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Martel732 wrote:
I also think there is a fundamental misunderstand of how compromising I'm being here. Using the IK crusader as a template, I could easily argue the WK should be 500 pts with double heavy wraith cannon.

Yeah. Believe it or not, I'm literally the only person who's actually being "reasonable" from the get go. Martel wants to push it to 500 or more points. Galef wants to introduce "nerfs" which don't actually nerf anything.

I'm simply saying: "The matter is already settled. Public opinion has spoken. This is what most people want."

500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader. That's how crazy this thing is.

I'm going with 400, though, for argument's sake. If I were the sole designer, I'd strongly consider 500. Or at least significantly more than 400. It literally doesn't care about devastator squads or predators or leman russes because they'll never kill it before it's in melee.

Martel732 wrote:
500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader. That's how crazy this thing is.

I'm not saying that you're being unreasonable, Martel.

Perhaps the word is "moderate."

I'm literally expressing the most moderate opinion in this thread.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.

I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?

And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.

There's nothing wrong with making it cost what it is worth. You can have guns standard, but that's now 425 pts. The WK is supposed to be an apocalypse-level super model. That warrants powerful rules and a high price tag. I think it's thematically better without the nerfs and more cost.

Ok, I'll buy the "thematic" idea (although that's really what a Revenant are for). How about this: 395pts, shoulder guns included, 5 wounds, ranged D -1 (cuz I really think Distort should be this way on all weapons, D -2 on scythes)

A WK like this would still be very powerful, have to pay 70pts more than now, have 17% less durability AND can no longer 1-shot it's IK counterpart.

--

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.

I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?

And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.

There's nothing wrong with making it cost what it is worth. You can have guns standard, but that's now 425 pts. The WK is supposed to be an apocalypse-level super model. That warrants powerful rules and a high price tag. I think it's thematically better without the nerfs and more cost.

Ok, I'll buy the "thematic" idea (although that's really what a Revenant are for). How about this: 375pts, shoulder guns included, 5 wounds, ranged D -1 (cuz I really thing Distort should be this way)

--

That's closer. Although the D-1 makes the 3++ Riptide basically immune to your shooting. The kicker for D vs vehicles is ignoring armor, not the "6" effect. You want the "6" effect vs other MCs with invuln saves. So I'm not really digging that nerf at all. It's still getting weaker vs Tau, which seems really bad to me. And weaker vs Dreadknights. Which the game also doesn't need because feth those things, too.

Martel732 wrote:
500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader.

Given that a Warhound Titan lays down 4 S(D) Large Blasts for ~750 pts, 500 pts for 2 S(D) shots isn't even close to being reasonable.

295 pts is fair for half the shots, losing blast.

Actually, one might reasonably argue that the WK is grossly overcosted compared to the WHT...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader.

Given that a Warhound Titan lays down 4 S(D) Large Blasts for ~750 pts, 500 pts for 2 S(D) shots isn't even close to being reasonable.

295 pts is fair for half the shots, losing blast.

You're also paying for the insane durability that the firepower is mounted on. The WK can't experience extra damage via "explodes", whereas I'm sure the Warhound can. You must pay for being immune to 85% of the game. Maybe 90%. 295 pts is not remotely fair for the durability/firepower combo.

Also, I'm using IK crusader as the measuring stick here. A far more common model than Warhound.

"Actually, one might reasonably argue that the WK is grossly overcosted compared to the WHT..."

Sounds like warhound is a glass cannon, really.

The taunar is 600 for T9, 10wounds, 4++/5+++, half the wounds on the first 6 on a D-hit.

It also has a 7' D-blast for a primary gun

lusciifi wrote:
The taunar is 600 for T10, 10wounds, 4++/5+++, ignore the first 6 on a D-hit.

It also has a 7' D-blast for a primary gun

Maybe IKs are grossly overcosted then. It's really had to understand their pricing philosophy with these.

In the Riptide/Stormsurge/IK/WK/Baneblade meta, 295 is for sure way too little for WK. With these other units, it gets even more complex.

Martel732 wrote:


That's closer. Although the D-1 makes the 3++ Riptide basically immune to your shooting. The kicker for D vs vehicles is ignoring armor, not the "6" effect. You want the "6" effect vs other MCs with invuln saves. So I'm not really digging that nerf at all. It's still getting weaker vs Tau, which seems really bad to me. And weaker vs Dreadknights. Which the game also doesn't need because feth those things, too.

Well D -1 double the change of doing nothing to any vehicle, because you go from Penning on a 2+ to a 3+. Oh, and I revised it to 395pts. That satisfies the +100pts *some* people are crying about, but also include the spare guns, -1W and D -1. With no other changes to the way GMCs or Stomp works (as I have suggested), those 4 changes would be fair.

lusciifi wrote:
The taunar is 600 for T9, 10wounds, 4++/5+++, half the wounds on the first 6 on a D-hit.

It also has a 7' D-blast for a primary gun

Yeah, those things make WKs look like Wraith Lords. You need 3 WKs just to reliably kill that dang thing!

--

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
The taunar is 600 for T10, 10wounds, 4++/5+++, ignore the first 6 on a D-hit.

It also has a 7' D-blast for a primary gun

Maybe IKs are grossly overcosted then. It's really had to understand their pricing philosophy with these.

Not really, its just the GMC rules being as broken as they are.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


That's closer. Although the D-1 makes the 3++ Riptide basically immune to your shooting. The kicker for D vs vehicles is ignoring armor, not the "6" effect. You want the "6" effect vs other MCs with invuln saves. So I'm not really digging that nerf at all. It's still getting weaker vs Tau, which seems really bad to me. And weaker vs Dreadknights. Which the game also doesn't need because feth those things, too.

Well D -1 double the change of doing nothing to any vehicle, because you go from Penning on a 2+ to a 3+. Oh, and I revised it to 395pts. That satisfies the +100pts *some* people are crying about, but also include the spare guns, -1W and D -1. With no other changes to the way GMCs or Stomp works (as I have suggested), those 4 changes would be fair.

That's fine, but I don't like it getting weaker vis a vis Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lusciifi wrote:
The taunar is 600 for T9, 10wounds, 4++/5+++, half the wounds on the first 6 on a D-hit.

It also has a 7' D-blast for a primary gun

That is actually significantly less firepower than the 4 X large blast D of the Warhound. But a lot more durability.

Martel732 wrote:

That's fine, but I don't like it getting weaker vis a vis Tau.

Well the Tau have there own set of issues. If you compare the stat line (read STAT line, not special rules) of a Riptide vs a WK, it can make sense for them to have the same # of wounds, after all the WK has T8. It's like comparing WraithGuard to Terminators. Sure the Termies have a 2+, but WG have T6.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:Public opinion... of dakkdakka, not the entire 40k community. And even then, public opinion isn't always right, I want to say that's a fallacy of some kind.

If I were making the argument, "Public opinion holds x; therefore, x is true," that is a fallacy. Argumentum ad populum.

Aren't you? "I held a poll, the poll says X, therefore X is right." If you held a poll and the majority opinion was "Tac marines should cost 20 points each" would you be touting that opinion too?

 Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.

Of course you think that. You don't actually want to engage in fair fights.

If you wanted to engage in fair fights, you'd look at the statline, wargear, etc., realize that a model of that kind if worth at least 395 points, and pay accordingly.

Excuse me if I doubt your highly biased judgement based on past experience of wanting to nerf anything that might dare to be better than a Marine of any kind.

"You need 3 WKs just to reliably kill that dang thing! "

Two should do it just fine. It can't use FNP vs the D-cannons. And the large D blast will kill the WKs very slowly. Unless it rolls a "6".

Am i the only one that thinks D-1 doesnt belong on a Heavy Wraithcannon?

Sure, it needs a nerf. Plus a ton of points seems fair. But these arent simpe Wraithcannons, theyre Heavy. These are what D weapons sbould be. The problem is the WK isnt paying the points for it.

Giving it -1W doesnt do as much as it sounds, as many forces are forced to simply endure it, and would still be forced to endure it at 5. It'd help, but not as much as a 400pt price tag.

Also, the shoulder guns shouldnt come stock. Some people maybe want to take it withiut them. You could absorb some of the standard cost into the model, and discount the upgrade the same amount, if you either wanted to incentivise getting them or if you feel they arent worth their base cost (not sure id agree with that one).

I really like the idea of you pay for the arm weapons too. Their different loadouts should cost different amounts.

Bharring wrote:
Am i the only one that thinks D-1 doesnt belong on a Heavy Wraithcannon?

Sure, it needs a nerf. Plus a ton of points seems fair. But these arent simpe Wraithcannons, theyre Heavy. These are what D weapons sbould be. The problem is the WK isnt paying the points for it.

Giving it -1W doesnt do as much as it sounds, as many forces are forced to simply endure it, and would still be forced to endure it at 5. It'd help, but not as much as a 400pt price tag.

Also, the shoulder guns shouldnt come stock. Some people maybe want to take it withiut them. You could absorb some of the standard cost into the model, and discount the upgrade the same amount, if you either wanted to incentivise getting them or if you feel they arent worth their base cost (not sure id agree with that one).

I really like the idea of you pay for the arm weapons too. Their different loadouts should cost different amounts.

I agree with this. Make the baby wraith cannons D-1.

Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader.

Given that a Warhound Titan lays down 4 S(D) Large Blasts for ~750 pts, 500 pts for 2 S(D) shots isn't even close to being reasonable.

295 pts is fair for half the shots, losing blast.

You're also paying for the insane durability that the firepower is mounted on. The WK can't experience extra damage via "explodes", whereas I'm sure the Warhound can. You must pay for being immune to 85% of the game. Maybe 90%. 295 pts is not remotely fair for the durability/firepower combo.

Also, I'm using IK crusader as the measuring stick here. A far more common model than Warhound.

"Actually, one might reasonably argue that the WK is grossly overcosted compared to the WHT..."

Sounds like warhound is a glass cannon, really.

A Warhound Titan is AV14/13/12 with 2 Void Shields and 9 Hull Points. I wouldn't call it a glass cannon. Fact is, it's a very competitive model, and far more points-efficient than the WK or IKT.

In some ways, you using the IK Crusader as your measuring stick is not at all unlike some idiot using a Tac Marine/Rhino/AM/Devastator-filled CAD as the gold standard of fairness and balance...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
500 pts for double wraith cannon is NOT unreasonable given the IK crusader.

Given that a Warhound Titan lays down 4 S(D) Large Blasts for ~750 pts, 500 pts for 2 S(D) shots isn't even close to being reasonable.

295 pts is fair for half the shots, losing blast.

You're also paying for the insane durability that the firepower is mounted on. The WK can't experience extra damage via "explodes", whereas I'm sure the Warhound can. You must pay for being immune to 85% of the game. Maybe 90%. 295 pts is not remotely fair for the durability/firepower combo.

Also, I'm using IK crusader as the measuring stick here. A far more common model than Warhound.

"Actually, one might reasonably argue that the WK is grossly overcosted compared to the WHT..."

Sounds like warhound is a glass cannon, really.

A Warhound Titan is AV14/13/12 with 2 Void Shields and 9 Hull Points. I wouldn't call it a glass cannon. Fact is, it's a very competitive model, and far more points-efficient than the WK or IKT.

In some ways, you using the IK Crusader as your measuring stick is not at all unlike some idiot using a Tac Marine/Rhino/AM/Devastator-filled CAD as the gold standard of fairness and balance...

AV 13 sides save the thing. AV 12 would be death by scatterlaser. Still, not that impressive for a 750 pt model, defensively speaking. Mid STR, high ROF scrub off the voids, and then D weapons and melta drain the 9 hull points quickly. The lack of vulnerability to melta and AP 1 in general always shifts things in the GMCs favor. A lot.

We can use Stormsurge as a stick instead. The WK does not have finite D ammo and does not need synergistic support to fire its D weapons. It also has two more toughness, making autocannon and scatterlaser spam non-viable, unlike the Stormsurge. Using a full titan as a balancing point in 40K seems like a poor idea to me.

You are completely dancing around the insane durability of the WK.

Bharring wrote:
Am i the only one that thinks D-1 doesnt belong on a Heavy Wraithcannon?

Sure, it needs a nerf. Plus a ton of points seems fair. But these arent simpe Wraithcannons, theyre Heavy. These are what D weapons sbould be. The problem is the WK isnt paying the points for it.

Giving it -1W doesnt do as much as it sounds, as many forces are forced to simply endure it, and would still be forced to endure it at 5. It'd help, but not as much as a 400pt price tag.

Also, the shoulder guns shouldnt come stock. Some people maybe want to take it withiut them. You could absorb some of the standard cost into the model, and discount the upgrade the same amount, if you either wanted to incentivise getting them or if you feel they arent worth their base cost (not sure id agree with that one).

I really like the idea of you pay for the arm weapons too. Their different loadouts should cost different amounts.

All Distort weapons being D -1 is meant to be a compromise between what they were (just str10) and what they are now. Full D at range should really be reserved for Titan level models (which the WK should not be) The "Heavy" part of the Heavy Wraithcannon is the fact that it has 3x the range of a regular Wraithcannon. IMO, if you are going to keep Full D on the Heavy cannon, make it range 24, or even 12

 Galef wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Am i the only one that thinks D-1 doesnt belong on a Heavy Wraithcannon?

Sure, it needs a nerf. Plus a ton of points seems fair. But these arent simpe Wraithcannons, theyre Heavy. These are what D weapons sbould be. The problem is the WK isnt paying the points for it.

Giving it -1W doesnt do as much as it sounds, as many forces are forced to simply endure it, and would still be forced to endure it at 5. It'd help, but not as much as a 400pt price tag.

Also, the shoulder guns shouldnt come stock. Some people maybe want to take it withiut them. You could absorb some of the standard cost into the model, and discount the upgrade the same amount, if you either wanted to incentivise getting them or if you feel they arent worth their base cost (not sure id agree with that one).

I really like the idea of you pay for the arm weapons too. Their different loadouts should cost different amounts.

All Distort weapons being D -1 is meant to be a compromise between what they were (just str10) and what they are now. Full D at range should really be reserved for Titan level models (which the WK should not be) The "Heavy" part of the Heavy Wraithcannon is the fact that it has 3x the range of a regular Wraithcannon. IMO, if you are going to keep Full D on the Heavy cannon, make it range 24, or even 12

You're back to Riptides and Stormsurges laughing at you. Just pay the points to be good. It's better than paying the points to be gak, like BA. It's a bit of shock in the current Eldar codex, I know.

Martel732 wrote:

You're back to Riptides and Stormsurges laughing at you. Just pay the points to be good. It's better than paying the points to be gak, like BA. It's a bit of shock in the current Eldar codex, I know.

D -1 is still better that what is was in the 6th ed dex, even against Riptides and Stormsurges. A WK with 36" range D -1 shots can still take on a wide variety of targets, without being the answer to other big targets. A CC WK should be the answer to the enemy's big stuff.

--

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You're back to Riptides and Stormsurges laughing at you. Just pay the points to be good. It's better than paying the points to be gak, like BA. It's a bit of shock in the current Eldar codex, I know.

D -1 is still better that what is was in the 6th ed dex, even against Riptides and Stormsurges. A WK with 36" range D -1 shots can still take on a wide variety of targets, without being the answer to other big targets. A CC WK should be the answer to the enemy's big stuff.

--

Better than in 6th doesn't make Tau respect you at range. Without the possibility of bypassing their invuln, the math heavily, heavily favors them.

Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:
Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.

I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.

That's a good question.

In theory, at 1850 pts, you'd take 6 WKs vs 5 IKTs, but the IKTs would have their House / Lance formation bonuses and the WKs wouldn't.

I kinda want to proxy it out and see what would happen. I think it's an extreme Rock, that auto-wins against IKT Scissors, but auto-loses to Gladius Paper or Rending Hordes. And I think that is part of the danger of doing certain sorts of narrow comparisons of a unit like the IKT and the specific counter like the WK.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:
Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.

I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.

That's a good question.

In theory, at 1850 pts, you'd take 6 WKs vs 5 IKTs, but the IKTs would have their House / Lance formation bonuses and the WKs wouldn't.

I kinda want to proxy it out and see what would happen. I think it's an extreme Rock, that auto-wins against IKT Scissors, but auto-loses to Gladius Paper or Rending Hordes. And I think that is part of the danger of doing certain sorts of narrow comparisons of a unit like the IKT and the specific counter like the WK.

My local has done the WK list vs IK list. The IK lost every time out of 10 games. If you include FW IK the odds get a bit better depending on what you take the IK tend to win 3/10 then. At least that seems to be the regular results in our group. It could be a YMMV thing.

 NorseSig wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:
Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.

I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.

That's a good question.

In theory, at 1850 pts, you'd take 6 WKs vs 5 IKTs, but the IKTs would have their House / Lance formation bonuses and the WKs wouldn't.

I kinda want to proxy it out and see what would happen. I think it's an extreme Rock, that auto-wins against IKT Scissors, but auto-loses to Gladius Paper or Rending Hordes. And I think that is part of the danger of doing certain sorts of narrow comparisons of a unit like the IKT and the specific counter like the WK.

My local has done the WK list vs IK list. The IK lost every time out of 10 games. If you include FW IK the odds get a bit better depending on what you take the IK tend to win 3/10 then. At least that seems to be the regular results in our group. It could be a YMMV thing.

That sounds about right - IKTs are just about the perfect target for WKs. But that doesn't mean that WKs are unfair, any more than Tac Marines are unfair against Imperial Guardsmen.

That sounds about right - IKTs are just about the perfect target for WKs. But that doesn't mean that WKs are unfair, any more than Tac Marines are unfair against Imperial Guardsmen.

The WK isn't unfair so much as way too freaking cheap. The WKs ability to kill IK has nothing to do with it at all. Pretty sure the volume of fire from the Guardsmen would decimate the Tac Marines. That is what usually happens anyway.

Not really.

A 15-pt Tacmarine is 2 shots, hitting 3+, wounding 3+ no save = 8/9 Guarsdman. ~30 pts of Tacmarines kills 10.6 pts of Guardsmen.

A 6-pt Guardsman is 2 shots, hitting 4+, wounding 5+ vs 3+ save = 1/9 Tacmarine. ~30 pts of Guardsmen kill 8.3 pts of Marines.

WKs are unfair because if their durability and mobility on top of the wraithcannons.