When they are clearly the most broken army in the game? ESP with this new incursion crap.

Just faced an army when literally everything had what amounted to 2+ reroll invo saves. Through a combination of broken warlord traits and items from the stupid wolfen book. Then top it all off with the warp-storm table getting a choice of +1 or -1 to the result...plus fate-weaver...Just forget it. This game is so broken I might never play it again. The combinations this army puts out should not be possible. Anyone that can do simple math can prove this kind of durability isn't feasibly overcome with weapons in this game. So essentially - you pick up models until you run out and you lose.

Thanks GW....this is just what daemons needed - a massive buff!

Looks like someone has been salted by daemons. Would you please share their list?

 Xenomancers wrote:
When they are clearly the most broken army in the game? ESP with this new incursion crap.

Just faced an army when literally everything had what amounted to 2+ reroll invo saves. Through a combination of broken warlord traits and items from the stupid wolfen book. Then top it all off with the warp-storm table getting a choice of +1 or -1 to the result...plus fate-weaver...Just forget it. This game is so broken I might never play it again. The combinations this army puts out should not be possible. Anyone that can do simple math can prove this kind of durability isn't feasibly overcome with weapons in this game. So essentially - you pick up models until you run out and you lose.

Thanks GW....this is just what daemons needed - a massive buff!

Outside of Tzeentch shenanigans, standard Daemons aren't that great. Sure, they have cool toys, but they can get really screwed over by the Warp table. The Wolfen book has some really nice stuff, but some of it's kinda (Soulgrinder) formation. In short, Daemons can be really good, but it's only through spamming stuff.

Salty much? What where you playing?

You know there are things that can just remove a 300+ point daemon from play right?

Someone has a very different idea of the most broken army to me.

Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

Marine weapons can't melt anything in the game.

Marines are 100% dependent upon invisibility for durability vs Xeno shooting.

The other option is a swarm list that puts out more models than can be reasonably destroyed in one game.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

2++? They can get a 2+ cover save, or various other shenanigans, but only Daemons can get the infamous 2++. As to other points, Tau can certainly stand up to Marines, They frequently place in the Top 20. SM and Eldar are just seen as better options, so that's why they place higher. Number of players > OPness of army.


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 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Thank you. Daemons can punk a lot of low AP and Grav armies, but they're not the be all end all OP is claiming they are.

Wait, Daemons got something useful in that Wulfen book ?

I saw Space Wolves on the cover and just moved on.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

2++? They can get a 2+ cover save, or various other shenanigans, but only Daemons can get the infamous 2++. As to other points, Tau can certainly stand up to Marines, They frequently place in the Top 20. SM and Eldar are just seen as better options, so that's why they place higher. Number of players > OPness of army.


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 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Thank you. Daemons can punk a lot of low AP and Grav armies, but they're not the be all end all OP is claiming they are.

Huh, I could have sworn spess mureens had access to storm sheilds. I must have been playing against a cheater, sorry about that, my bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Marine weapons can't melt anything in the game.

Marines are 100% dependent upon invisibility for durability vs Xeno shooting.

The other option is a swarm list that puts out more models than can be reasonably destroyed in one game.

They can get loads of melta for anti tank, can droppod grav and melt any high armour save unit and now thanks to the update one of the, if not the best and most broken magic phase in the game. They most certainly can melt basically anything in the game.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

I don't disagree that Marines "can" stomp Tau & Eldar, but the prevailing opinion (or at least the most vocal one) seems to suggest that Marines have a hard time against the other 2. Afterall, they don't have Riptides, WKs and Scatterbikes. In either case, Daemons can only staomp any of the above with "luck"

And yes, SM can get Strom Shields....on crap Terminators. And a Librarian could roll Scatuary to turn that into a 2++....but will Perils on any double. It's possible, but hardly OP as long as you kow the rules and call out your opponent.

--

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

I don't disagree that Marines "can" stomp Tau & Eldar, but the prevailing opinion (or at least the most vocal one) seems to suggest that Marines have a hard time against the other 2. Afterall, they don't have Riptides, WKs and Scatterbikes. In either case, Daemons can only staomp any of the above with "luck"

They are most vocal because they have a massive playerbase, and most people don't like to admit that their army is top tier. Instead of riptides and the like, they just have units that can wipe out entire 2+ armour squads in one shot, best mage phase in the game, good base armour, ridiculous amounts of variety to combat any army they fight, and best ally matrix in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

I don't disagree that Marines "can" stomp Tau & Eldar, but the prevailing opinion (or at least the most vocal one) seems to suggest that Marines have a hard time against the other 2. Afterall, they don't have Riptides, WKs and Scatterbikes. In either case, Daemons can only staomp any of the above with "luck"

And yes, SM can get Strom Shields....on crap Terminators. And a Librarian could roll Scatuary to turn that into a 2++....but will Perils on any double. It's possible, but hardly OP as long as you kow the rules and call out your opponent.

--

Doest the space marines have a formation where they get to pick their powers and cast on a 2+ or am I misremembering people bitching awhile ago.

Pretty sure Space Marines have a way to get 2+ FnP as well.

I think the biggest issue with Daemons, specifically as viewed by Marine players, is that most of the Marines strengths become useless. Grav, Plasma and Melta are the bread-n-butter of most Marine lists, yet Daemons have invul saves and don't care much about Ap2 weapons or ones that wound on Armour. Daemons are also more mobile than Marines

This makes them a rather good counter to Space Marines, yet against Scatter laser spam, Tau Missile Spam, with highly maneuverable units, Daemons struggle against Eldar and Tau.
This probably adds to the perception that Daemons are OP to a Marine player, since Marines have a much easier time against Tau & Eldar than against Daemons

This is basically why Daemons fly under the Radar. They can't really compete in the same Tier as Eldar and Tau, despite the fact that they seem tailor-made to destroy Marines.

-

Isn't that basically every belligerent marine player's reaction to other armies?

"I can't win easily therefore it must be broken because marines are the best!"

As for the OP, it sounds like you faced the Screamer Star. Note that it's nowhere near as easy as you make it sound; it requires you to fish for one of two specific powers and pray to the dice gods that you can keep that spell up as well as the Grimoire going. If you face someone with, say, a mono nurgle list, you'd have a completely different result. Alternatively it could have been a LoC or Prince with the Impossible Robe being buffed by a Grimoire, but that is a huge investment of points and you could still drown it in wounds (because, unlike the screamer star, it does not have abalative wounds in the form of Screamers that still possess the same save).

MWh ha ha ha. So you got kriumped hard while playing marines, yup this got to be the result of a flaw in the game. Quick write a letter to get how daemons need a good nerf.

You might even sign with the PostScript.

Nerf paper, scissor are fine. Kind regards rock

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Not even close. Space Marine Deathstars are now the most powerful build in the game and slaughtering Eldar left right and center thanks to the new OP psychic powers given to them and allies shenanigans. Ever since the insane Space Marine power creep set in they have been dominating tournaments everywhere and they were always in the top 5 best armies at #3. The one army that definitely didn't need buffing. Now #1.

http://variancehammer.com/2016/06/08/whats-wrong-with-the-tau/

 Galef wrote:
I think the biggest issue with Daemons, specifically as viewed by Marine players, is that most of the Marines strengths become useless. Grav, Plasma and Melta are the bread-n-butter of most Marine lists, yet Daemons have invul saves and don't care much about Ap2 weapons or ones that wound on Armour. Daemons are also more mobile than Marines

This makes them a rather good counter to Space Marines, yet against Scatter laser spam, Tau Missile Spam, with highly maneuverable units, Daemons struggle against Eldar and Tau.
This probably adds to the perception that Daemons are OP to a Marine player, since Marines have a much easier time against Tau & Eldar than against Daemons

This is basically why Daemons fly under the Radar. They can't really compete in the same Tier as Eldar and Tau, despite the fact that they seem tailor-made to destroy Marines.

-

I'll say there is definitely something here with this line of thought. Not that they re tailor made to defeat marines, but that through virtue of Daemonic saves, they are tougher to kill than Space Marines are used to.

Marines love to fight MEQs. Lower model counts, and they have enough low AP weapons and volume of fire to crack them open.
Marines love fighting hordes. High enough volume of fire and t shirt saves alow them to chew through them quickly enough.

Marines don't like Daemons. MC's can crack open power armor. The whole army ignores 1/3 of the wounds against it, and you can't count on bolter AP to chew through the hordes, like it does with orks and tryanids. Not to mention that a Tzeentch army is probably going to dominate the Psychic phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:
When they are clearly the most broken army in the game? ESP with this new incursion crap.

Just faced an army when literally everything had what amounted to 2+ reroll invo saves. Through a combination of broken warlord traits and items from the stupid wolfen book. Then top it all off with the warp-storm table getting a choice of +1 or -1 to the result...plus fate-weaver...Just forget it. This game is so broken I might never play it again. The combinations this army puts out should not be possible. Anyone that can do simple math can prove this kind of durability isn't feasibly overcome with weapons in this game. So essentially - you pick up models until you run out and you lose.

Thanks GW....this is just what daemons needed - a massive buff!

I know tzeench daemons like the back of my hand and you are either using hyperbole or have been cheated as for an enemy to have 2+ re-rollable on the whole army and the daemonic incursion rules is impossible, this is in part due to:

A) Cursed earth isnt stackable (see the clarification in the new errata on the GW facebook) which means only 1 unit can acheive a 2+ rerollable invulnerability save from grimoire and cursed earth while other units will only get 4+ not including warlord trait modifiers that push it up to 3+ or the impossible robe that bumps a single models save to 2+.

B) Shrouded and other cover save modifiers are the only other options for a 2+ re-rollable which does not extend to units other than screamers, exalted chariots (not including greater daemons who can fly) this cover save is in part to jink and requires a caster with telepathy. These units alone cannot be fielded with the daemonic incursion rules and the whole army having a 2+ re-rollable as that would have to include other units other than screamers and chariots. Also casters other than fateweaver that can cast shrouded are fairly vunerable without the 2+ rerolls making it a difficult army to run as the caster will get focussed and killed. It is also impossible (without unbound) to take these units and fateweaver alone, let alone with daemonic incursion rules. Heck even CAD its impossible.

So which was it, were you cheated or was it hyperbole

Actually it is possible but it requires extreme levels of luck to pull off.

You need Cursed Earth, and prefereabley multiples of it. (Likely to get at least 1 with the 9 units of Pink Horrors required for the Warpflame Host)
You need to roll Warp Surge on the Warp Storm Table. (Which as part of the Daemonic Host can happen on a 9, 10 or 11)
Your Warlord needs to roll the Warp Tether result on the Tzeentch Warlord Table.

If every unit is within 9" of your Warlord, you get (and get off) enough Cursed Earths to cover everything AND if you roll a 9/10/11 of the Warp Storm Chart, everything gets a 2++ rerollable.

I was playing a very strong gladius list. I was tabled in 3 turns because I couldn't kill or tie up anything. 3000 points.

He had a tetred
fateweaver
A flying tzeench daemon
A max screamer star with 2 heralds
3 squads of pink horrors with a herald and 2 exalted flamers in each
and an exalted flamer chariot

herald in scremer star has a book giving them +2 to their invo save. His warlord had a warlord train granting a 12" +1 invo bubble. When combined with cursed earth it produces a +2 inv bubble. At the very worst daemons have a 3++ in this bubble AND when they have impossible robes or have a natural 4+ they are 2++ saves. for a tzeench daemon that is a 2++ reroll. It was totally insane. Really - can't be beaten without D weapons - and even that is a long shot.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Actually it is possible but it requires extreme levels of luck to pull off.

You need Cursed Earth, and prefereabley multiples of it. (Likely to get at least 1 with the 9 units of Pink Horrors required for the Warpflame Host)
You need to roll Warp Surge on the Warp Storm Table. (Which as part of the Daemonic Host can happen on a 9, 10 or 11)
Your Warlord needs to roll the Warp Tether result on the Tzeentch Warlord Table.

If every unit is within 9" of your Warlord, you get (and get off) enough Cursed Earths to cover everything AND if you roll a 9/10/11 of the Warp Storm Chart, everything gets a 2++ rerollable.

You cant stack multiples of cursed earth - if you dont believe me check the FAQ

 Xenomancers wrote:
I was playing a very strong gladius list. I was tabled in 3 turns because I couldn't kill or tie up anything. 3000 points.

He had a tetred
fateweaver
A flying tzeench daemon
A max screamer star with 2 heralds
3 squads of pink horrors with a herald and 2 exalted flamers in each
and an exalted flamer chariot

herald in scremer star has a book giving them +2 to their invo save. His warlord had a warlord train granting a 12" +1 invo bubble. When combined with cursed earth it produces a +2 inv bubble. At the very worst daemons have a 3++ in this bubble AND when they have impossible robes or have a natural 4+ they are 2++ saves. for a tzeench daemon that is a 2++ reroll. It was totally insane. Really - can't be beaten without D weapons - and even that is a long shot.

Ah but that isn't a daemonic incursion list

 Galef wrote:
I think the biggest issue with Daemons, specifically as viewed by Marine players, is that most of the Marines strengths become useless. Grav, Plasma and Melta are the bread-n-butter of most Marine lists, yet Daemons have invul saves and don't care much about Ap2 weapons or ones that wound on Armour. Daemons are also more mobile than Marines

This makes them a rather good counter to Space Marines, yet against Scatter laser spam, Tau Missile Spam, with highly maneuverable units, Daemons struggle against Eldar and Tau.
This probably adds to the perception that Daemons are OP to a Marine player, since Marines have a much easier time against Tau & Eldar than against Daemons

This is basically why Daemons fly under the Radar. They can't really compete in the same Tier as Eldar and Tau, despite the fact that they seem tailor-made to destroy Marines.

-

I'm really not sure how eldar or tau stand a better chance against this ether. It's not like this army can't reach out and kill things like a wraith-knight or a stormsurge. Riptides are totally impotent against daemons too. Eldar can bring a lot of ranged D so they probably bring the best against daemon in the long run.

@Reavas: You aren't stacking Cursed Earth though, the preferred multiples of it is to make sure you can cover every model.

Cursed Earth gives +1.
Warp Surge gives +1.
Warp Tether gives +1.

As others have noted, Daemons are an army with a high brokenness potential, but also have lots of total garbage and huge random/variability issues. When everything is going right for them, no amount of generalship will save you, they can simply overrun everything. At the same time, most of the army is mediocre and when their rolls go wrong they totally fall apart

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@Reavas: You aren't stacking Cursed Earth though, the preferred multiples of it is to make sure you can cover every model.

Cursed Earth gives +1.
Warp Surge gives +1.
Warp Tether gives +1.

That combination is nearly literally impossible to get off, warp surge being a 1/6 chance on perils per unit (have fun getting that off on all your pink horrors) warp tether and cursed earth are both very hard to roll for, the warlord trait being another 1/6 chance. Look if someone manages to peril on all psyker units AND roll 6's on every one, as well as roll the warlord trait and roll for cursed earth and manifest it then you might want to be careful because your probably playing against a Lord of Change

As far as I know only Fateweaver has a natural 4++, everyone else (including GDs) have to deal with a 5++ now. Also the Warlord trait is 9", not 12. This limits the entirety of the bubble to 18" in diameter and only around the Warlord (otherwise it's two overlapping bubbles)

By the sounds of it his list consisted of:

Warpflame Host
Burning Skyhost
Tetrad
2 Daemon Lord choices (Fateweaver and what sounds like another Lord of Change)

Also, at 3000 points, most people would be expecting Titans and whatnot to be appearing, which means actually a lot of D Weapons. And if any portion of this army fell, the entire thing crumbles since it requires a lot of interlocking pieces.

Also Matt wasn't implying you'd stack Cursed Earths, but rather have multiples of them to cover more of the battlefield so other booster effects can be used. Even without other effects, Cursed Earth basically grants a 4++ to any daemon within it's reach, which is very good.

Basically your opponent had the stars align for them. If I were to go up against someone who rolled 6's for every one of their non-psychic dice and had a Fearless army, I'd be tabled too.

EDIT: I somehow got ninja'd by Matt!

Reavas wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@Reavas: You aren't stacking Cursed Earth though, the preferred multiples of it is to make sure you can cover every model.

Cursed Earth gives +1.
Warp Surge gives +1.
Warp Tether gives +1.

That combination is nearly literally impossible to get off, warp surge being a 1/6 chance on perils per unit (have fun getting that off on all your pink horrors) warp tether and cursed earth are both very hard to roll for, the warlord trait being another 1/6 chance. Look if someone manages to peril on all psyker units AND roll 6's on every one, as well as roll the warlord trait and roll for cursed earth and manifest it then you might want to be careful because your probably playing against a Lord of Change

As I said, it requires extreme luck to pull off.

I never said it was an easy or assured thing, just that it is possible.


Also Warp Surge a result on the Warp Storm Chart.. not sure what you're thinking of. EDIT: Oh wait you're thinking of that same-named result on the Perils table.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Reavas wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@Reavas: You aren't stacking Cursed Earth though, the preferred multiples of it is to make sure you can cover every model.

Cursed Earth gives +1.
Warp Surge gives +1.
Warp Tether gives +1.

That combination is nearly literally impossible to get off, warp surge being a 1/6 chance on perils per unit (have fun getting that off on all your pink horrors) warp tether and cursed earth are both very hard to roll for, the warlord trait being another 1/6 chance. Look if someone manages to peril on all psyker units AND roll 6's on every one, as well as roll the warlord trait and roll for cursed earth and manifest it then you might want to be careful because your probably playing against a Lord of Change

As I said, it requires extreme luck to pull off.

I never said it was an easy or assured thing, just that it is possible.


Also Warp Surge a result on the Warp Storm Chart.. not sure what you're thinking of.

Warp surge is also a result from perils of the warp, my bad, but yeah both are hard to get off and you are right that it is possible and when it does happen tzeench have mercy on your soul

It is important to note though that a lot of players unfamiliar with how cursed earth works and attempt to stack it. Just letting OP know, as 3+'s are rough enough without another +1

 Xenomancers wrote:


I was playing a very strong gladius list. I was tabled in 3 turns because I couldn't kill or tie up anything. 3000 points.

He had a tetred
fateweaver
A flying tzeench daemon
A max screamer star with 2 heralds
3 squads of pink horrors with a herald and 2 exalted flamers in each
and an exalted flamer chariot

Stop complaining. You are clearly playing in the maxed out OP list league That game type is about crushing your opponent expect no mercy and enjoy the risk to be tabled, but don't cry if it isn't "balanced" we all know that it isn't for ages now . You brought the predictable marine thing and the daemon player brought the predictable daemon thing nothing surprising there.

How is it that Daemons fly under the radar?

It didn't we all know that a screamer start + fatewaever is nasty for years now so we don't bring it in casual games..
Hell it was already getting old the last time I played a tournament. Whats next suddenly realizing that eldar jetbikes are too fast and shooty for their points ?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


I was playing a very strong gladius list. I was tabled in 3 turns because I couldn't kill or tie up anything. 3000 points.

He had a tetred
fateweaver
A flying tzeench daemon
A max screamer star with 2 heralds
3 squads of pink horrors with a herald and 2 exalted flamers in each
and an exalted flamer chariot

Stop complaining. You are clearly playing in the maxed out OP list league That game type is about crushing your opponent expect no mercy and enjoy the risk to be tabled, but don't cry if it isn't "balanced" we all know that it isn't for ages now . You brought the predictable marine thing and the daemon player brought the predictable daemon thing nothing surprising there.

How is it that Daemons fly under the radar?

It didn't we all know that a screamer start + fatewaever is nasty for years now so we don't bring it in casual games..
Hell it was already getting old the last time I played a tournament. Whats next suddenly realizing that eldar jetbikes are too fast and shooty for their points ?

The shade has been flung

But the real question is whats better, fatey or Lord of Change :O

And on another note back to the original question, daemons arent considered one of the big 4 (Tau, SM, Eldar and Necrons) due to the fact at the start of any shooting phase you can roll double 1 and half your army explodes, as well as a number of other detrimental aspects that outweigh rolling a 12 or 11 (unless you are up against someone with a psyker warlord then its an auto win with a roll of 11)

Deamons don't get the hate because of 2 reasons IMHO;

1) You have to try and build a broken list and abuse certain mechanics
2) Even if you do 1), there's no assurance that it'll work because so much relies on gifts, powers and dicerolls that as soon as one little bit fails, it all goes downhill spectacularly.

Something as simple as a thunderfire cannon can easily snipe out the grimoure bearer in a screamerstar, removing the main source of most peoples frustration. Nothing you can do about warlord traits, but if you've got a conclave, and I suspect that the OP was running one, then denying a crucial power is definately an option. If those DP's don't get good powers and/or gifts, then you can steamroll them quite easily.

Having the unstoppable murder machine game as daemons does happen where everything goes right, but so does the game of fail where you don't roll any good powers, the grimoure fails every turn and you consistantly roll like crap for warpstorm. As most top level players will tell you, removing chance is key to success and daemons are the opposite of that. It's one of the reasons why Fateweaver and the incursion is so good, they provide a measure of control over the large amount of random variables.

Reavas wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


I was playing a very strong gladius list. I was tabled in 3 turns because I couldn't kill or tie up anything. 3000 points.

He had a tetred
fateweaver
A flying tzeench daemon
A max screamer star with 2 heralds
3 squads of pink horrors with a herald and 2 exalted flamers in each
and an exalted flamer chariot

Stop complaining. You are clearly playing in the maxed out OP list league That game type is about crushing your opponent expect no mercy and enjoy the risk to be tabled, but don't cry if it isn't "balanced" we all know that it isn't for ages now . You brought the predictable marine thing and the daemon player brought the predictable daemon thing nothing surprising there.

How is it that Daemons fly under the radar?

It didn't we all know that a screamer start + fatewaever is nasty for years now so we don't bring it in casual games..
Hell it was already getting old the last time I played a tournament. Whats next suddenly realizing that eldar jetbikes are too fast and shooty for their points ?

The shade has been flung

But the real question is whats better, fatey or Lord of Change :O

And on another note back to the original question, daemons arent considered one of the big 4 (Tau, SM, Eldar and Necrons) due to the fact at the start of any shooting phase you can roll double 1 and half your army explodes, as well as a number of other detrimental aspects that outweigh rolling a 12 or 11 (unless you are up against someone with a psyker warlord then its an auto win with a roll of 11)

That can't actually happen with demonic incursion. The get +1 or -1 to their warp-storm result. Which basically means nothing but good warp-storm results unless you roll a double 1.

Would that be the Incursion with the incredibly big core requirements?

pm713 wrote:
Would that be the Incursion with the incredibly big core requirements?

I didn't see it at first either, but the way he posted the list, it does seem to have the Core Tzeentch formation
"3 squads of pink horrors with a herald and 2 exalted flamers in each"
That's 3 Horror units and 6 Exalted Flamers, the 9 units required for the Core formation.

But I still don't see how the list is "Battle-forged". There is no "Auxiliary" choice (usually a min Furies unit). So the list couldn't be an Incursion, unless Xenomancers forgot to list them.
There also cannot be a CAD for the extra Heralds, unit of Screamers and Flamer Chariot, since the only Troops in the list are from the Core Formation.
It is possible that the Flamer chariot was summoned, but that still leaves the others.

Xenomancer, either you left out some units, or you were cheated. If there was no Auxiliary choice, no +1/-1, no re-roll Instability checks, etc. If there was no CAD, the Incursion break apart as well. He'd still get each individual Formations bonuses, but the Incursion only works if the whole army is Battle-Forged.

-

He did mention a "max screamer star with 2 heralds", which indicated a bunch of Screamers and 2 Heralds in there. 9 units of Screamers + 1 Herald can make up a single Burning Skyhost formation, which is an Auxillary Choice. The Second Herald must be from the Core Choice.

 Galef wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Would that be the Incursion with the incredibly big core requirements?

I didn't see it at first either, but the way he posted the list, it does seem to have the Core Tzeentch formation
"3 squads of pink horrors with a herald and 2 exalted flamers in each"
That's 3 Horror units and 6 Exalted Flamers, the 9 units required for the Core formation.

But I still don't see how the list is "Battle-forged". There is no "Auxiliary" choice (usually a min Furies unit). So the list couldn't be an Incursion, unless Xenomancers forgot to list them.
There also cannot be a CAD for the extra Heralds, unit of Screamers and Flamer Chariot, since the only Troops in the list are from the Core Formation.
It is possible that the Flamer chariot was summoned, but that still leaves the others.

Xenomancer, either you left out some units, or you were cheated. If there was no Auxiliary choice, no +1/-1, no re-roll Instability checks, etc. If there was no CAD, the Incursion break apart as well. He'd still get each individual Formations bonuses, but the Incursion only works if the whole army is Battle-Forged.

-

He had a squad of furries as well. They were held in reserve so I never saw them.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
He did mention a "max screamer star with 2 heralds", which indicated a bunch of Screamers and 2 Heralds in there. 9 units of Screamers + 1 Herald can make up a single Burning Skyhost formation, which is an Auxillary Choice. The Second Herald must be from the Core Choice.

There are 5 Heralds in the list he posted. 2 in the Screamer Star (which is only 1 unit BTW) and 1 in each Horror unit (3 total)
It's possible that he misunderstood what was in what unit (or that Screamer Star describes a single unit, not 8-9 units clustered together), but that just further reinforces why Daemons are underestimated.
When you don't know what you are facing, you make mistakes and get tabled, even if the army isn't top tier.

 Xenomancers wrote:

He had a squad of furries as well. They were held in reserve so I never saw them.

Ok, so that solves the Incursion problem, but he still didn't have the Troops required to field the CAD in order to get 4 extra Heralds and the Screamer unit.
Are you sure he only have 3 units of Horrors? Were there maybe 2 units of Nurglings somewhere to satisfy the CAD?

Otherwise his list would have become Unbound and he would lose the Incursion bonuses (but still kept the Formation bonuses)

-

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

And eldar stomps marines without breaking sweat if marines abstain from gladius, gravs and librarians...

You don't judge how broken codex is by removing best stuff from it out of whim to make them seem less broken.

You compare SM to eldars with WK, scatbikes and spiders by the bucketload.

 Galef wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
He did mention a "max screamer star with 2 heralds", which indicated a bunch of Screamers and 2 Heralds in there. 9 units of Screamers + 1 Herald can make up a single Burning Skyhost formation, which is an Auxillary Choice. The Second Herald must be from the Core Choice.

There are 5 Heralds in the list he posted. 2 in the Screamer Star (which is only 1 unit BTW) and 1 in each Horror unit (3 total)
It's possible that he misunderstood what was in what unit (or that Screamer Star describes a single unit, not 8-9 units clustered together), but that just further reinforces why Daemons are underestimated.
When you don't know what you are facing, you make mistakes and get tabled, even if the army isn't top tier.

 Xenomancers wrote:

He had a squad of furries as well. They were held in reserve so I never saw them.

Ok, so that solves the Incursion problem, but he still didn't have the Troops required to field the CAD in order to get 4 extra Heralds and the Screamer unit.
Are you sure he only have 3 units of Horrors? Where there maybe 2 units of Nurglings somewhere?

-

I don't think I made any real mistakes - I probably could have deployed better but I had something like 22 vehicals to deploy - there isn't a lot of decision making there. Winning the roll to go first would have made a big difference but that's about it. My Supression force did great and wiped out about 30 horors and I destroyed the exalted chariot but the 2 MC I chose to focus down (fate and his korne deamon prince each ona different flank - just laughed at my firepower. Fatey lived by his reroll twice to allow him to reroll a failed save of a 2 - which is the only way I could really hurt him. The Korne DP had an item that allowed him to regerneate wounds by getting kills in CC (easily done vs gladius) and fatey regenerated 2 wounds on turn 2 because of life leaches. I was utterly stomped and never had a chance. Simple math proves why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
He did mention a "max screamer star with 2 heralds", which indicated a bunch of Screamers and 2 Heralds in there. 9 units of Screamers + 1 Herald can make up a single Burning Skyhost formation, which is an Auxillary Choice. The Second Herald must be from the Core Choice.

There are 5 Heralds in the list he posted. 2 in the Screamer Star (which is only 1 unit BTW) and 1 in each Horror unit (3 total)
It's possible that he misunderstood what was in what unit (or that Screamer Star describes a single unit, not 8-9 units clustered together), but that just further reinforces why Daemons are underestimated.
When you don't know what you are facing, you make mistakes and get tabled, even if the army isn't top tier.

 Xenomancers wrote:

He had a squad of furries as well. They were held in reserve so I never saw them.

Ok, so that solves the Incursion problem, but he still didn't have the Troops required to field the CAD in order to get 4 extra Heralds and the Screamer unit.
Are you sure he only have 3 units of Horrors? Were there maybe 2 units of Nurglings somewhere to satisfy the CAD?

Otherwise his list would have become Unbound and he would lose the Incursion bonuses (but still kept the Formation bonuses)

-

Yep - he did have nurgling. 2 units of 3.

Daemons are all about luck of the dice if it is bad you lose
Seen a warlord roll 1 twice and get vaporized

I won't discount strategy and army bulding entirely, but yes, Chaos Daemons are subject to the wims of the dice Gods more than other armies.

I had one game where a Salamanders Player expertly drop podded right into the middle of vulnerable summoning units of Pink Horrors and Fateweaver and unleashed the maximum amount of Melta Gun fire legally possible, only to have Fateweaver walk away with only 2 wounds, after making a ludicrous amount of 4+ saves. The same game the Warp Storm table gifted me 2 units of daemons, in consecutive rounds, allowing me to wipe out his culexus assassin that would have been worrisome otherwise.

Oldmike wrote:
Daemons are all about luck of the dice if it is bad you lose
Seen a warlord roll 1 twice and get vaporized

he failed a 2++ reroll and failed a leadership of 10?

Heres the odds of that
1/36 (odds of failing a 2++ reroll) * 4/36 (odds of failing a leadership roll with LD 10) = 4/1296 = 1/324. That is the odds of a single wound 1 shooting the deamon with impossible robes. Sorry man you have it backwards you need exceptionally bad luck for that to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In case anyone is wondering here was my list.

Gladius strike force.

Demi 1
Captain
3x Las/plas Razor - Tacs w/ plas/combi plas
1x Las/plas Razor - AS w/ 2x flammer
1x Las/plas Razor - 3x LC devs
1x TLHB Razor - Command Squad w/apoth
1x Drop pod - Dread AC/HF

Demi 2
Chaplain
3x TL/AC Razor - Tacs w/ 3x Grav Cannon
1x TL/AC Razor - AS w/ 2x flammer
1x TL/AC Razor - 4x HB devs
1x TLHB Razor - Command Squad w/apoth


Supression Force
3x WW
1x LS w/ TML/HB

Raptor wing
2x Storm Talon - Skyhammer/ AC
LS - HB/TML

CAD
Space Marine Command Tanks
5x Scout Sniper Rifle
5x Scout LSS

3x Predator Auto/heavybolters

 Xenomancers wrote:

Oldmike wrote:
Daemons are all about luck of the dice if it is bad you lose
Seen a warlord roll 1 twice and get vaporized

he failed a 2++ reroll and failed a leadership of 10?

What? No, double 1's on Warp Storm forces an Instability check on a character. 3D6 Leadership test, no saves except FNP. I've had it kill my warlord too. Stop spreading gak.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Oldmike wrote:
Daemons are all about luck of the dice if it is bad you lose
Seen a warlord roll 1 twice and get vaporized

he failed a 2++ reroll and failed a leadership of 10?

What? No, double 1's on Warp Storm forces an Instability check on a character. 3D6 Leadership test, no saves except FNP. I've had it kill my warlord too. Stop spreading gak.

That doesn't happen anymore...double 1's on warpstorm is impossible with demonic incursion - the worst you can do is a result of a 2 - which I honestly don't know what it is - but it's not that bad PLUS - if it happend you would just reroll the result with fate-weaver for a more pleasant result. Sure I guess it's possible they could roll another 1 with the re-roll but it's very unlikely.

I figured he was talking about impossible robes since I already have made it abundantly clear that double 1's on warp-storm table can not happen with daemonic incursion.

I had a 3.5 Ed Daemon Prince get killed by TWO guardsmen in close combat while he had a 4+ FnP and a 2+ armor save in one round.

Extremely bad luck can happen, as can extremely good luck. The Warlord trait is 1/6 chance of happening per game and to have army-wide cursed earth is even less (as each psyker has a 1/6 chance to get it, so while getting one model with Cursed Earth is more statistically likely with more psykers, having enough to blanket your entire army is much, much rarer).

Also the result of that 1/324 would outright KILL the Daemon Prince with Impossible Robes. Failing the Leadership essentially turns the wound into an instant death hit. the 1 in 36 chance will cause a wound to the Daemon Prince, and a DP only has 4 wounds to begin with. And each of those wounds has that same leadership chance of killing the DP outright, and that's also assuming you're not using an Instant Kill Weapon (which just flat out turns it to a 1/36 chance of killing the DP).

This does make me wanna ask, Did you bring a lot of Grav Weapons? It sounds like your main problem with the army was that you couldn't force saves (which is the main way of dealing with the rerollable 2++). If that is the case you've basically faced the hard counter to your army.

 Xenomancers wrote:

That doesn't happen anymore...double 1's on warpstorm is impossible with demonic incursion ....
I figured he was talking about impossible robes since I already have made it abundantly clear that double 1's on warp-storm table can not happen with daemonic incursion.

You do realise people are giving example of general play experiences that have happened to them, and may not all be aware of, or using Demonic Incursion ?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I had a 3.5 Ed Daemon Prince get killed by TWO guardsmen in close combat while he had a 4+ FnP and a 2+ armor save in one round.

Extremely bad luck can happen, as can extremely good luck. The Warlord trait is 1/6 chance of happening per game and to have army-wide cursed earth is even less (as each psyker has a 1/6 chance to get it, so while getting one model with Cursed Earth is more statistically likely with more psykers, having enough to blanket your entire army is much, much rarer).

Also the result of that 1/324 would outright KILL the Daemon Prince with Impossible Robes. Failing the Leadership essentially turns the wound into an instant death hit. the 1 in 36 chance will cause a wound to the Daemon Prince, and a DP only has 4 wounds to begin with. And each of those wounds has that same leadership chance of killing the DP outright, and that's also assuming you're not using an Instant Kill Weapon (which just flat out turns it to a 1/36 chance of killing the DP).

This does make me wanna ask, Did you bring a lot of Grav Weapons? It sounds like your main problem with the army was that you couldn't force saves (which is the main way of dealing with the rerollable 2++). If that is the case you've basically faced the hard counter to your army.

I posted my list right above - I had only 3 grav cannons in my list. The rest was just wound forcing dakka. Correction I had a 4th grav cannon on the LR primarus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

That doesn't happen anymore...double 1's on warpstorm is impossible with demonic incursion ....
I figured he was talking about impossible robes since I already have made it abundantly clear that double 1's on warp-storm table can not happen with daemonic incursion.

You do realise people are giving example of general play experiences that have happened to them, and may not all be aware of, or using Demonic Incursion ?

Incursion was mentioned in my original post. It's my belief that incursion has broken daemons - never had trouble with daemons like this before - they were always strong but these new items and warp storm changes put them over the edge IMO. What was once random is now consistent unstoppable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I had a 3.5 Ed Daemon Prince get killed by TWO guardsmen in close combat while he had a 4+ FnP and a 2+ armor save in one round.

Extremely bad luck can happen, as can extremely good luck. The Warlord trait is 1/6 chance of happening per game and to have army-wide cursed earth is even less (as each psyker has a 1/6 chance to get it, so while getting one model with Cursed Earth is more statistically likely with more psykers, having enough to blanket your entire army is much, much rarer).

Also the result of that 1/324 would outright KILL the Daemon Prince with Impossible Robes. Failing the Leadership essentially turns the wound into an instant death hit. the 1 in 36 chance will cause a wound to the Daemon Prince, and a DP only has 4 wounds to begin with. And each of those wounds has that same leadership chance of killing the DP outright, and that's also assuming you're not using an Instant Kill Weapon (which just flat out turns it to a 1/36 chance of killing the DP).

This does make me wanna ask, Did you bring a lot of Grav Weapons? It sounds like your main problem with the army was that you couldn't force saves (which is the main way of dealing with the rerollable 2++). If that is the case you've basically faced the hard counter to your army.

My point is also that forcing wounds on a 2++ reroll is actually not an effective way to deal with it. Basically nothing can deal with that except 6 results on d weapons.

I think a major point might not have been touched on here. Most of us keep saying how Daemons rely on luck, blah, blah, but at 3000pts, luck becomes more statistic.

I think what Xenomancers experienced was due to the larger points value, which was almost double that of "most" experiences with Daemons. It could be that with so many points available, Daemons are better able to mitigate some of their bad rolls and a good player can use the better rolls to their advantage.
I think at 1850, Incursion vs Gladius is a much more even fight, with Gladius potentially having an edge and being able to exploit weaknesses.

Just a theory

-

 Galef wrote:
I think a major point might not have been touched on here. Most of us keep saying how Daemons rely on luck, blah, blah, but at 3000pts, luck becomes more statistic.

I think what Xenomancers experienced was due to the larger points value, which was almost double that of "most" experiences with Daemons. It could be that with so many points available, Daemons are better able to mitigate some of their bad rolls and a good player can use the better rolls to their advantage.
I think at 1850, Incursion vs Gladius is a much more even fight, with Gladius potentially having an edge and being able to exploit weaknesses.

Just a theory

-

I think you are right on this point for sure. Gladius is much more efficient at about 2000 points and daemons have a lot less rolls to make to get powers at that level So it's possible they don't have everything they need. However - they still have a much better chance of getting the powers they need than a conclave does with say...3-4 lvl 3 daemons/belakor/fatey - not to mention the additional magic dice coming from horrors and heralds.

In any case I'm not bringing marines vs daemons ever again if I have a choice in the matter.

I feel like the biggest reason daemons "fly under the radar" is because so few people play them.

You don't need to poll the forums to know that daemons have a bad rep of an army for being too random. Its also pretty obvious that a lot of people don't like the minis. Lastly, the army can be pretty confusing and complicated. You have a lot of stuff to keep track of, and not many people want to do their daemon taxes before playing a game.
Daemons can scale really really well with points due to their shenanigans, as OP experienced. The new formations all are honestly really nice, but VERY expensive, which is a huge detriment to them. At a high point level, being able to bring multiple of them, in an incursion has very high potential for strength. Especially to someone who doesn't know what daemons have in their arsenal.

As a daemon player, I have played against a good lot of people who have never played against daemons. The most common response is, "wow your army is broken", followed by, "My army sucks!" and lastly, something like, "Your army is strange, I don't like it". When The Tetrad came out, I got to experience those all over again.

So to me it sounds mostly like someone who didn't know what daemons could do, found out what daemons can do. Faced a very competitive Tzeentch list, and lost, which is something they were very not used to.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
So to me it sounds mostly like someone who didn't know what daemons could do, found out what daemons can do. Faced a very competitive Tzeentch list, and lost, which is something they were very not used to.

You sir summed it up better than most of us did.

Also I would like to point out that 40k is ideally played at 1500-2000 points range. Anything larger and whoever gets first turn can disproportionately destroy so much of the enemy force that it results in a curbstomp no matter what they're playing. The only Apocalypse game I ever played ended up having Titans, which literally deleted a quarter of the opposing army (the team I was on) before the first turn was even over (Quite literally, by the time he fired off everything he still had the assault phase to resolve. My army was gone by that point.)

Deamons are made of psychic stuff, so it make sense they are better are getting and using powers. Looking are both lists (and being a Daemon player) I think the Gladius should have won, but I can see a few scenarios that could go in the Daemons favor, causing them to table you. Daemons build momentum very, VERY well.

I few tips from a Deamon player: I want you to shoot at my 2++ re-rollable units. Don't start there. I assume the Tetrad Tz DP had the robes, and the other had Grimoire to cast onto Fate weaver, and one of the Herald was casting Cursed Earth.
The first target you need to be shooting at are the Horrors. Wittle down the WC available and now you can deny certain spells. Exploit a weak turn if Grimoire doesn't go off.

I played a game recently against a guy with 5 Cabal Sorcerors, 2 DPs and some Heralds in Horror units. He had over 30+D6 WC to start with. By turn 3 he had less than a dozen+D6 WC because I targeted his easy to kill psykers and ignored the 2++ guys. Until he failed a Cursed Earth and was on the ground, then I focused that DP dead.
Admittedly, I was playing Eldar, but my point is that Daemons do have weaknesses and enough players know them that Daemons cannot truly be top tier. They are just shy of that. If anything, Daemons traded spots with Necrons in terms of power, but the other 3 powerhouse armies are still well ahead.

--

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I feel like the biggest reason daemons "fly under the radar" is because so few people play them.

You don't need to poll the forums to know that daemons have a bad rep of an army for being too random. Its also pretty obvious that a lot of people don't like the minis. Lastly, the army can be pretty confusing and complicated. You have a lot of stuff to keep track of, and not many people want to do their daemon taxes before playing a game.
Daemons can scale really really well with points due to their shenanigans, as OP experienced. The new formations all are honestly really nice, but VERY expensive, which is a huge detriment to them. At a high point level, being able to bring multiple of them, in an incursion has very high potential for strength. Especially to someone who doesn't know what daemons have in their arsenal.

As a daemon player, I have played against a good lot of people who have never played against daemons. The most common response is, "wow your army is broken", followed by, "My army sucks!" and lastly, something like, "Your army is strange, I don't like it". When The Tetrad came out, I got to experience those all over again.

So to me it sounds mostly like someone who didn't know what daemons could do, found out what daemons can do. Faced a very competitive Tzeentch list, and lost, which is something they were very not used to.

Not disagreeing with anything you said. It's a pretty fair description of what happend to me. Not used to getting butt stomped and I don't play against daemons a lot. When you say their formations are expensive though - you make it sound like they don't get what they pay for - plus the requirements for these formations are things you were going to take anyways...pink horrors and heralds. These aren't drawbacks at all IMO.

It's the amount of units you have to take that's the issue.

 Galef wrote:
Deamons are made of psychic stuff, so it make sense they are better are getting and using powers. Looking are both lists (and being a Daemon player) I think the Gladius should have won, but I can see a few scenarios that could go in the Daemons favor, causing them to table you. Daemons build momentum very, VERY well.

I few tips from a Deamon player: I want you to shoot at my 2++ re-rollable units. Don't start there. I assume the Tetrad Tz DP had the robes, and the other had Grimoire to cast onto Fate weaver, and one of the Herald was casting Cursed Earth.
The first target you need to be shooting at are the Horrors. Wittle down the WC available and now you can deny certain spells. Exploit a weak turn if Grimoire doesn't go off.

I played a game recently against a guy with 5 Cabal Sorcerors, 2 DPs and some Heralds in Horror units. He had over 30+D6 WC to start with. By turn 3 he had less than a dozen+D6 WC because I targeted his easy to kill psykers and ignored the 2++ guys. Until he failed a Cursed Earth and was on the ground, then I focused that DP dead.
Admittedly, I was playing Eldar, but my point is that Daemons do have weaknesses and enough players know them that Daemons cannot truly be top tier. They are just shy of that. If anything, Daemons traded spots with Necrons in terms of power, but the other 3 powerhouse armies are still well ahead.

--

I really only had 2 turns and minus my HB devs and dakka pred unit shooting skyfire at fatey with command tanks buffs. Everything else shot at the horrors. Because of terrain features he still had 3-5 horrors a peice in each unit and only lost 1 exalted flamer at the end of turn 1. 3 Grav cannon tacticals on my left flank engaged a Korne DP that had endurance cast on him I did an amazing 2 wounds (the nurgle with no spells on him had a 2+ cover save at the time) Fatey lived through the phase with 1 wound due to his reroll. turn 2 I was charged by 4 Daemon princes and a screamer star. Invis DP charged my Ironclad. Invis screamer charged my whole front line of razors. Pretty much over at that point. What really would have helped would have been a cluexus but that is so easy to counter now I don't think it's viable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I feel like the biggest reason daemons "fly under the radar" is because so few people play them.

You don't need to poll the forums to know that daemons have a bad rep of an army for being too random. Its also pretty obvious that a lot of people don't like the minis. Lastly, the army can be pretty confusing and complicated. You have a lot of stuff to keep track of, and not many people want to do their daemon taxes before playing a game.
Daemons can scale really really well with points due to their shenanigans, as OP experienced. The new formations all are honestly really nice, but VERY expensive, which is a huge detriment to them. At a high point level, being able to bring multiple of them, in an incursion has very high potential for strength. Especially to someone who doesn't know what daemons have in their arsenal.

As a daemon player, I have played against a good lot of people who have never played against daemons. The most common response is, "wow your army is broken", followed by, "My army sucks!" and lastly, something like, "Your army is strange, I don't like it". When The Tetrad came out, I got to experience those all over again.

So to me it sounds mostly like someone who didn't know what daemons could do, found out what daemons can do. Faced a very competitive Tzeentch list, and lost, which is something they were very not used to.

Not disagreeing with anything you said. It's a pretty fair description of what happend to me. Not used to getting butt stomped and I don't play against daemons a lot. When you say their formations are expensive though - you make it sound like they don't get what they pay for - plus the requirements for these formations are things you were going to take anyways...pink horrors and heralds. These aren't drawbacks at all IMO.

Most of these formations are obtuse for the average player, both in points, and in money. As pm713 said, its that you need 9 units for the Tzeentch one, 8 for khorne, 7 for nurgle and 6 for slaanesh. Your looking at a point cost that is very expensive for these troop formations, and in comparison to say, necrons or space marines, the bonuses are not that hot for an average 1850 game.
Now when you combine them, say, a tetrad+tallyband, you can get something nasty going, but that tallyband is bare minimum, almost all nurglings. It's nearly impossible to fit some of those core formations into a standard game, and then something that can throw some weight around. At 3000pt though, you can bring all the toys! I mean, a skyhost is +700pt for 9 units of MSU screamers! That isn't very friendly on the wallet! The bonus for the MSU skyhost? soul blaze and warp flame on your slashing attacks. Hardly worth the investment. You need to put some chariots in for it to become OK. I mean, Look at the Destroyer cult, now THAT is a good formation! That is how a spam formation is done.

Point is, these formations only shine in games as large as the one you played, and for players who have a collection as massive as the one you faced. Yes, I almost always bring pink horrors in my daemon games. No, I never bring 9 units of them. I only own like 30. Yes, I always bring plaguebearers, but I never bring 7 units, I don't own 70... only 50 or so. The only 2 of these core formations I can pull off, as a 5 year long daemon player are the tallyband and rotswarm, plus I used to run mono nurgle, so that helps a lot!

Tallyband, because you can make like 6 nurgling bases out of one kit, and I got a bunch of old nurglings on the cheap. So I have 6 MSU nurglings and 1 PB unit.
Rotswarm because I have spawn I can use as beasts of nurgle, and a big unit of plague drones.

Honestly, these formations are like they looked at the old Apoc formations and decided to put them in standard games.

I do have to concede though that the Tetrad is fairly powerful, even as a standalone formation. There's a whole thread about it in the tactics section about fielding it as a standalone army, which is rare for any of these "Decurion" formations to be.

Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

BossJakadakk wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

Online. It was generally that it was too few models.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

It opened my mind to a whole new level of critical thinking on the tabletop. But I came from Eldar


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

Online. It was generally that it was too few models.

Ah yeah. That was my first concern, actually. But the buff to toughness helps a lot, at least in my games so far. Scatbike spam against it would be a totally different story, but that just rolls most things anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

How does a Slaanesh Prince get a 2++ rerolling?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BossJakadakk wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

It opened my mind to a whole new level of critical thinking on the tabletop. But I came from Eldar


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

Online. It was generally that it was too few models.

Ah yeah. That was my first concern, actually. But the buff to toughness helps a lot, at least in my games so far. Scatbike spam against it would be a totally different story, but that just rolls most things anyway.

I'm quite happy that it's decent actually.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

This falls under the points limit allowing these shenanigans again, I think. In most standard-size games, 2++ isn't going to be as widespread through the army as it was in your game, let alone getting rerolls on everything.

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

How does a Slaanesh Prince get a 2++ rerolling?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BossJakadakk wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

It opened my mind to a whole new level of critical thinking on the tabletop. But I came from Eldar


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

Online. It was generally that it was too few models.

Ah yeah. That was my first concern, actually. But the buff to toughness helps a lot, at least in my games so far. Scatbike spam against it would be a totally different story, but that just rolls most things anyway.

I'm quite happy that it's decent actually.

It's harder to get him there but it's possible. He will at least be flying correct? with a 4+ invo at the very least?

I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

pm713 wrote:
I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

That's jsut standing a cursed earth and being within 9 inches of the +1 invo bubble warlord trait. That's not even counting possible warp-storm table.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

To have a Slaanesh Prince with a 2++ reroll, you'll need to buff it with the Grimoire, the Warlord trait or Cursed Earth, and a third buff that actually grants rerolls to it (Slaanesh Daemons don't have rerollable invul saves. That's Tzeentch Daemon speciality). Without a whole suite of special rules backing it up, a Slaanesh Prince has 4 wounds, T6 (due to the Formation buff) and a 5+ invul save and that's it. 3+ armor save if you decide to shell out the 40 points for Warpforged Armor (which most people don't due to the formation already bleeding points as it is).

If your opponent told you his non-Tzeentch Daemons had rerolls as well, he was either using a Psychic Power I wasn't aware of OR he lied to you. Only Tzeentch Daemons get rerolls and only rerolls of 1, nothing else.

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

That's jsut standing a cursed earth and being within 9 inches of the +1 invo bubble warlord trait. That's not even counting possible warp-storm table.

This explains A LOT. So the +1 invul WL trait is a Tz trait and the bubble only affect Tz units. If the WL is one of the Tetrad Princes, then all Princes share the trait, but there is no possible scenario to re-roll your WL trait for this formation, meaning only a 1 in 6 chance to get it. If that is what you're opponent rolled AND most of his army was Tzeentch, it's really no wonder you lost.

If your opponent had rolled literally ANY other trait, I suspect your game would have gone quite differently. At 3000pts, getting that specific trait pretty much won the game for the Daemon player.

--

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

To have a Slaanesh Prince with a 2++ reroll, you'll need to buff it with the Grimoire, the Warlord trait or Cursed Earth, and a third buff that actually grants rerolls to it (Slaanesh Daemons don't have rerollable invul saves. That's Tzeentch Daemon speciality). Without a whole suite of special rules backing it up, a Slaanesh Prince has 4 wounds, T6 (due to the Formation buff) and a 5+ invul save and that's it. 3+ armor save if you decide to shell out the 40 points for Warpforged Armor (which most people don't due to the formation already bleeding points as it is).

If your opponent told you his non-Tzeentch Daemons had rerolls as well, he was either using a Psychic Power I wasn't aware of OR he lied to you. Only Tzeentch Daemons get rerolls and only rerolls of 1, nothing else.

He had 3 Tzeetch daemons - thats why I said rerolls by mistake. There is an item I think that grants reroll invo save in the incursion book - not sure is that is mark specific ether.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

That's jsut standing a cursed earth and being within 9 inches of the +1 invo bubble warlord trait. That's not even counting possible warp-storm table.

This explains A LOT. So the +1 invul WL trait is a Tz trait and the bubble only affect Tz units. If the WL is one of the Tetrad Princes, they all share the trait, but there is no possible scenario to re-roll your WL trait for this formation, meaning only a 1 in 6 chance to get it. If that is what you're opponent rolled AND most of his army was Tzeentch, it's really no wonder you lost.

If your opponent had rolled literally ANY other trait, I suspect your game would have gone quite differently.

It only effects TZ units?

There is no relic that grants rerolling invul saves that I know of that a non-Tzeentchian Daemon would have access to, so I assumed it was one of the Psychic Powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Warp Tether Warlord Trait grants it to the Warlord AND daemons of Tzeentch within 9", so a DP of Slaanesh can get it if he made the Tzeentch Prince in the Tetrad as the Warlord and got extremely lucky on the roll.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

To have a Slaanesh Prince with a 2++ reroll, you'll need to buff it with the Grimoire, the Warlord trait or Cursed Earth, and a third buff that actually grants rerolls to it (Slaanesh Daemons don't have rerollable invul saves. That's Tzeentch Daemon speciality). Without a whole suite of special rules backing it up, a Slaanesh Prince has 4 wounds, T6 (due to the Formation buff) and a 5+ invul save and that's it. 3+ armor save if you decide to shell out the 40 points for Warpforged Armor (which most people don't due to the formation already bleeding points as it is).

If your opponent told you his non-Tzeentch Daemons had rerolls as well, he was either using a Psychic Power I wasn't aware of OR he lied to you. Only Tzeentch Daemons get rerolls and only rerolls of 1, nothing else.

He had 3 Tzeetch daemons - thats why I said rerolls by mistake. There is an item I think that grants reroll invo save in the incursion book - not sure is that is mark specific ether.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

That's jsut standing a cursed earth and being within 9 inches of the +1 invo bubble warlord trait. That's not even counting possible warp-storm table.

This explains A LOT. So the +1 invul WL trait is a Tz trait and the bubble only affect Tz units. If the WL is one of the Tetrad Princes, they all share the trait, but there is no possible scenario to re-roll your WL trait for this formation, meaning only a 1 in 6 chance to get it. If that is what you're opponent rolled AND most of his army was Tzeentch, it's really no wonder you lost.

If your opponent had rolled literally ANY other trait, I suspect your game would have gone quite differently.

It only effects TZ units?

TZ units and the other daemon princes in the tetrad (assuming the dp of tzeentch was the warlord), because they share the WL trait, and it calls out "The warlord and tzeentch units within *yada yada yada*"

The trait effects the WL and all Tz units within 9". Since the Tetrad share WL traits, it would also effect the non-Tz Princes. But that's ONLY if his WL was a member of the Tetrad.

There is a Greater reward that grants re-roll invuls. This is available to any Daemon that can buy Greater rewards, which Tetrad DPs will most assuredly have 2 of.

-

His warlord had to be the Tzeentch Daemon Prince too, not just any prince since the other princes can't roll on the Tzeentch Warlord trait.

EDIT: Ah right, Greater Rewards. I'm the guy who usually trade those for weapons instead >.>

There are always bad matchups. My KDK love playing deathstar, small unit number lists. Riptides, eldar bikes, marine bikes, etc.

Why? Because they do not have enough firepower to stop me from taking objectives. I have limitless numbers of models to cover the board, and I generate more units as they kill them.

Against Space Marine MSU? Ugh, just a slogfest that usually ends in a draw or close loss.

Point is, that daemon list is good at some things, and falls flat on it's face against any anti-psyker armies. (Grey Knights with santic, assasins, etc)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Oldmike wrote:
Daemons are all about luck of the dice if it is bad you lose
Seen a warlord roll 1 twice and get vaporized

he failed a 2++ reroll and failed a leadership of 10?

What? No, double 1's on Warp Storm forces an Instability check on a character. 3D6 Leadership test, no saves except FNP. I've had it kill my warlord too. Stop spreading gak.

That doesn't happen anymore...double 1's on warpstorm is impossible with demonic incursion - the worst you can do is a result of a 2 - which I honestly don't know what it is - but it's not that bad PLUS - if it happend you would just reroll the result with fate-weaver for a more pleasant result. Sure I guess it's possible they could roll another 1 with the re-roll but it's very unlikely.

I figured he was talking about impossible robes since I already have made it abundantly clear that double 1's on warp-storm table can not happen with daemonic incursion.

Dude a 3 is much worse than a 2, a roll of double ones requires your whole army to take instability checks, this means (with most units at LD 7) you will lose a buttload of models, not including if you roll double 6 and lose whole units, then there is a roll of a 3... like mentioned before a random character has to take a 3d6 leadership which is very likely to kill any warlord, again not including rolling any double 6's.

This danger far outweighs the pro's of rolling a 12 or 11 (unless enemy warlord is a psyker)

I've never found Daemons to be broken, just infuriating, and it's not even losing to them that irritated me the most it was watching them lose to everything else and wondering Why the hell did he get all the luck against me?

The main problem with Daemons is that if you roll really good or really bad, it's a curb stomp (just changes direction) and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Which is probably why it's frustrating. If a streak hits you, even a mild one, it no longer feels like you're playing the game since angry Khorne fists will literally start appearing from the skies to kick you.

Reavas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Oldmike wrote:
Daemons are all about luck of the dice if it is bad you lose
Seen a warlord roll 1 twice and get vaporized

he failed a 2++ reroll and failed a leadership of 10?

What? No, double 1's on Warp Storm forces an Instability check on a character. 3D6 Leadership test, no saves except FNP. I've had it kill my warlord too. Stop spreading gak.

That doesn't happen anymore...double 1's on warpstorm is impossible with demonic incursion - the worst you can do is a result of a 2 - which I honestly don't know what it is - but it's not that bad PLUS - if it happend you would just reroll the result with fate-weaver for a more pleasant result. Sure I guess it's possible they could roll another 1 with the re-roll but it's very unlikely.

I figured he was talking about impossible robes since I already have made it abundantly clear that double 1's on warp-storm table can not happen with daemonic incursion.

Dude a 3 is much worse than a 2, a roll of double ones requires your whole army to take instability checks, this means (with most units at LD 7) you will lose a buttload of models, not including if you roll double 6 and lose whole units, then there is a roll of a 3... like mentioned before a random character has to take a 3d6 leadership which is very likely to kill any warlord, again not including rolling any double 6's.

This danger far outweighs the pro's of rolling a 12 or 11 (unless enemy warlord is a psyker)

Well - in the incursion you will never be forced to take a 3 result. The worst you would be forced to take is a 1 or 2 if you roll double ones. So as far as I can tell - the main weakness of the daemons has been removed with incursion. The enemy warlord or any psyker is still at risk every turn of becoming a herald - while you can always take the best of your 3 options.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've never found Daemons to be broken, just infuriating, and it's not even losing to them that irritated me the most it was watching them lose to everything else and wondering Why the hell did he get all the luck against me?

Yeah, the one loss I had against an all Khorne list my friend was running, and I was using my Tyranids, he rolled an 11 on the Warp Storm, and my Swarmlord rolled an 11 on his LD check. Rip him.

Otherwise, they're completely luck based, unless you run strict cheese and know exactly what you're doing, and even then you still need a lot of luck.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've never found Daemons to be broken, just infuriating, and it's not even losing to them that irritated me the most it was watching them lose to everything else and wondering Why the hell did he get all the luck against me?

Yeah, the one loss I had against an all Khorne list my friend was running, and I was using my Tyranids, he rolled an 11 on the Warp Storm, and my Swarmlord rolled an 11 on his LD check. Rip him.

Otherwise, they're completely luck based, unless you run strict cheese and know exactly what you're doing, and even then you still need a lot of luck.

I sympathize mate, he got my Wolf Lord. Three possible rolls to fail and I got one of them.

Let's also not forget that models in the Incursion also re-roll Instability checks. So even if you roll a 2 (or bump it to a 3) the models taking the test(s) will get to re-roll the result.

Note that while an Incursion allows you to add/subtract from the Warp Storm and that will apply to ALL Daemons, not just the ones in the Incursion, the re-roll Instability only applies to models in the Incursion. So if there is a CAD alongside, the models in the CAD do not get to re-roll Instability.

For the Warp Storm, the only bad results for the Daemons are 2, 3, & 4. 4 being the absolute worst. If you roll a 4, you bump to 5. If you roll a 3, you probably keep it, if you roll a 2, you bump to 3.

-

In regards to the 2++ reroll Slaanesh discussion above, the Greater Reward table does allow for Dark Blessing (re-roll failed invuln saves) on a roll of 4. Rare but possible. Not as good as Daemon of Tzeentch (re-roll ALL saves) but that argument is situational.

 reiner wrote:
In regards to the 2++ reroll Slaanesh discussion above, the Greater Reward table does allow for Dark Blessing (re-roll failed invuln saves) on a roll of 4. Rare but possible. Not as good as Daemon of Tzeentch (re-roll ALL saves of '1') but that argument is situational.

Underlined edit added for clarity. I'm sure you knew this, but just in case someone read it wrong

 Galef wrote:

 reiner wrote:
In regards to the 2++ reroll Slaanesh discussion above, the Greater Reward table does allow for Dark Blessing (re-roll failed invuln saves) on a roll of 4. Rare but possible. Not as good as Daemon of Tzeentch (re-roll ALL saves of '1') but that argument is situational.

Underlined edit added for clarity. I'm sure you knew this, but just in case someone read it wrong

Appreciate the backup on clarification, Galef, because yes.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've never found Daemons to be broken, just infuriating, and it's not even losing to them that irritated me the most it was watching them lose to everything else and wondering Why the hell did he get all the luck against me?

Yeah, the one loss I had against an all Khorne list my friend was running, and I was using my Tyranids, he rolled an 11 on the Warp Storm, and my Swarmlord rolled an 11 on his LD check. Rip him.

Otherwise, they're completely luck based, unless you run strict cheese and know exactly what you're doing, and even then you still need a lot of luck.

I sympathize mate, he got my Wolf Lord. Three possible rolls to fail and I got one of them.

Yeah, doesn't happen often. But when it does, it stings.

So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Between all my daemons getting -1 to their invul saves, having a random CHARACTER take 3D6 Instability, or my entire army taking Instability, none of them I would actively choose.

Not to mention that if I'm running a four-god army (the Tetrad has this as a basic requirement) and I get one of the "god hates you" rolls, you're pretty much gonna have to choose someone to take a hit.

The table isn't as unbalanced as you think. The Incursion just gives us a way to mitigate it. If you need a better analogy, this is like if Space Marines had, say, a way of boosting their Warp Charge Harnessing to a 3+ or maybe +1 to their FnP rolls, or +1 to hit and so on.

Because space marines totally do not have access to those things in their Gladius. Riiiiight?

 Xenomancers wrote:
So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Dude, you lost. He had a better list, got some lucky rolls, and beat you. Stop being so salty. And Daemons don't fly under the rader, a guy got top 8 at the LVO with a Daemons list running all Tzeentch.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alan-Bajramovic-4th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Dude, you lost. He had a better list, got some lucky rolls, and beat you. Stop being so salty. And Daemons don't fly under the rader, a guy got top 8 at the LVO with a Daemons list running all Tzeentch.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alan-Bajramovic-4th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

Your kind of proving my point though...His list wasn't even daemonic incursion. I had no problem with pre incursion daemons.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Dude, you lost. He had a better list, got some lucky rolls, and beat you. Stop being so salty. And Daemons don't fly under the rader, a guy got top 8 at the LVO with a Daemons list running all Tzeentch.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alan-Bajramovic-4th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

Your kind of proving my point though...His list wasn't even daemonic incursion. I had no problem with pre incursion daemons.

Am I? So Daemons got a good formation that stands up to the Gladius or the Psyker Conclave. How is that unfair? It's just more people spamming the best units, it's no different than Wolfstar w/ Librarius, Eldar shenanigans, etc.

I guess the point isn't how Daemons can prevent being "unlucky" by using the Incursion bonus, but it's more about how "lucky" they get rolling Warlord Traits, Greater Rewards and Psypowers.

In your game, Xenomancers, the WL trait rolled was pretty much they best one he could have possibly rolled for his list, and there was only a 1-in-6 chance for that to happen, with no re-roll possible. And no Daemon gets to re-roll rewards, though the Greater table has got really good ones.
It basically boils down to Daemons having the potential to get some really good rolls before the game even starts. Equally likely is having a game where you get a crap WL trait (like the Soul-blaze one) and miss getting any of the durability improving Greater rewards. It's happened to me personally.

What makes Daemons seem "OP" is the how the player uses them. I'd say Daemons are probably the 1 army in 40k that benefits the most from a skilled player. A 'good' player still needs some of those good rolls to play well, but a 'great' player can make due with more bad ones.
But all hell (Warp?) breaks loose when that same 'great' player gets a majority of good rolls. Hello, SM Chapter Baby Seals, here's a club to the face

So while certain Daemon lists played by a certain few players can royally stomp Space Marines, Daemons will still not be considered top tier because of how "Point & Click" easy Gladius, Scatterbike/WK spam and Tau currently are.

-

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Dude, you lost. He had a better list, got some lucky rolls, and beat you. Stop being so salty. And Daemons don't fly under the rader, a guy got top 8 at the LVO with a Daemons list running all Tzeentch.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alan-Bajramovic-4th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

Your kind of proving my point though...His list wasn't even daemonic incursion. I had no problem with pre incursion daemons.

Am I? So Daemons got a good formation that stands up to the Gladius or the Psyker Conclave. How is that unfair? It's just more people spamming the best units, it's no different than Wolfstar w/ Librarius, Eldar shenanigans, etc.

It is different for a lot of reasons. Marines are absolute garbo without gladius or libby conclave. How many pregladius marine armies were winning grad tourny events by spamming Rhinos and Razorbacks and tactical marines? Even with a 6th edition codex the daemons have been placing high at tourney events since I can remember - and vs 7th edition armies. Incursion removes all their weaknesses and adds tons of strength. Super broken if you ask me. That's not to say there is not other super broken stuff in this game. My point is that this army now belongs in that category.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I guess the point isn't how Daemons can prevent being "unlucky" by using the Incursion bonus, but it's more about how "lucky" they get rolling Warlord Traits, Greater Rewards and Psypowers.

In your game, Xenomancers, the WL trait rolled was pretty much they best one he could have possibly rolled for his list, and there was only a 1-in-6 chance for that to happen, with no re-roll possible. And no Daemon gets to re-roll rewards, though the Greater table has got really good ones.
It basically boils down to Daemons having the potential to get some really good rolls before the game even starts. Equally likely is having a game where you get a crap WL trait (like the Soul-blaze one) and miss getting any of the durability improving Greater rewards. It's happened to me personally.

What makes Daemons seem "OP" is the how the player uses them. I'd say Daemons are probably the 1 army in 40k that benefits the most from a skilled player. A 'good' player still needs some of those good rolls to play well, but a 'great' player can make due with more bad ones.
But all hell (Warp?) breaks loose when that same 'great' player gets a majority of good rolls. Hello, SM Chapter Baby Seals, here's a club to the face

So while certain Daemon lists played by a certain few players can royally stomp Space Marines, Daemons will still not be considered top tier because of how "Point & Click" easy Gladius, Scatterbike/WK spam and Tau currently are.

-

So in the hands of a skilled player - where do you rank daemons?

 Xenomancers wrote:

So in the hands of a skilled player - where do you rank daemons?

If all players involed are equally well skilled, I'd rank a good Incursion list just below Eldar Scatterbike/WK spam and Tau Suit spam, but above Necron Decurion.
Against Marines it gets tricky. Overall a good Gladius list should preform better against Eldar and Tau than the Incursion would fare against either. But the same Incursion list would probably be much better against the Gladius.

Eldar, Tau, Marines & Necrons were the "big 4" before the Incursion list, but I think we are starting to see how the post-Incursion Deamons have beat out Necrons for that spot.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

So in the hands of a skilled player - where do you rank daemons?

If all players involed are equally well skilled, I'd rank a good Incursion list just below Eldar Scatterbike/WK spam and Tau Suit spam, but above Necron Decurion.
Against Marines it gets tricky. Overall a good Gladius list should preform better against Eldar and Tau than the Incursion would fare against either. But the same Incursion list would probably be much better against the Gladius.

Eldar, Tau, Marines & Necrons were the "big 4" before the Incursion list, but I think we are starting to see how the post-Incursion Deamons have beat out Necrons for that spot.

-

I agree with those being the new most powerful armies. I disagree on the order Eldar>Daemons>Tau>Space marines

Xenoi, it's not even worth talking with you at this point. No one's ever denied Daemons were top tier, just that they're top tier like Nids, in that there's very few successful lists. But sure, Daemons are OP and Gladius is fair and fluffy. Happy?

I don't think I explained correctly. I did not mean "Eldar>Daemons>Tau>Space marines"
I meant this: Eldar>Tau>Space Marine>Necrons
Deamons>Space Marines & Necrons, but cannot fit in the above because Daemons can't stand up to Eldar or Tau as well as Space marines can.

It's more like rock/paper/scissors. SM = paper, Eldar = rock, Daemons = scissors. Assuming "rock" rips through "paper", of course.

Side note edit: I'm denying Daemons as Top Tier. Not because they can't beat Top Tier lists, but because they get much less "guarantees" than the other armies. Imagine if Eldar players had to roll to see if they could buy Scatter lasers, or if Marines had to roll to see if their squads got Grav, but still had to pay points for them if they didn't. Eldar can build a Top tier slaughter list with 0 psychic powers (or pay only 115 pts for near guaranteed twin-linking 2 units)
There are more opportunities for "bad dice" with Daemons that other armies who can just pay points to make certain combos. Daemons are also a CC army in an edition that favors shooting.
Although it is quite impressive that they do as well as they can despite this

-

 Galef wrote:
I don't think I explained correctly. I did not mean "Eldar>Daemons>Tau>Space marines"
I meant this: Eldar>Tau>Space Marine>Necrons
Deamons>Space Marines & Necrons, but cannot fit in the above because Daemons can't stand up to Eldar or Tau as well as Space marines can.

It's more like rock/paper/scissors. SM = paper, Eldar = rock, Daemons = scissors. Assuming "rock" rips through "paper", of course.

Side note edit: I'm denying Daemons as Top Tier. Not because they can't beat Top Tier lists, but because they get much less "guarantees" than the other armies. Imagine if Eldar players had to roll to see if they could buy Scatter lasers, or if Marines had to roll to see if their squads got Grav, but still had to pay points for them if they didn't. Eldar can build a Top tier slaughter list with 0 psychic powers (or pay only 115 pts for near guaranteed twin-linking 2 units)
There are more opportunities for "bad dice" with Daemons that other armies who can just pay points to make certain combos. Daemons are also a CC army in an edition that favors shooting.
Although it is quite impressive that they do as well as they can despite this

-

This. I've had some great games as Daemons, and games where I rolled utter gak and it ended up costing me the game. Random wargear isn't much fun

Just because I'm cheeky, I'm gonna do some maths!

The warlord trait, if it was on the Daemon Princes, is 1 in 6.

If EACH daemon prince also had a 2++ rerollable, that would mean that, combined with the above, they would have also needed one specific greater reward. To be generous, lets say they each had two rolls on the table to get it, so 2/6 or 1/3

But each of the non-princes would need it, so it would be 1/9 (1/3 times itself three times)

so just those two together would have been a 1/54 chance.

No other army in the game has a 1/54 chance of having a specific setup for their army before the game has even started. Every other army is, at worst, 1 in 6 because of Warlord Traits (psychic powers are discounted because complicated math is not cheeky math), and most don't give a rat's ass about the warlord trait in the grand scheme of the army (with the exception of a handful that abuse the infiltration trait). I discounted the Warp Storm Table because with Marine Formations, Marines do have their own way of mitigating bad rolls as well.

(If you do add in all the psychic powers and the warp storm table traits and whatever, the odds of it all occuring like that shoots up so high that you actually have a better chance of wounding a daemon in his army than he were to have that specific army set up against you).

Also on a tangent; Razorspam *was* a thing in 5th edition due to them being cheap weapon platforms and inhumanly durable under the 5th edition vehicle rules, and was only considered sub-par in recent editions because Marines started abusing the hell out of drop pod spam. Not to mention Vanilla Marines were complained to be broken because they had exclusive access to Grav for the longest time.

You've had a loss, and sounds like a rather humiliating one at that. Take it on the chin and learn from it.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Just because I'm cheeky, I'm gonna do some maths!

The warlord trait, if it was on the Daemon Princes, is 1 in 6.

If EACH daemon prince also had a 2++ rerollable, that would mean that, combined with the above, they would have also needed one specific greater reward. To be generous, lets say they each had two rolls on the table to get it, so 2/6 or 1/3

But each of the non-princes would need it, so it would be 1/9 (1/3 times itself three times)

so just those two together would have been a 1/54 chance.

No other army in the game has a 1/54 chance of having a specific setup for their army before the game has even started. Every other army is, at worst, 1 in 6 because of Warlord Traits (psychic powers are discounted because complicated math is not cheeky math), and most don't give a rat's ass about the warlord trait in the grand scheme of the army (with the exception of a handful that abuse the infiltration trait). I discounted the Warp Storm Table because with Marine Formations, Marines do have their own way of mitigating bad rolls as well.

(If you do add in all the psychic powers and the warp storm table traits and whatever, the odds of it all occuring like that shoots up so high that you actually have a better chance of wounding a daemon in his army than he were to have that specific army set up against you).

Also on a tangent; Razorspam *was* a thing in 5th edition due to them being cheap weapon platforms and inhumanly durable under the 5th edition vehicle rules, and was only considered sub-par in recent editions because Marines started abusing the hell out of drop pod spam. Not to mention Vanilla Marines were complained to be broken because they had exclusive access to Grav for the longest time.

You've had a loss, and sounds like a rather humiliating one at that. Take it on the chin and learn from it.

^^^ Da Troof ^^^

Something else can happen much easier with Daemons as well. Since Daemons have so much random rolling on so many tables that most players aren't intimately familiar with, it can be easy to cheat and say a roll gives a different results.

When your opponent rolled his Trait and Rewards, did he show you the book? Or just say "I rolled a 4, that menas X"?

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

 Galef wrote:

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

When I was getting more pick up games, I'd go over my rolls as I did them with my opponent and make sure they had time to peruse. However, it usually ended up with a glazed look or a dismissive "I trust you". Blindsides were common, but at least they trusted my rolls. The advice is solid, in getting somewhat familiar with how rewards work and the more common choices on these. Also, pay attention to redundant psychic powers hidden among heralds or horrors. That kind of redundancy wins games for Daemons.

 reiner wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

When I was getting more pick up games, I'd go over my rolls as I did them with my opponent and make sure they had time to peruse. However, it usually ended up with a glazed look or a dismissive "I trust you". Blindsides were common, but at least they trusted my rolls. The advice is solid, in getting somewhat familiar with how rewards work and the more common choices on these. Also, pay attention to redundant psychic powers hidden among heralds or horrors. That kind of redundancy wins games for Daemons.

Yep. I usually tell my opponents "Hey, I'll go over everything pre-game, but stop and ask me any time, cuz I have a boatload of special rules"

 jreilly89 wrote:

 reiner wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

When I was getting more pick up games, I'd go over my rolls as I did them with my opponent and make sure they had time to peruse. However, it usually ended up with a glazed look or a dismissive "I trust you". Blindsides were common, but at least they trusted my rolls. The advice is solid, in getting somewhat familiar with how rewards work and the more common choices on these. Also, pay attention to redundant psychic powers hidden among heralds or horrors. That kind of redundancy wins games for Daemons.

Yep. I usually tell my opponents "Hey, I'll go over everything pre-game, but stop and ask me any time, cuz I have a boatload of special rules"

This so much. Daemons are complicated and it can go a long way towards making your opponent feel as though thegame was fair to simply show him your codex as you roll rewards. Ive always made sure my opponents know my reward rolls as well as psyker spells, even to the point of repeating myself multiple times.

It just feels more sportsmanlike and really softens the blow of a loss for your opponent.

Having said this i disagree that daemons are OP, i think theyre actually in a good place balance wise.

I am late to the party, but I read this is a 3k game. 3k of Gladius. That is horrifying. The deployment is wall to wall rhinos? I would just keep making demi companies if possible. There is no way the daemons could kill that amount of units

AncientSkarbrand wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 reiner wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

When I was getting more pick up games, I'd go over my rolls as I did them with my opponent and make sure they had time to peruse. However, it usually ended up with a glazed look or a dismissive "I trust you". Blindsides were common, but at least they trusted my rolls. The advice is solid, in getting somewhat familiar with how rewards work and the more common choices on these. Also, pay attention to redundant psychic powers hidden among heralds or horrors. That kind of redundancy wins games for Daemons.

Yep. I usually tell my opponents "Hey, I'll go over everything pre-game, but stop and ask me any time, cuz I have a boatload of special rules"

This so much. Daemons are complicated and it can go a long way towards making your opponent feel as though thegame was fair to simply show him your codex as you roll rewards. Ive always made sure my opponents know my reward rolls as well as psyker spells, even to the point of repeating myself multiple times.

It just feels more sportsmanlike and really softens the blow of a loss for your opponent.

Having said this i disagree that daemons are OP, i think theyre actually in a good place balance wise.

Daemons at most have some very, very rude exploits that simply should not exist at all. (*cough*rerollable2++saves*cough*) And I say this as someone who's played predominately Tzeentch Daemons since the original 5th ed codex was released!
Likewise, I think it's BS that Horrors can take anything other than Tzeentch magic - at best they should have Tizz + Pyromancy, since their focus has always been a purely psychic/magical artillery role. Suddenly becoming better versions of SG1's Replicators should never have been allowed.

Mostly though, Daemons are just that 'weird' army that few non-Chaos players will be familiar with, and come across at face value as being counter-intuitive at first glance due to the completely random nature of our rules & wargear generation.
Instead though, you have an on-paper inherently random army, but all those Reward tables and such contain a lot of built-in controls... From defaulting to really, really good weapons, to things like literally *ALL* of the protective rolls being located within the Greater Rewards table.
Instruments themselves can help to mitigate the backlash of the most common Warpstorm table results (or enhance them!), with the various Locii abilities & banners acting as huge force multipliers, and the available synergies of choosing the right psychic lores to support it all.

AND THEN, add in all the tasty new artifacts & warlord traits + the super detachment from CotW, and yeah, Daemons are basically 7th's version of 5th ed's Orks, who when designed & used well, can still hang with the newest "cheese" of the top dogs despite being the second oldest book currently in the game.



On the whole though, OP is simply proving why so many people roll their eyes at Loyalists... Daemon opponent literally ended up with a game where they effectively 'caught lightning in a bottle' and roflestomped to victory by simply winning the Warp Lottery.

Both players brought hyper competitive, maxed out & finely aged gouda to the party. Daemons won it pre-game because of sheer dumb luck. OP's response is to just whine and cry "OMG! Daemons are so brokenz, my muhreen sux compared to them!"
On the other hand, it's not like Loyalists players ever called out Daemon players as being nothing but a bunch of whiney, entitled noobs who just needed to "L2P & GitGud" when Grey Knights auto-stomped us into the ground with game breaking mechanics that led to times we couldn't even legally deploy a single model on the table!

I think it has to do with two things:

1) What GW is really trying to push right now
2) What is selling well right now

GW is really trying to push AoS right now. They aren't abandoning 40K, but they are pushing AoS and only really certain armies in AoS. So, 40K Chaos isn't going to get a lot of attention right now just like 40K in general isn't getting a ton of attention right now (even though it's still dominating in sales).

Also, I'm sure GW is looking at sales numbers from the past to forecast what will sell now and in the future. Granted, it may be simply because Chaos has been so neglected, but for the year+ that I've been into Warhammer, I've seen very, very few people buying Chaos models in general Daemons or Space Marines. While I can really only look at my local GW shop, I don't think the Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines has sold well at all.

That's probably why Chaos as a whole hasn't had really any support in a long time.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
I think it has to do with two things:

1) What GW is really trying to push right now
2) What is selling well right now

GW is really trying to push AoS right now. They aren't abandoning 40K, but they are pushing AoS and only really certain armies in AoS. So, 40K Chaos isn't going to get a lot of attention right now just like 40K in general isn't getting a ton of attention right now (even though it's still dominating in sales).

Also, I'm sure GW is looking at sales numbers from the past to forecast what will sell now and in the future. Granted, it may be simply because Chaos has been so neglected, but for the year+ that I've been into Warhammer, I've seen very, very few people buying Chaos models in general Daemons or Space Marines. While I can really only look at my local GW shop, I don't think the Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines has sold well at all.

That's probably why Chaos as a whole hasn't had really any support in a long time.

SG

I think part of the problem with Daemons not selling as well is because;
1. It's not a 'Competitive Friendly' army. Anyone who's aim is to win/do well in organised events, naturally will gravitate towards those armies that can be built with as much reliability & redundancy as possible within their lists.
Daemons on the other hand are the complete opposite of this! Even the most highly optimised Daemons list is still in part at the mercy of the Dice Gods during its pre-game set-ups. Likewise, even with say Fateweaver leading an Incursion detachment, it's still possible to get nothing but 'bad' to even catastrophic results on the Warpstorm table. (yes, it's really, really unlikely, but it's still possible!)

No one who's aiming for the top tables, especially in big tournaments with money/prizes on the line is going to readily go for such an army, even if that army has say 6-8 favourable match-ups compared to much more predictable armies that instead may have 1 or 2 very glaring awful match-ups. (even if/when those bad match-ups may be rather common.)

2. Daemons just have a terrible reputation...
We ruined 7th edition Fantasy that one summer. We still "broke" 8th edition even harder apparently.

We "don't belong" in 40k due to being a "fantasy army in a sci-fi shooting game". GK's murdered us horrendously back in 5th & early 6th.

Daemons are too "randumb", they take too long to do all their rolls, it's easy to get cheated, etc...

Only TFG's play Daemons because re-rolled 2++/Clown Car/50+ warp charges per phase/Flying Circus/unbeatable Incursion detachment, blah, blah, blah...



Now concerning CSM's, it's entirely because GW have not just left the entire model range to rot for a whole decade now, but also the fact that our rules have likewise been consistently among the game's worst outside of 1 single codex since 3rd edition!

Chaos Marines as a whole still try and play the game like it's 3rd edition. Our model line is second only to Sisters in both overall age AND lack of plastics/wargear options.

Everything about CSM's just screams, "Loyalists -10" in every way, and yet, despite being far more diverse in their overall organisation & character than Loyalists, CSM's get no fancy special snowflake rules, let alone even a basic distinction between Heresy-era Legion warbands vs. modern Renegades.