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 Traditio wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OMG, someone is arguing Shining Spears are "broken"?

Why do you use quotes when I didn't actually use the term? Broken? No. Undercosted? You betcha.

At their core, we are talking about a model that:

1. Has power armor.
2. Has a [better version of a] power sword that can potentially lance landraiders to death and wound tactical marines on 2s.
3. Has a 4+ jink without actually jinking.
4. Has outflanking.
5. Is on an eldar jet bike.

25 points is not appropriate for that model.

They're the Jetbikes I don't want, giving up most of the core utility of Jetbikes -- mobility and range.

Of course you don't want shining spears. They're undercosted, but not by all that much. There's much more OP, undercosted gak in the codex that you could be exploiting unfairly instead.

People don't want Shining Spears because they aren't very good.

1. I'll agree that's good.
2,IF they charge and as I said before the Land Raider example is ridiculous. This is like arguing a Tactical Marine is OP because they can potentially kill most vehicles. You know what else wounds a Tactical Marine on 2's? Lascannons. Does that make a Dev squad OP?
3. A largely useless rule that should be replaced with Hit and Run.
4. Great. I can sit uselessly on a different board edge waiting for T3 to charge if I don't die or end up on the wrong side.
5. Okay. So what? Turbo boost isn't great because it can't charge, Assault movement isn't great because you want to charge and the gun is not going to make the unit good alone.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

However, I'm interested in the fix where the Wraithknight has all the shoulder guns standard and costs more. What was the reasoning behind that approach?

The reasoning is because the Wraithlord comes stock with Shuricats or Flamers, then buys bigger guns. It would be cool for the WK to come stock with shoulder guns for a points increase, but only has 5W.
Lowering the wounds is an attempt at making the durability match what it was before it got FNP.
I am not an advocate of raising base costs of any unit, however raising the cost of optional wargear is a great idea (read 20pt Scats for Bikes)

So how about this for the WK:

Suncannon/Shield w 2 Shuricannons base cost: 300pts. Only 5 wounds
Swap either Shuricannon for Scatter Laser or Star cannon: free
Swap Suncannon/Shield for 2 Heavy Wraithcannons: 50pts
Swap Suncannon for Glaive: 50pts

That would bring the total cost of either D-wielding version to 350pts, but only has 5 wounds. That's a 50pts increase,(including mandatory shoulder guns) for a 17% decrease in durability.
And BTW, if we assume each wound is worth 50pts (295 / 6), this suggestion is equivalent to those that suggest a 400pt WK with 6 wounds, but I feel is a better compromise.

--

pm713 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Traditio wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OMG, someone is arguing Shining Spears are "broken"?

Why do you use quotes when I didn't actually use the term? Broken? No. Undercosted? You betcha.

At their core, we are talking about a model that:

1. Has power armor.
2. Has a [better version of a] power sword that can potentially lance landraiders to death and wound tactical marines on 2s.
3. Has a 4+ jink without actually jinking.
4. Has outflanking.
5. Is on an eldar jet bike.

25 points is not appropriate for that model.

They're the Jetbikes I don't want, giving up most of the core utility of Jetbikes -- mobility and range.

Of course you don't want shining spears. They're undercosted, but not by all that much. There's much more OP, undercosted gak in the codex that you could be exploiting unfairly instead.

People don't want Shining Spears because they aren't very good.

1. I'll agree that's good.
2,IF they charge and as I said before the Land Raider example is ridiculous. This is like arguing a Tactical Marine is OP because they can potentially kill most vehicles. You know what else wounds a Tactical Marine on 2's? Lascannons. Does that make a Dev squad OP?
3. A largely useless rule that should be replaced with Hit and Run.
4. Great. I can sit uselessly on a different board edge waiting for T3 to charge if I don't die or end up on the wrong side.
5. Okay. So what? Turbo boost isn't great because it can't charge, Assault movement isn't great because you want to charge and the gun is not going to make the unit good alone.

Dear sweet zombie Jesus... At this rate, we're going to see a thread soon arguing that Mutilators are OP obnoxious TFG cheese because they can match their weapons to what they're fighting!

It seems to me that what this whole thread has boiled down to in Trad's book is;
- Can unit 'X' kill a naked Tactical Marine?
- If yes, does it cost at least 3x a naked Tactical Marine?
- If no, nerf the ever living gak out of it until it costs at least 4x a naked Tactical Marine, because... "Reasons!"



Jetbikes themselves are fine. As pointed out ad nausium, it's the weapon upgrades that make them bonkers. +13pts/model per Shuricannon (making them a tidy 30pts/model total), and +20pts/model per Scatlaser.

Wraithknights I feel would be better off fixed by simply re-working entirely the core mechanics on GMC's.
Sure the Knight itself is a bit undercosted at base, but it's real power comes from just how bonkers the actual GMC rules are, especially the likes of Stomp and the near immunity to Poison, etc...

Experiment 626 wrote:

Wraithknights I feel would be better off fixed by simply re-working entirely the core mechanics on GMC's.
Sure the Knight itself is a bit undercosted at base, but it's real power comes from just how bonkers the actual GMC rules are, especially the likes of Stomp and the near immunity to Poison, etc...

Truer words, my friend, truer words.

If Stomp 6's were merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed, that would make the WK a lot more price appropriate.
Also if D-weapon 6's only did D3+2 wounds/HPs with no saves, it would be a big improvement.

--

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

However, I'm interested in the fix where the Wraithknight has all the shoulder guns standard and costs more. What was the reasoning behind that approach?

The reasoning is because the Wraithlord comes stock with Shuricats or Flamers, then buys bigger guns. It would be cool for the WK to come stock with shoulder guns for a points increase, but only has 5W.
Lowering the wounds is an attempt at making the durability match what it was before it got FNP.
I am not an advocate of raising base costs of any unit, however raising the cost of optional wargear is a great idea (read 20pt Scats for Bikes)

So how about this for the WK:

Suncannon/Shield w 2 Shuricannons base cost: 300pts. Only 5 wounds
Swap either Shuricannon for Scatter Laser or Star cannon: free
Swap Suncannon/Shield for 2 Heavy Wraithcannons: 50pts
Swap Suncannon for Glaive: 50pts

That would bring the total cost of either D-wielding version to 350pts, but only has 5 wounds. That's a 50pts increase,(including mandatory shoulder guns) for a 17% decrease in durability.
And BTW, if we assume each wound is worth 50pts (295 / 6), this suggestion is equivalent to those that suggest a 400pt WK with 6 wounds, but I feel is a better compromise.

--

Except thats more like a 30pt increase because a Wraithknight with shoulder weapons is currently around 320. I'm not sure taking a wound off it will actually help, there are plenty of ways to kill a Wraithknight currently but the problem is doing so before it earns double or more of it's points cost back, and this change will not help. Also, 2 Heavy Wraithcannons are worth a lot more than 50pts, hell the D-Cannon on the Wraithseer is a 65pt upgrade, and thats only got a 24" range and is hobbled by being a small blast.

Honestly I completely disagree with your philosphy of not raising the base cost of units, there are too many examples where reducing the units abilities to match their points cost will render them incapable of performing the role they were designed for.

WK at 400 pts base is totally a legit fix.

Agreed on that, and along with the proposed scatbike fixes and the erratum on Warp Spiders, might go a long way toward making Eldar lists a bit more diverse. (I mean, really, there are tons of strong options, people...)

Martel732 wrote:
WK at 400 pts base is totally a legit fix.

So back in the 6th ed codex, I relied on 2 of the MC WKs as my only ranged anti-tank. I did not want them to make the WK a GMC for the very reason that doing so would make it 400pts and mean I'd only get to field 1. I have dealt with the fact that I can only need 1 WK, even though I own 3. If the WK started out as a GMC LoW for 400pts, I only would own 1

Is the WK worth 400pts? Yes of course, but only if the shoulder guns are included in that cost and only for the Wraithcannon or Sword Board version. No one takes the Suncannon WK, it should be 350pts at most (including shoulder guns)

Experiment 626 wrote:
It seems to me that what this whole thread has boiled down to in Trad's book is;
- Can unit 'X' kill a naked Tactical Marine?
- If yes, does it cost at least 3x a naked Tactical Marine?
- If no, nerf the ever living gak out of it until it costs at least 4x a naked Tactical Marine, because... "Reasons!"

Jetbikes themselves are fine. As pointed out ad nausium, it's the weapon upgrades that make them bonkers.

More like:
- Is unit X Eldar?
- Yes, it's broken, must be nerfed
- No? Does it kill naked Tacmarines?
- Yes? Nerf it!
- No? ...

Technically, that stupid, worthless spear is a weapon upgrade to a Jetbike. And we all know that Jetbikes with Spears are the exact opposite of "bonkers". It's actually a downgrade in utility per point effectiveness compared to a naked jetbike.

Almost nothing mows down tac marines faster than a warden IK with stormspear launcher. I guess a renegade with double avengers. But no one is calling for a nerf because AV 12 HP 6 is not that difficult to take down. Compare to T8 W6 free FNP with no "explodes" possible.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

However, I'm interested in the fix where the Wraithknight has all the shoulder guns standard and costs more. What was the reasoning behind that approach?

The reasoning is because the Wraithlord comes stock with Shuricats or Flamers, then buys bigger guns. It would be cool for the WK to come stock with shoulder guns for a points increase, but only has 5W.
Lowering the wounds is an attempt at making the durability match what it was before it got FNP.
I am not an advocate of raising base costs of any unit, however raising the cost of optional wargear is a great idea (read 20pt Scats for Bikes)

So how about this for the WK:

Suncannon/Shield w 2 Shuricannons base cost: 300pts. Only 5 wounds
Swap either Shuricannon for Scatter Laser or Star cannon: free
Swap Suncannon/Shield for 2 Heavy Wraithcannons: 50pts
Swap Suncannon for Glaive: 50pts

That would bring the total cost of either D-wielding version to 350pts, but only has 5 wounds. That's a 50pts increase,(including mandatory shoulder guns) for a 17% decrease in durability.
And BTW, if we assume each wound is worth 50pts (295 / 6), this suggestion is equivalent to those that suggest a 400pt WK with 6 wounds, but I feel is a better compromise.

--

Public opinion has already spoken, Galef. Consider the poll I did a while back.

395 point wraithknight. It comes with absolutely no upgrades. You pay for upgrades as normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:Dear sweet zombie

1. Rule 1. I don't know whether or not this constitutes an offense against rule 1, but I do request that you display a bit more sensitivity to the religious views of other people.

At this rate, we're going to see a thread soon arguing that Mutilators are OP obnoxious TFG cheese because they can match their weapons to what they're fighting!

It seems to me that what this whole thread has boiled down to in Trad's book is;
- Can unit 'X' kill a naked Tactical Marine?
- If yes, does it cost at least 3x a naked Tactical Marine?
- If no, nerf the ever living gak out of it until it costs at least 4x a naked Tactical Marine, because... "Reasons!"

Then you haven't understood me. My argument is more like:

This unit has this statline, this wargear and these in-game capabilities. X points does not reflect the vlaue of that statline, wargear and in-game capabilities.

Jetbikes themselves are fine.

Thus far, nobody's actually provided a real argument in favor of this. The closest is Martel's "I've played against them and they don't really concern me." But absolutely no points analysis of the value of the statline or wargear has been undergone to show a conclusion contrary to mine, or else, a comparison of these units to similar units in other codices.

If they're undercosted in comparison to similar things in other codices, they're not fine.

If they're undercosted given their wargear, stat-line, etc., then they're not fine.

Sure the Knight itself is a bit undercosted at base, but it's real power comes from just how bonkers the actual GMC rules are, especially the likes of Stomp and the near immunity to Poison, etc...

If GMC simply conferred eternal warrior and no other benefits, then I would be satisfied with a wraithknight that's under 400 points.

Note, however, that Big Papa Smurf costs 275 points.

So back in the 6th ed codex, I relied on 2 of the MC WKs as my only ranged anti-tank. I did not want them to make the WK a GMC for the very reason that doing so would make it 400pts and mean I'd only get to field 1. I have dealt with the fact that I can only need 1 WK, even though I own 3. If the WK started out as a GMC LoW for 400pts, I only would own 1

Is the WK worth 400pts? Yes of course, but only if the shoulder guns are included in that cost and only for the Wraithcannon or Sword Board version. No one takes the Suncannon WK, it should be 350pts at most (including shoulder guns)

Just no. Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thus far, nobody's actually provided a real argument in favor of this. The closest is Martel's "I've played against them and they don't really concern me." But absolutely no points analysis of the value of the statline or wargear has been undergone to show a conclusion contrary to mine, or else, a comparison of these units to similar units in other codices.

Actually a lot of us have said this. You just ignore them because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I might comment on your threads now and then, but I have serious issues with your so called polls and how you hold the results you like up as the gospel and the ones you don't as the result of trolls. You seem like a passionate person, and I think you mean well; but you doing these things really shoots yourself in the foot. You can't have a biased poll or ignore results you don't like and still be taken seriously or seen as anything but a troll. And a poll for every little thing is not need. You just invite trolling when you make them all the time.

"" But absolutely no points analysis of the value of the statline"

My analysis is the only pertinent analysis. Models can be more potent or less potent than the sum of their individual stats. You can't assign a point value until you see them on the table multiple times.

WK is fair at 400 pts NAKED. You buy the upgrades from there. There is a price to be paid for being immune to 85% of the weaponry in the game. Don't like it? Start taking things away. No FNP. No poison immunity. Then you get to be cheaper. Not before. You have to pay for insane durability on a model that is default ST 10 AP 2 with stomp for offense. Oh and that moves 12" ignoring terrain.

 NorseSig wrote:
Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.

I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:
Even at 350 points a WK is better than a 375 point Imperial Knight. Reason it is better is the advantages it has being a GMC, higher Initiative and access to ranged D. The Imperial Knight is a good measuring stick in that it is considered balanced for it's points and abilities. An IK can dish out the damage but it can also be taken out in a single volley of shots. An IK army can be tabled in a single turn by more than one army or build. The WK is practically immune to everything except grav. WK will decimate IK on it's own as well. The only IK that can stand against the WK in melee is the Lancer, and the Atrops is about the only IK that MIGHT on occasion beat the WK in one on one shooting. Both are more expensive and less durable than the WK.

I wonder whether a pure-WK unbound army would win tournaments.

That's a good question.

So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone happy (including Eldar players):

-
1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP2 and Poison vs GMCs should only be -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before

2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably. Not only can the WK no longer get the "6" on the D table, but it now has double the chance to fail to even do damage. If you want, we can even lower the range of his cannons to 24"

3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs

--

It's much simpler to keep the current rules and make the WK worth what it's worth. You are simultaneously changing the value of a bunch of other units, as well.

 Galef wrote:
So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone (including Eldar players) happy:

1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before

2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably.

3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs

I'm sorry, but this is the same tired thing that you've been insisting on even before the poll I started. Public opinion is against you, Galef.

Those fixes are not actually fixes. They are only acceptable to eldar players.

395 point base wraithknight. No other changes. You pay for upgrades as normal.

That simple.

That's what the polls have demanded. That is where public opinion lies.

I could even argue for 425. Yes, it's that nuts. The sheer number of shots it can absorb is insane.

 Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone (including Eldar players) happy:

1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before

2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably.

3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs

I'm sorry, but this is the same tired thing that you've been insisting on even before the poll I started. Public opinion is against you, Galef.

Those fixes are not actually fixes. They are only acceptable to eldar players.

395 point base wraithknight. No other changes. You pay for upgrades as normal.

That simple.

That's what the polls have demanded. That is where public opinion lies.

Well I'm sorry if I don't wanna pay 400pts for a unit even if it is SUPER awesome. If I played Imperial Factions, I wouldn't pay that much for a IK either. Not because I think it isn't worth it, but because 400pts on 1 model is too many eggs in one basket. There's a reason why all IK or all WK armies don't win tourneys.

Please stop referring to your biased polls. None of my optional ideas were on your poll from the start because no one wants to put in the effort to come up with good, concise ideas.
I am trying to come up with simple ideas that will "fix" multiple problems. Just slapping an extra 100pts onto something is a lazy fix. Lazy rules writing is how GW got us in this position in the first place

-

 Galef wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone (including Eldar players) happy:

1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before

2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably.

3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs

I'm sorry, but this is the same tired thing that you've been insisting on even before the poll I started. Public opinion is against you, Galef.

Those fixes are not actually fixes. They are only acceptable to eldar players.

395 point base wraithknight. No other changes. You pay for upgrades as normal.

That simple.

That's what the polls have demanded. That is where public opinion lies.

Well I'm sorry if I don't wanna pay 400pts for a unit even if it is SUPER awesome. If I played Imperial Factions, I wouldn't pay that much for a IK either. Not because I think it isn't worth it, but because 400pts on 1 model is too many eggs in one basket.

You need to stop referring to your biased polls. None of my optional idea were on your poll from the start because no one want to put in the effort to come up with good, concise ideas.
I am trying to come up with simple ideas that will "fix" multiple problems. Just slapping and extra 100pts onto something is a lazy fix. Lazy rules writing is how GW got us in this position in the first place

A WK is a much safer basket than an IK. Yet, the IK certainly has its niche. I'm not sure Tyranid GMCs need these nerfs. The WK just needs to pay for it's specific combination of abilities. The Wraithlord is there as a cheaper alternative. I'd errata the Wraithlord to moving 9" and move through cover.

Galef wrote:Well I'm sorry if I don't wanna pay 400pts for a unit even if it is SUPER awesome. If I played Imperial Factions, I wouldn't pay that much for a IK either. Not because I think it isn't worth it, but because 400pts on 1 model is too many eggs in one basket.

Then stop using wraithknights. That simple.

You can't both be unwilling to pay the appropriate points cost for a model AND still insist that you're anything than someone who is exploiting unfair rules to your own advantage.

It just doesn't work that way.

Please stop referring to your biased polls. None of my optional ideas were on your poll from the start because no one wants to put in the effort to come up with good, concise ideas.
I am trying to come up with simple ideas that will "fix" multiple problems. Just slapping an extra 100pts onto something is a lazy fix. Lazy rules writing is how GW got us in this position in the first place

-

Your "fix," Galef, is this:

"Hey, why don't we slightly increase the cost of the wraithknight, decrease it's durability by 1/6th, and then add a bunch of free upgrades!"

To anyone who isn't an Eldar player, it's very clear to see that you're not actually wanting to nerf the wraithknight in any serious fashion.

Even after your "fix," the WK remains spammable and completely OP.

The answer is no. Just no. No to every bit of that.

 Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So here is what needs to happen for a WK to be 350pts only (with shoulder weapons standard) and HOPEFULLY make everyone (including Eldar players) happy:

1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP1 and Poison vs GMCs was only -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before

2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably.

3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs

I'm sorry, but this is the same tired thing that you've been insisting on even before the poll I started. Public opinion is against you, Galef.

Those fixes are not actually fixes. They are only acceptable to eldar players.

395 point base wraithknight. No other changes. You pay for upgrades as normal.

That simple.

That's what the polls have demanded. That is where public opinion lies.

Public opinion... of dakkdakka, not the entire 40k community. And even then, public opinion isn't always right, I want to say that's a fallacy of some kind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

That being said, it's empirically true that the cost of the WK is much closer to 400 than 295. Even higher, factoring in the have-not codices. But I'll settle for 400.

Wolfblade wrote:Public opinion... of dakkdakka, not the entire 40k community. And even then, public opinion isn't always right, I want to say that's a fallacy of some kind.

If I were making the argument, "Public opinion holds x; therefore, x is true," that is a fallacy. Argumentum ad populum.

Contextually, it's not fallacious.

Galef hasn't actually given any arguments in favor of the fairness of his own solution over the solution of mine (simply increase the points cost by 100).

The purpose of this thread, it seems to me, is simply to gauge public opinion. He's proposing a couple of ideas and seeing how they "bounce" off of people.

I've already done that. Public opinion agrees with me.

Public opinion may be wrong in this case, but that doesn't change the fact that public opinion is against Galef's proposal.

More importantly, we can mathhammer all the possible weapons in the game, and determine that the WK can only be engaged successfully by an extremely narrow range of weaponry with any realistic chance of success. Most importantly, these weapons EXCLUDE single shot heavy weapons, which is why the 400 pt price tag is justified. Making bright lances, lascannons, melta guns, multi meltas, missile launchers, dark lances, etc all jokes should be expensive.

Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan than A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.

I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?

And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.

400pts is an acceptable cost for a WK fully decked out (cuz it's only 30pts for both shoulder guns, trying to meet in the middle here, just tact them on!). But I have to ask: Does anyone even know what the Suncannon does? B/c a WK with it is NOT worth 400pts.

--

 Galef wrote:
Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.

I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?

And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.

There's nothing wrong with making it cost what it is worth. You can have guns standard, but that's now 425 pts. The WK is supposed to be an apocalypse-level super model. That warrants powerful rules and a high price tag. I think it's thematically better without the nerfs and more cost.

 Galef wrote:
Overall, I think 6-7 minor nerfs are a much better plan that A) make it PAY! or B) 1-2 major nerfs.

Of course you think that. You don't actually want to engage in fair fights.

If you wanted to engage in fair fights, you'd look at the statline, wargear, etc., realize that a model of that kind if worth at least 395 points, and pay accordingly.

Alternatively, you could proxy your eldar army for an ork army.

I keep pushing the shoulder guns as standard because A) it looks cool, B) You'd have to pay for it, I have been using that in my calculations believe it or not and C) the WK's little bro the WraithLord has 2 mini-guns standard, so why doesn't the WK?

And Nid GMCs are way WAY overcosted.

You're right, Galef. The Wraithlord has 2 mini-guns standard. So you should run your wraithknights with shoulder mounted scatter lasers.

Every time.

Base 430 points, including the scatter lasers (or 400 + however much the scatter lasers are worth).

Pay any additional points for upgrades as you feel desirable.

See how easy that is?

I also think there is a fundamental misunderstand of how compromising I'm being here. Using the IK crusader as a template, I could easily argue the WK should be 500 pts with double heavy wraith cannon.

"1st) We address the GMC/Stomp rules. "Stomp 6's are merely Str10 AP2 and Poison vs GMCs should only be -1 to the poison roll needed" as I stated before

2nd) We address Distort weapons. As I posted in the "Balancing Wraith Guard" thread, all "Distort" weapons should be D -1, with D-Scythes being D -2. This would fix most "Wraith" units in one go. If the WK can no longer 1-shot big targets, it's OP-ness drops considerably. Not only can the WK no longer get the "6" on the D table, but it now has double the chance to fail to even do damage. If you want, we can even lower the range of his cannons to 24"

3rd) We drop the WK's wounds down to 5. Wraith constructs have always relied on high T rather than having more wounds (See Wraithlord vs most other MCs). A WK should not have as many Wounds as an IK has HPs "

Riptide ends up being a big winner here as well. Unacceptable. It's healthier to have the full powered WK there to keep pounding Riptides, but just pay more.