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I want to reiterate my point.

When you buy either of these options you use a Captain datasheet. That alone makes it legal to fulfill battle company or whatever else.

The model itself will be either a captain or chapter master just as the srgnt will be a vet or just a basic srgnt but overall the datasheet used will be the same.

You don't use models to fulfill requirements you use datasheets.

 Aijec wrote:
I want to reiterate my point.

When you buy either of these options you use a Captain datasheet. That alone makes it legal to fulfill battle company or whatever else.

The model itself will be either a captain or chapter master just as the srgnt will be a vet or just a basic srgnt but overall the datasheet used will be the same.

You don't use models to fulfill requirements you use datasheets.

You should put a poll on this thread asking for public opinion on the matter.

Right after you ask GW to FAQ it.

See col, this is why I ignored you ages ago. Apparently FaQs don;t count and breaking the game and making your own rules is fine. Seriously you have an FaQ telling you that it can't be done and yet you still want to go round in circles ignoring it because... reasons.


Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:What are you talking about 6 tactical squads? When did I say anything different? Battle Demi Companies require 3 btw. Battle Companies don't exist as a formation.

This. This is the kind of pedantry I'm talking about.

The FAQs strongly imply that you should stop that.

If I've taken the upgrade to Chapter Master which is the same as me upgrading a srgnt to a vet why does it change the unit composition in one and not the other?

Who gives a flying feth about "unit composition"? The strike force command selection doesn't offer the option to take a "captain unit." It says "A captain."

Let me say this for all of you for the billionth time. Read carefully.

A chapter master is not a captain.

So you're suggesting that unlike every other requirement in the battle company that requires we use datasheets the captain requirement asks that we use a specific captain model?

What happens when I give him a bike? His composition changes by your logic. His statline changes. His unit type changes and no longer can you just call him a Captain.

Aijec wrote:So you're suggesting that unlike every other requirement in the battle company that requires we use datasheets the captain requirement asks that we use a specific captain model?

What happens when I give him a bike? His composition changes by your logic. His statline changes. His unit type changes and no longer can you just call him a Captain.

No. He doesn't change qua captain. He remains a captain...on a bike. You'll likely refer to him as your "bike captain."

Less pedantry.

More common sense.

Thanks in advance.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
See col, this is why I ignored you ages ago. Apparently FaQs don;t count and breaking the game and making your own rules is fine. Seriously you have an FaQ telling you that it can't be done and yet you still want to go round in circles ignoring it because... reasons.


Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

"As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit."


That is exactly my point. You are arguing with me using my exact logic.

 Aijec wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

"As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit."


That is exactly my point. You are arguing with me using my exact logic.

The bolded section is the reason why your logic is wrong in the case of the Captain/Chapter Master. The entry refers to the model specifically, not the unit.

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:So you're suggesting that unlike every other requirement in the battle company that requires we use datasheets the captain requirement asks that we use a specific captain model?

What happens when I give him a bike? His composition changes by your logic. His statline changes. His unit type changes and no longer can you just call him a Captain.

No. He doesn't change qua captain. He remains a captain...on a bike. You'll likely refer to him as your "bike captain."

Less pedantry.

More common sense.

Thanks in advance.

Please help to develop my common sense. I am begging you to tell me why you can take a bike upgrade when it changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name but not take a chapter master upgrade that changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name.

The bike doesn't change the unit composition or model though, it's still a Captain model.

The Chapter Master upgrade replaces the Captain model with a Chapter Master model, and therefore means you no longer have a Captain model as required.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Aijec wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

"As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit."


That is exactly my point. You are arguing with me using my exact logic.

The bolded section is the reason why your logic is wrong in the case of the Captain/Chapter Master. The entry refers to the model specifically, not the unit.

Where does it say that?
Why would they make that distinction without explicitly saying that?
Why are we assuming that's the case?


Please tell me why you would allow someone to take a bike captain to fulfill that same requirement when both a bike and a chapter master are upgrades?


I am quoting the book directly and each and every turn of the page points us in the direction of upgrading the captain in whatever way we want for our battle company. YOU are the one trying to pick out things in between the lines and create logic that disallows something even when said logic doesn't work uniformly with other upgrade options.

This is officially ridiculous.

Aijec wrote:Please help to develop my common sense. I am begging you to tell me why you can take a bike upgrade when it changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name but not take a chapter master upgrade that changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name.

Is a captain on a bike a captain? [Hint, the notion of the predicate is contained in the notion of the subject.]

Is a chapter master a captain? [Hint, look at the note on p. 112 that you people seem to insist on ignoring.]

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The bike doesn't change the unit composition or model though, it's still a Captain model.

The Chapter Master upgrade replaces the Captain model with a Chapter Master model, and therefore means you no longer have a Captain model as required.

What are you talking about? Obviously a captain on a bike physically replaces a normal captain. What else could you be referring to?

It DOES change the unit composition. Take a look at the difference between normal space marines and space marine bikers. The difference is written in plain english


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Please help to develop my common sense. I am begging you to tell me why you can take a bike upgrade when it changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name but not take a chapter master upgrade that changes his composition, stat line, unit type and name.

Is a captain on a bike a captain? [Hint, the notion of the predicate is contained in the notion of the subject.]

Is a chapter master a captain? [Hint, look at the note on p. 112 that you people seem to insist on ignoring.]

The formation SPECIFICALLY asks for a captain model! Careful my friend you are going back on your logic here.

A captain on a bike does NOT specifically fulfill the requirement of "Captain".

His name has changed, his composition has changed, his unit type has changed and his stat line has changed. Exactly the same scenario as our beloved Chapter Master.

Aijec wrote:The formation SPECIFICALLY asks for a captain model! Careful my friend you are going back on your logic here.

A captain on a bike does NOT specifically fulfill the requirement of "Captain".

A captain on a bike isn't a captain?

Amazing.

His name has changed, his composition has changed, his unit type has changed and his stat line has changed. Exactly the same scenario as our beloved Chapter Master.

You don't see the difference between a CAPTAIN on a bike and a chapter master.

I believe our conversation is done.

At any rate, your complete failure to comment on note 1, p. 112 speaks volumes.

Just so you know, I wouldn't play 40k with you if you and I were the last 40k players alive.

The FAQ in question can be found HERE.

A Captain on a Bike is still a Captain model.
The model has the same name, just different wargear. There is no 'Bike Captain' or 'Captain on a bike' model, there is a Captain model that has a bike as wargear.

His name is the exact same. His unit composition is the exact same. The difference is his wargear and consequently his unit type and statline because it modifies them, but he is still a Captain model.

The Chapter Master upgrade changes the model entirely. It is no longer a Captain model, but now a Chapter Master model.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
See col, this is why I ignored you ages ago. Apparently FaQs don;t count and breaking the game and making your own rules is fine. Seriously you have an FaQ telling you that it can't be done and yet you still want to go round in circles ignoring it because... reasons.


Aijec, the thing is the FaQ states that '1 [Blank]' refers to the model specifically, and if you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master it's no longer the specific Captain model.

'1 unit of [Blank]' or '1 [Blank] unit' aren't said to refer to specific model, just to the units in general. As long as the unit has a legal unit composition it's still the same unit.

What model is "0-1 Honour Guard"? The unit "Honour Guard" consists of Honour Guard and Chapter Champion models. According to you, it's just that single model of one lone Honour Guard, is that correct?

The "unit of" is only ever used for vehicles in Codex:Space Marines. Reading anything that does not have "unit of" as "model" simply doesn't work and it doesn't fit with how Codex:Space Marines is written at all.

Pask is a unique character, and the question basically was "can I swap generic dude for a named, unique model even though that itsn't listed as an option" and the answer to that is "No". Apothecaries, Chapter Masters, Veteran Sergeants and the like are not unique, named characters, so the FAQ entries doesn' t rule that one.

That being said with how often this question comes up here I expect GW to answer this specific question in the C:SM FAQ. Why not calm down, have a tea and wait for that? Then we'll see what their actual intention with Chapter Masters is.

"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

I'm not using the Pask FaQ entry, I'm using that one.

However now that you mention it... I had forgotten the SM codex had it laid out like that. So the entry could be referring to the Captain unit or the Captain model, it's unclear. Both interpretations (at this moment) are technically correct. Really there is no single clear answer.

Apologies everyone.

Hopefully the SM FaQ clears this up, as you said.

nekooni wrote:What model is "0-1 Honour Guard"? The unit "Honour Guard" consists of Honour Guard and Chapter Champion models. According to you, it's just that single model of one lone Honour Guard, is that correct?

No. "Honour Guard" obviously is referring to the unit, not the model. You can't find a single honour guard model on the table. Again, the meaning of "1 captain" and "0-1 honor guard," and how those meanings differ, should be obvious to anyone but the most trifling of pedants.

That being said with how often this question comes up here I expect GW to answer this specific question in the C:SM FAQ. Why not calm down, have a tea and wait for that? Then we'll see what their actual intention with Chapter Masters is.

Again, I wish to note the fact that NOBODY has addressed note 1 on p. 112.

Why?

Because it makes GW's intentions perfectly clear.

But just wait until the FAQ. I will be vindicated. Again.

My codex just says "Captain". It doesn't specify unit or model. There are both. It does reference a page number in my book to both a unit entry and a model. I don't know anyone who plays it RAW that you can't upgrade unless they are specially playing ITC. Although, I will say that the case of the uniques all being just Captains does have a strong implication the leaning of GW. I wish they just answered the question Yes or No outright.

Omg will you ever let that go Traditio? You even mentioned yourself that the FaQs also disagreed with some your interpretations. You won't be vindicated at all, GW will just say what they now intend it to be (even if what they now intend whatever to be isn't RaW at all for an entry that is clear).

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:The formation SPECIFICALLY asks for a captain model! Careful my friend you are going back on your logic here.

A captain on a bike does NOT specifically fulfill the requirement of "Captain".

A captain on a bike isn't a captain?

Amazing.

His name has changed, his composition has changed, his unit type has changed and his stat line has changed. Exactly the same scenario as our beloved Chapter Master.

You don't see the difference between a CAPTAIN on a bike and a chapter master.

I believe our conversation is done.

At any rate, your complete failure to comment on note 1, p. 112 speaks volumes.

Just so you know, I wouldn't play 40k with you if you and I were the last 40k players alive.

I do see the difference between the two models. There's no need to be petty and insulting, I'm simply here to prove my point before any viewer. Obviously your intentions are different.

What you refuse to see is how they are purchased and upgraded using the exact same datasheet which the formation tells us to use.

Nobody has adressed your quoted page because you haven't given us a book to reference lol. I've checked the BRB , small rulebook angels of death and the SM codex and nothing you've listed has any relevance lol.

My points:

1. Datasheets fulfill requirements, the SM book tells us to use the datasheets in this book to fulfill it's formations requirements. Naysayers are suggesting that the captain requirement ALONE breaks this rule and support it with absolutely no written material.

2.It also tells us that "EACH SPACE MARINES UNIT IN THIS BOOK HAS A DATASHEET"

3. BIke upgrades as an example alter the exact same things the chapter master upgrade does. Statline, composition, name, unit type and yet they are fine by the naysayers logic.

4. I understand that ITC isn't everything but in closing think about this:

They explicitly disallow us to from taking Chapter Masters to fulfill the Captain requirement. This doesn't necessarily mean that they feel the book allows us to take one. Maybe it's just a clarification?

But in regards to the strike force command which uses the EXACT same language they chose to leave it alone without ANY clarification.

Now whether you agree to care about ITC rulings I leave that to you. But you have to respect that their two individual rulings CLEARLY suggest that given this specific wording you can take a chapter master to fulfill a captain requirement.

So this means that GW meant to make it impossible to include a non-unique Chapter Master in any of their formations? All I see is "Captain" or "Terminator Captain".

Median Trace wrote:
My codex just says "Captain". It doesn't specify unit or model. There are both. It does reference a page number in my book to both a unit entry and a model. I don't know anyone who plays it RAW that you can't upgrade unless they are specially playing ITC. Although, I will say that the case of the uniques all being just Captains does have a strong implication the leaning of GW. I wish they just answered the question Yes or No outright.

The strike force command uses the exact same language and the uniques you can take in replace of the captain are chapter masters.

Aijec wrote:Nobody has adressed your quoted page because you haven't given us a book to reference lol. I've checked the BRB , small rulebook angels of death and the SM codex and nothing you've listed has any relevance lol.

Vanilla marines codex. 7th edition. P. 112. Note 1 on the bottom right corner of the page:

"May take Captain Sicarius, Kor'sarro Khan, Vulkhan He'stan, Shadow Captain Shrike or Captain Lysander instead of a captain."

Strange. No mention of Pedro Kantor, Marneus Calgar or High Marshall Helbrecht.

Very, very strange indeed, if, as you people insist, chapter master = captain.

At any rate, as I said, this conversation is over, and I offer this comment, not so much for you, but for the other readers of this thread.

This is may going around in circles by this point I don't think there is anything useful to be gained by continuing here