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pm713 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The thing is that most xenos want humanity dead because of their stupid hostility. If the Emperor had been rational and attempted to make alliances then humanity could have a stronger position than the current guaranteed extinction scenario.

Incorrect. The disposition of Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Necrons in regards to humanity have nothing to do with how hostile humans have or haven't been. Craftworld Eldar would likely have cooperated with, or at the very least ignored, humanity if not for the Imperium's xenophobic policies but they would still gladly sacrifice billions of humans if it meant putting one of their craftworlds in a more favorable situation.

You're telling me that there are so few species in the GALAXY that four makes a majority?

When two of those species are numerous enough to conquer the entire galaxy on their own, yes. Orks and Tyranids together decidedly account for "most xenos".

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The thing is that most xenos want humanity dead because of their stupid hostility. If the Emperor had been rational and attempted to make alliances then humanity could have a stronger position than the current guaranteed extinction scenario.

Incorrect. The disposition of Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Necrons in regards to humanity have nothing to do with how hostile humans have or haven't been. Craftworld Eldar would likely have cooperated with, or at the very least ignored, humanity if not for the Imperium's xenophobic policies but they would still gladly sacrifice billions of humans if it meant putting one of their craftworlds in a more favorable situation.

You're telling me that there are so few species in the GALAXY that four makes a majority?

When two of those species are numerous enough to conquer the entire galaxy on their own, yes. Orks and Tyranids together decidedly account for "most xenos".

Except for the fact that the Orks didn't conquer it they filled the power void when the Eldar Empire went bang and when the Emperor started out the Tyranids weren't around therefore they cannot be used as reasoning for mass hostility. Same for Necrons.

I didn't say they did conquer it, just that both of them are numerous/powerful enough to do so.

They clearly aren't though. Otherwise why haven't they?

pm713 wrote:
They clearly aren't though. Otherwise why haven't they?

Tyranids because they haven't been around long enough, Orks because they aren't a unified force.

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
They clearly aren't though. Otherwise why haven't they?

Tyranids because they haven't been around long enough, Orks because they aren't a unified force.

You mean the thing every codex has where it talks about how awesome the faction is? Believe that and pretty much anyone is unbeatable.

We're going way off topic here. Your original point was that xenos only want humanity dead because of their hostility, I strongly disagree with that statement. You mention how the Tyranids and Necrons weren't present when the Emperor enforced the current xenophobic policies, but it doesn't matter. They are present now, and a more friendly attitude towards aliens would mean nothing to either of them.

 Orblivion wrote:
We're going way off topic here. Your original point was that xenos only want humanity dead because of their hostility, I strongly disagree with that statement.

Why? Let's take a look at the Great Crusade where several succesful Human/Xenos alliances flourished. This shows that Xenos were perfectly happy to work with humans. Then let's look at a couple of Xenos who are currently hostile.
1. Craftworlders. They're out to survive so currently they're essentially at war with humanity because the Imperium wants to kill them. That's it. Without that they probably aren't going to be best buds but they're also not going to directly go to war with mankind either.
2. Tau. These are a different lot as they don't want to be left alone. They want to unite everyone in their Empire and the Greater Good. Now again with the attitude of kill on sight you're guaranteed war. Without it there is admittedly a chance of war but there's a bigger chance that the Imperium still being a powerful and large Empire isn't going to end up in a war but rather a peaceful co existence.

Then you have all manner of minor Xenos and while some are going to be hostile anyway there's going to be a lot who just want to live therefore will range from not friends but not enemies to perfectly happy to be allies.

So you have examples of Xenos - Human alliances that work. You have Xenos who would both want and benefit from peace if not alliances. Yet for some reason you think that all these beings will just want to fight because. Some things will like Orks but most will not.

Edit: Okay a friendlier attitude won't stop Tyranids. You know what does help? Being stronger because you aren't fighting literally everything.

There were plenty examples of hostile xenos during the Great Crusade as well. In fact, xenos had enslaved humanity in sections of our own solar system when the Emperor finally rose to power. The very first xenos he encountered were hostile.

What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?

pm713 wrote:
What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?

The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?

The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?

Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?

pm713 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?

The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?

Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?

Yes, do you? Those xenos were not in an alliance with the Imperium. They were in an alliance with isolated human nations. If those human nations willingly joined the Imperium the new culture may have clashed with the xenos enough for the alliance to fall apart, after all the Imperium believes it is humanity's right to rule the galaxy. If they resisted, the Imperium would have broken them. Had the xenos came to their aid, they become enemies of the Imperium. Had they not, the Imperium becomes enemies of theirs.

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?

The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?

Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?

Yes, do you? Those xenos were not in an alliance with the Imperium. They were in an alliance with isolated human nations. If those human nations willingly joined the Imperium the new culture may have clashed with the xenos enough for the alliance to fall apart, after all the Imperium believes it is humanity's right to rule the galaxy. If they resisted, the Imperium would have broken them. Had the xenos came to their aid, they become enemies of the Imperium. Had they not, the Imperium becomes enemies of theirs.

It could also not clash and the Imperium could have been part of a galaxy spanning alliance with the collective power and knowledge to prosper rather than slow and horrible death before extinction.

pm713 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?

The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?

Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?

Yes, do you? Those xenos were not in an alliance with the Imperium. They were in an alliance with isolated human nations. If those human nations willingly joined the Imperium the new culture may have clashed with the xenos enough for the alliance to fall apart, after all the Imperium believes it is humanity's right to rule the galaxy. If they resisted, the Imperium would have broken them. Had the xenos came to their aid, they become enemies of the Imperium. Had they not, the Imperium becomes enemies of theirs.

It could also not clash and the Imperium could have been part of a galaxy spanning alliance with the collective power and knowledge to prosper rather than slow and horrible death before extinction.

The Emperor didn't want a galaxy spanning alliance, he wanted a galaxy spanning human empire. Whether he hated xenos or not, how many xenos species do you think existed that would have just gone along with that?

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What's better: Some hostile Xenos or Xenos are hostile?

The Emperor didn't set out just to reunify humanity, he set out to make humanity rule the galaxy. Whether the Imperium had been xenophobic or not, how many of those alliances would have remained when the human side of them was brought to heel under the rule of the Emperor?

Do you understand the idea of joining an alliance?

Yes, do you? Those xenos were not in an alliance with the Imperium. They were in an alliance with isolated human nations. If those human nations willingly joined the Imperium the new culture may have clashed with the xenos enough for the alliance to fall apart, after all the Imperium believes it is humanity's right to rule the galaxy. If they resisted, the Imperium would have broken them. Had the xenos came to their aid, they become enemies of the Imperium. Had they not, the Imperium becomes enemies of theirs.

It could also not clash and the Imperium could have been part of a galaxy spanning alliance with the collective power and knowledge to prosper rather than slow and horrible death before extinction.

The Emperor didn't want a galaxy spanning alliance, he wanted a galaxy spanning human empire. Whether he hated xenos or not, how many xenos species do you think existed that would have just gone along with that?

Admittedly probably none. Which brings us back to the original point that humanity's current state is a result of a certain someone's stupidity/irrationality.

There is (IIRC) a mention of peace talks being conducted between Horus and the Luna Wolves and a human-alien planet, which goes bugger up when Erebus nicks the Anathame and plunges the planet into war to cover it up.

Fulgrim also encounters an alien race (The Laer), and I believe that there was talk of conducting treaties before he decided they were going to be wiped off the face of the galaxy because he was the Phoenician,

So the Great Crusade wasn't always hostile, but there were very specific criteria you had to meet before the table came out.

 HCMistborn wrote:
I understand the dislike of the Eldar, as they are arrogant and hostile, and the orks, who are murderous warlike beings, but what about the few inbetween. If Big-E had been alive and well when we met the Tau, what do you think he would do to them? Why does the =][= use those orange monkeys, or the Dark Angels little dudes who carry the helmets for Captains? I know he has already made a thousand stupid mistakes, and so it seems he serves to fit the setting of Chaos and Grimdark they created, rather than the story developing into this. Like, they wrote the ending, where we are now, and then wrote the beginning to fit that, so they had to make him how he is. I think he would destroy the Tau, since he did the same thing with Horus and those advanced humans who you know who stole from.

At Mankind's height, they were among the big kids on the block. Most xenos were considered inconsequential. Any that tried anything funny got smashed. Those that were more civilized, like the Eldar, ended up signing non-aggression pacts with Mankind's ancient federation.


Then the Age of Strife came along, and xenos that were kept down for so long, or those previously unknown, swooped down on Mankind's worlds and ran amok. Of course, the Eldar probably didn't notice since they were sinking faster into the pit of corruption. Some probably joined in on the festivities to get their jollies on killing and raping.


The man who would become Emperor lived through this. How much he knew about the situation in the galaxy is subject to speculation. But nasty xenos races had moved into Earth's solar system and set up shop, especially among the outer planets. He was certainly aware of that, and decided he would not tolerate xenos occupying soil that rightfully belonged to the Human race.

During the Great Crusade, xenos that weren't occupying formerly Human territory, or were not a threat to Mankind, were occasionally left alone (unless there was something of value on said world. Then said xenos were screwed).

In truth, the Emperor took both a "better safe than sorry" and pragmatic approach to the issue of xenos. The Imperium didn't go out of it's way to wipe out every species they encountered. The kind of rampant, fanatical xenophobia the Imperium of Man is famous for didn't come about until long after the Heresy.

 Thairne wrote:
Remember the Long Night after the birth of Slaneesh?

That is when all trade and alliances with xenos crumbled and they set upon feasting the isolated and defenceless worlds of humanity.
The Emperor remembered. He did not forgive. He does not want this to happen again.

It is grim, it is dark, he is racist - for a reason. You do not call someone that is worried about a fire a firephobe after he saw is house burn down.

This. The galaxy is populated by living weapons like the Nids, Orks and Eldar or brainwashed cultists like the Tau. The Eldar think they are a noble and educated species but the tragedy of their race includes Kaela Mensha Khaine- their wargod that resides in the heart of every Eldar. They were bred as psychic weapons to combat the Necrons and left to their own devices they tried to find another purpose.

Other races may have been corrupted by chaos- be overtly hostile to outsiders or just be sitting on something humanity needs.

There may be races that humanity could genuinely co-exist with but these will be few and far between in such a hostile galaxy and Humanity will likely kill them anyway, just to be on the safe side.

pm713 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
We're going way off topic here. Your original point was that xenos only want humanity dead because of their hostility, I strongly disagree with that statement.

Why? Let's take a look at the Great Crusade where several succesful Human/Xenos alliances flourished. This shows that Xenos were perfectly happy to work with humans. Then let's look at a couple of Xenos who are currently hostile.
1. Craftworlders. They're out to survive so currently they're essentially at war with humanity because the Imperium wants to kill them. That's it. Without that they probably aren't going to be best buds but they're also not going to directly go to war with mankind either.
2. Tau. These are a different lot as they don't want to be left alone. They want to unite everyone in their Empire and the Greater Good. Now again with the attitude of kill on sight you're guaranteed war. Without it there is admittedly a chance of war but there's a bigger chance that the Imperium still being a powerful and large Empire isn't going to end up in a war but rather a peaceful co existence.

Then you have all manner of minor Xenos and while some are going to be hostile anyway there's going to be a lot who just want to live therefore will range from not friends but not enemies to perfectly happy to be allies.

So you have examples of Xenos - Human alliances that work. You have Xenos who would both want and benefit from peace if not alliances. Yet for some reason you think that all these beings will just want to fight because. Some things will like Orks but most will not.

Edit: Okay a friendlier attitude won't stop Tyranids. You know what does help? Being stronger because you aren't fighting literally everything.

I'll try my hand at disputing these.
1. Eldar have shown many times they will sacrifice billions of human lives to save them the trouble of defending themselves against orks or tyranids. This would not change if they were not at war with the Imperium. They view themselves as the most superior race in the galaxy and have no problem sacrificing other races to save their own hides.
2. If the Imperium are Nazis then Tau are Soviets. They both want to rule the galaxy, so war was unavoidable. Neither The Emperor/HLoT nor The Ethereals are willing to play second fiddle to another race. Sorry to say, Tau are not "good guys." That is not something that exists in 40K. If you really believe that the Tau would stop expanding into Imperial space and usurping Imperial worlds just because no one shot at them, you are mistaken.

Just my $.02.

1. Those are somewhat rare cases. If you go down a road of peaceful co-operation then instead of having the Eldar slaughter humans to stop corruption from Chaos spreading you get them talking to you. In addition there's the whole: Less war - More military power because it isn't being drained constantly - Better security against said Orks.

2. Okay. Hypothetically the Tau are dumb and attack the Imperium. The Imperium is not waging war on far too many battlefields and the Tau Empire are swiftly contained and/or eliminated.

1. Until it is more convenient for them to let humans die. Like maybe divert a hive swarm into Imperial space.

2. Okay. Hypothetically the Tau DID attack, and would no matter what as they, like the Imperium, are an expansionist force.

Edit: Not really meaning to come across as insulting, more like friendly jabbing.

1. And the Imperium is better prepared for it because they aren't fighting everything. Heck if you want to be really optimistic the Eldar might even say there's a swarm coming. Although they probably wouldn't mention why.

2. There's a difference between expansionist and attacking everything nearby.

1. So they kill billions of humans and he shouldn't hate them for it? I am failing to grasp the argument here. Also they would still be fighting Orks, Nids, and Chaos at the very least.

2.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansionism Generally it means to take all the land/space around you, usually through military means. All planet/systems that would not willingly join would be forced through warfare. Even those that did willing join the Tau would not be permitted without a fight from the larger Imperium.

1. No whats happening is "Lots of humans died but it would have been worse if the Eldar hadn't warned us". Sounds more like a reason to like them to me.

2. Does expansionism require you to give up all common sense? Because nobody sane just launches attacks against a force that's greatly superior.

1. So because the warn the humans, we, as players/readers, should ignore that they caused it?

2. They have done that very thing. They have taken Imperial worlds, despite being massively outgunned.

1. No but you're assuming the Imperium would be acting on information it doesn't have. We would know the Eldar caused the invasion but people in universe don't.

2. They can't take on the entire Imperium though.

@Orbvillion: No it isn’t pragmatism. If I encounter race A and race A seeks to destroy me that does not rationally justify that if I meet race B, a wholly unrelated race to race A, I should destroy them. If we were to use the logic you are espousing then as soon as I meet a murderer I should, pragmatically, kill everyone else I ever meet in order to ensure none of them potentially murder me.

That isn’t how pragmatism works.

Additionally, his belief isn’t ‘mostly right’ because its factually wrong. You cannot say you believe ‘every alien race would eradicate mankind if given the chance’ then encounter groups such as the Interex, Diasporex, Tentacle-what’s-their-names-from-the-Macharian-Crusade which do not want to eradicate mankind and claim you are ‘mostly right’ because you are now, demonstrably, factually wrong since you have encountered alien races which do not wish to eradicate mankind meaning the statement ‘all races would eradicate mankind in a heartbeat’ is now factually incorrect. It is wrong.

Thank goodness for myself as an Imperium player the Eldar didn’t subscribe to this inanely illogical thinking otherwise the story of the Imperium would have ended really early.

Also, honestly, since you simply reduced your argument too ‘humans can’t work with the Xenos because the Emperor wants humans alone to rule everything’ it just means we return to the much belaboured point now that the Emperor was an irrationally racially prejudiced individual.

@Thairne: What? A person being bitten by a spider and then developing arachnophobia is understandable but that doesn’t mean it’s rational. A phobia is irrational. If you see your house burn down that you might develop an irrational fear of fire is understandable but it still remains irrational. So yes you do still call someone with an irrational fear of something, even if that irrational fear emerges from a negative situation, as having a phobia. Obviously.

Additionally, again, Orks, Tyranids and Dark Eldar terrorize ALL alien races, not just humans, maybe if the Emperor spent more time working together with aliens willing to work together, such as the Diasporex, everyone could have been saved from these evil groups who do not represent all life in the galaxy at all.

Farseer Anath’lan: In both cases you mentioned a caveat must be brought up;

Fulgrim and Horus both, when suggesting negotiating with aliens, meet immediate resistance from their men who point out that ‘Standing policy is to kill aliens automatically regardless of all circumstances’.

Horus, in the case of the Interex, believes that they should attempt diplomacy now that they are stronger, in the case of the Laer Fulgrim just feels it would be demeaning to him to have to negotiate. However, later, Fulgrim is willing to negotiate with Eldar (despite his men’s protestations again) because he believes a race capable of making as ‘pretty’ things as them deserves it.

In all three cases it is made clear it is the private initiative if the Primarch against the standing orders of the Emperor.

@oldravenman3025: Actually in The Beast Arises series and the Asurmen books, the only fluff I know which deals with the actual Eldar Empire, the Eldar explain that they defeated the human nation of the time (and their Robot armies as the Shadowseer puts it) easily but didn’t exterminate them because it wasn’t what they did, beating them was good enough for the Eldar. In fact Asurmen implies Orks are pretty much the only species the Eldar at large really even knew as an Empire, no other race warranted concern from them.

Additionally, can you give one example of an alien race which was not wiped out when encountered? Both the Diasporex and Tarellians were subjected to attacks without provocations during the Great Crusade and, as said above, Marines protested whenever their Primarchs sought to engage in diplomacy with peaceful aliens as being against ‘The policy’ of the Great Crusade. Exactly which aliens did the Emperor ever spare?

Furthermore, again, wiping out all Xenos you meet because SOME Xenos have been a threat to you is not pragmatic. It’s an irrational leap from targeting Xenos who THREATEN you to targeting Xenos regardless of any other circumstances. Not to mention, again, under this logic then the Emperor should wipe out humans to prevent the atrocities and depredations we inflict on each other constantly within the Warhammer universe.

Lord Blackscale: Of course the Tau are better than the Imperium, morally speaking, that’s just obvious logic. Both organizations do horrible things, expanding their empires for example, but the Imperium does more. Just because two groups do bad things doesn’t mean automatically moral equivalence exists between them, that’s an incredibly naive understanding of moral philosophy, since by that logic I could argue ‘The Republic of South Africa is as evil as Nazi Germany’ simply because both have done bad things (ALL GOVERNMENTS/NATIONS/POLITIES DO BAD THINGS).

EDIT: To add, and clarify, all polities are evil. However they are evil to differing extents. The Tau Empire is evil, horribly so, but it is still incalculably better than the Imperium of Man, the Orks or the Tyranids.

@Angel: I missed this fact so I'll respond to it quick; you're saying that if someone has something you need you're automatically justified in killing them? I just...marvel at this. By this logic anything is justified the moment you want it. "I want that car," kill someone and take it from them, "I want your gold," kill someone and take it from them. I mean if you're advocating that the moment you want something someone else has you're justified to take it from them then why bother protesting the Long Night? The humans were probably just sitting on stuff the Xenos wanted, they've your blessing to kill them.

Honestly I'm sometimes despairing of the seemingly literal religious worship a fictional genocidal dictator receives (from real people now, not within the universe, I understand within the fictional universe why it is so and enjoy it, I just shudder at the way real people worship it). Personally I think Morden's posts about the Grandmaster and his defence sum this all up best.

@Anemone: You misunderstood what I was saying, but whatever.

It is an entirely logical thought process.

"I want my species (humanity) to rule the galaxy unopposed. There are these other things in the galaxy that may or may not want to be slave-vassals to my empire. Some of these things are militarized and will oppose me. Therefore, if I am to rule the galaxy unopposed, these other things must be exterminated."

Is it moral? No... but logic exists apart from morality, and does not, indeed, can not, consider moral implications in logical decisions. Logic exists outside of emotional concerns.

As mentioned previously, other alien races had been demonstrably hostile during Mankind's spread across the stars and during the Dark Age of Technology. If one bug-eyed, blue-skinned freak with tentacles was monstrous, it is safest for all if you consider that all bug-eyed, blue-skinned freaks with tentacles are monstrous and destroy their worlds utterly as you encounter them.

Lastly? This is Warhammer 40k. It is a grim galaxy of perilous adventure. Everyone in it is some kind of fanatic, and all of its heroes perform deeds that would have made Hitler pause. All of them support some kind of monstrous ultra-conservative theocratic empire, whether that is the Imperium, the Ruinous Powers, the Tau, or anything else. For the human characters, the setting asks only what part of their humanity they will sacrifice today in order to survive and, maybe, perhaps it would not have been better to die? There are no good guys in this setting, just protagonists and antagonists.