The ITC indirectly acknowledges that it's RAW possible to get a chapter master from a battle company. That is specifically why they banned it.

Incorrect. The composition of the Captain unit changes if the Captain model is upgraded to be a Chapter Master, just like the composition of the unit changes in a Crusader Squad if an Initiate is upgraded to a Sword Brother.

You are wrong. Look at the codex.

Both entries use the same composition.

Unit Composition

"1 Captain"

And the Unit Profile lists what?

The Options say what?

Aijec wrote:Chapter Masters unit composition is still "Captain" which fulfills the Battle company.

Absolutely not. The intent of saying "captain" is to exclude chapter masters. If you look at the note on the bottom of the page, you won't find Pedro Kantor, Calgar, etc. listed as possible replacements for a captain.

At any rate, it says "Captain." It doesn't say "Chapter Master."

Chapter masters aren't captains.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

The formation doesn't require a captain unit. It requires a captain. P. 112. Read the text. It's clear as day to any unbiased reader.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

I agree. That isn't the case anymore though. In the past Captains and Chapter Masters had their own separate entries. Now it's just a single HQ choice.

The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

 Aijec wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

I agree. That isn't the case anymore though. In the past Captains and Chapter Masters had their own separate entries. Now it's just a single HQ choice.

Actually that IS the case now.

It is one entry of a unit that contains both model profiles. When you upgrade the original composition of 1 Captain model to 1 Chapter Master model, the unit composition of the Captain unit is now 1 Chapter Master.

You seem to be confusing the unit and model concepts here.

Review the datasheet legend.
"5. Unit Profile: This section will show the profiles of any models the unit can include."
"7. Unit Composition: This section shows the number and type of models that form the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken."
"8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost."

If the Chapter Master is not a model option in the Captain unit, why is its model profile showing up in there? Why is the Chapter Master model listed with its own Wargear the Captain cannot access (Orbital Strike)?

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Chapter Masters unit composition is still "Captain" which fulfills the Battle company.

Absolutely not. The intent of saying "captain" is to exclude chapter masters. If you look at the note on the bottom of the page, you won't find Pedro Kantor, Calgar, etc. listed as possible replacements for a captain.

At any rate, it says "Captain." It doesn't say "Chapter Master."

Chapter masters aren't captains.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

The formation doesn't require a captain unit. It requires a captain. P. 112. Read the text. It's clear as day to any unbiased reader.

It's telling you to take the Captain entry from the space marine codex, it even lists the entire page, just like its telling you to take 0-1 unit of dreadnoughts.

Does that mean I have to take multiple dreadnoughts in a single unit because its plural? You have no basis for telling me that I need a specific model for the captain entry. Why wouldn't you argue against me taking a powerfist or a claw? What's the difference in your logic?

The composition of a Chapter Master is captain and until anyone can prove otherwise the topic should be clear as day to anyone viewing this thread;.

ITC agrees with me so much that it needed to add a specific addendum to their FAQ.

col_impact wrote:
The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

Is a chapter master a captain?

Yes or no?

No long answers. I'm looking for a simple one word answer.

col_impact wrote:
The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

True, there is no actual rule for that.

However, some people put a lot of truck in those GW House Rules called FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aijec wrote:
The composition of a Chapter Master is captain and until anyone can prove otherwise the topic should be clear as day to anyone viewing this thread;.

You have that backwards. The model is not composed of the unit, the unit is composed of the model. Chapter Master is only a model now, not a unit, per the datasheet legend.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

True, there is no actual rule for that.

However, some people put a lot of truck in those GW House Rules called FAQs.

The FAQs aren't providing rules in this case though. Only hints to RAI. Technically, I can still RAW add additional Spyders to the 1 Canoptek Spyder in the Canoptek formation. No rule (or FAQ rule) restricts me from doing just that.

Aijec wrote:It's telling you to take the Captain entry from the space marine codex

No, it isn't. It's saying to take a captain.

You're overcomplicating this. In the words of GW, "we have to use a little common sense here."

just like its telling you to take 0-1 unit of dreadnoughts.

It specifically says "0-1 unit of dreadnoughts," etc. It doesn't say 1 unit of captain(s). It says "1 captain."

Again, your'e overcomplicating this. Less verbal gymnastics; more common sense, please.

The composition of a Chapter Master is captain

Is a chapter master a captain?

Yes or no?

One word answer. That's all I'm looking for.

 Traditio wrote:


Is a chapter master a captain?

Yes or no?

One word answer. That's all I'm looking for.

Yes

col_impact wrote:Yes

Lol no.

Try again.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

True, there is no actual rule for that.

However, some people put a lot of truck in those GW House Rules called FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aijec wrote:
The composition of a Chapter Master is captain and until anyone can prove otherwise the topic should be clear as day to anyone viewing this thread;.

You have that backwards. The model is not composed of the unit, the unit is composed of the model. Chapter Master is only a model now, not a unit, per the datasheet legend.

What?

The composition of a Chapter Master Unit is "Captain" and until anyone can prove otherwise the topic should be clear as day to anyone viewing this thread.

The ITC felt it was SO clear that they had to specifically ban that option for battle companies.

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:Yes

Lol no.

Try again.

That's my straight answer. I can't buy a Chapter Master directly. It's always an upgraded Captain.

col_impact wrote:That's my straight answer. I can't buy a Chapter Master directly. It's always an upgraded Captain.

At which point it ceases to be a captain. It's that simple.

RAI is obvious from note 1 on p. 112. Calgar, Kantor and Helbrecht aren't listed.

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:That's my straight answer. I can't buy a Chapter Master directly. It's always an upgraded Captain.

At which point it ceases to be a captain. It's that simple.

RAI is obvious from note 1 on p. 112. Calgar, Kantor and Helbrecht aren't listed.

We are arguing RAW. Show me a rule that says I have not satisfied the Formation listings by purchasing a Captain and then upgrading that Captain per the unrestricted datasheet into a Chapter Master.

Waiting for you to show me a rule. Waiting . . .

If you can't show me a rule that restricts me then I have satisfied everything RAW.

col_impact wrote:We are arguing RAW. Show me a rule that says I have not satisfied the Formation listings by purchasing a Captain and then upgrading that Captain per the unrestricted datasheet into a Chapter Master.

Waiting for you to show me a rule. Waiting . . .

Oh, so this is an exercise in "Lol GW writes bad rules and if we try hard enough, and if we engage in sufficient grammatical pedantry and verbal gymnastics, we can produce ridiculous results"?

Ok.

I'm not particularly interested in that conversation.

The answer to the actually interesting question, "Given the rules under the most obvious and straightforward reading of them, can I take a chapter master for this selection," the answer is an obvious "no." Again. Note 1. P. 112.

Chapter masters aren't captains.

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:We are arguing RAW. Show me a rule that says I have not satisfied the Formation listings by purchasing a Captain and then upgrading that Captain per the unrestricted datasheet into a Chapter Master.

Waiting for you to show me a rule. Waiting . . .

Oh, so this is an exercise in "Lol GW writes bad rules and if we try hard enough, and if we engage in sufficient grammatical pedantry and verbal gymnastics, we can produce ridiculous results"?

Ok.

I'm not particularly interested in that conversation.

The answer to the actually interesting question, "Given the rules under the most obvious and straightforward reading of them, can I take a chapter master for this selection," the answer is an obvious "no." Again. Note 1. P. 112.

Chapter masters aren't captains.

Feel free to mark your contributions as HYWPI. I am more interested in how the actual rules themselves work since that is how my play group plays the rules. We play RAW.

Let me use your logic for a moment.

Battle Companies tell me to take tactical squads with a unit composition of 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant.

Are you telling me that I can't upgrade the sergeant to a Vet?

Because by your logic if I stray from the original composition it is no longer a tactical squad.

Where does this stop? What is the difference between these two scenarios?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:We are arguing RAW. Show me a rule that says I have not satisfied the Formation listings by purchasing a Captain and then upgrading that Captain per the unrestricted datasheet into a Chapter Master.

Waiting for you to show me a rule. Waiting . . .

Oh, so this is an exercise in "Lol GW writes bad rules and if we try hard enough, and if we engage in sufficient grammatical pedantry and verbal gymnastics, we can produce ridiculous results"?

Ok.

I'm not particularly interested in that conversation.

The answer to the actually interesting question, "Given the rules under the most obvious and straightforward reading of them, can I take a chapter master for this selection," the answer is an obvious "no." Again. Note 1. P. 112.

Chapter masters aren't captains.

Why is taking a chapter master a ridiculous result lol?

Aijec wrote:Battle Companies tell me to take tactical squads with a unit composition of 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant.

No, they don't. They tell you to take 6 tactical squads. The minimum unit composition for those squads are 4 space marines and a space marine sergeant. You subsequently may upgrade a space marine sergeant to a veteran sergeant, you may add more tactical marines, etc.

Because by your logic if I stray from the original composition it is no longer a tactical squad.

I've said nothing of the sort.

What I've said is that a chapter master isn't a captain.

This should be patently obvious to anyone who isn't trying to find a loophole.

 Traditio wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

The formation doesn't require a captain unit. It requires a captain. P. 112. Read the text. It's clear as day to any unbiased reader.

Traditio, I know this might seem strange, but we're in agreeance here. I'm not saying you can take a Chapter Master, I'm saying the exact opposite.

Aijec wrote:Why is taking a chapter master a ridiculous result lol?

Because a chapter master isn't a captain.

It's that simple.

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Battle Companies tell me to take tactical squads with a unit composition of 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant.

No, they don't. They tell you to take 6 tactical squads. The minimum unit composition for those squads are 4 space marines and a space marine sergeant. You subsequently may upgrade a space marine sergeant to a veteran sergeant, you may add more tactical marines, etc.

Because by your logic if I stray from the original composition it is no longer a tactical squad.

I've said nothing of the sort.

What I've said is that a chapter master isn't a captain.

This should be patently obvious to anyone who isn't trying to find a loophole.

No loophole. I am just purchasing Captains and buying Formations and purchasing upgrades on the datasheets because no rule restricts me from making those purchases!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Why is taking a chapter master a ridiculous result lol?

Because a chapter master isn't a captain.

It's that simple.

A Chapter Master is an upgraded Captain. It's that simple. Just look at the datasheet!

col_impact wrote:No loophole. I am just purchasing Captains and buying Formations and purchasing upgrades on the datasheets because no rule restricts me from making those purchases!

It doesn't say "captain unit." It says "captain."

I repeat:

Chapter masters are not captains.

Again, see note 1 on p. 112. It's perfectly obvious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:A Chapter Master is an upgraded Captain. It's that simple. Just look at the datasheet!

In virtue of that upgrade, it ceases to be a captain.

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Battle Companies tell me to take tactical squads with a unit composition of 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant.

No, they don't. They tell you to take 6 tactical squads. The minimum unit composition for those squads are 4 space marines and a space marine sergeant. You subsequently may upgrade a space marine sergeant to a veteran sergeant, you may add more tactical marines, etc.

Because by your logic if I stray from the original composition it is no longer a tactical squad.

I've said nothing of the sort.

What I've said is that a chapter master isn't a captain.

This should be patently obvious to anyone who isn't trying to find a loophole.

What are you talking about 6 tactical squads? When did I say anything different? Battle Demi Companies require 3 btw. Battle Companies don't exist as a formation.

If I've taken the upgrade to Chapter Master which is the same as me upgrading a srgnt to a vet why does it change the unit composition in one and not the other?

Why does it change the title of the entire unit in one and not the other?

Where are these rules?

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:No loophole. I am just purchasing Captains and buying Formations and purchasing upgrades on the datasheets because no rule restricts me from making those purchases!

It doesn't say "captain unit." It says "captain."

I repeat:

Chapter masters are not captains.

Again, see note 1 on p. 112. It's perfectly obvious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:A Chapter Master is an upgraded Captain. It's that simple. Just look at the datasheet!

In virtue of that upgrade, it ceases to be a captain.

Who cares? At that point I have purchased the Formation, unless you show me rules that restrict datasheets based on Formation listings!

You need to start referencing some rules here buddy. As it is, I can purchase the Formation and purchase the upgrades that I am permitted.

Hey col, just because there's no rule, doesn't mean it's allowed.
Maybe read the GW FaQ everyone keeps telling you about?

A Chapter Master is an upgrade to a Captain Unit that replaces the Captain Model that makes up its unit composition. The FaQ clearly states when '1 [Blank]' is used, it refers to a specific model and not a specific unit. A Chapter Master is not a Captain model.

Aijec wrote:What are you talking about 6 tactical squads? When did I say anything different? Battle Demi Companies require 3 btw. Battle Companies don't exist as a formation.

This. This is the kind of pedantry I'm talking about.

The FAQs strongly imply that you should stop that.

If I've taken the upgrade to Chapter Master which is the same as me upgrading a srgnt to a vet why does it change the unit composition in one and not the other?

Who gives a flying feth about "unit composition"? The strike force command selection doesn't offer the option to take a "captain unit." It says "A captain."

Let me say this for all of you for the billionth time. Read carefully.

A chapter master is not a captain.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Hey col, just because there's no rule, doesn't mean it's allowed.
Maybe read the GW FaQ everyone keeps telling you about?

A Chapter Master is an upgrade to a Captain Unit that replaces the Captain Model that makes up its unit composition. The FaQ clearly states when '1 [Blank]' is used, it refers to a specific model and not a specific unit. A Chapter Master is not a Captain model.

The datasheet provides the permission so unless there is a rule restricting me I can most assuredly purchase the Chapter Master upgrade unless you can show me a rule that says otherwise! Them's the rules.

I want to reiterate my point.

When you buy either of these options you use a Captain datasheet. That alone makes it legal to fulfill battle company or whatever else.

The model itself will be either a captain or chapter master just as the srgnt will be a vet or just a basic srgnt but overall the datasheet used will be the same.

You don't use models to fulfill requirements you use datasheets.

 Aijec wrote:
I want to reiterate my point.

When you buy either of these options you use a Captain datasheet. That alone makes it legal to fulfill battle company or whatever else.

The model itself will be either a captain or chapter master just as the srgnt will be a vet or just a basic srgnt but overall the datasheet used will be the same.

You don't use models to fulfill requirements you use datasheets.

You should put a poll on this thread asking for public opinion on the matter.

Right after you ask GW to FAQ it.

See col, this is why I ignored you ages ago. Apparently FaQs don;t count and breaking the game and making your own rules is fine. Seriously you have an FaQ telling you that it can't be done and yet you still want to go round in circles ignoring it because... reasons.


Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:What are you talking about 6 tactical squads? When did I say anything different? Battle Demi Companies require 3 btw. Battle Companies don't exist as a formation.

This. This is the kind of pedantry I'm talking about.

The FAQs strongly imply that you should stop that.

If I've taken the upgrade to Chapter Master which is the same as me upgrading a srgnt to a vet why does it change the unit composition in one and not the other?

Who gives a flying feth about "unit composition"? The strike force command selection doesn't offer the option to take a "captain unit." It says "A captain."

Let me say this for all of you for the billionth time. Read carefully.

A chapter master is not a captain.

So you're suggesting that unlike every other requirement in the battle company that requires we use datasheets the captain requirement asks that we use a specific captain model?

What happens when I give him a bike? His composition changes by your logic. His statline changes. His unit type changes and no longer can you just call him a Captain.

Aijec wrote:So you're suggesting that unlike every other requirement in the battle company that requires we use datasheets the captain requirement asks that we use a specific captain model?

What happens when I give him a bike? His composition changes by your logic. His statline changes. His unit type changes and no longer can you just call him a Captain.

No. He doesn't change qua captain. He remains a captain...on a bike. You'll likely refer to him as your "bike captain."

Less pedantry.

More common sense.

Thanks in advance.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
See col, this is why I ignored you ages ago. Apparently FaQs don;t count and breaking the game and making your own rules is fine. Seriously you have an FaQ telling you that it can't be done and yet you still want to go round in circles ignoring it because... reasons.


Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

"As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit."


That is exactly my point. You are arguing with me using my exact logic.

 Aijec wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

"As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit."


That is exactly my point. You are arguing with me using my exact logic.

The bolded section is the reason why your logic is wrong in the case of the Captain/Chapter Master. The entry refers to the model specifically, not the unit.

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:So you're suggesting that unlike every other requirement in the battle company that requires we use datasheets the captain requirement asks that we use a specific captain model?

What happens when I give him a bike? His composition changes by your logic. His statline changes. His unit type changes and no longer can you just call him a Captain.

No. He doesn't change qua captain. He remains a captain...on a bike. You'll likely refer to him as your "bike captain."

Less pedantry.

More common sense.

Thanks in advance.

Please help to develop my common sense. I am begging you to tell me why you can take a bike upgrade when it changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name but not take a chapter master upgrade that changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name.

The bike doesn't change the unit composition or model though, it's still a Captain model.

The Chapter Master upgrade replaces the Captain model with a Chapter Master model, and therefore means you no longer have a Captain model as required.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Aijec wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

"As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit."


That is exactly my point. You are arguing with me using my exact logic.

The bolded section is the reason why your logic is wrong in the case of the Captain/Chapter Master. The entry refers to the model specifically, not the unit.

Where does it say that?
Why would they make that distinction without explicitly saying that?
Why are we assuming that's the case?


Please tell me why you would allow someone to take a bike captain to fulfill that same requirement when both a bike and a chapter master are upgrades?


I am quoting the book directly and each and every turn of the page points us in the direction of upgrading the captain in whatever way we want for our battle company. YOU are the one trying to pick out things in between the lines and create logic that disallows something even when said logic doesn't work uniformly with other upgrade options.

This is officially ridiculous.

Aijec wrote:Please help to develop my common sense. I am begging you to tell me why you can take a bike upgrade when it changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name but not take a chapter master upgrade that changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name.

Is a captain on a bike a captain? [Hint, the notion of the predicate is contained in the notion of the subject.]

Is a chapter master a captain? [Hint, look at the note on p. 112 that you people seem to insist on ignoring.]

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The bike doesn't change the unit composition or model though, it's still a Captain model.

The Chapter Master upgrade replaces the Captain model with a Chapter Master model, and therefore means you no longer have a Captain model as required.

What are you talking about? Obviously a captain on a bike physically replaces a normal captain. What else could you be referring to?

It DOES change the unit composition. Take a look at the difference between normal space marines and space marine bikers. The difference is written in plain english


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Please help to develop my common sense. I am begging you to tell me why you can take a bike upgrade when it changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name but not take a chapter master upgrade that changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name.

Is a captain on a bike a captain? [Hint, the notion of the predicate is contained in the notion of the subject.]

Is a chapter master a captain? [Hint, look at the note on p. 112 that you people seem to insist on ignoring.]

The formation SPECIFICALLY asks for a captain model! Careful my friend you are going back on your logic here.

A captain on a bike does NOT specifically fulfill the requirement of "Captain".

His name has changed, his composition has changed, his unit type has changed and his stat line has changed. Exactly the same scenario as our beloved Chapter Master.

Aijec wrote:The formation SPECIFICALLY asks for a captain model! Careful my friend you are going back on your logic here.

A captain on a bike does NOT specifically fulfill the requirement of "Captain".

A captain on a bike isn't a captain?

Amazing.

His name has changed, his composition has changed, his unit type has changed and his stat line has changed. Exactly the same scenario as our beloved Chapter Master.

You don't see the difference between a CAPTAIN on a bike and a chapter master.

I believe our conversation is done.

At any rate, your complete failure to comment on note 1, p. 112 speaks volumes.

Just so you know, I wouldn't play 40k with you if you and I were the last 40k players alive.

The FAQ in question can be found HERE.

A Captain on a Bike is still a Captain model.
The model has the same name, just different wargear. There is no 'Bike Captain' or 'Captain on a bike' model, there is a Captain model that has a bike as wargear.

His name is the exact same. His unit composition is the exact same. The difference is his wargear and consequently his unit type and statline because it modifies them, but he is still a Captain model.

The Chapter Master upgrade changes the model entirely. It is no longer a Captain model, but now a Chapter Master model.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
See col, this is why I ignored you ages ago. Apparently FaQs don;t count and breaking the game and making your own rules is fine. Seriously you have an FaQ telling you that it can't be done and yet you still want to go round in circles ignoring it because... reasons.


Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

What model is "0-1 Honour Guard"? The unit "Honour Guard" consists of Honour Guard and Chapter Champion models. According to you, it's just that single model of one lone Honour Guard, is that correct?

The "unit of" is only ever used for vehicles in Codex:Space Marines. Reading anything that does not have "unit of" as "model" simply doesn't work and it doesn't fit with how Codex:Space Marines is written at all.

Pask is a unique character, and the question basically was "can I swap generic dude for a named, unique model even though that itsn't listed as an option" and the answer to that is "No". Apothecaries, Chapter Masters, Veteran Sergeants and the like are not unique, named characters, so the FAQ entries doesn' t rule that one.

That being said with how often this question comes up here I expect GW to answer this specific question in the C:SM FAQ. Why not calm down, have a tea and wait for that? Then we'll see what their actual intention with Chapter Masters is.

"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

I'm not using the Pask FaQ entry, I'm using that one.

However now that you mention it... I had forgotten the SM codex had it laid out like that. So the entry could be referring to the Captain unit or the Captain model, it's unclear. Both interpretations (at this moment) are technically correct. Really there is no single clear answer.

Apologies everyone.

Hopefully the SM FaQ clears this up, as you said.

nekooni wrote:What model is "0-1 Honour Guard"? The unit "Honour Guard" consists of Honour Guard and Chapter Champion models. According to you, it's just that single model of one lone Honour Guard, is that correct?

No. "Honour Guard" obviously is referring to the unit, not the model. You can't find a single honour guard model on the table. Again, the meaning of "1 captain" and "0-1 honor guard," and how those meanings differ, should be obvious to anyone but the most trifling of pedants.

That being said with how often this question comes up here I expect GW to answer this specific question in the C:SM FAQ. Why not calm down, have a tea and wait for that? Then we'll see what their actual intention with Chapter Masters is.

Again, I wish to note the fact that NOBODY has addressed note 1 on p. 112.

Why?

Because it makes GW's intentions perfectly clear.

But just wait until the FAQ. I will be vindicated. Again.

My codex just says "Captain". It doesn't specify unit or model. There are both. It does reference a page number in my book to both a unit entry and a model. I don't know anyone who plays it RAW that you can't upgrade unless they are specially playing ITC. Although, I will say that the case of the uniques all being just Captains does have a strong implication the leaning of GW. I wish they just answered the question Yes or No outright.

Omg will you ever let that go Traditio? You even mentioned yourself that the FaQs also disagreed with some your interpretations. You won't be vindicated at all, GW will just say what they now intend it to be (even if what they now intend whatever to be isn't RaW at all for an entry that is clear).

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:The formation SPECIFICALLY asks for a captain model! Careful my friend you are going back on your logic here.

A captain on a bike does NOT specifically fulfill the requirement of "Captain".

A captain on a bike isn't a captain?

Amazing.

His name has changed, his composition has changed, his unit type has changed and his stat line has changed. Exactly the same scenario as our beloved Chapter Master.

You don't see the difference between a CAPTAIN on a bike and a chapter master.

I believe our conversation is done.

At any rate, your complete failure to comment on note 1, p. 112 speaks volumes.

Just so you know, I wouldn't play 40k with you if you and I were the last 40k players alive.

I do see the difference between the two models. There's no need to be petty and insulting, I'm simply here to prove my point before any viewer. Obviously your intentions are different.

What you refuse to see is how they are purchased and upgraded using the exact same datasheet which the formation tells us to use.

Nobody has adressed your quoted page because you haven't given us a book to reference lol. I've checked the BRB , small rulebook angels of death and the SM codex and nothing you've listed has any relevance lol.

My points:

1. Datasheets fulfill requirements, the SM book tells us to use the datasheets in this book to fulfill it's formations requirements. Naysayers are suggesting that the captain requirement ALONE breaks this rule and support it with absolutely no written material.

2.It also tells us that "EACH SPACE MARINES UNIT IN THIS BOOK HAS A DATASHEET"

3. BIke upgrades as an example alter the exact same things the chapter master upgrade does. Statline, composition, name, unit type and yet they are fine by the naysayers logic.

4. I understand that ITC isn't everything but in closing think about this:

They explicitly disallow us to from taking Chapter Masters to fulfill the Captain requirement. This doesn't necessarily mean that they feel the book allows us to take one. Maybe it's just a clarification?

But in regards to the strike force command which uses the EXACT same language they chose to leave it alone without ANY clarification.

Now whether you agree to care about ITC rulings I leave that to you. But you have to respect that their two individual rulings CLEARLY suggest that given this specific wording you can take a chapter master to fulfill a captain requirement.

So this means that GW meant to make it impossible to include a non-unique Chapter Master in any of their formations? All I see is "Captain" or "Terminator Captain".

Median Trace wrote:
My codex just says "Captain". It doesn't specify unit or model. There are both. It does reference a page number in my book to both a unit entry and a model. I don't know anyone who plays it RAW that you can't upgrade unless they are specially playing ITC. Although, I will say that the case of the uniques all being just Captains does have a strong implication the leaning of GW. I wish they just answered the question Yes or No outright.

The strike force command uses the exact same language and the uniques you can take in replace of the captain are chapter masters.

Aijec wrote:Nobody has adressed your quoted page because you haven't given us a book to reference lol. I've checked the BRB , small rulebook angels of death and the SM codex and nothing you've listed has any relevance lol.

Vanilla marines codex. 7th edition. P. 112. Note 1 on the bottom right corner of the page:

"May take Captain Sicarius, Kor'sarro Khan, Vulkhan He'stan, Shadow Captain Shrike or Captain Lysander instead of a captain."

Strange. No mention of Pedro Kantor, Marneus Calgar or High Marshall Helbrecht.

Very, very strange indeed, if, as you people insist, chapter master = captain.

At any rate, as I said, this conversation is over, and I offer this comment, not so much for you, but for the other readers of this thread.

This is may going around in circles by this point I don't think there is anything useful to be gained by continuing here