Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kriswall wrote:

The reference card implies that they might in the future, but currently we have no wording anywhere granting any Psykers from a non-Space Marines Faction access to the new Disciplines.

So the card is a reference to the future! lol



Wow, anymore reasons to ignore the reference card besides it is something that might happen in the future?

 Happyjew wrote:
(can't recall if all GK can generate or not).

Some GK units can generate powers from Disciplines (Librarian at least), many (pretty much the BoP units) cannot generate anything having a stuck list of powers.

Those that cannot generate randomly obviously cannot gain access to the AoD Disciplines. Those who generate randomly? Well... Obviously that's part of the point of the thread.

And not even every Psyker in most armies generate from a list of the same Disciplines, either. If it was consistent there, that would make sense and more easily to apply things like precedence for it.

Cko we've been over this again and again.
The reference card does not give access on a unit level. The Angels of Death supplement does, but only for the vanilla Space Marine faction.
Thats what the written rules are.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
(can't recall if all GK can generate or not).

Some GK units can generate powers from Disciplines (Librarian at least), many (pretty much the BoP units) cannot generate anything having a stuck list of powers.

Those that cannot generate randomly obviously cannot gain access to the AoD Disciplines. Those who generate randomly? Well... Obviously that's part of the point of the thread.

And not even every Psyker in most armies generate from a list of the same Disciplines, either. If it was consistent there, that would make sense and more easily to apply things like precedence for it.

You misunderstand me. I was saying that for my group, I am unsure if it was decided that psykers that do not normally generate their powers randomly, could instead generate powers on the new tables.

nekooni wrote:
The reference card does not give access on a unit level. The Angels of Death supplement does, but only for the vanilla Space Marine faction.

So the reference card give access to what than? What does the reference card mean, what is it saying?

The angels of death supplement does not say space marine codex, so technically I can use your argument to deny vanilla Space Marines access?

On page 53 they say codex space marines for terminator captain and cataphractii terminators but for the psychic powers they say space marine faction I think GW knows the difference and I think anyone that looks at the reference card knows the difference.

Also on page 52 it doesn't say Space Marine Codex it says librarian with the space marine faction so it clearly means librarians with a space marine faction have access to those powers.

 CKO wrote:
On page 53 they say codex space marines for terminator captain and cataphractii terminators but for the psychic powers they say space marine faction I think GW knows the difference and I think anyone that looks at the reference card knows the difference.

Also on page 52 it doesn't say Space Marine Codex it says librarian with the space marine faction so it clearly means librarians with a space marine faction have access to those powers.

And as has already been noted, GW has clearly told us how to determine a unit's Faction on page 118 of the main rulebook. Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are not Space Marines Faction. They are each their own individual Faction per GW's own rules.

 CKO wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The reference card does not give access on a unit level. The Angels of Death supplement does, but only for the vanilla Space Marine faction.

So the reference card give access to what than? What does the reference card mean, what is it saying?

The angels of death supplement does not say space marine codex, so technically I can use your argument to deny vanilla Space Marines access?

On page 53 they say codex space marines for terminator captain and cataphractii terminators but for the psychic powers they say space marine faction I think GW knows the difference and I think anyone that looks at the reference card knows the difference.

Also on page 52 it doesn't say Space Marine Codex it says librarian with the space marine faction so it clearly means librarians with a space marine faction have access to those powers.

A unit is Faction: Space Marines if it comes from Codex: Space Marines. This is army building 101. If you don't understand this concept, you need to revisit the core rules. Page and paragraph has been quoted above. You're simply ignoring them.

What does the reference card tell us? Nothing useful. We need to know which specific units can select which disciplines. Does the reference card tell us that? Nope. It says Blood Angels can use the new powers. Great. Which units? That question remains unanswered. Until GW lets us know, saying that a specific unit from Codex: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Grey Knights has access to the new disciplines is an unsupported house rule.

You guys are clearly rules lawyer who complicate matters for the sake of complicating. You say ignore the reference card but do not offer any reasons why we should ignore it. The supplement uses Codex Space Marines for certain things but use space marine faction librarians for the psychic powers. If it was just Space Marine codex librarians they would have said space marine codex librarians but they didn't. GW even has a reference card that clearly tells us who has what.

Codex Space Marines and Space Marine Faction are two separate things to not understand this concept is foolish. To say that the reference card is perhaps referencing the future followed by the reference card doesn't tell us specifics so lets ignore it is twice as foolish.

Rule lawyers trying to complicate things plain and simple!

So you want to ignore the rules because they don't suit you? Gotcha.

 CKO wrote:
You guys are clearly rules lawyer who complicate matters for the sake of complicating. You say ignore the reference card but do not offer any reasons why we should ignore it. The supplement uses Codex Space Marines for certain things but use space marine faction librarians for the psychic powers. If it was just Space Marine codex librarians they would have said space marine codex librarians but they didn't. GW even has a reference card that clearly tells us who has what.

Here's an example of why it is important.

Codex Space Marine Librarian:

A Librarian generates powers from the Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines.

Codex Space Marine Tigurius:

Chief Librarian Tigurius generates his powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Daemonology, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines.

BA Librarian:

Librarians generate their powers from the Sanguinary, Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, and Pyromancy disciplines.

BA Mephiston:

Mephiston always knows the Sanquine Sword psyhic power. He may generate two more powers from the Sanguinary, Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, and Pyromancy diciplines.

DA Librarian:

A Librarian generates his powers from the Daemonology, Divination, Interromancy, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines.

SW Wolf Priest:

A Rune Priest generates his powers from the Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Telekinesis and Tempestas disciplines.

SW Njall Stormcaller:

Njal Stormcaller generates his powers from the Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Telekinesis and Tempestas disciplines.

In most cases, not even the Unique Character has the exact same options for Disciplines as the more generic Psykers can use. If every single Psyker and Psyker unit is supposed to have access, ti would have taken just a few words to include them properly. But they were lazy or deliberate and did not.

 CKO wrote:
Codex Space Marines and Space Marine Faction are two separate things to not understand this concept is foolish. To say that the reference card is perhaps referencing the future followed by the reference card doesn't tell us specifics so lets ignore it is twice as foolish.

Where does it define those differences then, if you are so sure that they are two separate things?

We are going by the first three paragraphs in Factions under Choosing Your Army in the rulebook. We have nothing else to literally go with so far aside from what some call their own "common sense". It is not our fault that GW have decided to so completely separate out the Angels, Wolves, and Witch Knights from being considered Space Marines by default. If anything, the easiest place to make such an identification would have been either in the Faction or Allies section of the rulebook. Failing that, they would be classified as that in their own codices. Heck, most of these other codices do not even have Chapter Tactics as a connection!

They say pictures are worth a thousand words but to rule lawyers they are not, I feel sorry for GW.

*sigh* A Faction having access to a power doesn't automatically mean every unit in that faction does. Without actual rules (whether it be in a future supplement or an FaQ/Errata) RAW no model in the BA, DA, GK & SW factions can actually generate their powers from the new lores.

We know the factions are probably intended to have at least one model be able to generate from them, but we don't know which as we have no rules saying as such. You can make house rules and arrangements with your opponents, but RAW a BA Librarian or GK Brother-Captain etc etc can't generate powers off of Librarius or Geokinesis any more than my Slaanesh Heralds can generate powers from Biomancy or Divination.

PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)

Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?

Or should I ignore that the same way I am told to ignore this



due to the fact its not specific enough. I think the problem is that you require extreme specifics to agree with things such as reference cards.

GK, BA, SW & DA models aren't part of the Space Marine Faction however. Models from Codex: Space Marines (and those added to it by supplements like FW books and the units added with Angels of Death) have the Space Marine Faction. A Librarian from Codex:BA has the Blood Angels Faction, not the Space Marines Faction.


And you don't ignore the Reference card. The problem is it doesn't tell you what you think it does.

If you think you because of that reference card a GK Brother-Captain can RAW generate powers from Librarius, do you also think RAW a Slaanesh Herald can generate powers from Divination, or that an AM Astropath can generate powers from Pyromancy? The reference card that comes with the main psychic power deck says their respective factions can.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
*sigh* A Faction having access to a power doesn't automatically mean every unit in that faction does. Without actual rules (whether it be in a future supplement or an FaQ/Errata) RAW no model in the BA, DA, GK & SW factions can actually generate their powers from the new lores.

We know the factions are probably intended to have at least one model be able to generate from them, but we don't know which as we have no rules saying as such. You can make house rules and arrangements with your opponents, but RAW a BA Librarian or GK Brother-Captain etc etc can't generate powers off of Librarius or Geokinesis any more than my Slaanesh Heralds can generate powers from Biomancy or Divination.

Exactly. Is it only Mephiston that can access these powers in the Blood Angel codex, or is Mephiston prevented from accessing them while the Librarian can? Njall and Rune Priests? What about all the Unique Characters in Grey Knights as well as the non-Generics?

Speaking of Grey Knights, are the ones who normally cannot generate powers be excluded, or does this reference card now include them and they can ignore their set powers?

It is these questions to which we do not seem to be getting any written answers on, and sadly, just repeating "WHAT'S ON THE CARD?!" (Seven Parody), is insufficient of a proper, inarguable response..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CKO wrote:
PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)

Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?

Chapters how? By fluff, yes. By rules, no. Fluff is not sufficient, otherwise we can Shoot and Charge with Assault Cannons without being Relentless, and if a Blood Angel Tactical Marine moves with his Heavy Flamer, he cannot Shoot it.

There are no Blood Angels Chapter Tactics. There are no Dark Angels Tactics. There are no Grey Knights Tactics. There are no Space Wolves Tactics.

The list of Factions in the rulebooks state:
Adepta Sororitas
Astra Militarum
Blood Angels
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Inquisition
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Tyranids

Space Marines are from Codex Space Marines and officially a different Factions from Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves, and they are all different Factions from each other. The codices also do not state in their rules that they are the same Faction as Codex Space Marines. Indeed, the symbol that they use is not the winged sword skull of the Space Marines, but a winged blood drop, a winged sword, a sword in a book, and a wolf's head. If they are the same Faction, then they would need to have a rule allowing them to take an Allied Detachment with a Space Marine Primary.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And you don't ignore the Reference card. The problem is it doesn't tell you what you think it does.

Its a reference card, it isn't going to give specifics thus the name reference card!

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
If you think you because of that reference card a GK Brother-Captain can RAW generate powers from Librarius, do you also think RAW a Slaanesh Herald can generate powers from Divination, or that an AM Astropath can generate powers from Pyromancy? The reference card that comes with the main psychic power deck says their respective factions can.

It says librarians it doesn't say Brother Captain it says librarians. The answer to your question is librarians it clearly states this, lets read it slowly because if a reference card is difficult I can only imagine two sentences.

Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.

Which unit? Any Librarian with the space marine faction.

Space marine faction? regardless of which chapter

Are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights space marine chapters? yes

Do they have units called librarians? Yes

Its simple to me and if its not simple to you trust me I understand English and pictures is harder than it seems.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
*sigh* A Faction having access to a power doesn't automatically mean every unit in that faction does. Without actual rules (whether it be in a future supplement or an FaQ/Errata) RAW no model in the BA, DA, GK & SW factions can actually generate their powers from the new lores.

We know the factions are probably intended to have at least one model be able to generate from them, but we don't know which as we have no rules saying as such. You can make house rules and arrangements with your opponents, but RAW a BA Librarian or GK Brother-Captain etc etc can't generate powers off of Librarius or Geokinesis any more than my Slaanesh Heralds can generate powers from Biomancy or Divination.

Exactly. Is it only Mephiston that can access these powers in the Blood Angel codex, or is Mephiston prevented from accessing them while the Librarian can? Njall and Rune Priests? What about all the Unique Characters in Grey Knights as well as the non-Generics?

Speaking of Grey Knights, are the ones who normally cannot generate powers be excluded, or does this reference card now include them and they can ignore their set powers?

It is these questions to which we do not seem to be getting any written answers on, and sadly, just repeating "WHAT'S ON THE CARD?!" (Seven Parody), is insufficient of a proper, inarguable response..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CKO wrote:
PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)

Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?

Chapters how? By fluff, yes. By rules, no. Fluff is not sufficient, otherwise we can Shoot and Charge with Assault Cannons without being Relentless, and if a Blood Angel Tactical Marine moves with his Heavy Flamer, he cannot Shoot it.

There are no Blood Angels Chapter Tactics. There are no Dark Angels Tactics. There are no Grey Knights Tactics. There are no Space Wolves Tactics.

The list of Factions in the rulebooks state:
Adepta Sororitas
Astra Militarum
Blood Angels
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Inquisition
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Tyranids

Space Marines are from Codex Space Marines and officially a different Factions from Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves, and they are all different Factions from each other. The codices also do not state in their rules that they are the same Faction as Codex Space Marines. Indeed, the symbol that they use is not the winged sword skull of the Space Marines, but a winged blood drop, a winged sword, a sword in a book, and a wolf's head. If they are the same Faction, then they would need to have a rule allowing them to take an Allied Detachment with a Space Marine Primary.

Just because you guys are being nitpicky and arguing I am going to point out that you didn't list the factions right. You forgot Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, Legion of the Damned, Deathwatch, Khorne Daemonkin, Militarium Tempest just to name a few.

They want the reference card to give them specifics and because it doesn't it is to be ignored!

 CKO wrote:
They want the reference card to give them specifics and because it doesn't it is to be ignored!

No I have read the thread from the beginning I already made my opinion known on that. But we are now arguing minute interpretations of rules with people who don't play with each other and are probably not Referees. If they want details I am making sure they are right on theirs.

Drakka77 wrote:Just because you guys are being nitpicky and arguing I am going to point out that you didn't list the factions right. You forgot Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, Legion of the Damned, Deathwatch, Khorne Daemonkin, just to name a few.

Nope. I did not.

 Charistoph wrote:
The list of Factions in the rulebooks state:

There weren't around when the rulebook was written.

And even if you have an automatically updating ibook, does that really change the point by combining the Factions in question with Deathwatch and Leigon of the Damned?

 CKO wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
If you think you because of that reference card a GK Brother-Captain can RAW generate powers from Librarius, do you also think RAW a Slaanesh Herald can generate powers from Divination, or that an AM Astropath can generate powers from Pyromancy? The reference card that comes with the main psychic power deck says their respective factions can.

It says librarians it doesn't say Brother Captain it says librarians. The answer to your question is librarians it clearly states this, lets read it slowly because if a reference card is difficult I can only imagine two sentences.

Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.

Which unit? Any Librarian with the space marine faction.

Space marine faction? regardless of which chapter

Are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights space marine chapters? yes

Do they have units called librarians? Yes

Its simple to me and if its not simple to you trust me I understand English and pictures is harder than it seems.

1. It says Psykers not Librarians
2. BA, DA, etc. are not part of the space marine faction. Look it up. The BRB page reference has been provided multiple times. "Chapters" from the fluff are not relevant in a rules discussion
3. It says Psykers not Librarians
4. Even if it did say librarians SW do not have any such units.

Well Deathwatch does have a named Librarian, first. Second, the reference card does have that faction on it.

And third They are still factions and by the way I don't know what rule book your reading, because they stopped naming the imperial factions really in 6th. in 7th its Imperial of Man Faction then the various xenos and traitors.

 CKO wrote:
Who can use the new Space Marine psychic powers? I was at a tournament and a Space Wolf player was allowed to use them, can grey knights use them also?

On the GW website when they were selling it it specifically stated space wolfs and GK can take it as well

Drakka77 wrote:
Well Deathwatch does have a named Librarian, first. Second, the reference card does have that faction on it.

And third They are still factions and by the way I don't know what rule book your reading, because they stopped naming the imperial factions really in 6th. in 7th its Imperial of Man Faction then the various xenos and traitors.

And the DW guy still isnt a Psyker of the Space Marines Faction nor does his fluff imply in any way that he should have access to anything but Biomancy.

All imperial factions have their own name, im not sure what youre talking about. The FAQ just made that very relevant again with the Battle brother Transport ruling.

Drakka77 wrote:
Well Deathwatch does have a named Librarian, first. Second, the reference card does have that faction on it.

The Deathwatch Faction, correct, no matter what Chapter he is from, he is still Faction Deathwatch.

Drakka77 wrote:
And third They are still factions and by the way I don't know what rule book your reading, because they stopped naming the imperial factions really in 6th. in 7th its Imperial of Man Faction then the various xenos and traitors.

7th Edition Rulebook is where that list is from. The only time that the Armies of the Imperium is mentioned is in the Allies Rules, not the Factions rule, and even lists it as "Units that have the following Factions". Are you saying you did not actually look Factions up in the Factions section of the rulebook?

 CKO wrote:
It says librarians it doesn't say Brother Captain it says librarians. The answer to your question is librarians it clearly states this, lets read it slowly because if a reference card is difficult I can only imagine two sentences.

Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.

Where are you getting that last quote from? Because from what I can see on the page (link here) it says:

"Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."

Which unit? Any Librarian with the space marine faction.

Space marine faction? regardless of which chapter

Err... no. It says "the Space Marines Faction". Not "any Space Marines Faction, regardless of chapter/including the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Grey Knights Factions".

Space Marines is a separate faction to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Grey Knights.

Are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights space marine chapters? yes

That's not the question, or the point. It doesn't say "any Space Marines chapter". It says "with the Space Marines Faction".

Do they have units called librarians? Yes

Space Wolves do not. Should they miss out?

Its simple to me and if its not simple to you trust me I understand English and pictures is harder than it seems.

It's simple to come to a decision of how you think it should be played. But it's simply wrong to try and claim that the rules actually say the same thing.

Do you own the supplement?

Turn to the page prior to the new terminators, there is an entry that says psychic powers that is where I got the quote from!

 CKO wrote:
Do you own the supplement?

Turn to the page prior to the new terminators, there is an entry that says psychic powers that is where I got the quote from!

I've not got access to my books right now, but I'm happy to take your word for it.

That doesn't answer my other points regarding faction, though. "The Space Marines Faction" does not mean "A Space Marine chapter".

EDIT:

Right, now I see your confusion. As you say, it states "Any Librarian with the Space Marines Faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from..."

As I stated though, that restricts it to Librarians of the "Space Marines Faction". That does not include Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves (who don't even have Librarians) or Grey Knights. They each have their own Faction ("Blood Angels Faction", "Dark Angels Faction" etc.) which is not the Space Marines Faction. When it talks about Chapter it is referring to Chapter Tactics within the Space Marines Faction.

For example, if a Dark Angels Librarian is considered part of the Space Marines Faction it could not be included in the Dark Angels Lion's Blade Strike Force - as we can see from the Lion's Blade Strike detachment's restrictions:

"Only the datasheets listed above can be included in this Detachment, and all units in the Detachment must have the Dark Angels Faction."

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Do you own the supplement?

Turn to the page prior to the new terminators, there is an entry that says psychic powers that is where I got the quote from!

I've not got access to my books right now, but I'm happy to take your word for it.

That doesn't answer my other points regarding faction, though. "The Space Marines Faction" does not mean "A Space Marine chapter".

Its there, but it still only grants access to the disciplines to the Space Marine faction, not eg Grey Knights.
Space Marine faction only includes chapters from vanilla chapters.

No need to call people rules lawyers, guys!

Please stay within the terms of the YMDC forum guidelines and tenets.