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 Galef wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Are windriders only 3 ppm better than dire avengers? Yes or no?

According to GW they are. Dire Avengers, after all have a ton of rules and wargear.

And according to GW, 27 point scatbikes are fair.

Therefore this whole thread is a useless waste of time.

Right?

I'm not appealing to GW. I'm appealing to the fact that 17 ppm naked bikes can't hurt me without getting crushed in return and can't hold any objective I care to take. With 12" gun, you are looking at getting hit with every possible form of retaliation.

It's the same reason that DK aren't nearly as problematic as Riptides.

lusciifi wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


Bull puckey. Make an enumeration of all the special rules that windriders get over the best model (to which the bike is an upgrade). Then compare windriders to bikes in other codices. 17 ppm is a joke.

Reavers are 16ppm jet-bikes with skilled rider, hit+run, rending HOW, combat drugs and power from pain. I have never heard anyone call reavers OP.

They are hands down the best unit dark eldar have. Yet they have a MF 5+ armor save and t3 and are a close combat unit with 1 base attack and they come with a spliter rifle that isn't twin linked. Stop for a second...realize the fact that several AP 5 weapons have ignores cover standard and youll see how they aren't OP and have weakness.

Jetbikes are basically always going to get a save throw. Can take insanely good weapons to be made mobile on a relentless bike AND are objective secured in a CAD.

Is there a reason peope still keep replying to Tradito when we all know he's a troll that ruins these threads?

On topic, I'd personally make them a base 20ppm, 4+ armour, move them back to Fast Attack and make the Scatter Laser a 15pt upgrade (4 Shuribikes would then cost the same as 3 Scatbikes with the same number of shots) but allow them all to still take heavy weapons. They'd still have the significant damage out put they currently have but pay more for it and can't be spammed in 6 min squads with Ob Sec.

In fact I'd increase the cost of the Scatter Laser by 5pts for anything that can take them.

As for the Wraithknight, I'd keep the 300pt base cost, but have him naked at that point. Let him change the right arm for a Suncannon at 25pts, a Heavy Wraithcannon at 50pts or a Ghostglaive at 50pts. For the left arm it can take either a Shimmershield for 40pts of a Heavy Wraithcannon for 50pts.

Naked Windriders are fine just make shuriken 15pts and scatterlaser 20pts. WK 400pts base and done with that. The best SM bike option is the grav gun which has an 18 inch range. That means they have to be much closer to the target. Also means their costs for what they have are appropriate. Especially considering they can have a max of 3 grav guns with one being a one shot weapon. Hardly op or game breaking. The command squad pays through the nose on all its upgrades and is appropriately costed. Taking a command squad is a HUGE points investment (but a better one than terminators lol).

 Imateria wrote:
Is there a reason peope still keep replying to Tradito when we all know he's a troll that ruins these threads?

On topic, I'd personally make them a base 20ppm, 4+ armour, move them back to Fast Attack and make the Scatter Laser a 15pt upgrade (4 Shuribikes would then cost the same as 3 Scatbikes with the same number of shots) but allow them all to still take heavy weapons. They'd still have the significant damage out put they currently have but pay more for it and can't be spammed in 6 min squads with Ob Sec.

Before you insist on calling me a troll, I wish to note that, in your answer, you've basically presupposed the very things that I've been arguing in this thread.

Just think for a moment about how you arrived to that 20 ppm number. Chances are, you looked at tactical marines and noted that space marine bikes cost 7 points more. You looked at ork boys in 'eavy armor and then looked over at ork warbikers, and you probably noted that they are about 8 points more. You may have looked at wyches, then looked at dark reavers, and then noted (possibly in sheer disbelief) that the bike costs roughly 6 ppm more. Perhaps you looked at scouts, and then saw that scout bikes are 7 ppm more. And you probably considered the fact that windriders are supposed to be an upgraded version of guardians, and found that windriders cost 7 ppm more.

So you said to yourself: "Y'know, it looks like GW values bikes at roughly 7 ppm. Windrider bikes, in terms of their capabilities, are much closer to dire avengers than to guardians. Look at that 4+ save, after all. So let's add 7 points to that. 20 points."

So, in point of fact, you actually underwent a reasoning process very similar to my own. And note the similarity of your proposal to mine. I propose a 40 point scatter bike. You propose a 35 point scatter bike. That's the difference between a space marine terminator in 6th edition and the same exact thing in 7th edition. Five points.

The only difference between me and you on this is I ask the question: "Is 7 points a fair representation of how much better the bike model is to its non-bike counterpart?" And I answer "No." A forteriori 6 points is not (for dark eldar reavers). A forteriori 4 points is not (the difference between dire avengers and windrider bikes).

How much is relentless, increased mobility, a jink save and +1 toughness worth (not to mention any weapons the bike may come with)?

And is it fair to price a jetbike at the same price as a regular bike? And an eldar jetbike the same price as a non-eldar jetbike?

Ponder these things.

10 ppm for regular bikes. At least 12 for regular jetbikes.

No less than 25 points for a windrider with a 4+ save.

"No less than 25 points for a windrider with a 4+ save"

No one agrees with you on this. I guaranteed I've lost to these things more than you have, and even I'm not that unrealistic. Get a grip.

A Windrider naked is basically a worse Shining Spear.

Shining Spears are clearly overpriced at 25ppm.

How could a Windrider be worth that?

As for your formula, how much is Relentless worth on a model with only an Assault weapon? If your answer is anything but 0, there is a problem. If your answer is 0, you just broke the a la carte pricing you're pushing.

Martel732 wrote:
"No less than 25 points for a windrider with a 4+ save"

No one agrees with you on this. I guaranteed I've lost to these things more than you have, and even I'm not that unrealistic. Get a grip.

Do you have any actual answers to the arguments that I've presented?

Martel732 wrote:
"No less than 25 points for a windrider with a 4+ save"

No one agrees with you on this. I guaranteed I've lost to these things more than you have, and even I'm not that unrealistic. Get a grip.

I agree with you Martel, but I think we will be seeing a new thread with a poll soon....

Bharring wrote:
A Windrider naked is basically a worse Shining Spear.

Shining Spears are clearly overpriced at 25ppm.

How do shining spears compare to naked space marine bikes?

As for your formula, how much is Relentless worth on a model with only an Assault weapon? If your answer is anything but 0, there is a problem. If your answer is 0, you just broke the a la carte pricing you're pushing.

Practically speaking? Nothing. But I could make the same claim about devastator marines having combat squads and WS, S and I 4. But that's still factored into the cost of a space marine.

And I also wish to note that relentless, as part of the special rules of terminator armor, is clearly factored into the cost of a terminator with a power fist and stormbolter.

But if you think that relentless is so valueless, points wise, then you'll agree with me in calling for bikes to lose that special rule.

But even then, a 4+ jink save, +1 toughness and the increased mobility is still worth 10 points. A forteriori jetbike mobility.

A chaos space marine raptor with mark of nurgle costs 19 ppm, and he can't even jink. Ponder that.

What, you think that a jink save is so valueless?

Then let my rhinos have them.

Trad,
You clearly missed the point.

Much of your pricing is based on the assumption that a valid points value can be assigned to each rule and wargear.

This is a counter example. This is proof positive that it cannot. As the same rules *must* be worth different values in different situations.

Shining Spears do very different things than SM bikes. I'd say they're worth less than SM bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've used Combat Squads, WS, S, and I numerous times. Not every game, but I do use them.

If you dont care for them, what you want are IG weapons teams.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Chaos Space Marine raptor with MoN is T5, much better at CC, and still considered junk. With only marginally less dakka, but notably less mobility.

So the much tougher thing costs a little more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was not saying Relentless was worthless on bikes. You completely miss the point. The point is that it is useful for some, but of no effect on others. Thus, it must have both a zero and a nonzero value. Thus, there is not a single price point it can be worth.

Bharring wrote:
Trad,
You clearly missed the point.

Much of your pricing is based on the assumption that a valid points value can be assigned to each rule and wargear.

This is a counter example. This is proof positive that it cannot.

I disagree. I think that shining spears are undercosted. A bike with (a piece of wargear which is better than) a power sword that can be thrown at landraiders to glance them on 6s? With an automatic 4+ cover save (without even jinking) just so long as you moved a quarter of an inch? And power armor? All of that with power armor?

The only thing of which this is "proof positive" is just how spoiled Eldar players are.

An assault marine with power sword is 29 ppm.

Would you prefer the assault marine with power sword or the shining spear?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, feth that. A shining spear is basically wielding a better version of a relic blade. Relic blades are a 10 point upgrade, if you take honor guard, for the 15 point power weapon they come with.

A 25ppm model with MEQ survivability, 1 6" range shot, 1A, and a large footprint.

A VV is 19ppm base, 22 with Jet packs, 2A base, plus a CCW and pistol, and S4 stock. It's easier to LOS with. It's cheaper (but not by much) to LoS with. You can mix and match weapons.

VV suck too, but they aren't strictly inferior to Shining Spears.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Shining Spear only gets the attack on the first round of combat. And has 1/3 the attacks that a VV has. At lover S after the first round. No Grenades. No CT. No ATSKNF.

My votes: None of the above. The units are FINE, and there is no need to disarm the Eldar before the other armies give up their goodies.

Bharring wrote:
A 25ppm model with MEQ survivability, 1 6" range shot, 1A, and a large footprint.

"A 6" range shot"? Lolno.

How about that twin-linked shuriken catapult that comes with the bike?

A VV is 19ppm base, 22 with Jet packs

I forgot about the jump-packs.

Scratch that. The VV is 27 ppm with the power sword.

And can't jink.

But wait, he fills an elites spot!

Let's talk about the fast attack slot:

The assault marine with jump pack and power sword is 32 ppm.

And can't jink.

The Shining Spear only gets the attack on the first round of combat.

Yeah. It gets the better version of the relic blade the first round of combat. Then it's downgraded to a "mere" power sword. You eldar players have my [in]sincere sympathy.

Umm... how is it better than a Relic Blade?
They both hit at S6AP3 WS4, only if the Shining Spear charges, though.

Even then, it's 2 attacks, vs the Relic Blade gets 4 attacks on the charge.

A lot of this stuff isn't fair. But your bias is showing.

 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Trad,
You clearly missed the point.

Much of your pricing is based on the assumption that a valid points value can be assigned to each rule and wargear.

This is a counter example. This is proof positive that it cannot.

I disagree. I think that shining spears are undercosted. A bike with (a piece of wargear which is better than) a power sword that can be thrown at landraiders to glance them on 6s? With an automatic 4+ cover save (without even jinking) just so long as you moved a quarter of an inch? And power armor? All of that with power armor?

The only thing of which this is "proof positive" is just how spoiled Eldar players are.

An assault marine with power sword is 29 ppm.

Would you prefer the assault marine with power sword or the shining spear?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, feth that. A shining spear is basically wielding a better version of a relic blade. Relic blades are a 10 point upgrade, if you take honor guard, for the 15 point power weapon they come with.

And here is proof Traditio doesn't know what he's talking about. A Shining Spear is bogged down in combat by almost everything, cost way too much and die very easily. They aren't good and they certainly aren't undercosted.

Bharring wrote:
Umm... how is it better than a Relic Blade?

The relic blade is +2 strength, AP 3.

The shining spear gives +3 strength, AP 3 and lance. An honor guard with relic blade can't glance a landraider.

And a Shining Spear can't go toe to toe with an Honorguard.

 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Umm... how is it better than a Relic Blade?

The relic blade is +2 strength, AP 3.

The shining spear gives +3 strength, AP 3 and lance. An honor guard with relic blade can't glance a landraider.

And if I charge a unit with a relic blade they still have a strong weapon. A Shining Spear doesn't. You're grossly overselling the glance a land raider rubbish. You do it on a six with at absolute best three attacks.

OMG, someone is arguing Shining Spears are "broken"?

They're the Jetbikes I don't want, giving up most of the core utility of Jetbikes -- mobility and range.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OMG, someone is arguing Shining Spears are "broken"?

Why do you use quotes when I didn't actually use the term? Broken? No. Undercosted? You betcha.

At their core, we are talking about a model that:

1. Has power armor.
2. Has a [better version of a] power sword that can potentially lance landraiders to death and wound tactical marines on 2s.
3. Has a 4+ jink without actually jinking.
4. Has outflanking.
5. Is on an eldar jet bike.

25 points is not appropriate for that model.

They're the Jetbikes I don't want, giving up most of the core utility of Jetbikes -- mobility and range.

Of course you don't want shining spears. They're undercosted, but not by all that much. There's much more OP, undercosted gak in the codex that you could be exploiting unfairly instead.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"No less than 25 points for a windrider with a 4+ save"

No one agrees with you on this. I guaranteed I've lost to these things more than you have, and even I'm not that unrealistic. Get a grip.

Do you have any actual answers to the arguments that I've presented?

Yes. Actual game play. I've explained it in multiple posts. No scatterlaser, no shuricannon, no problem. 17 ppm is fine.

Martel732 wrote:Yes. Actual game play. I've explained it in multiple posts.

Therefore naked tacticals should cost 5 ppm? Because, in my in-game experience, they don't get the job done at 14 ppm.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Yes. Actual game play. I've explained it in multiple posts.

Therefore naked tacticals should cost 5 ppm? Because, in my in-game experience, they don't get the job done at 14 ppm.

Making the things that mow down tacticals cost more will make them worth 14 ppm again. 14 ppm tactical is fine if a scatbike is 37.

Look at it this way Traditio, in the SM codex a Jump Pack for a non-HQ is a 3pt upgrade and is almost universally seen as overcosted and not worth the price.

For 3pts per model more that a Tactical Marine, a naked Windrunner gets basically the same benefit + a 2D6" assault move and + Turboboost + Jink, as relentless means nothing on a model with an assault weapon.

That same model also lacks the Frag and Krak grenades which are like 1 point each.

That's pretty fair actually, all things considered. If they're undercosted it's only by at most a point or two, not the whopping 8 you're suggesting.

Personally I believe that Windriders should have never been troop choices; this is an artifact left over from the original Codex: Craftworlds that messed everything up; back then the Saim Hann craft world rule gave you the ability to take FA choices as your compulsory. When the Eldar Codex got updated in 4th edition, Codex: Craftworlds was invalidated.

To not render every Saim Hann player's armies invalid, they moved Jetbikes to Troops (which is weird since the same codex made Wraithguard troops under certain conditions, but Jetbikes got a free pass). When FoC shenanigans became the norm (i.e: 5th edition and onwards) Jetbikes should have been moved back to FA and only usable in Troops under certain circumstances, but they never did so likely because it was so long ago no one remembered why they actually got moved.

And then they got scatter lasers and the rest is history.

I say move them back to FA, and have Jetbike squads that take more than one "heavy" weapon (Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Laser) moved to Heavy Support and restrict unit sizes for them (like no extra models), like Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers in Necron Armies. Leave em there, and give Saim Hann a special FoC like they had before where FAs are the compulsory choices (similar to the CotGW detachment and Archangels with elites).

As for the Wraithknight, I honestly think it should cost 400 points bare minimum. Tyranids, the supposed kings of Monstrous and Gargantuan Creatures, don't get anything close to something that awesome.

Add 100 points to the wraithknight and the jetbikes should be 4+ save. Then allow up to three models in the unit take the heavy weapon and make scatterlasers strength 5.

Been working fine for me

Wind riders having 4+ and/or Scatterlasers being 15 points is something I'd be on board with.

However, I'm interested in the fix where the Wraithknight has all the shoulder guns standard and costs more. What was the reasoning behind that approach?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the easiest fix to Shining Spears is just giving them Hit And Run.