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This is not a hate thread, rather the opposite. I love my Windriders and the WK is just plain cool. I want to be able to play them without being TFG.
So I have a list of optional changes to both units and I want to see if the community thinks they're fair.
Please note, I want them to stay competitive, so if all you wish to do is nerf them into the ground, please do not comment.

For Windriders, I know many of you wish for 1 per 3 weapons, but since the kit comes with enough for all, I don't see that happening. So here are the options:

A) Make Windriders only able to bring 1 per 3 weapons and stay Troops, or take as many weapons and become Fast Attack. Basically sacrifice ObSec for firepower, like every other army.
B) Make the Eldar Jetbike provide only a 4+ armour. Note that this change would effect Farseers and Warlocks as well.
C) Make Scatter lasers a 15pt option, rather than 10.

I believe any 1 of those options would bring them down, but keep them competitive. Combining 2 of those might still be ok. All 3 and the bikes become rubbish.
Personally, I like options B & C

WraithKnight changes:
A) Make it 400pts before upgrades. Not really my favorite idea, but lots of people wound be happy.
B) Keep it around 325pts w/ both shoulder guns coming standard on every build, but lower its wounds to 5. This option lowers its durability and requires more points spent on the shoulder guns.

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Scatterlasers are rightfully a 20 pt weapon, but otherwise I agree. Moving them to fast attack as is is not an acceptable solution, I think.

WK fixes are good.

The bike "fix" doesn't change the fact that they're undercosted. 25 ppm. Upgrade costs remain unchanged. Armor save reduced to 4+. 1 heavy weapon per squad.

Note, of course, that this "fix" should be accompanied by a "cross the board" price increase for all bikes.

One heavy per squad is not viable, since the kit has one per model. Just make them pay.

Martel732 wrote:
One heavy per squad is not viable, since the kit has one per model. Just make them pay.

Pretty much all kits have extra bits. Do the kits not come with enough bits to run 2 bare-bones bikes and 1 with a heavy weapon?

I don't know, but one scatterlaser per biker is not likely to ever change until they change the kit.

I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.

lusciifi wrote:
I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.

What would this even matter when formations are a thing?

lusciifi wrote:
I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.

At 37 ppm, you are losing enough points per failed save that you'd actually think about not using them. That's perfect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.

What would this even matter when formations are a thing?

Losing 37 points to a single save is now in terminator territory. Heavy bolters become efficient.

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.

What would this even matter when formations are a thing?

Because ob-sec is a big deal and having it on the fastest unit in the game is op along with its firepower.

My vote on the bikes is B and C, and agreeing with Martel that scatter lasers should be 20 points on bikes (and a 10 point upgrade from a shuricannon on War Walkers; price can stay unchanged on Falcons and Wave Serpents). Autarchs and Shining Spears would keep their 3+ armor save, of course, since they have heavy aspect armor which would give them a 3+ on foot, too. Whole squads of bikes with shuricannons would be a little scary, but the shorter range and weaker armor makes them manageable (although they tear Tyranid MCs a new one.)

For the Wraithknight, I like A more than B, and the reason is that in most cases, I can kill one Wraithknight, even with my Sisters, Iron Hands or Dark Eldar. It's spam I have trouble with, and increased cost mitigates that better than dropping to W5, in my opinion.

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.

At 37 ppm, you are losing enough points per failed save that you'd actually think about not using them. That's perfect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
I don't see a reason to limit them to 1 heavy weapon, change the cost to 20pts per scatter laser, move them to fast attack and call it a day.

What would this even matter when formations are a thing?

Losing 37 points to a single save is now in terminator territory. Heavy bolters become efficient.

But the bike itself is still undercosted. 17 points for that particular model with those particular special rules and that particular statline is just laughable.

25 ppm bike. Scatter lasers become 15 ppm.

Move the bike to fast attack. Degrade the armor save to 4+. And you can have all the heavy weapons you want.

 Traditio wrote:
The bike "fix" doesn't change the fact that they're undercosted. 25 ppm. Upgrade costs remain unchanged. 1 heavy weapon per squad.

Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage. I've been playing Eldar since 4th ed. They used to be 22ppm and could only get 1 Shuricannon per 3. Players only ever took them as late game objective grabbers, if at all. And I seemed to be the only player to ever take the Shuricannon upgrade. As soon as Jink made them Snapfire, I didn't even bother taking that.

What you are suggesting is a 75 point unit (before upgrades) that dies as easily as 3 Marines (Same T & save) that can't reliably damage anything (because getting into range means they die) and only gets to grab objectives. I've played that unit, it's boring.

I could agree to on Scatter Laser being 20pts on the Windriders as Martel732 suggests, but the base cost of the Windrider really is fine. The more I think about it, the more I think 20pt Scatterlasers really would work over the other suggested changes. It more than doubles the unit's points cost and might encourage palyers to play unti that don't have all Scatters, or even units with Shuricannons.

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It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.

Now here's the real question, would 27ppm shuricannon bikes be better then 37ppm scat-bikes. At that point you are trading 12in of range for rending.

25ppm as they stand, or 25ppm with a 4+ save?

 Traditio wrote:
The bike "fix" doesn't change the fact that they're undercosted. 25 ppm. Upgrade costs remain unchanged. Armor save reduced to 4+. 1 heavy weapon per squad.

Note, of course, that this "fix" should be accompanied by a "cross the board" price increase for all bikes.

So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers? They might be undercosted by a few points, but their default weapon is a 12" A2 S4 gun. making them either fast objective grabbers, or a high risk unit that can't really put out a whole lot of damage. They're certainly not undercosted by 8ppm each. The scatter laser getting an increase in points along with a 1 per 3 would be fine though as it stops them from being the end all be all of troops.

Galef wrote:Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage.

IoW: "I still want to win all of my games, have unfair advantages and power game, I just don't want to look like I'm doing it."

Is that what you're saying?

The bike confers relentless, +1 toughness, the ability to jink as well as a ridiculous amount of mobility. That's not even taking into account the insane increase in armor saves (which they shouldn't have).

Compare a naked windrider bike to a dire avenger. Heck, compare it to a naked space marines bike. 17 ppm is a joke.

Bikes should actually have to pay for all of the special rules that they get, and especially windriders.

And that's on top of any considerations about upgrades.

What you are suggesting is a 70 point unit that dies as easily as 3 Marines (Same T & save)

Against AP 3 or better, the windriders are more durable.

that can't reliably damage anything (because getting into range means they die)

I could make the same complaint about a naked tactical squad. Put a scatter laser on the bike squad and you have something that's more expensive, has ridiculous mobility and can still fire 4 S6 shots per turn.

but the base cost of the Windrider really is fine.

Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.

lusciifi wrote:
Now here's the real question, would 27ppm shuricannon bikes be better then 37ppm scat-bikes. At that point you are trading 12in of range for rending.

I'd say yes, generally speaking - but it would actually be a contest at that point. Shuriken cannons are pretty darn good weapons, and they massacre heavy infantry in numbers. That kind of capability potentially makes it worth getting close, and even if they're deadly, a unit that gets close and does damage is more interesting to play against than something that hops around 48" away doing the point-click-and-squish dance.

lusciifi wrote:
Now here's the real question, would 27ppm shuricannon bikes be better then 37ppm scat-bikes. At that point you are trading 12in of range for rending.

The shuricannon can't kill IKs, Killing IKs from 36" away should be expensive.

"17 ppm is a joke. "

No one cares about the 17 ppm bike, because their offense is weak. BA roll out a couple Baal preds, and they all die.

Martel732 wrote:
It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.

While I agree the Scatters should be 20pts on the bikes (but keep the cost lower on other platforms), how in the heck is a Scatterlaser equal to an assault cannon? Asscans have Rending and AP4, the only advantage Scats have is range.
Scats are more like Multi-lasers with +1 shot. I didn't see anyone complaining that Multi-lasers were broken when Chimera spam was a thing.

quote=Martel732 695961 8761909 null]

lusciifi wrote:
Now here's the real question, would 27ppm shuricannon bikes be better then 37ppm scat-bikes. At that point you are trading 12in of range for rending.

The shuricannon can't kill IKs, Killing IKs from 36" away should be expensive.

Actually it can, but has to be within 24" to do it, and has one less shot. So, it's *worse* at killing IKs, but can still do it by six-fishing.

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:Again, trying to make the stay useful, not garbage.

Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.

Whitescars: Hit and run, +1S HoW (iirc), ATSKNF, combat squads, T5, skilled rider.

Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?

1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.

2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).

Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's amazing how everything just works out when people have to pay what something is actually worth. Scatterlaser = assault cannon +1, so make it cost the same.

While I agree the Scatters should be 20pts on the bikes (but keep the cost lower on other platforms), how in the heck is a Scatterlaser equal to an assault cannon? Asscans have Rending and AP4, the only advantage Scats have is range.
Scats are more like Multi-lasers with +1 shot. I didn't see anyone complaining that Multi-lasers were broken when Chimera spam was a thing.

Because the 12" range is far more valuable than AP4 and rending in practice. The AP4 is largely wasted on the tables everyone where likes to play on. The ones with so much terrain you can barely fit your models in. Rending is just a gak rule unless you've got dozens of shots. It doesn't help that every Imperial platform that can take an assault cannon sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Actually it can, but has to be within 24" to do it, and has one less shot. So, it's *worse* at killing IKs, but can still do it by six-fishing.

Isn't shuricannon S5? Its' been that long since I've seen one.

 Traditio wrote:


Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.

Reavers are 16ppm jet-bikes with skilled rider, hit+run, rending HOW, combat drugs and power from pain. I have never heard anyone call reavers OP.

Wolfblade wrote:Whitescars: Hit and run, +1S HoW (iirc), ATSKNF, combat squads, T5, skilled rider.

Most of those only apply to white scars, and white scars chapter tactics are commonly admitted to be unfair.

ATSKNF and combat squads don't really count for much when it comes to bikes. When's the last time you've seen a combat-squadded bike squad?

Martel732 wrote:


Isn't shuricannon S5? Its' been that long since I've seen one.

S6 but one less shot then the scatter laser.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:So... they should cost more than marines then? The T5 3+ bikers?

1. Space marine bikes are undercosted. Relentless, the ability to jink, +1 toughness and a 12 inch movement (and 12 inch turbo-boost) is not a 7 point upgrade.

2. Those space marine bikes don't ignore terrain and move up to 48 inches per turn. They also can't take heavy weapons (except the attack bike, and look how much IT costs).

Windrider bikes should cost as much as space marine bikes. Easily.

Irrelevant to the problems most people face. The base Eldar bike might be undercosted, but it is inconsequentially undercosted. The scatterlaser upgrade being undercosted is the problem.

lusciifi wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.

Reavers are 16ppm jet-bikes with skilled rider, hit+run and rending HOW, combat drugs and power from pain. I have never heard anyone call reavers OP.

They also have a 5+ armor save and lack the option to take heavy weapons. I do think that reavers are undercosted.

Evidence? They are considered an auto-take for DE players.