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lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Isn't shuricannon S5? Its' been that long since I've seen one.

S6 but one less shot then the scatter laser.

Ah.... so that's a problem. I'd have to make that bike 32 ppm. +15 pts for a shuricannon. S6 ROF 3 is too good to charge less. Basically we have to charge out the ass for mid STR high ROF in 7th ed since it counters basically everything.

Martel732 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?

1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.

2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).

Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.

Irrelevant to the problems most people face. The base Eldar bike might be undercosted, but it is inconsequentially undercosted. The scatterlaser upgrade being undercosted is the problem.

15 point scatter laser. 25 point windrider bike. 4+ armor. That would solve the problem real fast.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.

While I agree the Scatters should be 20pts on the bikes (but keep the cost lower on other platforms), how in the heck is a Scatterlaser equal to an assault cannon? Asscans have Rending and AP4, the only advantage Scats have is range.
Scats are more like Multi-lasers with +1 shot. I didn't see anyone complaining that Multi-lasers were broken when Chimera spam was a thing.

Because the 12" range is far more valuable than AP4 and rending in practice. The AP4 is largely wasted on the tables everyone where likes to play on. The ones with so much terrain you can barely fit your models in. Rending is just a gak rule unless you've got dozens of shots. It doesn't help that every Imperial platform that can take an assault cannon sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Actually it can, but has to be within 24" to do it, and has one less shot. So, it's *worse* at killing IKs, but can still do it by six-fishing.

Isn't shuricannon S5? Its' been that long since I've seen one.

Nah, they're S6 AP5 Assault 3.

You must play against some real jackweevils if you're not even seeing the odd Wave Serpent, Falcon or Vyper with a hull-mounted one. Yikes.

As for the assault cannon, it's the small numbers and sucky platforms that kills it, mainly.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?

1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.

2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).

Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.

Irrelevant to the problems most people face. The base Eldar bike might be undercosted, but it is inconsequentially undercosted. The scatterlaser upgrade being undercosted is the problem.

15 point scatter laser. 25 point windrider bike. 4+ armor. That would solve the problem real fast.

Too much of a nerf. +20 pt scatterlaser, +15 shuricannon fixes it. Charge a lot for what matters. They can even keep the 3+ armor.

Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?

jade_angel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.

While I agree the Scatters should be 20pts on the bikes (but keep the cost lower on other platforms), how in the heck is a Scatterlaser equal to an assault cannon? Asscans have Rending and AP4, the only advantage Scats have is range.
Scats are more like Multi-lasers with +1 shot. I didn't see anyone complaining that Multi-lasers were broken when Chimera spam was a thing.

Because the 12" range is far more valuable than AP4 and rending in practice. The AP4 is largely wasted on the tables everyone where likes to play on. The ones with so much terrain you can barely fit your models in. Rending is just a gak rule unless you've got dozens of shots. It doesn't help that every Imperial platform that can take an assault cannon sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Actually it can, but has to be within 24" to do it, and has one less shot. So, it's *worse* at killing IKs, but can still do it by six-fishing.

Isn't shuricannon S5? Its' been that long since I've seen one.

Nah, they're S6 AP5 Assault 3.

You must play against some real jackweevils if you're not even seeing the odd Wave Serpent, Falcon or Vyper with a hull-mounted one. Yikes.

As for the assault cannon, it's the small numbers and sucky platforms that kills it, mainly.

Eldar players have realized there is not a real reason to use much other than WK, scatbike, autarch, and warp spider, and seer councils.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?

1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.

2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).

Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.

They do if they're white scars, in addition to hit and run and +1 S HoW. And you said " best model (to which the bike is an upgrade)", which white scar bikers fall under (even if the bike isn't an upgrade for the bike squads)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage.

Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.

Whitescars: Hit and run, +1S HoW (iirc), ATSKNF, combat squads, T5, skilled rider.

Forgot to mention Grenades

 Traditio wrote:

15 point scatter laser. 25 point windrider bike. 4+ armor. That would solve the problem real fast.

Of course it would fix your problem, because you would never see them on the table ever again. Please stop over correcting them! No one played 3 unupgraded bikes in the last codex, in which they were EXACTLY as they are now, but without Scatter lasers. What you are suggesting it to make them unplayable in competitive games.

--

lusciifi wrote:
Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?

I don't mind it being GMC. I mind it being a cheap GMC. Make the WK badass, just make it pay for it.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?

1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.

2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).

Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.

Irrelevant to the problems most people face. The base Eldar bike might be undercosted, but it is inconsequentially undercosted. The scatterlaser upgrade being undercosted is the problem.

15 point scatter laser. 25 point windrider bike. 4+ armor. That would solve the problem real fast.

40ppm for T4/W1/Sv 4+, in a Fast Attack slot? Yeah, it would. You'd probably never see them again. You might see the odd Shining Spear squad here or there as objective snaggers. (Assuming they don't go up to 50ppm, which they shouldn't, because they already can't compete at 25ppm.)
37ppm for T4/W1/Sv 4+ in Troops, or only 27ppm with a shuriken cannon, that you might see. Hell, probably would.

Martel wrote:Too much of a nerf

What are your reasons for thinking so?

Do you think that all of the special rules that bikes gain over dire avengers are not worth 12 points? How about 10?

What are those special rules worth, Martel?

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.

Reavers are 16ppm jet-bikes with skilled rider, hit+run and rending HOW, combat drugs and power from pain. I have never heard anyone call reavers OP.

They also have a 5+ armor save and lack the option to take heavy weapons. I do think that reavers are undercosted.

Evidence? They are considered an auto-take for DE players.

Being one of the best units in a sub-par codex dosnt make the unit undercoated. It makes the rest of the codex over-costed.

 Galef wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage.

Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.

Whitescars: Hit and run, +1S HoW (iirc), ATSKNF, combat squads, T5, skilled rider.

Forgot to mention Grenades

Good point, the ability to assault into/from cover, and a "free" S6 attack for one model at range or melee.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel wrote:Too much of a nerf

What are your reasons for thinking so?

Do you think that all of the special rules that bikes gain over dire avengers are not worth 12 points? How about 10?

What are those special rules worth, Martel?

To me, nothing. All I care about is being disintegrated from long range by mid S, high ROF. They can have their bells and whistles. Won't save them from the DC.

Galef wrote:Forgot to mention Grenades

LOL.

Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."

[/sarcasm]

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:Forgot to mention Grenades

LOL.

Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."

[/sarcasm]

It's not about just grenades, it's ALSO grenades, the ability to assault into or from cover can be useful, especially on a fast unit like bikes.

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?

I don't mind it being GMC. I mind it being a cheap GMC. Make the WK badass, just make it pay for it.

Well personally I think the stomp rules dont work well and far too swingy, but I do see your point. If it did keep GMC status it should probably be around the 400pt range as suggested by the OP.

Martel wrote:To me, nothing.

I'm not asking about "to you." I'm asking, objectively speaking, what are those special rules worth?

MoN is 2 ppm. Jet packs are 3 ppm. What's relentless worth? A jink save substantially increases a model's durability while not harming its mobility or ability to assault in the least.

And jetbikes have even better special rules, especially eldar jetbikes.

What's that add up to?

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?

I don't mind it being GMC. I mind it being a cheap GMC. Make the WK badass, just make it pay for it.

Well personally I think the stomp rules dont work well and far too swingy, but I do see your point. If it did keep GMC status it should probably be around the 400pt range as suggested by the OP.

Any list can have the most badass thing ever, as long it is appropriately expensive. Want to be immune to 80% of the weapons in the game? Fine. Just pay out the ass for it. I think IK are actually overcosted given how many weapons out there can glance out AV 12. Not by much, though, which makes them an acceptable unit in comparison to WK.

Wolfblade wrote:It's not about just grenades, it's ALSO grenades, the ability to assault into or from cover can be useful, especially on a fast unit like bikes.

ITT:

"Naked space marine bikes are much better than naked windriders."

Hey, galef, you want to trade? You can have space marines bikes, and we'll take the windriders. You up for it, man?

 Traditio wrote:

Martel wrote:To me, nothing.

I'm not asking about "to you." I'm asking, objectively speaking, what are those special rules worth?

MoN is 2 ppm. Jet packs are 3 ppm. What's relentless worth? A jink save substantially increases a model's durability while not harming its mobility or ability to assault in the least.

And jetbikes have even better special rules, especially eldar jetbikes.

What's that add up to?

Jink dosn't double your durability. Most troops sit in cover and have a 4+ cover save non-stop, without having to snapshot as well.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel wrote:To me, nothing.

I'm not asking about "to you." I'm asking, objectively speaking, what are those special rules worth?

MoN is 2 ppm. Jet packs are 3 ppm. What's relentless worth? A jink save substantially increases a model's durability while not harming its mobility or ability to assault in the least.

And jetbikes have even better special rules, especially eldar jetbikes.

What's that add up to?

Objectively? Not much. I'd ignore the 17 ppm version of jetbikes until I wanted an objective they had. Relentless doesn't matter if your gun is weak. Jink doesn't matter if I'm not shooting at you. Jet pack doesn't matter if I'm ignoring you anyway. The shuricannon and the scatterlaser are the enablers. That's why they should be doubling the cost of the unit or more.

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:Forgot to mention Grenades

LOL.

Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."

[/sarcasm]

Not saying they need grenades. Goodness know they are plenty of unit that have them that don't need them (cough Dire Avengers). I am comparing your list on situational rules that Jetbikes have and making the point that Marines have a tons of situational rules as well, making their equal points cost relevant.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:It's not about just grenades, it's ALSO grenades, the ability to assault into or from cover can be useful, especially on a fast unit like bikes.

ITT:

"Naked space marine bikes are much better than naked windriders."

Hey, galef, you want to trade? You can have space marines bikes, and we'll take the windriders. You up for it, man?

Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons

 Galef wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:Forgot to mention Grenades

LOL.

Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."

[/sarcasm]

Not saying they need grenades. Goodness know they are plenty of unit that have them that don't need them (cough Dire Avengers). I am comparing your list on situational rules that Jetbikes have and making the point that Marines have a tons of situational rules as well, making their equal points cost relevant.

They're not situational. Are you telling me that your windriders' toughness 4 only occassionally comes up in a game? Your ability to move 12 in the movement phase while ignoring terrain and intervening enemy models only applies to certain situations? Your ability to move and fire heavy weapons at full BS is something that only really matters every few game or so?

Bull pucky.

Last game I played against a white scars bike army, however, neither combat squads nor grenades came up even once.

 Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:Forgot to mention Grenades

LOL.

Yes, Galef, I'm sure that every single game you play, you find yourself standing across from your opponent, looking at your windrider bikes, and thinking to yourself: "Gee, these things are so underpowered and overcosted. You know what would help them out? Grenades. They need grenades. They're practically worthless without them."

[/sarcasm]

Not saying they need grenades. Goodness know they are plenty of unit that have them that don't need them (cough Dire Avengers). I am comparing your list on situational rules that Jetbikes have and making the point that Marines have a tons of situational rules as well, making their equal points cost relevant.

They're not situational. Are you telling me that your windriders' toughness 4 only occassionally comes up in a game? Your ability to move 12 in the movement phase while ignoring the game only applies to certain situations? Your ability to move and fire heavy weapons at full BS is something that only really matters every few game or so?

Bull pucky.

None of this matters with only a 12" gun. There's a 100% chance they will fire that once vs BA before being ripped apart.

Wolfblade wrote:Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons

If you're running bare windrider bikes, you're playing them as wrong as if I were to run naked tacticals.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:Space marine bikers don't die to a stiff breeze when they try to shoot their guns (i.e., they don't have to be within 12") And it's not that SM bikers are better, it's that windriders aren't the massive murder machine you think they are when they don't have scatter lasers or shuri cannons

If you're running bare windrider bikes, you're playing them as wrong as if I were to run naked tacticals.

That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.

This the opposite case with the WK. There are so many benefits to being a GMC, that the base cost must be quite high to pay for all of those benefits. They are all benefits that really matter, too.

Martel732 wrote:That's why you load the cost into the GUNS.

You have to price both fairly. Even naked, a windrider bike is not just 3 ppm better than a tactical marine. It's not just 4 ppm better than a dire avenger.

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
Switching gears to the WK. How about just dropping it back down to an MC and keeping at the current point cost?

I don't mind it being GMC. I mind it being a cheap GMC. Make the WK badass, just make it pay for it.

Well personally I think the stomp rules dont work well and far too swingy, but I do see your point. If it did keep GMC status it should probably be around the 400pt range as suggested by the OP.

Any list can have the most badass thing ever, as long it is appropriately expensive. Want to be immune to 80% of the weapons in the game? Fine. Just pay out the ass for it. I think IK are actually overcosted given how many weapons out there can glance out AV 12. Not by much, though, which makes them an acceptable unit in comparison to WK.

Kind of off topic but do you think that a knight is more or less durable in an average game compared to a WK. AV12 is about the same as T8 and the IK has the better invuln. For me the issue is the ranged D offence, not the defense.