This is not a hate thread, rather the opposite. I love my Windriders and the WK is just plain cool. I want to be able to play them without being TFG. So I have a list of optional changes to both units and I want to see if the community thinks they're fair. Please note, I want them to stay competitive, so if all you wish to do is nerf them into the ground, please do not comment.
For Windriders, I know many of you wish for 1 per 3 weapons, but since the kit comes with enough for all, I don't see that happening. So here are the options:
A) Make Windriders only able to bring 1 per 3 weapons and stay Troops, or take as many weapons and become Fast Attack. Basically sacrifice ObSec for firepower, like every other army. B) Make the Eldar Jetbike provide only a 4+ armour. Note that this change would effect Farseers and Warlocks as well. C) Make Scatter lasers a 15pt option, rather than 10.
I believe any 1 of those options would bring them down, but keep them competitive. Combining 2 of those might still be ok. All 3 and the bikes become rubbish. Personally, I like options B & C
WraithKnight changes: A) Make it 400pts before upgrades. Not really my favorite idea, but lots of people wound be happy. B) Keep it around 325pts w/ both shoulder guns coming standard on every build, but lower its wounds to 5. This option lowers its durability and requires more points spent on the shoulder guns.
The bike "fix" doesn't change the fact that they're undercosted. 25 ppm. Upgrade costs remain unchanged. Armor save reduced to 4+. 1 heavy weapon per squad.
Note, of course, that this "fix" should be accompanied by a "cross the board" price increase for all bikes.
lusciifi wrote: I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.
What would this even matter when formations are a thing?
lusciifi wrote: I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.
At 37 ppm, you are losing enough points per failed save that you'd actually think about not using them. That's perfect.
lusciifi wrote: I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.
What would this even matter when formations are a thing?
Losing 37 points to a single save is now in terminator territory. Heavy bolters become efficient.
lusciifi wrote: I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.
What would this even matter when formations are a thing?
Because ob-sec is a big deal and having it on the fastest unit in the game is op along with its firepower.
My vote on the bikes is B and C, and agreeing with Martel that scatter lasers should be 20 points on bikes (and a 10 point upgrade from a shuricannon on War Walkers; price can stay unchanged on Falcons and Wave Serpents). Autarchs and Shining Spears would keep their 3+ armor save, of course, since they have heavy aspect armor which would give them a 3+ on foot, too. Whole squads of bikes with shuricannons would be a little scary, but the shorter range and weaker armor makes them manageable (although they tear Tyranid MCs a new one.)
For the Wraithknight, I like A more than B, and the reason is that in most cases, I can kill one Wraithknight, even with my Sisters, Iron Hands or Dark Eldar. It's spam I have trouble with, and increased cost mitigates that better than dropping to W5, in my opinion.
lusciifi wrote: I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.
At 37 ppm, you are losing enough points per failed save that you'd actually think about not using them. That's perfect.
lusciifi wrote: I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.
What would this even matter when formations are a thing?
Losing 37 points to a single save is now in terminator territory. Heavy bolters become efficient.
But the bike itself is still undercosted. 17 points for that particular model with those particular special rules and that particular statline is just laughable.
25 ppm bike. Scatter lasers become 15 ppm.
Move the bike to fast attack. Degrade the armor save to 4+. And you can have all the heavy weapons you want.
Traditio wrote: The bike "fix" doesn't change the fact that they're undercosted. 25 ppm. Upgrade costs remain unchanged. 1 heavy weapon per squad.
Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage. I've been playing Eldar since 4th ed. They used to be 22ppm and could only get 1 Shuricannon per 3. Players only ever took them as late game objective grabbers, if at all. And I seemed to be the only player to ever take the Shuricannon upgrade. As soon as Jink made them Snapfire, I didn't even bother taking that.
What you are suggesting is a 75 point unit (before upgrades) that dies as easily as 3 Marines (Same T & save) that can't reliably damage anything (because getting into range means they die) and only gets to grab objectives. I've played that unit, it's boring.
I could agree to on Scatter Laser being 20pts on the Windriders as Martel732 suggests, but the base cost of the Windrider really is fine. The more I think about it, the more I think 20pt Scatterlasers really would work over the other suggested changes. It more than doubles the unit's points cost and might encourage palyers to play unti that don't have all Scatters, or even units with Shuricannons.
It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.
Traditio wrote: The bike "fix" doesn't change the fact that they're undercosted. 25 ppm. Upgrade costs remain unchanged. Armor save reduced to 4+. 1 heavy weapon per squad.
Note, of course, that this "fix" should be accompanied by a "cross the board" price increase for all bikes.
So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers? They might be undercosted by a few points, but their default weapon is a 12" A2 S4 gun. making them either fast objective grabbers, or a high risk unit that can't really put out a whole lot of damage. They're certainly not undercosted by 8ppm each. The scatter laser getting an increase in points along with a 1 per 3 would be fine though as it stops them from being the end all be all of troops.
Galef wrote:Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage.
IoW: "I still want to win all of my games, have unfair advantages and power game, I just don't want to look like I'm doing it."
Is that what you're saying?
The bike confers relentless, +1 toughness, the ability to jink as well as a ridiculous amount of mobility. That's not even taking into account the insane increase in armor saves (which they shouldn't have).
Compare a naked windrider bike to a dire avenger. Heck, compare it to a naked space marines bike. 17 ppm is a joke.
Bikes should actually have to pay for all of the special rules that they get, and especially windriders.
And that's on top of any considerations about upgrades.
What you are suggesting is a 70 point unit that dies as easily as 3 Marines (Same T & save)
Against AP 3 or better, the windriders are more durable.
that can't reliably damage anything (because getting into range means they die)
I could make the same complaint about a naked tactical squad. Put a scatter laser on the bike squad and you have something that's more expensive, has ridiculous mobility and can still fire 4 S6 shots per turn.
but the base cost of the Windrider really is fine.
Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.
lusciifi wrote: Now here's the real question, would 27ppm shuricannon bikes be better then 37ppm scat-bikes. At that point you are trading 12in of range for rending.
I'd say yes, generally speaking - but it would actually be a contest at that point. Shuriken cannons are pretty darn good weapons, and they massacre heavy infantry in numbers. That kind of capability potentially makes it worth getting close, and even if they're deadly, a unit that gets close and does damage is more interesting to play against than something that hops around 48" away doing the point-click-and-squish dance.
lusciifi wrote: Now here's the real question, would 27ppm shuricannon bikes be better then 37ppm scat-bikes. At that point you are trading 12in of range for rending.
The shuricannon can't kill IKs, Killing IKs from 36" away should be expensive.
"17 ppm is a joke. "
No one cares about the 17 ppm bike, because their offense is weak. BA roll out a couple Baal preds, and they all die.
Martel732 wrote: It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.
While I agree the Scatters should be 20pts on the bikes (but keep the cost lower on other platforms), how in the heck is a Scatterlaser equal to an assault cannon? Asscans have Rending and AP4, the only advantage Scats have is range.
Scats are more like Multi-lasers with +1 shot. I didn't see anyone complaining that Multi-lasers were broken when Chimera spam was a thing.
quote=Martel732 695961 8761909 null]
lusciifi wrote: Now here's the real question, would 27ppm shuricannon bikes be better then 37ppm scat-bikes. At that point you are trading 12in of range for rending.
The shuricannon can't kill IKs, Killing IKs from 36" away should be expensive.
The only way Scatter lasers can hurt IK's is if they are behind them, so probably have to be within 24" range, I'm not sure I see your point
Galef wrote:Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage.
Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.
Whitescars: Hit and run, +1S HoW (iirc), ATSKNF, combat squads, T5, skilled rider.
Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?
1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.
2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).
Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.
Martel732 wrote: It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.
While I agree the Scatters should be 20pts on the bikes (but keep the cost lower on other platforms), how in the heck is a Scatterlaser equal to an assault cannon? Asscans have Rending and AP4, the only advantage Scats have is range.
Scats are more like Multi-lasers with +1 shot. I didn't see anyone complaining that Multi-lasers were broken when Chimera spam was a thing.
Because the 12" range is far more valuable than AP4 and rending in practice. The AP4 is largely wasted on the tables everyone where likes to play on. The ones with so much terrain you can barely fit your models in. Rending is just a gak rule unless you've got dozens of shots. It doesn't help that every Imperial platform that can take an assault cannon sucks.
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jade_angel wrote: Actually it can, but has to be within 24" to do it, and has one less shot. So, it's *worse* at killing IKs, but can still do it by six-fishing.
Isn't shuricannon S5? Its' been that long since I've seen one.
Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.
Reavers are 16ppm jet-bikes with skilled rider, hit+run, rending HOW, combat drugs and power from pain. I have never heard anyone call reavers OP.
Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?
1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.
2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).
Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.
Irrelevant to the problems most people face. The base Eldar bike might be undercosted, but it is inconsequentially undercosted. The scatterlaser upgrade being undercosted is the problem.
Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.
Reavers are 16ppm jet-bikes with skilled rider, hit+run and rending HOW, combat drugs and power from pain. I have never heard anyone call reavers OP.
They also have a 5+ armor save and lack the option to take heavy weapons. I do think that reavers are undercosted.
Evidence? They are considered an auto-take for DE players.
Isn't shuricannon S5? Its' been that long since I've seen one.
S6 but one less shot then the scatter laser.
Ah.... so that's a problem. I'd have to make that bike 32 ppm. +15 pts for a shuricannon. S6 ROF 3 is too good to charge less. Basically we have to charge out the ass for mid STR high ROF in 7th ed since it counters basically everything.
Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?
1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.
2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).
Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.
Irrelevant to the problems most people face. The base Eldar bike might be undercosted, but it is inconsequentially undercosted. The scatterlaser upgrade being undercosted is the problem.
15 point scatter laser. 25 point windrider bike. 4+ armor. That would solve the problem real fast.
Martel732 wrote: It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.
While I agree the Scatters should be 20pts on the bikes (but keep the cost lower on other platforms), how in the heck is a Scatterlaser equal to an assault cannon? Asscans have Rending and AP4, the only advantage Scats have is range.
Scats are more like Multi-lasers with +1 shot. I didn't see anyone complaining that Multi-lasers were broken when Chimera spam was a thing.
Because the 12" range is far more valuable than AP4 and rending in practice. The AP4 is largely wasted on the tables everyone where likes to play on. The ones with so much terrain you can barely fit your models in. Rending is just a gak rule unless you've got dozens of shots. It doesn't help that every Imperial platform that can take an assault cannon sucks.
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jade_angel wrote: Actually it can, but has to be within 24" to do it, and has one less shot. So, it's *worse* at killing IKs, but can still do it by six-fishing.
Isn't shuricannon S5? Its' been that long since I've seen one.
Nah, they're S6 AP5 Assault 3.
You must play against some real jackweevils if you're not even seeing the odd Wave Serpent, Falcon or Vyper with a hull-mounted one. Yikes.
As for the assault cannon, it's the small numbers and sucky platforms that kills it, mainly.
Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?
1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.
2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).
Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.
Irrelevant to the problems most people face. The base Eldar bike might be undercosted, but it is inconsequentially undercosted. The scatterlaser upgrade being undercosted is the problem.
15 point scatter laser. 25 point windrider bike. 4+ armor. That would solve the problem real fast.
Too much of a nerf. +20 pt scatterlaser, +15 shuricannon fixes it. Charge a lot for what matters. They can even keep the 3+ armor.
Martel732 wrote: It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.
While I agree the Scatters should be 20pts on the bikes (but keep the cost lower on other platforms), how in the heck is a Scatterlaser equal to an assault cannon? Asscans have Rending and AP4, the only advantage Scats have is range.
Scats are more like Multi-lasers with +1 shot. I didn't see anyone complaining that Multi-lasers were broken when Chimera spam was a thing.
Because the 12" range is far more valuable than AP4 and rending in practice. The AP4 is largely wasted on the tables everyone where likes to play on. The ones with so much terrain you can barely fit your models in. Rending is just a gak rule unless you've got dozens of shots. It doesn't help that every Imperial platform that can take an assault cannon sucks.
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jade_angel wrote: Actually it can, but has to be within 24" to do it, and has one less shot. So, it's *worse* at killing IKs, but can still do it by six-fishing.
Isn't shuricannon S5? Its' been that long since I've seen one.
Nah, they're S6 AP5 Assault 3.
You must play against some real jackweevils if you're not even seeing the odd Wave Serpent, Falcon or Vyper with a hull-mounted one. Yikes.
As for the assault cannon, it's the small numbers and sucky platforms that kills it, mainly.
Eldar players have realized there is not a real reason to use much other than WK, scatbike, autarch, and warp spider, and seer councils.
Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?
1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.
2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).
Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.
They do if they're white scars, in addition to hit and run and +1 S HoW. And you said " best model (to which the bike is an upgrade)", which white scar bikers fall under (even if the bike isn't an upgrade for the bike squads)
Galef wrote:Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage.
Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.
Whitescars: Hit and run, +1S HoW (iirc), ATSKNF, combat squads, T5, skilled rider.
15 point scatter laser. 25 point windrider bike. 4+ armor. That would solve the problem real fast.
Of course it would fix your problem, because you would never see them on the table ever again. Please stop over correcting them! No one played 3 unupgraded bikes in the last codex, in which they were EXACTLY as they are now, but without Scatter lasers. What you are suggesting it to make them unplayable in competitive games.
Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?
1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.
2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).
Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.
Irrelevant to the problems most people face. The base Eldar bike might be undercosted, but it is inconsequentially undercosted. The scatterlaser upgrade being undercosted is the problem.
15 point scatter laser. 25 point windrider bike. 4+ armor. That would solve the problem real fast.
40ppm for T4/W1/Sv 4+, in a Fast Attack slot? Yeah, it would. You'd probably never see them again. You might see the odd Shining Spear squad here or there as objective snaggers. (Assuming they don't go up to 50ppm, which they shouldn't, because they already can't compete at 25ppm.)
37ppm for T4/W1/Sv 4+ in Troops, or only 27ppm with a shuriken cannon, that you might see. Hell, probably would.
Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.
Reavers are 16ppm jet-bikes with skilled rider, hit+run and rending HOW, combat drugs and power from pain. I have never heard anyone call reavers OP.
They also have a 5+ armor save and lack the option to take heavy weapons. I do think that reavers are undercosted.
Evidence? They are considered an auto-take for DE players.
Being one of the best units in a sub-par codex dosnt make the unit undercoated. It makes the rest of the codex over-costed.
Galef wrote:Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage.
Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.
Whitescars: Hit and run, +1S HoW (iirc), ATSKNF, combat squads, T5, skilled rider.
Forgot to mention Grenades
Good point, the ability to assault into/from cover, and a "free" S6 attack for one model at range or melee.
Do you think that all of the special rules that bikes gain over dire avengers are not worth 12 points? How about 10?
What are those special rules worth, Martel?
To me, nothing. All I care about is being disintegrated from long range by mid S, high ROF. They can have their bells and whistles. Won't save them from the DC.
Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."
Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."
[/sarcasm]
It's not about just grenades, it's ALSO grenades, the ability to assault into or from cover can be useful, especially on a fast unit like bikes.
lusciifi wrote: Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?
I don't mind it being GMC. I mind it being a cheap GMC. Make the WK badass, just make it pay for it.
Well personally I think the stomp rules dont work well and far too swingy, but I do see your point. If it did keep GMC status it should probably be around the 400pt range as suggested by the OP.
I'm not asking about "to you." I'm asking, objectively speaking, what are those special rules worth?
MoN is 2 ppm. Jet packs are 3 ppm. What's relentless worth? A jink save substantially increases a model's durability while not harming its mobility or ability to assault in the least.
And jetbikes have even better special rules, especially eldar jetbikes.
lusciifi wrote: Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?
I don't mind it being GMC. I mind it being a cheap GMC. Make the WK badass, just make it pay for it.
Well personally I think the stomp rules dont work well and far too swingy, but I do see your point. If it did keep GMC status it should probably be around the 400pt range as suggested by the OP.
Any list can have the most badass thing ever, as long it is appropriately expensive. Want to be immune to 80% of the weapons in the game? Fine. Just pay out the ass for it. I think IK are actually overcosted given how many weapons out there can glance out AV 12. Not by much, though, which makes them an acceptable unit in comparison to WK.
Wolfblade wrote:It's not about just grenades, it's ALSO grenades, the ability to assault into or from cover can be useful, especially on a fast unit like bikes.
ITT:
"Naked space marine bikes are much better than naked windriders."
Hey, galef, you want to trade? You can have space marines bikes, and we'll take the windriders. You up for it, man?
I'm not asking about "to you." I'm asking, objectively speaking, what are those special rules worth?
MoN is 2 ppm. Jet packs are 3 ppm. What's relentless worth? A jink save substantially increases a model's durability while not harming its mobility or ability to assault in the least.
And jetbikes have even better special rules, especially eldar jetbikes.
What's that add up to?
Jink dosn't double your durability. Most troops sit in cover and have a 4+ cover save non-stop, without having to snapshot as well.
I'm not asking about "to you." I'm asking, objectively speaking, what are those special rules worth?
MoN is 2 ppm. Jet packs are 3 ppm. What's relentless worth? A jink save substantially increases a model's durability while not harming its mobility or ability to assault in the least.
And jetbikes have even better special rules, especially eldar jetbikes.
What's that add up to?
Objectively? Not much. I'd ignore the 17 ppm version of jetbikes until I wanted an objective they had. Relentless doesn't matter if your gun is weak. Jink doesn't matter if I'm not shooting at you. Jet pack doesn't matter if I'm ignoring you anyway. The shuricannon and the scatterlaser are the enablers. That's why they should be doubling the cost of the unit or more.
Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."
[/sarcasm]
Not saying they need grenades. Goodness know they are plenty of unit that have them that don't need them (cough Dire Avengers). I am comparing your list on situational rules that Jetbikes have and making the point that Marines have a tons of situational rules as well, making their equal points cost relevant.
Wolfblade wrote:It's not about just grenades, it's ALSO grenades, the ability to assault into or from cover can be useful, especially on a fast unit like bikes.
ITT:
"Naked space marine bikes are much better than naked windriders."
Hey, galef, you want to trade? You can have space marines bikes, and we'll take the windriders. You up for it, man?
Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons
Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."
[/sarcasm]
Not saying they need grenades. Goodness know they are plenty of unit that have them that don't need them (cough Dire Avengers). I am comparing your list on situational rules that Jetbikes have and making the point that Marines have a tons of situational rules as well, making their equal points cost relevant.
They're not situational. Are you telling me that your windriders' toughness 4 only occassionally comes up in a game? Your ability to move 12 in the movement phase while ignoring terrain and intervening enemy models only applies to certain situations? Your ability to move and fire heavy weapons at full BS is something that only really matters every few game or so?
Bull pucky.
Last game I played against a white scars bike army, however, neither combat squads nor grenades came up even once.
Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."
[/sarcasm]
Not saying they need grenades. Goodness know they are plenty of unit that have them that don't need them (cough Dire Avengers). I am comparing your list on situational rules that Jetbikes have and making the point that Marines have a tons of situational rules as well, making their equal points cost relevant.
They're not situational. Are you telling me that your windriders' toughness 4 only occassionally comes up in a game? Your ability to move 12 in the movement phase while ignoring the game only applies to certain situations? Your ability to move and fire heavy weapons at full BS is something that only really matters every few game or so?
Bull pucky.
None of this matters with only a 12" gun. There's a 100% chance they will fire that once vs BA before being ripped apart.
Wolfblade wrote:Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons
If you're running bare windrider bikes, you're playing them as wrong as if I were to run naked tacticals.
Wolfblade wrote:Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons
If you're running bare windrider bikes, you're playing them as wrong as if I were to run naked tacticals.
That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.
This the opposite case with the WK. There are so many benefits to being a GMC, that the base cost must be quite high to pay for all of those benefits. They are all benefits that really matter, too.
Martel732 wrote:That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.
You have to price both fairly. Even naked, a windrider bike is not just 3 ppm better than a tactical marine. It's not just 4 ppm better than a dire avenger.
lusciifi wrote: Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?
I don't mind it being GMC. I mind it being a cheap GMC. Make the WK badass, just make it pay for it.
Well personally I think the stomp rules dont work well and far too swingy, but I do see your point. If it did keep GMC status it should probably be around the 400pt range as suggested by the OP.
Any list can have the most badass thing ever, as long it is appropriately expensive. Want to be immune to 80% of the weapons in the game? Fine. Just pay out the ass for it. I think IK are actually overcosted given how many weapons out there can glance out AV 12. Not by much, though, which makes them an acceptable unit in comparison to WK.
Kind of off topic but do you think that a knight is more or less durable in an average game compared to a WK. AV12 is about the same as T8 and the IK has the better invuln. For me the issue is the ranged D offence, not the defense.
Martel732 wrote:That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.
You have to price both fairly. Even naked, a windrider bike is not just 3 ppm better than a tactical marine. It's not just 4 ppm better than a dire avenger.
No, you really don't. I've already explained why the base windrider's cost doesn't matter. Only properties that affect the game state should be costly.
Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."
[/sarcasm]
Not saying they need grenades. Goodness know they are plenty of unit that have them that don't need them (cough Dire Avengers). I am comparing your list on situational rules that Jetbikes have and making the point that Marines have a tons of situational rules as well, making their equal points cost relevant.
They're not situational. Are you telling me that your windriders' toughness 4 only occassionally comes up in a game? Your ability to move 12 in the movement phase while ignoring the game only applies to certain situations? Your ability to move and fire heavy weapons at full BS is something that only really matters every few game or so?
Bull pucky.
Last game I played against a white scars bike army, however, neither combat squads nor grenades came up even once.
You mean marine bikers? The unit that moves 12", and fires their guns at full BS?
lusciifi wrote: Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?
I don't mind it being GMC. I mind it being a cheap GMC. Make the WK badass, just make it pay for it.
Well personally I think the stomp rules dont work well and far too swingy, but I do see your point. If it did keep GMC status it should probably be around the 400pt range as suggested by the OP.
Any list can have the most badass thing ever, as long it is appropriately expensive. Want to be immune to 80% of the weapons in the game? Fine. Just pay out the ass for it. I think IK are actually overcosted given how many weapons out there can glance out AV 12. Not by much, though, which makes them an acceptable unit in comparison to WK.
Kind of off topic but do you think that a knight is more or less durable in an average game compared to a WK. AV12 is about the same as T8 and the IK has the better invuln. For me the issue is the ranged D offence, not the defense.
Way less, because no armor save. AV 12 is a joke compared to T8 because of FNP and armor save.
Wolfblade wrote:Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons
If you're running bare windrider bikes, you're playing them as wrong as if I were to run naked tacticals.
Woah woah, moving the goal post again? You started out complaining about naked wind riders, and how they're undercosted, which is what I'm going on. No question that they're either OP or undercosted once they all get scatter lasers.
Wolfblade wrote:Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons
If you're running bare windrider bikes, you're playing them as wrong as if I were to run naked tacticals.
That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.
This the opposite case with the WK. There are so many benefits to being a GMC, that the base cost must be quite high to pay for all of those benefits. They are all benefits that really matter, too.
Dude Traditio, if you think bare windriders are such garbage, why do you insist on them being 25ppm? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read all day.
Martel's got the right idea. Leave the 17ppm windriders alone, but jack up the price on the thing that truly makes them formidable: the dang gun!. 20pt Scatter lasers are a good idea for Windriders, but I'm not sure about the Shuricannon. At 15pts, you still might not see them over Scats, so keep them 10.
Martel732 wrote:That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.
You have to price both fairly. Even naked, a windrider bike is not just 3 ppm better than a tactical marine. It's not just 4 ppm better than a dire avenger.
No, you really don't. I've already explained why the base windrider's cost doesn't matter. Only properties that affect the game state should be costly.
I'm sorry, but I'm assuming, a priori, that the proposition: "Every model should be appropriately costed given its properties, with or without upgrades" is true or is the case.
If you disagree, then that's your opinion, but it's not something I'm going to budge on.
Wolfblade wrote:Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons
If you're running bare windrider bikes, you're playing them as wrong as if I were to run naked tacticals.
That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.
This the opposite case with the WK. There are so many benefits to being a GMC, that the base cost must be quite high to pay for all of those benefits. They are all benefits that really matter, too.
Dude Traditio, if you think bare windriders are such garbage, why do you insist on them being 25ppm? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read all day.
Do you think that a naked tactical is garbage?
You do?
Cool. Would you mind if they were 8 ppm?
Martel's got the right idea. Leave the 17ppm windriders alone, but jack up the price on the thing that truly makes them formidable: the dang gun!. 20pt Scatter lasers are a good idea for Windriders, but I'm not sure about the Shuricannon. At 15pts, you still might not see them over Scats, so keep them 10.
--
Compare naked windriders to naked space marine bikes. Are they much better? Much worse? Or about even?
If they have the same in-game utility, they should cost the same.
Wolfblade wrote:Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons
If you're running bare windrider bikes, you're playing them as wrong as if I were to run naked tacticals.
That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.
This the opposite case with the WK. There are so many benefits to being a GMC, that the base cost must be quite high to pay for all of those benefits. They are all benefits that really matter, too.
Dude Traditio, if you think bare windriders are such garbage, why do you insist on them being 25ppm? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read all day.
Martel's got the right idea. Leave the 17ppm windriders alone, but jack up the price on the thing that truly makes them formidable: the dang gun!. 20pt Scatter lasers are a good idea for Windriders, but I'm not sure about the Shuricannon. At 15pts, you still might not see them over Scats, so keep them 10.
--
At 27 ppm, they are still 75% as effective vs tanks and give up 12" range. I'd have to playtest it. GW has made medium str high ROF way too good.
"Compare naked windriders to naked space marine bikes. Are they much better? Much worse? Or about even? "
It doesn't matter. They both are irrelevant and relatively weak.
lusciifi wrote: Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?
I don't mind it being GMC. I mind it being a cheap GMC. Make the WK badass, just make it pay for it.
Well personally I think the stomp rules dont work well and far too swingy, but I do see your point. If it did keep GMC status it should probably be around the 400pt range as suggested by the OP.
Any list can have the most badass thing ever, as long it is appropriately expensive. Want to be immune to 80% of the weapons in the game? Fine. Just pay out the ass for it. I think IK are actually overcosted given how many weapons out there can glance out AV 12. Not by much, though, which makes them an acceptable unit in comparison to WK.
Kind of off topic but do you think that a knight is more or less durable in an average game compared to a WK. AV12 is about the same as T8 and the IK has the better invuln. For me the issue is the ranged D offence, not the defense.
Way less, because no armor save. AV 12 is a joke compared to T8 because of FNP and armor save.
Most weapons that reliably do damage to T8 have low AP anyways, its basically 4++ on the IK vs 5+ FNP on the WK. AV12 also serves to stop S5/poison/sniper in its tracks. At least when I play my tau I know a WK is an easier unit for me to kill.
The WK is still the better unit (its cheaper and has ranged D). But not in terms of toughness.
Martel732 wrote:That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.
You have to price both fairly. Even naked, a windrider bike is not just 3 ppm better than a tactical marine. It's not just 4 ppm better than a dire avenger.
No, you really don't. I've already explained why the base windrider's cost doesn't matter. Only properties that affect the game state should be costly.
I'm sorry, but I'm assuming, a priori, that the proposition: "Every model should be appropriately costed given its properties, with or without upgrades" is true or is the case.
If you disagree, then that's your opinion, but it's not something I'm going to budge on.
Wolfblade wrote:Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons
If you're running bare windrider bikes, you're playing them as wrong as if I were to run naked tacticals.
That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.
This the opposite case with the WK. There are so many benefits to being a GMC, that the base cost must be quite high to pay for all of those benefits. They are all benefits that really matter, too.
Dude Traditio, if you think bare windriders are such garbage, why do you insist on them being 25ppm? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read all day.
Martel's got the right idea. Leave the 17ppm windriders alone, but jack up the price on the thing that truly makes them formidable: the dang gun!. 20pt Scatter lasers are a good idea for Windriders, but I'm not sure about the Shuricannon. At 15pts, you still might not see them over Scats, so keep them 10.
--
Compare naked windriders to naked space marine bikes. Are they much better? Much worse? Or about even?
If they have the same in-game utility, they should cost the same.
Naked windriders are about the same, way easier to kill, much worse guns, and worse leadership (marines have ATSKNF), but grab objectives at the last minute much better. They're pretty fairly costed, it's their guns that are too cheap, which is why the guns should go up in price, not the windriders thermselves.
Naked Windriders do *not* have the same role as naked Marine bikers. Windriders really only maneuver well. Marine bikers are skirmishes and bullies. Windriders have an easier time sniping an objective. Marines can do that too, but worse. H9wever, Marine bikers' small arms are still usefully against chaff units, and even naked can assault most back fielder's successfully.
They have different roles. The Marine version is worth a bit more naked.
Wolfblade wrote:Naked windriders are about the same
And therefore should cost the same.
21 ppm minimum (the current cost of SM bikes). 24 ppm ideally (which is what SM bikes should cost).
I said "about", you then proceeded to ignore everything else as norm.
Both are fairly costed, neither has great damage output when naked, marines are much better at surviving while windriders are better objective grabbers late game (and that's all they do).
Wolfblade wrote:Naked windriders are about the same
And therefore should cost the same.
21 ppm minimum (the current cost of SM bikes). 24 ppm ideally (which is what SM bikes should cost).
I said "about", you then proceeded to ignore everything else as norm.
Both are fairly costed, neither has great damage output when naked, marines are much better at surviving while windriders are better objective grabbers late game (and that's all they do).
Wolfblade wrote:Naked windriders are about the same
And therefore should cost the same.
21 ppm minimum (the current cost of SM bikes). 24 ppm ideally (which is what SM bikes should cost).
I said "about", you then proceeded to ignore everything else as norm.
Both are fairly costed, neither has great damage output when naked, marines are much better at surviving while windriders are better objective grabbers late game (and that's all they do).
Are windriders only 3 ppm better than dire avengers? Yes or no?
Wolfblade wrote:Naked windriders are about the same
And therefore should cost the same.
21 ppm minimum (the current cost of SM bikes). 24 ppm ideally (which is what SM bikes should cost).
I said "about", you then proceeded to ignore everything else as norm.
Both are fairly costed, neither has great damage output when naked, marines are much better at surviving while windriders are better objective grabbers late game (and that's all they do).
Are windriders only 3 ppm better than dire avengers? Yes or no?
Yes. Avengers have better damage output, leadership, and decent mobility with an 18" gun and battle focus And they're actually 4ppm, not 3ppm. On average, the dire avengers will only be 1.5" slower than the bikes. Do you have any counter argument as to why the bikes aren't?
Avengers: Better range, counterattack, better LD, better melee (especially with an exarch), grenades, but slightly slower and only T3 with a 4+.
Windriders: faster (especially when turboboosting), crap shooting without upgrades, easy to break when run in minimum squads (as in, 1 model = LD test which is only passed something like 60% of the time iirc)
Martel: Very true, no one cares about naked windriders or bikes
It's harder to get cover on a jetbike, too. Jinking makes your offense crap. Everything's fine if the guns are costed appropriately, because it's they synergy of the guns with the bike that becomes powerful.
I'm not appealing to GW. I'm appealing to the fact that 17 ppm naked bikes can't hurt me without getting crushed in return and can't hold any objective I care to take. With 12" gun, you are looking at getting hit with every possible form of retaliation.
It's the same reason that DK aren't nearly as problematic as Riptides.
Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.
Reavers are 16ppm jet-bikes with skilled rider, hit+run, rending HOW, combat drugs and power from pain. I have never heard anyone call reavers OP.
They are hands down the best unit dark eldar have. Yet they have a MF 5+ armor save and t3 and are a close combat unit with 1 base attack and they come with a spliter rifle that isn't twin linked. Stop for a second...realize the fact that several AP 5 weapons have ignores cover standard and youll see how they aren't OP and have weakness.
Jetbikes are basically always going to get a save throw. Can take insanely good weapons to be made mobile on a relentless bike AND are objective secured in a CAD.
Is there a reason peope still keep replying to Tradito when we all know he's a troll that ruins these threads?
On topic, I'd personally make them a base 20ppm, 4+ armour, move them back to Fast Attack and make the Scatter Laser a 15pt upgrade (4 Shuribikes would then cost the same as 3 Scatbikes with the same number of shots) but allow them all to still take heavy weapons. They'd still have the significant damage out put they currently have but pay more for it and can't be spammed in 6 min squads with Ob Sec.
In fact I'd increase the cost of the Scatter Laser by 5pts for anything that can take them.
As for the Wraithknight, I'd keep the 300pt base cost, but have him naked at that point. Let him change the right arm for a Suncannon at 25pts, a Heavy Wraithcannon at 50pts or a Ghostglaive at 50pts. For the left arm it can take either a Shimmershield for 40pts of a Heavy Wraithcannon for 50pts.
Naked Windriders are fine just make shuriken 15pts and scatterlaser 20pts. WK 400pts base and done with that. The best SM bike option is the grav gun which has an 18 inch range. That means they have to be much closer to the target. Also means their costs for what they have are appropriate. Especially considering they can have a max of 3 grav guns with one being a one shot weapon. Hardly op or game breaking. The command squad pays through the nose on all its upgrades and is appropriately costed. Taking a command squad is a HUGE points investment (but a better one than terminators lol).
Imateria wrote: Is there a reason peope still keep replying to Tradito when we all know he's a troll that ruins these threads?
On topic, I'd personally make them a base 20ppm, 4+ armour, move them back to Fast Attack and make the Scatter Laser a 15pt upgrade (4 Shuribikes would then cost the same as 3 Scatbikes with the same number of shots) but allow them all to still take heavy weapons. They'd still have the significant damage out put they currently have but pay more for it and can't be spammed in 6 min squads with Ob Sec.
Before you insist on calling me a troll, I wish to note that, in your answer, you've basically presupposed the very things that I've been arguing in this thread.
Just think for a moment about how you arrived to that 20 ppm number. Chances are, you looked at tactical marines and noted that space marine bikes cost 7 points more. You looked at ork boys in 'eavy armor and then looked over at ork warbikers, and you probably noted that they are about 8 points more. You may have looked at wyches, then looked at dark reavers, and then noted (possibly in sheer disbelief) that the bike costs roughly 6 ppm more. Perhaps you looked at scouts, and then saw that scout bikes are 7 ppm more. And you probably considered the fact that windriders are supposed to be an upgraded version of guardians, and found that windriders cost 7 ppm more.
So you said to yourself: "Y'know, it looks like GW values bikes at roughly 7 ppm. Windrider bikes, in terms of their capabilities, are much closer to dire avengers than to guardians. Look at that 4+ save, after all. So let's add 7 points to that. 20 points."
So, in point of fact, you actually underwent a reasoning process very similar to my own. And note the similarity of your proposal to mine. I propose a 40 point scatter bike. You propose a 35 point scatter bike. That's the difference between a space marine terminator in 6th edition and the same exact thing in 7th edition. Five points.
The only difference between me and you on this is I ask the question: "Is 7 points a fair representation of how much better the bike model is to its non-bike counterpart?" And I answer "No." A forteriori 6 points is not (for dark eldar reavers). A forteriori 4 points is not (the difference between dire avengers and windrider bikes).
How much is relentless, increased mobility, a jink save and +1 toughness worth (not to mention any weapons the bike may come with)?
And is it fair to price a jetbike at the same price as a regular bike? And an eldar jetbike the same price as a non-eldar jetbike?
Ponder these things.
10 ppm for regular bikes. At least 12 for regular jetbikes.
No less than 25 points for a windrider with a 4+ save.
A Windrider naked is basically a worse Shining Spear.
Shining Spears are clearly overpriced at 25ppm.
How could a Windrider be worth that?
As for your formula, how much is Relentless worth on a model with only an Assault weapon? If your answer is anything but 0, there is a problem. If your answer is 0, you just broke the a la carte pricing you're pushing.
Bharring wrote: A Windrider naked is basically a worse Shining Spear.
Shining Spears are clearly overpriced at 25ppm.
How do shining spears compare to naked space marine bikes?
As for your formula, how much is Relentless worth on a model with only an Assault weapon? If your answer is anything but 0, there is a problem. If your answer is 0, you just broke the a la carte pricing you're pushing.
Practically speaking? Nothing. But I could make the same claim about devastator marines having combat squads and WS, S and I 4. But that's still factored into the cost of a space marine.
And I also wish to note that relentless, as part of the special rules of terminator armor, is clearly factored into the cost of a terminator with a power fist and stormbolter.
But if you think that relentless is so valueless, points wise, then you'll agree with me in calling for bikes to lose that special rule.
But even then, a 4+ jink save, +1 toughness and the increased mobility is still worth 10 points. A forteriori jetbike mobility.
A chaos space marine raptor with mark of nurgle costs 19 ppm, and he can't even jink. Ponder that.
Much of your pricing is based on the assumption that a valid points value can be assigned to each rule and wargear.
This is a counter example. This is proof positive that it cannot. As the same rules *must* be worth different values in different situations.
Shining Spears do very different things than SM bikes. I'd say they're worth less than SM bikes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've used Combat Squads, WS, S, and I numerous times. Not every game, but I do use them.
If you dont care for them, what you want are IG weapons teams.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A Chaos Space Marine raptor with MoN is T5, much better at CC, and still considered junk. With only marginally less dakka, but notably less mobility.
So the much tougher thing costs a little more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was not saying Relentless was worthless on bikes. You completely miss the point. The point is that it is useful for some, but of no effect on others. Thus, it must have both a zero and a nonzero value. Thus, there is not a single price point it can be worth.
Much of your pricing is based on the assumption that a valid points value can be assigned to each rule and wargear.
This is a counter example. This is proof positive that it cannot.
I disagree. I think that shining spears are undercosted. A bike with (a piece of wargear which is better than) a power sword that can be thrown at landraiders to glance them on 6s? With an automatic 4+ cover save (without even jinking) just so long as you moved a quarter of an inch? And power armor? All of that with power armor?
The only thing of which this is "proof positive" is just how spoiled Eldar players are.
An assault marine with power sword is 29 ppm.
Would you prefer the assault marine with power sword or the shining spear?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, feth that. A shining spear is basically wielding a better version of a relic blade. Relic blades are a 10 point upgrade, if you take honor guard, for the 15 point power weapon they come with.
A 25ppm model with MEQ survivability, 1 6" range shot, 1A, and a large footprint.
A VV is 19ppm base, 22 with Jet packs, 2A base, plus a CCW and pistol, and S4 stock. It's easier to LOS with. It's cheaper (but not by much) to LoS with. You can mix and match weapons.
VV suck too, but they aren't strictly inferior to Shining Spears.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Shining Spear only gets the attack on the first round of combat. And has 1/3 the attacks that a VV has. At lover S after the first round. No Grenades. No CT. No ATSKNF.
Bharring wrote: A 25ppm model with MEQ survivability, 1 6" range shot, 1A, and a large footprint.
"A 6" range shot"? Lolno.
How about that twin-linked shuriken catapult that comes with the bike?
A VV is 19ppm base, 22 with Jet packs
I forgot about the jump-packs.
Scratch that. The VV is 27 ppm with the power sword.
And can't jink.
But wait, he fills an elites spot!
Let's talk about the fast attack slot:
The assault marine with jump pack and power sword is 32 ppm.
And can't jink.
The Shining Spear only gets the attack on the first round of combat.
Yeah. It gets the better version of the relic blade the first round of combat. Then it's downgraded to a "mere" power sword. You eldar players have my [in]sincere sympathy.
Much of your pricing is based on the assumption that a valid points value can be assigned to each rule and wargear.
This is a counter example. This is proof positive that it cannot.
I disagree. I think that shining spears are undercosted. A bike with (a piece of wargear which is better than) a power sword that can be thrown at landraiders to glance them on 6s? With an automatic 4+ cover save (without even jinking) just so long as you moved a quarter of an inch? And power armor? All of that with power armor?
The only thing of which this is "proof positive" is just how spoiled Eldar players are.
An assault marine with power sword is 29 ppm.
Would you prefer the assault marine with power sword or the shining spear?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, feth that. A shining spear is basically wielding a better version of a relic blade. Relic blades are a 10 point upgrade, if you take honor guard, for the 15 point power weapon they come with.
And here is proof Traditio doesn't know what he's talking about. A Shining Spear is bogged down in combat by almost everything, cost way too much and die very easily. They aren't good and they certainly aren't undercosted.
The shining spear gives +3 strength, AP 3 and lance. An honor guard with relic blade can't glance a landraider.
And if I charge a unit with a relic blade they still have a strong weapon. A Shining Spear doesn't. You're grossly overselling the glance a land raider rubbish. You do it on a six with at absolute best three attacks.
Why do you use quotes when I didn't actually use the term? Broken? No. Undercosted? You betcha.
At their core, we are talking about a model that:
1. Has power armor.
2. Has a [better version of a] power sword that can potentially lance landraiders to death and wound tactical marines on 2s.
3. Has a 4+ jink without actually jinking.
4. Has outflanking.
5. Is on an eldar jet bike.
25 points is not appropriate for that model.
They're the Jetbikes I don't want, giving up most of the core utility of Jetbikes -- mobility and range.
Of course you don't want shining spears. They're undercosted, but not by all that much. There's much more OP, undercosted gak in the codex that you could be exploiting unfairly instead.
Look at it this way Traditio, in the SM codex a Jump Pack for a non-HQ is a 3pt upgrade and is almost universally seen as overcosted and not worth the price.
For 3pts per model more that a Tactical Marine, a naked Windrunner gets basically the same benefit + a 2D6" assault move and + Turboboost + Jink, as relentless means nothing on a model with an assault weapon.
That same model also lacks the Frag and Krak grenades which are like 1 point each.
That's pretty fair actually, all things considered. If they're undercosted it's only by at most a point or two, not the whopping 8 you're suggesting.
Personally I believe that Windriders should have never been troop choices; this is an artifact left over from the original Codex: Craftworlds that messed everything up; back then the Saim Hann craft world rule gave you the ability to take FA choices as your compulsory. When the Eldar Codex got updated in 4th edition, Codex: Craftworlds was invalidated.
To not render every Saim Hann player's armies invalid, they moved Jetbikes to Troops (which is weird since the same codex made Wraithguard troops under certain conditions, but Jetbikes got a free pass). When FoC shenanigans became the norm (i.e: 5th edition and onwards) Jetbikes should have been moved back to FA and only usable in Troops under certain circumstances, but they never did so likely because it was so long ago no one remembered why they actually got moved.
And then they got scatter lasers and the rest is history.
I say move them back to FA, and have Jetbike squads that take more than one "heavy" weapon (Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Laser) moved to Heavy Support and restrict unit sizes for them (like no extra models), like Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers in Necron Armies. Leave em there, and give Saim Hann a special FoC like they had before where FAs are the compulsory choices (similar to the CotGW detachment and Archangels with elites).
As for the Wraithknight, I honestly think it should cost 400 points bare minimum. Tyranids, the supposed kings of Monstrous and Gargantuan Creatures, don't get anything close to something that awesome.
Add 100 points to the wraithknight and the jetbikes should be 4+ save. Then allow up to three models in the unit take the heavy weapon and make scatterlasers strength 5.
Wind riders having 4+ and/or Scatterlasers being 15 points is something I'd be on board with.
However, I'm interested in the fix where the Wraithknight has all the shoulder guns standard and costs more. What was the reasoning behind that approach?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the easiest fix to Shining Spears is just giving them Hit And Run.
Why do you use quotes when I didn't actually use the term? Broken? No. Undercosted? You betcha.
At their core, we are talking about a model that:
1. Has power armor.
2. Has a [better version of a] power sword that can potentially lance landraiders to death and wound tactical marines on 2s.
3. Has a 4+ jink without actually jinking.
4. Has outflanking.
5. Is on an eldar jet bike.
25 points is not appropriate for that model.
They're the Jetbikes I don't want, giving up most of the core utility of Jetbikes -- mobility and range.
Of course you don't want shining spears. They're undercosted, but not by all that much. There's much more OP, undercosted gak in the codex that you could be exploiting unfairly instead.
People don't want Shining Spears because they aren't very good.
1. I'll agree that's good.
2,IF they charge and as I said before the Land Raider example is ridiculous. This is like arguing a Tactical Marine is OP because they can potentially kill most vehicles. You know what else wounds a Tactical Marine on 2's? Lascannons. Does that make a Dev squad OP?
3. A largely useless rule that should be replaced with Hit and Run.
4. Great. I can sit uselessly on a different board edge waiting for T3 to charge if I don't die or end up on the wrong side.
5. Okay. So what? Turbo boost isn't great because it can't charge, Assault movement isn't great because you want to charge and the gun is not going to make the unit good alone.
However, I'm interested in the fix where the Wraithknight has all the shoulder guns standard and costs more. What was the reasoning behind that approach?
The reasoning is because the Wraithlord comes stock with Shuricats or Flamers, then buys bigger guns. It would be cool for the WK to come stock with shoulder guns for a points increase, but only has 5W.
Lowering the wounds is an attempt at making the durability match what it was before it got FNP.
I am not an advocate of raising base costs of any unit, however raising the cost of optional wargear is a great idea (read 20pt Scats for Bikes)
So how about this for the WK:
Suncannon/Shield w 2 Shuricannons base cost: 300pts. Only 5 wounds
Swap either Shuricannon for Scatter Laser or Star cannon: free
Swap Suncannon/Shield for 2 Heavy Wraithcannons: 50pts
Swap Suncannon for Glaive: 50pts
That would bring the total cost of either D-wielding version to 350pts, but only has 5 wounds. That's a 50pts increase,(including mandatory shoulder guns) for a 17% decrease in durability.
And BTW, if we assume each wound is worth 50pts (295 / 6), this suggestion is equivalent to those that suggest a 400pt WK with 6 wounds, but I feel is a better compromise.
Why do you use quotes when I didn't actually use the term? Broken? No. Undercosted? You betcha.
At their core, we are talking about a model that:
1. Has power armor.
2. Has a [better version of a] power sword that can potentially lance landraiders to death and wound tactical marines on 2s.
3. Has a 4+ jink without actually jinking.
4. Has outflanking.
5. Is on an eldar jet bike.
25 points is not appropriate for that model.
They're the Jetbikes I don't want, giving up most of the core utility of Jetbikes -- mobility and range.
Of course you don't want shining spears. They're undercosted, but not by all that much. There's much more OP, undercosted gak in the codex that you could be exploiting unfairly instead.
People don't want Shining Spears because they aren't very good.
1. I'll agree that's good.
2,IF they charge and as I said before the Land Raider example is ridiculous. This is like arguing a Tactical Marine is OP because they can potentially kill most vehicles. You know what else wounds a Tactical Marine on 2's? Lascannons. Does that make a Dev squad OP?
3. A largely useless rule that should be replaced with Hit and Run.
4. Great. I can sit uselessly on a different board edge waiting for T3 to charge if I don't die or end up on the wrong side.
5. Okay. So what? Turbo boost isn't great because it can't charge, Assault movement isn't great because you want to charge and the gun is not going to make the unit good alone.
Dear sweet zombie Jesus... At this rate, we're going to see a thread soon arguing that Mutilators are OP obnoxious TFG cheese because they can match their weapons to what they're fighting!
It seems to me that what this whole thread has boiled down to in Trad's book is;
- Can unit 'X' kill a naked Tactical Marine?
- If yes, does it cost at least 3x a naked Tactical Marine?
- If no, nerf the ever living gak out of it until it costs at least 4x a naked Tactical Marine, because... "Reasons!"
Jetbikes themselves are fine. As pointed out ad nausium, it's the weapon upgrades that make them bonkers. +13pts/model per Shuricannon (making them a tidy 30pts/model total), and +20pts/model per Scatlaser.
Wraithknights I feel would be better off fixed by simply re-working entirely the core mechanics on GMC's.
Sure the Knight itself is a bit undercosted at base, but it's real power comes from just how bonkers the actual GMC rules are, especially the likes of Stomp and the near immunity to Poison, etc...
Wraithknights I feel would be better off fixed by simply re-working entirely the core mechanics on GMC's.
Sure the Knight itself is a bit undercosted at base, but it's real power comes from just how bonkers the actual GMC rules are, especially the likes of Stomp and the near immunity to Poison, etc...
Truer words, my friend, truer words.
If Stomp 6's were merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed, that would make the WK a lot more price appropriate.
Also if D-weapon 6's only did D3+2 wounds/HPs with no saves, it would be a big improvement.
However, I'm interested in the fix where the Wraithknight has all the shoulder guns standard and costs more. What was the reasoning behind that approach?
The reasoning is because the Wraithlord comes stock with Shuricats or Flamers, then buys bigger guns. It would be cool for the WK to come stock with shoulder guns for a points increase, but only has 5W.
Lowering the wounds is an attempt at making the durability match what it was before it got FNP.
I am not an advocate of raising base costs of any unit, however raising the cost of optional wargear is a great idea (read 20pt Scats for Bikes)
So how about this for the WK:
Suncannon/Shield w 2 Shuricannons base cost: 300pts. Only 5 wounds
Swap either Shuricannon for Scatter Laser or Star cannon: free
Swap Suncannon/Shield for 2 Heavy Wraithcannons: 50pts
Swap Suncannon for Glaive: 50pts
That would bring the total cost of either D-wielding version to 350pts, but only has 5 wounds. That's a 50pts increase,(including mandatory shoulder guns) for a 17% decrease in durability.
And BTW, if we assume each wound is worth 50pts (295 / 6), this suggestion is equivalent to those that suggest a 400pt WK with 6 wounds, but I feel is a better compromise.
--
Except thats more like a 30pt increase because a Wraithknight with shoulder weapons is currently around 320. I'm not sure taking a wound off it will actually help, there are plenty of ways to kill a Wraithknight currently but the problem is doing so before it earns double or more of it's points cost back, and this change will not help. Also, 2 Heavy Wraithcannons are worth a lot more than 50pts, hell the D-Cannon on the Wraithseer is a 65pt upgrade, and thats only got a 24" range and is hobbled by being a small blast.
Honestly I completely disagree with your philosphy of not raising the base cost of units, there are too many examples where reducing the units abilities to match their points cost will render them incapable of performing the role they were designed for.
Agreed on that, and along with the proposed scatbike fixes and the erratum on Warp Spiders, might go a long way toward making Eldar lists a bit more diverse. (I mean, really, there are tons of strong options, people...)
So back in the 6th ed codex, I relied on 2 of the MC WKs as my only ranged anti-tank. I did not want them to make the WK a GMC for the very reason that doing so would make it 400pts and mean I'd only get to field 1. I have dealt with the fact that I can only need 1 WK, even though I own 3. If the WK started out as a GMC LoW for 400pts, I only would own 1
Is the WK worth 400pts? Yes of course, but only if the shoulder guns are included in that cost and only for the Wraithcannon or Sword Board version. No one takes the Suncannon WK, it should be 350pts at most (including shoulder guns)
Experiment 626 wrote: It seems to me that what this whole thread has boiled down to in Trad's book is;
- Can unit 'X' kill a naked Tactical Marine?
- If yes, does it cost at least 3x a naked Tactical Marine?
- If no, nerf the ever living gak out of it until it costs at least 4x a naked Tactical Marine, because... "Reasons!"
Jetbikes themselves are fine. As pointed out ad nausium, it's the weapon upgrades that make them bonkers.
More like:
- Is unit X Eldar?
- Yes, it's broken, must be nerfed
- No? Does it kill naked Tacmarines?
- Yes? Nerf it!
- No? ...
Technically, that stupid, worthless spear is a weapon upgrade to a Jetbike. And we all know that Jetbikes with Spears are the exact opposite of "bonkers". It's actually a downgrade in utility per point effectiveness compared to a naked jetbike.
Almost nothing mows down tac marines faster than a warden IK with stormspear launcher. I guess a renegade with double avengers. But no one is calling for a nerf because AV 12 HP 6 is not that difficult to take down. Compare to T8 W6 free FNP with no "explodes" possible.
However, I'm interested in the fix where the Wraithknight has all the shoulder guns standard and costs more. What was the reasoning behind that approach?
The reasoning is because the Wraithlord comes stock with Shuricats or Flamers, then buys bigger guns. It would be cool for the WK to come stock with shoulder guns for a points increase, but only has 5W.
Lowering the wounds is an attempt at making the durability match what it was before it got FNP.
I am not an advocate of raising base costs of any unit, however raising the cost of optional wargear is a great idea (read 20pt Scats for Bikes)
So how about this for the WK:
Suncannon/Shield w 2 Shuricannons base cost: 300pts. Only 5 wounds
Swap either Shuricannon for Scatter Laser or Star cannon: free
Swap Suncannon/Shield for 2 Heavy Wraithcannons: 50pts
Swap Suncannon for Glaive: 50pts
That would bring the total cost of either D-wielding version to 350pts, but only has 5 wounds. That's a 50pts increase,(including mandatory shoulder guns) for a 17% decrease in durability.
And BTW, if we assume each wound is worth 50pts (295 / 6), this suggestion is equivalent to those that suggest a 400pt WK with 6 wounds, but I feel is a better compromise.
--
Public opinion has already spoken, Galef. Consider the poll I did a while back.
395 point wraithknight. It comes with absolutely no upgrades. You pay for upgrades as normal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experiment 626 wrote:Dear sweet zombie
1. Rule 1. I don't know whether or not this constitutes an offense against rule 1, but I do request that you display a bit more sensitivity to the religious views of other people.
At this rate, we're going to see a thread soon arguing that Mutilators are OP obnoxious TFG cheese because they can match their weapons to what they're fighting!
It seems to me that what this whole thread has boiled down to in Trad's book is;
- Can unit 'X' kill a naked Tactical Marine?
- If yes, does it cost at least 3x a naked Tactical Marine?
- If no, nerf the ever living gak out of it until it costs at least 4x a naked Tactical Marine, because... "Reasons!"
Then you haven't understood me. My argument is more like:
This unit has this statline, this wargear and these in-game capabilities. X points does not reflect the vlaue of that statline, wargear and in-game capabilities.
Jetbikes themselves are fine.
Thus far, nobody's actually provided a real argument in favor of this. The closest is Martel's "I've played against them and they don't really concern me." But absolutely no points analysis of the value of the statline or wargear has been undergone to show a conclusion contrary to mine, or else, a comparison of these units to similar units in other codices.
If they're undercosted in comparison to similar things in other codices, they're not fine.
If they're undercosted given their wargear, stat-line, etc., then they're not fine.
Sure the Knight itself is a bit undercosted at base, but it's real power comes from just how bonkers the actual GMC rules are, especially the likes of Stomp and the near immunity to Poison, etc...
If GMC simply conferred eternal warrior and no other benefits, then I would be satisfied with a wraithknight that's under 400 points.
Note, however, that Big Papa Smurf costs 275 points.
So back in the 6th ed codex, I relied on 2 of the MC WKs as my only ranged anti-tank. I did not want them to make the WK a GMC for the very reason that doing so would make it 400pts and mean I'd only get to field 1. I have dealt with the fact that I can only need 1 WK, even though I own 3. If the WK started out as a GMC LoW for 400pts, I only would own 1
Is the WK worth 400pts? Yes of course, but only if the shoulder guns are included in that cost and only for the Wraithcannon or Sword Board version. No one takes the Suncannon WK, it should be 350pts at most (including shoulder guns)
Just no. Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thus far, nobody's actually provided a real argument in favor of this. The closest is Martel's "I've played against them and they don't really concern me." But absolutely no points analysis of the value of the statline or wargear has been undergone to show a conclusion contrary to mine, or else, a comparison of these units to similar units in other codices.
Actually a lot of us have said this. You just ignore them because it doesn't fit your narrative.
I might comment on your threads now and then, but I have serious issues with your so called polls and how you hold the results you like up as the gospel and the ones you don't as the result of trolls. You seem like a passionate person, and I think you mean well; but you doing these things really shoots yourself in the foot. You can't have a biased poll or ignore results you don't like and still be taken seriously or seen as anything but a troll. And a poll for every little thing is not need. You just invite trolling when you make them all the time.
"" But absolutely no points analysis of the value of the statline"
My analysis is the only pertinent analysis. Models can be more potent or less potent than the sum of their individual stats. You can't assign a point value until you see them on the table multiple times.
WK is fair at 400 pts NAKED. You buy the upgrades from there. There is a price to be paid for being immune to 85% of the weaponry in the game. Don't like it? Start taking things away. No FNP. No poison immunity. Then you get to be cheaper. Not before. You have to pay for insane durability on a model that is default ST 10 AP 2 with stomp for offense. Oh and that moves 12" ignoring terrain.
NorseSig wrote: Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.
I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.
NorseSig wrote: Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.
I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.
So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone happy (including Eldar players):
-
1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP2 and Poison vs GMCs should only be -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before
2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably. Not only can the WK no longer get the "6" on the D table, but it now has double the chance to fail to even do damage. If you want, we can even lower the range of his cannons to 24"
3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs
It's much simpler to keep the current rules and make the WK worth what it's worth. You are simultaneously changing the value of a bunch of other units, as well.
Galef wrote: So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone (including Eldar players) happy:
1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before
2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably.
3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs
I'm sorry, but this is the same tired thing that you've been insisting on even before the poll I started. Public opinion is against you, Galef.
Those fixes are not actually fixes. They are only acceptable to eldar players.
395 point base wraithknight. No other changes. You pay for upgrades as normal.
That simple.
That's what the polls have demanded. That is where public opinion lies.
Galef wrote: So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone (including Eldar players) happy:
1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before
2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably.
3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs
I'm sorry, but this is the same tired thing that you've been insisting on even before the poll I started. Public opinion is against you, Galef.
Those fixes are not actually fixes. They are only acceptable to eldar players.
395 point base wraithknight. No other changes. You pay for upgrades as normal.
That simple.
That's what the polls have demanded. That is where public opinion lies.
Well I'm sorry if I don't wanna pay 400pts for a unit even if it is SUPER awesome. If I played Imperial Factions, I wouldn't pay that much for a IK either. Not because I think it isn't worth it, but because 400pts on 1 model is too many eggs in one basket. There's a reason why all IK or all WK armies don't win tourneys.
Please stop referring to your biased polls. None of my optional ideas were on your poll from the start because no one wants to put in the effort to come up with good, concise ideas. I am trying to come up with simple ideas that will "fix" multiple problems. Just slapping an extra 100pts onto something is a lazy fix. Lazy rules writing is how GW got us in this position in the first place
Galef wrote: So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone (including Eldar players) happy:
1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before
2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably.
3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs
I'm sorry, but this is the same tired thing that you've been insisting on even before the poll I started. Public opinion is against you, Galef.
Those fixes are not actually fixes. They are only acceptable to eldar players.
395 point base wraithknight. No other changes. You pay for upgrades as normal.
That simple.
That's what the polls have demanded. That is where public opinion lies.
Well I'm sorry if I don't wanna pay 400pts for a unit even if it is SUPER awesome. If I played Imperial Factions, I wouldn't pay that much for a IK either. Not because I think it isn't worth it, but because 400pts on 1 model is too many eggs in one basket.
You need to stop referring to your biased polls. None of my optional idea were on your poll from the start because no one want to put in the effort to come up with good, concise ideas.
I am trying to come up with simple ideas that will "fix" multiple problems. Just slapping and extra 100pts onto something is a lazy fix. Lazy rules writing is how GW got us in this position in the first place
A WK is a much safer basket than an IK. Yet, the IK certainly has its niche. I'm not sure Tyranid GMCs need these nerfs. The WK just needs to pay for it's specific combination of abilities. The Wraithlord is there as a cheaper alternative. I'd errata the Wraithlord to moving 9" and move through cover.
Galef wrote:Well I'm sorry if I don't wanna pay 400pts for a unit even if it is SUPER awesome. If I played Imperial Factions, I wouldn't pay that much for a IK either. Not because I think it isn't worth it, but because 400pts on 1 model is too many eggs in one basket.
Then stop using wraithknights. That simple.
You can't both be unwilling to pay the appropriate points cost for a model AND still insist that you're anything than someone who is exploiting unfair rules to your own advantage.
It just doesn't work that way.
Please stop referring to your biased polls. None of my optional ideas were on your poll from the start because no one wants to put in the effort to come up with good, concise ideas.
I am trying to come up with simple ideas that will "fix" multiple problems. Just slapping an extra 100pts onto something is a lazy fix. Lazy rules writing is how GW got us in this position in the first place
-
Your "fix," Galef, is this:
"Hey, why don't we slightly increase the cost of the wraithknight, decrease it's durability by 1/6th, and then add a bunch of free upgrades!"
To anyone who isn't an Eldar player, it's very clear to see that you're not actually wanting to nerf the wraithknight in any serious fashion.
Even after your "fix," the WK remains spammable and completely OP.
The answer is no. Just no. No to every bit of that.
Galef wrote: So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone (including Eldar players) happy:
1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before
2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably.
3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs
I'm sorry, but this is the same tired thing that you've been insisting on even before the poll I started. Public opinion is against you, Galef.
Those fixes are not actually fixes. They are only acceptable to eldar players.
395 point base wraithknight. No other changes. You pay for upgrades as normal.
That simple.
That's what the polls have demanded. That is where public opinion lies.
Public opinion... of dakkdakka, not the entire 40k community. And even then, public opinion isn't always right, I want to say that's a fallacy of some kind.
That being said, it's empirically true that the cost of the WK is much closer to 400 than 295. Even higher, factoring in the have-not codices. But I'll settle for 400.
Wolfblade wrote:Public opinion... of dakkdakka, not the entire 40k community. And even then, public opinion isn't always right, I want to say that's a fallacy of some kind.
If I were making the argument, "Public opinion holds x; therefore, x is true," that is a fallacy. Argumentum ad populum.
Contextually, it's not fallacious.
Galef hasn't actually given any arguments in favor of the fairness of his own solution over the solution of mine (simply increase the points cost by 100).
The purpose of this thread, it seems to me, is simply to gauge public opinion. He's proposing a couple of ideas and seeing how they "bounce" off of people.
I've already done that. Public opinion agrees with me.
Public opinion may be wrong in this case, but that doesn't change the fact that public opinion is against Galef's proposal.
More importantly, we can mathhammer all the possible weapons in the game, and determine that the WK can only be engaged successfully by an extremely narrow range of weaponry with any realistic chance of success. Most importantly, these weapons EXCLUDE single shot heavy weapons, which is why the 400 pt price tag is justified. Making bright lances, lascannons, melta guns, multi meltas, missile launchers, dark lances, etc all jokes should be expensive.
Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan than A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.
I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?
And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.
400pts is an acceptable cost for a WK fully decked out (cuz it's only 30pts for both shoulder guns, trying to meet in the middle here, just tact them on!). But I have to ask: Does anyone even know what the Suncannon does? B/c a WK with it is NOT worth 400pts.
Galef wrote: Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.
I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?
And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.
There's nothing wrong with making it cost what it is worth. You can have guns standard, but that's now 425 pts. The WK is supposed to be an apocalypse-level super model. That warrants powerful rules and a high price tag. I think it's thematically better without the nerfs and more cost.
Galef wrote: Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.
Of course you think that. You don't actually want to engage in fair fights.
If you wanted to engage in fair fights, you'd look at the statline, wargear, etc., realize that a model of that kind if worth at least 395 points, and pay accordingly.
Alternatively, you could proxy your eldar army for an ork army.
I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?
And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.
You're right, Galef. The Wraithlord has 2 mini-guns standard. So you should run your wraithknights with shoulder mounted scatter lasers.
Every time.
Base 430 points, including the scatter lasers (or 400 + however much the scatter lasers are worth).
Pay any additional points for upgrades as you feel desirable.
I also think there is a fundamental misunderstand of how compromising I'm being here. Using the IK crusader as a template, I could easily argue the WK should be 500 pts with double heavy wraith cannon.
"1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP2 and Poison vs GMCs should only be -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before
2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably. Not only can the WK no longer get the "6" on the D table, but it now has double the chance to fail to even do damage. If you want, we can even lower the range of his cannons to 24"
3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs "
Riptide ends up being a big winner here as well. Unacceptable. It's healthier to have the full powered WK there to keep pounding Riptides, but just pay more.
Martel732 wrote: I also think there is a fundamental misunderstand of how compromising I'm being here. Using the IK crusader as a template, I could easily argue the WK should be 500 pts with double heavy wraith cannon.
Yeah. Believe it or not, I'm literally the only person who's actually being "reasonable" from the get go. Martel wants to push it to 500 or more points. Galef wants to introduce "nerfs" which don't actually nerf anything.
I'm simply saying: "The matter is already settled. Public opinion has spoken. This is what most people want."
500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader. That's how crazy this thing is.
I'm going with 400, though, for argument's sake. If I were the sole designer, I'd strongly consider 500. Or at least significantly more than 400. It literally doesn't care about devastator squads or predators or leman russes because they'll never kill it before it's in melee.
Galef wrote: Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.
I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?
And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.
There's nothing wrong with making it cost what it is worth. You can have guns standard, but that's now 425 pts. The WK is supposed to be an apocalypse-level super model. That warrants powerful rules and a high price tag. I think it's thematically better without the nerfs and more cost.
Ok, I'll buy the "thematic" idea (although that's really what a Revenant are for). How about this: 395pts, shoulder guns included, 5 wounds, ranged D -1 (cuz I really think Distort should be this way on all weapons, D -2 on scythes)
A WK like this would still be very powerful, have to pay 70pts more than now, have 17% less durability AND can no longer 1-shot it's IK counterpart.
Galef wrote: Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.
I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?
And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.
There's nothing wrong with making it cost what it is worth. You can have guns standard, but that's now 425 pts. The WK is supposed to be an apocalypse-level super model. That warrants powerful rules and a high price tag. I think it's thematically better without the nerfs and more cost.
Ok, I'll buy the "thematic" idea (although that's really what a Revenant are for). How about this: 375pts, shoulder guns included, 5 wounds, ranged D -1 (cuz I really thing Distort should be this way)
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That's closer. Although the D-1 makes the 3++ Riptide basically immune to your shooting. The kicker for D vs vehicles is ignoring armor, not the "6" effect. You want the "6" effect vs other MCs with invuln saves. So I'm not really digging that nerf at all. It's still getting weaker vs Tau, which seems really bad to me. And weaker vs Dreadknights. Which the game also doesn't need because feth those things, too.
Martel732 wrote: 500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader.
Given that a Warhound Titan lays down 4 S(D) Large Blasts for ~750 pts, 500 pts for 2 S(D) shots isn't even close to being reasonable.
295 pts is fair for half the shots, losing blast.
You're also paying for the insane durability that the firepower is mounted on. The WK can't experience extra damage via "explodes", whereas I'm sure the Warhound can. You must pay for being immune to 85% of the game. Maybe 90%. 295 pts is not remotely fair for the durability/firepower combo.
Also, I'm using IK crusader as the measuring stick here. A far more common model than Warhound.
"Actually, one might reasonably argue that the WK is grossly overcosted compared to the WHT..."
That's closer. Although the D-1 makes the 3++ Riptide basically immune to your shooting. The kicker for D vs vehicles is ignoring armor, not the "6" effect. You want the "6" effect vs other MCs with invuln saves. So I'm not really digging that nerf at all. It's still getting weaker vs Tau, which seems really bad to me. And weaker vs Dreadknights. Which the game also doesn't need because feth those things, too.
Well D -1 double the change of doing nothing to any vehicle, because you go from Penning on a 2+ to a 3+. Oh, and I revised it to 395pts. That satisfies the +100pts *some* people are crying about, but also include the spare guns, -1W and D -1. With no other changes to the way GMCs or Stomp works (as I have suggested), those 4 changes would be fair.
lusciifi wrote: The taunar is 600 for T9, 10wounds, 4++/5+++, half the wounds on the first 6 on a D-hit.
It also has a 7' D-blast for a primary gun
Yeah, those things make WKs look like Wraith Lords. You need 3 WKs just to reliably kill that dang thing!
That's closer. Although the D-1 makes the 3++ Riptide basically immune to your shooting. The kicker for D vs vehicles is ignoring armor, not the "6" effect. You want the "6" effect vs other MCs with invuln saves. So I'm not really digging that nerf at all. It's still getting weaker vs Tau, which seems really bad to me. And weaker vs Dreadknights. Which the game also doesn't need because feth those things, too.
Well D -1 double the change of doing nothing to any vehicle, because you go from Penning on a 2+ to a 3+. Oh, and I revised it to 395pts. That satisfies the +100pts *some* people are crying about, but also include the spare guns, -1W and D -1. With no other changes to the way GMCs or Stomp works (as I have suggested), those 4 changes would be fair.
That's fine, but I don't like it getting weaker vis a vis Tau.
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lusciifi wrote: The taunar is 600 for T9, 10wounds, 4++/5+++, half the wounds on the first 6 on a D-hit.
It also has a 7' D-blast for a primary gun
That is actually significantly less firepower than the 4 X large blast D of the Warhound. But a lot more durability.
That's fine, but I don't like it getting weaker vis a vis Tau.
Well the Tau have there own set of issues. If you compare the stat line (read STAT line, not special rules) of a Riptide vs a WK, it can make sense for them to have the same # of wounds, after all the WK has T8. It's like comparing WraithGuard to Terminators. Sure the Termies have a 2+, but WG have T6.
Wolfblade wrote:Public opinion... of dakkdakka, not the entire 40k community. And even then, public opinion isn't always right, I want to say that's a fallacy of some kind.
If I were making the argument, "Public opinion holds x; therefore, x is true," that is a fallacy. Argumentum ad populum.
Aren't you? "I held a poll, the poll says X, therefore X is right." If you held a poll and the majority opinion was "Tac marines should cost 20 points each" would you be touting that opinion too?
Galef wrote: Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.
Of course you think that. You don't actually want to engage in fair fights.
If you wanted to engage in fair fights, you'd look at the statline, wargear, etc., realize that a model of that kind if worth at least 395 points, and pay accordingly.
Excuse me if I doubt your highly biased judgement based on past experience of wanting to nerf anything that might dare to be better than a Marine of any kind.
Am i the only one that thinks D-1 doesnt belong on a Heavy Wraithcannon?
Sure, it needs a nerf. Plus a ton of points seems fair. But these arent simpe Wraithcannons, theyre Heavy. These are what D weapons sbould be. The problem is the WK isnt paying the points for it.
Giving it -1W doesnt do as much as it sounds, as many forces are forced to simply endure it, and would still be forced to endure it at 5. It'd help, but not as much as a 400pt price tag.
Also, the shoulder guns shouldnt come stock. Some people maybe want to take it withiut them. You could absorb some of the standard cost into the model, and discount the upgrade the same amount, if you either wanted to incentivise getting them or if you feel they arent worth their base cost (not sure id agree with that one).
I really like the idea of you pay for the arm weapons too. Their different loadouts should cost different amounts.
Bharring wrote: Am i the only one that thinks D-1 doesnt belong on a Heavy Wraithcannon?
Sure, it needs a nerf. Plus a ton of points seems fair. But these arent simpe Wraithcannons, theyre Heavy. These are what D weapons sbould be. The problem is the WK isnt paying the points for it.
Giving it -1W doesnt do as much as it sounds, as many forces are forced to simply endure it, and would still be forced to endure it at 5. It'd help, but not as much as a 400pt price tag.
Also, the shoulder guns shouldnt come stock. Some people maybe want to take it withiut them. You could absorb some of the standard cost into the model, and discount the upgrade the same amount, if you either wanted to incentivise getting them or if you feel they arent worth their base cost (not sure id agree with that one).
I really like the idea of you pay for the arm weapons too. Their different loadouts should cost different amounts.
I agree with this. Make the baby wraith cannons D-1.
Martel732 wrote: 500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader.
Given that a Warhound Titan lays down 4 S(D) Large Blasts for ~750 pts, 500 pts for 2 S(D) shots isn't even close to being reasonable.
295 pts is fair for half the shots, losing blast.
You're also paying for the insane durability that the firepower is mounted on. The WK can't experience extra damage via "explodes", whereas I'm sure the Warhound can. You must pay for being immune to 85% of the game. Maybe 90%. 295 pts is not remotely fair for the durability/firepower combo.
Also, I'm using IK crusader as the measuring stick here. A far more common model than Warhound.
"Actually, one might reasonably argue that the WK is grossly overcosted compared to the WHT..."
Sounds like warhound is a glass cannon, really.
A Warhound Titan is AV14/13/12 with 2 Void Shields and 9 Hull Points. I wouldn't call it a glass cannon. Fact is, it's a very competitive model, and far more points-efficient than the WK or IKT.
In some ways, you using the IK Crusader as your measuring stick is not at all unlike some idiot using a Tac Marine/Rhino/AM/Devastator-filled CAD as the gold standard of fairness and balance...
Martel732 wrote: 500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader.
Given that a Warhound Titan lays down 4 S(D) Large Blasts for ~750 pts, 500 pts for 2 S(D) shots isn't even close to being reasonable.
295 pts is fair for half the shots, losing blast.
You're also paying for the insane durability that the firepower is mounted on. The WK can't experience extra damage via "explodes", whereas I'm sure the Warhound can. You must pay for being immune to 85% of the game. Maybe 90%. 295 pts is not remotely fair for the durability/firepower combo.
Also, I'm using IK crusader as the measuring stick here. A far more common model than Warhound.
"Actually, one might reasonably argue that the WK is grossly overcosted compared to the WHT..."
Sounds like warhound is a glass cannon, really.
A Warhound Titan is AV14/13/12 with 2 Void Shields and 9 Hull Points. I wouldn't call it a glass cannon. Fact is, it's a very competitive model, and far more points-efficient than the WK or IKT.
In some ways, you using the IK Crusader as your measuring stick is not at all unlike some idiot using a Tac Marine/Rhino/AM/Devastator-filled CAD as the gold standard of fairness and balance...
AV 13 sides save the thing. AV 12 would be death by scatterlaser. Still, not that impressive for a 750 pt model, defensively speaking. Mid STR, high ROF scrub off the voids, and then D weapons and melta drain the 9 hull points quickly. The lack of vulnerability to melta and AP 1 in general always shifts things in the GMCs favor. A lot.
We can use Stormsurge as a stick instead. The WK does not have finite D ammo and does not need synergistic support to fire its D weapons. It also has two more toughness, making autocannon and scatterlaser spam non-viable, unlike the Stormsurge. Using a full titan as a balancing point in 40K seems like a poor idea to me.
You are completely dancing around the insane durability of the WK.
Bharring wrote: Am i the only one that thinks D-1 doesnt belong on a Heavy Wraithcannon?
Sure, it needs a nerf. Plus a ton of points seems fair. But these arent simpe Wraithcannons, theyre Heavy. These are what D weapons sbould be. The problem is the WK isnt paying the points for it.
Giving it -1W doesnt do as much as it sounds, as many forces are forced to simply endure it, and would still be forced to endure it at 5. It'd help, but not as much as a 400pt price tag.
Also, the shoulder guns shouldnt come stock. Some people maybe want to take it withiut them. You could absorb some of the standard cost into the model, and discount the upgrade the same amount, if you either wanted to incentivise getting them or if you feel they arent worth their base cost (not sure id agree with that one).
I really like the idea of you pay for the arm weapons too. Their different loadouts should cost different amounts.
All Distort weapons being D -1 is meant to be a compromise between what they were (just str10) and what they are now. Full D at range should really be reserved for Titan level models (which the WK should not be) The "Heavy" part of the Heavy Wraithcannon is the fact that it has 3x the range of a regular Wraithcannon. IMO, if you are going to keep Full D on the Heavy cannon, make it range 24, or even 12
Bharring wrote: Am i the only one that thinks D-1 doesnt belong on a Heavy Wraithcannon?
Sure, it needs a nerf. Plus a ton of points seems fair. But these arent simpe Wraithcannons, theyre Heavy. These are what D weapons sbould be. The problem is the WK isnt paying the points for it.
Giving it -1W doesnt do as much as it sounds, as many forces are forced to simply endure it, and would still be forced to endure it at 5. It'd help, but not as much as a 400pt price tag.
Also, the shoulder guns shouldnt come stock. Some people maybe want to take it withiut them. You could absorb some of the standard cost into the model, and discount the upgrade the same amount, if you either wanted to incentivise getting them or if you feel they arent worth their base cost (not sure id agree with that one).
I really like the idea of you pay for the arm weapons too. Their different loadouts should cost different amounts.
All Distort weapons being D -1 is meant to be a compromise between what they were (just str10) and what they are now. Full D at range should really be reserved for Titan level models (which the WK should not be) The "Heavy" part of the Heavy Wraithcannon is the fact that it has 3x the range of a regular Wraithcannon. IMO, if you are going to keep Full D on the Heavy cannon, make it range 24, or even 12
You're back to Riptides and Stormsurges laughing at you. Just pay the points to be good. It's better than paying the points to be gak, like BA. It's a bit of shock in the current Eldar codex, I know.
You're back to Riptides and Stormsurges laughing at you. Just pay the points to be good. It's better than paying the points to be gak, like BA. It's a bit of shock in the current Eldar codex, I know.
D -1 is still better that what is was in the 6th ed dex, even against Riptides and Stormsurges. A WK with 36" range D -1 shots can still take on a wide variety of targets, without being the answer to other big targets. A CC WK should be the answer to the enemy's big stuff.
You're back to Riptides and Stormsurges laughing at you. Just pay the points to be good. It's better than paying the points to be gak, like BA. It's a bit of shock in the current Eldar codex, I know.
D -1 is still better that what is was in the 6th ed dex, even against Riptides and Stormsurges. A WK with 36" range D -1 shots can still take on a wide variety of targets, without being the answer to other big targets. A CC WK should be the answer to the enemy's big stuff.
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Better than in 6th doesn't make Tau respect you at range. Without the possibility of bypassing their invuln, the math heavily, heavily favors them.
NorseSig wrote: Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.
I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.
That's a good question.
In theory, at 1850 pts, you'd take 6 WKs vs 5 IKTs, but the IKTs would have their House / Lance formation bonuses and the WKs wouldn't.
I kinda want to proxy it out and see what would happen. I think it's an extreme Rock, that auto-wins against IKT Scissors, but auto-loses to Gladius Paper or Rending Hordes. And I think that is part of the danger of doing certain sorts of narrow comparisons of a unit like the IKT and the specific counter like the WK.
NorseSig wrote: Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.
I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.
That's a good question.
In theory, at 1850 pts, you'd take 6 WKs vs 5 IKTs, but the IKTs would have their House / Lance formation bonuses and the WKs wouldn't.
I kinda want to proxy it out and see what would happen. I think it's an extreme Rock, that auto-wins against IKT Scissors, but auto-loses to Gladius Paper or Rending Hordes. And I think that is part of the danger of doing certain sorts of narrow comparisons of a unit like the IKT and the specific counter like the WK.
My local has done the WK list vs IK list. The IK lost every time out of 10 games. If you include FW IK the odds get a bit better depending on what you take the IK tend to win 3/10 then. At least that seems to be the regular results in our group. It could be a YMMV thing.
NorseSig wrote: Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.
I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.
That's a good question.
In theory, at 1850 pts, you'd take 6 WKs vs 5 IKTs, but the IKTs would have their House / Lance formation bonuses and the WKs wouldn't.
I kinda want to proxy it out and see what would happen. I think it's an extreme Rock, that auto-wins against IKT Scissors, but auto-loses to Gladius Paper or Rending Hordes. And I think that is part of the danger of doing certain sorts of narrow comparisons of a unit like the IKT and the specific counter like the WK.
My local has done the WK list vs IK list. The IK lost every time out of 10 games. If you include FW IK the odds get a bit better depending on what you take the IK tend to win 3/10 then. At least that seems to be the regular results in our group. It could be a YMMV thing.
That sounds about right - IKTs are just about the perfect target for WKs. But that doesn't mean that WKs are unfair, any more than Tac Marines are unfair against Imperial Guardsmen.
That sounds about right - IKTs are just about the perfect target for WKs. But that doesn't mean that WKs are unfair, any more than Tac Marines are unfair against Imperial Guardsmen.
The WK isn't unfair so much as way too freaking cheap. The WKs ability to kill IK has nothing to do with it at all. Pretty sure the volume of fire from the Guardsmen would decimate the Tac Marines. That is what usually happens anyway.
