It's been a long time since I have posted anything on this site (Years infact), but I've always been lurking. In the past 4-5 years I've observed an immense increase in snarkiness, passiv-agressivness, outright vitriol and much more in terms of toxic behaviour, not only towards GW but also towards other members. It is not my place to tell anyone how they should behave anywhere and it is not what I want. Rather, I'd like to discuss if other people have had the same observation.
The reason for this topic being so dear to me, is the fact that Dakka was my first introduction to an online tabletop community. It is saddening to me that such an increase in vile behaviour has happened. There are other members of Dakka that have left the site for good because of precisely such behaviour. I myself have long since migrated to Bolter and Chainsword, not only because I prefer the content but also because I feel the atmosphere to be much friendlier and less jaded. This is not meant as a personal attack or insult towards anyone, it is just my very own observation.
Am I just seeing things that aren't there? What are your opinions and expiriences?
Welcome to the internet, its like this just about everywhere and has only increased as time passes.
I still think Dakka is pretty civil as long as you avoid 40k and politics. Of course this is what most people browse dakka for I guess so who knows, I love the painting, news, and minor community sections.
Try browsing /tg/ sometime, dakka really isnt that bad all things considered.
The internet as a whole is generally cynical, aloof and passive-aggressive and DakkaDakka is no exception. But thankfully our mods are pretty good so conversations tend to be more civil.
However, if you want genuine excitement and displays of love for the hobby check out the painting forums. It's worlds apart from the 40k forums.
I was just musing to myself how much more peaceful and less aggressive Dakka was these days, it was certainly a lot more vitriolic, to me anyway, back in the days when I first joined. I have also been told that it was far more like The Old West before I came aboard.
The noise vs signal is much higher now though, can't be helped I guess with the growth of the forum.
The Observer wrote: Am I just seeing things that aren't there? What are your opinions and expiriences?
I have similar thoughts to you about the unnecessary snark on here (though I am guilty of providing it as well at times), but I think that negativity has always been here.
When I first got back into 40k in 2009 I tried to get a friend of mine to join Dakka with me and he was adamantly against it. He cited the site as being hostile and full of angry people. I of course ignored him and here I am, but I think the site has always had a reputation for being a bit... "prickly" in terms of user posted content.
I am also of the opinion that when a new member joins and they are excited to be a part of the community they overlook a lot of the negative aspects of the site because they are engrossed in the positive aspects that the site has to offer. There is a lot of great information shared on here, a lot of helpful members who can advise on modeling, game strategies etc., but there are also a fair number of grumpy, nit-picky people who can make reading the site a chore.
I've scaled back my participation on the site because my enthusiasm has waned and the noise to signal ratio as MGS suggests bothers me more and more.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Try browsing /tg/ sometime, dakka really isnt that bad all things considered.
LOL, if /tg/ is the yardstick upon which we measure ourselves then we are all doomed!
Its more that people are more hypersensitive these days. Robust discussion is frowned on, now.
"Unnecessary snark"? How does that even compute?
Back in the day, Dakka was a open firefight in a snake pit. THESE days? Its really turned around into something Akin to your local game shop, where you'd go down and bull!@#$ around with your friends and like minded people..
Some people have a little more gas in the tank on some subjects, me included. But in the whole of the site, You can't get much better.
As for Bolter and Chainsword, YMMV... I didn't, and still don't, like the atmosphere there.
essentially world going to hell in a handbasket and with the added vitriol of the current political climate in the UK and the US (where many members are from) it does not help to create a pleasent atmosphere.
Its more that people are more hypersensitive these days. Robust discussion is frowned on, now.
"Unnecessary snark"? How does that even compute?
Your post is a pretty good example, actually. In it you imply I am hypersensitive (while also painting anyone who disagrees with you with the wide brush of hypersensitivity) while also implying that snide, sarcastic remarks are to expected to the point where calling them unnecessary doesn't "compute" for you.
Just because we are posting electronically and not having a discussion face-to-face doesn't mean we need to be dicks to one another. Having a contrary opinion doesn't make one hypersensitive or afraid of robust discussion. There is plenty of polite, robust discussion on these forums.
The urge to immediately jump down someone's throat when they take a dissenting opinion is what I think The Observer is getting at (correct me if I am wrong), and that seems to be encouraged more here than on other forums.
Not everyone wants to come to a hobby forum and engage in a gun fight. Some people just want to relax and talk about toy soldiers.
Tbh I haven't really noticed a particular hostile community on dakkadakka - however, I have only been part of the community since February so I might not be experienced enough to comment. However, you have to be careful when talking about things like this because I feel that on most of the forums there is just a lot of discussion, to be fair even some of the more heated discussions seem to be quite civil to me. However, this is the internet so you will get some not very nice people but that's life I think
MrMoustaffa wrote:
I still think Dakka is pretty civil as long as you avoid 40k and politics. Of course this is what most people browse dakka for I guess so who knows, I love the painting, news, and minor community sections.
Try browsing /tg/ sometime, dakka really isnt that bad all things considered.
Interesting points and I do have to agree that the painting sections I still frequent quite often, but as mentioned below, if we measured everything by /tg/ we wouldn't get anywhere.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I was just musing to myself how much more peaceful and less aggressive Dakka was these days, it was certainly a lot more vitriolic, to me anyway, back in the days when I first joined. I have also been told that it was far more like The Old West before I came aboard.
The noise vs signal is much higher now though, can't be helped I guess with the growth of the forum.
I suppose growth does have its side-effects. Nice to see that others engage in similar thoughts.
DarkTraveler777 wrote:
The Observer wrote: Am I just seeing things that aren't there? What are your opinions and expiriences?
I have similar thoughts to you about the unnecessary snark on here (though I am guilty of providing it as well at times), but I think that negativity has always been here.
When I first got back into 40k in 2009 I tried to get a friend of mine to join Dakka with me and he was adamantly against it. He cited the site as being hostile and full of angry people. I of course ignored him and here I am, but I think the site has always had a reputation for being a bit... "prickly" in terms of user posted content.
I am also of the opinion that when a new member joins and they are excited to be a part of the community they overlook a lot of the negative aspects of the site because they are engrossed in the positive aspects that the site has to offer. There is a lot of great information shared on here, a lot of helpful members who can advise on modeling, game strategies etc., but there are also a fair number of grumpy, nit-picky people who can make reading the site a chore.
(...)
Good points and I suppose that must be my case too, simply overlooking stuff in favour of the 'new and positive'. Now that you mention, I too know people who have permanently turned their backs on this site, precisely because they perceive it as, the way you put it, 'pricky'. Again, the actual tabletop work and wip sub-forums are amazing, I just feel that most stuff outside of it has become a jaded minefield.
Grot 6 wrote:Your post is two years too late.
Its more that people are more hypersensitive these days. Robust discussion is frowned on, now.
"Unnecessary snark"? How does that even compute?
Could you please elaborate on why my post is too late? I do not fully understand what you mean by it.
I would heavily argue against people in general being hypersensitive these days and robust (Although I do have to admit that I do not fully understand what you mean with this preface) discussion certainly isn't frowned upon. It is more, as far as I can tell, that people seem to not understand the point of a discussion. Rarely it is an exchange of opinions and an actual discourse between people, but much more an attempt of one side trying to force its opinion as the right or superior one in comparison to the other. Think about the several discussions about gender-stereotypes we had in the past. People were aloof and passiv-aggressiv from the beginning. The aim was not to discuss this topic and there was certainly no attempts to actually try and understand points made by both sides. Note that I do not think that one of them is right and the other is wrong, they both have valid points! People just seemed to try and push their opinion down other people's throats without actually entertaining the idea of the opposition actually having some kind of validity.
As such I would say that discussion is not frowned upon but that some people do not discuss things, rather they present their opinions as something superior and right from the get-to-go and this then causes vitriol, aggressivity and similar.
'unnecessary snark', to me, is the expression of an opinion/point/fact/whatyouhave with superfluous arrogance and derision towards the other person/party/faction. To put it bluntly: you can have an opinion and you can be a about it. It is the expression of a lack of respect towards the people you are having a talk/discussion with and the incapability to attribute any kind of merit to their opinion, which I would argue is the wrong way of tackling a discussion. Unnecessary snark is what turned the aforementioned gender-stereotypes discussions into a deplorable cesspit, as both sides were unwilling to face the other side as an equal and valid opinion.
Asterios wrote:essentially world going to hell in a handbasket and with the added vitriol of the current political climate in the UK and the US (where many members are from) it does not help to create a pleasent atmosphere.
Its more that people are more hypersensitive these days. Robust discussion is frowned on, now.
"Unnecessary snark"? How does that even compute?
Your post is a pretty good example, actually. In it you imply I am hypersensitive (while also painting anyone who disagrees with you with the wide brush of hypersensitivity) while also implying that snide, sarcastic remarks are to expected to the point where calling them unnecessary doesn't "compute" for you.
Just because we are posting electronically and not having a discussion face-to-face doesn't mean we need to be dicks to one another. Having a contrary opinion doesn't make one hypersensitive or afraid of robust discussion. There is plenty of polite, robust discussion on these forums.
The urge to immediately jump down someone's throat when they take a dissenting opinion is what I think The Observer is getting at (correct me if I am wrong), and that seems to be encouraged more here than on other forums.
Not everyone wants to come to a hobby forum and engage in a gun fight. Some people just want to relax and talk about toy soldiers.
^ posted for example of exactly the point I was making..
As I said, Dakka's like going to your FLGS, and grabbing a box of figs and talking to mates.
Take it down a notch, chief. No one was even answering or even thinking about you.
In case you need me to spell it out for you I wrote what I meant, and meant what I wrote. Dakka was worse 2 years ago.
These days it is better in terms of content, relative discussion, and information exchange, it is 100% better, and the posters and information are excellent.
WHERE in the world do you even equate my post with a response to you? I don't even understand your unacceptable correlation.
Its more that people are more hypersensitive these days. Robust discussion is frowned on, now.
"Unnecessary snark"? How does that even compute?
Back in the day, Dakka was a open firefight in a snake pit. THESE days? Its really turned around into something Akin to your local game shop, where you'd go down and bull!@#$ around with your friends and like minded people..
Some people have a little more gaqs in the tank on some subjects, me included. But in the whole of the site, You can't get much better.
As for Bolter and Chainsword, YMMV... I didn't, and still don't, like the atmosphere there.
Here is my response, Take it or leave it.... I'm not playing.
Thank you for clarifying Grot 6.
Interesting that your expirience from two years ago is different than mine, but then again I was not actively participating in discussions, so there is that.
I also don't think that DarkTraveler777 really took it that personal but rather used "I" and "you" as proxies in his response to explain what any reader (That encompases "me" and "you" too) might infer from your way of phrasing things. Please do correct me if I am wrong.
Here is my response, in case it was cut and pasted into some other peoples unnecessary social justice warrior fake indignation and didn't read it the first time.
This is exactly what I mean though. Why do you feel the need to assault anyone's responses in such a way? What does this discussion gain from it but another point from which to stage more and more insults?
Even though I am not a mod and do not feel like telling you what to do and what not, I would still like to kindly ask you to leave these kind's of respones and phrases outside of this thread as I do not think that t contributes in any meaningful or even healthy way to our discussion. Thank you
Its more that people are more hypersensitive these days. Robust discussion is frowned on, now.
"Unnecessary snark"? How does that even compute?
Your post is a pretty good example, actually. In it you imply I am hypersensitive (while also painting anyone who disagrees with you with the wide brush of hypersensitivity) while also implying that snide, sarcastic remarks are to expected to the point where calling them unnecessary doesn't "compute" for you.
Just because we are posting electronically and not having a discussion face-to-face doesn't mean we need to be dicks to one another. Having a contrary opinion doesn't make one hypersensitive or afraid of robust discussion. There is plenty of polite, robust discussion on these forums.
The urge to immediately jump down someone's throat when they take a dissenting opinion is what I think The Observer is getting at (correct me if I am wrong), and that seems to be encouraged more here than on other forums.
Not everyone wants to come to a hobby forum and engage in a gun fight. Some people just want to relax and talk about toy soldiers.
^ posted for example of exactly the point I was making..
As I said, Dakka's like going to your FLGS, and grabbing a box of figs and talking to mates.
Take it down a notch, chief. No one was even answering or even thinking about you.
In case you need me to spell it out for you I wrote what I meant, and meant what I wrote. Dakka was worse 2 years ago.
These days it is better in terms of content, relative discussion, and information exchange, it is 100% better, and the posters and information are excellent.
WHERE in the world do you even equate my post with a response to you? I don't even understand your unacceptable correlation.
Well for starters your post immediately followed mine, and was not quoting any other posts to indicate that you were actually responding to someone else. Also, your post followed a good 30 minutes after mine, so you can't pass it off as a case of us both posting simultaneously.
That is why I assumed you were referring to my post. Sorry if by doing so I pissed in your cornflakes. Perhaps you should opt out of this conversation since it is causing you distress.
The urge to immediately jump down someone's throat when they take a dissenting opinion is what I think The Observer is getting at (correct me if I am wrong), and that seems to be encouraged more here than on other forums.
Definitely not.
The 'Yellow Triangle' is conveniently placed on every post on the site - if there's something in a post that's against the rules, please report it.
This is a big, busy place - and we rely on our members to help keep it friendly.
Any time people have a passion for something, it overrides logic; KickStarter has shown us many, many examples of this. Dakka has many passionate people, and thus sometimes their logic fails miserably and they act like buffoons.
All the same, that passion is what's going to drive something forward; be it a new product, a new technique or a new viewpoint. You learn who's passions align with yours and follow them. You learn who you disagree with and find things they don't like. It's much more useful than everyone being overly polite and trying their utmost to ensure that nobody is offended. Sometimes to take in the whole horizon from within the balloon, you have to put up with a bit of hot air.
Again, who are you exactly reffering to? Why use terminology that you know can be offensive to people?
I do not want to direct how you, or anyone for that matter, responds, so do please refrain from making such baseless allegations. What I did was simply ask you to try and not be derogatory towards me or anyone in this thread. I asked you because I actually wanted to have a sensible discussion with you and not a slag-fest (Your links were actually pretty helpful, thanks for that.).
Second of all, I for my part am not offended, I simply want to have a civil discussion with you Grot 6. In what manner did I offend you? Honestly, if I did I would like to apologize, but for that you'd have to clearly state what was it that offended you, instead of going back and forth editing your posts and insulting people.
I am very sorry if you do not wish to continue this discussion and, by all means, feel free to report what you see fit, but at least try and stay civil.
Edit: Saw the warning after posting this Alpharius, if something is out of line, I apologize and will alter accordingly.
It's been a long time since I have posted anything on this site (Years infact), but I've always been lurking. In the past 4-5 years I've observed an immense increase in snarkiness, passiv-agressivness, outright vitriol and much more in terms of toxic behaviour, not only towards GW but also towards other members.
That is your overall observation and opinion, I would not refute that but it does make one want to reply with snark... I like to think of myself as being reasonable but I have had the MODs talk to me a couple times when engaging in "lively" debate with people (I thought) long on opinion and short on facts.
It has been good for me and hopefully for others such as yourself.
You pointed out a few trigger topics and I am sure you know where certain threads are going to go, like this one which is a doozy of a title.
Since you like to "lurk" I would suggest you tune into the threads that are less controversial and I think it will be a more positive experience.
I guess it is "Don't go looking for trouble because you will find it."
It is not my place to tell anyone how they should behave anywhere and it is not what I want. Rather, I'd like to discuss if other people have had the same observation.
I may not be the crowd you are looking for.
I can say a few decades back posting on BBS's before the days of the Web, toxic behavior was worse by a long shot (Hmm better hang out at 4chan to be sure...).
Mainly because choices were few but we as a user base were also few.
Now, we have many more voices out there but we are more spoiled for choice as well (as you pointed out) so there is some dilution.
There may be less of a feeling of commitment to a community which would allow for bad manners.
I would hazard a guess that being less known here, but being more involved in B&C it may be a self-reinforcing thing: you are known there and more involved so it feels more "like home" than here.
The reason for this topic being so dear to me, is the fact that Dakka was my first introduction to an online tabletop community. It is saddening to me that such an increase in vile behaviour has happened. There are other members of Dakka that have left the site for good because of precisely such behaviour. I myself have long since migrated to Bolter and Chainsword, not only because I prefer the content but also because I feel the atmosphere to be much friendlier and less jaded. This is not meant as a personal attack or insult towards anyone, it is just my very own observation.
I would throw my hat into the ring and hazard that this group tends to be a fairly critically minded bunch.
I cannot just say some statement like "GW is the BEST!!" and not have people ask on what criteria I base that claim.
I do not expect a group hug but there is some comradery to be had and you do eventually find some "favorite" folk you like to see.
Am I just seeing things that aren't there? What are your opinions and expiriences?
My opinion: a good site, well moderated, will slap you down when you need it and when we can stay on topic (Rule #1!!) it can get pretty interesting.
The lows: the occasional people who act like they are an authority with no facts to offer, ridicule or dismiss the person and in the end find people "tiring" or "amusing".
Aside from these people that are very occasional, the majority here I find supportive and rather civil and on occasion terribly funny.
Good luck!
I kind of feel like this might be the case. Perhaps it hasn't changed but just seems more toxic so after spending more time at a forum with a different vibe.
I've only been a member for 2 years longer (2010 vs 2012) but I just don't feel like it's gotten much (if any) more toxic. I think Dakka -like the interwebs at large- has always had it's share of doufuses, but they do seem to be less numerous and better patrolled here than many other places.
I agree that there are places that are more genteel and more heavily moderated, like Lead Adventure (where I also post) and much less so like Frothers (where I do not).
However, Dakka has always seemed to me to be lively but not obscene, and that's part of why I've stuck around.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I was just musing to myself how much more peaceful and less aggressive Dakka was these days, it was certainly a lot more vitriolic, to me anyway, back in the days when I first joined. I have also been told that it was far more like The Old West before I came aboard.
The noise vs signal is much higher now though, can't be helped I guess with the growth of the forum.
Dakka was horrible to me when I first started, to the point where I threw out a few models thinking of how bad they where.
I posted a model, the very first one I ever painted and owned, posted it and said what do people think. The term you killed a 50$ model and trash and a few other insults where thrown around. Then I removed the model felt like crap then the topic kept going on aulting because I was too much of a .... To take the abuse.
Several weeks later I converted a model titled this model, then people chimmed in if the model fell out of someones ass or melted in the microwave.
Needless to say I toughened up since then and I still see some dakka memebers who where part of that crowd on here now. But the mods are alot better and ban for abuse but not all, check out the topic raptordread 3 pages of insults.
I found Dakka to be a cess pool of hatred, that special kind of rudeness where the writer thinks they're just being a "straight shooter" (in actuality just a cheap cover for ignoring social conventions of politeness), and elitism.
Generally, most of those people are still around. However, I've improved my Dakka experience greatly by refusing to engage. If someone posts a thread asking for other peoples' opinions or experiences, I respond and move on. I don't go back and look to see if anyone argued with my opinion or called me a boob.
If I post a thread asking for advice or feedback, I try to be crystal clear about what I'm looking for. (Specifically in tactics threads, where the most common response to "how can I build a list around unit X?" seems to be "Unit X is rubbish, army X is rubbish, play Eldar instead."
By limiting the possibility of being a victim of the toxic behavior of other folks, I find most of my exposure to that behavior disappears.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I was just musing to myself how much more peaceful and less aggressive Dakka was these days, it was certainly a lot more vitriolic, to me anyway, back in the days when I first joined. I have also been told that it was far more like The Old West before I came aboard.
The noise vs signal is much higher now though, can't be helped I guess with the growth of the forum.
Dakka was horrible to me when I first started, to the point where I threw out a few models thinking of how bad they where.
I posted a model, the very first one I ever painted and owned, posted it and said what do people think. The term you killed a 50$ model and trash and a few other insults where thrown around. Then I removed the model felt like crap then the topic kept going on aulting because I was too much of a .... To take the abuse.
Several weeks later I converted a model titled this model, then people chimmed in if the model fell out of someones ass or melted in the microwave.
Needless to say I toughened up since then and I still see some dakka memebers who where part of that crowd on here now. But the mods are alot better and ban for abuse but not all, check out the topic raptordread 3 pages of insults.
What this thread? The one entitled "Grimgor Ironhide" where you explicitly state this is your first model?
Which, by the time of posting was also one of your first models, where again the criticism offered, if a little direct, is still constructive and essentially encouraging?
I don't know what your agenda would be in trying to portray yourself as a victim of the generally really supportive painting community on the site, but it's demonstrably false and a matter of public record.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I was just musing to myself how much more peaceful and less aggressive Dakka was these days, it was certainly a lot more vitriolic, to me anyway, back in the days when I first joined. I have also been told that it was far more like The Old West before I came aboard.
The noise vs signal is much higher now though, can't be helped I guess with the growth of the forum.
Dakka was horrible to me when I first started, to the point where I threw out a few models thinking of how bad they where.
I posted a model, the very first one I ever painted and owned, posted it and said what do people think. The term you killed a 50$ model and trash and a few other insults where thrown around. Then I removed the model felt like crap then the topic kept going on aulting because I was too much of a .... To take the abuse.
Several weeks later I converted a model titled this model, then people chimmed in if the model fell out of someones ass or melted in the microwave.
Needless to say I toughened up since then and I still see some dakka memebers who where part of that crowd on here now. But the mods are alot better and ban for abuse but not all, check out the topic raptordread 3 pages of insults.
What this thread? The one entitled "Grimgor Ironhide" where you explicitly state this is your first model?
Which, by the time of posting was also one of your first models, where again the criticism offered, if a little direct, is still constructive and essentially encouraging?
I don't know what your agenda would be in trying to portray yourself as a victim of the generally really supportive painting community on the site, but it's demonstrably false and a matter of public record.
No it was about 10 years ago, not that comment he was nice .
when I first started sculpting when I was I say 14 ish. Dakka was still new. I never had any real problems since then tho.
like Dark Traveler said, i come here to talk about my passion for the hobby, not get in an internet gunfight...
i have really, really been put off posting here since February, because posts about what i like are met with personal attacks time and time again...
it takes any enjoyment out of posting...
even reading posts has become too much, most of the time...
i never noticed so much vitriol in the past...
i've been a member for ten years, and in my experience, Dakka has never been worse than it is now...
i am not here to win a debate, but to have a nice conversation among a global community that enjoys painting toy soldiers...
having to argue every single point of minutia is so tiring, i would rather just not bother...
it is sad really...
after ten years of enjoyment, i am on the brink of just walking away from here...
as a regular on B&C, CMON, and WAMP, i have to say that i have never had any negative experiences on those sites, but on here, the negative outweighs the positive by a large margin over the last year...
funny enough, in person, every Dakka member that i have met have been wonderful to hang out and chat with...
almost as if the anonymity of the internet engenders a lot of trash talking that people wouldn't dare engage in face to face...
it has been great to meet up outside of the forums, and act like actual decent human beings
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I was just musing to myself how much more peaceful and less aggressive Dakka was these days, it was certainly a lot more vitriolic, to me anyway, back in the days when I first joined. I have also been told that it was far more like The Old West before I came aboard.
The noise vs signal is much higher now though, can't be helped I guess with the growth of the forum.
Dakka was horrible to me when I first started, to the point where I threw out a few models thinking of how bad they where.
I posted a model, the very first one I ever painted and owned, posted it and said what do people think. The term you killed a 50$ model and trash and a few other insults where thrown around. Then I removed the model felt like crap then the topic kept going on aulting because I was too much of a .... To take the abuse.
Several weeks later I converted a model titled this model, then people chimmed in if the model fell out of someones ass or melted in the microwave.
Needless to say I toughened up since then and I still see some dakka memebers who where part of that crowd on here now. But the mods are alot better and ban for abuse but not all, check out the topic raptordread 3 pages of insults.
What this thread? The one entitled "Grimgor Ironhide" where you explicitly state this is your first model?
Which, by the time of posting was also one of your first models, where again the criticism offered, if a little direct, is still constructive and essentially encouraging?
I don't know what your agenda would be in trying to portray yourself as a victim of the generally really supportive painting community on the site, but it's demonstrably false and a matter of public record.
No it was about 10 years ago, not that comment he was nice .
when I first started sculpting when I was I say 14 ish. Dakka was still new. I never had any real problems since then tho.
haha I remember that death to ultra smurfs.
So, you posted your first model, then, some 6 years or so later, posted it again? On a different account?
Or was this your other first model? You know, the one that.. wasn't?
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I was just musing to myself how much more peaceful and less aggressive Dakka was these days, it was certainly a lot more vitriolic, to me anyway, back in the days when I first joined. I have also been told that it was far more like The Old West before I came aboard.
The noise vs signal is much higher now though, can't be helped I guess with the growth of the forum.
Dakka was horrible to me when I first started, to the point where I threw out a few models thinking of how bad they where.
I posted a model, the very first one I ever painted and owned, posted it and said what do people think. The term you killed a 50$ model and trash and a few other insults where thrown around. Then I removed the model felt like crap then the topic kept going on aulting because I was too much of a .... To take the abuse.
Several weeks later I converted a model titled this model, then people chimmed in if the model fell out of someones ass or melted in the microwave.
Needless to say I toughened up since then and I still see some dakka memebers who where part of that crowd on here now. But the mods are alot better and ban for abuse but not all, check out the topic raptordread 3 pages of insults.
What this thread? The one entitled "Grimgor Ironhide" where you explicitly state this is your first model?
Which, by the time of posting was also one of your first models, where again the criticism offered, if a little direct, is still constructive and essentially encouraging?
I don't know what your agenda would be in trying to portray yourself as a victim of the generally really supportive painting community on the site, but it's demonstrably false and a matter of public record.
No it was about 10 years ago, not that comment he was nice .
when I first started sculpting when I was I say 14 ish. Dakka was still new. I never had any real problems since then tho.
haha I remember that death to ultra smurfs.
So, you posted your first model, then, some 6 years or so later, posted it again? On a different account?
Or was this your other first model? You know, the one that.. wasn't?
It was my first after I dont know... 5 years..... I had some hard years there for a while, until I met my gf who asked what I liked and we went to a GW and so on and so on. Then came my first model the chaos lord crushing ultra smurfs. My original first model when I was god knows when back when GW gave away 2 free models. A dwarf and a goblin, I painted them with some paints I found my my used that where half dry.
But if you want a play by play
goblin
dwarf
emperors champion I posted here then felt so sad threw it out.
Chaos sorcs converted to be half horse half man, very badly done first green stuff I ever used.
Then after many years got my gf now wife and started to paint and posted my first model, the chaos lord crushing ultra smurf
There may have been a couple I did before that but that was the first one I was proud of.
soo grumpy and attacky.
On a side note for the poster above me when I am negative I try to be more fun and happy about it. I hate the new AoS wood people but I think my post was more comical with negative rather then being mean negative.
From my time here is say Dakkkadakka as a whole hasn't changed, but the people being toxic has. I've noticed it's usually just a few specific users who generally burn like a match and then fizzle out. Some have stopped posting altogether, while others have calmed down and continue to contribute to the community in other ways. It's also funny how sometimes users can be toxic in some threads, but if you follow their post history you see they can be constructive in other parts of the forum. Or at least not as negative.
I also feel as Dakkadakka has expanded beyond 40k all day every day you see any vitriol spread more about the forum. News and Rumors and Off Topic are where they all can congregate and create the false impression of constant negativity(especially if you stick to certain threads and don't flit about a variety of topics).
Overall I really enjoy the site, and use it to keep up to date on everything from finding new(to me) miniatures from different companies, politics(ha!), painting and basing techniques, terrain ideas, tactics, and even upcoming movies. You just have to remember to be objective when you come across a spate of negativity, and also realize it'll dissipate and vanish like it never happened in a week's time.
I don't necessarily see toxicity, just a few people that think they're in the right to dictate how people should model/paint/play their miniature games. Its like it somehow personally insults them when someone enjoys the hobby in a different way than they do.
Just look towards all the psychotic OCD when it comes to drilling out barrels. "YOU DIDNT DRILL OUT YOUR BARRELS LIKE MEEEEEE???? YOU'RE LAZY!!!!!"
Or if you like a certain model that the hivemind has considered 'bad and shouldn't exist because it wasn't it 5th ed.' than your opinion is irrelevant because you aren't as old and crotchety as everyone. Excuuuuuuuuse me for having a different opinion when it comes to aesthetics. I'm sorry that I like a futuristic jet fighter from the year 40,000 that you deemed 'not aerodynamic'.
People need to understand that there are different kinds of wargamers in this hobby and not everyone is an anal-retentive ITC world champion golden demon award winner like yourself.
On the whole, I've found Dakka to be one of the most pleasant places to post online. But I avoid certain areas, because I'm just not looking for that level of conversation or debate.
P&M is usually amazingly friendly, supportive and helpful, as are the other creative areas - games, fiction, hell even list making.
I think sometimes it's what someone brings with them, as well. I see a few topics now and then that are set up ready to cause problems, but it's not always deliberate. Sometimes a poster has a thought and doesn't articulate it, and boy does that cause more problems than it's worth.
I think any topics can turn toxic.. some things do bring out the trolls though..
Don't help most people can be uncountable for their comments via the internet.
But game stores also have their toxic level too; I seen game systems die out just
because of the gamers associated with the game.. If you are not having fun playing
the game.. most people will stop..
Few years back the gaming group that ran the 40k games at the FLGS made if very difficult in
Games / tournaments if you were not a member, People stopped playing and stopped attending
the tournaments.. I guess that is what they wanted since the store owner always supported
game with good prizes no matter what the head count.
And I hate the comment now .. Just do a "social contract" with the person..
That means you are being over nice to the person being a jerk.. but giving them one
more try to act like a human being..
And I hate the comment now .. Just do a "social contract" with the person..
That means you are being over nice to the person being a jerk.. but giving them one
more try to act like a human being..
I've seen justification for game store jerkoffs in the ever popular 'but he was just trying to HELP you get better at the game/painting!'
If you really want to "help" someone
A: don't make the assumption that you know better than a complete stranger
B: don't pretend to know whats in his best interests. he doesn't want to buy a certain model? he wants to use a certain model? THATS HIS DECISION
C: don't assume people need your advice. unless they are visibly distraught over losing or painting than keep it to yourself
D: I get that us nerds tend to be on a wide range of the socially awkward spectrum, but take the time to learn how to phrase your words. If you can learn how to metagame a tournament than a little research into social skills isn't above your ability either
There's not really an excuse to be rude to someone just because you disagree with how they're playing a game. And not even a game, just their own decisions about their own army they bought and painted.
Don Savik wrote: Just look towards all the psychotic OCD when it comes to drilling out barrels. "YOU DIDNT DRILL OUT YOUR BARRELS LIKE MEEEEEE???? YOU'RE LAZY!!!!!"
It really says a lot about you that you have to resort to straw man arguments to make your point. I have never seen that kind of all-caps rage post about drilling out barrels. I have, however, seen much more reasonable posts pointing out the fact that barrels that aren't drilled out look bad and are an easy problem to fix. Perhaps you are confusing "criticism" with "toxic behavior"?
Or if you like a certain model that the hivemind has considered 'bad and shouldn't exist because it wasn't it 5th ed.' than your opinion is irrelevant because you aren't as old and crotchety as everyone. Excuuuuuuuuse me for having a different opinion when it comes to aesthetics. I'm sorry that I like a futuristic jet fighter from the year 40,000 that you deemed 'not aerodynamic'.
I suspect that this another case of "someone doesn't agree with me and dared to say so" rather than a legitimate problem. If you can't handle people telling you that they disagree with your opinions about aesthetics then maybe you shouldn't post on a discussion forum?
I have only been posting for a few months, although I lurked for longer. I find Dakka in the middle. Most people here are helpful, constructive, and enthusiastic.
Do not forget two of the tenets of being human (and I include myself in this of course):
First, we each consider ourselves intelligent, therefore, when we come to conclusion C about facts A, B and F, we assume that is the conclusion any intelligent person will come to. When some one doesn't...we make assumptions. Most of us (humans) recognize this type of bias and counter it by accepting that someone else can come to a different conclusion and still be correct or intelligent. The worst of us, have an innate an unchangeable belief that we are "right" and therefore attack difference, and defend opinions. This is called "Right" fighting, and we all fall into it at times. I suspect this is what leads to toxic posting more often than not.
Second, we as human beings are all insecure in some form or way, even if it does not show and we are unaware. This insecurity leads some to seek justification and encouragement, while it leads others to demean in a sub conscious attempt to boost their own standing or self worth (This is one of the accepted causes of bullying of all natures among psychologists)
The internet allows both of these behaviors to run rampant, as the first finds a much larger audience to seek acceptance from (likes on FB is my biggest example of this) while anonymity gives the second behavior a perfect outlet.. (These are only two of the many many ways insecurity controls our actions of course, and I am not here to claim I am an expert, just someone who has observed and studied people professionally for 30+ years.)
I do not think these comments are new to most of you of course, just stating my opinion in regards to the topic.
Last, I enjoy Dakka, I love the P and M sections, and have felt welcomed in it. I am a tabletop level painter and converter, and have never felt attacked for that level (or lack of) skill.
It really says a lot about you that you have to resort to straw man arguments to make your point. I have never seen that kind of all-caps rage post about drilling out barrels. I have, however, seen much more reasonable posts pointing out the fact that barrels that aren't drilled out look bad and are an easy problem to fix. Perhaps you are confusing "criticism" with "toxic behavior"?
Whether or not you like the look of drilled barrels is entirely subjective. Just because more people voted yes on that poll doesn't mean that people who didn't vote yes are wrong for not drilling barrels. Yes I exaggerated and used a strawman. There is frustration to be found when people are completely dismissing so many people's hard work based off one meaningless detail. Please tell me what it says about it me more while you're at it. I come into a thread more suited to vent my frustration and it seems to have followed me here. I literally said there wasn't toxicity as much as there is bickering over minutia. And look what we're doing now. I'm not confusing anything here.
Peregrine wrote: I suspect that this another case of "someone doesn't agree with me and dared to say so" rather than a legitimate problem. If you can't handle people telling you that they disagree with your opinions about aesthetics then maybe you shouldn't post on a discussion forum?
You think I can't handle people having a different opinion to my own? Please make more rash assumptions based off a single post I made in an article disagreeing with you, because thats so clearly morally superior than using a strawman. It wasn't even a discussion about whether or not it looked good, I was making a point saying that you shouldn't cut an entire production line based on your own preferences without taking into account others. Both opinions should be looked at.
I don't care that people don't agree with me. I don't care what people spend their money on and they shouldn't care what I spend my money on. Its a hobby, do whatever you like. Why come into a thread about people discussing their bad experiences with rude persons just to make assumptions that I'm some thin-skinned whiner who couldn't take your 'criticism'? There's irony there I think.
It really says a lot about you that you have to resort to straw man arguments to make your point. I have never seen that kind of all-caps rage post about drilling out barrels. I have, however, seen much more reasonable posts pointing out the fact that barrels that aren't drilled out look bad and are an easy problem to fix. Perhaps you are confusing "criticism" with "toxic behavior"?
Whether or not you like the look of drilled barrels is entirely subjective. Just because more people voted yes on that poll doesn't mean that people who didn't vote yes are wrong for not drilling barrels. Yes I exaggerated and used a strawman. There is frustration to be found when people are completely dismissing so many people's hard work based off one meaningless detail. Please tell me what it says about it me more while you're at it. I come into a thread more suited to vent my frustration and it seems to have followed me here. I literally said there wasn't toxicity as much as there is bickering over minutia. And look what we're doing now. I'm not confusing anything here.
Could please post a link to a thread where people dismiss someone's work just because the barrels aren't drilled? And this is a discussion forum not a personal blog. If you start making straw man arguments about critics you should expect some kind of criticism yourself.
Peregrine wrote: I suspect that this another case of "someone doesn't agree with me and dared to say so" rather than a legitimate problem. If you can't handle people telling you that they disagree with your opinions about aesthetics then maybe you shouldn't post on a discussion forum?
You think I can't handle people having a different opinion to my own? Please make more rash assumptions based off a single post I made in an article disagreeing with you, because thats so clearly morally superior than using a strawman. It wasn't even a discussion about whether or not it looked good, I was making a point saying that you shouldn't cut an entire production line based on your own preferences without taking into account others. Both opinions should be looked at.
I don't care that people don't agree with me. I don't care what people spend their money on and they shouldn't care what I spend my money on. Its a hobby, do whatever you like. Why come into a thread about people discussing their bad experiences with rude persons just to make assumptions that I'm some thin-skinned whiner who couldn't take your 'criticism'? There's irony there I think.
Clearly you do since you made multiple posts complaining about people who hold different views than you do. I mean, people who don't care don't typically make lengthy replies.
I came here from D&D forums - originally, just to keep up with 40K future releases - which had their own meltdown during the 4E D&D era. I believe that AoS has become a similar point of contention that is the culmination of a lot of negativity towards game manufacturers - GW especially. Its also had the positive effect that it seems a lot of people who now congregate here wish to discuss other game systems that have gained a market share.
Unfortunately, its also generated quite a few disgruntled comments from folks migrating from one system to another. As well as a few champions of specific systems and companies.
Overall, I don't find the forums any more negative than other forums I have visited. There are always the few who will criticize others for their own reasons; that is what the ignore button is for. However, I personally find the majority to be pleasant, far more intelligent that myself and generally well-reasoned. It is a pleasure to be in their midst to discuss the hobbies and lifestyles we share. And they don't seem to mind my (more than) occasional disgruntlement with certain aspects of the gaming scene.
Don Savik wrote: Whether or not you like the look of drilled barrels is entirely subjective.
Yes, just like everything about painting and modeling. People give criticism about subjective things they think could be better, that's how a painting and modeling forum works. I have no idea why you think that criticism of un-drilled barrels is somehow "toxic behavior".
Please tell me what it says about it me more while you're at it.
It says that you care more about ranting at imaginary enemies than having a constructive discussion. If you want to get anywhere in this thread (or anywhere else, really) you need to deal with the people that actually exist, not the rabid pro-drilling attack dogs of your imagination.
You think I can't handle people having a different opinion to my own?
It sure seems like it given that you felt the need to post in a thread about "toxic behavior" and complain about how someone told you that 40k aircraft aren't realistic enough. For someone who can handle different opinions this is a non-issue, as they'd respond with their opinions about how 40k aircraft are just fine, or leave it at "well ok, but I still like them" if they don't feel like participating in an extended discussion.
Enough back-and-forth. Unless you're trying to be an example of the sort of behavior the moderators actively step on....
I've removed a few posts, and one poster. If I have to act in here again, I will do so broadly.
For myself, I started posting on Dakka in 1999 (3 different boards ago). It's historically been a 40k-first site, and some sub-forums (looking at you, YMDC) have a definite tone and something of a reputation. Some of that has been deserved, to one degree or another, over the years; much hasn't, as new posters are less likely to read all the stickies in the forum and discover that the purpose in there is a tad different than they might have expected. Usually it straightens out.
The OT forum.... Well, suffice it to say that my (educated) guess is that at last 50% of our post alerts occur in there, and probably 65% of (non-spam) moderator intervention happens in there. Some of that is intentional (it keeps most of the truly disruptive topics out of the rest of the forum, and WAY down at the bottom where you have to actively be looking to wander in). We're actually on a positive upswing at the moment - fewer moderation actions needed than a few years ago.
We do find ourselves having to remind certain posters that Dakka is first and always a site for the celebration of toy soldiers.
as a regular on B&C, CMON, and WAMP, i have to say that i have never had any negative experiences on those sites, but on here, the negative outweighs the positive by a large margin over the last year...
Challenge the group think on B&C and see how fast they go negative on you. I find the moderation there uneven. Dakka may be a more negative place overall, but at least the rules are applied to every Dakkanaut equally.
This place has mellowed since the days of old. Hell I joined so I could yell at mauleed, but by the time I finished reading the thread I was on his side and instead joined to yell at Drew Riggo.
So few people will know what I'm talking about. That's sad.
Well, anything is going to be mellow in comparison to the Drew/mauleed days in YMDC and elsewhere. I remember being fascinated at the time by those discussions and how deep someone could care about some edge-case scenario that wouldn't come up that often. Hadn't thought about mauleed in years tho.
Crimson Devil raises a good point though; the mods here are usually willing to let dissent and negativity exist so long as it's expressed in a mostly-civil fashion. This has brought in a few communities where the relationship with a given vendor has soured, but obviously that company doesn't want people complaining about them on their own forums, if they exist. It sometimes boggles the mind why some of these people insist on going into a thread about a company they hate, but that's people for you (and there's obviously some exceptions there; a failed KS project being a ready example).
That negativity is not a bad thing IMO. A good product is a good product and no amount of whining is really going to detract from that. However, finding out the pitfalls of dealing with a company beforehand can save someone a lot of time and hassle or at least calibrate expectations properly. Protecting the community from scammers (e.g. - Mandelbaum) or keeping attention on companies with poor track records (e.g. - Defiance, PB) has I know saved me quite a bit of frustration over the years.
Of course, I'll admit to being somewhat odd in that I like forums where I disagree with people. I already know my own viewpoints so I really don't need to be around tons of people who share them exactly. The differences I've always found to be far more useful.
Acting douchey is easy behind a nickname, and without things that are present in face-to-face discussions.
Most of the people responsible for vitriol are often (but not always) bitter individuals who take the hobby and most things related to level of melodramatics. There are also individuals who for some reason bring with them negativity and yearn for conflict wherever they go. It's hard to say what causes that, perhaps personal issues in real life.
Personally I just put all of those individuals on ignore, and the dakka experience has improved vastly. Out of sight, out of mind. I recommend doing that very thing, it works.
Runic wrote: Acting douchey is easy behind a nickname, and without things that are present in face-to-face discussions.
Along with that is a good measure of "And I care about your opinion because..." that comes from having a global community here.
In a face-to-face environment, you're fairly clearly going to be very likely in the same community with the same social circles. Disagreements are likely to spawn far more drama than anyone care to deal with, and generally you have a fairly reliable way of finding out this person's track record. This is a restraining force for most people where we grit our teeth and smile at the jackhole we wish very little good towards.
In contrast, look at the two of us. Our flags indicate that we're unlikely to ever cross paths. Our local communities might be completely different. The things that excite us might be entirely unrelated. In other words, what part of yours or my experience is relevant to the other party? Who cares if Finland doesn't play <overpowered gubbin X>; that doesn't help me in my situation where it does. Or, what use is it to know that "<game system Y> has a ready community here, I don't know what's wrong with Finland"? It wouldn't help you at all with finding out if there's a viable community near you. My experiences may be (and likely are) of incredibly little value to you, as valid as those experiences may be.
It's not just the anonymity, as large a part as that plays. It's also that disconnect where we all share a hobby, but may not share much else. Thus the inevitable "feeling-out" of a poster, which is made much more difficult if there's disagreement on major topics and no group-think (and despite the inevitable whining-about-whining you find in most N&R threads, Dakka is not a hive-mind). This tenuous connection leads to some bluntness because taking the time to couch terms is of little value. That is often a two-edged sword; it may hurt feelings, but it also cuts through some of the nonsense to get to the discussion.
I think the vitriol or negativity people see is most often attributed to a few key points:
-This isn't a 40k only forum anymore. Hell, I don't even play 40k. As such, rather than fans who have grown tired of GW moving to another site, they linger here, championing new game systems and pointing out perceived flaws in a game they once enjoyed. You also have die hards of other systems here, who can grate on 40k fans with their proselytizing. This leads to:
-Entrenchment. Because there is such a large variety of opinions, and because people become attached to what they enjoy, they also feel the need to defend it. Sometimes staunchly and without the ability to absorb new or differing opinions. With these two sides entrenched on the topic, you see the rise of:
-Heroes of the Noise. You know this poster. You may have been this poster. They lead from the front, jumping out of the trenches and leading the charge of absurd arguments and ad hominem attacks, leaving a wake of strawmen and collaterally damaged via infraction posters, only to be cut down by a ban hammer and a week vacation. Usually, these folks come in hot and burn out just as fast. Occasionally they linger, starting the charge but remaining in their trench, hucking hyperbole hand grenades into the mix to make sure the fires keep burning. Every so often, they will leave the battlefield and wander into another thread or forum, attempting to like the garbage bin on fire like a serial arsonist until cooler heads eventually put them on ignore.
Basically, and tl:dr, if you recognize that battle lines have been drawn in a thread, don't come in trying to broker peace or giving a balanced opinion and expect both sides to suddenly see the light. Understand the invested people are people who have their mind essentially made up. It takes a long time to change a mind, and recognizing this helps cut down on the negativity by a lot.
Joined Dakka back in 2009. Twelve years old, and a complete donkey-cave. I had a friend who joined up shortly before me at the time who I'd, on an almost weekly basis, flip between amity and animosity with, and I'm fairly confident I only joined to have another way of getting under his skin. I used to treat this site like it was a competition. I'd start rumor threads based on my own theories and post them as alleged facts, and start fights with anyone who called me out on it, all to boost my post count, as though the number of pages on a thread or the counter below my name actually had any intrinsic value. I'm honestly embarrassed by the way I used to behave here, I'm almost cringing too hard to write this.
I mellowed out over time, and I think that's true of pretty much everyone else here. As the years go by, more and more people have either acclimatized or left, so while the influx of hot-headed new'uns has remained steady, the ranks of chilled out folks who just want to have a good time have grown ever larger. Maybe the toxic vitriol levels have stayed the same, but they've become more and more diluted since I first joined. Or maybe I just notice it less myself because I'm not looking for it.
Essentially I learned how to grow up here. Be it through simple observation of polite interaction, or the few times I had be given a talking down, this site was always in the background for me during my formative years as I matured into the bloke I am today. And while I might be a little biased in saying this, I like to think I've turned out reasonably well, so Dakka can't really be that bad.
Personally I just put all of those individuals on ignore, and the dakka experience has improved vastly. Out of sight, out of mind. I recommend doing that very thing, it works.
Best advice. My ignore list is pretty long. And credit where it's due, most of the individuals who seem to cause people grief are the first to point out that you can just ignore them if you don't like what they have got to say.
I've been around the block here both as a user and a mod for a while now... I think a lot of it comes down to this - Basically the longer you are here and the more familiar and routine it gets, the more apparent the negative aspects are. It's not really more or less in quantity so much as it is simply you are noticing it more.
MajorTom11 wrote: I've been around the block here both as a user and a mod for a while now... I think a lot of it comes down to this - Basically the longer you are here and the more familiar and routine it gets, the more apparent the negative aspects are. It's not really more or less in quantity so much as it is simply you are noticing it more.
Imho of course -
I think this thread, or variations of it, pops up every year or so. I joined in the tail end of the old days, and there was a lot more macho BS back then that we all tried to argue was "straight shooting." It's enough to make any human communication expert throw up in their mouth.
I think it's gotten better. If anything, far more posts go without comment than before.
MajorTom11 wrote: I've been around the block here both as a user and a mod for a while now... I think a lot of it comes down to this - Basically the longer you are here and the more familiar and routine it gets, the more apparent the negative aspects are. It's not really more or less in quantity so much as it is simply you are noticing it more.
Imho of course -
I think this thread, or variations of it, pops up every year or so. I joined in the tail end of the old days, and there was a lot more macho BS back then that we all tried to argue was "straight shooting." It's enough to make any human communication expert throw up in their mouth.
I think it's gotten better. If anything, far more posts go without comment than before.
That's not always a good thing though. There are quite often posts made specifically to bait responses, especially when you venture down to Off Topic.
Off Topic is a lawless wasteland, if you tread there, let it be on your head lol!
Polonius spot on, I meant to write that, this exact thread crops up every year or two, and having been around for a quite a while at this point, I can honestly say that it hasn't changed too much overall. It just feels like it does. Ebbs and flows a bit but there were always contentious people and topics, and always will be.
Overall, still a pretty damn good spot given the quantity of users. Old issues are polarized issues though, so the longer these games and systems or policies are out from any given company, the less actual open minded discussion happens around them. In some ways, the toxic atmosphere is merely a result of the age of the unresolved topics I think...
H.B.M.C. wrote: This place has mellowed since the days of old. Hell I joined so I could yell at mauleed, but by the time I finished reading the thread I was on his side and instead joined to yell at Drew Riggo.
So few people will know what I'm talking about. That's sad.
I do. Ed was a different guy in person than his internet persona would lead you to believe. I never met Drew IRL, but I wonder if the same holds true for him, or if the sky was actually always falling for him IRL?
Anyway, IMO there were different eras of Dakka, and each era had its own personality. As I saw it, the late pre-Yakface era was easily the most negative. Traffic was very light, Russ just wasn't that engaged anymore, and the place was hostile to outsiders (and most insiders). Unless -- like being in prison -- you electronically "beat someone up" your first day. The forum was a turd circling the bowl at that point. Then Yak came in and put things on a more civilized path.
Since then I think there have been ebbs and flows, but overall the mods have *reasonably* consistently enforced their basic rules about being nice, etc. The painting and modeling forums have taken off in a major, major way since the ownership change. And there are so many more healthy boards within the overall forum.
Do I miss the old, hostile days? Sometimes. Sometimes I'd like to be able to be...more direct?...with obviously foolish statements. Nowadays, the common forum behavior is about firing insults *just past* someone's nose. Sometimes it seems like even the mildest direct pejorative will get your hand slapped, while one can make *all kinds* of indirect assertions. And there's *so* much more noise these days. I remember when a thread was long if it got to 5 or 6 pages. More conversation is good, but it's so much harder finding the really good posts in 70+ page threads.
But overall, it's certainly a much friendlier and healthier place than it used to be. And on the continuum of internet forums, it's probably somewhere in the middle. There are certainly friendlier places even within this same, narrow geek niche, but also much less friendly places.
If one is looking for a reason for a recent upsurge in negativity, there's a chance it's topically related to AoS and/or 7th edition 40KIMO. For different reasons, those games sparked a lot of bad feelings recently among the more competitive gamers. Outside of those topics, however, I'm not sure I see much recent difference in tone here...?
Personally I just put all of those individuals on ignore, and the dakka experience has improved vastly. Out of sight, out of mind. I recommend doing that very thing, it works.
Best advice. My ignore list is pretty long. And credit where it's due, most of the individuals who seem to cause people grief are the first to point out that you can just ignore them if you don't like what they have got to say.
I've never really considered doing this. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not for me. I prefer to see what people are saying and consider whether to take it on board (or bother replying). Now, if ignoring a user stopped them from being able to post in your topics, or see your posts, I'd be on that like free cake.
Yeah, I'm of a similar opinion about the Ignore feature. Tried it a few times, doesn't really work for me.
Because you can still see their posts when quoted, there's an indicator when they post in a thread (and I'm a nosey fether, so can't resist clicking to expand it!) and it doesn't block PMs, it's been largely useless for the users I've tried it on.
So, you really want an "eradicate all existence of" feature? Yeah, I'd prefer that . Can't say I've ever had a pm from anyone I've ignored though. I don't tend to ignore people who I feel have been rude to me directly, more when someone's views or attitude in general seem perpetually rude or passive aggressive. I have ignored two people for direct rudeness, but again only when it's repeated behaviour, we all have bad days after all.
Ignore is an option, not for everyone.
What few I have ignored are mainly for those I simply cannot stop rising to the bait.
I can handle what anyone writes, it is my response at trying to correct someone who is so VERY wrong on the internet I have problems with...
JamesY wrote: So, you really want an "eradicate all existence of" feature? Yeah, I'd prefer that . Can't say I've ever had a pm from anyone I've ignored though. I don't tend to ignore people who I feel have been rude to me directly, more when someone's views or attitude in general seem perpetually rude or passive aggressive. I have ignored two people for direct rudeness, but again only when it's repeated behaviour, we all have bad days after all.
PMs from people on ignore have happened, albeit rarely. Ironically a participant in this very thread has been responsible for this with me and others, but it's normally been an immediate reaction to the event that precipitated the ignoring, rather than a lengthy stream of abuse weeks or months later!
I'd love a function that the mods can sanction a user where they're able to post, but are unaware that their posts aren't actually visible to anyone else, I'd think we'd find any persistent flame baity accounts would soon move on when nobody ever took the bait for their latest "Eldar aren't OP" thread or any other similar topic which is clearly designed by the attention seeking.
This thread crops up every year, but perhaps with it being an election year the OT seems worse than usual. Like most forums you have the posters who you gravitate to because of their posting style/tips/etc., then you have your clique of Mean Girls who manage to stay on just the right side of the ban hammer. Some Moderators are fantastic and typify the dedication of a volunteer position in the community. Other will stalk users from thread to thread as soon as they post, or ones may fabricate reasons to take action.
You can always ignore people to cut down on the noise to signal ratio, or avoid certain threads whose topics almost inevitably lead to disagreements and locks.
Knowing the probability of getting attacked minimizes my posting on Dakka or anywhere else. I usually shrug it off but it can be a distraction.
I agree with the OP, but I have come to understand forums are actually tailor made for sharp exchanges.
Frothers is simply crazy with abuse, so Dakka is not the worst.
I also wish there was a maximum thread length and a way for moderators to delete things that simply say nothing. When I see a thread that really interests me and then realize it is 50+ pages long I do not even bother to click.
A lot of posting successfully on dakka is really common sense. First, don't wade into an argument. It's probably not worth your time. Second, never wade into a meta-argument: where the discussion is no longer even about the points, but in whether somebody used a straw man fallacy or not. My rule is that when people start sincerely pointing out fallacies or quoting dictionary definitions, it's just a scrum.
Third: have a valid point. Share new facts, bring a fresh insight, share your experiences while not overly generalizing. Bare statements of like or dislike are mostly noise. Fourth, As a rule, positive or upbeat noise is still better than negative noise.
If you think of your posts as part of a conversation, and you post to further that conversation in a productive way, than anybody that attacks you is probably out of line, and others will call them on it.
In my experience, as a rule of thumb, we humans tend to be pretty egocentric. So the definition of "toxic behaviour" or "toxic environment" many times equals "a behaviour I disagree with" or "an environment I dislike".
With my standards in mind, I don't really consider Dakka to be a "toxic" place at all. I actually find it an interesting forum where vastly different opinions can be read. There are way worse places out there. The worst ones are the "resonance chambers" where everybody thinks more or less the same, and anyone with a different opinion or mindset is usually quickly ostracised or even kicked out.
That is not to say we could not be a bit more polite sometimes, myself included. But well, everybody can get quite passionate about their hobbies, and we're not exactly an exception. I think the mods do a good job overall keeping things civil.
I don't see Dakka as any more, or less, toxic than what currently passes for society as a whole. Due to fairly recent world events, large swathes of people are very pissed and polarized at the moment, and that can't help but become manifest on Dakka when hot-button topics pop up on the boards.
Take a quick run around some of the posts and topics in the OT for some examples of what I'm talking about. Just a sign of the times, imho.
Personally I just put all of those individuals on ignore, and the dakka experience has improved vastly. Out of sight, out of mind. I recommend doing that very thing, it works.
Best advice. My ignore list is pretty long. And credit where it's due, most of the individuals who seem to cause people grief are the first to point out that you can just ignore them if you don't like what they have got to say.
My ignore list is empty and will stay that way.
My advice wold be to not become too engaged with someone who has a 'negative' opinion, if you have to post the same information/opinion twice in the same thread then just walk away because if you don't the thread will just turn into a cyclical argument and spoil it for everyone else. No one is interested in an entire page of back and forth replies between 2 people.
Its fairly civil here really. A sprinkling of keyboard warriors and a few absolute throbbers but there are far worse places out there.
I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.
Azreal13 wrote: I'd love a function that the mods can sanction a user where they're able to post, but are unaware that their posts aren't actually visible to anyone else, I'd think we'd find any persistent flame baity accounts would soon move on when nobody ever took the bait for their latest "Eldar aren't OP" thread or any other similar topic which is clearly designed by the attention seeking.
At another forum I've been a member of for 20 (!) years we have that feature. It's called "Being sent to Coventry", and the user has no idea that no one can see their posts. There's also the 'discouragement' mode, where you will get longer load times, be logged out randomly and generally have you life made difficult by the forum software.
It was also a special type of punishment used on the Something Awful forums, it was called "Hellforum" or something IIRC, Lowtax said it was seldomly used though, as banning is easier.
On topic though, I personally feel that this place isn't as toxic as it used to be, as people tend to disappear if they keep on ignoring repeated warnings and suspensions. It also helps that the current stable of mods has had its rotten apples removed over time.
I think passionate people expect that this forum is an echo chamber like some other hobby forums, DakkaDakka isn't that, people give their opinion, even the ones you don't want to hear, some people cannot accept that.
Then there are the people devoid of sarcasm that take every post serious, a sorry lot that is.
I never use the ignore button, it would loose a lot of entertainment for me
Also it depends on which part of the forum you venture the hobby forum is usually the most mellow place.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.
Azreal13 wrote: I'd love a function that the mods can sanction a user where they're able to post, but are unaware that their posts aren't actually visible to anyone else, I'd think we'd find any persistent flame baity accounts would soon move on when nobody ever took the bait for their latest "Eldar aren't OP" thread or any other similar topic which is clearly designed by the attention seeking.
At another forum I've been a member of for 20 (!) years we have that feature. It's called "Being sent to Coventry", and the user has no idea that no one can see their posts. There's also the 'discouragement' mode, where you will get longer load times, be logged out randomly and generally have you life made difficult by the forum software.
I hate that idea with a passion, but then I have only seen it implemented on Reddit where the mods are insane, and PMing a mod to ask why you were banned will just get you a 72 hour mute on PMs and no explination.
master of ordinance wrote: I have got to admit that I have seen this growth too. That said, the state of 40K and the introduction of AoS have not helped.
(And yes, I have been getting a little snarky myself lately)
I think it has alot to due with the general crowd that minatures bring. Many tend to be obsessive and all in type, when things change it tends to really upset them.
Also the culture of most places have become intitled where if they do not like the direction of a company or feel it is unfair it is against them personally. The internet gives people the idea that because they can complain and people agree with them they are in the majoirity and any acts against that crowd real or not is a direct attack.
Look at people talk about balance in points and how they feel directly insulted because their dreads are different. Blood angle players, orks
Or how chaos was not updated correctly
Or wraith knights
People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.
People lose sight that this is a world wide buisness and they want money.
I was on Decipher.com discussion boards back in my Star Wars CCG days in college (1996). People that loved the game were still dickheads to each other. This is not a recent phenomenon. Since the invention of ANY anonymous means of expression, there have been people that treat others like crap. Roman graffiti was not kind to Caesar, Tell the Times (local newspaper allowed you to write in your own editorials and would publish them) back in the 80s and 90s was full of racist and callous remarks until it was discontinued.
We are not more negative now. You're looking at the internet through rose colored glasses.
Put haters on ignore. Poof, you never have to see their 100th complaint in as many days about how underpowered the Blood Angels are, or how not allowing FW in your tournaments/FLGS/Pick-up-games/bathroom is a disgusting house rule, or how Dorn is not the most handsome primarch of all them all.
master of ordinance wrote: I have got to admit that I have seen this growth too. That said, the state of 40K and the introduction of AoS have not helped.
(And yes, I have been getting a little snarky myself lately)
I think it has alot to due with the general crowd that minatures bring. Many tend to be obsessive and all in type, when things change it tends to really upset them.
Also the culture of most places have become intitled where if they do not like the direction of a company or feel it is unfair it is against them personally. The internet gives people the idea that because they can complain and people agree with them they are in the majoirity and any acts against that crowd real or not is a direct attack.
Look at people talk about balance in points and how they feel directly insulted because their dreads are different. Blood angle players, orks
Or how chaos was not updated correctly
Or wraith knights
People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.
People lose sight that this is a world wide buisness and they want money.
I'm not even a teacher and your posts make me want to go through them with a red pen!
But, taking your points..
People don't like change. It's not the product of some sweeping stereotype you seem to wish to apply to gamers, you can take any interest that people are passionate about (again, common to, but not exclusive to, gamers) and most any sort of change will meet with a mixed reaction at best.
People are entitled though. They're entitled to be pissed off when that change somehow impacts on their enjoyment of what they do. Whether that's pissed at the fact that thanks to another price hike they can't afford to embark on a project they were excited to do, or pissed that the latest update has nerfed their faction or made another one too strong. They're also entitled to be pissed when the gradual erosion of the player base by years of successive poor decisions, bad design and price rises means there's nobody to play anymore.
I mean, how dare they look at a model available to another faction, see how much more efficiently it does something (or everything in some cases) for an equivalent investment in points (or even cash!) and feel hard done by, they should just shut up and play unbound or start a new army, amiright?
People are also entitled to vent their frustrations anywhere they are permitted to do so, such as a forum designed to discuss precisely those sorts of topics.
People are also entitled to disagree, but so frequently those disagreements boil down to dismissal of those frustrations as "hate" rather than any sort of constructive back and forth it's no wonder people get angry. Most people are remarkably tolerant, IME, until they either feel like they're being taken for fools or not being heard.
You're quite right that this is a worldwide business, but as your post, and probably whole viewpoint I'd wager, is heavily GW-centric, it fails to account for all the other companies who are quite successfully making money without engendering such division and conflict in their player base. The ones that play test, work hard to offer value, actively mange their game should play testing not catch everything and actively engage with their players/customers.
The ones who's boards on Dakka don't offer anything like the toxicity of anything GW related.
I'm not sure "insulted" is quite the right term, but as you've used it, I'd say that being taken for granted and subject to blatant cash grabs and being milked for cash to mask falling unit sales for years is probably going to make people feel pretty darned insulted.
Not the most effective way of getting all that money they want, as can be evidenced by the last few years financial reports.
Put haters on ignore. Poof, you never have to see their 100th complaint in as many days about how underpowered the Blood Angels are, or how not allowing FW in your tournaments/FLGS/Pick-up-games/bathroom is a disgusting house rule, or how Dorn is not the most handsome primarch of all them all.
Is the fact I now know at least two of the posters on your ignore list a symptom of me spending too much time here, or an indication the posters in question have a real issue?
Personally I just put all of those individuals on ignore, and the dakka experience has improved vastly. Out of sight, out of mind. I recommend doing that very thing, it works.
Best advice. My ignore list is pretty long. And credit where it's due, most of the individuals who seem to cause people grief are the first to point out that you can just ignore them if you don't like what they have got to say.
My ignore list is empty and will stay that way.
My advice wold be to not become too engaged with someone who has a 'negative' opinion, if you have to post the same information/opinion twice in the same thread then just walk away because if you don't the thread will just turn into a cyclical argument and spoil it for everyone else. No one is interested in an entire page of back and forth replies between 2 people.
Its fairly civil here really. A sprinkling of keyboard warriors and a few absolute throbbers but there are far worse places out there.
I just want to sneak back in and express my love for the beautiful turns of phrase in that last sentence.
master of ordinance wrote: I have got to admit that I have seen this growth too. That said, the state of 40K and the introduction of AoS have not helped.
(And yes, I have been getting a little snarky myself lately)
I think it has alot to due with the general crowd that minatures bring. Many tend to be obsessive and all in type, when things change it tends to really upset them.
Also the culture of most places have become intitled where if they do not like the direction of a company or feel it is unfair it is against them personally. The internet gives people the idea that because they can complain and people agree with them they are in the majoirity and any acts against that crowd real or not is a direct attack.
Look at people talk about balance in points and how they feel directly insulted because their dreads are different. Blood angle players, orks
Or how chaos was not updated correctly
Or wraith knights
People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.
People lose sight that this is a world wide buisness and they want money.
I'm not even a teacher and your posts make me want to go through them with a red pen!
But, taking your points..
People don't like change. It's not the product of some sweeping stereotype you seem to wish to apply to gamers, you can take any interest that people are passionate about (again, common to, but not exclusive to, gamers) and most any sort of change will meet with a mixed reaction at best.
People are entitled though. They're entitled to be pissed off when that change somehow impacts on their enjoyment of what they do. Whether that's pissed at the fact that thanks to another price hike they can't afford to embark on a project they were excited to do, or pissed that the latest update has nerfed their faction or made another one too strong. They're also entitled to be pissed when the gradual erosion of the player base by years of successive poor decisions, bad design and price rises means there's nobody to play anymore.
I mean, how dare they look at a model available to another faction, see how much more efficiently it does something (or everything in some cases) for an equivalent investment in points (or even cash!) and feel hard done by, they should just shut up and play unbound or start a new army, amiright?
People are also entitled to vent their frustrations anywhere they are permitted to do so, such as a forum designed to discuss precisely those sorts of topics.
People are also entitled to disagree, but so frequently those disagreements boil down to dismissal of those frustrations as "hate" rather than any sort of constructive back and forth it's no wonder people get angry. Most people are remarkably tolerant, IME, until they either feel like they're being taken for fools or not being heard.
You're quite right that this is a worldwide business, but as your post, and probably whole viewpoint I'd wager, is heavily GW-centric, it fails to account for all the other companies who are quite successfully making money without engendering such division and conflict in their player base. The ones that play test, work hard to offer value, actively mange their game should play testing not catch everything and actively engage with their players/customers.
The ones who's boards on Dakka don't offer anything like the toxicity of anything GW related.
I'm not sure "insulted" is quite the right term, but as you've used it, I'd say that being taken for granted and subject to blatant cash grabs and being milked for cash to mask falling unit sales for years is probably going to make people feel pretty darned insulted.
Not the most effective way of getting all that money they want, as can be evidenced by the last few years financial reports.
Put haters on ignore. Poof, you never have to see their 100th complaint in as many days about how underpowered the Blood Angels are, or how not allowing FW in your tournaments/FLGS/Pick-up-games/bathroom is a disgusting house rule, or how Dorn is not the most handsome primarch of all them all.
Is the fact I now know at least two of the posters on your ignore list a symptom of me spending too much time here, or an indication the posters in question have a real issue?
Made my point perfectly lol...... You litteraly are the exact person I described. But I am out I feel your hatred flowing. Take a breath relax some it is a game.
I'm intrigued how you came to that conclusion? Far from any sort of hate filled rant I'm pretty sure I made logical points?
But, ironically, you've just made my point about how any amount of reasoned criticism will be dismissed by some as hatred, largely because there's no logical counter to it or perhaps simply no capacity.
I have simply moved on to other games, dropping into the odd 40K General or N+R GW thread is about the limit of my engagement with the system these days, I'm just quietly painting my backlog and keeping an eye out for a time when I'm excited to play 40K again.
If you think you can characterize that as hatred, then I'd warn you you'll stretch my, and a lot of others I'm sure, belief in your credibility.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.
Exactly!
Then a month/two months/whenever the heck I remember it I take someone off of thr Ignore list, see if I still have a temptation to use a Whiffle bat on them, and if not then they stay off of the Ignore list.
More often than not, I find that the Ignoree no longer posts at all.
Just yesterday I was thinking of how much nicer Dakka seems these days than when I first joined. (Part of that is learned behavior - so I avoid the type of threads that raise my blood pressure.)
And part seems to be that there is less knee-jerk defense of GW these days.
There are fewer posts blaming the difficulties that GW has been facing on the unemployed young Cypriots.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.
Same here. I have only ever put one person on ignore (and took them off ignore after a few months) but as HBMC says, it was more about reminding myself to ignore them rather than relying on the site software to ignore them for me, as it were. I think putting someone on ignore can also have a sort of ... therapeutic effect? in that you are engaging by disengaging.
As to whether Dakka Dakka has changed in tone - I think it is less ranty than in days gone by and, as a mod, sometimes I wonder if we are too hands-on, even considering that, if anything, our base line policy is to err towards hands-off. I don't see much harm in letting people rant at each other if that's how they want to spend their time so long as it doesn't get personal and remains, broadly speaking, on topic. Also, I don't understand the complaint that "posters are critical of GW" ... I think GW has shaped up quite a bit of late but until very recently it was difficult to see how people could avoid being critical of GW!
H.B.M.C. wrote: I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.
Same here. I have only ever put one person on ignore (and took them off ignore after a few months) but as HBMC says, it was more about reminding myself to ignore them rather than relying on the site software to ignore them for me, as it were.
As to whether Dakka Dakka has changed in tone - I think it is less ranty than in days gone by and, as a mod, sometimes I wonder if we are too hands-on, even considering that, if anything, our base line policy is to err towards hands-off. I don't see much harm in letting people rant at each other if that's how they want to spend their time so long as it doesn't get personal and remains, broadly speaking, on topic. Also, I don't understand the complaint that "posters are critical of GW" ... I think GW has shaped up quite a bit of late but until very recently it was difficult to see how people could avoid being critical of GW!
my beef is not that "posters are critical of GW"...
differences of opinion are often enlightening...
my beef is that posters make it personal against people who enjoy GW products...
i find that having personal insults hurled at me just because i enjoy painting Space Marines, and love the GW miniature aesthetic, art, and fiction, makes it an unpleasant experience to post here..
being told my posts add nothing to the conversation, that i have poor taste, or that i am not capable of critical thought, just because GW is first among the dozen or more mini companies that i support, really makes it hard to enjoy this site...
the fact that the Mods will let those insults slide, and then drop the red text when i am defending myself is very discouraging...
like i said, i see an increase in rudeness...
it is possible to have differences of opinion without hurling personal insults at the person you disagree with, but i guess that is just not as much fun
To disagree without being disagreeable. We've disagreed, Jah, sort of, about base enhancements, but I did not think either of us was disagreeable.
I find it hard to understand how people will argue matters of personal taste, or preference, but they do. That is where I've seen toxicity, not on this forum but on another that I very infrequently visit.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.
Azreal13 wrote: I'd love a function that the mods can sanction a user where they're able to post, but are unaware that their posts aren't actually visible to anyone else, I'd think we'd find any persistent flame baity accounts would soon move on when nobody ever took the bait for their latest "Eldar aren't OP" thread or any other similar topic which is clearly designed by the attention seeking.
At another forum I've been a member of for 20 (!) years we have that feature. It's called "Being sent to Coventry", and the user has no idea that no one can see their posts. There's also the 'discouragement' mode, where you will get longer load times, be logged out randomly and generally have you life made difficult by the forum software.
Passive Aggressive Software. We are living in the golden age.
I dunno, here it's like parliamentary procedure to discuss anything and has been for a while. for the most part it's the knee-jerk reactions that get smacked down, but the actual discussions take a long time to get the wording just right. Lots of insults and passive-aggressive language can be found in most threads on general discussion, but if they cross the line the mods step in. When I want to have the full internet discussion on a topic I post here, when I just want a saloon atmosphere I post on SA. it's a lot more relaxed there, and you don't need to couch statements in a clear, concise manner. As an added bonus you don't need to be passive-aggressive, you can just be aggressive, haha.
I don't think either style is a good or bad thing, and both have evolved over time. I know when I first started posting here I wouldn't even read the general discussion threads and just stayed in Painting and Modelling for the most part. Now the general boards are much more civil and far less clique-ish. I know back in the day you weren't just arguing with one poster, but rather a faction! Now a well-worded argument can even get detractors from your view to at least see the point you are making.
Strangely enough, I feel like P&M and the general boards have switched places. I enjoy reading the general boards, and even post from time to time. I haven't posted in P&M in quite a while and stopped reading it due to people just being crabby in painting threads. I feel like a consensus got reached on what techniques are good or bad, and any deviation from those gets harsh criticism. Encouragement of new or different techniques seems verboten now. I just don't see the wild ideas that used to be prevalent, and criticism is much more swift and harsh. That's a real shame, because I hate the Warseer P&M section now because every army has it's own sub-section. You don't get cross-pollination like here on DAKKA, where there's just one section for P&M. (or like on SA, where it's all just in two threads!)
pox wrote: I dunno, here it's like parliamentary procedure to discuss anything and has been for a while. for the most part it's the knee-jerk reactions that get smacked down, but the actual discussions take a long time to get the wording just right.
Not to argue with any of your points, but one observation: Dakka has a fairly international user base, and English is not the first language for quite a few of our regular posters. As such, sometimes it is necessary to offer your point a few different ways, as not everyone reading may catch your meaning on the first pass.
On other boards I frequent, where the base is pretty uniformly from the US, this is less of an issue.
jah-joshua wrote: like Dark Traveler said, i come here to talk about my passion for the hobby, not get in an internet gunfight...
i have really, really been put off posting here since February, because posts about what i like are met with personal attacks time and time again...
it takes any enjoyment out of posting...
even reading posts has become too much, most of the time...
i never noticed so much vitriol in the past...
i've been a member for ten years, and in my experience, Dakka has never been worse than it is now...
i am not here to win a debate, but to have a nice conversation among a global community that enjoys painting toy soldiers...
having to argue every single point of minutia is so tiring, i would rather just not bother...
it is sad really...
after ten years of enjoyment, i am on the brink of just walking away from here...
as a regular on B&C, CMON, and WAMP, i have to say that i have never had any negative experiences on those sites, but on here, the negative outweighs the positive by a large margin over the last year...
funny enough, in person, every Dakka member that i have met have been wonderful to hang out and chat with...
almost as if the anonymity of the internet engenders a lot of trash talking that people wouldn't dare engage in face to face...
it has been great to meet up outside of the forums, and act like actual decent human beings
cheers
jah
I've noticed that your posts have a tendency to come across as being "Well, I like it, so there is no point in discussing it". Then, because you replied to other posts, the posters try to reply to you in defence of their positions. You reply again with a comment along the lines of "Your point is irrelevant because I like it". This continues until someone decides that since all of your points are just "I like it", the only appropriate response is to attack you, personally.
Also, your posts look like you are attempting to write free-form poetry. And nobody likes free-form poetry.
I agree I have witnessed "Jah" getting run at for his liking and being content with GW's product.
What the people forget is he spends all his time assembling and painting these models for customers of his.
He is not trying to build an army and the cost of the miniatures are not his personal expense.
Hard to find much wrong with just painting what you are used to that fits together rather well and has a good common esthetic.
The rest of us that is concerned with rules, expense and quantity of models needed to play: that is a whole different viewpoint.
Also when people are used to a certain level of service we tend to feel entitled to it forever.
GW is a much different animal now than before: better models but service or customer engagement is much less.
Sometimes when we are feeling hard done by, all we want is to hear is the sympathy, not a contrary opinion. I keep forgetting we are among "friends" and all you get is "Awwww look at the poor baby!"
@CrazyCarnifex: sorry to hear that you think my posts read like i'm saying, "Well, I like it, so there is no point in discussing it."
nothing could be further from the truth...
saying "i disagree" is not the same as saying, "Your point is irrelevant because I like it."
i don't want anyone to feel that their perspective is not being listened to...
i hope that i actually point out what it is i like, and why...
i'm not trying to be dismissive...
hahahahaha, you are right about the free-form poetry...
i made a good living as a poet in the 90's, when "poetry slams" where hot, and where even a regular thing on MTV...
i guess the writing style stuck :(
good observation!!!
@Talizvar: i get why you would think that i don't buy my own minis, since i rarely find time to paint them...
the reality is that i buy about 9 minis for every 1 that i'm hired to paint...
collecting minis is my hobby, but painting is my job...
i am very passionate about my hobby, and like to reward what i consider to be great sculpting...
you are quite correct, however, about the point you make with me not having to stress rules, or worry about the cost of an entire army...
that is not to say that i don't own enough minis to build a few armies...
i used to buy the GW box armies just for the limited edition mini, so i have way more than i should
the main thing, is that my perspective is different because i have spent a over decade working in the industry...
i do feel engaged by GW, because i talk to the studio guys all the time...
i am happy to support these guys, and any other studio that i think does good work...
@jah-joshua
If you are happy painting and collecting fair enough.I am sure you believe you get value for money from GW. However, I do not think you are typical of the majority of the available customer base.
If you were then GW would not have to keep increasing prices over the rate of inflation to off set falling sales volumes.
This is what I really can not understand,why does GW write rules for people who do not play the game or do not care about the rules?
If GW wrote excellent rules but just sold wire frames and modelling clay , for the customers to sculpt the minatures themselves.
And still charged the same for the 'sort it out yourself minatures' as high quality resin minatures from other companies.
Perhaps you 'collector types' could understand the current 'discontent' lots of 'the gamer types' have with GW s current approach .
If a guy likes Fuji Apples, why the feth would he care about anyone telling him that Gala Apples are cheaper/better?
I haven't seen jah be a jerk to anyone, so more power to him.
However, I can now only imagine him with a silly mustache and a bowler hat, sipping a Moscow Mule (current trendy drink) while you sling your Miniature Related poetry.
I think the war some other forums 'seem' nicer is that, or at least this was true a few years ago, they sort of doubled down on supporting GW and 40k. There was then a significant exodus those who had different opinions who found themselves at dakka. Someone mentioned other forums being an echo chamber and that is precisely that I think. Dakka has grown now to the point where there are truly diverse opinions and many people. Sometimes those people with very diverse opinions rub each other up the wrong way.
One of the things I love about dakka is that the sub forums are very much a case of "do you want to know more?" Or alternatively "time to jump down that rabbit hole". I love the fact that "News and Rumours" is all the same forum. I'm on there looking for the latest, saw Mantic news, then there's a X page thread titles "Bear Cavalry" further down and I go ' oh I want to look at that' and I'm suddenly exposed to new things. I hope the mods and a sound realise how vital a strength of dakka that actually is.
One of my favourite threads on Dakka is what are you doing today? which I can only describe as a grab bag of awesomeness. One post er is writing about his Marvel stuff then the next is showing off his Ravenwing conversions.
One of the things I love about dakka is that the sub forums are very much a case of "do you want to know more?" Or alternatively "time to jump down that rabbit hole". I love the fact that "News and Rumours" is all the same forum. I'm on there looking for the latest, saw Mantic news, then there's a X page thread titles "Bear Cavalry" further down and I go ' oh I want to look at that' and I'm suddenly exposed to new things. I hope the mods and a sound realise how vital a strength of dakka that actually is.
.
Agree 100% - one of the things I love about the forum as well (although not necessarily good for the state of my wallet!)
Its more that people are more hypersensitive these days. Robust discussion is frowned on, now.
"Unnecessary snark"? How does that even compute?
Your post is a pretty good example, actually. In it you imply I am hypersensitive (while also painting anyone who disagrees with you with the wide brush of hypersensitivity) while also implying that snide, sarcastic remarks are to expected to the point where calling them unnecessary doesn't "compute" for you.
Just because we are posting electronically and not having a discussion face-to-face doesn't mean we need to be dicks to one another. Having a contrary opinion doesn't make one hypersensitive or afraid of robust discussion. There is plenty of polite, robust discussion on these forums.
The urge to immediately jump down someone's throat when they take a dissenting opinion is what I think The Observer is getting at (correct me if I am wrong), and that seems to be encouraged more here than on other forums.
Not everyone wants to come to a hobby forum and engage in a gun fight. Some people just want to relax and talk about toy soldiers.
And some people are doing exactly that when someone feels the need to pop into the thread to tell them all what horrible people they are because they talk like normal folk rather than characters from an Arthur Ransome novel. I've seen far more passive-aggression and sarcasm from people who feel the need to take issue with the "tone" of other people's posts than I have from people who write about the subject of discussion in a manner that would make people like yourself have a full on monocle-popping & pearl-clutching session. Sadly certain mods seem to agree with you, so you can look forward to enjoying an ever more anodyne posting environment without the discomfort of people holding strong opinions.
People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.
For me, that last word is the important one. After I was here for a while, there started to be a feeling of sameness. When threads on certain subjects come up, I know who will respond and the points they will make, and the flamewars they'll get into. Getting overwrought about a subject I can understand, I've done it a few times, but when I see someone making the same arguments on the same subjects for years on end, it makes the place feel very stale.
People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.
For me, that last word is the important one. After I was here for a while, there started to be a feeling of sameness. When threads on certain subjects come up, I know who will respond and the points they will make, and the flamewars they'll get into. Getting overwrought about a subject I can understand, I've done it a few times, but when I see someone making the same arguments on the same subjects for years on end, it makes the place feel very stale.
To combat some of those points is to try to offer something new or just do not engage if it seems too similar.
I look at it as a positive thing: if they get upset: they must care.
There is some common ground to be found there somewhere.
Talizvar wrote: To combat some of those points is to try to offer something new or just do not engage if it seems too similar.
I look at it as a positive thing: if they get upset: they must care.
There is some common ground to be found there somewhere.
Reading forums, it sometimes looks like the gun debate in the US. Everyone can agree that it's bad when a bunch of innocent people get shot, but common ground ends there, with the solutions being mutually exclusive, polar opposites. I mean, they can't even agree whether the world would be a safer place with fewer or more assault style rifles floating out there.
On so many gaming issues, the folks seem just as passionate and entrenched -- though obviously, I'm not trying to make an equivalence in terms of the importance of the issue, as it's pretty rare that a game actually kills someone
Personally, I've decided to just mostly keep out of those sorts of wargaming debates. It just sucks too much time out of my life. The irony is, I've met very few people at gaming and hobby shops that seem as unhappy about the "state of the hobby", regardless of what game world it is, as I see online.
So would it be too geeky to admit to being part of a debating society?
Few things can be as strange as arguing strongly for a view you may not agree with.
I always liked these quotes as a possible guide to posting in "lively" forums:
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it". - Aristotle
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
"Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Elie Wiesel
"The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not and never persist in trying to set people right." ~ Hannah Whitall Smith
Now if only I could follow that advice or at least keep it in mind.
There are allot of things about DD I really do like. The access to most of my game system news on one forum, the level of skill available in both gaming modelling and painting guides and the level of support one can draw on when building army lists or even new game rules.
That said I lurk more than I post for a few reasons that have been discussed and/or seen in this thread. Because I occasionally defend a GW tuleset or release that I like or find technically interesting or think the mechanic adds something worthwhile to the game. There have been occasions where the response doesn't discuss the model or the rules but focuses on how im not a proper gamer or im a fan girl and my opinion can and should be considered invalid because I dont have a real understanding of the game or one of several other lines that simply imply that im not focused on the right portion of the hobby.
Because allot of my close friends are current GW staff or otherwise involved within the wargaming hobby (running shops, working to promote games and raise awareness, freelance sculptors writers and rules designers) I see some things that do change my view on things. So when GW are attacked for not supporting/destroying the FLGS I post things from the other side of the coin and certainly a couple of years ago there was a big chunk of groupthink where if you defended anything the dark lord GW did ypu should be mocked and abused and I have seen things where I thought to my self 'its cool or interesting but if you changed the origin company to GW there wold be thousand word rants about how awful this thing the forums are raving about is'
Its getting better but I still see the one true scotsman thing to dismiss opinions 'ph you're a collector not a real gamer' for example and there's allot if people who feel entitled because as they are inteligent of course theirs is the only logical position and everyone else is unenlightened which means arguments get entrenched and nasty because people view themselves as missionaries spreading the one true word.
You see that attitude is why I haven't ever played malifaux up till now and even though I enjoyed the demo game two weeks back the attitude of the malifaux players at my Uni wargaming club have tainted the system for me. Every time I or others tried to start something for 40k, a campaign, a big game, a league or a TOMG style project we got reams of abuse both on the board the facebook group and in meetings. Abuse for still giving money to GW, abuse for enjoying the game, accusations that we weren't good enough players and painters to compete with them on a small skirmish level and relies on lazy techniques and cheap 'unbalanced rules' to win games rather than skill all in aid of proving they and their chosen system was better and if someone dared criticise or comment negatively on their holy of holies they'd attempt to bully ypu into apologising. I commented that I wasn't keen on the suits mechanic as an ability trigger because it makes it too inconsistent to plan tactics on and you'd think id walked into their flat and done something unspeakable to their favourite childhood plushie from the reaction.
The way fans of a game present themselves can have huge affects on the views people havw of the game and dakka duffers from that as well in its reputation for being somewhat insular and a hive of negativity which is a real shame though not entirely undeserved.
I stay out of the OT board as a matter of course because of a bad experience during a Gender identity discussion where people seemed to air incredibly extreme intolerant views aimply because they have an issue with how western society has changed and tolerance has in some cases become wnforced acceptance. At least I hope some of the extreme views were posted for their shock value rather than actually believed. I have seen similar extremes in the UK because of the change innhow things are discussed.
Danka like the rest of society over the last few years has at times in my experience become a place where sides are taken rather than issues discussed. I really do enjoy the forum because on the whole its a positive and interesting place and I just skip over things when they get nasty or when I know that something I post is going to get me attacked, I dont post my 54mm INQ stuff in the SG forum because I know the inevitable 54mm sucks play it in 28mm bunfight will get started after someone asks me why I play in 54mm. Someone will decide my reasons are WRONG and im having WRONGBADFUNtm and i need to be educated and boom off it goes and all I wanted was to show off a cool new shiny with some interesting fluff and a few cool homebrew items.
On that note I should really get round to posting my commissioned sculpt in the P&M forum because... Its just cool.
I have, for the most part, given up on Dakka and have all, but written it off. I saw this thread and wanted to chime in. I'll say what I have to say and be done.
Dakka toxicity is a major problem. This is a topic that I've brought up time and again and I too have always been met with ridicule, vitriol and even MOD warnings. Seriously... MOD warnings for calling people out on their over baring negativity. Interpret that as you wish.
The negativity and toxicity here branches out to WHAoS & WH40K communities as well - it's akin to mob mentality. You would be foolish to think that it doesn't.
I simply can't be bothered with it anymore. I can't surround myself with and engage in such negativity, such toxicity; for something that I'm passionate about.
Talys wrote: The irony is, I've met very few people at gaming and hobby shops that seem as unhappy about the "state of the hobby", regardless of what game world it is, as I see online.
And I've gotten into far less open shouty arguments about politics in the pub than on facebook and received a lot less death threats walking through Tesco than I did walking into the Bloodhaze in EQ2... I think we tend to be a lot more forthright and a lot less socially adroit online, that doesn't mean that the 'state of the hobby' can be dismissed as the rants of a few voices, but rather that it's more a forum for open, honest and less restrained discussion online.
Talizvar wrote: So would it be too geeky to admit to being part of a debating society?
Few things can be as strange as arguing strongly for a view you may not agree with.
Ha! Me too, though that was nearly 2 decades ago now
there have been some things on here that shocked me but in terms of politics and bias. A thread where someone openly gpt away with telling someone to STFU and his viewpoint was invalid at the same time he was complaining about being offended and begging the mods to punish another poster for being offensive.
Going so far as to start a thread with an inflammatory question that immediately presumed guilt and when an opposing point was offered it was immediately dismissed as bs and when demand that the person be punished.
The guy even basically admitted he had no interest in talking to the guy about his issue with him and prefered to do a messy public accusation which included a presumption of guilt based on posting history, and a very blunt attitude of I am in the right anyone ith the opposing view is wrong and shouldn't be allowed to state their opinion.
When questioned the second time about why he didnt ask the poster about the issue his response was basically 'why the heck should give him a chance to spout the same wrong bad evil argument that x above poster did' showing their was no interest in anything other than mod enforcement of his opinions.
Its something I see allot on forums where people seek out echo chambers where heir viewpoints can't be challenged, their safe and protected from having to think for themselves and stick to their views (in this case one which as been stirred up by the media and fills him with righteous indignation)
I don't really understand how this combination has appeared in social discourse on the one hand this entitled attitude of 'I am a special snowflake who needs my bubble and cocoon of safe space and cannot be allowed to hear or see anything that may possibly offend my fragile mind' combined with an attitude of 'Anyone who disagrees with me is every Ist under the sun plus a few new ones I have created myself and its perfectly acceptable fpr me to throw insults and labels put and dismiss their arguments because I AM PURE AND RIGHTEOUS AND RIGHT!!!'
I don't get how people can ask for their opinions to be respected and demand tp be offered safe spaces but at the same time berate and assassinate peoples character because they disagree with their viewpoint. Surely that's a pick one option? Either you are to respect everyone's expressions of self and views equally and handle discussion in a gentle non confrontal way supporting people in their personal identity and airing of views OR everyone who disagrees with you is open to personal attack and abuse but it seems its supportive and gentle and safe space AS LONG AS YPU AGREE WITH ME!!!
I
That's the only way it makes sense, dang I guess I agree with everyone who said it isn't Dakka it's society in general that's got toxic ooor I'm just getting older and more jaded.
On a sidenote I'm going to have that terrible Brittney Spears record in my head all dang day now FML
People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.
For me, that last word is the important one. After I was here for a while, there started to be a feeling of sameness. When threads on certain subjects come up, I know who will respond and the points they will make, and the flamewars they'll get into. Getting overwrought about a subject I can understand, I've done it a few times, but when I see someone making the same arguments on the same subjects for years on end, it makes the place feel very stale.
To combat some of those points is to try to offer something new or just do not engage if it seems too similar.
I look at it as a positive thing: if they get upset: they must care.
There is some common ground to be found there somewhere.
I don't engage, that's why I post here a lot less than I did.
And it seems there is no room for discussion, either you agree with them or you're the enemy. Heck, I remember a vicious argument not so long ago that stemmed from whether Sisters of Battle or Chaos Space Marines were the most neglected faction. Personal attacks, snark, mountains of evidence being quoted and promptly ignored, all for the sake of winning an argument about being slightly worse off than the other poster.
In general, it's the aggression that's offputting. I found other places to discuss Warmachine Mk3 in the runup, because if I posted here, I'd have risked being jumped on by the Ruined Forever / PP Is Satan crew. Hey, the Rifts RPG is getting a Savage Worlds conversion done on KS, better not mention it here in case I get accused of being a Palladium fanboy by those burned by the Robotech KS.
Sometimes, the hyper-aggression can be amusing to spectate on, like in any YMDC thread that goes over three pages, but it makes me very careful about what I post here, because I just don't have the energy for arguing that I used to. But I guess preferring discussion to winning arguments makes me over-sensitive and unable to handle vigorous debates.
The aggressive nature of some posters puts me off most discussion on here.
You have the same posters coming into threads to moan and backslap each other, and it goes unmodded in the most part. All that then happens is that someone snaps and says something, and they are punished.
There isn't a decent place to have a grown up discussion anymore, especially with WarmaHordes or Warhammer
The internet has been like this for years; it seems easier to be very critical of others because of the physical barrier and the possibility for misinterpretation.
I'm not gonna lie, I have tendencies to be passive aggressive myself - it's why I left the forums for a very long time as I felt like I wasn't contributing to anything meaningful nor was I treating others well.
Fact of the matter is, people will always argue, and sometimes people will drop bait that will lure people into being more aggressive. However, as long as we all keep in mind that, for the most part, the discussions on this forum are about hobbies and not anything more serious than a pastime that we all share a common interest in, then we can always go in for the sweaty hug after a match in the boxing ring
And hey, I think most people here are pretty nice and friendly towards each other, even when they disagree. You go Dakka community!
Talizvar wrote: So would it be too geeky to admit to being part of a debating society?
Few things can be as strange as arguing strongly for a view you may not agree with.
Ha! Me too, though that was nearly 2 decades ago now
Me three.
My good lady sometimes accuses me of starting arguments just so that she can win them. (There is a modicum of truth there - because nothing makes it easier to put money towards a Kickstarter than getting my good lady to be the one pushing for it. (Bones III. ))
Crimson Devil wrote: Do you guys not use the Alert a Mod button? Works most of the time for me.
Nothing seems to ever happen unless someone's blatantly breaking a rule (rather than dancing juuuuust up to the line while staying snarky, aggressive and low-content).
Thebiggesthat wrote: You have the same posters coming into threads to moan and backslap each other, and it goes unmodded in the most part. All that then happens is that someone snaps and says something, and they are punished.
Here's the thing: Moderation is intended to keep the forums civil and more or less on-topic. It's not the job of the moderators to enforce a positive attitude. The moment we start censoring people for having any given opinion on a topic, the forum becomes completely useless as a venue for discussion and just becomes an echo chamber. Or, in other words, pretty much exactly the sort of thing that people complain about with various companies' 'official' forums...
I'll say the same thing I've been saying for years now: If you want a more positive environment for discussion, the solution is to engage in more positive discussion. You don't have to argue with someone you see as being relentlessly negative... just focus on the positives in the discussion and ignore the rest. If the negative comments get spammy then they can be reported, but otherwise just let people have their opinions and get on with discussing the shiny stuff.
A forum is a community of people with varying opinions, and the tone of that community is shaped by the way those people choose to present themselves. That works both ways... A positive community is that way not because negative opinions are censored but because people choose to build a positive community.
As another consideration, companies/games you don't like get pushed farther down the page by responding (hopefully positively) in threads about stuff you do like. Every time you engage a 'jerk' you bring the topic to the highest part of the pile and encourage people to keep it there.
I'll say the same thing I've been saying for years now: If you want a more positive environment for discussion, the solution is to engage in more positive discussion. You don't have to argue with someone you see as being relentlessly negative... just focus on the positives in the discussion and ignore the rest. If the negative comments get spammy then they can be reported, but otherwise just let people have their opinions and get on with discussing the shiny stuff.
That doesn't help when someone crashes into a thread with ill-articulated but incredibly loud opinions (or outright trolling), because all it takes is one responder to turn the thread into a shouting match and drive out anyone who actually wants to discuss the subject because even if you do have something positive to say, holy crap who wants to try to make themselves heard over that?
I've seen a handful of posters who did this repeatedly and every time, rather than a targeted ban, the entire thread got locked for being "heated", with apparently no attention being paid to who crashed into it with the petrol can and box of matches.
Aye, topics do sometimes have the feel of an entire park being closed due to two people coming in and having a fight on the swing set.
I'm very rarely affected due to my aversion of various subjects, but I see it happen, and it's sad for the other 3/4 of participants that weren't getting their egos ruffled.
However the alternative is... What, realistically? I can't think of answers that wouldn't be an immense time sink for moderation.
There's a distinct delineation between two people falling out about something they feel strongly about and someone who's primary motivation is to make mischief.
The first is an inevitable consequence of throwing all sorts of ages, cultures and perspectives into the same environment, the fact that it doesn't happen on an hourly basis is testament to the efforts of the mod team and the generally good attitude most Dakka users bring to the site.
The second is something that's incredibly difficult to combat. You ban a user on a website that offers free registration? 2 minutes later they're back with a new name. You block the IP? VPNs are trivial to set up and I know for a fact that one disruptive user posted exclusively from their local library on a public network.
If someone is determined to disrupt, they will. The only way to combat them is ignore them til they go away.
That said, it seems some people's definition of toxic is "people who posses strong opinions that differ from mine" which simply isn't the case.
Besides, history is littered with people who attracted massive amounts of criticism for taking contrary or radical opinions, all I'd say is if you've arrived at your view sincerely (and aren't just adopting a contrary view to generate controversy - an offence that happens all too often IMO and should be rewarded with a hefty smack with the ban hammer to the face should a user be shown to be doing so) then stand by them, if you're right you'll be vindicated, but always retain the possibility that you're wrong.
You see that attitude is why I haven't ever played malifaux up till now and even though I enjoyed the demo game two weeks back the attitude of the malifaux players at my Uni wargaming club have tainted the system for me. Every time I or others tried to start something for 40k, a campaign, a big game, a league or a TOMG style project we got reams of abuse both on the board the facebook group and in meetings. Abuse for still giving money to GW, abuse for enjoying the game, accusations that we weren't good enough players and painters to compete with them on a small skirmish level and relies on lazy techniques and cheap 'unbalanced rules' to win games rather than skill all in aid of proving they and their chosen system was better and if someone dared criticise or comment negatively on their holy of holies they'd attempt to bully ypu into apologising. I commented that I wasn't keen on the suits mechanic as an ability trigger because it makes it too inconsistent to plan tactics on and you'd think id walked into their flat and done something unspeakable to their favourite childhood plushie from the reaction.
I have run into that with some people. I have no idea why, though. If you dare speak against the game system/whatever they proselytize, then you are a heathen and should be shunned, stoned, or both!
"Dude, there is plenty of room in the world for people that like Cherry Coke and people that like Bourbon."
Crimson Devil wrote: Do you guys not use the Alert a Mod button? Works most of the time for me.
Anytime someone has a different opinion than me on a subject, I hit the yellow triangle of friendship. I don't cotton to contrarian-ism!
Huron black heart wrote: I read the first page and can't be bothered with the rest because the first few replies have actually proved the op's opinion to be correct.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, did my response also prove the op's opinion correct?
Not really. Other people, myself included, have the opinion that there have ALWAYS been negative/toxic people in the gaming industry.
Go back and look at Decipher's Star Wars forums from 1997-2000. Full of a-holes. Self included!
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I was just musing to myself how much more peaceful and less aggressive Dakka was these days, it was certainly a lot more vitriolic, to me anyway, back in the days when I first joined. I have also been told that it was far more like The Old West before I came aboard.
The noise vs signal is much higher now though, can't be helped I guess with the growth of the forum.
It is calmer. I miss Mauleed and his inciteful if brutal comments.
It's not like it used to be. Where is the new Gwar!? Where is our Golden Eyed Scout?
OT, I think it's a matter of perspective. You can find the positive if you look for it - and what may be positive for one person (for example, strong debate) might look negative (i.e. as a shouting match) to another. Overall, it's peaks and troughs; there are people in this thread that were here long before I was (and I'm no summer child 'round these parts).
Thebiggesthat wrote: You have the same posters coming into threads to moan and backslap each other, and it goes unmodded in the most part. All that then happens is that someone snaps and says something, and they are punished.
Here's the thing: Moderation is intended to keep the forums civil and more or less on-topic. It's not the job of the moderators to enforce a positive attitude. The moment we start censoring people for having any given opinion on a topic, the forum becomes completely useless as a venue for discussion and just becomes an echo chamber. Or, in other words, pretty much exactly the sort of thing that people complain about with various companies' 'official' forums...
I'll say the same thing I've been saying for years now: If you want a more positive environment for discussion, the solution is to engage in more positive discussion. You don't have to argue with someone you see as being relentlessly negative... just focus on the positives in the discussion and ignore the rest. If the negative comments get spammy then they can be reported, but otherwise just let people have their opinions and get on with discussing the shiny stuff.
A forum is a community of people with varying opinions, and the tone of that community is shaped by the way those people choose to present themselves. That works both ways... A positive community is that way not because negative opinions are censored but because people choose to build a positive community.
I also think some self reflection is needed, are those people that constantly accusing the forum of negativity, not focusing on it themselves? If you really have an issue with some posters that according to you are poisoning the well, than use the ignore button. Don't let negative comments about your favorite faction/model/army/game system affect you, there are enough posters here that open to other views while others are dogmatic in their views.
I find some peoples fanatic views hilarious, go to the off-topic political or gun topics then hilarity ensues!
Become a Dudist,
And if something upsets you well then;
Elemental wrote: ... because all it takes is one responder to turn the thread into a shouting match ...
No, that requires at least two people. A 'shouting match' tends to not last very long if there's nobody shouting back.
Yeah, that's why I said "responder", as in someone who takes the bait.
There's a current thread in the 40K general discussion thread which is a good example of how a few people can drag threads into the abyss. It starts off as a discussion, then the second half is a repeat of several previous derailed threads, with the same people jumping back into their established roles like they're taking the stage on the anniversary tour of a musical. And as it goes on, the posts from other people actually discussing the topic decrease.
Lots of nostalgic feelings reading the last few pages of this thread. MGS - seems a good as time as any to say I'm glad you're still around. The same goes for any number of long-time users, like HBMC, BrookM, Melissia, Ahtman, I could go on and on and still miss people who, whether we disagree or not, I would really miss if they stopped posting. Cheers to you guys!
Never thought I would hit ignore but a couple got it.
The mean strong opinions based more on bluster is like folding a map wrong in front of me: best I not see it.
I am a better person then.
I dislike also doing nothing, I feel some level of activism is necessary.
It would take something "special" to hit the mod button however.
I may get over myself in that regard soon enough.
kronk wrote: I saw a guy wearing a jersey that said Green Blow Fly (I think) at Adepticon at one of the tournaments a few years ago.
Edit: those guys, even GWAR were before my time. My first few years here, I was more of a painting hobbyist than player, or playa, as it were...
Gwar was here during your time Kronk. He mostly trolled YMTC.
@thread, the ignore button makes Dakka a better place. Actually it's down right pleasant. Unfortunately my ignore list is long.
I recall another forum I used to frequent that would tell you how many members had you on ignore, not who they were specifically though. After it was implemented, a lot of people had a moment of self reflection, and there did seem to be more balanced responses. For a while, anyway.
Manchu wrote: Lots of nostalgic feelings reading the last few pages of this thread. MGS - seems a good as time as any to say I'm glad you're still around. The same goes for any number of long-time users, like HBMC, BrookM, Melissia, Ahtman, I could go on and on and still miss people who, whether we disagree or not, I would really miss if they stopped posting. Cheers to you guys!
Aww shucks.
I have gone very quiet in the last couple of years, hobby interest waning and lack of gaming opportunities here being a driving force for that. 30k has been pulling me back in of late and fired up the brain and inspiration somewhat though.
I just need to reply.
Imho, dakka has gone very soft.
Back in 2010 or so, when I joined up, I felt like:
"Hey, this is like 4chans /tg/, but as a "proper" board with lasting threads and images"
Dakka is not that anymore. It is definitely not that anymore, instead much more civilized. Which I also like. ( I lurk mostly ).
However, I'll amend this a little bit:
Imho, discussion is always more honest when only the argument counts, and nothing else. Creative Environments thrive on hostility, confrontation and harsh reactions to gak ideas.
In this regard, I prefer /tg/: When I want some truly creative discussion, or have some project I'm working on ( lately: some heraldry ), /tg/ has always been there for me. Sure the tone is rough, sure people cuss and swear, but shi/tg/ets done.
On this note: /tg/ has also become much more tame. Back in 2008 or so it was basically all "elf porn rape wat do" and "dragongirl hentai dicknipples" with some crazy creative discussion and some of the most creative quests sprinkled in.
The relatively laissez faire policy of dakka I like I cannot find much hostility or toxicity here.
I've always found dakka to be a majority of positive posts. Ive never shared pics/battle reports/ect..without very encouraging remarks. Its why I come to this site pretty much everyday and never plan on leaving.
There is always going to be snark on the internet, but I think dakka has a solid record of moderating it fairly.
Tim the Biovore wrote: Joined Dakka back in 2009. Twelve years old, and a complete donkey-cave. I had a friend who joined up shortly before me at the time who I'd, on an almost weekly basis, flip between amity and animosity with, and I'm fairly confident I only joined to have another way of getting under his skin. I used to treat this site like it was a competition. I'd start rumor threads based on my own theories and post them as alleged facts, and start fights with anyone who called me out on it, all to boost my post count, as though the number of pages on a thread or the counter below my name actually had any intrinsic value. I'm honestly embarrassed by the way I used to behave here, I'm almost cringing too hard to write this.
I mellowed out over time, and I think that's true of pretty much everyone else here. As the years go by, more and more people have either acclimatized or left, so while the influx of hot-headed new'uns has remained steady, the ranks of chilled out folks who just want to have a good time have grown ever larger. Maybe the toxic vitriol levels have stayed the same, but they've become more and more diluted since I first joined. Or maybe I just notice it less myself because I'm not looking for it.
Essentially I learned how to grow up here. Be it through simple observation of polite interaction, or the few times I had be given a talking down, this site was always in the background for me during my formative years as I matured into the bloke I am today. And while I might be a little biased in saying this, I like to think I've turned out reasonably well, so Dakka can't really be that bad.
I can vouch for that. I had a similar experience although mine was not a competition but more of a "One World View" due to depression lasting a year in school.
Now days I just laugh at it all, hell I check out my old threads. Check them out and laugh with me; If I could chuck you a beer through the internet I would
Honestly there is toxicity on Dakka but I find this to be all throughout the 40k section, I mean lets take a look:
40k Army Lists: Dare you have an original opinion on there.. If its not netlist X, Y or Z then you're just waiting for a wave of passive aggressive comments.
YMDC: Well as others have mentioned its a place of activity of all sorts of behavior...
40k Battle Reports: The tamest of the lot although occasionally you get the odd spark here and there.
40k background: second tamest, but you will see more sparks up here than the Batreps.
40k General Discussion: Well the tales to be told.. tbh its a routine of a dislike of certain armies (or top 5 armies you dislike, etc, etc), Followed by how much people hate Tau in general and how everyone hates how OP Eldar then the grand display of how CSM was great in 3.5 ed Vs. the amount of white knighting loyalists who just get aggressive because they just want to hear the sound of their own voice and how cool loyalist rules are with free transports. Then its all about those threads about GW's game balance which I swear is only there as a historical contingency plan so if the day GW does actually drown and burn like so many people supposedly "dream" of, then when people ask "What went wrong?" we can then point them to this grand ornate decade long Librarium of the same thread.
Theres a reason why on FB, DD is whispered in ushered tones likes a scary campfire story... Besides the amount of GW White Knights that prowl there who firmly believe that GW can do no wrong..
In all seriousness you could say Dakka is a victim of its own success, as something gets more and more popular the more variety of people with all flavors of life that come into this community and some are a bit sour.. bearing in mind we don't know their story either so the sourness could be a product of what they maybe going though at the moment, so I would never take too much to heart here That and bandwagoning, Jumping on bandwagons only serve of witch-hunts which are a mess unto themselves that just spiral out of control. An example of bandwagoning that I use in IRL to which a lot of people agree is a lot of discussions in the 40kGD about game balance, you have a few minority of people such as Peregrine who accurately reflect what they feel is wrong with the game in a detailed, civil manner to which a lot of people can agree with (myself included), however when a majority agree with it they will usually consume that info into their own views and inevitably warp it, mutilate it and make it lose the validity it once had to fit their own ideologies, leading to more heated discussions and at times, witch-hunts.
In addition as others have posted anonymity just exaggerates the ego of people and as a second point a lot of reasons why people think DD is so toxic is because under this internet mask people start confusing civility with entitlement and so crude language is seen as some badge of office in which people feel the need to berate others in any aggressive manner then just label it "entitlement", which always amuses me since I always hold the view that you can do both. For example in terms of criticism I see people commenting " This is , and here's why so do this instead!" which I don't understand to me as it seems counterproductive as it seems more provocative, inciting a heated discussion when there was no need for one at all; Instead I people would say "That's a cool concept, however I don't feel this may not work in they way you intend it to be for X, Y and Z and here's a way you may want to consider instead" make it feel much more inviting and therefore promote civil discussion instead.
A final point is that that tone is hard to express or communicate on the internet (hence why there is use of emoticons imo), so that lack of tone can also be misinterpreted to be something more aggressive than actually intended which can escalate.
When you all all mentioned above and smash 'em in a blender, you get the toxicity, but DD is not all that bad. P&M blogs are usually very good and other game systems are a very pleasant place to be, I've encountered very little snark in other game threads and a lot of it has a lot more enthusiasm (aside from AvP KS.. Ohhh boy you're in for a treat there).
My best advice to the OP is maybe take a break from DD for a bit, I know my 40k spirits were low from the toxicity in the 40k section, so I took a long break from DD and 40k as a whole, found the Batman Miniatures Game and enjoyed it. I then found joy in Ad. Mech and now I'm enjoying Dakka a lot more with a lighter heart, now I just laugh at some posters who beat the dead horse about certain armies being under powered, and although they may have my sympathies with their situation I just laugh at the scale of their crusade of how long they repeat the rhetoric over and over again in multiple threads just as much as I laugh at my old threads.
about it. It is the expression of a lack of respect towards the people you are having a talk/discussion with and the incapability to attribute any kind of merit to their opinion, which I would argue is the wrong way of tackling a discussion. Unnecessary snark is what turned the aforementioned gender-stereotypes discussions into a deplorable cesspit, as both sides were unwilling to face the other side as an equal and valid opinion.
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I remember being fascinated at the time by those discussions and how deep someone could care about some edge-case scenario that wouldn't come up that often. Hadn't thought about mauleed in years tho.
