I understand the dislike of the Eldar, as they are arrogant and hostile, and the orks, who are murderous warlike beings, but what about the few inbetween. If Big-E had been alive and well when we met the Tau, what do you think he would do to them? Why does the =][= use those orange monkeys, or the Dark Angels little dudes who carry the helmets for Captains? I know he has already made a thousand stupid mistakes, and so it seems he serves to fit the setting of Chaos and Grimdark they created, rather than the story developing into this. Like, they wrote the ending, where we are now, and then wrote the beginning to fit that, so they had to make him how he is. I think he would destroy the Tau, since he did the same thing with Horus and those advanced humans who you know who stole from.
The imperium has a history of using aliens that aren't "sentient" - like the jokaero (orange monkeys) who they use because they make stuff. That's ALL they do - make stuff - it's hardwired into their genes to be makers. If you capture one, it will just spend its time making stuff to facilitate escape. No idea what the night goblins the DA use are. Jawas perhaps?
There's an element of "this universe is for humans because of divine right".
I don't think there's an over-arching story arc for the game - it's like LOST - they make it up as they go along.
The Emperor was around the time, when aliens preyed on humanity, after the end of DAoT. Hell, even during that golden age, the majority of the Xenos were still devious, cruel and tried to destroy humans. The Emperor lived through all of this and saw it with his very eyes.
Not to mention that even if mankind had good dealing with the majority of alien races, he was still the main advocate of "humans shall rule the galaxy". So you know, either way he was a bit of a racist, xenophobic a-hole.
chromedog wrote: The imperium has a history of using aliens that aren't "sentient" - like the jokaero (orange monkeys) who they use because they make stuff. That's ALL they do - make stuff - it's hardwired into their genes to be makers. If you capture one, it will just spend its time making stuff to facilitate escape. No idea what the night goblins the DA use are. Jawas perhaps?
There's an element of "this universe is for humans because of divine right".
I don't think there's an over-arching story arc for the game - it's like LOST - they make it up as they go along.
Watchers in the Dark are more "they're all over the house and we don't know what to do. We just....leave them."
Yeah, the Imperium and the Emperor aren't grimdark for fun, they have to be that way because it is the best way to endure and survive: the vast, vast majority of the xenos civilisation tried / try to destroy mankind.
You mentioned the tau, for example.
What do they want ? To destroy the Imperium and to take control of mankind by absorbing them into their own empire.
This is inacceptable.
Because Xenos in 40k do not want to collaborate or join together as equals. They wish to enslave, destroy or harvest humanity. Any peaceful alien races seemed to have died out long ago so all that is left are the crazy ones.
In that situation the only solution is to wipe them out.
Well, the Emperor had a fascist theme going on. Humans v Xenos is just one of the 'outsiders' that validate his tyranny. As well, though, it could be that the Apotheosis he was seeking required human souls. Xenos souls got in the way of that.
Xenos have a tendency to oppress and subjugate mankind, or occasionally create new Chaos Gods.
Best to exterminate them as a matter of procedure, unless their existence can be justified like the Jokaero's can [and even they live in the captivity of the Inquisition]
Because the emperor is a technobarbarian warlord who and his empire is build on conquering all who bow before him and purging all those who don't or are too different to fit in his grand idea.
Orks wanna punch everything for the laughs.
Eldar are willing to slaughter trillions of 'lesser races' to save one of their own.
Tau are just as bad (worse, depending on how you view mind control).
most other races we've seen in the fluff are malevolent.
Necrons want mass genocide 'cause you're on their lawn.
'Nids just wanna eat you.
the thing is: durring and before the golden age of humanity, humans were subjugated to some terrible crap, and the Emperor saw that, and the Emperor would NOT let it happen again.
Brennonjw wrote: Orks wanna punch everything for the laughs.
Eldar are willing to slaughter trillions of 'lesser races' to save one of their own.
Tau are just as bad (worse, depending on how you view mind control).
most other races we've seen in the fluff are malevolent.
Necrons want mass genocide 'cause you're on their lawn.
'Nids just wanna eat you.
the thing is: durring and before the golden age of humanity, humans were subjugated to some terrible crap, and the Emperor saw that, and the Emperor would NOT let it happen again.
That would make sense if there weren't alien races perfectly non threatening and happy to co exist. The Emperor really just encourages aliens to try and smash the Imperium.
Odd, I thought I remembered in the older editions the Emperor occasionally collaborated with xenos races for mutual benefit - so long as humanity got the better deal and/or the alien races willingly submitted to human superiority. Am I simply misremembering this?
He did indeed collaborate with powerfull xenos species with in secret. He was just not the most reliable partner and preferred to crush them / eradicate their entire civilisation if there was not enough to be gained from it. It is still referenced at in the newer fluff / novels. The thing is that he a corpse now this makes contacting him hard for most xenos species who used to contact him in the past.
Stormonu wrote: Odd, I thought I remembered in the older editions the Emperor occasionally collaborated with xenos races for mutual benefit - so long as humanity got the better deal and/or the alien races willingly submitted to human superiority. Am I simply misremembering this?
Old Fluff had more interaction with alien races. After all one could have a Farseer in your army. I like the current fluff. Imagine humanity in a world where we are not the top of the food chain. How would we feel about the other predators?
The out-of-universe reason is that the setting is a dystopia in which everyone is evil, and in this particular respect the Imperial creed is based on the real-world ideologies of Nazism and Manifest Destiny.
Or at least it used to be that way. 40K fluff has been getting more child-friendly
Brennonjw wrote: Orks wanna punch everything for the laughs.
Eldar are willing to slaughter trillions of 'lesser races' to save one of their own.
Tau are just as bad (worse, depending on how you view mind control).
most other races we've seen in the fluff are malevolent.
Necrons want mass genocide 'cause you're on their lawn.
'Nids just wanna eat you.
the thing is: durring and before the golden age of humanity, humans were subjugated to some terrible crap, and the Emperor saw that, and the Emperor would NOT let it happen again.
That would make sense if there weren't alien races perfectly non threatening and happy to co exist. The Emperor really just encourages aliens to try and smash the Imperium.
Like? Nearly every alien race, bar the Tau (who would instead seek to take humanity's colonies one by one and usurp them under the pretence for the Greater Good) has shown hostility to humanity.
Orks? Naturally.
Eldar? They'll do anything to protect their own kind.
Slaugth? Yes.
Hrud? They migrate without care, spreading entropy as they will.
Tyranids? Need to eat somewhere.
Kroot and Vespid? Buyable, but still generally under thrall of the Tau.
Tau based races are the only ones not trying to destroy humanity - instead, they're trying to usurp it.
If the Imperium didn't fight back, they'd be wiped out by the next millennia.
Like? Nearly every alien race, bar the Tau (who would instead seek to take humanity's colonies one by one and usurp them under the pretence for the Greater Good) has shown hostility to humanity.
Na not at all. The passive alien species aren't playable races but the fluff is filled with non aggressive species. Allmost all of them had to wiped out of existence just for being sentient and noncompliant or just, being general inconvenience, where unfit as cattle / pets or just had to die because of political reasons on terra.
The Tau on the other hand are openly hostile to the IoM since it did not agree to be slaves of the fishy overlords.
Like? Nearly every alien race, bar the Tau (who would instead seek to take humanity's colonies one by one and usurp them under the pretence for the Greater Good) has shown hostility to humanity.
Na not at all. The passive alien species aren't playable races but the fluff is filled with non aggressive species. Allmost all of them had to wiped out of existence just for being sentient and noncompliant or just, being general inconvenience, where unfit as cattle / pets or just had to die because of political reasons on terra.
The Tau on the other hand are openly hostile to the IoM since it did not agree to be slaves of the fishy overlords.
Could you name some of these harmless races? Genuinely curious?
As for the Tau comment, you think it's wrong to resist what might be called slavery at the hands of another upstart race? The Tau tried to usurp the Imperium, the Imperium said no. Tau got hostile, Imperium reacted. Why is the Imperium at fault?
Like? Nearly every alien race, bar the Tau (who would instead seek to take humanity's colonies one by one and usurp them under the pretence for the Greater Good) has shown hostility to humanity.
Na not at all. The passive alien species aren't playable races but the fluff is filled with non aggressive species. Allmost all of them had to wiped out of existence just for being sentient and noncompliant or just, being general inconvenience, where unfit as cattle / pets or just had to die because of political reasons on terra.
The Tau on the other hand are openly hostile to the IoM since it did not agree to be slaves of the fishy overlords.
Could you name some of these harmless races? Genuinely curious?
As for the Tau comment, you think it's wrong to resist what might be called slavery at the hands of another upstart race? The Tau tried to usurp the Imperium, the Imperium said no. Tau got hostile, Imperium reacted. Why is the Imperium at fault?
The only non hostile alien race I can think are called grox or something like that. They're basically space cows.
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Like? Nearly every alien race, bar the Tau (who would instead seek to take humanity's colonies one by one and usurp them under the pretence for the Greater Good) has shown hostility to humanity.
Na not at all. The passive alien species aren't playable races but the fluff is filled with non aggressive species. Allmost all of them had to wiped out of existence just for being sentient and noncompliant or just, being general inconvenience, where unfit as cattle / pets or just had to die because of political reasons on terra.
The Tau on the other hand are openly hostile to the IoM since it did not agree to be slaves of the fishy overlords.
Could you name some of these harmless races? Genuinely curious?
As for the Tau comment, you think it's wrong to resist what might be called slavery at the hands of another upstart race? The Tau tried to usurp the Imperium, the Imperium said no. Tau got hostile, Imperium reacted. Why is the Imperium at fault?
The only non hostile alien race I can think are called grox or something like that. They're basically space cows.
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Exactly, plus I don't think grox are even sentient?
oldzoggy wrote: A modern day example can be found in the beast arises series. There is a Bug type alien (not nids) that will only attack if it is provoked first.
An other recent example are the Diasporex and xenos allies who where friendly to start off with but refused to follow imperial creed, join the IoM and betray their xenos allies. As a result of this they had to be killed off.
Like? Nearly every alien race, bar the Tau (who would instead seek to take humanity's colonies one by one and usurp them under the pretence for the Greater Good) has shown hostility to humanity.
Na not at all. The passive alien species aren't playable races but the fluff is filled with non aggressive species. Allmost all of them had to wiped out of existence just for being sentient and noncompliant or just, being general inconvenience, where unfit as cattle / pets or just had to die because of political reasons on terra.
The Tau on the other hand are openly hostile to the IoM since it did not agree to be slaves of the fishy overlords.
Could you name some of these harmless races? Genuinely curious?
As for the Tau comment, you think it's wrong to resist what might be called slavery at the hands of another upstart race? The Tau tried to usurp the Imperium, the Imperium said no. Tau got hostile, Imperium reacted. Why is the Imperium at fault?
The only non hostile alien race I can think are called grox or something like that. They're basically space cows.
.
Exactly, plus I don't think grox are even sentient?
The fact is even Grox are hostile, they are very dangerous. This is why they lobotomize them, there was rules to play them in a White Dwarf^^
Like? Nearly every alien race, bar the Tau (who would instead seek to take humanity's colonies one by one and usurp them under the pretence for the Greater Good) has shown hostility to humanity.
Na not at all. The passive alien species aren't playable races but the fluff is filled with non aggressive species. Allmost all of them had to wiped out of existence just for being sentient and noncompliant or just, being general inconvenience, where unfit as cattle / pets or just had to die because of political reasons on terra.
The Tau on the other hand are openly hostile to the IoM since it did not agree to be slaves of the fishy overlords.
Could you name some of these harmless races? Genuinely curious?
As for the Tau comment, you think it's wrong to resist what might be called slavery at the hands of another upstart race? The Tau tried to usurp the Imperium, the Imperium said no. Tau got hostile, Imperium reacted. Why is the Imperium at fault?
The only non hostile alien race I can think are called grox or something like that. They're basically space cows.
.
Exactly, plus I don't think grox are even sentient?
The fact is even Grox are hostile, they are very dangerous. This is why they lobotomize them, there was rules to play them in a White Dwarf^^
Hostile in a "we hate humanity" way or in a "defend ourselves" way?
If all xenos were hostile, then the Tau Empire would be at constant war with aliens instead of living with them.
The Imperium wants to kill all xenos for the same reason it wants to kill all mutants -- because the Imperium is Nazis in Space (among other things), and the Emperor is Space Hitler.
Or it was before 40K's fluff writers decided to appeal to a younger demographic.
Alcibiades wrote: If all xenos were hostile, then the Tau Empire would be at constant war with aliens instead of living with them.
The Imperium wants to kill all xenos for the same reason it wants to kill all mutants -- because the Imperium is Nazis in Space (among other things), and the Emperor is Space Hitler.
Or it was before 40K's fluff writers decided to appeal to a younger demographic.
I'm not seeing how it isn't still that. It's hardly a typical child friendly thing as it is.
Alcibiades wrote: If all xenos were hostile, then the Tau Empire would be at constant war with aliens instead of living with them.
The Imperium wants to kill all xenos for the same reason it wants to kill all mutants -- because the Imperium is Nazis in Space (among other things), and the Emperor is Space Hitler.
Or it was before 40K's fluff writers decided to appeal to a younger demographic.
Uh...the Tau Empire IS at constant war with aliens. They're constantly harassed by Orks who obviously never submit to the Greater Good, they've been raided several times by the Dark Eldar, they've barely been able to hold their own against minor hive fleets (thanks mainly to deus ex machine like bio-engineered viruses or the Imperium coming in with forces to swing it into their favour). Hell, humans technically count as alien in their case and they've yet to really deal with the existential and monolithic enemy that the Imperium represents towards them. Sure they've incorporated some xenos species but that doesn't say much given the vast bulk of xenos in the galaxy are so far hostile to them.
I should really read up on them again. Where is it from ?
It's old, but basically a band of orks were investigating a derelict. The crew had been devoured by Rippers that had then evolved to take advantage of new dna. All they found were these small creatures that they took home with them because they were "downright orky". And thus the squig joined the remainder of the orkoid race.
I just realized I replaced every instance of grow with squiggly in this thread... so yea. Different subject and all, but hey, you learned something.
I knew that there was a strnge connection between squigish beast and ripper swarms in the past but I have never heard of this one. Can you point me to the book / white dwarf I would really like to read more on this.
The Emperor Hate Xenos because it makes
the Emperor scary and otherwise the setting would not be grimdark..
Humans are space nazis its their thing.
I like the ugly and serious design of the humans.
Fantasy racism and mutants are the space jews
and xenos well you know what is represents.
The Emperors ideology is basically to
bring humanity to its full potential through just rule
which means conquering the galaxy
and making humans the new master race
the same way the old Slanns or the Eldars.
But all of that is fethed now, now only
irrational hatred and the church remains
and its war all the time.
WAR YEA!
It's cool, grimdark and an critic of real world human history.
The Emperor is an authoritarian figure who represent the best and worst of humanity.
And who are the Xenos, originally the only Xenos where Eldar and Orks I think.
Eldars are the shiny ones, Orks the funny ones and humans slash space marines are the serious ones.
Neither Eldar nor Orks has been very supportive with humanity.
Consider what their relations are to humanity.
Orks and Eldar trade with humans
only in morbid ways, Ork mercenaries can turn on humans anytime
and Eldars trade with human rouge traders is really wierd
because humans cannot fathom Eldar economy and their needs.
The Tau are basically designed to feth with the setting,
I don't like the Tau fluff, it's so superficial.
It is what is exciting with warhammer 40k,
because its realistic and its dark.
In real life we would kill the aliens as soon as we hear about them simply because
they violates our sense of humanity.
40k races are based on space fantasy races which is so fun
and fantasy races don't get along very well.
It is a a fact all races are opposed to each other and cannot coexist
and human colonies have been attacked by aliens for so long
that everyone hates them.
All races basically wants to exterminate all other races
except for the Tau that just doesn't fit in the setting.
It's dark universe where no groups can coexist peacefully ever
and humanity has discovered that the universe
is hostile and horrible place.
Each race in 40k are non-human, there is nothing in common with humanity
because that is what an extraterrestrial would be like.
Eldars look like humans but their minds are not human.
Orks only wants to kill you, the only trade is to help the ork kill something else and then you.
Eldars, are so technologically superior that there is nothing they need from humans
and Eldars see humans as we see apes.
Tau aren't an exception. They fight with some races. They subjugate some races instead of exterminate. It's just as bad if not worse. Would you rather die fighting for your independence or become a castrated mind controlled drone?
Olgerth Istaarn wrote: Tau aren't an exception. They fight with some races. They subjugate some races instead of exterminate. It's just as bad if not worse. Would you rather die fighting for your independence or become a castrated mind controlled drone?
Uhh, you know that the Farsight Enclaves are a multi-species, multi-ethnic confederation of democratically-governed worlds, right? #NotAllTau
Besides that, even taking FSE fluff into account -- where the Tau Empire proper being a theocratic dictatorship is portrayed as a bad thing -- the Ethereals' rule is still a better deal than most humans get, outside of Rogue Traders and planetary governors. Imperial commanders assumed that the gue'vesa human auxiliaries on Taros would be broken, dispirited slaves. But it turned out they were willing to fight, and fight hard, for the so-called Greater Good.
You don't have to look far to find rumours of potentially dodgy stuff that imperial Tau did, like how they may have mind-controlled the Vespids and may have sterilized the humans of Kronus. But however creepy and underhanded you find them, a Water Caste diplomat's "Hello! We would like to be friends" is better than what literally every other playable faction in 40k will offer you at first sight. With the possible exception of FSE, who really do want to be friends (albeit cautiously) rather than consume your resources and supplant your way of life.
oldzoggy wrote: Because the emperor is a technobarbarian warlord who and his empire is build on conquering all who bow before him and purging all those who don't or are too different to fit in his grand idea.
He is not the good guy in this story.
IF there is a good guy in this universe.. Who would it be? I would venture to say the tyranids as they don't have an agenda save for consumption, reproducing and moving.. Basically just pure animalistic intentions of survival.
oldzoggy wrote: Because the emperor is a technobarbarian warlord who and his empire is build on conquering all who bow before him and purging all those who don't or are too different to fit in his grand idea.
He is not the good guy in this story.
IF there is a good guy in this universe.. Who would it be? I would venture to say the tyranids as they don't have an agenda save for consumption, reproducing and moving.. Basically just pure animalistic intentions of survival.
That's more an absence of evil than good. I'd give it to Eldar or Tau. While they do horrible things to other races it's born of a need to survive whereas others like Orks do it for fun and humanity wages war willy nilly out of stupidity.
The argument that there are 'no peaceful aliens' just isn't true. But I've had this same discussion on this site before so I'll not put the same amount of effort into making it, suffice to say in the Horus Heresy we meet a collection of space bound humans and aliens who desire no conflict with the Imperium but the Great Crusade kills them all anyway, if I'm not mistaking the last captain's line before he dies is literally something like 'we just wanted to be left alone' but its a while ago and my memory's hazy on the matter.
Then there's the aliens living peacefully with the Interex, to my knowledge we're never told of any offensive actions taken by the Tarellians before they get virus bombed, there's that alien race who was mentioned to have helped an Imperial Fleet fight off a Tyranid hive fleet then the Imperium wiped them out anyway, the Macharian Crusade met some weird Squid Aliens who tried to initiate peace talks and were very friendly with the humans but then the human general tried to just blow them up from orbit but they had a shield of some sort so he ran away.
There are more, these are what I pull from memory and can be bothered to put up. Also, yeah, as has been pointed out the Tau have multiple, over ten, peaceful alien races they cooperate with without having to genocide them. Also a sweeping statement such as 'all aliens under Tau rule are castrated enslaved mind drones' is just ridiculous and invective and shows that you've never read virtually the majority of the fluff displaying Tau interactions with humans or Kroot.
Suffice to say peaceful aliens exist. Suffice to say genocidal aliens exist. But, the thing is, everyone has to put up with those genocidal aliens. The Imperium isn't uniquely persecuted by Orks, as pointed out Orks threaten ALL RACES. But the Tau, for example, don't use the existence of the Orks and Tyranid as an excuse to argue that any alien species must automatically be exterminated.
Honestly I'm always incredibly shocked the Tau aren't genocidal to humans. They put themselves at an enormous disadvantage, as shown in Taros, because they're willing to show mercy when they're enemy is not. Farsight and other Tau commander's constant willingness to spare enemies and humans shocks me when one considers that their enemies will literally hunt down and kill every Tau man, woman and child.
But I agree the Farsight Enclaves are probably the best overall.
EDIT: Oh, also, I do find it interesting that someone argues that if there are only humans there will be no war...because humans never war with themselves, right? I mean its not like the biggest conflicts the Imperium is ever embroiled in aren't literally civil wars?
The emporer is a xenophobic power hungry megalomaniac who is manipulating the human race to obtain enough psychic energy to empower himself into chaotic godlike entity in the warp. Not dissimilar from slannesh ascendancy into the warp by consuming billions of eldar psychic souls.
The emporer however and ironically designed his own golden throne that siphons whatever psychic power he can from humanity in order to fill up his own gas tank to make it into the warp and establish himself as the "star child" which is basically his own plan to become a god to "protect" mankind. If he truly designed the golden throne then he knew all of this was going to Happen but it was all planned and set up from the start.
gungo wrote: The emporer is a xenophobic power hungry megalomaniac who is manipulating the human race to obtain enough psychic energy to empower himself into chaotic godlike entity in the warp. Not dissimilar from slannesh ascendancy into the warp by consuming billions of eldar psychic souls.
The emporer however and ironically designed his own golden throne that siphons whatever psychic power he can from humanity in order to fill up his own gas tank to make it into the warp and establish himself as the "star child" which is basically his own plan to become a god to "protect" mankind. If he truly designed the golden throne then he knew all of this was going to Happen but it was all planned and set up from the start.
That is not what happened with Slaanesh. Slaanesh happened because of years of crazy pleasure cults.
I like the "If the Emperor Had a Text to Speech Device" answer, myself.
It basically amounts to "Because Xenos are dicks, I wouldn't have a problem if they weren't dicks, but they are."
The thing is, the Emperor is out to maximize humanity's future. As a general rule, powerful alien empires are often opposed to his implementation of this idea.
The Emperor doesn't just oppose 'powerful' alien empires. He opposes, and destroys, an Xenos encountered, as demonstrated with the group who simply wished to be 'left alone' or the virus bombing of the Tarellians.
Also humans are enormous dicks* in the setting, catastrophically xenophobic ones. There as bad as Orks and Tyranids since, like the Orks and Tyranids, they wish to extinguish all other life in the galaxy.
Although they are still several shades of horrible Necron (in the new fluff where we are told Imotekh has dozens of alien nations as his vassals), Eldar and Tau are all three preferable alternatives to Humans, Orks, Tyranids or Chaos since the first three mentioned races do not seek to eradicate all other life in the galaxy.
In fact in the Asurmen book we're even told Eldar absolutely ignored any race which did not attack them, except for the elder equivalent of hippies who would live with these races to understand 'mortality' a bit better.
If all powerful Xenos Empires were dicks then the old Eldar Empire would have eradicated mankind ages ago, Imotekh would not allow a dozen alien nations to be his vassals, Tau would not allow human subjects of their Empire to practise freedom of religion by worshipping the state religion of their xenophobic opponent and many examples beyond this I'm too tired to list.
The Emperor is a xenophobe (on top of several other serious issues) and if the only reason he can advance for his position is that SOME alien races like the Orks represent an existential threat then that's a fine justification...to commit xenocide on the Orks, but cannot be rationally stretched to justify xenocide against any alien automatically (or human too mutated, one must not forget that humans who don't fall into the correct phenotype were murdered as well).
If, on the other hand, the justification is simple 'destroy something which may POTENTIALLY threaten you before it can realize that potential' then fine...except then the Emperor, and humans, should eradicate each other first since we pose, and are historically documented within this universe to pose, the greatest threat to ourselves barring Chaos (which is only powerful and a threat to us largely because of ourselves).
*Dicks here clearly meaning more than simply being 'jerks' or 'crimes against humanity' something everyone in this setting (barring perhaps the Farsight Enclaves) practises to some extent or another. Dicks here refers to a sufficient scale of atrocity, murder and evil which is only really perpetuated in the current setting by the Chaos Gods, their servants, the Tyranid and Ork Races, the Dark Eldar and the Imperium of Man. Falling below these is most likely the New Fluff Necron, a bit below them the Craftworld Eldar, significantly below them the Tau Empire and then way at the bottom the Farsight Enclaves. Just want to clarify the use of Dicks since its clearly something stronger than the colloquial use of it we normally make use of.
Anemone wrote: The Emperor doesn't just oppose 'powerful' alien empires.
Like I said:
Melissia wrote: It basically amounts to "Because Xenos are dicks, I wouldn't have a problem if they weren't dicks, but they are."
He probably just doesn't believe aliens that claim that they just don't want to be left alone. Like Tzeentch, he can't fathom the idea of a species not scheming to be on top of the food chain.
Anemone wrote: The Emperor doesn't just oppose 'powerful' alien empires.
Like I said:
Melissia wrote: It basically amounts to "Because Xenos are dicks, I wouldn't have a problem if they weren't dicks, but they are."
He probably just doesn't believe aliens that claim that they just don't want to be left alone. Like Tzeentch, he can't fathom the idea of a species not scheming to be on top of the food chain.
Exactly. It is pragmatism in a sense, he believes (rightly for the most part) that given the opportunity every xenos race would eradicate all of humanity in a heartbeat if it meant a better situation for their own species. So why bother giving them the opportunity?
The thing is that most xenos want humanity dead because of their stupid hostility. If the Emperor had been rational and attempted to make alliances then humanity could have a stronger position than the current guaranteed extinction scenario.
pm713 wrote: The thing is that most xenos want humanity dead because of their stupid hostility. If the Emperor had been rational and attempted to make alliances then humanity could have a stronger position than the current guaranteed extinction scenario.
Incorrect. The disposition of Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Necrons in regards to humanity have nothing to do with how hostile humans have or haven't been. Craftworld Eldar would likely have cooperated with, or at the very least ignored, humanity if not for the Imperium's xenophobic policies but they would still gladly sacrifice billions of humans if it meant putting one of their craftworlds in a more favorable situation.
Remember the Long Night after the birth of Slaneesh?
That is when all trade and alliances with xenos crumbled and they set upon feasting the isolated and defenceless worlds of humanity.
The Emperor remembered. He did not forgive. He does not want this to happen again.
It is grim, it is dark, he is racist - for a reason. You do not call someone that is worried about a fire a firephobe after he saw is house burn down.
pm713 wrote: The thing is that most xenos want humanity dead because of their stupid hostility. If the Emperor had been rational and attempted to make alliances then humanity could have a stronger position than the current guaranteed extinction scenario.
Incorrect. The disposition of Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Necrons in regards to humanity have nothing to do with how hostile humans have or haven't been. Craftworld Eldar would likely have cooperated with, or at the very least ignored, humanity if not for the Imperium's xenophobic policies but they would still gladly sacrifice billions of humans if it meant putting one of their craftworlds in a more favorable situation.
You're telling me that there are so few species in the GALAXY that four makes a majority?
pm713 wrote: The thing is that most xenos want humanity dead because of their stupid hostility. If the Emperor had been rational and attempted to make alliances then humanity could have a stronger position than the current guaranteed extinction scenario.
Incorrect. The disposition of Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Necrons in regards to humanity have nothing to do with how hostile humans have or haven't been. Craftworld Eldar would likely have cooperated with, or at the very least ignored, humanity if not for the Imperium's xenophobic policies but they would still gladly sacrifice billions of humans if it meant putting one of their craftworlds in a more favorable situation.
Na eldar are not the friendly or even spathic neighbours you want them to be to them we are vermin, cattle or apes at best.
A large faction of those murderous pointy eared xenos soul preys upon the weak and steal their loved ones in the night while poisoning and slaughtering the rest.
The other factions ignore you until they predict that you planet of civilisation somehow interferes with their grand plans. Then they exterminate you like the vermin we are to them.
It might be best to consider all playable xenos races as a serious threat to humanity. What would be the fun in playing a peaceful and harmless race in a tabletop wargame.
Note that this does not mean that there are no harmless npc races it is just that you can't play them as a player
pm713 wrote: The thing is that most xenos want humanity dead because of their stupid hostility. If the Emperor had been rational and attempted to make alliances then humanity could have a stronger position than the current guaranteed extinction scenario.
Incorrect. The disposition of Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Necrons in regards to humanity have nothing to do with how hostile humans have or haven't been. Craftworld Eldar would likely have cooperated with, or at the very least ignored, humanity if not for the Imperium's xenophobic policies but they would still gladly sacrifice billions of humans if it meant putting one of their craftworlds in a more favorable situation.
You're telling me that there are so few species in the GALAXY that four makes a majority?
When two of those species are numerous enough to conquer the entire galaxy on their own, yes. Orks and Tyranids together decidedly account for "most xenos".
pm713 wrote: The thing is that most xenos want humanity dead because of their stupid hostility. If the Emperor had been rational and attempted to make alliances then humanity could have a stronger position than the current guaranteed extinction scenario.
Incorrect. The disposition of Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Necrons in regards to humanity have nothing to do with how hostile humans have or haven't been. Craftworld Eldar would likely have cooperated with, or at the very least ignored, humanity if not for the Imperium's xenophobic policies but they would still gladly sacrifice billions of humans if it meant putting one of their craftworlds in a more favorable situation.
You're telling me that there are so few species in the GALAXY that four makes a majority?
When two of those species are numerous enough to conquer the entire galaxy on their own, yes. Orks and Tyranids together decidedly account for "most xenos".
Except for the fact that the Orks didn't conquer it they filled the power void when the Eldar Empire went bang and when the Emperor started out the Tyranids weren't around therefore they cannot be used as reasoning for mass hostility. Same for Necrons.
We're going way off topic here. Your original point was that xenos only want humanity dead because of their hostility, I strongly disagree with that statement. You mention how the Tyranids and Necrons weren't present when the Emperor enforced the current xenophobic policies, but it doesn't matter. They are present now, and a more friendly attitude towards aliens would mean nothing to either of them.
Orblivion wrote: We're going way off topic here. Your original point was that xenos only want humanity dead because of their hostility, I strongly disagree with that statement.
Why? Let's take a look at the Great Crusade where several succesful Human/Xenos alliances flourished. This shows that Xenos were perfectly happy to work with humans. Then let's look at a couple of Xenos who are currently hostile.
1. Craftworlders. They're out to survive so currently they're essentially at war with humanity because the Imperium wants to kill them. That's it. Without that they probably aren't going to be best buds but they're also not going to directly go to war with mankind either.
2. Tau. These are a different lot as they don't want to be left alone. They want to unite everyone in their Empire and the Greater Good. Now again with the attitude of kill on sight you're guaranteed war. Without it there is admittedly a chance of war but there's a bigger chance that the Imperium still being a powerful and large Empire isn't going to end up in a war but rather a peaceful co existence.
Then you have all manner of minor Xenos and while some are going to be hostile anyway there's going to be a lot who just want to live therefore will range from not friends but not enemies to perfectly happy to be allies.
So you have examples of Xenos - Human alliances that work. You have Xenos who would both want and benefit from peace if not alliances. Yet for some reason you think that all these beings will just want to fight because. Some things will like Orks but most will not.
Edit: Okay a friendlier attitude won't stop Tyranids. You know what does help? Being stronger because you aren't fighting literally everything.
There were plenty examples of hostile xenos during the Great Crusade as well. In fact, xenos had enslaved humanity in sections of our own solar system when the Emperor finally rose to power. The very first xenos he encountered were hostile.
pm713 wrote: What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?
The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?
pm713 wrote: What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?
The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?
Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?
pm713 wrote: What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?
The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?
Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?
Yes, do you? Those xenos were not in an alliance with the Imperium. They were in an alliance with isolated human nations. If those human nations willingly joined the Imperium the new culture may have clashed with the xenos enough for the alliance to fall apart, after all the Imperium believes it is humanity's right to rule the galaxy. If they resisted, the Imperium would have broken them. Had the xenos came to their aid, they become enemies of the Imperium. Had they not, the Imperium becomes enemies of theirs.
pm713 wrote: What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?
The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?
Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?
Yes, do you? Those xenos were not in an alliance with the Imperium. They were in an alliance with isolated human nations. If those human nations willingly joined the Imperium the new culture may have clashed with the xenos enough for the alliance to fall apart, after all the Imperium believes it is humanity's right to rule the galaxy. If they resisted, the Imperium would have broken them. Had the xenos came to their aid, they become enemies of the Imperium. Had they not, the Imperium becomes enemies of theirs.
It could also not clash and the Imperium could have been part of a galaxy spanning alliance with the collective power and knowledge to prosper rather than slow and horrible death before extinction.
pm713 wrote: What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?
The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?
Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?
Yes, do you? Those xenos were not in an alliance with the Imperium. They were in an alliance with isolated human nations. If those human nations willingly joined the Imperium the new culture may have clashed with the xenos enough for the alliance to fall apart, after all the Imperium believes it is humanity's right to rule the galaxy. If they resisted, the Imperium would have broken them. Had the xenos came to their aid, they become enemies of the Imperium. Had they not, the Imperium becomes enemies of theirs.
It could also not clash and the Imperium could have been part of a galaxy spanning alliance with the collective power and knowledge to prosper rather than slow and horrible death before extinction.
The Emperor didn't want a galaxy spanning alliance, he wanted a galaxy spanning human empire. Whether he hated xenos or not, how many xenos species do you think existed that would have just gone along with that?
pm713 wrote: What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?
The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?
Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?
Yes, do you? Those xenos were not in an alliance with the Imperium. They were in an alliance with isolated human nations. If those human nations willingly joined the Imperium the new culture may have clashed with the xenos enough for the alliance to fall apart, after all the Imperium believes it is humanity's right to rule the galaxy. If they resisted, the Imperium would have broken them. Had the xenos came to their aid, they become enemies of the Imperium. Had they not, the Imperium becomes enemies of theirs.
It could also not clash and the Imperium could have been part of a galaxy spanning alliance with the collective power and knowledge to prosper rather than slow and horrible death before extinction.
The Emperor didn't want a galaxy spanning alliance, he wanted a galaxy spanning human empire. Whether he hated xenos or not, how many xenos species do you think existed that would have just gone along with that?
Admittedly probably none. Which brings us back to the original point that humanity's current state is a result of a certain someone's stupidity/irrationality.
There is (IIRC) a mention of peace talks being conducted between Horus and the Luna Wolves and a human-alien planet, which goes bugger up when Erebus nicks the Anathame and plunges the planet into war to cover it up.
Fulgrim also encounters an alien race (The Laer), and I believe that there was talk of conducting treaties before he decided they were going to be wiped off the face of the galaxy because he was the Phoenician,
So the Great Crusade wasn't always hostile, but there were very specific criteria you had to meet before the table came out.
HCMistborn wrote: I understand the dislike of the Eldar, as they are arrogant and hostile, and the orks, who are murderous warlike beings, but what about the few inbetween. If Big-E had been alive and well when we met the Tau, what do you think he would do to them? Why does the =][= use those orange monkeys, or the Dark Angels little dudes who carry the helmets for Captains? I know he has already made a thousand stupid mistakes, and so it seems he serves to fit the setting of Chaos and Grimdark they created, rather than the story developing into this. Like, they wrote the ending, where we are now, and then wrote the beginning to fit that, so they had to make him how he is. I think he would destroy the Tau, since he did the same thing with Horus and those advanced humans who you know who stole from.
At Mankind's height, they were among the big kids on the block. Most xenos were considered inconsequential. Any that tried anything funny got smashed. Those that were more civilized, like the Eldar, ended up signing non-aggression pacts with Mankind's ancient federation.
Then the Age of Strife came along, and xenos that were kept down for so long, or those previously unknown, swooped down on Mankind's worlds and ran amok. Of course, the Eldar probably didn't notice since they were sinking faster into the pit of corruption. Some probably joined in on the festivities to get their jollies on killing and raping.
The man who would become Emperor lived through this. How much he knew about the situation in the galaxy is subject to speculation. But nasty xenos races had moved into Earth's solar system and set up shop, especially among the outer planets. He was certainly aware of that, and decided he would not tolerate xenos occupying soil that rightfully belonged to the Human race.
During the Great Crusade, xenos that weren't occupying formerly Human territory, or were not a threat to Mankind, were occasionally left alone (unless there was something of value on said world. Then said xenos were screwed).
In truth, the Emperor took both a "better safe than sorry" and pragmatic approach to the issue of xenos. The Imperium didn't go out of it's way to wipe out every species they encountered. The kind of rampant, fanatical xenophobia the Imperium of Man is famous for didn't come about until long after the Heresy.
Thairne wrote: Remember the Long Night after the birth of Slaneesh?
That is when all trade and alliances with xenos crumbled and they set upon feasting the isolated and defenceless worlds of humanity.
The Emperor remembered. He did not forgive. He does not want this to happen again.
It is grim, it is dark, he is racist - for a reason. You do not call someone that is worried about a fire a firephobe after he saw is house burn down.
This. The galaxy is populated by living weapons like the Nids, Orks and Eldar or brainwashed cultists like the Tau. The Eldar think they are a noble and educated species but the tragedy of their race includes Kaela Mensha Khaine- their wargod that resides in the heart of every Eldar. They were bred as psychic weapons to combat the Necrons and left to their own devices they tried to find another purpose.
Other races may have been corrupted by chaos- be overtly hostile to outsiders or just be sitting on something humanity needs.
There may be races that humanity could genuinely co-exist with but these will be few and far between in such a hostile galaxy and Humanity will likely kill them anyway, just to be on the safe side.
Orblivion wrote: We're going way off topic here. Your original point was that xenos only want humanity dead because of their hostility, I strongly disagree with that statement.
Why? Let's take a look at the Great Crusade where several succesful Human/Xenos alliances flourished. This shows that Xenos were perfectly happy to work with humans. Then let's look at a couple of Xenos who are currently hostile.
1. Craftworlders. They're out to survive so currently they're essentially at war with humanity because the Imperium wants to kill them. That's it. Without that they probably aren't going to be best buds but they're also not going to directly go to war with mankind either.
2. Tau. These are a different lot as they don't want to be left alone. They want to unite everyone in their Empire and the Greater Good. Now again with the attitude of kill on sight you're guaranteed war. Without it there is admittedly a chance of war but there's a bigger chance that the Imperium still being a powerful and large Empire isn't going to end up in a war but rather a peaceful co existence.
Then you have all manner of minor Xenos and while some are going to be hostile anyway there's going to be a lot who just want to live therefore will range from not friends but not enemies to perfectly happy to be allies.
So you have examples of Xenos - Human alliances that work. You have Xenos who would both want and benefit from peace if not alliances. Yet for some reason you think that all these beings will just want to fight because. Some things will like Orks but most will not.
Edit: Okay a friendlier attitude won't stop Tyranids. You know what does help? Being stronger because you aren't fighting literally everything.
I'll try my hand at disputing these.
1. Eldar have shown many times they will sacrifice billions of human lives to save them the trouble of defending themselves against orks or tyranids. This would not change if they were not at war with the Imperium. They view themselves as the most superior race in the galaxy and have no problem sacrificing other races to save their own hides.
2. If the Imperium are Nazis then Tau are Soviets. They both want to rule the galaxy, so war was unavoidable. Neither The Emperor/HLoT nor The Ethereals are willing to play second fiddle to another race. Sorry to say, Tau are not "good guys." That is not something that exists in 40K. If you really believe that the Tau would stop expanding into Imperial space and usurping Imperial worlds just because no one shot at them, you are mistaken.
1. Those are somewhat rare cases. If you go down a road of peaceful co-operation then instead of having the Eldar slaughter humans to stop corruption from Chaos spreading you get them talking to you. In addition there's the whole: Less war - More military power because it isn't being drained constantly - Better security against said Orks.
2. Okay. Hypothetically the Tau are dumb and attack the Imperium. The Imperium is not waging war on far too many battlefields and the Tau Empire are swiftly contained and/or eliminated.
1. And the Imperium is better prepared for it because they aren't fighting everything. Heck if you want to be really optimistic the Eldar might even say there's a swarm coming. Although they probably wouldn't mention why.
2. There's a difference between expansionist and attacking everything nearby.
1. So they kill billions of humans and he shouldn't hate them for it? I am failing to grasp the argument here. Also they would still be fighting Orks, Nids, and Chaos at the very least.
2.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansionism Generally it means to take all the land/space around you, usually through military means. All planet/systems that would not willingly join would be forced through warfare. Even those that did willing join the Tau would not be permitted without a fight from the larger Imperium.
1. No whats happening is "Lots of humans died but it would have been worse if the Eldar hadn't warned us". Sounds more like a reason to like them to me.
2. Does expansionism require you to give up all common sense? Because nobody sane just launches attacks against a force that's greatly superior.
1. No but you're assuming the Imperium would be acting on information it doesn't have. We would know the Eldar caused the invasion but people in universe don't.
@Orbvillion: No it isn’t pragmatism. If I encounter race A and race A seeks to destroy me that does not rationally justify that if I meet race B, a wholly unrelated race to race A, I should destroy them. If we were to use the logic you are espousing then as soon as I meet a murderer I should, pragmatically, kill everyone else I ever meet in order to ensure none of them potentially murder me.
That isn’t how pragmatism works.
Additionally, his belief isn’t ‘mostly right’ because its factually wrong. You cannot say you believe ‘every alien race would eradicate mankind if given the chance’ then encounter groups such as the Interex, Diasporex, Tentacle-what’s-their-names-from-the-Macharian-Crusade which do not want to eradicate mankind and claim you are ‘mostly right’ because you are now, demonstrably, factually wrong since you have encountered alien races which do not wish to eradicate mankind meaning the statement ‘all races would eradicate mankind in a heartbeat’ is now factually incorrect. It is wrong.
Thank goodness for myself as an Imperium player the Eldar didn’t subscribe to this inanely illogical thinking otherwise the story of the Imperium would have ended really early.
Also, honestly, since you simply reduced your argument too ‘humans can’t work with the Xenos because the Emperor wants humans alone to rule everything’ it just means we return to the much belaboured point now that the Emperor was an irrationally racially prejudiced individual.
@Thairne: What? A person being bitten by a spider and then developing arachnophobia is understandable but that doesn’t mean it’s rational. A phobia is irrational. If you see your house burn down that you might develop an irrational fear of fire is understandable but it still remains irrational. So yes you do still call someone with an irrational fear of something, even if that irrational fear emerges from a negative situation, as having a phobia. Obviously.
Additionally, again, Orks, Tyranids and Dark Eldar terrorize ALL alien races, not just humans, maybe if the Emperor spent more time working together with aliens willing to work together, such as the Diasporex, everyone could have been saved from these evil groups who do not represent all life in the galaxy at all.
Farseer Anath’lan: In both cases you mentioned a caveat must be brought up;
Fulgrim and Horus both, when suggesting negotiating with aliens, meet immediate resistance from their men who point out that ‘Standing policy is to kill aliens automatically regardless of all circumstances’.
Horus, in the case of the Interex, believes that they should attempt diplomacy now that they are stronger, in the case of the Laer Fulgrim just feels it would be demeaning to him to have to negotiate. However, later, Fulgrim is willing to negotiate with Eldar (despite his men’s protestations again) because he believes a race capable of making as ‘pretty’ things as them deserves it.
In all three cases it is made clear it is the private initiative if the Primarch against the standing orders of the Emperor.
@oldravenman3025: Actually in The Beast Arises series and the Asurmen books, the only fluff I know which deals with the actual Eldar Empire, the Eldar explain that they defeated the human nation of the time (and their Robot armies as the Shadowseer puts it) easily but didn’t exterminate them because it wasn’t what they did, beating them was good enough for the Eldar. In fact Asurmen implies Orks are pretty much the only species the Eldar at large really even knew as an Empire, no other race warranted concern from them.
Additionally, can you give one example of an alien race which was not wiped out when encountered? Both the Diasporex and Tarellians were subjected to attacks without provocations during the Great Crusade and, as said above, Marines protested whenever their Primarchs sought to engage in diplomacy with peaceful aliens as being against ‘The policy’ of the Great Crusade. Exactly which aliens did the Emperor ever spare?
Furthermore, again, wiping out all Xenos you meet because SOME Xenos have been a threat to you is not pragmatic. It’s an irrational leap from targeting Xenos who THREATEN you to targeting Xenos regardless of any other circumstances. Not to mention, again, under this logic then the Emperor should wipe out humans to prevent the atrocities and depredations we inflict on each other constantly within the Warhammer universe.
Lord Blackscale: Of course the Tau are better than the Imperium, morally speaking, that’s just obvious logic. Both organizations do horrible things, expanding their empires for example, but the Imperium does more. Just because two groups do bad things doesn’t mean automatically moral equivalence exists between them, that’s an incredibly naive understanding of moral philosophy, since by that logic I could argue ‘The Republic of South Africa is as evil as Nazi Germany’ simply because both have done bad things (ALL GOVERNMENTS/NATIONS/POLITIES DO BAD THINGS).
EDIT: To add, and clarify, all polities are evil. However they are evil to differing extents. The Tau Empire is evil, horribly so, but it is still incalculably better than the Imperium of Man, the Orks or the Tyranids.
@Angel: I missed this fact so I'll respond to it quick; you're saying that if someone has something you need you're automatically justified in killing them? I just...marvel at this. By this logic anything is justified the moment you want it. "I want that car," kill someone and take it from them, "I want your gold," kill someone and take it from them. I mean if you're advocating that the moment you want something someone else has you're justified to take it from them then why bother protesting the Long Night? The humans were probably just sitting on stuff the Xenos wanted, they've your blessing to kill them.
Honestly I'm sometimes despairing of the seemingly literal religious worship a fictional genocidal dictator receives (from real people now, not within the universe, I understand within the fictional universe why it is so and enjoy it, I just shudder at the way real people worship it). Personally I think Morden's posts about the Grandmaster and his defence sum this all up best.
"I want my species (humanity) to rule the galaxy unopposed. There are these other things in the galaxy that may or may not want to be slave-vassals to my empire. Some of these things are militarized and will oppose me. Therefore, if I am to rule the galaxy unopposed, these other things must be exterminated."
Is it moral? No... but logic exists apart from morality, and does not, indeed, can not, consider moral implications in logical decisions. Logic exists outside of emotional concerns.
As mentioned previously, other alien races had been demonstrably hostile during Mankind's spread across the stars and during the Dark Age of Technology. If one bug-eyed, blue-skinned freak with tentacles was monstrous, it is safest for all if you consider that all bug-eyed, blue-skinned freaks with tentacles are monstrous and destroy their worlds utterly as you encounter them.
Lastly? This is Warhammer 40k. It is a grim galaxy of perilous adventure. Everyone in it is some kind of fanatic, and all of its heroes perform deeds that would have made Hitler pause. All of them support some kind of monstrous ultra-conservative theocratic empire, whether that is the Imperium, the Ruinous Powers, the Tau, or anything else. For the human characters, the setting asks only what part of their humanity they will sacrifice today in order to survive and, maybe, perhaps it would not have been better to die? There are no good guys in this setting, just protagonists and antagonists.
@oldravenman3025: Actually in The Beast Arises series and the Asurmen books, the only fluff I know which deals with the actual Eldar Empire, the Eldar explain that they defeated the human nation of the time (and their Robot armies as the Shadowseer puts it) easily but didn’t exterminate them because it wasn’t what they did, beating them was good enough for the Eldar. In fact Asurmen implies Orks are pretty much the only species the Eldar at large really even knew as an Empire, no other race warranted concern from them.
Which doesn't invalidate anything I posted. It's been established that Mankind and the Eldar had their clashes. But eventually, there were non-aggression pacts between Humanity and various xenos, including the Eldar.
As for the "implied" part about the Orks, this is why I don't consider the novels to be the end-all source of lore information. Because:
1. The writers have a bad tendency not to research the background material.
2. The novels themselves tend to contradict one another, in addition to other established lore
3. The novels are told from the POV of the characters they are about, rather than hard info about the general setting.
Considering how widespread and powerful Mankind was stated to be at it's height, it supports the lore and not entirely the info in the novels you mentioned. The Eldar considered Humans to be significant enough to warrant treaties, and they were considered enlightened then, being at the height of their then-current empire and the corruption hadn't set in yet.
Additionally, can you give one example of an alien race which was not wiped out when encountered? Both the Diasporex and Tarellians were subjected to attacks without provocations during the Great Crusade and, as said above, Marines protested whenever their Primarchs sought to engage in diplomacy with peaceful aliens as being against ‘The policy’ of the Great Crusade. Exactly which aliens did the Emperor ever spare?
The Diasporex wasn't attacked without provocation. They were attacked because the Humans among their fleets refused to part ways with their xenos allies, and accept the Imperium as it's master. Not because there were aliens among them (not to say that the aliens in question wouldn't have gotten the ax when all was said and done)
You are correct about the Tarellians. They were attacked without provocation. However, the Tarellians were an advanced space faring species, and we don't know much about their background and past dealings with Humanity, beyond those few snippets. They could have very easily been a threat, and the whole story could be not so one sided if somebody decided to flesh it out. And considering some other instances of Human/xenos encounters from the Great Crusade onwards, I don't buy into that line about it being absolutely mandated "standard policy" It was more or less the call of whoever was in command of a given expedition.
The protests and opinions of Astartes means nothing. The Emperor trusted the Primarchs to make those kind of calls. If it was of the opinion of a Primarch, that it was in the Imperium's best interests, then they would negotiate. The Interex was a Human dominated civilization that accepted xenos (the Kinebrach) in their society. Rather than go full on crusade on their asses, Horus chose to open negotiations. That was his perogative as Warmaster, despite other rediscovered Human civilizations being wiped out for far lesser sins. If Erebus hadn't pulled his little stunt, the Interex would have likely became part of the Imperium, and their xenos "pets" would have been tolerated.
As for aliens that the Emperor left alone, the Eldar is a prime example. There was warfare between the two during the Great Crusade. But as long as the Eldar didn't threaten Human interests, they were largely left alone. And Horus's willingness to negotiate with the Interex, despite the supposed "official" policy of "kill all xenos and xenos-lovers" during the Great Crusade. So, my point that there were exceptions still stands.
Furthermore, again, wiping out all Xenos you meet because SOME Xenos have been a threat to you is not pragmatic. It’s an irrational leap from targeting Xenos who THREATEN you to targeting Xenos regardless of any other circumstances. Not to mention, again, under this logic then the Emperor should wipe out humans to prevent the atrocities and depredations we inflict on each other constantly within the Warhammer universe.
Considering that most of the xenos encountered were first-rate bastards themselves, I would call it "better safe than sorry". The pragmatism I mentioned in the previous post relates to the Imperium's willingness to leave xenos alone, or negotiate with them, if it suited the Imperium's interests at the time.
And that "pragmatism" still exists in the 41st Millennium. The are "sanctioned xenos". Rouge Traders and nobles are willing to hire xenos mercenaries. Inquisitors have xenos in their rentinues. The Imperium is willing to negotiate, and temporarily ally, with xenos. The Dark Angles have xenos as retainers. The only reason the Tau haven't seen more Imperium-initiated hostilities is because the Tau Empire is a useful "buffer state" against horrors on the Eastern Fringe. Xenos even visit important hive cities and engage in sanctioned trade with the Imperium. Despite the lip service paid to "Fear The Alien. Hate The Alien. Kill The Alien.", the Imperium does engage in peaceful discourse and interaction with xenos when necessary. But it has to be sanctioned and carried out by authorized parties.
@Thairne: What? A person being bitten by a spider and then developing arachnophobia is understandable but that doesn’t mean it’s rational. A phobia is irrational. If you see your house burn down that you might develop an irrational fear of fire is understandable but it still remains irrational. So yes you do still call someone with an irrational fear of something, even if that irrational fear emerges from a negative situation, as having a phobia. Obviously.
Additionally, again, Orks, Tyranids and Dark Eldar terrorize ALL alien races, not just humans, maybe if the Emperor spent more time working together with aliens willing to work together, such as the Diasporex, everyone could have been saved from these evil groups who do not represent all life in the galaxy at all.
That's why I choose fire. A fear of fire is rational. It will hurt you if you do not keep it in check. It will destroy things, that's the nature of it. That makes the fear of fire not irrational.
Comparing this to the fluff I read about Long Night - pretty much every race acted that way. There may be exceptions like the Diasporex, but they are very, very few. You make one fatal assumption - you forget the setting we are in. Applying real world morale to the 40k universe is simply not adequate. While you, correctly, reason that not everything is hostile - in 40k pretty much everything IS. That is what the setting dictates. That is the drive that makes the setting awesome. It's not a depiction of a possible real future - there is only war.
So... yes, if I meet someone with green eyes, he greets me and, while hugging, then plunges a dagger in my back - I will be careful with people with green eyes. If this happens several times, I develop a prejudice. Based on actual, factual experience.
It is a logical conclusion that the next person, just like those before him/her will act the same.
There may be someone that does not want to do that - but I'm not taking that risk and will stab him before he has a chance to do that to me.
You cannot guarantee the Diasporex would not act the same when it suits them like the other 2234 sentient races I encountered. It is unlikely, but again, not taking that risk. Just take a look at the tau.
They come to you, seemingly wanting to trade, strike bargains and alliances... and subtly subvert you into their underclass in their own empire.
Working together with aliens to kill aliens? Remember back when HE was still among his servants. Everything went gloriously well until the Heresy. Orks were curbstomped at Ullanor and did not prove a threat for over 2 millenia. There simply was noone that could oppose the Imperium - so why do you need allies and risk treachery?
In the 41st millenium you can even afford less of that. 10000 years of war with aggressive xenos species have taught you that they cannot be trusted. You do not present your back to someone you cannot trust, lest you want to get pincered and destroyed even more thoroughly.
So I'm all about exterminating the filthy xenos spawn from the galaxy.
the Emperor knew, from the fall of the eldar(and thus creation of the youngest Chaos God): obviously, other races than mankind where able to create powerful warp beings (thats how the eldar gods came into existence in the first place, during the war in heaven).
since this xenos sheer existance interferes with his plan to use the warp for his purposes, creating safe space to live in for humanity(real space would be much safer without the terrors from the warp pouring into reality) and, of course, good old power-of-gods. hes the Emperor after all.
#razing-all-churches(theres this BL book i heard about, that sounded like a good read), because ALL such uncontrolled warp potential(thoughts and dreams, prayers and hopes etc) can turn dangerous, not only by the xenos doing.
he destroys the last religion and thereby last connection to the past at the end of the unification wars.
this leaves the conclusion that the Emperor doesnt necessarily hate all Xenos, it merely is the best or only way to go to "Kill All Xenos!" because of safety reasons.
for this aim, it is also convenient to be worshipped as a god.
although he forbade any such movements in the beginning of the crusade, bringing the "voice of reason" so to speak with his conquerings(the marines who later became Chaplains, Iterators?!) to the worlds they "freed", it does not seem like he really cares about such matters today, with the ecclesiarchy running the place and all.
or it was all just pretending in order to level the playing field.
extiguishing religion in the name of "progress", just like all potential competition(the eeevil xenos).
This is what i recall from reading all those stories, watching youtube and discussing theories. some of it might be considered non-canon, or just mixed up in my memory, but i believe there is more than one interpretation to the background. and more faccets than what i remember.
and what do GW know, they made necrons into egyptians and also: wolfen.
@Orbvillion: Please feel free to clarify your meaning then, sadly misunderstandings are inevitable in all communication.
@Psiensis: No it isn’t logical. Your thought process has no logical grounding for its initial presumption;
‘What is your LOGICAL demand to rule the galaxy unopposed? What is your RATIONAL justification for your RIGHT to rule the galaxy unopposed?’ these are unfounded assumptions you are working from to create a logical framework without first creating the logical basis on which your rational goals will be pursued.
Honestly no doubt the Imperium kills anyone who reads Hume, Kant, Aristotle, Plato, Nietzsche, Hegel, Mills because otherwise they’d see the simple tenements humans, here, figured out HUNDREDS of years ago which make any moral or rational justification of the Imperium laughable. It’s like trying to argue that Games Workshop is somehow more competent then generations of renowned philosophers.
Also logic does not necessarily exist apart from morality, that’s hotly debated topic, and fields such as Free Thinking, Secularism to name but two assert instead that logic gives us morality and that thus the existence of a Divine is not necessary for morality. So no, your blanket statement is not valid at all, it’s a groundless assertion which is debated frequently in current academia.
Again, also, if you encounter ONE hostile alien race it does not automatically become safest to destroy any you meet, seriously I can’t imagine I have to explain this.
This is how what you just sketched would run if we took a rationalist look at it;
“I have encountered alien race A and they were hostile. I now presume that it is safest for me to assume all alien races are hostile and destroy them on site…”
“But wait…numerous things could go wrong with this…I might now attack a race which would not have previously attacked me but, because of my new presumption, I attack them and they destroy me. I might now attack a race which previously would have shared important information with me but, because I attacked them without provocation, they do not share such information with me and I die at a later date as a result of lacking this information”
That’s how a rational thought experiment on this would run, since we must rationally accept we do not have any degree of omniscient knowledge. Besides you do realize that no Philosophy argues we should take the absolute ‘Safest’ route since if we do we should do nothing. It’s a very outdated argument to say we should do what is ‘safest’.
Again, also, if we use the argument that if we encounter ONE hostile race we should annihilate all races then we should kill ourselves. If humans worked on the logic your espousing, in real life, we’d all be dead because the moment our forebears met a hostile nation they’d instantly have to go ‘Welp, guess we gotta kill any nation we meet on sight from now on’. Leads us to the classical murderer problem as well since, now, once I have met one murderer I must, to be safe, kill everyone I ever meet on sight lest they murder me potentially.
Also Warhammer 40k is not what YOU want it to be. It is a setting open to numerous different styles. No I don’t believe everyone is a fanatic since the diversity offered by the game is one of its best points to me. One can play combat-loving ever-happy Orks, one can play hyper-advanced predator Tyranid, one can play combination-of-all-mankinds-worst-traits Imperium, one can play manipulative arrogant Eldar, one can play hyper-consequentialist and authoritarian Tau and on and on and on.
Again you also create false moral equivalence. Just because all nations follow bad precepts and do bad things, which they all do, that does not make them equally bad. That’s a ridiculous assertion.
@oldravenman3025: it does invalidate what you say since it means the Eldar Empire had the capacity to annihilate mankind but didn’t.
Also if we begin selectively doubting fluff then this all falls apart since I’ll just say I’m ‘skeptical’ about so-and-so fluff when you say you’re ‘skeptical’ about this-and-this fluff. If that is the route you wish to take then there’s no reason even discussing it since any discussion can just be ended with ‘yeah but I don’t believe that fluff’ and ‘yeah well I don’t believe that fluff’.
…ON what rational ground is refusing to submit to a foreign power grounds for attack? How is that a provocation? So when a country comes and says; “I’m conquering you, accept it” and you say no, you’re arguing that the conquering country is now justified in its actions? Thank goodness virtually no-one in history has shared this view. Utterly terrifying.
Also the protests of the Astartes don’t ‘mean nothing’ (again you just argue that fluff you don’t like doesn’t matter). They literally say it’s against the policy of the Great Crusade to engage with Aliens. That’s it, point-blank stated, it’s a fact. Sorry.
Also just because a Primarch does something doesn’t mean he has tacit approval to do so from the Emperor. That’s ridiculous, Lorgar, Magnus and Angron all three did things which they were censored for. A Primarch doing something doesn’t mean the Emperor agrees with it at all, that’s not a rational argument.
The Emperor didn’t leave the Eldar alone…Horus destroyed a Craftworld and many more clashes. You seem to be mistaking ‘left alone’ for ‘the Eldar mostly avoided them’.
You still haven’t shown me a single alien race encountered where the Emperor, not a Primarch on their own initiative, spares them.
I recall the latest rulebook mentioning that working with alien mercenaries allows only because the Imperium’s control isn’t centralised. The Inquisition book on Ordo Xenos mentions that working with aliens only extends till they can be safely eliminated. The Dark Angels are a good point, a really good point, I’m waiting for someone to address this in the fluff.
Also the Imperium only engages in subversive activities in order to later eliminate aliens. I can’t send people saying ‘we’ll be friends’ to my neighbours and them have them under secret orders to kill my neighbours as soon as possible and then claim ‘I’m friendly’ or ‘sparing’ my neighbours, it just means I have a long term plan to wipe them out with no justification.
@Thairne: A FEAR of fire is rational, a PHOBIA of fire is irrational. Also you do realize a spider can hurt you right?
Back to the main point; developing an irrational fear of something remains, obviously, irrational. I can’t say much more on this since it’s become a tautology. A phobia is irrational; why do you think we seek to treat phobia’s?
Can you name me these ‘every race’ which acted that way? I’d be genuinely curious. So we exclude Orks and Dark Eldar automatically, after all they terrorize all races in the galaxy.
Actually your metaphor is wrong. Going by Imperium logic I shouldn’t just distrust someone with green eyes I should from now on actively kill someone with green eyes on sight…returning to the problem that by the justification your espousing the Imperium should kill itself to prevent more Goge Vandire’s, Horus’ and such since humans have constantly killed humans within the setting.
Also instead of stabbing people on sight, and wasting energy and resources and potentially depriving yourself of benefit (the real world logical reasons why we don’t follow such a stupid belief) you could rather remain cautious without having to expend your energy and resources in unnecessary actions…like rational polities. Then not only do you remain protective of yourself but you also, at least, reap the potential benefits of alliances and transfers of knowledge and information.
I wouldn’t call everything going ‘Gloriously Well’ during the Horus Heresy at all. I’d hate for myself, my family or friends to live during that time since we’d all have been killed or worse. Definitely don’t agree. Only place I’d be comfortable to live as a human in the setting would be the Farsight Enclaves, Tau Empire if I had too. But definitely Farsight Enclaves would be my personal pick. So no don’t agree with you on that at all.
Also, again *sigh* if you don’t present your back to someone you can’t trust then I suppose you walk outside by crawling around on your back to prevent strangers, whom you of course rationally cannot be sure can be trusted, aren’t facing your back? Do you see how ridiculous this is?
@FreshMeat: Wait…I thought the Emperor’s plan was to bypass the Warp and use the Webway…if he plans to calm the Warp why use the Webway? Huh?
Additionally, mankind is generally blamed for why the Chaos Gods are as strong as they are…so mankind is then the biggest impediment to his plan so…again…he’s going to have to wipe out mankind by this logic.
I do agree with you, wholeheartedly, that the nature of the fluff is inconsistent, for sure, it’s an irritation with GW’s work in general. Also don’t worry about the non-canon of some of the work, no doubt some of what I say someone might consider to be from a ‘non-canon’ book and such. I try, as much as possible, to accept all not-explicitly retconned fluff but that does leave me with the problem of enormous amounts of contradictory information.
That being said if, as I think you’re asserting, the Emperor simply hates aliens because they are ‘potential competition’ then that’s fine. Although I prefer Morden’s comic’s way of putting it the wording your using is perfectly acceptable. The Emperor’s hate is unjustifiable and irrational, but that the logic behind it is what you’re espousing makes sense to me. Thank goodness, again, on Earth no one is stupid enough to think we should wipe out all ‘potential competition’ since then we’d all be killing ourselves forever. Wait…
Yet again, you bring real life logic into this. This is not real life. Its a made up universe where other laws apply. You need to accept that. Real world philosophy has no ground in a setting that is so unreally supressive that it boogles the mind.
Why does the Imperium and the EMperor exterminate all xenos?
Because the backstabbed him. Because they are a thread. Because THEY, being aliens, do NOT follow human morale. They are predators. You can keep a lion as a pet and it will like you, but one day, it might very well attack you and chew your face off.
Human logic and morale does not apply to things that are not human.
And this happend.
Thats the reason. Its not irrational when it HAPPENED.
For obvious reasons I cannot tell you of any races that were not explored in the fluff. But there is no current alien race in the fluff that is not hostile towards mankind.
Quoted from the 40k Wiki:
"When the Age of Strife began with the collapse of the first human interstellar federation, many suddenly isolated human colonies were set upon by all manner of hostile aliens, though a few notable exceptions of peaceful coexistence occurred as well. The scattered outposts of Mankind would be preyed upon for millennia by various xenos species, pushing the human race towards eventual extinction until the Emperor of Mankind revealed his existence and began his galaxy-spanning Great Crusade to reunite humanity under a single interstellar government. The Emperor believed that only in unity -- unity bought at nearly any price -- could Mankind survive a galaxy that was far more dangerous than any human savants of an earlier age would have believed. "
All manner of hostile aliens. Very few exceptions.
That is the basis for the xenophobia.
You simply refuse to take the point. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, exterminate you!
I repeat. It happened. It is not irrational. In the laws of the 40k setting, this is a logical conclusion. It was proofen that the vast majority are not trustworthy in the Age of Strife. Not a singular, erroneous xenos species. Nearly all of them.
Honestly, if you start arguing with the real life philosophies... Yes. Great thinkers of OUR world and OUR time. 40k is not our world and our time. That morale does not apply there.
Go ask jews if they trusted Germans after the holocaust. I bet, that even if you had NOTHING to do with that, they would mistrust you. Aztek/Mayas with the Conquistadores? Native Americans and the US Cavalry? Indians and English?
@Thairne: Firstly; of course we use real life logic when discussing this we, by definition, cannot use any form of logic or rationality save that one which we possess (the real-life one). So it makes no sense to ask me to 'suspend my real life logic or rationality' since then we have no capacity for any form of coherent and understandable conversation.
The Imperium and the Emperor seek to exterminate all Xenos for a very simple two-fold reason;
1) They've irrationally determined that they should rule the galaxy absolutely.
2) They've irrationally determined that since hostile alien races exist all alien races should be destroyed.
Simply and, as shown, irrational at every step. But it is what they believe in the setting, something I'm fine with and enjoy, but it doesn't make their beliefs right or justifiable. In fact, patently, their very starting stone (we have a right to rule the galaxy absolutely) has absolutely no rational justification at all. From the outset they have no justification for their actions. Which is fine, its realistic, but that doesn't make it right.
An important thing to stress here is that I'm fine with the Imperium being this way, its what makes them part of the setting, but one shouldn't delude oneself into thinking they're 'right' or 'good'. I play Imperium, but I know my Sisters are all close-minded, xenophobic and horrible people.
Then onto the point of being 'backstabbed'; humans have backstabbed humans, if being backstabbed is grounds to wipe out all members of a certain class then humans must wipe out all humans. Done.
Also aliens are not inherently anymore different to us than anything else. Since Kant, Nagel and many others we've long ago accepted that there is no rational way to even prove relation of mind between two humans. Its impossible. Its actually, if you have an interest in philosophy, really quite cool (at least I think so) but there's a legitimate thought experiment concerning the fact that you might encounter an alien more similar to you then a human.
Besides killing something because you think it is 'different' to you in thinking, morals and attitude it literally the motivation for prejudice against transsexuals and a huge class of all prejudices either. Something being different doesn't mean you should be prejudiced against it.
Calling all aliens predators is also silly since we have the Diasporex, the Greet, the Tentacle-Things from the Macharian Crusade and such who aren't predators at all. Honestly mankind, Orks and Tyranids are probably the primary predators of the Galaxy. And the Chaos Gods.
Something 'happening' doesn't make any extrapolation from it 'rational'.
'Murders' happen but they don't create the rational tenement that you should kill anyone you meet to prevent them from potentially murdering you. There is no necessary correlation here at all.
There are alien races not hostile to the Imperium;
The tentacle creatures in the Macharian Crusade have never instigated any hostilities against the Imperium despite the Imperium's attack.
There's a race who's been described as fighting a purely defensive conflict against mankind for over 500 years and preventing them from taking their homeworld.
Theirs an alien race which cooperated to fight the Tyranid with mankind and never attacked them and mankind wiped them out.
So, firstly, your statement is false and, secondly, your statement is circular;
Of course most aliens are hostile to the Imperium since the Imperium practices a policy of xenophobia. If the Imperium didn't practise said policy said races would not be hostile.
As for your quote, fantastic, you know who's suffered genocide but hasn't resolved to kill everyone they ever meet in case?
Like...so many people on earth. Imagine if Jews, Native Americans, Celts, Indians, Cimmerians, Sumi and literally thousands of different ethnic groups throughout the world embraced the philosophy you're espousing as 'justifiable' we would literally all be dead.
Which seems to be the end point of each justification being offered her for the Imperium; all humans dead.
Actually this just boggles me...you literally included the Jews, Mayas and Native Americans...groups who have never become genocidal against another group. I mean...you do know the Imperium doesn't just 'mistrust' Xenos right?
Wait...are you trying to tell me that how Jews treat Germans, or how Amerindians treat the Spanish is comparable to how the Imperium treats Xenos? You can't be since that makes no sense at all.
Besides Jews certainly trusted many Germans, still do today, even after World War II (since humans aren't on average so stupid to think of things that collectively) and Jews still live and get along with Germans to this day. Same true of all those other examples. Besides the Jews never began a process of killing Germans on site (or to be fair, using the Imperium example, killing humans on sight because Germans are part of the group human).
honestly that last little bit...feels like you're disproving your own points.
Then lets agree to disagree.
I gave you the reasons for why he acted like he did.
You dispute the reasons and fail to acknowledge the facts that the lore and setting present us.
Noone of us will be swayed since we come from 2 fundamentally different perspectives. I still stand by that when disussing a fantasy person in a fantasy setting with fantasy parameters using real life logic and morale does not apply.
I'll 'agree to disagree' with you, sure, that's cool but I won't agree that I 'fail to acknowledge the facts that the lore and setting present' since I don't see where your substantiating that pretty sweeping and generalized claim.
Out of interest, since you say when discussing fantasy we can't use real life logic and morality, how exactly do we discuss it then seeing as, by definition, we cannot use any other logic and morality system? We don't have access to multiple different morality and rational systems, that's a core tenement to most modern philosophy, so...what exactly are you saying we should apply then?
I mean...the people who create this setting are humans, said setting is created using their minds, minds which form part of the rationality and morality we possess here in the real word. Something created by us cannot 'escape' out morality or rationality. Otherwise you're arguing that somehow the employees of GW can think in a system and pattern which no living human being can (separate from our own rationality and morality).
That's just pretty basic Hume.
But if you don't want to go on with it that's cool, this is still all pretty trivial after all. Cheers.
logic does apply, has to be applied in all fiction(to a certain degree)
if it doesnt, you get bad movies, videogames, books and might as well hit yourself in the head with a hammer and call it a night.
could be that he is/was just a douchebag.
all this "all xenos are evil" talk appears to be possible to be, from what we know, imperial propaganda(GW points that out sometimes).
are there aliens that are hostile/"evil" from the imperiums perspective?
you bet there are, it is obvious, really.
be it the ever present ork-threat(they are made for war after all) or powerful, highly advanced empires like the tau+eldar+necrons
(yes, Tyranids are VERY unpleasant too) with their own agendas.
then there is the IoM itself with their self-declared divine right to conquer+colonize everything. they are just like them in a way(only that they are "we". Its called pyskoldgee).
this behaviour alone could be enough to fight the imperium, from a "good" Xenos, even a "good" human(HERESY!!TRAITOR!!seize him!!)
perspective(makeing them an opposing force to the imperium).
also we cannot breed with them and they might want what we want,so....
(irl):
this is by the way what real empires have been like throughout human history(with quite a staggering amount of examples): expand, conquer, advance.
if they dont willingly join us or become our slaves, we burn their homes, salt their fields,
slay their cattle and rape their daughters and wives(sorry ladys, its true), because it is OUR DIVINE RIGHT to rule (and do whatever the feth we want!!).
i can see some similaritys there.
back to the emperor:
iirc, and if my education does not fail me, in ancient Greece the scolars had two(at least) meanings for "ruler": one translates as "King", the other as "Tyrant".
they learned, by means of physical evidence, that there is VERY rarely a person so noble, so selfless and by the gods truly "good" in their intentions
and actions to justify calling them "King".
maybe it is the nature of power: it corrupts, makes you lose perspective.
the emperor is different(or is he?!): true to mankind, our champion and father. an avatar.
he can predict the future and knows what is best.
or so we are made to believe. we do not know his true intentions for sure.
but at the same time he is "evil", a hard cruel murderer of children, should the need arise. they dont hesitate to murder entire planets,
even many systems, at once without any second thoughts *because its rationally the best course of action*, as we all know. (this is also pyskoldgee, duality, light and dark, you know...)
he is superhuman. and an antagoist to the warp. to get rid of
the warp he needs the stuff of anti-chaos.
and what too much, rigidly enforced order does, is it turns you and your empire into a space-nazi.
it is arguably the best way to enforce whatever aim you seek to fulfill, speaking from a economical and cultural perspective.
not very nice, but thats another topic.
and enslaving the xenos doesnt make any sense in this constellation either, because they need to be removed from existence.
Anemone wrote:
"Wait…I thought the Emperor’s plan was to bypass the Warp and use the Webway…if he plans to calm the Warp why use the Webway? Huh?"
the warp and its implication of"everything is possible" is so big a threat to existence in itself, it has to be contained: bring order where there was chaos or be devoured.
if it had been so easy to just grab the webway, there had been no great crusade. to kill off all those ancient mighty beings that might even claim the webway for themselves
(eldar for one or the doings of ctan and their slaves) and the just plain bare threat from the kinds of orks and tyranids...
well it makes sense, because if you dont, they win. game over. no one left to make use of the webway.
or, emperor protect, those other forces use the webway for their own needs, dooming mankind in the process.
the webway is strategically of the highest value.
Anemone wrote:
"Additionally, mankind is generally blamed for why the Chaos Gods are as strong as they are…so mankind is then the biggest impediment to his plan so…again…he’s going to have to wipe out mankind by this logic."
maybe he will some day, but lets not forget:
either he knew of chaos all along and did nothing to prevent his primarch-sons-clones from being corrupted.(i think not)
or he learned of it as soon(or rather"late") as they met the interex(or some similar event, whatever).
if the second is true, and he did not know of it, he would have wanted some for himself if just to learn more about and at the least counter whatever this Chaos-threat is.
no need to burn down the house, just because it has some broken windows and the faccade needs a paintjob.
also, by force, thought manipulation, youname it, he can control the not corrupted humans and form them into a weapon to use.
ultimately, once the other sentient lifeforms are extinct and the warp is calmed, a universe full of human psykers will make him the biggest and best UltraCyberMegaNob of all times.
then he can go look for where the tyranids came from or play on his pc and eat pizza, like normal people.
nomotog wrote: The IoM was never meant to be justified in i's evil.
true. if you are in a culture where x is y, then x is y.
but the justification has to be somewhere there, right? because it has to be...
only that it doesnt.
its a grimdark thing. and if gw told the whole story(if there is any at all) the myth will die and so will the game.
at least for me it would.
1) They've irrationally determined that they should rule the galaxy absolutely.
2) They've irrationally determined that since hostile alien races exist all alien races should be destroyed.
It is not irrational to believe that Xenos are inferior to Mankind. This is quite obvious simply by looking at the Xenos.
The Orks look weird and are Orks. Nothing further needs be said on the topic.
The Eldar look weird and live too long compared to humans. The Eldar also destroyed themselves and rendered a vast section of the galaxy virtually uninhabitable because they fethed too stronk. Obviously worthy of extermination.
The Tau look weird and have short life-spans compared to humans. They also, in defiance of natural laws (another thing Xenos are known for), somehow developed a hunter/warrior caste despite having evolved from a plains-dwelling herbivore. Rationally, such things what upend the natural order of things cannot be permitted to continue, lest they upend the natural order of Mankind, causing riots, looting, fire and brimstone, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria...
All of the above are hostile. We haven't even mentioned the Barghesi, who are noted for being "hyper-violent".
Anemone wrote: I'll 'agree to disagree' with you, sure, that's cool but I won't agree that I 'fail to acknowledge the facts that the lore and setting present' since I don't see where your substantiating that pretty sweeping and generalized claim.
Out of interest, since you say when discussing fantasy we can't use real life logic and morality, how exactly do we discuss it then seeing as, by definition, we cannot use any other logic and morality system? We don't have access to multiple different morality and rational systems, that's a core tenement to most modern philosophy, so...what exactly are you saying we should apply then?
I mean...the people who create this setting are humans, said setting is created using their minds, minds which form part of the rationality and morality we possess here in the real word. Something created by us cannot 'escape' out morality or rationality. Otherwise you're arguing that somehow the employees of GW can think in a system and pattern which no living human being can (separate from our own rationality and morality).
That's just pretty basic Hume.
But if you don't want to go on with it that's cool, this is still all pretty trivial after all. Cheers.
The basic parameter we differ in is that xenos are, by nature, hostile.
You use the "real world" logic of common sense and an open mind which is great! You assume that xenos can, for the vast majority, be bargained with, act reasonable and follow human standards. This is where we disagree and makes our view so fundamentally different.
In 40k, Xenos do not do that.
As quoted by the 40k wiki, as soon as they saw an opportunity, they turned hostile. Nearly all of them. Therefore, I work on the premise that all xenos are inherently and by nature hostile, as the setting tells us via the Age of Strife. This is what you, so far, did not take into account.
This is the point all our argument basically floats about and why I cannot accept your view of things as the correct one in this case.
This is basically what I mean when I say that one cannot apply real life philosophies - because the basic principle in which these are built does not exist. Of course I do not dispute that, even in 40k, 1+1 equals 2 or cooperation would benefit both sides. What I dispute that this is POSSIBLE in the 40k setting.
If you use real world standards, you of course are absolutely right.
You cannot do that in 40k. The premise of the entire background is - there is only war. There is no peace, neither will there ever be. Peaceful coexistance simply does not exist on a meaningful scale by design. They created a world where everyone secretly or openly wants to kill you, take your stuff, chase you before them and hear the lamentation of your women.
So - the logical conclusion, if peace is not possible and you KNOW you will be attacked when you show a sign of weakness is to kill the other guy before he without a doubt (again, this is the main point) will attack you first. Irrational by real life standards. Logical by 40k standards.
40k fluff is a reflection and a caricature of our society and our history. i can imagine there is a more comprehensive word for this kind of thing, but i do not know it. dystopic parody maybe?
also: sci-fi.
So you want the Imperium and Xenos filth to live in peace? What's next? Men marrying turtles? Where do you draw the line? Won't some one please thing of the children?
Lord Blackscale wrote: So you want the Imperium and Xenos filth to live in peace? What's next? Men marrying turtles? Where do you draw the line? Won't some one please thing of the children?
@nomotog: THANK YOU! This is how I feel constantly. I play Imperium but I don't think I'm playing 'good guys' or 'reasonable guys' or 'moral guys' or 'justifiable guys'. I accept that in the game I play xenophobic child-murdering monsters with no relation to real humans at all. I've never understood the attempt to argue that the Imperium is 'good' or 'justified' it seems to miss the entire point of the setting to me. It also just seemed immature to me, that people so obsessed with maturity needed to feel convinced they were playing a morally justified faction in a game. Never got it.
Personally this is my fall back, the Imperium's evil, like Orks, Nids, Chaos and others and there's no justification for it because there doesn't have to be. They are what they are in the game.
@Psiensis: Well, I mean, you're obviously trolling since literally nothing you said there was rational at all.
Natural means what occurs, if Orks occur as X then that is natural. By definition. Natural is all that occurs.
Besides I don't even want to go into the incredibly unfortunate consequences of the irrational argument you've poorly sketched out here since I'm quite certain at this point you're just stringing together contrarian sentiments since you have no capability to advance logical or rational argumentation in support of your unjustifiable position.
Anyway now that I understand you have no rational argument at all and are simply trolling I'll just stick to focusing on the rational arguments. Cheers.
@Thairne: Xenos are not, by nature, hostile. This statement could only be rationally true if every single Xenos ever encountered was by nature hostile but since we have existing examples of non-hostile Xenos; Diasporex, Interex, Tarellians, Tentacle-what's-their-faces and such the statement is untrue.
Sorry but if the very first parameter of your argument is an outright falsehood then it is not a very strong argument. Till you can prove that all Xenos ever encountered are hostile you cannot make a blanket statement that all Xenos ever encountered are hostile, it's an illogical inconsistency.
As for the rest of the argument...honestly you're just repeating that 'all aliens want to kill all humans' which, again, simply isn't true in the fluff. Until it is in true in the fluff that all aliens want to kill all humans you cannot make this claim. It's simply an outright falsehood. Sorry.
@Lord Blackscale: Why prevent someone from marrying a turtle if they want to? What's the reason for it? What's next, stop people marrying people of the same gender? Having a different belief to you? Having a different language to you? If they do not threaten you, harm you and attack you why pointlessly make conflict with them? I get that you mean it as a joke but, honestly, why not? Just my two cents on the matter *shrugs*
And I do think of the children; the Tarellian, Human, Tau and Diasporex children are all lamentable casualties of an inhumane and monstrous regime.
It's only irrational if you are a Xenophile, which is overtly and obviously Hereticus Maximus and, thusly, irrational. The words of the Xenophile can be justly ignored as:
@oldravenman3025: it does invalidate what you say since it means the Eldar Empire had the capacity to annihilate mankind but didn’t.
It "invalidates" nothing of what I said. If anything, it proves my point. The fact that the Eldar didn't attempt to wipe out Humanity supports canon fluff that Mankind had non-aggression pacts with the Eldar, along with other xenos species, after a period of clashes. And Mankind was powerful enough, at it's height, that xenos threats were considered inconsequential. Losing one battle or war means nothing in the grand scheme of the setting. We don't know when the battle you mentioned took place. It very easily could have taken place in the early Age of Technology. The fact of the matter is that that information from the novel doesn't contradict established lore. It supports it by expanding upon it a bit.
Also if we begin selectively doubting fluff then this all falls apart since I’ll just say I’m ‘skeptical’ about so-and-so fluff when you say you’re ‘skeptical’ about this-and-this fluff. If that is the route you wish to take then there’s no reason even discussing it since any discussion can just be ended with ‘yeah but I don’t believe that fluff’ and ‘yeah well I don’t believe that fluff’.
As for selectively doubting fluff, you must not be heavily into 40k, or been around for a significant period of time. Games Workshop has a long history of vague fluff, one-offs, and contradictory canon in the game's backstory. It's even worse when you throw the Black Library and Forge World's IA books into the mix. The size of Titans depends on the authors and source material. Dates get mixed up with some critical events and periods in 40k's fictional history. There is information that is from one-off sources that people are not aware of, but have never actually been retconned. The personality and background of Chapters/IG Units get screwed by one bad writer (or multiple writers contradicting one another). The Black Library is considered canon material, even if it's not necessarily "true" in the setting, which confuses things even more. All you have to do is look at the collective works of Matt Ward or one Mr. Cassern Sebastian Goto to see this (the two most glaring examples). So, no. It's not cherry picking or being selective. It's a case of picking the best sources and sticking with them.
…ON what rational ground is refusing to submit to a foreign power grounds for attack? How is that a provocation? So when a country comes and says; “I’m conquering you, accept it” and you say no, you’re arguing that the conquering country is now justified in its actions? Thank goodness virtually no-one in history has shared this view. Utterly terrifying.
Now you're being ridiculous and descending into hysterics. Warhammer 40,000 is a fantasy/science fiction hybrid setting, where modern day ethics and morals don't always get adhered to. It's a setting of war, intrigue, the fear of the unknown, and horrors that threaten everybody with extinction. You're the one trying to interject real-world geopolitics and philosophy into this. And I don't appreciate you accusing me of being in favor of blatant adventurism, or genocide if they don't submit. You can take that assertion and shove it, because I made no excuses for what was done in the fluff in question. I just stated the reasons why the Diasporex was wiped out. Nothing more, nothing less.
Also the protests of the Astartes don’t ‘mean nothing’ (again you just argue that fluff you don’t like doesn’t matter). They literally say it’s against the policy of the Great Crusade to engage with Aliens. That’s it, point-blank stated, it’s a fact. Sorry.
There's no "sorry" about it, bub. The Primarchs, not the grunt Space Marines or Imperial Army troopers, called the shots. And the Emperor trusted them to do so in the Imperium's best iinterests, whatever the written "policy" was. End of story.
The ultimate point is that the policies regarding xenos was, and still is in the 41st Millennium, flexible. The Imperium of Man isn't all about killing everything not Human, all of the damned time (unless it's Chaos). Sometimes, exceptions could be (and were) made.
Also just because a Primarch does something doesn’t mean he has tacit approval to do so from the Emperor. That’s ridiculous, Lorgar, Magnus and Angron all three did things which they were censored for. A Primarch doing something doesn’t mean the Emperor agrees with it at all, that’s not a rational argument.
It's absolutely rational and far from ridiculous. If the Emperor put the Primarchs in charge of their respective Expeditionary Fleets, and appointed a Warmaster to run things in his stead, then yes. The trust put into his field commanders to make decisions and adapt to changing situations is a form of tacit approval. He might not agree with the Primarch's call later on down the road, and he could reverse it. But the Emperor showed no indication in the fluff of being a military "micro-manager" or absolute stickler for details.
As for the Primarchs mentioned, it's not relevant to the discussion. Those three screwed up in a big way. On the other hand, Horus negotiating with the Interex was nowhere near as bad, and was within his authority as Warmaster.
The Emperor didn’t leave the Eldar alone…Horus destroyed a Craftworld and many more clashes. You seem to be mistaking ‘left alone’ for ‘the Eldar mostly avoided them’.
It's in the established 40k lore of that period, and hasn't been retconned to my knowledge. Plus, I'm already familiar with the Eldar/Imperial interactions of that time (no confusion on my end, bub). Because of their technological superiority and insular ways, they were LARGELY left alone, as long as they didn't threaten the interests of the Imperium. But once again, it goes back to the Primarchs and their authority. Both Horus and the Leman Russ's Space Wolves wiped out a Craftworld each. But they did so despite supposed "policy" to avoid the Eldar unless they interfered. Fait Accompli.
You still haven’t shown me a single alien race encountered where the Emperor, not a Primarch on their own initiative, spares them.
I did. The Eldar. But you see how that went. And I doubt it was to be a permanent stay of execution.
And the Primarchs carried the authority of the Emperor of Mankind in their respective commands (unless the Emperor himself was around, leading the campaign, and no direct orders from him were received pertaining to a specific instance). So, their judgements and decisions were just as valid as if the Emperor himself gave them. This was especially true when he appointed Horus as Warmaster before he turned his attention to the Webway Project.
I recall the latest rulebook mentioning that working with alien mercenaries allows only because the Imperium’s control isn’t centralised. The Inquisition book on Ordo Xenos mentions that working with aliens only extends till they can be safely eliminated. The Dark Angels are a good point, a really good point, I’m waiting for someone to address this in the fluff.
The Imperium of the 41st Millennium is indeed a feudal society, where the Senatorum and Administratum cannot possibly micromanage/control everything. And they know this. That's why a blind eye is often turned/sanction given when anybody of any significance consorts with xenos, as long as it's to the benefit of the Imperium of Man. As for the Ordo Xenos, that much is true. But not every Inquisitor follows that little guideline, and not everyone that ignores it is dinged for doing so. Some, like Helena Jericho, has a bond of trust and mutual respect with the Kroot merc in her retinue. There are members of the Ordo Xenos that are on good terms with the Eldar of certain Craftworlds. The Palatine on Necromunda has an area set aside for xenos who visit to trade. So, it all depends on who's involved and who has the pull to get an individual alien sanctioned.
Also the Imperium only engages in subversive activities in order to later eliminate aliens. I can’t send people saying ‘we’ll be friends’ to my neighbours and them have them under secret orders to kill my neighbours as soon as possible and then claim ‘I’m friendly’ or ‘sparing’ my neighbours, it just means I have a long term plan to wipe them out with no justification.
The Imperium pays lip service to "kill all xenos". But as I pointed out before in an earlier post, the truth is that "realpolitik" rules the day. If aliens are too useful (for whatever reason) then they have an indefinite stay of execution (like the Tau, who don't see this and are pushing their luck). Or are too much trouble to put the effort into destroying them all (the Eldar, who are barely tolerated). That's not to say they don't fight it out from time to time, which they absolutely do. But when compared to the Orks, Tyranids, and the Necrons, they are pretty far down the threat and "xenocide is preferable" scales.
So, yeah. The continued existence of some xenos is tolerated because of the "reality" of the times. Sure, the Imperium would LIKE to wipe them out. But they know that this is folly. So, such is mostly fodder for propaganda to keep the plebs in fear of the unknown.
@anemone
You keep ignoring the setting. 5 out of 5000 does not make it the rule, it makes it the exception.
It is true in the fluff for 99% of xenos. You keep harping on the 1% that do not.
Anyway, as I said, we differ, we cannot agree.
I think your argument is completely false, you think mine is. You cannot even accept that my view may be correct and insist of me being totally wrong. Not a base for discussion.
We're done here.
@oldravenman3025: Said conflict is described as being 'at the height of mankind's power' so that clearly doesn't mean the 'beginning of the age of technology' not to mention the Eldar Empire is reoccurring described as having been the largest, greatest and most advanced Empire within all of the galaxy at the time.
Also it is not a matter of picking the 'best' fluff since the matter of 'best' is subjective. As I've said I prefer to use as much fluff as possible, bad or otherwise, even though of course that leads to contradictions, I in fact have an earlier post on this very thread where I discuss that GW's fluff contains rampant contradictions. But I do not simply pick the fluff I consider 'best' because that will obviously bias towards my preference very strongly. Instead I try, where possible, to reconcile as much existing fluff as possible.
Also there is nowhere, I remember, a stated policy of avoiding Eldar. When Fulgrim plans to negotiate with the Eldar the men under his command protest that this is against regulations and policy and that they should attack them instantly. Fulgrim must overrule them, overrule the legislation of the Imperium, to negotiate with them. I do not remember any occasion where the Emperor says all Primarchs have Carte Blanche to make any decision or interpretation of law that they desire, instead I remember, as pointed out already, numerous occasions which show that the Emperor did believe that Primarchs could 'break the law' as it were and would censor them for that. As a result of this we know that the Emperor believed their were regulations and laws superior to the fiat of a Primarch.
Also, seriously, my question remains; where is an alien race the Emperor does not condemn to destruction upon encountering it? Since we're discussing the Emperor's xenophobia here, and I don't see anything in your evidence which counters it, please point out a single race which the Emperor encounters and does not state should be annihilated?
On a curious side note, with Helena, I must say I wonder how her Kroot companion feels about the fact that the Imperium will, when it has the time, drive his species to extinction? Would Helena object to this? Argue that the Kroot shouldn't be driven to extinction? Interesting.
But not valid. I think one area we've missed here is we're discussing the Emperor's xenophobia specifically.
Additionally I totally disagree with your assertions concerning Primarchs or the Great Crusade because it doesn't change the blatantly stated fact by the characters within the book that the POLICY of the Great Crusade is to wipe out all xenos if possible. As long as that is the Great Crusade's official policy on Xenos the flexibility of how they wipe them out doesn't matter, it remains their goal.
To be honest I'm not exactly sure what you're assertion is, that the Xenos have not all been destroyed? Because that isn't what I'm discussing. My discussion revolves purely around the irrational formation of the policy 'kill all xenos' and the Emperor's irrational justification of it. Sure the Imperium doesn't get it right all the time, largely because pragmatism at times stays their hands, but none of this changes the fact that the goal of the Emperor (which is what is being discussed here) is the elimination of all xenos (and unwanted human phenotypes) if possible. I don't see anything being advanced by you that disputes that at all?
At the end I'm a little confused since I think some of what you say has no bearing on the Emperor's Xenophobia at all. As far as I can tell you're argument is 'The Imperium (at times) allows pragmatism to stays its xenocide, but at the same time would xenocide everyone if possible' if that's the assertion you're making I've got no problem with it, I'd totally agree with it...but I was never arguing that point.
The point simply is that the Emperor has an irrational xenophobia which is not rationally justifiable.
@Thairne: I think you're argument's incorrect because it doesn't have a rational base. One cannot rationally say;
'all aliens seek to destroy humans' if only 'most' do. Then you must amend your statement to being;
'most aliens seek to destroy humans' and once that amendment has been made one can no longer rationally move onto to a conclusion of 'we must pragmatically destroy all aliens' you can only move onto a conclusion of 'we must pragmatically destroy most aliens'. It's simple.
But yeah, like I said when you first brought it up, there's no need to continue, cheers.
The Imperium teaches that all "xenos" want to kill humans, for the same reason the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer teaches that Orks are easy to beat in a fistfight.
It's a useful lie that helps maintain a godawful status quo, in the most terrible regime in human history.
There are good things worth saving inside the Imperium, but they all exist in spite of Imperial bureaucracy and military, not because of it. Humans are their own worst enemies, and most numerous victims. If the whole of the Imperial military were dismantled tomorrow, and every Astartes took up basket-weaving, humanity as a whole would be immeasurably better off.
... except for the fact that Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos exist. Which, it's convenient that they do, because if they didn't the Emprah would've had to invent them.
Don't mind me, I'm just over here in the #FarsightEnclaves proving space racists wrong by existing. Good luck getting rid of our fluff when Farsight is Phil Kelly's self-insert.
You are not a fun person to discuss with. You insist on exact wording when the spirit of my argument was clear as day. This is not a scientific paper, but a discussion on plastic soldiers!
