Who can use the new Space Marine psychic powers? I was at a tournament and a Space Wolf player was allowed to use them, can grey knights use them also?
Can you give some support for this, Tactical_Spam.
My GK codex does not give permission for any of my characters to generate on the new trees, and there's no GKFAQ that I'm aware of that modifies my codex.
Tactical_Spam wrote: Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Codex: Space Marines can use the new, marine-specific psychic powers
Actually there's conflicting information on who can use the new psychic powers from Angels of Death. The book says 'Any Psyker of the Space Marine Faction...' which would preclude Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels. However the quick reference chart on the Adeptus Astartes psychic power cards allows them to take those powers.
Until clarified, its best to discuss with your opponent or check with the tournament organizers if in doubt.
Yeah, currently GK, BA, DA & SW have access to the new lores as faction, but RaW they have no models that are allowed to generate powers off them.
Hopefully this will get FaQed (since GW is now doing that again it seems), but most people house rule (and the tournament probably did, too) that Librarians (or Rune Priests in the case of the puppies) are able to generate from them.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, currently GK, BA, DA & SW have access to the new lores as faction, but RaW they have no models that are allowed to generate powers off them.
Hopefully this will get FaQed (since GW is now doing that again it seems), but most people house rule (and the tournament probably did, too) that Librarians (or Rune Priests in the case of the puppies) are able to generate from them.
From Codex: Angels of Death "Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the [insert new disciplines], in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."
I forget where but somewhere it says that a Space Marine factions include Vanilla, BA, DA, SW and GK
Edit: actually I think I'm wrong on this one. Regardless the datacard is GW produced and so I think we can treat it as RAW anyway. Shouldn't need more proof
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, currently GK, BA, DA & SW have access to the new lores as faction, but RaW they have no models that are allowed to generate powers off them.
Hopefully this will get FaQed (since GW is now doing that again it seems), but most people house rule (and the tournament probably did, too) that Librarians (or Rune Priests in the case of the puppies) are able to generate from them.
From Codex: Angels of Death "Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the [insert new disciplines], in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."
I forget where but somewhere it says that a Space Marine factions include Vanilla, BA, DA, SW and GK
Edit: actually I think I'm wrong on this one. Regardless the datacard is GW produced and so I think we can treat it as RAW anyway. Shouldn't need more proof
The closest thing to what you mention is the designer note in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, which is specific to that codex only.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, currently GK, BA, DA & SW have access to the new lores as faction, but RaW they have no models that are allowed to generate powers off them.
Hopefully this will get FaQed (since GW is now doing that again it seems), but most people house rule (and the tournament probably did, too) that Librarians (or Rune Priests in the case of the puppies) are able to generate from them.
From Codex: Angels of Death "Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the [insert new disciplines], in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."
I forget where but somewhere it says that a Space Marine factions include Vanilla, BA, DA, SW and GK
Edit: actually I think I'm wrong on this one. Regardless the datacard is GW produced and so I think we can treat it as RAW anyway. Shouldn't need more proof
Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.
nekooni wrote: Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.
Wait like which..? All listed factions have Psykers no? I think it would be fairly ridiculous for anyone to argue against you using the new disciplines on the grounds that whilst your faction can use it none of your units can...
nekooni wrote: Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.
Wait like which..? All listed factions have Psykers no? I think it would be fairly ridiculous for anyone to argue against you using the new disciplines on the grounds that whilst your faction can use it none of your units can...
There are no rules supporting or defining access for special marine faction units to the new disciplines.
Without rules providing permission, it is quite ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost and expect opponents to be fine with that.
Stephanius wrote: There are no rules supporting or defining access for special marine faction units to the new disciplines.
Without rules providing permission, it is quite ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost and expect opponents to be fine with that.
There are very specific rules defining who has access to the powers in a space marine faction actually. "Any Pskyer with the Space Marine faction". So it is not at all "ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost". They do have access.
Brother Payne wrote: There are very specific rules defining who has access to the powers in a space marine faction actually. "Any Pskyer with the Space Marine faction". So it is not at all "ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost". They do have access.
What he's saying is that for the Space Marines Faction we have the following:
"Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from [the new disciplines]..."
But for Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc. we do not.
Rather we have the Datacards stating those Factions have access to the new disciplines, but without detailing which units may use them.
Because "the Space Marines Faction" doesn't include Blood Angels etc.
As a reasonable person, personally? Sure I'd extend the powers to "any Psyker with any Factions listed on the Datacards" to generate their powers. But as RAW? It says nothing about whether it's all or which Psykers from those Factions.
Brother Payne wrote: There are very specific rules defining who has access to the powers in a space marine faction actually. "Any Pskyer with the Space Marine faction". So it is not at all "ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost". They do have access.
What he's saying is that for the Space Marines Faction we have the following:
"Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from [the new disciplines]..."
But for Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc. we do not.
Rather we have the Datacards stating those Factions have access to the new disciplines, but without detailing which units may use them.
Because "the Space Marines Faction" doesn't include Blood Angels etc.
As a reasonable person, personally? Sure I'd extend the powers to "any Psyker with any Factions listed on the Datacards" to generate their powers. But as RAW? It says nothing about whether it's all or which Psykers from those Factions.
Fair enough. Not much one can say to argue against that. RAI it's very clear imo, but yes RAW I see there is an issue.
Who can cast Psychic powers normally? Librarians, obviously. You need a Psychic Mastery Level to cast a psychic power, so I don't understand the confusion at all. This game has some very strange people playing it, if they're confused about such an intuitive, obvious answer.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Who can cast Psychic powers normally? Librarians, obviously. You need a Psychic Mastery Level to cast a psychic power, so I don't understand the confusion at all. This game has some very strange people playing it, if they're confused about such an intuitive, obvious answer.
I agree; the RAI is pretty obvious. But for those wishing to address the rules purely on RAW, then yes there is an issue of who can use the powers, even with such a clear RAI
GW clearly intends these type of suppliments to be interpreted intuitively, which I believe means they have some kind of faith in their customer base's intellect and ability to put 2 and 2 together...clearly, they have too much optimism towards some of the people who play this game.
So what is the "obvious intent" for GK psykers? Everything has a mastery level in that codex. Everyone gets access now ?
What about the DW psyker that only has access to biomancy right now ?
And while we're at it I'm going ahead and give my inquisition and Astra militarum guys access to all the regular disciplines as shown on the regular reference card, right ?
Can normal GK models roll on other psychic discipline charts? No? Then no, they cannot. Can their actual librarians? Yes? Then yes, they can.
If the DW psyker rules specifically state he can only take the Biomancy discipline, then that is a more specific rule, and should take precedence.
Inquisition and AM are battle brothers to SM, not part of the SM faction, obviously. Nowhere are those two factions mentioned, so no idea what you're getting at there.
nekooni wrote: So what is the "obvious intent" for GK psykers? Everything has a mastery level in that codex. Everyone gets access now ?
There is a difference between "Pskyer", "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psychic Pilot". I think it is clear that those with the Psyker special rule have access.
What about the DW psyker that only has access to biomancy right now ?
He gets it just as Sevrin Loth does.... Otherwise there is no reason for the DW to have access
And while we're at it I'm going ahead and give my inquisition and Astra militarum guys access to all the regular disciplines as shown on the regular reference card, right ?
Brother Payne wrote: There is a difference between "Pskyer", "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psychic Pilot". I think it is clear that those with the Psyker special rule have access.
Except the Psychic phase rules say this:
"For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules."
So yeah, there's not necessarily a difference.
Um what. They're not on the datacard.
He said regular reference card. That lists Astra Militarum as having access to all of the regular disciplines. Except we know that the Astropath for example is only allowed to generate from Telepathy according to the codex, while the Primaris Psyker is allowed to generate from Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis. What you're suggesting is that both Astropath and Primaris Psyker should have access to all of the regular disciplines just because the regular reference card says so.
Similarly here with the new disciplines we've got a reference card saying the Faction has access to all powers but, by the Astra Militarum example, it's clear that is talking about overall Faction access, not unit access. And sadly there's no specification of unit access for non-Space Marine Faction.
In that case, if specific psychic disciplines are mentioned, then those are the disciplines that can be chosen, not these new ones that are SPECIFIC TO SPACE MARINE FACTIONS. If there is no specification access to non-CSM factions, then non-CSM factions can't take them. What's the confusion here?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: In that case, if specific psychic disciplines are mentioned, then those are the disciplines that can be chosen, not these new ones that are SPECIFIC TO SPACE MARINE FACTIONS. If there is no specification access to non-CSM factions, then non-CSM factions can't take them. What's the confusion here?
Which Psykers in the non-Codex Space Marine factions can take them? Can a BA Librarian> What about Mephiston? What about a Librarian Dreadnought? Which GK Psykers? Can a Grandmaster use them? What about Purifiers?
Yes, all loyal Space Marine variants have access, but currently no units do, outside of Codex: Space Marines.
Brother Payne wrote: There is a difference between "Pskyer", "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psychic Pilot". I think it is clear that those with the Psyker special rule have access.
Except the Psychic phase rules say this:
"For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules."
So yeah, there's not necessarily a difference.
Um what. They're not on the datacard.
He said regular reference card. That lists Astra Militarum as having access to all of the regular disciplines. Except we know that the Astropath for example is only allowed to generate from Telepathy according to the codex, while the Primaris Psyker is allowed to generate from Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis. What you're suggesting is that both Astropath and Primaris Psyker should have access to all of the regular disciplines just because the regular reference card says so.
Similarly here with the new disciplines we've got a reference card saying the Faction has access to all powers but, by the Astra Militarum example, it's clear that is talking about overall Faction access, not unit access. And sadly there's no specification of unit access for non-Space Marine Faction.
Fair points. RAI I'd be letting the DW librarian use the powers regardless as there is no other reason for DW to be able to take the powers. I would also be letting all BA, DA and SW Psykers take them. Not so sure about GK, and regardless, this does need an FAQ.
Edit: I think the outcome of that would be them simply adjusting "Psykers with the Space Marine faction" to "Psykers with the SM, GK, BA, DA, DW or SW factions". Thus allowing allGK Psyker units to use the powers. Alternatively they may rule it to units with the Psyker USR, rather than all Psykers. Ofc that will remain to be seen
Why wouldn't a BA librarian be able to use the new powers, or Mephiston, or a libby dreadnought? They're psykers with a mastery level, and it clearly says that BA can take the new disciplines.
GK units specifically state which powers they know from sanctic - if they don't specifically state that, such as with their librarians, then can choose an allowed discipline.
For example, the grand master states that they can choose: Daemonology(Sanctic), Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines
As opposed to a Strike Squad, which states: Strike Squads know the Banishment and Hammerhand powers from the Daemonology (Sanctic) discipline.
Its VERY obvious where GK can draw their powers from, and it's unfortunate that some players can't seem to grasp it.
The RAW is very clear on this one. The RAI is also very clear, but we play the game and argue RAW in YMDC. TLDR: Only Faction Space Marines can use the new powers.
This is the permissions for which units can access the new psychic powers. Notice it says Space Marines faction. This means only Codex Space Marine Psykers can generate powers from these new disciplines. Space Marines Faction does not include Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, or Space Wolves, as they are their own respective factions. This is evident by their different codices as well as the following from the BRB:
Now, everyone keeps arguing that the reference card gives the Factions the ability to access these powers, and it does. The problem with that is that it only tells us the faction has access to those powers, not that everything in that faction that can generate powers can generate from those disciplines.
These are the two reference cards for psychic powers. Notice that the Chaos Demons Faction can access Biomancy. This obviously doesn't mean that every psyker in the Chaos Demons Faction can generate powers from Biomancy, only that some units/models in the codex can access them. This is evident in the Lord of Change entry, where it lists what powers it can take.
Notice the faction has access, but this model can't access it. The same applies for the new powers and the BA/GK/DA/SW Factions. The Faction has access to that power, it's just not defined what that access is at the moment. I mean, check out Blood Angels. It says the Faction has access to Telepathy and Telekinesis, but no models currently in the book can generate powers from those two disciplines (but they can generate from Pyromancy now).
Someone mentioned Sevrin Loth: note that Sevrin Loth may only roll on the new powers at the moment, but he may not pick from them. He can only pick from Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis.
That's the reference card for this product, for the rulebook psychic disciplines.
The point of showing that is to point out that a Faction having a particular discipline available to it according to the reference card does not mean that all Psykers within that Faction have access to those disciplines, as evidenced in Astra Militarum, Daemons etc. where a particular Psyker unit has access to a certain discipline while another Psyker unit has access to other disciplines.
Crazyterran wrote:Someone mentioned Sevrin Loth: note that Sevrin Loth may only roll on the new powers at the moment, but he may not pick from them. He can only pick from Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis.
I mentioned Sevrin Loth and yes; there is no rule allowing him to pick powers from the new disciplines, only to roll on them. I brought up Sevrin Loth to suppose that the new powers would overrule the restriction to which powers a units may take - for example the DW librarian that can only take biomancy. I am aware that this does not currently allow that librarian to take the new powers as there is nothing RAW stating that he may, but it was to address someone's objection that he would be limited by the biomancy restriction.
That's the reference card for this product, for the rulebook psychic disciplines.
The point of showing that is to point out that a Faction having a particular discipline available to it according to the reference card does not mean that all Psykers within that Faction have access to those disciplines, as evidenced in Astra Militarum, Daemons etc. where a particular Psyker unit has access to a certain discipline while another Psyker unit has access to other disciplines.
I think retrogamer's point was that there has been a blood angels codex update since the card was released, hence the change in powers available to them (I cannot say for certain as I do not have the new BA codex to compare).
Your point about disciples available to certain codices vs disciplines available to units within said codex remains.
Crazyterran wrote:Someone mentioned Sevrin Loth: note that Sevrin Loth may only roll on the new powers at the moment, but he may not pick from them. He can only pick from Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis.
I mentioned Sevrin Loth and yes; there is no rule allowing him to pick powers from the new disciplines, only to roll on them. I brought up Sevrin Loth to suppose that the new powers would overrule the restriction to which powers a units may take - for example the DW librarian that can only take biomancy. I am aware that this does not currently allow that librarian to take the new powers as there is nothing RAW stating that he may, but it was to address someone's objection that he would be limited by the biomancy restriction.
That's the reference card for this product, for the rulebook psychic disciplines. That just goes to show that Reference Cards simply do not give access to disciplines on a unit level and that even leaving a discipline unused by a faction is common, even if the faction has access to the discipline.
The point of showing that is to point out that a Faction having a particular discipline available to it according to the reference card does not mean that all Psykers within that Faction have access to those disciplines, as evidenced in Astra Militarum, Daemons etc. where a particular Psyker unit has access to a certain discipline while another Psyker unit has access to other disciplines.
I think retrogamer's point was that there has been a blood angels codex update since the card was released, hence the change in powers available to them (I cannot say for certain as I do not have the new BA codex to compare).
Your point about disciples available to certain codices vs disciplines available to units within said codex remains.
Edit: spelling
On the old ref card Astra Militarum has access to ALL classic disciplines, same as Inquisition - but both factions have no unit with access to at least one of those disciplines.
The DW guy is clearly intended to be limited to biomancy, so I think he shouldn't gain access to the new ones at all. There's good reason to say the "Librarius" isn't available to SM Factions that do not have Librarians, specifically Space Wolves. Just two examples where I think that the intent probably isn't "sure, give them those powers, too".
nekooni wrote: Future use? By mistake? Why has the Astra Militarum access to ALL regular disciplines?
To be fair, probably because the Astra Militarum codex states the Primaris Psyker has access to Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis and the Astropath has access to Telepathy, plus the rulebook states they have access to Malefic and Sanctic Daemonology as well as Force if they have a weapon with the Force special rule (which the Primaris Psyker does).
But once again, that highlights how a Faction may overall have access to a range of disciplines while only certain Psykers within that Faction have access to specific disciplines.
I love you guys but sometimes you guys are on another level. Sometimes you can create problems with RAI vs RAW and I think its done intentionally to start a debate to display intellect that is not appreciated due to the fact that the debate is an unneccessary evil.
Could it be worded better yes, but what cannot be worded better?
CKO wrote: I love you guys but sometimes you guys are on another level. Sometimes you can create problems with RAI vs RAW and I think its done intentionally to start a debate to display intellect that is not appreciated due to the fact that the debate is an unneccessary evil.
I feel like this is another example of a common mistake on this forum, which is assuming that those involved in intensive or very particular rules arguments actually play their games in the same way. Certainly for myself I do not, and I think discussions such as this have a lot of value in terms of quickly resolving actual queries or disagreements in game. Those that cannot be quickly or otherwise agreeably resolved have a roll off, as they should.
This is a rules discussion forum, after all.
Could it be worded better yes, but what cannot be worded better?
Sure, but given we've got a number of Factions we know have access to a wide range of disciplines per the reference cards yet only certain units within that Faction having access to one or a few of those disciplines and another unit having access to the others, it's not simply a matter of saying, "Ah yes, clearly all Psyker units in those Factions should have the same access."
It's further complicated by Grey Knights being made up entirely of Psykers, yes despite it being clear the majority of their units know only specific powers. One could easily say, "Well if we accept a Grey Knights Strike Squad is allowed only to know the powers specified why can we not insist a Grey Knights Librarian or Brother Captain is allowed to know only the Disciplines specified in the same way?"
Yes, my HIWPI is to allow all Librarians or equivalent thereof, as well as the Grey Knight Brother Captain, to have access to those powers, but given the precedent elsewhere it's not at all right to say, "Oh it's so obviously this for sure with no doubt whatsoever."
I don't see it mentioned in this thread yet, but it was in the previous thread that this was argued in. I believe the intent is clearly to allow the special marines to use the new powers, considering the website explicitly calls them out when talking about the new powers when you go to the page to buy the book. But then the book itself only calls out Space Marine Faction. So it falls to the players to decide if space marine faction in this callout applies to DA, BA, etc. as well. The only other time "Space Marine Faction" is specifically mentioned to include those extra books is in the CSM codex.
The "who can generate" question is silly. If we believe the rule callout to mean blood angels can generate these powers, then it's any psyker in the blood angels codex, as stated in the rule callout. This question doesn't really apply to the argument, because it explicitly states "any psyker" can generate these powers. This would (if we believe BA can access the powers) mean that any psyker can use them, due to the codex being older than AoD, so it adds the rules to it. Some people seem to be using this argument (maybe not this thread) to say "Well the codex doesn't say it!" Of course the codex doesn't say it. It can't. Neither does the SM codex. The rules are in AoD.
RAW I think the arguments are stronger to mean vanilla marines only, but RAI I think they fethed it up badly, and meant for all marines to be able to generate from the new powers (if the model/unit generates powers and doesn't come preloaded, like GK troops). The wording really screws over people that bought the book thinking they could use the powers because they're literally told they're able to until they read the book, as well.
BossJakadakk wrote: I don't see it mentioned in this thread yet, but it was in the previous thread that this was argued in. I believe the intent is clearly to allow the special marines to use the new powers, considering the website explicitly calls them out when talking about the new powers when you go to the page to buy the book. But then the book itself only calls out Space Marine Faction. So it falls to the players to decide if space marine faction in this callout applies to DA, BA, etc. as well. The only other time "Space Marine Faction" is specifically mentioned to include those extra books is in the CSM codex.
The "who can generate" question is silly. If we believe the rule callout to mean blood angels can generate these powers, then it's any psyker in the blood angels codex, as stated in the rule callout. This question doesn't really apply to the argument, because it explicitly states "any psyker" can generate these powers. This would (if we believe BA can access the powers) mean that any psyker can use them, due to the codex being older than AoD, so it adds the rules to it. Some people seem to be using this argument (maybe not this thread) to say "Well the codex doesn't say it!" Of course the codex doesn't say it. It can't. Neither does the SM codex. The rules are in AoD.
RAW I think the arguments are stronger to mean vanilla marines only, but RAI I think they fethed it up badly, and meant for all marines to be able to generate from the new powers (if the model/unit generates powers and doesn't come preloaded, like GK troops). The wording really screws over people that bought the book thinking they could use the powers because they're literally told they're able to until they read the book, as well.
AoD is an SM supplement and provides rule support for SM use of the new disciplines. There are (currently) no other rules granting any special marine units access to the new disciplines.
It would have been very easy to include an rules for the special marine factions in AoD. Not clean, but easy. Cleaner might be publishing rules for the special marine factions in an WD issue or in an upcomming campaign book.
Access by faction means very little, as demonstrated by the reference card provided with the 7th Ed Psychic powers deck. A tick doesn't imply access for all units or access without purchasing an artefact from a codex supplement for example.
nekooni wrote: Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.
Wait like which..? All listed factions have Psykers no? I think it would be fairly ridiculous for anyone to argue against you using the new disciplines on the grounds that whilst your faction can use it none of your units can...
There are no rules supporting or defining access for special marine faction units to the new disciplines.
Without rules providing permission, it is quite ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost and expect opponents to be fine with that.
If you choose to ignore the quick reference chart then yes it would be ridiculous.
Otherwise it is ridiculous not to think that the quick reference chart counts as rules indicating exactly which factions can now take which new powers - which it does.
nekooni wrote: Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.
Wait like which..? All listed factions have Psykers no? I think it would be fairly ridiculous for anyone to argue against you using the new disciplines on the grounds that whilst your faction can use it none of your units can...
There are no rules supporting or defining access for special marine faction units to the new disciplines.
Without rules providing permission, it is quite ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost and expect opponents to be fine with that.
If you choose to ignore the quick reference chart then yes it would be ridiculous.
Otherwise it is ridiculous not to think that the quick reference chart counts as rules indicating exactly which factions can now take which new powers - which it does.
Yes it indicates that other factions can use the powers. Now find me a rule that lets specific units within those factions to use the powers. This is the real issue, not whether or not other factions can use them, but which units can.
I totally understand the argument. Like I said, RAW I agree with you, but I really dislike it. RAI could go either way, I think. As I said, I just believe it was supposed to be all-inclusive due to the advertising on the website (which still says the psychic disciplines are add-ons to the other codices, btw), and the printing of the reference card.
The book itself (per the picture shown) says "Any psyker with the Space Marine Faction" are who get access to the new disciplines. So there is no question of who can generate the powers within a codex, just a debate of "Can BA/DA/etc. access these disciplines" because of the advertising and the reference card. Per the book, no, not unless they clarify that "Faction" is supposed to be all-inclusive. Per everything else, yes.
So, the tick doesn't imply access for all units. I'm not saying it does. It implies access to the discipline for at least one unit. But then, we read the book, and it says "Any psyker." So the logical conclusion (if we were to for some reason agree that BA can use it) would be that any BA psyker that can generate powers can generate them from the new disciplines. IOW, the units that can use the powers are already spelled out as "Any psyker." That's all I'm trying to say. There's not really any fog covering what units would be able to generate the powers. We just need GW to tell us what armies (if any) actually do have access outside vanilla marines.
Seems like some tournaments are allowing what I believe to be the RAI, but again, I agree that would be houseruling. Definitely HIWPI though.
nekooni wrote: Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.
Wait like which..? All listed factions have Psykers no? I think it would be fairly ridiculous for anyone to argue against you using the new disciplines on the grounds that whilst your faction can use it none of your units can...
There are no rules supporting or defining access for special marine faction units to the new disciplines.
Without rules providing permission, it is quite ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost and expect opponents to be fine with that.
If you choose to ignore the quick reference chart then yes it would be ridiculous.
Otherwise it is ridiculous not to think that the quick reference chart counts as rules indicating exactly which factions can now take which new powers - which it does.
Yes it indicates that other factions can use the powers. Now find me a rule that lets specific units within those factions to use the powers. This is the real issue, not whether or not other factions can use them, but which units can.
"Any psyker" is explicitly stated in the rule callout in AoD.
nekooni wrote: Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.
Wait like which..? All listed factions have Psykers no? I think it would be fairly ridiculous for anyone to argue against you using the new disciplines on the grounds that whilst your faction can use it none of your units can...
There are no rules supporting or defining access for special marine faction units to the new disciplines.
Without rules providing permission, it is quite ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost and expect opponents to be fine with that.
If you choose to ignore the quick reference chart then yes it would be ridiculous.
Otherwise it is ridiculous not to think that the quick reference chart counts as rules indicating exactly which factions can now take which new powers - which it does.
Yes it indicates that other factions can use the powers. Now find me a rule that lets specific units within those factions to use the powers. This is the real issue, not whether or not other factions can use them, but which units can.
"Any psyker" is explicitly stated in the rule callout in AoD.
"Any Psyker" or "Any Psyker of the Space Marine Faction"?
nekooni wrote: Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.
Wait like which..? All listed factions have Psykers no? I think it would be fairly ridiculous for anyone to argue against you using the new disciplines on the grounds that whilst your faction can use it none of your units can...
There are no rules supporting or defining access for special marine faction units to the new disciplines.
Without rules providing permission, it is quite ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost and expect opponents to be fine with that.
If you choose to ignore the quick reference chart then yes it would be ridiculous.
Otherwise it is ridiculous not to think that the quick reference chart counts as rules indicating exactly which factions can now take which new powers - which it does.
Yes it indicates that other factions can use the powers. Now find me a rule that lets specific units within those factions to use the powers. This is the real issue, not whether or not other factions can use them, but which units can.
"Any psyker" is explicitly stated in the rule callout in AoD.
"Any Psyker" or "Any Psyker of the Space Marine Faction"?
Why would you over look the quick reference chart? I believe the chart was made to make life easier for those of us who do not think to much about rules and who want a simple answer. To fabricate reasons that contradicts the simple and logical response that one would have after reading a reference chart seems to be rules lawyering.
If I knew about the quick reference chart I would have never asked the question! To bring up another question about who is just deviating away from the fact that the answer to the original question is simple. So as a response a new debate is started about who is a psyker?
"Any Psyker" or "Any Psyker of the Space Marine Faction"?
Technically, both. (I do realize that what you're saying is there's a modifier)
But the question is more (in my mind) "What armies comprise the Space Marine Faction?" Not "What units have access to the powers?" These are different questions. Again, the units that would have access if we believe BA are part of the SM Faction is spelled out.
If you say that it's only referring to what units within C:SM get access, then I feel like your argument is simply that the reference card was printed wrong, and that Space Marine Faction simply means C:SM.
What if it simply said "The Space Marine Faction may access these disciplines"? Would anyone be arguing that tactical squads could take them, because it didn't specify psykers?
BossJakadakk wrote: But the question is more (in my mind) "What armies comprise the Space Marine Faction?" Not "What units have access to the powers?" These are different questions. Again, the units that would have access if we believe BA are part of the SM Faction is spelled out.
Check 'Factions' (pg. 118, main rulebook). It's abundantly clear that Blood Angels are not of the 'Space Marines Faction'. Blood Angels are of the 'Blood Angels Faction'.
Here is a simple thing Who are Space marines? Blood Angels are a type of Space Marine, So are Space Wolves, So are Deathwatch, Grey Knights are some sort of super Space Marine. All this back and forth is rule lawyering cause someone doesn't like it and wants it different. The quick reference Chart which is a GW document quite plainly says what is what.
Codex: Angels of Death is a space marine supplement, which is why it just states space marines.
I actually bought the new cards and not the AoD supplement.
So for the rules for the new cards, the only thing to go by is the reference sheet that came with the cards which clearly states which factions can use them.
Nobody is. RaW that doesn't do much because it says that they have access to the powers but not who. For example it says Space Wolves have access to Geokinesis but with what unit? Could be just Njal or it could be Grey Hunters. The card doesn't give any unit permission to access the power.
BossJakadakk wrote: But the question is more (in my mind) "What armies comprise the Space Marine Faction?" Not "What units have access to the powers?" These are different questions. Again, the units that would have access if we believe BA are part of the SM Faction is spelled out.
Check 'Factions' (pg. 118, main rulebook). It's abundantly clear that Blood Angels are not of the 'Space Marines Faction'. Blood Angels are of the 'Blood Angels Faction'.
I know, and that's why I agree with your assessment RAW. I just object to people trying to prove the point of "OK fine let's say the BA can use the powers, which units have access? NONE!" It takes away from the debate by asking a totally irrelevant question. If you acknowledge psykers from BA can take these powers (and therefore are covered under the rules callout that states "Any psyker from the SM Faction...", then psykers from BA can take these powers. "Any psyker" is HIWPI, but definitely not RAW.
If you disagree with the reference card, then you likely think it was not meant to be printed how it is. That's a logical assumption based on the supplement book.
There is also precedent (but only one I think?) of when "Space Marines" includes all space marine codices (CSM Hatred: SM). This isn't how they wrote AoD though, so RAW it really is just vanilla manila. It's a restriction I really believe they didn't think through enough, though. I believe the writers thought that "Space Marine Faction" means something different than it does RAW.
We have specific permission for any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction to use the new Disciplines. ONLY Psykers chosen from Codex: Space Marines have the Space Marines Faction.
Psykers chosen from Codex: Blood Angels do not have the Space Marines Faction.
Psykers chosen from Codex: Space Wolves do not have the Space Marines Faction.
Psykers chosen from Codex: Dark Angels do not have the Space Marines Faction.
Psykers chosen from Codex: Grey Knights do not have the Space Marines Faction.
Until there is an FAQ or Errata telling us which non-Space Marines Faction Psykers have access to the new Disciplines... none of them do. The reference card implies that they might in the future, but currently we have no wording anywhere granting any Psykers from a non-Space Marines Faction access to the new Disciplines.
I know some of you are convinced that Blood Angels have the Space Marines Faction. They don't. Go back and reread the rule book. If you don't understand such a core concept, you really shouldn't be participating in such an emphatic way in a rules debate. The concept of a Faction is absolutely critical to how an army is constructed. Can you put a unit of Sanguinary Guard into a Grey Knights Detachment? Nope. Why not? They have different Factions and that's not allowed. Can you give a Blood Angels Psyker a Psychic Power from a Discipline that only Space Marines Faction Psykers have access to? Nope. Why not? Wrong Faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, these sorts of discussions could be avoided by doing what they really need to do. Axe the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolf Codexes and roll them into Codex: Space Marines just like all the other First Founding Chapters.
There is no Codex: Salamanders or Codex: Iron Hands. Why should there be a Codex: Blood Angels? Having their own Codex means they don't get all the toys that Vanilla Marines get. This includes the new Psychic Powers.
BossJakadakk wrote: There is also precedent (but only one I think?) of when "Space Marines" includes all space marine codices (CSM Hatred: SM). This isn't how they wrote AoD though, so RAW it really is just vanilla manila. It's a restriction I really believe they didn't think through enough, though. I believe the writers thought that "Space Marine Faction" means something different than it does RAW.
Its not a precedent, as the Designers Note in Codex Chaos Space Marines is quite specific in that it applies to rules in that book which provide 'Preferred Enemy (Space Marines)' or 'Hatred (Space Marines)' and never says anything at all about the 'Space Marines Faction'.
BossJakadakk wrote: There is also precedent (but only one I think?) of when "Space Marines" includes all space marine codices (CSM Hatred: SM). This isn't how they wrote AoD though, so RAW it really is just vanilla manila. It's a restriction I really believe they didn't think through enough, though. I believe the writers thought that "Space Marine Faction" means something different than it does RAW.
Its not a precedent, as the Designers Note in Codex Chaos Space Marines is quite specific in that it applies to rules in that book which provide 'Preferred Enemy (Space Marines)' or 'Hatred (Space Marines)' and never says anything at all about the 'Space Marines Faction'.
Agreed. You can also have Preferred Enemy (Characters) or (Psykers), so Preferred Enemy doesn't necessarily refer to a given Faction. In fact, Preferred Enemy identifies a specific "type of foe". Preferred Enemy (Tau Empire) would refer to a type of foe called a "Tau Empire" type foe. We assume that to mean Tau Empire Faction. Similarly, we assume Space Marines means Space Marines Faction. The callout in the CSM book is because the author's intention doesn't match with the most reasonable (and widespread) interpretation.
BossJakadakk wrote: There is also precedent (but only one I think?) of when "Space Marines" includes all space marine codices (CSM Hatred: SM). This isn't how they wrote AoD though, so RAW it really is just vanilla manila. It's a restriction I really believe they didn't think through enough, though. I believe the writers thought that "Space Marine Faction" means something different than it does RAW.
Its not a precedent, as the Designers Note in Codex Chaos Space Marines is quite specific in that it applies to rules in that book which provide 'Preferred Enemy (Space Marines)' or 'Hatred (Space Marines)' and never says anything at all about the 'Space Marines Faction'.
That's valid, I was actually just wondering if it said "Faction" in the callout or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And really the only reason I'm even here is because I almost bought the book thinking I'd be able to use the powers with my small BA force, due to the fact that the website explicitly tells us the book has new powers for all librarians among all the SM armies. Once I saw the quoted part of AoD, I was like wtf. Then I saw the reference card. Even further wtf.
So much wtf with this release. That's the reason I acknowledge RAW, but am very in favor for a forgiving RAI/HIWPI playstyle (and yeah I know this board is for RAW, I've been agreeing with RAW-vanilla-only)
BossJakadakk, this board is not necessarily for RAW. however RAW plays a big part (which is why it's important to note if you are talking RAW/HYWPI). That said, I don't think many people play strict RAW in this case and are fine with Psykers that generate powers from the various Adeptus Astartes, being allowed to roll on these.
I know my group plays this way (can't recall if all GK can generate or not).
Happyjew wrote: BossJakadakk, this board is not necessarily for RAW. however RAW plays a big part (which is why it's important to note if you are talking RAW/HYWPI). That said, I don't think many people play strict RAW in this case and are fine with Psykers that generate powers from the various Adeptus Astartes, being allowed to roll on these.
I know my group plays this way (can't recall if all GK can generate or not).
Oh really? That's actually good to know, even though I do try to make sure I say when I'm talking about HIWPI and such.
The reference card implies that they might in the future, but currently we have no wording anywhere granting any Psykers from a non-Space Marines Faction access to the new Disciplines.
So the card is a reference to the future! lol
Wow, anymore reasons to ignore the reference card besides it is something that might happen in the future?
Happyjew wrote: (can't recall if all GK can generate or not).
Some GK units can generate powers from Disciplines (Librarian at least), many (pretty much the BoP units) cannot generate anything having a stuck list of powers.
Those that cannot generate randomly obviously cannot gain access to the AoD Disciplines. Those who generate randomly? Well... Obviously that's part of the point of the thread.
And not even every Psyker in most armies generate from a list of the same Disciplines, either. If it was consistent there, that would make sense and more easily to apply things like precedence for it.
Cko we've been over this again and again.
The reference card does not give access on a unit level. The Angels of Death supplement does, but only for the vanilla Space Marine faction.
Thats what the written rules are.
Happyjew wrote: (can't recall if all GK can generate or not).
Some GK units can generate powers from Disciplines (Librarian at least), many (pretty much the BoP units) cannot generate anything having a stuck list of powers.
Those that cannot generate randomly obviously cannot gain access to the AoD Disciplines. Those who generate randomly? Well... Obviously that's part of the point of the thread.
And not even every Psyker in most armies generate from a list of the same Disciplines, either. If it was consistent there, that would make sense and more easily to apply things like precedence for it.
You misunderstand me. I was saying that for my group, I am unsure if it was decided that psykers that do not normally generate their powers randomly, could instead generate powers on the new tables.
nekooni wrote: The reference card does not give access on a unit level. The Angels of Death supplement does, but only for the vanilla Space Marine faction.
So the reference card give access to what than? What does the reference card mean, what is it saying?
The angels of death supplement does not say space marine codex, so technically I can use your argument to deny vanilla Space Marines access?
On page 53 they say codex space marines for terminator captain and cataphractii terminators but for the psychic powers they say space marine faction I think GW knows the difference and I think anyone that looks at the reference card knows the difference.
Also on page 52 it doesn't say Space Marine Codex it says librarian with the space marine faction so it clearly means librarians with a space marine faction have access to those powers.
CKO wrote: On page 53 they say codex space marines for terminator captain and cataphractii terminators but for the psychic powers they say space marine faction I think GW knows the difference and I think anyone that looks at the reference card knows the difference.
Also on page 52 it doesn't say Space Marine Codex it says librarian with the space marine faction so it clearly means librarians with a space marine faction have access to those powers.
And as has already been noted, GW has clearly told us how to determine a unit's Faction on page 118 of the main rulebook. Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are not Space Marines Faction. They are each their own individual Faction per GW's own rules.
nekooni wrote: The reference card does not give access on a unit level. The Angels of Death supplement does, but only for the vanilla Space Marine faction.
So the reference card give access to what than? What does the reference card mean, what is it saying?
The angels of death supplement does not say space marine codex, so technically I can use your argument to deny vanilla Space Marines access?
On page 53 they say codex space marines for terminator captain and cataphractii terminators but for the psychic powers they say space marine faction I think GW knows the difference and I think anyone that looks at the reference card knows the difference.
Also on page 52 it doesn't say Space Marine Codex it says librarian with the space marine faction so it clearly means librarians with a space marine faction have access to those powers.
A unit is Faction: Space Marines if it comes from Codex: Space Marines. This is army building 101. If you don't understand this concept, you need to revisit the core rules. Page and paragraph has been quoted above. You're simply ignoring them.
What does the reference card tell us? Nothing useful. We need to know which specific units can select which disciplines. Does the reference card tell us that? Nope. It says Blood Angels can use the new powers. Great. Which units? That question remains unanswered. Until GW lets us know, saying that a specific unit from Codex: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Grey Knights has access to the new disciplines is an unsupported house rule.
You guys are clearly rules lawyer who complicate matters for the sake of complicating. You say ignore the reference card but do not offer any reasons why we should ignore it. The supplement uses Codex Space Marines for certain things but use space marine faction librarians for the psychic powers. If it was just Space Marine codex librarians they would have said space marine codex librarians but they didn't. GW even has a reference card that clearly tells us who has what.
Codex Space Marines and Space Marine Faction are two separate things to not understand this concept is foolish. To say that the reference card is perhaps referencing the future followed by the reference card doesn't tell us specifics so lets ignore it is twice as foolish.
Rule lawyers trying to complicate things plain and simple!
CKO wrote: You guys are clearly rules lawyer who complicate matters for the sake of complicating. You say ignore the reference card but do not offer any reasons why we should ignore it. The supplement uses Codex Space Marines for certain things but use space marine faction librarians for the psychic powers. If it was just Space Marine codex librarians they would have said space marine codex librarians but they didn't. GW even has a reference card that clearly tells us who has what.
Here's an example of why it is important.
Codex Space Marine Librarian:
A Librarian generates powers from the Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines.
Codex Space Marine Tigurius:
Chief Librarian Tigurius generates his powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Daemonology, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines.
BA Librarian:
Librarians generate their powers from the Sanguinary, Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, and Pyromancy disciplines.
BA Mephiston:
Mephiston always knows the Sanquine Sword psyhic power. He may generate two more powers from the Sanguinary, Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, and Pyromancy diciplines.
DA Librarian:
A Librarian generates his powers from the Daemonology, Divination, Interromancy, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines.
SW Wolf Priest:
A Rune Priest generates his powers from the Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Telekinesis and Tempestas disciplines.
SW Njall Stormcaller:
Njal Stormcaller generates his powers from the Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Telekinesis and Tempestas disciplines.
In most cases, not even the Unique Character has the exact same options for Disciplines as the more generic Psykers can use. If every single Psyker and Psyker unit is supposed to have access, ti would have taken just a few words to include them properly. But they were lazy or deliberate and did not.
CKO wrote: Codex Space Marines and Space Marine Faction are two separate things to not understand this concept is foolish. To say that the reference card is perhaps referencing the future followed by the reference card doesn't tell us specifics so lets ignore it is twice as foolish.
Where does it define those differences then, if you are so sure that they are two separate things?
We are going by the first three paragraphs in Factions under Choosing Your Army in the rulebook. We have nothing else to literally go with so far aside from what some call their own "common sense". It is not our fault that GW have decided to so completely separate out the Angels, Wolves, and Witch Knights from being considered Space Marines by default. If anything, the easiest place to make such an identification would have been either in the Faction or Allies section of the rulebook. Failing that, they would be classified as that in their own codices. Heck, most of these other codices do not even have Chapter Tactics as a connection!
*sigh* A Faction having access to a power doesn't automatically mean every unit in that faction does. Without actual rules (whether it be in a future supplement or an FaQ/Errata) RAW no model in the BA, DA, GK & SW factions can actually generate their powers from the new lores.
We know the factions are probably intended to have at least one model be able to generate from them, but we don't know which as we have no rules saying as such. You can make house rules and arrangements with your opponents, but RAW a BA Librarian or GK Brother-Captain etc etc can't generate powers off of Librarius or Geokinesis any more than my Slaanesh Heralds can generate powers from Biomancy or Divination.
PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)
Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.
Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?
Or should I ignore that the same way I am told to ignore this
due to the fact its not specific enough. I think the problem is that you require extreme specifics to agree with things such as reference cards.
GK, BA, SW & DA models aren't part of the Space Marine Faction however. Models from Codex: Space Marines (and those added to it by supplements like FW books and the units added with Angels of Death) have the Space Marine Faction. A Librarian from Codex:BA has the Blood Angels Faction, not the Space Marines Faction.
And you don't ignore the Reference card. The problem is it doesn't tell you what you think it does.
If you think you because of that reference card a GK Brother-Captain can RAW generate powers from Librarius, do you also think RAW a Slaanesh Herald can generate powers from Divination, or that an AM Astropath can generate powers from Pyromancy? The reference card that comes with the main psychic power deck says their respective factions can.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: *sigh* A Faction having access to a power doesn't automatically mean every unit in that faction does. Without actual rules (whether it be in a future supplement or an FaQ/Errata) RAW no model in the BA, DA, GK & SW factions can actually generate their powers from the new lores.
We know the factions are probably intended to have at least one model be able to generate from them, but we don't know which as we have no rules saying as such. You can make house rules and arrangements with your opponents, but RAW a BA Librarian or GK Brother-Captain etc etc can't generate powers off of Librarius or Geokinesis any more than my Slaanesh Heralds can generate powers from Biomancy or Divination.
Exactly. Is it only Mephiston that can access these powers in the Blood Angel codex, or is Mephiston prevented from accessing them while the Librarian can? Njall and Rune Priests? What about all the Unique Characters in Grey Knights as well as the non-Generics?
Speaking of Grey Knights, are the ones who normally cannot generate powers be excluded, or does this reference card now include them and they can ignore their set powers?
It is these questions to which we do not seem to be getting any written answers on, and sadly, just repeating "WHAT'S ON THE CARD?!" (Seven Parody), is insufficient of a proper, inarguable response..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CKO wrote: PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)
Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.
Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?
Chapters how? By fluff, yes. By rules, no. Fluff is not sufficient, otherwise we can Shoot and Charge with Assault Cannons without being Relentless, and if a Blood Angel Tactical Marine moves with his Heavy Flamer, he cannot Shoot it.
There are no Blood Angels Chapter Tactics. There are no Dark Angels Tactics. There are no Grey Knights Tactics. There are no Space Wolves Tactics.
The list of Factions in the rulebooks state:
Adepta Sororitas
Astra Militarum
Blood Angels
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Inquisition
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Tyranids
Space Marines are from Codex Space Marines and officially a different Factions from Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves, and they are all different Factions from each other. The codices also do not state in their rules that they are the same Faction as Codex Space Marines. Indeed, the symbol that they use is not the winged sword skull of the Space Marines, but a winged blood drop, a winged sword, a sword in a book, and a wolf's head. If they are the same Faction, then they would need to have a rule allowing them to take an Allied Detachment with a Space Marine Primary.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: And you don't ignore the Reference card. The problem is it doesn't tell you what you think it does.
Its a reference card, it isn't going to give specifics thus the name reference card!
Matt.Kingsley wrote: If you think you because of that reference card a GK Brother-Captain can RAW generate powers from Librarius, do you also think RAW a Slaanesh Herald can generate powers from Divination, or that an AM Astropath can generate powers from Pyromancy? The reference card that comes with the main psychic power deck says their respective factions can.
It says librarians it doesn't say Brother Captain it says librarians. The answer to your question is librarians it clearly states this, lets read it slowly because if a reference card is difficult I can only imagine two sentences.
Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.
Which unit? Any Librarian with the space marine faction.
Space marine faction? regardless of which chapter
Are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights space marine chapters? yes
Do they have units called librarians? Yes
Its simple to me and if its not simple to you trust me I understand English and pictures is harder than it seems.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: *sigh* A Faction having access to a power doesn't automatically mean every unit in that faction does. Without actual rules (whether it be in a future supplement or an FaQ/Errata) RAW no model in the BA, DA, GK & SW factions can actually generate their powers from the new lores.
We know the factions are probably intended to have at least one model be able to generate from them, but we don't know which as we have no rules saying as such. You can make house rules and arrangements with your opponents, but RAW a BA Librarian or GK Brother-Captain etc etc can't generate powers off of Librarius or Geokinesis any more than my Slaanesh Heralds can generate powers from Biomancy or Divination.
Exactly. Is it only Mephiston that can access these powers in the Blood Angel codex, or is Mephiston prevented from accessing them while the Librarian can? Njall and Rune Priests? What about all the Unique Characters in Grey Knights as well as the non-Generics?
Speaking of Grey Knights, are the ones who normally cannot generate powers be excluded, or does this reference card now include them and they can ignore their set powers?
It is these questions to which we do not seem to be getting any written answers on, and sadly, just repeating "WHAT'S ON THE CARD?!" (Seven Parody), is insufficient of a proper, inarguable response..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CKO wrote: PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)
Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.
Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?
Chapters how? By fluff, yes. By rules, no. Fluff is not sufficient, otherwise we can Shoot and Charge with Assault Cannons without being Relentless, and if a Blood Angel Tactical Marine moves with his Heavy Flamer, he cannot Shoot it.
There are no Blood Angels Chapter Tactics. There are no Dark Angels Tactics. There are no Grey Knights Tactics. There are no Space Wolves Tactics.
The list of Factions in the rulebooks state:
Adepta Sororitas
Astra Militarum
Blood Angels
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Inquisition
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Tyranids
Space Marines are from Codex Space Marines and officially a different Factions from Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves, and they are all different Factions from each other. The codices also do not state in their rules that they are the same Faction as Codex Space Marines. Indeed, the symbol that they use is not the winged sword skull of the Space Marines, but a winged blood drop, a winged sword, a sword in a book, and a wolf's head. If they are the same Faction, then they would need to have a rule allowing them to take an Allied Detachment with a Space Marine Primary.
Just because you guys are being nitpicky and arguing I am going to point out that you didn't list the factions right. You forgot Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, Legion of the Damned, Deathwatch, Khorne Daemonkin, Militarium Tempest just to name a few.
CKO wrote: They want the reference card to give them specifics and because it doesn't it is to be ignored!
No I have read the thread from the beginning I already made my opinion known on that. But we are now arguing minute interpretations of rules with people who don't play with each other and are probably not Referees. If they want details I am making sure they are right on theirs.
Drakka77 wrote:Just because you guys are being nitpicky and arguing I am going to point out that you didn't list the factions right. You forgot Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, Legion of the Damned, Deathwatch, Khorne Daemonkin, just to name a few.
There weren't around when the rulebook was written.
And even if you have an automatically updating ibook, does that really change the point by combining the Factions in question with Deathwatch and Leigon of the Damned?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: If you think you because of that reference card a GK Brother-Captain can RAW generate powers from Librarius, do you also think RAW a Slaanesh Herald can generate powers from Divination, or that an AM Astropath can generate powers from Pyromancy? The reference card that comes with the main psychic power deck says their respective factions can.
It says librarians it doesn't say Brother Captain it says librarians. The answer to your question is librarians it clearly states this, lets read it slowly because if a reference card is difficult I can only imagine two sentences.
Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.
Which unit? Any Librarian with the space marine faction.
Space marine faction? regardless of which chapter
Are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights space marine chapters? yes
Do they have units called librarians? Yes
Its simple to me and if its not simple to you trust me I understand English and pictures is harder than it seems.
1. It says Psykers not Librarians
2. BA, DA, etc. are not part of the space marine faction. Look it up. The BRB page reference has been provided multiple times. "Chapters" from the fluff are not relevant in a rules discussion
3. It says Psykers not Librarians
4. Even if it did say librarians SW do not have any such units.
Well Deathwatch does have a named Librarian, first. Second, the reference card does have that faction on it.
And third They are still factions and by the way I don't know what rule book your reading, because they stopped naming the imperial factions really in 6th. in 7th its Imperial of Man Faction then the various xenos and traitors.
CKO wrote: Who can use the new Space Marine psychic powers? I was at a tournament and a Space Wolf player was allowed to use them, can grey knights use them also?
On the GW website when they were selling it it specifically stated space wolfs and GK can take it as well
Drakka77 wrote: Well Deathwatch does have a named Librarian, first. Second, the reference card does have that faction on it.
And third They are still factions and by the way I don't know what rule book your reading, because they stopped naming the imperial factions really in 6th. in 7th its Imperial of Man Faction then the various xenos and traitors.
And the DW guy still isnt a Psyker of the Space Marines Faction nor does his fluff imply in any way that he should have access to anything but Biomancy.
All imperial factions have their own name, im not sure what youre talking about. The FAQ just made that very relevant again with the Battle brother Transport ruling.
Drakka77 wrote: Well Deathwatch does have a named Librarian, first. Second, the reference card does have that faction on it.
The Deathwatch Faction, correct, no matter what Chapter he is from, he is still Faction Deathwatch.
Drakka77 wrote: And third They are still factions and by the way I don't know what rule book your reading, because they stopped naming the imperial factions really in 6th. in 7th its Imperial of Man Faction then the various xenos and traitors.
7th Edition Rulebook is where that list is from. The only time that the Armies of the Imperium is mentioned is in the Allies Rules, not the Factions rule, and even lists it as "Units that have the following Factions". Are you saying you did not actually look Factions up in the Factions section of the rulebook?
CKO wrote: It says librarians it doesn't say Brother Captain it says librarians. The answer to your question is librarians it clearly states this, lets read it slowly because if a reference card is difficult I can only imagine two sentences.
Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.
Where are you getting that last quote from? Because from what I can see on the page (link here) it says:
"Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."
Which unit? Any Librarian with the space marine faction.
Space marine faction? regardless of which chapter
Err... no. It says "the Space Marines Faction". Not "any Space Marines Faction, regardless of chapter/including the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Grey Knights Factions".
Space Marines is a separate faction to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Grey Knights.
Are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights space marine chapters? yes
That's not the question, or the point. It doesn't say "any Space Marines chapter". It says "with the Space Marines Faction".
Do they have units called librarians? Yes
Space Wolves do not. Should they miss out?
Its simple to me and if its not simple to you trust me I understand English and pictures is harder than it seems.
It's simple to come to a decision of how you think it should be played. But it's simply wrong to try and claim that the rules actually say the same thing.
Turn to the page prior to the new terminators, there is an entry that says psychic powers that is where I got the quote from!
I've not got access to my books right now, but I'm happy to take your word for it.
That doesn't answer my other points regarding faction, though. "The Space Marines Faction" does not mean "A Space Marine chapter".
EDIT:
Right, now I see your confusion. As you say, it states "Any Librarian with the Space Marines Faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from..."
As I stated though, that restricts it to Librarians of the "Space Marines Faction". That does not include Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves (who don't even have Librarians) or Grey Knights. They each have their own Faction ("Blood Angels Faction", "Dark Angels Faction" etc.) which is not the Space Marines Faction. When it talks about Chapter it is referring to Chapter Tactics within the Space Marines Faction.
For example, if a Dark Angels Librarian is considered part of the Space Marines Faction it could not be included in the Dark Angels Lion's Blade Strike Force - as we can see from the Lion's Blade Strike detachment's restrictions:
"Only the datasheets listed above can be included in this Detachment, and all units in the Detachment must have the Dark Angels Faction."
Turn to the page prior to the new terminators, there is an entry that says psychic powers that is where I got the quote from!
I've not got access to my books right now, but I'm happy to take your word for it.
That doesn't answer my other points regarding faction, though. "The Space Marines Faction" does not mean "A Space Marine chapter".
Its there, but it still only grants access to the disciplines to the Space Marine faction, not eg Grey Knights.
Space Marine faction only includes chapters from vanilla chapters.
Turn to the page prior to the new terminators, there is an entry that says psychic powers that is where I got the quote from!
I've not got access to my books right now, but I'm happy to take your word for it.
That doesn't answer my other points regarding faction, though. "The Space Marines Faction" does not mean "A Space Marine chapter".
EDIT:
Right, now I see your confusion. As you say, it states "Any Librarian with the Space Marines Faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from..."
As I stated though, that restricts it to Librarians of the "Space Marines Faction". That does not include Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves (who don't even have Librarians) or Grey Knights. They each have their own Faction ("Blood Angels Faction", "Dark Angels Faction" etc.) which is not the Space Marines Faction. When it talks about Chapter it is referring to Chapter Tactics within the Space Marines Faction.
For example, if a Dark Angels Librarian is considered part of the Space Marines Faction it could not be included in the Dark Angels Lion's Blade Strike Force - as we can see from the Lion's Blade Strike detachment's restrictions:
"Only the datasheets listed above can be included in this Detachment, and all units in the Detachment must have the Dark Angels Faction."
Hmm, which then should take precedence? "Any Psyker" or "any Librarian"? RAW could it not be argued that Tiggy is not a Librarian (ofc I'm well aware he's a librarian; but rules-wise..)?
Brother Payne wrote: Hmm, which then should take precedence? "Any Psyker" or "any Librarian"? RAW could it not be argued that Tiggy is not a Librarian (ofc I'm well aware he's a librarian; but rules-wise..)?
I don't know that we're required to take only one over the other. They're not mutually exclusive in how they're they're phrased.
Brother Payne wrote: Hmm, which then should take precedence? "Any Psyker" or "any Librarian"? RAW could it not be argued that Tiggy is not a Librarian (ofc I'm well aware he's a librarian; but rules-wise..)?
I don't know that we're required to take only one over the other. They're not mutually exclusive in how they're they're phrased.
Actually fair point. The two sentences don't conflict; one just gives a wider scope than the other
Brother Payne wrote: Hmm, which then should take precedence? "Any Psyker" or "any Librarian"? RAW could it not be argued that Tiggy is not a Librarian (ofc I'm well aware he's a librarian; but rules-wise..)?
I don't know that we're required to take only one over the other. They're not mutually exclusive in how they're they're phrased.
Actually fair point. The two sentences don't conflict; one just gives a wider scope than the other
Exactly. I'd just use the Psyker one as that is more inclusive. But both work together just fine, and both tell you clearly that this whole thing is all about the Space Marine faction. Not the Space Wolves faction or any other faction, it is just the Space Marine faction.
And if you (mostly: CKO) want to argue that the Space Marine faction contains e.g. Grey Knights and Blood Angels, you're welcome to use that houserule - but it's not supported by any official GW publication currently in use.
I mean, sure, thats a nice way to get around the BB Transport ruling by saying "we're one faction, haha! Superfriends are back!".
PSYCHIC POWERS Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the Space Marines Faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.
'Psykana Librarius', pg. 107
LIBRARIANS Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to.
Page 107 is the actual rule. Page 52 is just the introduction to the rules section of the book.
Now knowing that they have it in there twice ("SM Faction") - ugh. Then it's either deliberate and the rules writers meant for the powers to be vanilla only and GW advertising didn't get (and still hasn't gotten) the memo, or the writers really thought SM Faction means all codices with any type of SM. I'm now thinking the former, but it will probably be changed later because of the feth up.
CKO, you have demonstrated a pretty large misunderstanding of what factions are. But, I'll ask two questions that I think illustrate the problems with what you're saying. These questions have been asked in previous posts in this thread, but you've skipped past them. Maybe putting them clearly here will help.
Please use rules, not fluff, in your answers.
1) According to your interpretation, what Space Wolves unit can generate powers from the new AoD disciplines? Why can this unit do so?
2) The reference card for the 7e psychic powers shows that Chaos Daemons can access Biomancy. Does this meant that my Pink Horrors can generate powers from Biomancy? Why or why not? (As a note, in their codex, Pink Horrors have access to two disciplines: Change and Divination; there is no errata altering this.)
Here's my thoughts on my questions.
Spoiler:
1) Your argument is based on the idea that since AoD mentions space marine librarians, any unit called librarian from any army that wears primarily power armour and pledges allegiance to the Emperor can generate from the new disciplines. This would exclude Space Wolves, since they do not have a unit called librarian. Why do you think GW would exclude Space Wolves? I cannot see a valid reason for that exclusion.
2) I think based on your flawed argument you'll have to say "Yes, Pink Horrors can generate from Biomancy." If you try to say no, you might reference the publication dates of various books, but this is ridiculous. The 7e rulebook and the Daemons codex are both current, there is no newer publication supplanting either of them, and should be used in conjunction with each other. As a player, I cannot be expected to keep up with publication dates of individual books in addition to everything else in this complicated game. So long as I have the most recent publication (and any applicable FAQs), I should be able to make sense of the rules. I should not have to resort to a timeline of when books were published. The answer has to be no, though, because of the rules. We have to look at the unit entries to determine what each unit can generate. While I would LOVE a unit of 20 Horrors with Iron Arm, that is not legal.
I said what I had to say I cannot ignore the reference card. I understand your complex excuses to the logical response one will get from reading the reference card but it doesn't create confusion. I choose to go with the simple response and not the card can mean this, it doesn't say this, pink horrors don't have access to those powers listed so librarians shouldn't have access to those powers, thus the card is incorrect.
You literally want others to draw several circles to come to your conclusion instead of just going with what your eyes show you, with that being said I choose not to explain to my opponent in a 5 minute paragraph why his eyes maybe deceiving him.
The point of reference card is to prevent these debates from happening. Not my style, not happening, once more a picture is worth a thousand words and you guys can argue against every single word but I am not!
CKO wrote: I said what I had to say I cannot ignore the reference card. I understand your complex excuses to the logical response one will get from reading the reference card but it doesn't create confusion. I choose to go with the simple response and not the card can mean this, it doesn't say this, pink horrors don't have access to those powers listed so librarians shouldn't have access to those powers, thus the card is incorrect.
You literally want others to draw several circles to come to your conclusion instead of just going with what your eyes show you, with that being said I choose not to explain to my opponent in a 5 minute paragraph why his eyes maybe deceiving him.
The point of reference card is to prevent these debates from happening. Not my style, not happening, once more a picture is worth a thousand words and you guys can argue against every single word but I am not!
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but a picture of Old Ironsides doesn't help when I want to install an Evenrude on a rowboat.
CKO - you aren't going to win the argument, what they're saying is true - the non-space marine faction units have no specific rule saying which models get which powers.
however
What is also true is that most tournaments, groups and players are allowing the other factions to use the powers according to the reference sheet and pretty much allowing any psyker from those factions to use a power as long as they have a check mark by the power on the reference sheet.
And if I were a betting man I'd say in the future they will specify it in their codexes.
chaosmarauder wrote: CKO - you aren't going to win the argument, what they're saying is true - the non-space marine faction units have no specific rule saying which models get which powers.
however
What is also true is that most tournaments, groups and players are allowing the other factions to use the powers according to the reference sheet and pretty much allowing any psyker from those factions to use a power as long as they have a check mark by the power on the reference sheet.
And if I were a betting man I'd say in the future they will specify it in their codexes.
I concur.
Realistically speaking, only the most Marine-hating players/TOs will reject allowing these to propagate across all the Marine Chapter codices as the reference card states.
However, this is a case of the players being smarter than the ruleset they are given. This is a common occurrence with GW games and most of us are used to it.
CKO wrote: PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)
Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.
Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?
Right. Incomplete quote. You're leaving out the important information on the rest of that page.
It's very clear when it says "regardless of which chapter" it means "White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists (and their successor chapters)." Everything in this book is for Codex: Space Marines only. The reference card could just be future proofed with the new FAQ's that are going to add powers to the non SM codices.
CKO wrote: PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)
Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.
Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?
Right. Incomplete quote. You're leaving out the important information on the rest of that page.
It's very clear when it says "regardless of which chapter" it means "White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists (and their successor chapters)." Everything in this book is for Codex: Space Marines only. The reference card could just be future proofed with the new FAQ's that are going to add powers to the non SM codices.
By CKO's ruling my dark angels could take an anvil strike force
(I do realize that what you're saying is there's a modifier)
