Well if I remember rightly there was that gunman a few weeks ago that was shot in Germany. Didnt he have mental health issues. No connection to terrorism that time. I could be wrong.
xKillGorex wrote: Well if I remember rightly there was that gunman a few weeks ago that was shot in Germany. Didnt he have mental health issues. No connection to terrorism that time. I could be wrong.
I remember the axe attack on the train by a self radicalized individual. I don't recall a gun attack.
xKillGorex wrote: Well if I remember rightly there was that gunman a few weeks ago that was shot in Germany. Didnt he have mental health issues. No connection to terrorism that time. I could be wrong.
I remember the axe attack on the train by a self radicalized individual. I don't recall a gun attack.
Yeah I'm sure it was about 3-4 weeks ago. If I recall the guy was armed with an air rifle.
Sounds like multiple areas (the mall/shopping area and now at least one transit station). Maybe multiple shooters (heard the shopping area shooter un-assed the AO and may be the transit station shooter too).
CptJake wrote: Sounds like multiple areas (the mall/shopping area and now at least one transit station). Maybe multiple shooters (heard the shopping area shooter un-assed the AO and may be the transit station shooter too).
That's what they initially thought in Dallas, too. Turned out to be one man and a bunch of confusion. Let's hope that this is just one of their neo-nazi radicals and not an actual terror action like we've seen in France.
CptJake wrote: Sounds like multiple areas (the mall/shopping area and now at least one transit station). Maybe multiple shooters (heard the shopping area shooter un-assed the AO and may be the transit station shooter too).
That's what they initially thought in Dallas, too. Turned out to be one man and a bunch of confusion. Let's hope that this is just one of their neo-nazi radicals and not an actual terror action like we've seen in France.
I'm a firm believer initial reporting is usually wrong.
I VERY seriously doubt this is a neo-nazi attack. The pics of seen of the shooter(s?) (there is some video on twitter as well as other sources don't look like it.
One of the videos shows what appears to be a dark haired guy start firing at folks.
Yeah, not the best video quality and hair color is not the best indicator, I get it. But the firing at a crowd of shoppers instead of targeting a Mosque or Gov't target to me is the initial indicator it isn't neo-nazi. Wrong target set for that crowd.
I'm hoping it's not a terror attack, but I'm afraid that it more than likely is.
Which really is a pity, as Germany really is trying to do right for the Syrian refugees, but it won't take very many terrorist attacks (which this may or may not be) to erode public support.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I'm hoping it's not a terror attack, but I'm afraid that it more than likely is.
Which really is a pity, as Germany really is trying to do right for the Syrian refugees, but it won't take very many terrorist attacks (which this may or may not be) to erode public support.
Of course it is a terror attack, what else could it be? A failed armed robbery?
There's a video where the gunman speaks with some other people before shooting. A poster on reddit translated:
Guy: Du Arschloch, du Wixxer (You donkey-cave, you spanker)
Gunman: Und jetzt muss ich ne Waffe kaufen um euch ???umzubringen??? (And now I have to buy a weapon to ???kill you???)
Guy: Dir gehört der Schädel abgeschnitten, du Arschloch (Someone should cut your head off, you donkey-cave)
Guy2: Scheiss Türken (fething Turks)
Guy: Scheiss Kanacken (fething [don't have a proper translation for that: something like sand don't use this word on Dakka. Reds8n
Guy: Er hat eine geladene Waffe (He has a loaded gun) Holt die Bullen! (Bring the cops!) Der Wixxer (This spanker)
Gunman: Ich bin Deutscher (I'm a german)
Guy: Du bist ein Wixxer, bist du (You're a spanker, that's what you are)
Gunman: Hört auf mich zu filmen! (Stop filming me!)
Guy: Was macht dich deutsch? (What makes you german?)
Gunman: Ich bin hier geboren worden. (I was born here)
Guy: Na und? Was machst für einen Scheiß? (So what? What gak are you doing?)
Gunman: ???Wenn ihr mir Hartz4 gebt??? (Not sure about that: When you give me Hartz4? Hartz4 = unemployment benefit)
Gunman: Ich war in Behandlung (I was in therapy)
Guy: Ja, Behandlung. Du gehörst in die Psychiatrie du Arschloch. (Yes, therapy. You belong to psychiatry, you donkey-cave.)
Gunman: Ich habe nichts getan. Halten Sie die Schnauze. (I did nothing. Shut the feth up!)
Guy: Du Wixxer, du (You spanker, you)
Germany recently announced that it believes in the Armenian Genocide and that the Ottoman Empiree was behind it. Turkey responded by saying "there will be consequences."
Things haven't been peachy since then, but they were good before hand.
Was just reading up on this on spiegel.de - they don't know much yet, at least eight dead, possibly up to three shooters, traffic is being re-directed away from the city, hospitals are on emergency alert. Police forces including the GSG9 are being drawn to the city.
It could have been a mentally ill/unstable single perpetrator. One male was found nearby the shopping mall who is not added to the list of victims by the police. He could have committed suicide. His death is currently investigated. I would keep politics out of this until we have evidence for it.
The 9th victim shot himself in the head. Most likely this is the shooter.
He was not found nearby the shopping mall but about 1000m away from it. It is confirmed that he shot himself.
The roughly translated conversation posted above sounds like it might (!) be a German guy with a migrant background that got hassled by racists. I can't imagine that someone walks around with a gun all day, every day, and then suddendly flips out apparently at random at something like that and shoots a few people. Something doesn't add up.
'Boom boom boom - he's killing the kids': Gunman shouting 'Allahu Akbar' executed children in Munich McDonald's before rampaging through mall killing NINE with police now hunting three attackers
• A number of people have been killed and another 10 people are injured after gunmen went on a shooting rampage
• Police operation is ongoing in Munich, with the force warning people to stay in their homes and avoid public spaces
• Terrified shoppers were seen running for their lives from the Olympia Shopping Centre after hearing gunshots
• Witnesses said that the shopping centre gunman screamed 'I'm German' and 'Allahu Akbar' before shooting
• Gunman reportedly fled after his shooting spree on the city underground network, which has now been shut down
• City is in lockdown as police say they are searching for up to three gunmen, who are all on the run, after the attack
Breotan wrote: Headline and bullet points from Daily Mail.
'Boom boom boom - he's killing the kids': Gunman shouting 'Allahu Akbar' executed children in Munich McDonald's before rampaging through mall killing NINE with police now hunting three attackers
• A number of people have been killed and another 10 people are injured after gunmen went on a shooting rampage
• Police operation is ongoing in Munich, with the force warning people to stay in their homes and avoid public spaces
• Terrified shoppers were seen running for their lives from the Olympia Shopping Centre after hearing gunshots
• Witnesses said that the shopping centre gunman screamed 'I'm German' and 'Allahu Akbar' before shooting
• Gunman reportedly fled after his shooting spree on the city underground network, which has now been shut down
• City is in lockdown as police say they are searching for up to three gunmen, who are all on the run, after the attack
Kids... That's a new damn low...
For lowlife scum.
Hope the Germans take them down.
Just erase them off the planet...there just monsters ..
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angelofvengeance wrote: Kinda wish we had something like Space Marines to come mop the floor with these scumbags. Suffer not the terrorist to live!
Might as well start somewhere....
Us has built power armour. Exo lifting suits.
angelofvengeance wrote: Kinda wish we had something like Space Marines to come mop the floor with these scumbags. Suffer not the terrorist to live!
We don't need space marines for that but it's racist to point out Islam is a problem, it's not politically correct to fight a war, we should just accept our society being attacked constantly and be happy they come in and want us all to die.
angelofvengeance wrote: Kinda wish we had something like Space Marines to come mop the floor with these scumbags. Suffer not the terrorist to live!
We don't need space marines for that but it's racist to point out Islam is a problem, it's not politically correct to fight a war, we should just accept our society being attacked constantly and be happy they come in and want us all to die.
If its a war, we should fight it as one. Not play games, not half hearted. Go fight them properly or not at all.
This half hearted token war ain't stopping them
He's not upset about it. He's thrilled to have an opportunity to pump his agenda.
Spoiler:
Rainbow Dash wrote:So when do we start talking about Islamic Terrorism?
Rainbow Dash wrote:Of course it's related.
You don't have this many attacks in such a short amount of time and it not related.
It's always related.
Rainbow Dash wrote:Of course it was Islamic terrorism, I don't even have to ask anymore.
Rainbow Dash wrote: it's racist to point out Islam is a problem, it's not politically correct to fight a war, we should just accept our society being attacked constantly and be happy they come in and want us all to die.
Future War Cultist wrote: You're more annoyed that someone is angry at yet another Islamic attack than at the attack itself?
I think the annoyance (at least from me) comes from the fact that someone is jumping to conclusions before really any of the actual facts are out and using it to foment irrational fears and hatred. Strangely absent from this discussion are the conflicting reports of the man being a possible right wing anti immigration nut--today is the five year anniversary of the Norway massacre after all. People just need to calm down and wait for the facts before spouting their invective.
Future War Cultist wrote: You're more annoyed that someone is angry at yet another Islamic attack than at the attack itself?
It happens, not allowed to be mad at the source, just go along with the status quo.
Ideology kills hundreds in 2106 (in the west alone) but hey I'm the bad guy for being mad at it...
A gun attack at a Munich shopping centre which left nine people dead was carried out by one gunman who then killed himself, police have said.
A huge manhunt was launched following reports that up to three gunmen had been involved in the attack at the Olympia centre.
The body of the suspect was found about 1km (0.6 miles) from the shopping centre and police used a robot to check it for explosives.
The motive for the attack is unclear.
Don't forget the knife attack on a train in Germany, and the stabbing on the beach in France. And the Belguim airport bomb...and the attempted attacks on RAF personel...
This problem is not going away.
The attacks are increasing.
We are on a frontline and they do not care who they kill.
Ignoring it is not a option.
Thank you.
We have 3 terror attacks in west on page one of this Su forum
Nearly 100 dead in what 2 weeks....
That's a problem
Yeah and no one wants to talk about the root of that, I bring it up and I am a racist and pushing a hateful agenda.
You don't fight terrorism by being nice.
You can't be PC about this, that time is gone, that failed.
Asterios wrote: you will have to excuse Ouze, hes not a Trump supporter or whatever and realizes with the increase of such attacks it will help to get Trump elected.
I doubt that dude...
I'd argue that Clinton is much more of a hawk that Trump will ever be...
This problem is not going away.
The attacks are increasing.
We are on a frontline and they do not care who they kill.
Ignoring it is not a option.
Thank you.
We have 3 terror attacks in west on page one of this Su forum
Nearly 100 dead in what 2 weeks....
That's a problem
Yeah and no one wants to talk about the root of that, I bring it up and I am a racist and pushing a hateful agenda.
You don't fight terrorism by being nice.
You can't be PC about this, that time is gone, that failed.
It's not about being PC or not. How about waiting to get the facts about who he was and what his motives were before spouting off? I know, that might seem unreasonable, but once upon a time we didn't reach for our guns before we asked, "hey, what's the problem?" despite what those liberals in Hollywood would have you believe.
It might be Islamic in nature, it might not. The thing thats making me think it isn't was the fact that the shooter killed himself, instead of waiting for the cops to do it. Suicide for the sake of it is forbidden, even in extremist views. Apparently they view suicide bombings differently than shooting yourself in the head, because the first is still an act of righteousness.
Asterios wrote: you will have to excuse Ouze, hes not a Trump supporter or whatever and realizes with the increase of such attacks it will help to get Trump elected.
I doubt that dude...
I'd argue that Clinton is much more of a hawk that Trump will ever be...
problem is these attacks are spreading fear and hate of Islamics because of Islamic extremists, and while Hillary wants to let more refugees in which may or may not have Islamic extremists mixed in with them, Tump wants to stop all immigration from countries known to be terrorist breeding grounds and such.
Fear and hate will put Trump in office, not Hillary she is seen as too soft and running her party line.
Asterios wrote: you will have to excuse Ouze, hes not a Trump supporter or whatever and realizes with the increase of such attacks it will help to get Trump elected.
Lol no, the average voter doesn't give a gak about attacks that happen overseas. I'd be surprised if the average voter could even find Germany on a map if it wasn't labelled. The impact on US elections is pretty much nonexistent in my opinion.
Anyways this isn't really a topic about Trump or the US elections
Asterios wrote: you will have to excuse Ouze, hes not a Trump supporter or whatever and realizes with the increase of such attacks it will help to get Trump elected.
Lol no, the average voter doesn't give a gak about attacks that happen overseas. I'd be surprised if the average voter could even find Germany on a map if it wasn't labelled. The impact on US elections is pretty much nonexistent in my opinion.
Anyways this isn't really a topic about Trump or the US elections
look to history and say that. not too mention in todays media centric society things that happen in other places are known and felt here now more so then ever in our countries history.
Nobody needs an apology, they just don't need Internet warriors jumping to declare anti Jihad immediately anytime something bad happens. It helps nothing. The ISIS or Isis inclined people take it as a sign they are right, that they have to kill in order to live. The hard left looks at it above the fray from their bespectacled noses and says "humph". The rest of the people, the vast masses, look at it and say that's horrible, how can I help? Wait they don't really do that. They Watch CNN or fox or whatever and shake their heads and go on with their lives.
Nah, that's not evidence alone. He used what he had access to. If he had grenades and an AK, sure, he would have used that. But he would charge those people with a sharpened stick if it was his only option and he was sufficiently motivated.
Lol no, the average voter doesn't give a gak about attacks that happen overseas. I'd be surprised if the average voter could even find Germany on a map if it wasn't labelled. The impact on US elections is pretty much nonexistent in my opinion.
This is very telling.
A lot of the time when these things happen, people like you come out of the woodwork not to express sorrow or grief at the murders, but rather instead to simply complain about all the bigotry these things inspire. You're angier at Trump, Farrage, Wilders, Powel etc. for being proven correct, rather than at the killer(s). People like you are always angier at people being angry over the atrocities rather than the atrocities themselves.
Tell us, should the average voter just learn to live with terrorism, as the French Prime Minister Manuel Valls suggested, because allowing people to be killed on mass in public is a small price to pay to keep things all happy clappy and pc?
Lol no, the average voter doesn't give a gak about attacks that happen overseas. I'd be surprised if the average voter could even find Germany on a map if it wasn't labelled. The impact on US elections is pretty much nonexistent in my opinion.
This is very telling.
A lot of the time when these things happen, people like you come out of the woodwork not to express sorrow or grief at the murders, but rather instead to simply complain about all the bigotry these things inspire. People like you are always angier at people being angry over the atrocities rather than the atrocities themselves.
Tell us, should the average voter just learn to live with terrorism, as the French Prime Minister Manuel Valls suggested, because allowing people to be killed on mass in public is a small price to pay to keep things all happy clappy and pc?
How do we solve this then?
You may also want to note that the anger Ouze is expressing isn't towards people being upset about the acts, but rather about people going after Muslims despite the fact that we don't even know why this happened yet.
Lol no, the average voter doesn't give a gak about attacks that happen overseas. I'd be surprised if the average voter could even find Germany on a map if it wasn't labelled. The impact on US elections is pretty much nonexistent in my opinion.
This is very telling.
A lot of the time when these things happen, people like you come out of the woodwork not to express sorrow or grief at the murders, but rather instead to simply complain about all the bigotry these things inspire. People like you are always angier at people being angry over the atrocities rather than the atrocities themselves.
Tell us, should the average voter just learn to live with terrorism, as the French Prime Minister Manuel Valls suggested, because allowing people to be killed on mass in public is a small price to pay to keep things all happy clappy and pc?
How do we solve this then?
You may also want to note that the anger Ouze is expressing isn't towards people being upset about the acts, but rather about people going after Muslims despite the fact that we don't even know why this happened yet.
well no matter how you look at it, it is terrorism, whether its Islamic extremists or not is unknown at this time.
I would love to tell you how we stop this, but in this day and age and in my country, it would be a crime to do so. And that right there is why we are losing the battle.
I would love to tell you how we stop this, but in this day and age and in my country, it would be a crime to do so. And that right there is why we are losing the battle.
Let me guess: either "glass the Middle East" or "get rid of Islam completely" or a combination of the two?
I would love to tell you how we stop this, but in this day and age and in my country, it would be a crime to do so. And that right there is why we are losing the battle.
Let me guess: either "glass the Middle East" or "get rid of Islam completely" or a combination of the two?
neither is an option, but how does one remove the normal peaceful Muslims from the radical extremists Muslims? its not like they wear signs or something?
How about waiting to figure out who was responsible first, be it anti immigration skinhead neo nazis or Islamic terrorists, then make a binding decision here on the dakka forums?
How about waiting to figure out who was responsible first, be it anti immigration skinhead neo nazis or Islamic terrorists, then make a binding decision here on the dakka forums?
well if what the other link says is true and the shooter is Iranian born think we can rule out skinhead neo-nazis.
Future War Cultist wrote: A lot of the time when these things happen, people like you come out of the woodwork
With 17,000 posts, I didn't think I was hiding in the woodwork.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You may also want to note that the anger Ouze is expressing isn't towards people being upset about the acts, but rather about people going after Muslims despite the fact that we don't even know why this happened yet.
I'm not mad at all, really. Just expressing my disappointment with how quick someone was to milk a tragedy for their own agenda before the blood was dry, let alone before we know what happened for sure and why it happened.
SickSix wrote: I am sure it has nothing to do with radical Islam or Germany letting in a million 'refugees' no questions asked.
It was probably just a workplace violence incident.
And obviously reports of it being a shooting are greatly exaggerated as guns a banned in Germany.
You're not adding anything to the conversation. It's easy to be snarky and snide, but it's worthless in contributing. If you don't like what Deutschland is doing, take it up with Frau Merkel.
Sure. Keep up pressure on ISIS, they're losing ground every day and have been for months now. Start working towards undermining Saudi Arabia's influence in the Middle East. Stop randomly bombing countries in the Middle East (do note that ISIS isn't what I'd consider a random bombing campaign, I'm talking stuff like Iraq and Libya). Support the living hell out of democracy in Tunisia to make sure the one democracy to emerge from the Arab Spring doesn't falter.
Ultimately, though, this situation isn't going to go away until socioeconomic conditions and education levels in the Middle East and the Indo-Iranian region improves. Break the monopoly on interpreting the Quran that religious leaders have (and they are interpretations) through teaching critical thinking and improving literacy rates.
Future War Cultist wrote: A lot of the time when these things happen, people like you come out of the woodwork
With 17,000 posts, I didn't think I was hiding in the woodwork.
Why don't you stop deflecting and answer the question?
@ Gordon Shumway
I noticed you said anti immigration skin head neo nazi first. Very telling.
Is someone with German-Iranian nationality (and according to the pictures taken, a full head of hair) likely to be an anti immigration skin head neo nazi?
How about waiting to figure out who was responsible first, be it anti immigration skinhead neo nazis or Islamic terrorists, then make a binding decision here on the dakka forums?
well if what the other link says is true and the shooter is Iranian born think we can rule out skinhead neo-nazis.
erm... I've actually seen a few Iranian skinheads...
Future War Cultist wrote: A lot of the time when these things happen, people like you come out of the woodwork
With 17,000 posts, I didn't think I was hiding in the woodwork.
Why don't you stop deflecting and answer the question?
What was the question - what should Germany do about what happened today? I don't know, since I don't yet know the details for sure. Usually these breaking stories have tons os things in them that are not true, and you don't know for sure for a day or so.
Additionally, I don't live in Germany, so I can't really speak intelligently about their culture or challenges. I can opine on what I think the US should do about extremist terrorist attacks but that might be totally off topic until we know what happened and why.
What we are doing is actually working. The reason why there are more attacks now is that prior to this ISIS was busy nation building and running their own little country. We are taking that away from them, they are getting less relevant as a caliphate every day, and they are lashing out in frustration screaming "look at us you idiots, we are still relevant, join us and fear us" as they are dying.
Future War Cultist wrote: A lot of the time when these things happen, people like you come out of the woodwork
With 17,000 posts, I didn't think I was hiding in the woodwork.
Why don't you stop deflecting and answer the question?
@ Gordon Shumway
I noticed you said anti immigration skin head neo nazi first. Very telling.
Is someone with German-Iranian nationality (and according to the pictures taken, a full head of hair) likely to be an anti immigration skin head neo nazi?
I dunno, are they likely to be from Kansas? Seems to fit the pattern of Kansans. Or North Dakotans. Or South Dakotans. Oh god, you can't trust anyone!
For starters, accept that there is a serious issue with Islam's teachings.
And that is all I'm going to say, because I'm seriously not going to recieve a visit from the police over this like so many others in this fethed up country.
@ Ouze
The question was should all of the west just learn to live with terrorism because doing something (anything) about it is rascist/xenophobic/additional PC load o'bollocks word?
For starters, accept that there is a serious issue with Islam's teachings.
And that is all I'm going to say, because I'm seriously not going to recieve a visit from the police over this like so many others in this fethed up country.
@ Ouze
The question was should all of the west just learn to live with terrorism because doing something (anything) about it is rascist/xenophobic/additional PC load o'bollocks word?
What paranoid BS. Yeah there are some serious problems with Islam, as there are with Hinduism, and Christianity and Judaism and whatever other dogmatic religion you want to point the finger at.
For starters, accept that there is a serious issue with Islam's teachings.
And that is all I'm going to say, because I'm seriously not going to recieve a visit from the police over this like so many others in this fethed up country.
@ Ouze
The question was should all of the west just learn to live with terrorism because doing something (anything) about it is rascist/xenophobic/additional PC load o'bollocks word?
What paranoid BS. Yeah there are some serious problems with Islam, as there are with Hinduism, and Christianity and Judaism and whatever other dogmatic religion you want to point the finger at.
all religions have their weirdos and extremists and they should not be combined as a whole, problem is when you are in a war with religious zealots, how do you fight that war when you do not know who the extremists are until they do something extreme?
Solution before we put boots on ground. It sucks. trust me. Only viable option is wall it off. Screen the refugee's 49 ways to Sunday and hope for the best prepare for the worst
For starters, accept that there is a serious issue with Islam's teachings.
And that is all I'm going to say, because I'm seriously not going to recieve a visit from the police over this like so many others in this fethed up country.
@ Ouze
The question was should all of the west just learn to live with terrorism because doing something (anything) about it is rascist/xenophobic/additional PC load o'bollocks word?
What paranoid BS. Yeah there are some serious problems with Islam, as there are with Hinduism, and Christianity and Judaism and whatever other dogmatic religion you want to point the finger at.
Y'know, its not BS at all. You don't see Christians or Jews or Hindus going into crowded places and blowing themselves up along with lots of innocent people, thinking that they are righteous as they do so. Ultimately every religion (even, I admit, Christianity) has its share of kooks, but Muslim extremists take it to a whole other level of kookiness (is that a word?). Unfortunately, Islam has some rather paranoid core teachings about how non-Muslims are evil and that it is the will of Allah that they be destroyed if they do not convert to Islam. Compare this to perhaps the most core tenet of Christianity, which is to "Love one another". My dad has a book about some of the problems of Islam, if I could remember the title and author I'd cite it here.
Now, I don't advocate glassing the Middle East or any crap like that, but we innocent people in the West have a right to defend ourselves against terrorism. All this PC horsegak is just making the terrorists' jobs easier.
Jihadin wrote: Solution before we put boots on ground. It sucks. trust me. Only viable option is wall it off. Screen the refugee's 49 ways to Sunday and hope for the best prepare for the worst
Future War Cultist wrote: The question was should all of the west just learn to live with terrorism because doing something (anything) about it is rascist/xenophobic/additional PC load o'bollocks word?
First, you're working from a false premise. I'm not sure what "the west" should do as a whole, but the weird idea that we're too panicked with fear of being labelled not PC to do anything at all is just pants on head crazy. The US has dropped so much ordnance on ISIL that we are literally running out of bombs.
I think we have to work from the premise that you can't stop all terrorism, no matter what you do. It's too easy to rent a truck, or in the US, get a rifle. All we can do is deal with it intelligently, and that means accepting that a military campaign isn't going to always be the best tool. In fact, a ground campaign would be exactly what some of these parties want worst of all, because it would help their recruitment.
You have to deal with it slowly: pressure our foreign allies to carry their fair share of the fight, continue to hit their financial support, continue eliminating leadership when possible, try and secure the border to prevent attacks from outside parties, identify gaps in domestic law enforcement that let lone wolves get radicalized, recognize situations that we can't improve, like Syria, and avoid them, and foster moderate parties whenever possible. You can't stop them all, but you can definitely work hard to mitigate it to an almost nonexistent level, much like it is now in the US.
Ouze wrote: continue to hit their financial support, continue eliminating leadership when possible, try and secure the border to prevent attacks from outside parties, identify gaps in domestic law enforcement that let lone wolves get radicalized, recognize situations that we can't improve, like Syria, and avoid them, and foster moderate parties whenever possible. You can't stop them all, but you can definitely work hard to mitigate it to an almost nonexistent level, much like it is now in the US.
does that mean we won't be sending ISIL anymore money? also let the anger flow, feel the power of the dark side as all that you mentioned is not what Clinton wants to do.
Ouze wrote: continue to hit their financial support, continue eliminating leadership when possible, try and secure the border to prevent attacks from outside parties, identify gaps in domestic law enforcement that let lone wolves get radicalized, recognize situations that we can't improve, like Syria, and avoid them, and foster moderate parties whenever possible. You can't stop them all, but you can definitely work hard to mitigate it to an almost nonexistent level, much like it is now in the US.
does that mean we won't be sending ISIL anymore money? also let the anger flow, feel the power of the dark side as all that you mentioned is not what Clinton wants to do.
Do you think we didn't send money to the Saudis before Obama? Guys, my point is, pointing fingers on an online website is not going to solve any problems. Want to solve something? Join the armed forces. Join the peace corps. Join unicef. Join the Red Cross. Give blood or plasma. Just don't come online and start shouting about how horrible one religion or a group of people are. It does no good. It only emboldens those who think they can make a country or countries come to their knees with the division they can cause with their silly little guns and bombs.
Ouze wrote: continue to hit their financial support, continue eliminating leadership when possible, try and secure the border to prevent attacks from outside parties, identify gaps in domestic law enforcement that let lone wolves get radicalized, recognize situations that we can't improve, like Syria, and avoid them, and foster moderate parties whenever possible. You can't stop them all, but you can definitely work hard to mitigate it to an almost nonexistent level, much like it is now in the US.
does that mean we won't be sending ISIL anymore money? also let the anger flow, feel the power of the dark side as all that you mentioned is not what Clinton wants to do.
Do you think we didn't send money to the Saudis before Obama? Guys, my point is, pointing fingers on an online website is not going to solve any problems. Want to solve something? Join the armed forces. Join the peace corps. Join unicef. Join the Red Cross. Give blood or plasma. Just don't come online and start shouting about how horrible one religion or a group of people are. It does no good. It only emboldens those who think they can make a country or countries come to their knees with the division they can cause with their silly little guns and bombs.
oh the US does not have a good track record when it comes to sending money to the middle east. ISIS is only the recent one.
Do we send them one of those giant game show checks made out to ISIS that they endorse and deposit at the local Islamic bank, or do we send them camels carrying small non-consecutive bills when we send them their foreign aid?
d-usa wrote: Do we send them one of those giant game show checks made out to ISIS that they endorse and deposit at the local Islamic bank, or do we send them camels carrying small non-consecutive bills when we send them their foreign aid?
nah we gave them things like these:
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Breotan wrote: I just read that the killer was Iranian. Isn't that unusual for a terrorist?
still a terrorists whether Islamic or not is another question, a Terrorist is one who causes fear and such.
Ast... we did *give* those things... those were stolen.
d-usa wrote: Do we send them one of those giant game show checks made out to ISIS that they endorse and deposit at the local Islamic bank, or do we send them camels carrying small non-consecutive bills when we send them their foreign aid?
nah we gave them things like these:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breotan wrote: I just read that the killer was Iranian. Isn't that unusual for a terrorist?
still a terrorists whether Islamic or not is another question, a Terrorist is one who causes fear and such.
Ast... we did *give* those things... those were stolen.
I'm confused what you're driving at here...
actually we did give them to them by giving them to the Iraqis who left them behind when they fled. so yeah we gave them to them indirectly but still.
d-usa wrote: Do we send them one of those giant game show checks made out to ISIS that they endorse and deposit at the local Islamic bank, or do we send them camels carrying small non-consecutive bills when we send them their foreign aid?
nah we gave them things like these:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breotan wrote: I just read that the killer was Iranian. Isn't that unusual for a terrorist?
still a terrorists whether Islamic or not is another question, a Terrorist is one who causes fear and such.
Ast... we did *give* those things... those were stolen.
I'm confused what you're driving at here...
Its cool, their nothing but rolling death traps anyways. Pack them up good an tight for airborne ordinance.
The gunman had dual citizenship: Iran & Germany
He used a pistol
He appears to have acted alone, despite earlier reports
Not known to the police
No motive is yet known.
The gunman had dual citizenship: Iran & Germany
He used a pistol
He appears to have acted alone, despite earlier reports
Not known to the police
No motive is yet known.
so still no clue if this is radical Islamic terrorism or just homegrown version of terrorism?
d-usa wrote: It will be labeled terrorism, even if it really wasn't. Just like Orlando.
if you go by the US federal code it is:
The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"
but as to what his motives are is still a mystery.
I still don't feel confident of ultimate motive was behind the Orlando shooting. People said he was secretly gay and self-loathing over it, but the FBI says no. He said he supports ISIL, but the CIA says no.
My guess it a little of A, a little of B, mixed with a big dose of "crazyperson".
Ouze wrote: I still don't feel confident of ultimate motive was behind the Orlando shooting. People said he was secretly gay and self-loathing over it, but the FBI says no. He said he supports ISIL, but the CIA says no.
My guess it a little of A, a little of B, mixed with a big dose of "crazyperson".
but are not most Terrorist a big dose of crazyperson?
as to the Orlando shooter he doesn't have to be a member of ISIS to be a an Islamic Terrorist if he was influenced by their spiel. and there in is the biggest danger in this country are the homegrown terrorists who are inspired by ISIS and their ideals.
Ouze wrote: I still don't feel confident of ultimate motive was behind the Orlando shooting. People said he was secretly gay and self-loathing over it, but the FBI says no. He said he supports ISIL, but the CIA says no.
My guess it a little of A, a little of B, mixed with a big dose of "crazyperson".
That's my take, for the most part. His mix of groups that he pledged support for was very weird, that would be like a shooter pledging support for TNBPP, the KKK and Nation of Islam. I think he was a "regular" spree shooter, who just had to give himself some justification to convince himself that he is not just you regular anti-social nut job.
....A shooting at a Munich shopping centre which left nine people dead was carried out by one gunman who then killed himself, German police have said.
The suspect was an 18-year-old German-Iranian dual national who lived in Munich, police told a news conference, but his motive is unclear.
Sixteen people were injured, three critically, police added.
A huge manhunt was launched following reports that up to three gunmen had been involved in the attack.
The body of the suspect was found about 1km (0.6 miles) from the Olympia shopping centre in the north-western suburb of Moosach.
Events as they happened
Munich shooting in pictures
Eyewitness accounts
Munich police chief Hubertus Andrae told the news conference early on Saturday that the suspect had not been known to police and there were no known links to terror groups, although investigations were continuing.
The reports of three suspected attackers came when witnesses saw two people leaving the scene in a car "at considerable speed", but they were later confirmed not to be involved, he added.
"The motive or explanation for this crime is completely unclear," he said.
Mr Andrae also said that children were among the casualties, but gave no further details.....
Being German Iranian muddies the waters a little bit with regards to motivations. I'm leaning towards an anti immigrant crazy.
Breotan wrote: I just read that the killer was Iranian. Isn't that unusual for a terrorist?
I think so, yes.
Something about this just seems off. I've called past incidents terrorism right off the bat but this time I'm hesitant because it feels more like a man "going postal" than an actual terror attack. I expect it doesn't really make any difference to the victims but as long as we're playing Monday morning quarterback here I'd like to have better information available.
ZergSmasher wrote: Compare this to perhaps the most core tenet of Christianity, which is to "Love one another". My dad has a book about some of the problems of Islam, if I could remember the title and author I'd cite it here.
Go and read up about the 30 Years War, War of the Three Kingdoms, or any of the other lovely christian religious wars. "Love one and other" was not in evidence when half the population of Ireland was killed. Every religion has its fanatics and dubious dogma, singling out islam is not only disingenuous it is also ignorant and ignorance will only make things worse.
What largely stopped Christian fundamentalism was political stability, this is exactly what is required to prevent Islamic fundamentalism.
This attack does seem to be due to a 'lone wolf' to me at least, although given how connected everyone is these days is it even possible to be a true lone wolf anymore? I'm sure that ISIS will take the credit/blame anyway.
To be honest, the "why" won't change much for the parents and family members who lost their children and loved ones yesterday. If it's islamistic, it's a worrying thing for sure, but was to be expected at some point - the terrorists were focusing France quite a bit, but that never meant Germany was immune to attacks. If it's right-wing, it's rather unheard of in its open violence and the suicide afterwards - our local right-wing extremists try to save their own skin, usually. I'm not sure how well-known the NSU and the court process surrounding them is internationally?
In any case, it might still be more on the "mentally unhinged" side - that seems to be mostly the type to commit suicide by bullet after killing a few people, isn't it?
To be honest, the "why" won't change much for the parents and family members who lost their children and loved ones yesterday. If it's islamistic, it's a worrying thing for sure, but was to be expected at some point - the terrorists were focusing France quite a bit, but that never meant Germany was immune to attacks. If it's right-wing, it's rather unheard of in its open violence and the suicide afterwards - our local right-wing extremists try to save their own skin, usually. I'm not sure how well-known the NSU and the court process surrounding them is internationally?
In any case, it might still be more on the "mentally unhinged" side - that seems to be mostly the type to commit suicide by bullet after killing a few people, isn't it?
Do we have any news on where he got the gun from?
More if Islamist as you said, there target priorities are moving about.
Yes, changes nothing. People still died.
And if right wing. Maybe dangerous they are waking up and another threat to list..
They could be feeding off the fear and using it as fuel.
1. It was only one shooter
2. No conncetion to the whole "refugee" topic as of now
3. Munich will be open to business and tourists again ASAP
Apparently they found evidence in his place rather pointing towards the "Amok" angle than anything with a deeper ideology. Update: No ISIS stuff in his room, but rather lots of articles about previous amok runs in Germany and the police reactions.
Cops in plainclothes apprehended the guy near that parking lot, too. One or more shots were fired at him, but apparently missed, as the obduction report points out. Only one bullet wound, fitting a suicide and his left-handedness.
The attacker was armed with a 9mm Glock with filed-off serial number. The backpack was full of ammunition, over 300 rounds, apparently.
There might be evidence that he had been seeking psychiatric help for a depressive episode earlier in his life. He did not commit any crime previous to this, and was not known to the police for any infractions.
For starters, accept that there is a serious issue with Islam's teachings.
And that is all I'm going to say, because I'm seriously not going to recieve a visit from the police over this like so many others in this fethed up country.
This is the part where I ask how much you actually know about Islam, and how much you just think you know. It's also the part where I point out that you've deflected the question multiple times. You're not doing a very good impression for someone who apparently knows the truth.
I haven't seen that angle come up yet, was it mentioned at a later part of the press conference, or is it a newspaper source?
It was repeatedly mentioned on Sky news.
well news organisations are never going to blame news organisation (as may well be the case if the reports of him collection info on previous spree killers in Germany is true)
I'm glad that our British Dakkanauts were able to restrain themselves from running afoul of their local laws when talking about this non-ISIS connected attack.
d-usa wrote: I'm glad that our British Dakkanauts were able to restrain themselves from running afoul of their local laws when talking about this non-ISIS connected attack.
SemperMortis wrote: Have they officially confirmed this was another misunderstanding between the western world and the Religion of Peace?
You could try reading the thread and realizing that you're railing against Islam in a thread about something that seemingly has nothing to do with Islam at all. A good way of avoiding to come across as a narrow-minded bigot is to not do that.
For starters, accept that there is a serious issue with Islam's teachings.
And that is all I'm going to say, because I'm seriously not going to recieve a visit from the police over this like so many others in this fethed up country.
This is the part where I ask how much you actually know about Islam, and how much you just think you know. It's also the part where I point out that you've deflected the question multiple times. You're not doing a very good impression for someone who apparently knows the truth.
What do I know about Islam?
I've read the Koran. And I was shocked at what is actually in there.
Try surah (chapter) 9 ayat (verse) 29 for starters.
Still lots of speculation on motive. Interior Minister believes this was a lone wolf extremist inspired attack, but not under the direct control of ISIS.
For starters, accept that there is a serious issue with Islam's teachings.
And that is all I'm going to say, because I'm seriously not going to recieve a visit from the police over this like so many others in this fethed up country.
This is the part where I ask how much you actually know about Islam, and how much you just think you know. It's also the part where I point out that you've deflected the question multiple times. You're not doing a very good impression for someone who apparently knows the truth.
What do I know about Islam?
I've read the Koran. And I was shocked at what is actually in there.
Try 9:29 for starters.
Which is where the "interpretation" part comes in. Define "fight", for example. What constitutes "fighting" in 9:29? There's certainly parallels to be drawn to Matthew 28:19 in the Bible, with the whole "convert everyone who doesn't follow Religion X". You could certainly interpret 9:29 as "kill the living daylights out of everyone who isn't Muslim until they yield", but even then it's only one of multiple interpretations. You're, ironically enough, reading the Quran as if you were a hardline islamist, rather than someone interested in possible meanings of the text itself.
The gunman who killed nine people in Munich was obsessed with mass shootings and had an obvious link to Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik, German police say.
His shooting of course having happened 5 years ago, to the day.
The gunman who killed nine people in Munich was obsessed with mass shootings and had an obvious link to Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik, German police say.
His shooting of course having happened 5 years ago, to the day.
Making this an even more dark and dismal affair. (if deliberately planned for this date)
So how would they get unbelievers to pay the jizyah, as commanded by that verse? Jizyah being being protection money that the people of the book (Christians and Jews) are expected to pay to Muslims? Should the believers just keep nagging them for it? Or maybe the believers should keep mooning the unbelievers until their poor eyes can't take it anymore and they cough up the cash? Or maybe the believers should viciously and mercilessly put the unbelievers to the sword until they're defeated and have no choice? What do you think, I ask sarcastically
Now in your attempt to try and show me up, you've just dug yourself into a serious hole. I've said that there is a serious problem with Islam's teachings. And I pointed out a verse that calls for believers to fight unbelievers as an example. And you've just asked how do you interpret what fight means in the context of that verse.
Well a lot of people, including some Islamic scholars, are saying that in the context of that verse, fight literally means fight. Fight and mutilate and kill. And the Koran isn't clear on it wants the believers to do (unless you look at the other verses). So do you want to tell me now that there isn't a problem with Islam's teachings when you've just literally pointed one out yourself?
How about you Gordon Shumway? When I said that there's a serious problem with Islam's teachings you said that that was paranoid bs. How about now?
I'll be happy to talk theology all day any day, having extensively studied it throughout school and university. Bring it.
I personally would like to see a thread on that. We have some intelligent people on here. I believe it would be a good discussion if it could be done politely.
I think we have tried. The combo of anti-Islam prejudice from some people combined with the anti-any-religion prejudice from others, as well as the general problems we have in any thread that revolves around the intersection of politics and religion, usually make them die fairly quickly.
(CNN)The teen gunman who killed nine people in a shooting rampage in Munich on Friday was a mentally troubled individual who had extensively researched spree killings and had no apparent links to ISIS, police said.
Speaking at a press conference in the southern German city Saturday, police officials said the 18-year-old lone attacker -- who died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound -- had no political motivations, and no references to religion had been found in documents in his home.
Rather, investigators searching his belongings found numerous documents on rampage killings, including a book entitled "Rampage in My Mind -- Why Students Kill," said Robert Heimberger, president of the Bavarian State Criminal Police Office.
Police said there was also likely to be significance in the timing of the attack, five years to the day since Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 people in Norway in 2011, many of them attendees at a youth camp.
Rainbow Dash wrote:If I am wrong I will sincerely apologize.
* He was Iranian/German, second/third generation it seems (in the video where some guy shouts abuse in Bavarian at him his german sounds Hochdeutsch with no accent), no idea about religion
* In the same video he complains (as far as I understood it) about being bullied and he sees himself as a German (he says that in the video)
* He seems to have been in psychiatric care for depression (or related issues)
* He was bullied and seems to have blamed foreigners for that (he's of mixed heritage so could look turkish/non-white and draw attention for that from Neonazi donkey-caves)
* In the video he also said that he had to buy a gun for "protection" and was against foreigners coming here
* He grew up in low income housing (Harz 4/Hasenbergl (less affluent neighbourhood here in Munich, higher amount of immigrants, just north of the shopping mall where the shooting happened) was mentioned in that video) so it could be a rougher upbringing
* It seems he used a hacked (or otherwise obtained) account to lure people to a McDonalds there (offering to buy people something)
* he mostly shot young people (if I remember correctly the oldest was 20) of foreign background (could be he lured them there with the McD offer)
* he had some sort of fascination Anders Breivik and, it seems, others like him. I think it was more about mass shootings, no idea about how right wing radicalized he was but it also seems he was at least on not so good terms with foreigners.
The video is a bit confusing (with all the people shouting), so that's just my interpretation.
* He was Iranian/German, second/third generation it seems (in the video where some guy shouts abuse in Bavarian at him his german sounds Hochdeutsch with no accent), no idea about religion
* In the same video he complains (as far as I understood it) about being bullied and he sees himself as a German (he says that in the video)
* He seems to have been in psychiatric care for depression (or related issues)
* He was bullied and seems to have blamed foreigners for that (he's of mixed heritage so could look turkish/non-white and draw attention for that from Neonazi donkey-caves)
* In the video he also said that he had to buy a gun for "protection" and was against foreigners coming here
* He grew up in low income housing (Harz 4/Hasenbergl (less affluent neighbourhood here in Munich, higher amount of immigrants, just north of the shopping mall where the shooting happened) was mentioned in that video) so it could be a rougher upbringing
* It seems he used a hacked (or otherwise obtained) account to lure people to a McDonalds there (offering to buy people something)
* he mostly shot young people (if I remember correctly the oldest was 20) of foreign background (could be he lured them there with the McD offer)
* he had some sort of fascination Anders Breivik and, it seems, others like him. I think it was more about mass shootings, no idea about how right wing radicalized he was but it also seems he was at least on not so good terms with foreigners.
The video is a bit confusing (with all the people shouting), so that's just my interpretation.
Yep, that's pretty much what every news report I've read has to say.
In a very depressing way, it's a bit refreshing to have just a run-of-the-mill crazy person do something like this devoid of political motive, though I understand it make it harder for some people among us to rationalize it because they don't have a group of people to instantly place the blame on. I'm sure this is a very trying time for them.
Killer Ali David Sonbody, 18, launched an attack on adolescents in the fast food branch - killing eight youngsters aged 13 to 20 and one 45-year-old before turning the gun on himself
Killer Ali David Sonbody, 18, launched an attack on adolescents in the fast food branch - killing eight youngsters aged 13 to 20 and one 45-year-old before turning the gun on himself
What a fething piece of filth.
As it seems, he is getting what he wanted - all the media attention that there is, questions about his life, the "Why?"...
If he was really inspired by Breivik, it's actually interesting that he killed himself. Because Breivik is still alive writing pompous pamphlets from prison and can have his smug grin in the news once in a while. This guy will soon be forgotten, hopefully. Maybe his plan had been to stay alive, too, but then he realized what kind of monster he really had become and decided spontaneously to off himself...? We will never know.
PS: The fact that he apparently screamed "I'm German" also fits in here. I guess he wanted to be as sure as possible that this doesn't get filed under run-of-the-mill islamic terrorism, but rather under his "own story", if you know what I mean.
He was born in Germany
He was obsessed with mass shootings - plenty of material on that subject from good old US of A
He wasn't religious
So, can all the bigots please accept that their "repression" for their views is in fact justified because they jumped to a conclusion formed entirely on their own racist hatred.
Spiegel.de reported that the attacker's Glock 17 was a re-activated theater play weapon from Slovakia. Apparently he used the so-called "Darknet" via software like the Tor browser to get into contact with potential sellers.
The German federal criminal bureau is stating that illegal trade with re-activated weapons or prop weapons modified to be working firearms is on the rise.
So we have some clues about how he got a hold of a pistol now, but I'm wondering if he trained on it secretly beforehand or fired it for the first time that day. It sounds like being able to hit so many people, killing quite a few of them, would be the result of at least SOME training on a firearm, but I can hardly imagine there's a spot in Munich or the surrounding area where you can train with an illegal firearm without somebody noticing.
Maybe he practiced with something at least remotely comparable, like a blowback airsoft pistol or something?
Edit: German newspapers also running the "violent computer games" angle now. They interviewed other guys who played CS:GO with him and who agreed that he was a weirdo. Apparently he called himself "Amokläufer" [amok runner?] as a nickname, praised previous shooters in Germany, spouted violent racism against Turks and Jews and was generally a full-on donkey-cave. The interviewee said they were happy when they lost contact to him a while ago.
Its pretty easy to get hits at close range. He could easily have learned to handle the weapon 'dry' and only fired it for the first time on his rampage.
The video of him missing with 3-4 shots outside the MacDonalds seems to suggest that he was quite a poor shot at least.
Silent Puffin? wrote: Its pretty easy to get hits at close range. He could easily have learned to handle the weapon 'dry' and only fired it for the first time on his rampage.
The video of him missing with 3-4 shots outside the MacDonalds seems to suggest that he was quite a poor shot at least.
As a German, I have limited experience with firearms, but some friends in the US were nice enough to take me for a day at the range with Glocks, AKs, AR-15s and .44s. I think somebody who has never felt the real recoil of a gun (especially a pistol) before would necessarily be quite a bad shot in such a high-adrenaline situation, but he managed to cause quite some damage.
As a German, I have limited experience with firearms, but some friends in the US were nice enough to take me for a day at the range with Glocks, AKs, AR-15s and .44s. I think somebody who has never felt the real recoil of a gun (especially a pistol) before would necessarily be quite a bad shot in such a high-adrenaline situation, but he managed to cause quite some damage.
Witzkatz wrote: As a German, I have limited experience with firearms, but some friends in the US were nice enough to take me for a day at the range with Glocks, AKs, AR-15s and .44s. I think somebody who has never felt the real recoil of a gun (especially a pistol) before would necessarily be quite a bad shot in such a high-adrenaline situation, but he managed to cause quite some damage.
The recoil on a Glock 17 is entirely manageable, even for a novice shooter. The Glock 17 has a magazine capacity of 17 rounds so with a couple of magazines and a little determination, a novice shooter can deal significant carnage in a close-range environment.
Witzkatz wrote: As a German, I have limited experience with firearms, but some friends in the US were nice enough to take me for a day at the range with Glocks, AKs, AR-15s and .44s. I think somebody who has never felt the real recoil of a gun (especially a pistol) before would necessarily be quite a bad shot in such a high-adrenaline situation, but he managed to cause quite some damage.
The recoil on a Glock 17 is entirely manageable, even for a novice shooter. The Glock 17 has a magazine capacity of 17 rounds so with a couple of magazines and a little determination, a novice shooter can deal significant carnage in a close-range environment.
I shot a few magazines with a Glock .40 S&W and found it surprisingly hard to hit anything beyond 30 feet with some kind of accuracy. But I have to agree with you and Silent Puffin in the end, at very close range and that many rounds, it's rather easy to hit surprised victims, I guess.
I find it interesting how the intial angle on this whole thing was "islamistic terrorism", but lots of people, also on this board, had some gut feeling that something was different, and were right in the end. Overall I find it worrying that this could be a first step towards open anti-immgration terror; that seemed to be at least a partial motivation for this guy's violence, somewhere next to his anxiety and depression and probable sociopathic tendencies. Some of the more openly aggressive anti-immigration groups, including Neo-Nazis, might feel that their time is coming now.
Witzkatz wrote: I shot a few magazines with a Glock .40 S&W and found it surprisingly hard to hit anything beyond 30 feet with some kind of accuracy.
For what it's worth, Glock 17 is 9mm, which is very mild recoil. My wife likes to shoot the 9, and she has small hands and less shooting experience. .40 S&W on the other hand, *I* find to be an unpleasant round to shoot. It would definitely not be my recommendation for a novice shooter* - it's typically found in lightweight guns which only amplifies it's already snappy recoil.
*or really any shooter, when the best handgun in the world already exists and it is a 1911 in .45 acp, amirite
Witzkatz wrote: I shot a few magazines with a Glock .40 S&W and found it surprisingly hard to hit anything beyond 30 feet with some kind of accuracy.
For what it's worth, Glock 17 is 9mm, which is very mild recoil. My wife likes to shoot the 9, and she has small hands and less shooting experience. .40 S&W on the other hand, *I* find to be an unpleasant round to shoot. It would definitely not be my recommendation for a novice shooter* - it's typically found in lightweight guns which only amplifies it's already snappy recoil.
*or really any shooter, when the best handgun in the world already exists and it is a 1911 in .45 acp, amirite
Thanks for the input, I was under the impression 9mm and .40S&W might be somewhat comparable in recoil, but again, I don't have that much live-fire experience.
There is talk about even stricter gun control measures in German politics...though I highly doubt that will do any good about re-activated Slovakian theater props, to be frank.
Witzkatz wrote: I shot a few magazines with a Glock .40 S&W and found it surprisingly hard to hit anything beyond 30 feet with some kind of accuracy.
For what it's worth, Glock 17 is 9mm, which is very mild recoil. My wife likes to shoot the 9, and she has small hands and less shooting experience. .40 S&W on the other hand, *I* find to be an unpleasant round to shoot. It would definitely not be my recommendation for a novice shooter* - it's typically found in lightweight guns which only amplifies it's already snappy recoil.
*or really any shooter, when the best handgun in the world already exists and it is a 1911 in .45 acp, amirite
Thanks for the input, I was under the impression 9mm and .40S&W might be somewhat comparable in recoil, but again, I don't have that much live-fire experience.
Witzkatz wrote: I shot a few magazines with a Glock .40 S&W and found it surprisingly hard to hit anything beyond 30 feet with some kind of accuracy.
For what it's worth, Glock 17 is 9mm, which is very mild recoil. My wife likes to shoot the 9, and she has small hands and less shooting experience. .40 S&W on the other hand, *I* find to be an unpleasant round to shoot. It would definitely not be my recommendation for a novice shooter* - it's typically found in lightweight guns which only amplifies it's already snappy recoil.
*or really any shooter, when the best handgun in the world already exists and it is a 1911 in .45 acp, amirite
The .40 seems to be a round that came into favour after the FBI adopted it (and they just recently made the switch back to 9mm), and also after it found it's way into popular culture through rap music also. It has more recoil than the 9mm, marginally more ammo than the .45, but it does have a flatter trajectory making it better for longer ranged shots.
Here is a 10mm taking a longer range shot (the 10mm is similar to the .40, as it is the round the .40 was based off)
Going back to the 9mm this is what I managed at the range yesterday. 58 rounds from four magazines (2x 12 round, 2x 17 round), all shot from a 3.5 inch S&W9C. Rounds were a mix of Fiocchi and Federal 115 gram
21 foot
Anything about gun control is a distraction from useless politicians who want to be seen as "active". IMO.
The was no chance to aquire that gun legally.
The next step will be to point at the "violent games" and blame something our politicians don't understand. Like many older people, as one may have noticed at the official statements of the police today.
I'd hope more time lost with "hot air" does stop. The evening filled by media which reported they had nothing really to say but still said a lot, yes i think its a good idea our police is going to take a look at what was reported and that false alarms may have consequences.
As far as I know, the theme is now :
- Erfurt / Winnenden shootings.
And the latest report said he wrote a "manifest".
So I am going to wait and see.
The truth of the matter is that there is very little you can do politically to prevent attacks like this. Our nations have already sacrificed so much personal liberty to combat organised terrorism - but to foresee and prevent a troubled individual conducting a random shooting would require totalitarianism.
Sturmtruppen wrote: The truth of the matter is that there is very little you can do politically to prevent attacks like this. Our nations have already sacrificed so much personal liberty to combat organised terrorism - but to foresee and prevent a troubled individual conducting a random shooting would require totalitarianism.
And even then, even Hitler couldn't stop a bomb literally blowing up in his face.
1hadhq wrote: Anything about gun control is a distraction from useless politicians who want to be seen as "active". IMO.
The was no chance to aquire that gun legally.
The next step will be to point at the "violent games" and blame something our politicians don't understand. Like many older people, as one may have noticed at the official statements of the police today.
I'd hope more time lost with "hot air" does stop. The evening filled by media which reported they had nothing really to say but still said a lot, yes i think its a good idea our police is going to take a look at what was reported and that false alarms may have consequences.
Yup, violent games are being blamed again (my guess is it won't be as big as it used to be a decade or two ago). The problem is that social services are slowly being eroded (including psychological help for people like him). Some politician even wanted to deploy the army in Munich and some want to hire more cops instead of looking in preventive measures and support for troubled people. :/
One witness says he specifically yelled he is German, while the other says that he yelled Allah Akbar. Why are people completely ignoring half of the eyewitness testimony?
NuggzTheNinja wrote: One witness says he specifically yelled he is German, while the other says that he yelled Allah Akbar. Why are people completely ignoring half of the eyewitness testimony?
because it helps them with their narrative they are trying to push. Remember when Obama said the Fort Hood shooting was Workplace violence LMAO.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Except there's video of him yelling about being German. Also, he was German. And also he extensively researched mass shootings.
But let's ignore all of that because some unverified account claims he shouted something because... Narrative and Obama!
The video that doesn't show the shooting? that one? or one that I am not aware of? I am asking because there might be new evidence I dont know about because I don't follow every Muslim mass murder of westerners, if I did I would never be able to leave the computer.
As far as the unverified account? Well again, does the video show the shooting or events that led up to it? if the former then that is good enough for me, if the latter? well then that is basically useless since we don't know what he actually said DURING the attack.
I guess some guy on the Internet knows more than what German police have found and shared with the world. You should grab your red phone and call Merkel to share your extensive knowledge of the situation, I'm sure the German people would appreciate your deep insight.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: I guess some guy on the Internet knows more than what German police have found and shared with the world. You should grab your red phone and call Merkel to share your extensive knowledge of the situation, I'm sure the German people would appreciate your deep insight.
You're completely ignoring the fact that German government has been caught trying to suppress police reports in the past.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: One witness says he specifically yelled he is German, while the other says that he yelled Allah Akbar. Why are people completely ignoring half of the eyewitness testimony?
Because the evidence so far makes it far more likely that he was a lone wolf obsessed with mass murderers rather than an Islamic extremist, which makes the former account more likely to be the correct one...?
NuggzTheNinja wrote: One witness says he specifically yelled he is German, while the other says that he yelled Allah Akbar. Why are people completely ignoring half of the eyewitness testimony?
Because the evidence so far makes it far more likely that he was a lone wolf obsessed with mass murderers rather than an Islamic extremist, which makes the former account more likely to be the correct one...?
Doesn't lessen the value of the witnesses statement. Just because he was a nut job didn't mean he wasn't partially radicalized by his faith. pretty easy these days since we can't say Muslim/Islamic terrorism without someone getting #triggered
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ScootyPuffJunior wrote: I guess some guy on the Internet knows more than what German police have found and shared with the world. You should grab your red phone and call Merkel to share your extensive knowledge of the situation, I'm sure the German people would appreciate your deep insight.
Beyond your snarky remark do you have anything to add other then "I don't agree so...Snarky comment" ? I mean honestly I am not saying he was another shining Pillar of religion of peace, I am merely pointing out that there is a chance that he was in fact a proud member of the religion of peace.
Doesn't lessen the value of the witnesses statement.
Sure it does. The absence of any other evidence of a religious link makes it far more likely that this particular witness either misheard or made it up.
Doesn't lessen the value of the witnesses statement.
Sure it does. The absence of any other evidence of a religious link makes it far more likely that this particular witness either misheard or made it up.
actually it makes it one witness statement vs another because as I pointed out before, unless that video was shot DURING the attack it is useless.
Is there even a single article mentioning his faith directly? Iranians are officially Muslim to 99,4%, but there might be a reason why his parents chose to move countries.
Witzkatz wrote: Is there even a single article mentioning his faith directly? Iranians are officially Muslim to 99,4%, but there might be a reason why his parents chose to move countries.
Nope. If anything his middle name being David might point at him being Jewish, as David is very uncommon spelling of the name for muslims (it should be Dawood).
And now Germany has suffered a suicide bombing from a rejected refugee, but thankfully only the bomber was killed. For the moment anyway. That's, what...three attacks in the space of a week?
There are going to be some serious repercussions somewhere done the line. I feel like it's only a matter of time.
Future War Cultist wrote: And now Germany has suffered a suicide bombing from a rejected refugee, but thankfully only the bomber was killed. For the moment anyway. That's, what...three attacks in the space of a week?
There are going to be some serious repercussions somewhere done the line. I feel like it's only a matter of time.
Well, this is the second attack with strong links to islamic extremism that you're talking about - the suicide bomb and the axe attack in the train. The Munich shooter hasn't been linked in any way to islamic extremism so far, rather the opposite - anti-immigrant nationalism, if you read the articles about his online behavior.
Whether or not the machete-swinging guy can be linked to actual extremism or "just" a violent outlash has to be seen yet. I think newspapers are still reporting that he's in no condition to be interrogated yet.
Future War Cultist wrote: And now Germany has suffered a suicide bombing from a rejected refugee, but thankfully only the bomber was killed. For the moment anyway. That's, what...three attacks in the space of a week?
There are going to be some serious repercussions somewhere done the line. I feel like it's only a matter of time.
Four. The Axe attack by the Pakistani (who said he was an Afghan) on the train seem conveniently forgotten.
We're not going down the "if only they had killed someone" alley, that's not appropriate. If you can't discuss this topic without resorting to that sort of rhetoric, then don't discuss this topic
NuggzTheNinja wrote: One witness says he specifically yelled he is German, while the other says that he yelled Allah Akbar. Why are people completely ignoring half of the eyewitness testimony?
Because the evidence so far makes it far more likely that he was a lone wolf obsessed with mass murderers rather than an Islamic extremist, which makes the former account more likely to be the correct one...?
A conclusion borne out of intentionally ignoring half of the evidence. As SM said the video doesn't cover the time point being discussed.
What's next - the suicide bomber wasn't a Muslim terrorist, he was just obsessed with suicide bombings?
Oh... And guess what... You are the only one ignoring evidence. It is sad how an anti-immigration nationalism can commit mass murder and also get the immigrants to be blamed for their own deaths because of people like you trying to continue to promote false agendas in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
And in this latest bombing, it seems like he was a refugee trying to seek asylum who was being deported... And the Machette attack appeared to be a 'crime of passion'. None of the 3 seem to be Islamic terrorism but have roots in political issues going on in Germany right now.
Spiegel.de is reporting that they found a video of the suicide bomber on his own smartphone where he talks about "getting revenge" for "Germany killing muslims", and he's referencing ISIS there, apparently. They found bomb-building tools and a comparably large amount of money in his single-room apartment in the refugee building where he was living until recently. Also there was a laptop and several phones with videos of islamistic acts of violence.
Apparently the German government sent him a notice to leave Germany in the next 30 days for Bulgaria, where he was under refugee status, after not being granted full asylum here. One of the reasons he wasn't "booted out" earlier was that physicians attested him poor mental health and psychic lability, which was apparently enough to not deem him travelworthy.
This one is textbook islamistic terrorism right now. The Munich guy, however, looks less and less like it.
. It is sad how an anti-immigration nationalism can commit mass murder and also get the immigrants to be blamed for their own deaths
Please don't forge such a silly narrative.
There is no anti-immigration nationalism involved here.
And in this latest bombing, it seems like he was a refugee trying to seek asylum who was being deported... And the Machette attack appeared to be a 'crime of passion'. None of the 3 seem to be Islamic terrorism but have roots in political issues going on in Germany right now.
Würzburg ( Train / pakistani vs hongkong chinese family ) is confirmed officially as terrorism.
Munich OEZ ( Iran vs the world ) is confirmed as amok / something like Erfurt and Winnenden ( and I am sure you can find events like this in the USA too )
Reutlingen ( Syrian vs coworker and everybody else ) as a "crime of passion"------ sorry I don't buy that much "passion" as a motive. First attack = yes , anything else = no .
Ansbach ( Syrian bomb ) is confirmed as terrorism.
The roots of 3 of 4 are not in Germany.
But yes we have the political issue of attempts to whitewash things , usually up there in the middle and north of our country. These events in the south will get fair treatment.
. It is sad how an anti-immigration nationalism can commit mass murder and also get the immigrants to be blamed for their own deaths
Please don't forge such a silly narrative.
There is no anti-immigration nationalism involved here.
So all of the evidence which shows he was researching white supremacists, 'inspired by far-right terrorist Anders Breivik', targeted 'immigrants', That he wasn't religious and did not practice Islam, yelled negative things about immigrants during his shooting on camera, and claimed to be 'german born'.
And there is no anti-immigration involvement... ? Except for close to 100% of the evidence which said it was? Because you say it is Islam because 'reasons'?
CptJake wrote: Of note, he did not target immigrants. That hurts the point you are trying to make quite a bit.
It seems more like he was sick of being treated as an immigrant. I think you are severely misconstruing the available info.
The majority of his victims have an immigrant background. It's unclear whether he specifically targeted them for that reason or for others, or if it was a coincidence. Some spokesman on the Munich police said immigrants are very prevalent in this area of town, so both are viable variants.
CptJake wrote: Of note, he did not target immigrants. That hurts the point you are trying to make quite a bit.
It seems more like he was sick of being treated as an immigrant. I think you are severely misconstruing the available info.
Well they keep promoting the ethnicity of the victims which do not seem to be german-born citizens and there reports of him targeting kids and immigrants. And Anders Breivik basically shows that he is on the 'anti-Islamic, anti-feminism' path if that is what believing in (since the date was an anniversary and the stuff at his residence showed that)
Being a secret Islamic terrorist or sympathizer which has virtually zero evidence at the moment where the issues with immigration, supremacy and mass shootings are all very documented so far.
CptJake wrote: Of note, he did not target immigrants. That hurts the point you are trying to make quite a bit.
It seems more like he was sick of being treated as an immigrant. I think you are severely misconstruing the available info.
The majority of his victims have an immigrant background. It's unclear whether he specifically targeted them for that reason or for others, or if it was a coincidence. Some spokesman on the Munich police said immigrants are very prevalent in this area of town, so both are viable variants.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: One witness says he specifically yelled he is German, while the other says that he yelled Allah Akbar. Why are people completely ignoring half of the eyewitness testimony?
Because the evidence so far makes it far more likely that he was a lone wolf obsessed with mass murderers rather than an Islamic extremist, which makes the former account more likely to be the correct one...?
The smart thing to do when faced with conflicting evidence would be to wait for more information. Take that as you will.
. It is sad how an anti-immigration nationalism can commit mass murder and also get the immigrants to be blamed for their own deaths
Please don't forge such a silly narrative.
There is no anti-immigration nationalism involved here.
So all of the evidence which shows he was researching white supremacists, 'inspired by far-right terrorist Anders Breivik', targeted 'immigrants', That he wasn't religious and did not practice Islam, yelled negative things about immigrants during his shooting on camera, and claimed to be 'german born'.
And there is no anti-immigration involvement... ? Except for close to 100% of the evidence which said it was? Because you say it is Islam because 'reasons'?
And you evidence is?
Some early reports , maybe even translated ones ?
You do realize where his parents are from?
This isn't Persia vs the Ottomans.
Uhm, the German newspapers I'm reading are all reporting about his online behavior and talks with "friends", lots of that involving hate of Turks, especially. Spiegel.de has quite a bit on that.
d-usa wrote: It's not hard to imagine a second or third generation immigrant who is a native of the country to have anti-immigrant feelings.
"Feth these immigrants, they are the reason people give me gak for looking brown even though I am German!"
I read (don't have time to find the links) he felt bullied at school by some Turks/Kosovar immigrants. I was wondering if it was because he came from a Shia background and Turks and Kosavars would generally by Sunni. Not that they were using religious arguments to bully but was thinking the typical dislike between the two could have been a factor as to why he was bullied (or at least perceived he was being bullied). Of course it could be any factor/combination of factors. Maybe he had big ears or his mama dressed him funny.
LMAO.
