93366
Post by: Naaris
New General Special Rules for the Faction
Jump Packs available to all HQs, including named HQs & Lemartes
Artificer armor provide a 2+ / 6++
Blood Angels that take Jump Packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath
Keep Magna Grapple current rules but also return old rule where it can pull enemies closer
All Blood Angels are relentless as well as have Furious Charge
New Wargear
Strangulum - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.
- Available to Elite Infantry, Assault Squads, Bike squads and HQs
Heavy Jump Pack - 50pts per model. +1 Toughness, +1 Wound, Hit and Run, Fleet
- Available to Death Company, Assault Marines, HQ's, Command Squad and Sternguard
- Max 5 HJPs per squad - Max # does not include and IC's or Characters that are in/join the squad. - NEW
Rename Lightning Claws to Blood Talons
Available to all, +1 Str, AP3 Shred
HQ Changes
Libby Dreads can be taken in a conclave
Libby Dread +1 attack, can be Venerable, has 5++, powerfist can be changed for a blood talon, can add magna grapple
Libby Dread 130pts base
Sanguinary priests have no Force Org Slot - can be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a Sargent upgrade
Sanguinor becomes an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW
Techmarine HQ can take a TFC
Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price
Elite Changes
Merge Command Squad and Vanguard Vet Squads - Keep name as Command Squad, give the squad divine intervention. Allow Company champion to take Storm Shield
Command Squad can take Heavy Jump Packs as an upgrade
Give Sternguard Squad the ability to take Jump Packs
Sternguard can take Heavy Jump Packs as an upgrade
Merge Termi squads - Terminators Squad can pick and choose weapons for any role.
Remove Regular Dreadnoughts - Can only make Libby, Furioso or DC Dreadnoughts - Grant the updates to regular codex marine dreadnoughts to the BA variants - increased attacks and squadrons.
Rename Blood Talons to Heavy Blood Talons
BA dreadnoughts gain 3" to all movement with a fast Engine upgrade
Furiosos can pay for WS 6 or Can pay for BS 5 - Can also take all dreadnought shooting options.
DC Dread gains WS5, and Rampage
Lemartes can be taken as an elite choice or added to 1 DC squad
Death Company get Jump Packs for free, can upgrade to Heavy Jump Packs
Death Company get ability for 1 last strike the turn they die
Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)
Death Company can take Gravguns, Plasma Guns, melta guns, and the new Strangulum gun
Death Company Squad size minimum would be 3 - NEW
Sangiunary Guard's death masks grant fear and 1+ to invulnerable saves but cost 10ppm
Sanguinary Guard's Encarmine Axe and Sword function as -
Sword -Str+1 AP2 Melee, Shred, Two Handed, Master Crafted
Axe - Str+3 AP2 Melee, Reaping Swing, Two Handed, Master Crafted - Reaping Swing - On a turn in which a model equipped with thisweapon charges, it strikes at its normal Initiative order in the ensuing combat. In any subsequent rounds of combat, the wielder strikes at the Initiative 1 step.
Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds
Troop Changes
Taking Dante allows troops to take Jump Packs
Fast Attack Changes
Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields
Assault Squads can take Gravguns, Hand Flamers, Infernus Pistols, Plasma Pistols, Plasma Guns, melta guns, and the new Strangulum gun
Assault Squad size minimum would be 3 - NEW
Add Stormtalons and Stormhawks
LOW
Add Updated Sanguinor
Adding Dante allows troops to take Jump Packs
62216
Post by: Griddlelol
You want an army full of W2, T5, Hit and Run, Fleet marines with jump packs, access to storm shields and all melee weapons?
Ok.
93366
Post by: Naaris
If you wanted to do that you'd have 4 units on the table.
5 Death Company with Heavy jump packs and a fun array of weapons would be 400pts or so. so yeah if you wanted to you could.
Good luck!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I guess SW's have that with TWC and Wulfen....so ya...shifting meta's and what not.
71547
Post by: Sgt_Smudge
I disagree with a lot of this. HJP is a bad idea, even at the cost.
The option to take jump packs on all characters is not good - if you want special characters with jump packs, take the ones with jump packs.
Sternguard with jump packs is not a good idea, and certainly has no basis other than to increase power.
Assault Squads at 3 man base has no basis. Nor does having them all with storm shields.
It really does look like you're only focusing on a single aspect of the BA (jump packs) and ignoring how they're actually rather adherent to the Codex Astartes and the various weapons and their uses. You're creating Marines +1 here.
84364
Post by: pm713
I'm pretty sure some of these just rip off space wolves...
11860
Post by: Martel732
Every thread like this will be an absolute disaster until a few items are understood.
1) Marines aren't good. At least base marines. Part of the problem with BA is almost everything is an meq.
2) The only marine heavy weapon that matters is the grav cannon. People bitch and whine, but this is the truth. No grav cannon means the BA basically can't shoot. in 7th ed. Even the multimelta can be replicated by getting a meltagun closer to the target.
3) Tanks suck. Making them fast with imperial weapons that aren't grav cannons doesn't make them not suck.
4) Jump packs are strictly inferior to bikes.
5) 2+ armor is basically garbage unless it is on an MC, in which case it is godly. This trashes several BA hard, making them unable to perform their jobs.
6) Free stuff is one of the main ways vanilla marines are "good". Free stuff doesn't make the units good in a vacuum, only "good" in context of that specific formation, which BA don't have. And even then, we are just turning vanilla marines into the best swarm list. WTF?!?
7) Assault is virtually impossible without insane durability. This goes back to #1. Meqs aren't durable. This makes assaulting with them virtually impossible.
These items make a "fix BA" thread nearly an impossible task without just making them red vanilla marines.
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Post by: Neophyte2012
Naaris wrote:If you wanted to do that you'd have 4 units on the table.
5 Death Company with Heavy jump packs and a fun array of weapons would be 400pts or so. so yeah if you wanted to you could.
Good luck!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I guess SW's have that with TWC and Wulfen....so ya...shifting meta's and what not.
I feels like you use the profile of Thurnder Wolf Mount in formulating your Heaby Jump Pack?
51383
Post by: Experiment 626
Can we change the thread title to something a litter more appropriate? How about, "Make Blood Angels the greatest OP auto-win button army in the entire game"?!
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Post by: pm713
Neophyte2012 wrote:Naaris wrote:If you wanted to do that you'd have 4 units on the table.
5 Death Company with Heavy jump packs and a fun array of weapons would be 400pts or so. so yeah if you wanted to you could.
Good luck!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I guess SW's have that with TWC and Wulfen....so ya...shifting meta's and what not.
I feels like you use the profile of Thurnder Wolf Mount in formulating your Heaby Jump Pack?
He probably did seeing as he ripped off runic armour.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Martel732 wrote:Every thread like this will be an absolute disaster until a few items are understood....
Well some things need to fixed at rulebook level... but how's this?
- Access to a Lib Conclave and Telepathy. Meph can be taken as a Librarian.
- Flyers and Jump Packs can enter from reserves on T1.
- Dreads, Scouts, Terminators, Vanguard to par with SM.
- Death Company FNP improved to 4+ against Overwatch. Upgrade costs brought to par with SM Vanguard.
- Sanguinary Guard can take Storm Shields.
- Tanks can be squadroned. Access to Suppression Force, Armored Task Force, LR Spearhead.
- New Baal Predator Formation, enables Scout move.
- Inferno Pistol to 10pts.
- Access to Grav Cannons.
- Access to Land Speeder Storm.
- One Sang Priest can be be taken outside the FOC for every CAD HQ choice.
- Wings of Sanguinus no longer prevents charging in the same turn. Only eligible targets are Infantry and Jump Infantry.
- All shooting attacks against Sanguinor must be resolved as snapshots. Aura adds +1A, +1S, +1" to charge distance. Attacks become Strength D on a charge of 12". Charge distance is never affected by terrain.
- Rhinos and Razorbacks recieve Overcharged Engines for free. They cannot equip Dozer Blades.
- Augur Triangulation becomes a Chapter Tactic for Tactical Squads and Scout Squads. May be used beginning on T2.
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Post by: pm713
Why should BA get +1 to Seizing?
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Made sense to me as a shock action, blitzkrieg style army.
It's pretty important to get into the enemy's grill before you take too many losses from ranged fire.
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Post by: pm713
You can say that about a lot of armies though. I don't see why BA should have it all the time. Maybe with a character but not all the time.
92121
Post by: Yoyoyo
Fair enough. Removed
62216
Post by: Griddlelol
Why is there an obsession with the infernus pistol? That thing is a pice of gak.
93366
Post by: Naaris
My suggestions were to make them a blizkreig army that has a lot of close combat options and abilities.
The Jump pack is a signature of the army. Relentless and furious charge allows for various builds that let them shoot and assault.
The heavy jump packs give them a new tool to beef-up some units so that they can act TWC or wulfen.
The army lacks grav cannons and centurions because i don't think it fits with their play style to have slow and purposeful units.
Granting relentless with jump packs as well as giving some jump pack oriented units access to grav guns gives BA a mobile grav platform - a 5 man assault marine squad could jump into grav range and drop 15 grav shots on a unit.
Idea behind all of this was to shift the meta of the away from codex marines and into a more unique chapter.
It's boring to move them closer to vanilla marines. They're 1 of 4 standalone marine codexes and should act like it.
Also they are some what codex astartes compliant, but i would argue they have significant differences. Differances that should be highlighted to set them appart from vanilla marines:
- They accept mutation - angel wings, primarch was effectively a mutant.
- They have a number of rituals and strange behaviors that the inquisition would question as heresy.
- The Red Thirst and Black Rage set them apart from vanilla marines. It make them more akin to SWolves.
- They don't adhere to legion numbers because DC are not included.
Ultimately there's a lot of complaining about BA and I'm suggesting that they need to move away from their current semi- standalone / semi-vanilla setup and need to embrace the fluffy play style they're supposed to have.
I could have suggested drop pods with turn 1 assault but people would have completely lost it. Plus that lends itself to many more balance issues.
92121
Post by: Yoyoyo
- Army-wide Relentless (Decurion)
- S6 shooting on Jump Unit, wounds on Initiative, wounds at AP2 on 6's (Warp Spiders)
- Min Troop size of 3 (Scatterbikes)
- D3 HoW (DE Reavers)
- FNP available as Sgt upgrade (Red Scorpions)
- HJP: +1T, +1W, Hit and Run (TWC, White Scars)
- BA Dreads get +3" movement in all phases (Daemon of Slaneesh, but better)
- +1 to Invul Saves (Mark of Tzeentch, but better)
- Sang Guard AP2 at Initiative (Incubi, Lychguard)
BA need some tweaking but a lot of your ideas give the impression of simply cherry picking worthwhile rules from other factions, such as the 6++ save from Runic Armor, or the +1S from Wolf Claws.
So, it's something to be aware of.
103240
Post by: ShieldBrother
As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav  So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
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Post by: Martel732
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.
"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."
This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
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Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.
"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."
This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
Space Wolves can win things can't they? Space Wolves have no grav at all.
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Post by: Martel732
Space Wolves have TWC and Wulfen, two things the BA have no fluff or model justification for having. They also use invis frequently, which BA also have no access to.
BA are codex compliant, and so they most have to win now the way vanilla wins, except they have none of vanilla's tools. BA need the grav cannon, and even then without skyhammer or gladius, BA would still be below average tier.
93366
Post by: Naaris
pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.
"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."
This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
Space Wolves can win things can't they? Space Wolves have no grav at all.
Right cause they have amazing assault units, access to a lot of storm shields, T5 and 2W models. They are fast and can hammer the opponent in close combat.
Everything BA should be doing. But they should be doing it better, based on the fluff.
So Rather than leaving everthing as is and giving them formations, they need a new dex with new tools to get the job done.
Not everyone wants to run a decurion type detachment. I'd think a lot of people would want a dex that can run a cad, one where they can be creative and one with strong internal balance where any unit can be viable.
Hence my suggestions.
And frankly there are only so many special rules so as all armies get "decurions" there's going to be overlap.
84364
Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:Space Wolves have TWC and Wulfen, two things the BA have no fluff or model justification for having. They also use invis frequently, which BA also have no access to.
BA are codex compliant, and so they most have to win now the way vanilla wins, except they have none of vanilla's tools. BA need the grav cannon, and even then without skyhammer or gladius, BA would still be below average tier.
But no grav or "free stuff". So really you're point about "needing grav" isn't true. It's not like you get assault units in DC which can be updated. Assuming what you're saying is actually accurate for everyone.
93366
Post by: Naaris
Thats what's great about Space Wolves, they don't need alies or decurions to be competative.
Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.
Grey Knights will need the same thing. Or do you think GK just need a decurion to be better. I'm sure a lot of GK players would lose their minds if all they got was a "decurion and some formations"
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Post by: Martel732
Does anyone here think that DC really deserve more rules than they already have? I don't. Jump pack meqs just aren't viable in a bike/ TWC/Wraith meta.
BA need the grav because BA are stuck with meqs. And even then, they won't be that good.
Nothing the BA have is viable in a meta sense. That's why a "fix" is much trickier than anyone thinks. Automatically Appended Next Post: Naaris wrote:Thats what's great about Space Wolves, they don't need alies or decurions to be competative.
Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.
Grey Knights will need the same thing. Or do you think GK just need a decurion to be better. I'm sure a lot of GK players would lose their minds if all they got was a "decurion and some formations"
DA are still bitch-slapped by Tau so hard it's not funny.
84364
Post by: pm713
More ways to fix things than adding special rules.
A fix is complicated because people have different ideas of balanced. Automatically Appended Next Post: Naaris wrote:
Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.
"[/quote
Where? The changes I saw were Deathwing and Azrael taking major nerfs. LSV got a little better. Weird objectives that don't really work. How did synergy improve?
93366
Post by: Naaris
Martel732 wrote:Does anyone here think that DC really deserve more rules than they already have? I don't. Jump pack meqs just aren't viable in a bike/ TWC/Wraith meta.
BA need the grav because BA are stuck with meqs. And even then, they won't be that good.
Nothing the BA have is viable in a meta sense. That's why a "fix" is much trickier than anyone thinks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naaris wrote:Thats what's great about Space Wolves, they don't need alies or decurions to be competative.
Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.
Grey Knights will need the same thing. Or do you think GK just need a decurion to be better. I'm sure a lot of GK players would lose their minds if all they got was a "decurion and some formations"
DA are still bitch-slapped by Tau so hard it's not funny.
Martel,
Everyone has a hard counter. Yes. DA and DE are at a severe disadvantage when fighting tau due to the availability of ignore cover.
You'll never have an army that is completely immune to the shenanigans of every other army. There's always a hard counter somewhere.
11860
Post by: Martel732
There is no way to balance Tau and Eldar shooting me off the table without massive, massive changes to everything.
Vanilla marines have turned into a horde list or grav alpha strike list.
SW have Wolfstars.
91128
Post by: Xenomancers
Martel732 wrote:Does anyone here think that DC really deserve more rules than they already have? I don't. Jump pack meqs just aren't viable in a bike/ TWC/Wraith meta.
BA need the grav because BA are stuck with meqs. And even then, they won't be that good.
Nothing the BA have is viable in a meta sense. That's why a "fix" is much trickier than anyone thinks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naaris wrote:Thats what's great about Space Wolves, they don't need alies or decurions to be competative.
Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.
Grey Knights will need the same thing. Or do you think GK just need a decurion to be better. I'm sure a lot of GK players would lose their minds if all they got was a "decurion and some formations"
DA are still bitch-slapped by Tau so hard it's not funny.
They could do with a points decrease.
84364
Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:There is no way to balance Tau and Eldar shooting me off the table without massive, massive changes to everything.
Vanilla marines have turned into a horde list or grav alpha strike list.
SW have Wolfstars.
Can't speak for Tau but with Eldar just make Scatter lasers 15pts and 1 per 3 models. There goes most of the firepower.
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Post by: Martel732
pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:There is no way to balance Tau and Eldar shooting me off the table without massive, massive changes to everything.
Vanilla marines have turned into a horde list or grav alpha strike list.
SW have Wolfstars.
Can't speak for Tau but with Eldar just make Scatter lasers 15pts and 1 per 3 models. There goes most of the firepower.
The model kit has one laser per model. It will never be 1 per 3 again.
A scatterlaser should rightfully cost the same as an assault cannon; ie 20 pts. It is better in practice anyway.
84364
Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:There is no way to balance Tau and Eldar shooting me off the table without massive, massive changes to everything.
Vanilla marines have turned into a horde list or grav alpha strike list.
SW have Wolfstars.
Can't speak for Tau but with Eldar just make Scatter lasers 15pts and 1 per 3 models. There goes most of the firepower.
The model kit has one laser per model. It will never be 1 per 3 again.
A scatterlaser should rightfully cost the same as an assault cannon; ie 20 pts. It is better in practice anyway.
I really don't see why people like that. GW don't give a flying feth about the kits.
Debatable. An Assault cannon gains AP4 and Rending.
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Post by: Martel732
It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
93366
Post by: Naaris
So About that Grav Martel,
Your telling me that a list like this, where the Sang Priests join the Assault Squads and everyone is deep striking in with the detachment rule:
Storm of Angels: You can re-roll failed Reserve Rolls for units in this Detachment with the Deep Strike special rule. In addition, units in this Detachment arriving from Deep Strike Reserve scatter D6" less (normally D6" rather than 2D6").
with this much melta, plasma and grav shots can't compete? I'm starting to wonder if BA even need some updates, aside from getting a decurion etc...  The 4 Command Squads each firing 6 grav shots the turn they DS, from 18 inches away... + 2 Assult squads shooting 5 plasma shots from 12" + 2 grav shots at 18"
That doesn't even cover the troops dropping in with Melta shots, missile and sniper shots from the scouts, 2 predators in the back shooting as well.
+++ New List for Martel (1850pts) +++
++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (BA Baal Strike Force) ++
+ (No Category) +
Relics and Detachment-rules
·· Exterminatus: Archangels [Archangels Strike Force]
+ HQ +
Sanguinary Priest [Additional Weapon, Chainsword, Combi-Grav, Jump pack]
Sanguinary Priest [Additional Weapon, Chainsword, Combi-Grav, Jump pack]
+ Elites +
4 X Command Squad [Jump Packs]
·· Veteran [Chainsword, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
·· Veteran [Chainsword, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
·· Veteran [Chainsword, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
+ Troops +
2 X Scout Squad [Missile Launcher, 4x Scouts, 3x Sniper Rifle]
·· Scout Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Sniper Rifle]
2 X Tactical Squad [Meltagun, 4x Tactical Marine]
·· Drop Pod [Deathwind Missile Launcher]
·· Tactical Sergeant [Chainsword, Combi-Melta]
+ Fast Attack +
2 X Assault Squad [4x Assault Marines, Jump Packs, 2x Plasmagun]
·· Assault Sergeant [Chainsword, Plasma Pistol]
+ Heavy Support +
2 X Predator [Autocannon, Heavy Bolters]
The problem with the faction is still the lack of quality blitzing and blazing fast units that rock CC. I suppose my fixes are still valid. All BA really can do is some mobile average shooting.
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Post by: Martel732
Regular grav guns are extremely pedestrian.
It takes 20 BS4 grav gun shots to down a Stimtide with no nova charge. With nova charge, this bloats to 41(!) shots.
The regular grav guns suffers worse against the WK. While is still takes 20 BS 4 grav gun shots to down a WK with no shield, it would only take 15 grav cannon shots, which is only a single cent squad.
The storm shields you included would help a lot vs intercepting IAs, but they will still kill enough to make it so you don't get enough grav shots to even kill a single riptide. So no, this is not competitive.
The firepower coming from the preds, the assault squads and tactical squads is basically negligible. The same units would have the same problems for vanilla marines, but they'd have free transports and they'd all be obj sec.
"with this much melta, plasma and grav shots can't compete?"
Go look at a Tau or Eldar list and tell me how many shots this really is. SW will run over the entire list with a single TWC unit. And none of these units can actually beat a Riptide in CC.
84364
Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
"in my mind" this seems to be why I almost never agree with you. Warp Spiders are also costly and their OPness is based entirely on terrain. Try a game without LOS blocking terrain. It nerfs Spiders and according to you doesn't help much anyway. What elements can't you deal with apart from a WK?
If the rules were based on kits Space Wolves wouldn't have flamers and melta guns seeing as all they have is a plasma gun in the kit.
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Post by: Martel732
pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules. The assault cannon is actually overcosted garbage compared to the scatterlaser, and it really boils down to 1) platforms and 2) range.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
"in my mind" this seems to be why I almost never agree with you. Warp Spiders are also costly and their OPness is based entirely on terrain. Try a game without LOS blocking terrain. It nerfs Spiders and according to you doesn't help much anyway. What elements can't you deal with apart from a WK?
If the rules were based on kits Space Wolves wouldn't have flamers and melta guns seeing as all they have is a plasma gun in the kit.
I'll take a bunch of scatterlasers and you can have a bunch of assault cannons. We'll see who wins. It won't be you.
Warp spiders are still quite good in the open because of virtual immunity to templates. And jumping out of double tap range. That list that was posted above? They can easily flicker out of the range of deep striking grav guns. 9" range sucks.
LOS blocking terrain helps a lot against shooting lists that are penalized for moving. Tau and Eldar aren't those lists.
BA have no answers for Warp spiders, scatterbikes, wave serpents, or WKs. Moving down to the next tier of units, they are still difficult for BA because our firepower sucks and the return firepower is withering. Warp spiders being considered "costly" is a big lol with terminators in the game.
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Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules. The assault cannon is actually overcosted garbage compared to the scatterlaser, and it really boils down to 1) platforms and 2) range.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
"in my mind" this seems to be why I almost never agree with you. Warp Spiders are also costly and their OPness is based entirely on terrain. Try a game without LOS blocking terrain. It nerfs Spiders and according to you doesn't help much anyway. What elements can't you deal with apart from a WK?
If the rules were based on kits Space Wolves wouldn't have flamers and melta guns seeing as all they have is a plasma gun in the kit.
I'll take a bunch of scatterlasers and you can have a bunch of assault cannons. We'll see who wins. It won't be you.
Warp spiders are still quite good in the open because of virtual immunity to templates. And jumping out of double tap range. That list that was posted above? They can easily flicker out of the range of deep striking grav guns. 9" range sucks.
LOS blocking terrain helps a lot against shooting lists that are penalized for moving. Tau and Eldar aren't those lists.
BA have no answers for Warp spiders, scatterbikes, wave serpents, or WKs. Moving down to the next tier of units, they are still difficult for BA because our firepower sucks and the return firepower is withering.
They're expensive T3 3+ jet infantry. They aren't massively hard to kill without BLOS terrain.
Then you'll be happy to not use any of it then.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
AP4 and Rending are great against 4+ units and 2+ units without layered saves.
Scatterbikes : 3+, 4+ Jink
Warp Spiders : 3+, Flickerjump
Wraithknight : 3+, potential 5++, FNP
Riptide : 3+, 5++, potential FNP
Stormsurge : 3+, 4++, FNP
Necrons : 3+ or 4+, 3++ on Wraiths, 4+ Reanimate
Gladius : 3+, AV11
Daemons : 5++, can be improved
Wolfstar : 3+, 3++, potential 4+ FNP
There aren't a lot of popular 4+ units, though. It's pretty much just Warriors, and you definitely don't want to park a tank within 24" of them.
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Post by: Martel732
Yoyoyo wrote:AP4 and Rending are great against 4+ units and 2+ units without layered saves.
Scatterbikes : 3+, 4+ Jink
Warp Spiders : 3+, Flickerjump
Wraithknight : 3+, potential 5++, FNP
Riptide : 3+, 5++, potential FNP
Stormsurge : 3+, 4++, FNP
Necrons : 3+ or 4+, 3++ on Wraiths, 4+ Reanimate
Gladius : 3+, AV11
Daemons : 5++, can be improved
Wolfstar : 3+, 3++, potential 4+ FNP
There aren't a lot of popular 4+ units, though. It's pretty much just Warriors, and you definitely don't want to park a tank within 24" of them.
You never can mass up enough shots to make it great, though. No one gives a feth about one or two assault cannons, which is how they always come for the Imperium. Assault cannons suck vs 2+ armor, because you can never roll enough rends to matter. You need to fire two assault cannons to average a single rend. Yippee. Show me who's boss. The assault cannon happens to be a good with the Gladius because the razorbacks were free. But that's free stuff being good, not the assault cannon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules. The assault cannon is actually overcosted garbage compared to the scatterlaser, and it really boils down to 1) platforms and 2) range.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
"in my mind" this seems to be why I almost never agree with you. Warp Spiders are also costly and their OPness is based entirely on terrain. Try a game without LOS blocking terrain. It nerfs Spiders and according to you doesn't help much anyway. What elements can't you deal with apart from a WK?
If the rules were based on kits Space Wolves wouldn't have flamers and melta guns seeing as all they have is a plasma gun in the kit.
I'll take a bunch of scatterlasers and you can have a bunch of assault cannons. We'll see who wins. It won't be you.
Warp spiders are still quite good in the open because of virtual immunity to templates. And jumping out of double tap range. That list that was posted above? They can easily flicker out of the range of deep striking grav guns. 9" range sucks.
LOS blocking terrain helps a lot against shooting lists that are penalized for moving. Tau and Eldar aren't those lists.
BA have no answers for Warp spiders, scatterbikes, wave serpents, or WKs. Moving down to the next tier of units, they are still difficult for BA because our firepower sucks and the return firepower is withering.
They're expensive T3 3+ jet infantry. They aren't massively hard to kill without BLOS terrain.
Then you'll be happy to not use any of it then.
They're hard to kill when you have the old Imperial heavy weapons and a low model count. What's efficient to shoot at them that you would have in a TAC list?
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Post by: pm713
You don't even need heavy weapons. By my standards pretty much everything in the list.
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Post by: Martel732
pm713 wrote:You don't even need heavy weapons. By my standards pretty much everything in the list.
A typical eldar list will cut that list to pieces.
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Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:You don't even need heavy weapons. By my standards pretty much everything in the list.
A typical eldar list will cut that list to pieces.
Depends what you consider typical doesn't it? Where I am it will be fine against Eldar for a mix of reasons.
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Post by: Martel732
I'm talking about the ba not holding back and the eldar not holding back. Best possible tac lists for each army. Discussing anything else is meaningless. I should have said typical eldar net list.
Sw will have a good laugh, too.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
Naaris wrote:Right cause they have amazing assault units, access to a lot of storm shields, T5 and 2W models. They are fast and can hammer the opponent in close combat.
Everything BA should be doing. But they should be doing it better, based on the fluff.
So Rather than leaving everthing as is and giving them formations, they need a new dex with new tools to get the job done.
Not everyone wants to run a decurion type detachment. I'd think a lot of people would want a dex that can run a cad, one where they can be creative and one with strong internal balance where any unit can be viable.
Hence my suggestions.
And frankly there are only so many special rules so as all armies get "decurions" there's going to be overlap.
Regardless of what you're doing and how effective it'll be, you're still basically building a BA codex from the skeleton of a SW one. The BA have more in common with a Codex Compliant chapter than the Space Wolves. Seriously, the fluff reflects this. They follow the Codex's doctrines regarding formation, size, tactics - their traditional deviations are Sanguinary Priests (basically Apothecaries) all troops being able to be equipped with jump packs and a Death Company. That's literally it. Instead, you butcher the fluff, add unprecedented equipment and create gear that doesn't make sense (why does only BA artificer armour grant a 6++?) BA are not about being T5, or having Storm Shields, or having 2W. They NEVER have. They are about jump packs, fire, blood, and being a surgical swift angelic blade. Reduce the scatter on their deep strike, grant them a psuedo-Jink save as a Chapter Tactic when using jump packs. Relentless on infantry is a bad idea - well done, now you have Devastators sprinting up the table. That is not a BA trait. Lightning Claws are not a BA thing, far more a Raven Guard one. All SM should have Decurions - you are not forced to use them, but they should exist. Why should they not? Perhaps look into the HH rules for the BA. They have got them rather spot on, IMHO (barring a few cases).
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Post by: ShieldBrother
Martel732 wrote: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.
"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."
This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
Where did you get the notion that you can't win without grav or free stuff? Do you by chance literally only play at tournaments? Not every game is triple tide spam, and even if it is it's not like wolves will succeed too well either. "B-But TWC!" At best they've got a 3++ inv. Definitely not impossible to get through, even with t5 and 2 wounds if you think such firepower is so easily accessible.
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Post by: pm713
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:Martel732 wrote: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.
"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."
This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
Where did you get the notion that you can't win without grav or free stuff? Do you by chance literally only play at tournaments? Not every game is triple tide spam, and even if it is it's not like wolves will succeed too well either. "B-But TWC!" At best they've got a 3++ inv. Definitely not impossible to get through, even with t5 and 2 wounds if you think such firepower is so easily accessible.
Actually based on what Martel has said in the past he does actually only play in tournament level games.
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Post by: Desubot
Im disappointed in the lack of vampire bat rider cavalry.
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Post by: ShieldBrother
Then he should at least acknowledge not everyone does, and stop complaining that the army HE chose in HIS meta isn't standing up to the big dogs when he fully well knew his BA wouldn't pull their weight against uber-competitive lists.
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Post by: Desubot
To be fair IIRC he had Blood angels for a LONG time and isnt some new army he picked up.
as is the case with a lot of people that end up getting shafted from the true problem with the game which is codex power creep. which is more now like a power sprint.
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Post by: pm713
 Desubot wrote:Im disappointed in the lack of vampire bat rider cavalry.
That idea is just batty.
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Post by: ShieldBrother
And they wouldn't even have to make more models!
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Post by: Martel732
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:Then he should at least acknowledge not everyone does, and stop complaining that the army HE chose in HIS meta isn't standing up to the big dogs when he fully well knew his BA wouldn't pull their weight against uber-competitive lists.
I'm not complaining this thread as much as pointing out how complicated a fix is. Automatically Appended Next Post: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:Martel732 wrote: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.
"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."
This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
Where did you get the notion that you can't win without grav or free stuff? Do you by chance literally only play at tournaments? Not every game is triple tide spam, and even if it is it's not like wolves will succeed too well either. "B-But TWC!" At best they've got a 3++ inv. Definitely not impossible to get through, even with t5 and 2 wounds if you think such firepower is so easily accessible.
A lot of things work in twc's favor vs tau. IA doesn't double out twc and that's through a 3++. Hymp is the biggest threat.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Martel732 wrote:You never can mass up enough shots to make it great, though. No one gives a feth about one or two assault cannons, which is how they always come for the Imperium.
True. But nobody cared much about Scatterlasers either, when they were an auxiliary weapon on a platform like a Wave Serpent or a Falcon.
Martel732 wrote:Assault cannons suck vs 2+ armor, because you can never roll enough rends to matter. You need to fire two assault cannons to average a single rend.
Meh. It's better than not having Rending. Pointing 3-4 free Razorbacks at a Terminator Squad will remove them in 2 shooting phases.
It's really the cost of the platform. Like you mentioned, free Razorbacks help a lot. Just not for BA.
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Post by: Martel732
Scatterlasers have been OP since they were introduced. There just have been a lot more limiting factors. But I had a friend that still crushed in 5th ed using the 4th ed eldar codex by spamming scatterlasers before it was cool. The range was ALWAYS a huge advantage. He's use Eldrad to fortune scatterwalkers in ruins which was crazy good back in 5th. Mass S6 has always been devastating.
I agree about the razorbacks, but we are back to free stuff making marines good, not the actual unit entries. Although grav devs ARE good. But BA get neither free razors nor grav devs.
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Post by: kryczek
The BA have always been great their codex not so much some time's.
I actually think the fix for our BA's is really simple and we should stick to what we know. By that I mean that I would supplement us and remove all of the C:SM stuff and just let them use the formation's etc in C:SM but also keep the current list of stuff they don't get, Ironclad, thunder-fire Cannon's, Centurion's, hunter's etc. This one simple change whilst making them a supplement will resolve a lot of simple issue's in a heart beat. Point's discrepancies and access for our devastator's to grav-cannon's that are in the kit but we can't use are all fixed in one fell swoop. Although even I do think gladius should be DP only for the BA if they use it as their transports have fast and even I'm not that mental to suggest that fiasco from happening as it's bad enough already.
That's 80+%? of the codex/army list fixed and after all we are a codex compliant-ish chapter. This may not be Ideal to many but I think this is the best we can hope for for a long time. This alone could probably lift BA straight into the fair fight ground rather than the whipping league's where they have been for 7th ed pretty much and that's even without any tweak's to our own unique units like dread attack's.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Martel732 wrote:Scatterlasers have been OP since they were introduced. There just have been a lot more limiting factors.
Yeah that's how games are balanced.
Scatterlasers being out of control has everything to do with 3-man Jetbike units. It's not like the very similar IG Multilaser can leverage the same advantages, and I don't think that's just a ROF issue. Meanwhile Warp Spiders are also bonkers with a S6 weapon, even with 12" range.
Scatterwalkers ARE good, but they're not anywhere near the major Eldar power units. I get the point you're trying to make but you are overdoing it just a tad.
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Post by: Martel732
They were much better under the 5th ed vehicle rules, trust me. And 5th ed lists suffered against 10+ scatter lasers just as 7th ed suffers vs 20+ scatter lasers. Let me be clear: there weren't enough limiting factors on the weapon. It has always been too accessible in the Eldar codex, it's just much worse now.
The statline for the weapon itself is broken, and even more broken with the hull point system.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
I know you're stubborn, and I know you hate Eldar, but c'mon man. Right now in 7th:
Eldar Scatterlaser : 36" Heavy 4, S6 AP6
Guard Multilaser : 36" Heavy 3, S6 AP6
It's pretty much the same weapon. It's not broken for IG. So how is the problem the statline? Isn't Eldar supposed to have advanced technology and firepower, after all?
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Post by: ShieldBrother
To be fair though the eldar one has an extra shot and higher BS using it. And it's very dependent on the platform using it, a chimera and jetbike are very different.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Eldar platforms are obnoxiously undercosted, especially when you're stacking free special rules on top of that. Scatterlasers used to have Laser Lock, they've already been toned down quite a bit.
BA really is overdue for the usual 7.5 special rules treatment.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Yoyoyo wrote:Eldar platforms are obnoxiously undercosted, especially when you're stacking free special rules on top of that. Scatterlasers used to have Laser Lock, they've already been toned down quite a bit.
BA really is overdue for the usual 7.5 special rules treatment.
The ONLY things BA readily needs are;
1. Their basic options & rules brought into line with the newer Marine books... hence, A4 Dreadnoughts, WS/BS4 Scouts, Grav Cannon (though the amp needs to go and die in a fire!), access to Telepathy, updated formations, 'Bloodcurion', etc...
2. Some of their unique wargear to become a bit more relevant...
The Glaive Encarmine for example, is currently a worse Power Sword. For something that's supposed to be a unique BA relic blade, it's laughably unplayable, hence, why not give it +1S to help compensate for the fact it's still a two-handed (and thus no +1A bonus) ap3 ccw?
Master-crafted alone is not enough of a reason to give-up the +1A bonus for 2ccw's - especially when abilities like Prescience exist.
Likewise, if a single-handed axe is +1S, then a double-handed axe should ideally be +2S!?
Their psychic lore could likewise do with a significant boost, (though it's still nowhere near the levels of steaming poop that the CSM god lores are...)
Make 'Descent of Angels' part of their basic Chapter Tactics alongside Furious Charge.
It doesn't need a lot of added work overall, the big issue is simply that BA's are part of the 7.0 designs, while 'Crons/Vanillas/ DA's/Eldar/Tau/Wolves are now all of the much stronger 7.5 designs.
It's not like BA's are CSM levels of suckage and massive overhauling.
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Post by: Martel732
BA are arguably worse than csm atm.
Your suggested "fixes" do very little to address the fundamental problems.
You don't understand how miserably useless sg are in 7th ed.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
I mean, you can argue BA are worse than CSMs.
You'd be wrong though.
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Post by: Dantes_Baals
Can you make a BA list people will roll their eyes at? I cant. 15 years behind BA, but nope. I certainly can with CSM and I've been running them less than 2.
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Post by: AutomatedMiner
What's next, give necrons 2+ FNP? This gak is ridiculous
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Post by: Experiment 626
Well, this entire sub forum at least proves that while GW aren't exactly anything close to geniuses at game balance, they're still about 1000x better than your average 40k player!
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Post by: Martel732
Experiment 626 wrote:
Well, this entire sub forum at least proves that while GW aren't exactly anything close to geniuses at game balance, they're still about 1000x better than your average 40k player!
No, they really aren't. Nothing in this subforum is scatterbike good.
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Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:
Well, this entire sub forum at least proves that while GW aren't exactly anything close to geniuses at game balance, they're still about 1000x better than your average 40k player!
No, they really aren't. Nothing in this subforum is scatterbike good.
Which is a good thing.
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Post by: Martel732
pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:
Well, this entire sub forum at least proves that while GW aren't exactly anything close to geniuses at game balance, they're still about 1000x better than your average 40k player!
No, they really aren't. Nothing in this subforum is scatterbike good.
Which is a good thing.
Not exactly. It's the prisoner's dilemma. Until something is as good as a scatterbike, the Eldar will trample all over everyone. The Wolfstar works, because it is basically immune to everything in the game, which isn't good either. BA have no Wolfstar and no scatterbike, so any proposal that people deem "reasonable" just makes them a victim again.
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Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:
Well, this entire sub forum at least proves that while GW aren't exactly anything close to geniuses at game balance, they're still about 1000x better than your average 40k player!
No, they really aren't. Nothing in this subforum is scatterbike good.
Which is a good thing.
Not exactly. It's the prisoner's dilemma. Until something is as good as a scatterbike, the Eldar will trample all over everyone. The Wolfstar works, because it is basically immune to everything in the game, which isn't good either. BA have no Wolfstar and no scatterbike, so any proposal that people deem "reasonable" just makes them a victim again.
That's only if your in a weird meta where people only play the most OP thing they can and don't have the basic decency to tone things down for weaker armies.
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Post by: Martel732
They don't know they are playing a weaker army.
If people are toning down, then codex strength doesn't matter.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
I think a lot of 40k's issues also stem from its format.
If you have an experienced organizer creating lists for both players that suit the mission and dictating houserules, game quality improves. Did we really need an official ruling to fix the Dread attacks? It's just common sense.
I'd almost favor tournament play that revolves around pre-selected units and only leaving upgrades to the players. Narrow formats make sense for competition -- too much freedom requires a lot of active management or it devolves into a mess.
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Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:They don't know they are playing a weaker army.
If people are toning down, then codex strength doesn't matter.
So you don't talk to people in any way before games.
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Post by: Bharring
GW added Scatter bikes to the game once.
This forum has many suggestions that would break the game worse than Scatter bikes, throughout different threads.
GW is bad at rules. The average Proposed Rule is worse.
That's one of the points of the discussion. By hammering out and iterating on the ideas, we see the problems or tone down the out-there ideas.
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Post by: Martel732
pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:They don't know they are playing a weaker army.
If people are toning down, then codex strength doesn't matter.
So you don't talk to people in any way before games.
Lists are constructed and THEN opponents assigned. You can talk all you want, but you can't change your list. Automatically Appended Next Post: Bharring wrote:GW added Scatter bikes to the game once.
This forum has many suggestions that would break the game worse than Scatter bikes, throughout different threads.
GW is bad at rules. The average Proposed Rule is worse.
That's one of the points of the discussion. By hammering out and iterating on the ideas, we see the problems or tone down the out-there ideas.
And Riptides.
And Stormsurge.
And TWC.
And Wulfen.
And Gladius.
And Warp Spiders.
I see nothing in here that even touches these units/rules.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Martel732 wrote:
And Riptides.
And Stormsurge.
And TWC.
And Wulfen.
And Gladius.
And Warp Spiders.
I see nothing in here that even touches these units/rules.
What stops the TO from restricting these units, if it makes a better game for all sides?
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Post by: Bharring
In defense of GW rules writers, I'm fairly sure it was Marketing, not them, who wrote Gladius.
GW could certainly do better.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
It's a business. But there's nothing wrong with making your own choices as a player.. We're in "Proposed Rules" after all!
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Post by: Martel732
Bharring wrote:In defense of GW rules writers, I'm fairly sure it was Marketing, not them, who wrote Gladius.
GW could certainly do better.
Gladius is more fun to fight than the rest of the lot, because I don't die by turn 3.
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Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:They don't know they are playing a weaker army.
If people are toning down, then codex strength doesn't matter.
So you don't talk to people in any way before games.
Lists are constructed and THEN opponents assigned. You can talk all you want, but you can't change your list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:GW added Scatter bikes to the game once.
This forum has many suggestions that would break the game worse than Scatter bikes, throughout different threads.
GW is bad at rules. The average Proposed Rule is worse.
That's one of the points of the discussion. By hammering out and iterating on the ideas, we see the problems or tone down the out-there ideas.
And Riptides.
And Stormsurge.
And TWC.
And Wulfen.
And Gladius.
And Warp Spiders.
I see nothing in here that even touches these units/rules.
Sounds like it's your specially made hell meta again really.
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Post by: Martel732
Not really. Allowing list tailoring doesn't help BA at all, since BA have no effective options to begin with. Secret list, tailored list, it doesn't really matter.
If you play with people that will play down to a codex, then codex strength is no longer a relevant issue at all.
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Post by: locarno24
Okay..... then start from basic principles.
What makes Blood Angels Blood Angels - rather than just marines painted red?
I've no particular issue with them having access to a Gladius Strike Force, Grav-cannons, etc, etc - they are, broadly speaking, a codex chapter (certainly closer than the Wolves) - but if the answer was just to turn them into a subset of codex marines, it's a bad answer.
The thing that's become their signature is jump pack assault infantry - the angelic (sanguinary guard) and the bezerk (death company) and everything in between.
At the moment, jump pack infantry is basically target practice, because as noted the firepower of a Windrider host, or War Convocation, or similar, will cut you to shreds before you get close - it'll be at least one shooting phase, probably two, plus overwatch, which is enough to decimate a marine squad. Add to the fact that you don't get jink or a toughness boost (like bikes) and you end up hurting badly.
So what would be needed to let assault squads actually make it into contact without losing too many models?
Well, the signature ability of jump pack troops (compared to bikes) is Deep Strike.
There are three options you can add - either
a) improve your durability when landing from interceptor, the following shooting phase and/or overwatch. This increases the number of models who make it in.
b) improve the effectiveness of deep strike by reducing scatter and/or allowing assault directly from deep strike
c) improve the 'shock damage' on the charge - improving hammer of wrath, the charge bonus, or both.
Taking example cases, imagine a formation which resulted in an assault squad being able to deep strike in automatically turn 1 without scatter, only being allowed to be shot at by snap shots until their following player turn, gaining a 2+ cover save until their following player turn, and being able to charge immediately and rerolling to hit and to wound.
I think that's probably a bit too good. Because that's essentially "I pass a reserve roll and remove one of your units" but that was a deliberately over-the-top idea. So some sort of toned down version must at some point pass the 'acceptably good but not excessive' band.
At the same time.....it is (depressingly) not a million miles from the 'assault marine' half of the skyhammer formation.
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Post by: Bharring
Would the problem be more Wind riders and War Convocation than ASMS not being good?
That and bikes mostly being ASM+1 right now.
If BA were brought closer to UM SM - grav, cents, BS4 scouts, etc - they would probably need less love.
As a starting point, their CT is effectively:
+Sang Guard, Priests
+Baall vehicles
+DC
+Infurnus/HF
+FC
Now, that's a lot of "plusses" as in differences. Much of that seems to suck, though.
Perhaps Baall vehicles cost too much for too little.
Perhaps Infurnus and HF aren't worth much.
Their ASM, however, seem to be better than anyone but RG (another ASM focused chapter) due to FC. And RGS benefit fits better for them, FC fits better for BA.
So their ASMS are arguably better. They can do ASMS job better. The problem is that ASMS are in such a bad place that that even ASM+1s are useless.
Make ASMS useful again by balancing the game, and BAs would be a good CT.
Also, give them the Codex Astartes stuff. Both fluff and balance says they should have it.
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Post by: Experiment 626
BA's don't need Cents - those guys are slow as mud and don't fit into a 'fast angelic' themed army at all...
WS/BS4 Scouts + Land Speeder Storms's, Grav cannons & the Stormtalon? Absolutely BA's deserve those.
But Centurions need to go burn in a car fire, especially since they're really just 'Obliterators x100' in every way. (God damned thieving Imperials - we can't have any unique toys anymore, can we?!)
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Post by: Martel732
Even centurions aren't THAT great. It's invisible centurions that are great. Grav cannons aren't THAT great, skyhammer grav cannons and grav cannons riding in free Rhinos are.
" Much of that seems to suck, though."
And that is why it's almost impossible to "fix" BA under the current system. Will it get better in 8th ed? I'm not holding my breath. I'm not even looking for "great". I'm looking for "one unit of TWC doesn't kill my entire list".
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Post by: Charistoph
Experiment 626 wrote:BA's don't need Cents - those guys are slow as mud and don't fit into a 'fast angelic' themed army at all...
WS/BS4 Scouts + Land Speeder Storms's, Grav cannons & the Stormtalon? Absolutely BA's deserve those.
But Centurions need to go burn in a car fire, especially since they're really just 'Obliterators x100' in every way. (God damned thieving Imperials - we can't have any unique toys anymore, can we?!)
Devastators of either type as well as any type of Scouts do not fit the Templar scheme that was developed in Codex: Armageddon and their 4th Edition codex, yet, they are there for them now. That leaves that as a poor excuse.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:
Well, this entire sub forum at least proves that while GW aren't exactly anything close to geniuses at game balance, they're still about 1000x better than your average 40k player!
No, they really aren't. Nothing in this subforum is scatterbike good.
Which is a good thing.
Not exactly. It's the prisoner's dilemma. Until something is as good as a scatterbike, the Eldar will trample all over everyone. The Wolfstar works, because it is basically immune to everything in the game, which isn't good either. BA have no Wolfstar and no scatterbike, so any proposal that people deem "reasonable" just makes them a victim again.
That's only if your in a weird meta where people only play the most OP thing they can and don't have the basic decency to tone things down for weaker armies.
So people should not run good lists because GW can't balance properly?
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Post by: Martel732
"So people should not run good lists because GW can't balance properly?"
Yes, that's always the apologists' position.
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Post by: pm713
Why don't you see a difference between the absolute best thing possible and good?
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Post by: Martel732
pm713 wrote:Why don't you see a difference between the absolute best thing possible and good?
I guess why should players settle for good? Most games have a "best" thing. But good games make that best thing not face-rolling good.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Martel732 wrote:I guess why should players settle for good? Most games have a "best" thing. But good games make that best thing not face-rolling good.
Did you see the "Start Collecting Showdown" thread in the Tactics forum Martel? The balance mechanism is reduced box contents -- not points, not FOC selection. So far it's been surprisingly even.
40k players are making a choice every time they select the format, and it's not always equal. Armies don't play the same at 500, 1000, 1850pts. I think you have to acknowledge that, even at the same time you acknowledge GW's balance efforts leave a lot to be desired.
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Post by: Martel732
Yoyoyo wrote:Martel732 wrote:I guess why should players settle for good? Most games have a "best" thing. But good games make that best thing not face-rolling good.
Did you see the "Start Collecting Showdown" thread in the Tactics forum Martel? The balance mechanism is reduced box contents -- not points, not FOC selection. So far it's been surprisingly even.
40k players are making a choice every time they select the format, and it's not always equal. Armies don't play the same at 500, 1000, 1850pts. I think you have to acknowledge that, even at the same time you acknowledge GW's balance efforts leave a lot to be desired.
Of course I acknowledge that. Taking away choices, especially overpowered ones, does usually make balance much closer. But there is no point value at which BA can do anything to Eldar.
84364
Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Why don't you see a difference between the absolute best thing possible and good?
I guess why should players settle for good? Most games have a "best" thing. But good games make that best thing not face-rolling good.
You have something resembling a soul?
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Post by: Martel732
In practice, that's not usually the way gamers roll. At least in my experience. In DnD, broken combos are sought after and celebrated. Same goes with card games. 40K rules writers just don't care.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
pm713 wrote:Why don't you see a difference between the absolute best thing possible and good?
I'm the kind of person that uses Tyberos. For fun. If I can't acknowledge he's bad, though, it's my own fault and I deserve to lose more than win.
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Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:In practice, that's not usually the way gamers roll. At least in my experience. In DnD, broken combos are sought after and celebrated. Same goes with card games. 40K rules writers just don't care.
In my experience that the minority by a long shot. Find new people?
I don't blame them. If I was one of them I wouldn't either.
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Post by: Gravewalker
Alot of base gameplay needs reworking before we can have effective assault oriented armies like Blood Angels in 7th Ed. GW has made it so darn hard to get into assault. Especially since my gaming group has been Eldar and Tau
.. so ya :(
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