BBC wrote:
The FSB intelligence agency said two attempted incursions had taken place over the weekend and a Russian soldier and an FSB employee had been killed.
President Vladimir Putin vowed "further security measures" in response to Ukraine's "stupid and criminal" acts.
Ukraine's president described the accusations as "preposterous".
"Russian accusations against Ukraine of terrorism in occupied Crimea sound as preposterous and cynical as the statements of the Russian leadership about the absence of Russian troops in the Donbass [region of rebel-held eastern Ukraine]," Petro Poroshenko said.
"These fantasies are only a pretext for making more military threats against Ukraine," he added.
*SNIP*
Didn't copy whole article because it gets pretty long and is mostly a review of past events and conjecture.
I have to wonder if this was actually an attempt by Ukraine, or just an excuse by Russia to invade some more. Either way, I wish Putin would bugger off. Ukraine has enough problems without more Russian "liberation".
It's too bad the previous thread got locked because the US-born mods couldn't handle anymore news about allegations of human rights violations, shelling of the civilians during the ceasefire and also murder, rape and torture by their puppets from the ukrainian Nazis. Let's hope this thread will stay open.
‘Kiev has turned to terrorism’: Putin on foiled sabotage plot in Crimea
Kiev has turned to the “practice of terrorism” instead of trying to peacefully resolve Ukraine’s crisis, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in commenting on an FSB report that it had foiled terrorist attacks in Crimea plotted by Ukrainian intelligence.
Ukraine is “playing a dangerous game,” the Russian leader said when talking to reporters on Wednesday, while calling Kiev’s actions “stupid and criminal.”
Moscow cannot turn a blind eye to the deaths of its servicemen who were killed during special operations to prevent terrorist attacks in Crimea, Putin said.
Given that the Main Directorate of Intelligence of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine (HUR MOU) was allegedly behind the thwarted terrorist attacks in Crimea, it is “pointless” to meet with Ukraine’s current authorities to seek a solution to the country’s crisis, Putin said.
The leaders of Russia, Ukraine, France, and Germany were to meet in the so-called “Normandy format” to discuss the peace process in Ukraine on the sidelines of the upcoming G20 in China.
However, Kiev has demonstrated that it’s not interested in peaceful negotiations, the Russian president told reporters, adding that he would like to address the matter with Moscow’s American and European partners as well.
“I think it’s obvious that Kiev’s current authorities are not seeking for ways to solve problems through negotiations, but have turned to terrorism,” Putin said, adding that this new development is rather alarming.
Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) announced on Wednesday it had discovered a group of infiltrators in Crimea close to the Ukrainian border. Explosive devices and ammunition used by the Ukrainian Army’s special forces were discovered at the scene, while more attempts by Ukrainian raiding and terrorist groups to break through had been prevented by Russian forces this week, the FSB said.
Kiev refuted the FSB report of a foiled terrorist plot, and instead accused Moscow of provocation.
Stating that Ukraine "condemns terrorism in all its forms," Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko refuted accusations that Kiev's military had been plotting to organize attacks on the Russian peninsula. Having called Moscow's FSB reports "senseless and cynical," the Ukrainian leader said Kiev is "committed" to bring back Crimea through "political and diplomatic means."
Blaming the “escalation” on Russia, Ukraine’s permanent representative to the Council of Europe, Dmytro Kuleba, said on Twitter that Moscow “tests West’s reaction.”
Russian FSB foils terrorist attacks plotted by Ukrainian intel agents in Crimea
Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) has prevented terrorist attacks in Crimea that were planned by the Ukrainian Defense Ministry’s intelligence agency, the FSB said.
The Main Directorate of Intelligence of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine (HUR MOU) was preparing to target the Russian peninsula’s critical infrastructure, the FSB announced on Wednesday.
The infiltrators also planned to blow up a highway in the region at the time motorcades with local officials and federal authorities would have been driving through it, Rossiyskaya Gazeta reported.
A group of infiltrators was discovered near the town of Armyansk in northern Crimea near the Ukrainian border in a special FSB operation over the weekend, the agency said, adding that fire was exchanged as the terrorists were being apprehended.
FSB received a warning from Armyansk locals, who had reported on some suspicious people in military uniforms in their town, Rossiyskaya Gazeta said. Having responded to the call, an FSB task group detected some 20 people in the area, who were loading explosives and weapons from their hideout. Once the suspects noticed the Russian security forces, they immediately opened fire, shooting to kill, the newspaper said.
One FSB officer was killed, while at least one infiltrator was shot dead and several others injured when the officers returned fire.
Twenty home-made explosive devices equivalent to more than 40 kilos of TNT, as well as ammunition, shells, and other weapons used by the Ukrainian Army’s special forces were discovered at the scene.
Two more attempts by Ukrainian raiding and terrorist groups to breakthrough were prevented by Russian forces on Monday. Kiev’s armored vehicles provided covering fire for the groups from the Ukrainian side, the FSB said, adding that one Russian serviceman had been killed in that operation.
The suspected Kiev agents attempted to cross the border through a swamped lake of Sivash, Rossiyskaya Gazeta explained, saying that all overland areas connecting the peninsula to the mainland are thoroughly guarded by Russian border officers.
A network of agents from Ukraine’s chief intelligence directorate has been uncovered in Crimea, according to the FSB, which said it included both Ukrainian and Russian citizens that provided assistance in preparing terrorist acts.
Those suspects employed by Ukrainian intelligence are now giving their confessions, the FSB reported, adding that the captured group includes one of the organizers.
A criminal case has been opened and additional covert and investigative activities are being conducted in the region.
The thwarted acts of sabotage and terrorism were aimed at destabilizing the social and political situation on the peninsula ahead of both local and federal elections, the FSB said in its statement.
Ukraine’s General Staff has said the reports of groups raiding Crimea are provocations.
A Ukrainian defense intelligence spokesman refuted the FSB report, telling Reuters that the information was “fake.”
Meanwhile, security in the region has been tightened due to the discovery, the FSB announced, saying that additional security arrangements have been made near major infrastructure objects, in crowded places, and on the Russian-Ukrainian border.
Last year, electricity supplies to Crimea were cut off after a group supposedly led by several Ukrainian politicians used explosives to down a pylon in Ukraine’s Kherson Region. Radicals from the extreme Right Sector Ukrainian nationalist group and representatives of Crimean Tatar nationalist organizations continuously blocked attempts to restore the power line.
About two million Crimean residents were left partially or completely without power, prompting the Crimean Republic's authorities to pass an address on to the United Nations, asking it to recognize Ukraine’s “energy blockade” of the peninsula as violation of basic Human Rights and genocide.
Unfortunately, there has been little progress in implementing the Minsk Agreements, signed last year, mainly due to Kiev's unwillingness to fulfill its obligations, and its inability to deal with socio-economic problems or promote national accord and reconciliation.
As long as shooting continues in Donbass, Kiev tries to divert public attention from the alleged ‘achievements’ of Maidan and request additional funds from their Western sponsors.
Here are examples of the Minsk Agreements being grossly violated by Kiev:
1. It is clearly said in the Minsk Agreements that heavy weapons must be withdrawn from the contact line. However Ukrainian armed forces haven’t stopped shelling Donetsk and Lugansk, including the use of weapons that are supposed to have been withdrawn. This leads to civilian casualties and the destruction of property.
It is inappropriate to blame Lugansk and Donetsk for the escalation of tension, as it is the Ukrainian armed forces that are in control of the buffer zone and are moving dangerous heavy weapons there. The OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine has reported many times about the concentration of the Ukrainian forces along the contact line and the deployment of Ukrainian armed forces in Pavlopol, Pishchevik and Zaitsevo. On 26 February, 2016 OSCE observers reported that Ukrainian forces controlled a part of Shirokino in violation of the demilitarization agreement. Operations of the Ukrainian armed forces run contrary to the logic of the Minsk-II, resulting in the dangerous reduction of the distance between the conflicting parties.
2. On the first day of the withdrawal of artillery Kiev had to engage in dialogue, and start consulting with Donetsk and Lugansk representatives on the conditions for elections to be held in April on the basis of Ukrainian law and under OSCE oversight. The second date outlined in the document is 12 March, i.e. a month after the signing of the Minsk Agreements Kiev was required to enact a special status law adopting a resolution designating the territory that this law was supposed to cover. This hasn't been done. A law was passed, the territories marked, but the law said that it didn't apply to Donetsk and Lugansk.
3. The Minsk Agreements clearly say elections should be held in accordance with the OSCE criteria, one of which is to ensure that no one will be subjected to intimidation, harassment, etc. The statement by the Kiev authorities on "elections first, then amnesty" constitute a serious distortion of the sequence and logic of what was really agreed. In accordance with the OSCE elections criteria, the amnesty should be granted before the elections.
It is crucial to understand at long last that the only way to settle the Ukrainian crisis is by implementing the Minsk Agreements and a direct dialogue between the members of the Contact Group and its subgroups supported by a strong international assistance. If the West doesn't change its policy of justifying Kiev's violation of Minsk, a new wave of escalation in Eastern Ukraine is inevitable.
Ukrainian volunteer unit troops raped underage girls, filmed it on phones – MP
The mobile phones of commanders of the Tornado volunteer unit, which fought for Kiev in the conflict in eastern Ukraine, contained footage of rape of underage girls, Ukrainian MP, Tatyana Chronovol, has said.
“When the Tornado commanders were detained, their mobile phones were seized. There was some scary footage on those phones… footage of sex orgies and rape,” Chronovol said in an interview with Ukrainian broadcaster 112.
“There were even babies. As I understand the baby's mother was forced to do this under the threat of death of her child,” the Verkhovna Rada deputy stressed.
“There were rapes of underage girls” in the videos Chronovol said.
The shocking videos are now part of the case against the volunteer unit’s fighters, she stressed.
“They are not people, but animals,” the MP said of the Tornado troops and officers.
Chronovol represents the Narodny Front (People’s Front) party, which is the second largest in the Ukrainian parliament, forming a ruling coalition with President Petro Poroshenko’s Block.
Ukrainian prosecutors announced the arrest of eight fighters from the Tornado unit in mid-June.
They were charged with the kidnapping and torture of local residents in the suburbs; looting and gang raping a man in the suburbs of the town of Lisichansk in the south-eastern Lugansk Region.
According to the investigation, the volunteer troops installed a torture chamber in the basement of one of the local school buildings.
The Tornado unit was formed in October 2014 as part of Ukrainian Interior Ministry. It was linked to the Shakhtersk volunteer battalion, which was disbanded for systematic looting.
Atrocities committed by the nationalist volunteer battalions during the Ukrainian conflicts have been well-documented by international human rights groups and condemned by the United Nations.
In spring 2014, the Ukrainian military was sent to the south-east of the country after people in Donetsk and Lugansk Regions refused to recognize the new coup-imposed government in the capital.
Nearly 9,500 people were killed and over 22,100 injured during the two years of fighting, according to UN data.
Ukrainian Neo-Nazis mark anniversary of Galicia SS division with torchlit march
Torch flames and ultra-nationalist insignia and slogans were visible on the streets of the western Ukrainian city of Ivano-Frankovsk as neo-Nazis marched to commemorate the 73th anniversary of the creation of the Ukrainian SS division.
Chanting nationalistic slogans, around 100 members of the civil wing of the far-right Azov Battalion held the torchlit procession to honor those who fought for the Nazis against the Soviet Union in World War II.
Activists marching under a large banner kept on shouting “glory” to those who served in the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, recognized as patriots by the current Ukrainian regime.
Following the procession, clergymen from the Uniate church, which acknowledges papal supremacy but retains its own orthodox liturgy, held a memorial service where they prayed for the souls of those guilty of butchering their own population.
The SS division also known as the 1st Galician was a military unit comprising over 80,000 volunteers from the Ukrainian region of Galicia. Created in 1943, as the Soviet Union was gaining the upper hand in a war against the Third Reich, it was largely destroyed in the battle of Brody, a major Red Army operation to force the Nazi forces from Ukraine and Eastern Poland.
Heinrich Himmler, Reichsführer and the head of SS, once said in a speech to soldiers from the division, “your homeland has become so much more beautiful since you have lost – on our initiative, I must say – those residents who were so often a dirty blemish on Galicia’s good name, namely the Jews...I know that if I ordered you to liquidate the Poles...I would be giving you permission to do what you are eager to do anyway.”
Following defeat, the SS Ukrainian division became part of the Ukrainian National Army united under single command against the Soviet Union. After Berlin fell, the Ukrainian unit surrendered to the Western Allies by May 10, 1945.
The division has been accused of carrying out numerous atrocities, including the destruction of Polish communities in Western Ukraine and the massacre of civilians in “anti-guerrilla” operations, although the Galicia has never been internationally recognized as guilty of any war crimes.
The last paragraph means that the majority of members of 14th SS-Volunteer Division "Galicia" lived their lives happily in USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand as "ukrainian communities" until they started dying from the old age.
"There is Fascism in ukraine." (c) Any Western politician.
Yaraton wrote: It's too bad the previous thread got locked because the US-born mods couldn't handle anymore news about allegations of human rights violations, shelling of the civilians during the ceasefire and also murder, rape and torture by their puppets from the ukrainian Nazis.
It's almost like Uwe Boll is here posting in our thread, except he's replaced his gigantic undeserved sense of self worth with Donald Trump levels of completely unaware.
Once you get over the shock that such people actually exist, it can be quite entertaining *sips tea*
Or at least what Russia claims has happened. Not same as what has happened. No other party has verified that.
Well, considering that it's far more clear what's going in Crimea looking from Finland I let you voice your version of events.
Your sarcasm is failing big time. Canada is obviously even more easy place to see what's happening...
But if you believe one source as The Truth welcome to easily fooled life.
Until there's confirmations from MULTIPLE sources then regardless of who is the initial source it's highly dubious. Especially when said source has vested interest to say lies. I don't believe russia saying ukraine attacked and I don't believ ukraine saying they didn't attack.
...
President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia accused the Ukrainian government on Wednesday of plotting terrorist attacks in Crimea, and threatened to respond. His Ukrainian counterpart called the accusations “fantasies.”
Mr. Putin, speaking at the Kremlin, said two Russian servicemen had been killed while confronting people he described as the plotters.
“There is no doubt that we will not let these things pass,” Mr. Putin said in remarks broadcast on state television.
“But I would like to turn to our American and European partners,” he said. “I think it is clear now that today’s Kiev government is not looking for ways to solve problems by negotiations, but is resorting to terror. This is a very worrying thing.”
The Russian president accused the Ukrainian intelligence services of trying to stage attacks in Crimea to distract attention from their country’s economic problems.
“The attempt to provoke violence, to provoke conflict is nothing else but the desire to divert public opinion from the people who captured power in Kiev, continue keeping it, and continue robbing its own people,” Mr. Putin said. “This is a very dangerous game.”
...
Sounds like he's trying to create a casus belli... no?
The cynic in me has a hard time believing the Russian story. There's very little reason for Ukraine to engage in the kind of activity they are being accused of here, and if actual firefights with Russian forces are occurring that's going to dramatically fail for Ukraine and they know it. Russia doesnt want the conflict resolved or escalated, they want it frozen. This prevents Ukraine from moving on with integration into the EU and possible NATO, and keeps them under the Russian thumb, but without the cost of a full scale war. Gotta keep the embers burning but dont let it fully catch light.
On the other hand, it's clear the Ukrainian government cant handle or control everything either and it's possiblr that rogue individuals engaged in this kind of an attack on their own.
My gut feeling is that this is either fabricated or some stupid incident in the field is being made out to be something significantly more dramatic for propaganda purposes, but you cant ever totally discount the possibility of some of Ukraines own crazies having actually tried something either.
Ah. So the time has finally come. All hail the new Ukraine thread!
Okay, now to the point, Russia isn't going to invade Ukraine. Saying or suggesting that is silly, nonsensical and irrational fearmongering. If Putin would have wanted that, he'd already have done so years ago when he had a great opportunity. Russia doesn't want to outright conquer or annex (parts of) Ukraine. It would cost way too money, considering how poor and neglected Ukrainian infrastructure is compared to Russia. Putin is happy with the current situation
Secondly, the terrorist attacks against Crimea are real. Suggesting otherwise is nothing but engaging in nonsensical conspiracy theories and russophobic propaganda. Ukrainians being arrested or killed while trying to sabotage Crimean infrastructure happens a lot more often, but normally it doesn't make the (international) news. This only makes the news because an FSB guy got killed this time. People who say that it is fake have short memories. Did they already forget when the Ukrainians blew up the power lines to Crimea? Or when they blocked the Crimean canal? Now that the Crimean people have proven to be too resilient to be swayed by such banderite terror, bomb attacks are just the next step. The ukrop will do anything they can to take Crimea, even if it brings ruin upon themselves, such is their nature. But Crimea is our land, and the Crimean people will never give it up. Adversity has only hardened our resolve, and if they are really stupid enough to actually explode a bomb, reconcialliation will become impossible.
Vaktathi wrote: The cynic in me has a hard time believing the Russian story. There's very little reason for Ukraine to engage in the kind of activity they are being accused of here, and if actual firefights with Russian forces are occurring that's going to dramatically fail for Ukraine and they know it. Russia doesnt want the conflict resolved or escalated, they want it frozen. This prevents Ukraine from moving on with integration into the EU and possible NATO, and keeps them under the Russian thumb, but without the cost of a full scale war. Gotta keep the embers burning but dont let it fully catch light.
On the other hand, it's clear the Ukrainian government cant handle or control everything either and it's possiblr that rogue individuals engaged in this kind of an attack on their own.
Yeah, these people trying to sabotage Crimean infrastructure aren't official Ukrainian agents, they are not controlled by the Ukrainian government. They are just nationalist thugs who do what they do because "GLORY TO UKRAINE!, screw the Russians, screw Crimea!" Ukraine has no control over them. The Ukrainian government might not be the smartest ones around, but they know better than to provoke Russia like that. Common sense that is absent in nationalists of any kind.
Sounds like he's trying to create a casus belli... no?
Hoping for Russia during the Olympics to answer for the deaths of its two servicemen (one FSB officer, one military soldier) with a full-scale military action in the face of a terrorist attack would be something the ukranian Nazi government would dearly wanted to achieve, so the World would again remember about them and put them in the news instead of Russia and Syria kicking ISIS ass in Syria, Turkey getting closer with Russia after a failed military coupe and a refugee crises in Europe.
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djones520 wrote: Was reading a story the other day that alleged that Russia was conducting a military build up on the new border. Moving new armored units up.
Russia is planning for the tree armoured brigades in the Western part of it as an answer for the new NATO bases in the Eastern Europe. Does it also mean the Russians are planning for a Victory parade again in Berlin?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: "GLORY TO UKRAINE!, screw the Russians, screw Crimea!"
-so they are freedom fighters then.
Russia is planning for the tree armoured brigades in the Western part of it as an answer for the new NATO bases in the Eastern Europe. Does it also mean the Russians are planning for a Victory parade again in Berlin?
Death to the Merkelites? We will stop them on the Don! We will stop them on the Dneiper. We will stop them in Volgagrod!
Russia is planning for the tree armoured brigades in the Western part of it as an answer for the new NATO bases in the Eastern Europe. Does it also mean the Russians are planning for a Victory parade again in Berlin?
Death to the Merkelites? We will stop them on the Don! We will stop them on the Dneiper. We will stop them in Volgagrod!
Yeah, I remember the previous attempt by the NATO predecessor. It ended up like that:
In another news... ukranian media was able to confirm through the organization of the War vets in ukraine the identity of the captured ukranian terrorist. Apparently he indeed previously served during his time of in the 37th Reconnaissance Battalion of the ukranian army. Meanwhile the UN Security Counsel is having a closed secession about the situation in Crimea.
Vaktathi wrote: The cynic in me has a hard time believing the Russian story. There's very little reason for Ukraine to engage in the kind of activity they are being accused of here, and if actual firefights with Russian forces are occurring that's going to dramatically fail for Ukraine and they know it. Russia doesnt want the conflict resolved or escalated, they want it frozen. This prevents Ukraine from moving on with integration into the EU and possible NATO, and keeps them under the Russian thumb, but without the cost of a full scale war. Gotta keep the embers burning but dont let it fully catch light.
On the other hand, it's clear the Ukrainian government cant handle or control everything either and it's possiblr that rogue individuals engaged in this kind of an attack on their own.
Yeah, these people trying to sabotage Crimean infrastructure aren't official Ukrainian agents, they are not controlled by the Ukrainian government. They are just nationalist thugs who do what they do because "GLORY TO UKRAINE!, screw the Russians, screw Crimea!" Ukraine has no control over them. The Ukrainian government might not be the smartest ones around, but they know better than to provoke Russia like that. Common sense that is absent in nationalists of any kind.
Yeah, donkey-caves doing stupid things make the most sense for something like this if it went down the way Russia is claiming, as inept as the Ukrainian government often is, it's not *that* stupid.
Yeah, these people trying to sabotage Crimean infrastructure aren't official Ukrainian agents, they are not controlled by the Ukrainian government. They are just nationalist thugs who do what they do because "GLORY TO UKRAINE!, screw the Russians, screw Crimea!" Ukraine has no control over them. The Ukrainian government might not be the smartest ones around, but they know better than to provoke Russia like that. Common sense that is absent in nationalists of any kind.
Just to provide a counter point, it's possible that their warcry might just be 'Glory to Crimea, out with the invaders'. I've noticed an increase in Crimean nationalism as well, at least here on the internet.
It does look like someone is trying to establish casus belli however. With Russia and the Ukraine though, without further data it's hard to say who. Too many groups stand to benefit in some way.
The head of the Main Military Intelligence Directorate of Ukraine's Defense Minister Valery Kondratiuk says there is evidence that there was a gun battle between soldiers of the armed forces of the Russian Federation and Russian border troops of the Federal Security Service (FSB) in the northern part of Russia-occupied Crimea.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has unexpectedly dismissed his chief of staff Sergei Ivanov.
Is Putin down in the polls or something over there? I guess a bit of Living Space could boost him a few points, or maybe just across the border from the occupied zone's a nice piece of beach the tourist moguls are after (hotel prices have soared in Crimea recently).
The head of the Main Military Intelligence Directorate of Ukraine's Defense Minister Valery Kondratiuk says there is evidence that there was a gun battle between soldiers of the armed forces of the Russian Federation and Russian border troops of the Federal Security Service (FSB) in the northern part of Russia-occupied Crimea.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has unexpectedly dismissed his chief of staff Sergei Ivanov.
Is Putin down in the polls or something over there? I guess a bit of Living Space could boost him a few points, or maybe just across the border from the occupied zone's a nice piece of beach the tourist moguls are after (hotel prices have soared in Crimea recently).
Russia vs Russia? An intriguing move there.
The Polish are big into there prepping at the moment as well...
Probably nothing, but its not like Russia hasn't had a dozen and more failed coups which've been quietly hidden under the rug by the current administration.
Wyrmalla wrote: Probably nothing, but its not like Russia hasn't had a dozen and more failed coups which've been quietly hidden under the rug by the current administration.
Kremlin politics are as inpenetrable as ever. Most likely Ivanov and Putin just had a disagreement over some key issue, causing his demotion.
The Russian soldiers fighting the Russian border guard is just the Ukrainian "intelligence" service being their silly selves. You could write a book about all of the weird claims they have made in the past year alone.The "intelligence" service nowadays mostly seems to be staffed by incompetent government cronies who see armies of Russian soldiers hidden in every bush and a maniacally cackling Putin behind every tree. I suspect they use it as a tactic to distract the people from Ukraine's horrible situation and shift the blame of their own failing leadership.
Iron_Captain wrote: The Russian soldiers fighting the Russian border guard is just the Ukrainian "intelligence" service being their silly selves.
I seem to remember hearing about it too, but in passing from a Russian source. I just dismissed it as a friendly fire incident, but considering what happened next... jurisdictional dispute gone bad or did the army catch FSB at exactly the wrong moment in a false flag op? Both have led to blue on blue shootouts in the past in Russia.
Iron_Captain wrote: The Russian soldiers fighting the Russian border guard is just the Ukrainian "intelligence" service being their silly selves.
I seem to remember hearing about it too, but in passing from a Russian source. I just dismissed it as a friendly fire incident, but considering what happened next... jurisdictional dispute gone bad or did the army catch FSB at exactly the wrong moment in a false flag op? Both have led to blue on blue shootouts in the past in Russia.
Well, some of the many armed branches of the Russian state do have fierce rivalries with one another (and everyone hates and fears the FSB and its operatives), but it is really rare for that to actually lead to armed violence. Usually it is just drunken bar brawls (deaths unfortenately aren't all that uncommon). It is not entirely possible that this was a friendly fire incident during a secret Russian operation, but considering the place and timing (and the importance and sensitiveness of the operation that would imply) that seems very unlikely. Russia's secret services are competent enough not to make such basic mistakes as not informing their own border guard.
More likely the friendly fire story is just an Ukrainian attempt to absolve themselves from blame and distance themselves from the situation created by either Ukrainian government operatives or more likely Ukrainian radicals acting on their own.
Iron_Captain wrote: It is not entirely possible that this was a friendly fire incident during a secret Russian operation, but considering the place and timing (and the importance and sensitiveness of the operation that would imply) that seems very unlikely. Russia's secret services are competent enough not to make such basic mistakes as not informing their own border guard.
Unless your targets *are* the boarder guard. Let me bounce this off you and see if it sounds unreasonable.
FSB, for whatever reason, are out to heat things up in a way that makes Putin look good and the Ukrainians look bad. So, a boarder patrol will be ambushed by 'Ukrainian Special Forces'. The boarder patrol though, either by good luck or good judgement, spots the ambush in advance, and turn it around on the FSB, believing them to be genuine Ukrainian forces.
Also, I'll point out that most professional armies are just that, and FF still happens.
Iron_Captain wrote: It is not entirely possible that this was a friendly fire incident during a secret Russian operation, but considering the place and timing (and the importance and sensitiveness of the operation that would imply) that seems very unlikely. Russia's secret services are competent enough not to make such basic mistakes as not informing their own border guard.
Unless your targets *are* the boarder guard. Let me bounce this off you and see if it sounds unreasonable.
FSB, for whatever reason, are out to heat things up in a way that makes Putin look good and the Ukrainians look bad. So, a boarder patrol will be ambushed by 'Ukrainian Special Forces'. The boarder patrol though, either by good luck or good judgement, spots the ambush in advance, and turn it around on the FSB, believing them to be genuine Ukrainian forces.
It sounds unlikely, it is unneccesarily complicated and risky. In such a case it'd be easier for the FSB to stage a bomb attack or something like that (and it'd be even better to just let an actual Ukrainian or Tatar terrorist do their attack instead of arresting them). And in this case the guys who were arrested and the manner in which they were arrested makes it an even more unlikely scenario. It was a succesful FSB raid on a group of infiltrators, the border guard was not even involved in it at any point. I'd also like to point out that without any supporting evidence, it would be little more than a conspiracy theory. Skirmishes on the Crimean border are far from uncommon (this one only making the news because an FSB officer got killed), so I find the infiltrator scenario far more likely, especially since there have been plenty of infiltrators before (like just recently they arrested a Tatar network who had re-entered Crimea to stage terrorist attacks, supported by the Ukrainian SBU).
Iron_Captain wrote: It sounds unlikely, it is unneccesarily complicated and risky. In such a case it'd be easier for the FSB to stage a bomb attack or something like that (and it'd be even better to just let an actual Ukrainian or Tatar terrorist do their attack instead of arresting them). And in this case the guys who were arrested and the manner in which they were arrested makes it an even more unlikely scenario. It was a succesful FSB raid on a group of infiltrators, the border guard was not even involved in it at any point. I'd also like to point out that without any supporting evidence, it would be little more than a conspiracy theory. Skirmishes on the Crimean border are far from uncommon (this one only making the news because an FSB officer got killed), so I find the infiltrator scenario far more likely, especially since there have been plenty of infiltrators before (like just recently they arrested a Tatar network who had re-entered Crimea to stage terrorist attacks, supported by the Ukrainian SBU).
A bombing though would make Putin look unable to protect the public. And, while it's complicated, this exact plan has happened before, in South America, under guidance from the then-KGB and the still-CIA. When executed successfully, it's much more effective than a bombing.
That said, it's just me speculating on something that may have happened. And you're confusing the report about the boarder patrol/FSB shootout with the reported successful FSB raid. My understanding was these were two separate events.
This is the amazing moment that army soldiers were caught on camera playing Pokemon GO in a war zone.
Gun-toting Ukrainian army soldiers were filmed playing the virtual game on their smartphones on the front line in Eastern Ukraine.
Two young soldiers are seen glued to their phones as they wander around in search of Pokemon characters as two colleagues, armed with machine guns, keep watch.
One of the soldiers, identified as Nikolay Nagornyi, says on camera: 'Rare and unique species of Pokemon have been found here in the Dokuchaevsk area.
'We even saw Pikachu here yesterday. We invite everyone to join us and take part in searching and hunting for these rare Pokemon.'
Or at least what Russia claims has happened. Not same as what has happened. No other party has verified that.
Rt is atrocious for pro Russian propoganda, I would be carefull about what you take as fact from that station. As intact most stations, but Rt is probly the worst.
That said, it's just me speculating on something that may have happened. And you're confusing the report about the boarder patrol/FSB shootout with the reported successful FSB raid. My understanding was these were two separate events.
No, they are the same event. The second one (FSB raid) is the official report on the event, the first (FSB vs Border Guard) is what the Ukrainian government says what happened. But as I said, this kind of thing happens almost weekly on the Crimean border, so maybe all of it is true. Or none of it. It happens so often it is becoming hard for me to keep track on what exactly happened when.
Yeah, I remember the previous attempt by the NATO predecessor....
!!
I think you need to broaden your reading as quite clearly where ever you are getting your news and history from is horrifically biased.
Well, the Ukraine isn't helping their case none when the insignia of the Azov Battalion is labeled with Germanic occultic symbols favored by the NSDAP and the SS.
Well, the Ukraine isn't helping their case none when the insignia of the Azov Battalion is labeled with Germanic occultic symbols favored by the NSDAP and the SS.
Well, the Azov Battalion no longer actually exists, having been gutted and rebuilt as a full regiment of the Ukrainian National Guard, the members subjected to extensive vetting. Part of their new job is clearing mine fields, so someone did not like them. The badge is more or less the same though.
Still, calling NATO the successor to Nazi Germany while completely ignoring the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is just wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start.
Can we avoid the he said she said about which side are the biggest Nazis and whataboutism which killed the last thread m'kay?
With that, queue whataboutism:
Russia’s War in Ukraine: The Medals and Treacherous Numbers
August 31, 2016
By Bellingcat
Translations: Русский
The full report can be downloaded here stock_save_pdf
The war in eastern Ukraine is known under multiple names; most often formulations similar to Ukrainian civil war or Ukrainian conflict are still used to describe the war. The implied characteristic as solely internal Ukrainian conflict is heavily disputed and an active Russian participation is widely accepted. While there is now plentiful evidence documenting a direct and decisive participation of Russian servicemen and the Russian armed forces in the fighting in eastern Ukraine since summer 2014, it is however not possible to support the various claims about the size of the Russian involvement using public available information.
Given the nature of open source evidence, it is near impossible to provide an exact number of Russian servicemen participating in the fighting in eastern Ukraine only relying on this type of information. The open source research done by @Askai707 and InformNapalm strongly suggest that – at minimum – hundreds of Russian servicemen were involved in the fighting so far. The most direct evidence could be provided by the Russian bureaucracy. However, such an information is also most likely a Russian state secret and not publicly available. Other information, similar to official statistics, would also allow an estimation of the number of involved Russian servicemen. Such information is available in previously published individual cases of Russian servicemen.
Previous published analyses identified Russian servicemen who published imagery of awarded medals. This imagery is valuable because most of the higher Russian medals have a consecutive numbering, explicitly stating the number of medals awarded so far. Therefore, imagery from two medals awarded at different dates allows us to calculate the number of awarded medals between both dates. Awards of four medals are analyzed in this report. It is possible to demonstrate that the number of awarded medals, compared to the years before 2014, suddenly and strongly increased in 2014 and 2015. The large number of awarded medals “For Distinction in Combat”, 4300 awards between 07.11.2014 and 18.02.2016, strongly suggests larger combat operations with active Russian military involvement in this period. In sum, the data suggests that more than ten thousand medals of all four considered types were awarded in the considered period. Therefore, it can be directly concluded that:
Thousands of Russian servicemen participated in 2014 and 2015 in combat operations and were awarded with medals for their actions in these operations.
Because of the evidence presented in preceding reports documenting the presence of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in eastern Ukraine and its participating in the fighting, and because it is a rather unrealistic assumption that every Russian serviceman participating or involved in the fighting in eastern Ukraine has been awarded with one of the discussed medals, it is possible to conclude:
Most likely far more than ten thousand Russian servicemen participated in combat operations in eastern Ukraine.
Most likely tens of thousands Russian servicemen participated in or contributed to the fighting in eastern Ukraine.
In sum, the findings of this report support the claims that thousands of Russian servicemen were active in eastern Ukraine. With these findings, it is also possible to strongly increase the lower data-based estimate of Russian servicemen involved in the fighting in eastern Ukraine using only open source information.
http://www.bellingca...usNumbers-4.pdf
Wyrmalla wrote: Can we avoid the he said she said about which side are the biggest Nazis and whataboutism which killed the last thread m'kay?
With that, queue whataboutism:
Russia’s War in Ukraine: The Medals and Treacherous Numbers
August 31, 2016
By Bellingcat
Translations: Русский
The full report can be downloaded here stock_save_pdf
The war in eastern Ukraine is known under multiple names; most often formulations similar to Ukrainian civil war or Ukrainian conflict are still used to describe the war. The implied characteristic as solely internal Ukrainian conflict is heavily disputed and an active Russian participation is widely accepted. While there is now plentiful evidence documenting a direct and decisive participation of Russian servicemen and the Russian armed forces in the fighting in eastern Ukraine since summer 2014, it is however not possible to support the various claims about the size of the Russian involvement using public available information.
Given the nature of open source evidence, it is near impossible to provide an exact number of Russian servicemen participating in the fighting in eastern Ukraine only relying on this type of information. The open source research done by @Askai707 and InformNapalm strongly suggest that – at minimum – hundreds of Russian servicemen were involved in the fighting so far. The most direct evidence could be provided by the Russian bureaucracy. However, such an information is also most likely a Russian state secret and not publicly available. Other information, similar to official statistics, would also allow an estimation of the number of involved Russian servicemen. Such information is available in previously published individual cases of Russian servicemen.
Previous published analyses identified Russian servicemen who published imagery of awarded medals. This imagery is valuable because most of the higher Russian medals have a consecutive numbering, explicitly stating the number of medals awarded so far. Therefore, imagery from two medals awarded at different dates allows us to calculate the number of awarded medals between both dates. Awards of four medals are analyzed in this report. It is possible to demonstrate that the number of awarded medals, compared to the years before 2014, suddenly and strongly increased in 2014 and 2015. The large number of awarded medals “For Distinction in Combat”, 4300 awards between 07.11.2014 and 18.02.2016, strongly suggests larger combat operations with active Russian military involvement in this period. In sum, the data suggests that more than ten thousand medals of all four considered types were awarded in the considered period. Therefore, it can be directly concluded that:
Thousands of Russian servicemen participated in 2014 and 2015 in combat operations and were awarded with medals for their actions in these operations.
Because of the evidence presented in preceding reports documenting the presence of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in eastern Ukraine and its participating in the fighting, and because it is a rather unrealistic assumption that every Russian serviceman participating or involved in the fighting in eastern Ukraine has been awarded with one of the discussed medals, it is possible to conclude:
Most likely far more than ten thousand Russian servicemen participated in combat operations in eastern Ukraine.
Most likely tens of thousands Russian servicemen participated in or contributed to the fighting in eastern Ukraine.
In sum, the findings of this report support the claims that thousands of Russian servicemen were active in eastern Ukraine. With these findings, it is also possible to strongly increase the lower data-based estimate of Russian servicemen involved in the fighting in eastern Ukraine using only open source information.
http://www.bellingca...usNumbers-4.pdf
Not..... entirely conclusive but a strong indicator.
I don't believe any supply system is that well audited to have all the medals go out in consecutive order, but given the circumstances its a moot point.
It's quite humorous to hear Putin and the Russian cronies complain about Ukranians firing on their troops while Russian troops have been fighting in Ukraine since this all started.
Oh wait, sorry, while they were on holiday.
I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.
KTG17 wrote: It's quite humorous to hear Putin and the Russian cronies complain about Ukranians firing on their troops while Russian troops have been fighting in Ukraine since this all started.
Oh wait, sorry, while they were on holiday.
I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.
I'm sure the guys at the top are laughing all the way, but you can see right here on Dakka that there are plenty that buy into it.
KTG17 wrote: I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.
I read a really interesting comment about Scientology one time. A former Scientologist explained that you buy in, piece by piece, to the whole system. Your social and economic well-being becomes dependant on the group, so you will accept anything they tell you. So when they clear you to find out about the really stupid Xenu stuff you just accept it. You don't believe it, but you accept it.
The distinction there explains what happens, I think.
Russian troops are training for a "hypothetical" situation where they involve themselves with a "terrorist" state fighting over annexed lands in the near future. Could just be an attempt to confuse the Ukrainians by acting like they're about to invade again, but rather just going back to letting the locals continue with their stalemate (as they've done with most of the other fictional states they've created in occupied territory).
Russian servicemen will train to block the Kerch Strait and gas condensate field in the annexed Crimea, the Russian Ministry of Defense press service reported on Wednesday, August 31.
“Formations of various attack forces from the Black Sea Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla will hold a series of trainings in the waters of the sea, aiming to defeat a hypothetical enemy and suppress an attempt to lift a blockade of the Kerch Strait and one of the gas condensate fields, and will also train to free a border guard ship seized by hypothetical terrorists,” the statement reads.
It is also reported that organizational training is being carried out in subdivisions, platoons and territorial defense units in the framework of mobilization exercises and military trainings with soldiers on reserve duty.
“Readiness of a number of industrial enterprises for military tasks, such as supply and repair of weapons and military equipment will be checked," the Russian Defense Ministry noted.
The Russian Armed Forces military drill began on August 25 and will last until August 31, Minister of Defense Sergey Shoygu stated. Among the declared objectives is an assessment of the army’s ability to quickly build up combat readiness in the southwest direction.
Russian military transport aircraft have moved special task units from northwest Russia to the landfills of the Southern Military district. There were 20 Il-76 aircrafts involved in the combat readiness tests.
On August 26, there were 15 combat ships from the Black Sea Fleet and 10 ships from the Caspian Flotilla that left the port to test their combat readiness.
Russian massive military drills on Ukrainian borders give Putin the opportunity to attack, which will be impossible after a month
Russian journalist and military expert Pavel Felgengauer in his text for the online-media "Apostrophe" explained why the full-scale Russian military attack on Ukraine may start in the near future.
The author of the article states that on Saturday August 27th, crews of aerospace defence forces of the Russian Western and Central military districts started the relocation of aviation equipment to operational airfields in the Southern Military district to participate in a sudden check of combat readiness of troops. This was reported by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and was reasoned by involvement in the large-scale military exercises near the border with Ukraine. The number of Russian troops involved in a ‘sudden inspection of combat readiness' is about 100 thousand troops. According to the Russian military expert Pavel Felgengauer, military preparations logically say that a large-scale conflict with Ukraine may start within the next few weeks.
The author explains further: Russian troops are on 'full alert' and are moving towards the border of Ukrainehaving already deployed a large amount of combat weapons costing Russia a sizable amount of money to maintain.
"Sure, it may be just saber-rattling, but it is very clear that we should expect a fully-fledged armed conflict, logically begining in the next few weeks. If it didn't start the whole procedure makes no sense because there is no reasonable explanation why this was organized in the first place, there are serious amounts of forces in place already – with real bombs, missiles, torpedoes," – Felgengauer states.
At this given moment in time, Russia has trained reservists in significant numbers, so there is no need in mobilization. Without it Kremlin is able to raise more than 100 thousand troops.
So-called "separatist" forces in Donbas are already lead by Russian generals, having logistic support from the Southern Military District of Russian armed forces which in fact belong to them, states the expert. They themselves (seperatist forces) are worth very little and are unable to crack the Ukrainian defense – only to starting the fight.
Based on given data the expert calls he current situation "a very dangerous situation".
"But will there be a war – we'll see, there is very little time left for guess work… with the given situation, Russia is trying to achieve a strategic and tactical surprise. And if she does not start now – then it will be too late. One would need to turn off full-scale operations in October due to the rains that start and of the next draft of conscipts into the Russian army (it would mean the demobilization of current wave of conscripts and having to train new ones - UT)." – stressed Felgengauer.
In the Interview for "Sobesednik" Felgengauer supports the possibility of a Russian attack due to the wider international situation.
"Presidential election in America, "lame duck" (US president, who will soon leave his position without the possibility of re-election – UT) Obama is not interfering and it is clear that he will not interfere in the near future. So now it's a unique situation: Europe is split with BrExit, even major new sanctions would be difficult to reconcile, not to mention the more serious (actions – UT). So the temptation for (Putin) would be to act now… they will still be under fire in Donbass region, tensions will remain, but the main (Ukraine wide - UT) war – may happen right now or we should be thinking about the following year. So... if we're lucky enough, we still can get by," – expert summarized.
Freakazoitt wrote: Crimea sucks a lot of finance , but (so far) almost gives nothing.
And the tourism industry there's tanked too. Locals (and Russians) complain that the cost of even basic things is ridiculous. The number of foreigners fighting there has plummeted (20% of all soldiers is what I've read), not to mention Russia's pulled out most of its troops in a lot of areas to leave the locals to fight. Almost like the whole war was just a way of securing that naval base and clipping Ukrainian dissent, rather than lofty notions of national identity... (though as ever, you could say the same about all the occupied territories. They're so important to Moscow in the short term, but a decade later they're just another backwater, not to say Crimea was much to begin with)
KTG17 wrote:It's quite humorous to hear Putin and the Russian cronies complain about Ukranians firing on their troops while Russian troops have been fighting in Ukraine since this all started.
Oh wait, sorry, while they were on holiday.
I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.
djones520 wrote:
KTG17 wrote: It's quite humorous to hear Putin and the Russian cronies complain about Ukranians firing on their troops while Russian troops have been fighting in Ukraine since this all started.
Oh wait, sorry, while they were on holiday.
I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.
I'm sure the guys at the top are laughing all the way, but you can see right here on Dakka that there are plenty that buy into it.
sebster wrote:
KTG17 wrote: I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.
I read a really interesting comment about Scientology one time. A former Scientologist explained that you buy in, piece by piece, to the whole system. Your social and economic well-being becomes dependant on the group, so you will accept anything they tell you. So when they clear you to find out about the really stupid Xenu stuff you just accept it. You don't believe it, but you accept it.
The distinction there explains what happens, I think.
God, you guys are just so frustrating. Are you really comparing Russia to scientology or suggesting all Russians are brainwashed? Without looking critically at yourselves and your own societies first? If so, you guys are the brainwashed ones here. Now stop deluding yourself with your self-righteousness and ignorance and go do some goddamn research before dismissing different opinions. Maybe learn a thing about Russia or Russian culture first before making a comment on it? But maybe I should not blame it on you. After all, the ignorance and contempt of other cultures combined with a delusion of superiority and "being right" is the hallmark of the Anglo-Saxon cultural worldview.
And about Russian soldiers in Ukraine, everyone (at least in Russia) knows and accepts that there were Russian soldiers deployed to Ukraine. But as long as there is no solid evidence, the Russian government can continue to deny their involvement, which is better for international relations. It is elementary level diplomacy, really. Don't know why it is so hard for you guys to get it.
Freakazoitt wrote: Crimea sucks a lot of finance , but (so far) almost gives nothing.
What about great beaches and scenic views?
But it is true. Crimea does not have much to give. It is really poor and infrastructure and industry is badly maintained and very outdated. Resolving those problems will take many more years and a lot more money. And it is saying a lot about Ukraine that Crimea actually used to be one of its richest regions.
Oh Iron_Captain, we're pretty well informed and DO get it. That's why no one likes Russia.
As for international relations I am not sure who you think they are fooling. Belarus maybe? And that is the hysterical part, because everyone knows better, but either Putin and his cronies are deluded into thinking they are fooling the world (which they are not), or they are convinced they can fool the Russian people (which they probably are), because they keep saying the same crap over and over again.
On top of that, this is the same government that declares all Russian military deaths during 'peace time' state secrets?????????????? Simply to keep the Russian people from knowing what his little war is costing them. What a shame to the families who lose their loved ones, and the lack of recognition the conscripts get for dying for his little game.
Yes, I know you are going to follow that up with some matter of fact answer that its a brilliant move on Putin's part, rather than realize to the rest of us how fethed up that is to do to your own people.
And since there is no real freedom of the press over there, there is no one to openly challenge them.
KTG17 wrote: Oh Iron_Captain, we're pretty well informed and DO get it. That's why no one likes Russia.
As for international relations I am not sure who you think they are fooling. Belarus maybe? And that is the hysterical part, because everyone knows better, but either Putin and his cronies are deluded into thinking they are fooling the world (which they are not), or they are convinced they can fool the Russian people (which they probably are), because they keep saying the same crap over and over again.
On top of that, this is the same government that declares all Russian military deaths during 'peace time' state secrets?????????????? Simply to keep the Russian people from knowing what his little war is costing them. What a shame to the families who lose their loved ones, and the lack of recognition the conscripts get for dying for his little game.
Yes, I know you are going to follow that up with some matter of fact answer that its a brilliant move on Putin's part, rather than realize to the rest of us how fethed up that is to do to your own people.
And since there is no real freedom of the press over there, there is no one to openly challenge them.
Keep drinking the kool-aid, buddy.
You say you get it but then ask who we think we are fooling? lol This never was about fooling people.
And no freedom of press? Clearly you have never actually been to Russia then. Well-informed, my ass.
Probably, yes. But I rather have Russian oligarchs than the Ukrainian ones we just kicked out. In Russia, oligarchs are still controlled by the state. In Ukraine, oligarchs are the state
Iron_Captain wrote: . In Russia, oligarchs are still controlled by the state. In Ukraine, oligarchs are the state
Cap, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but....
It's mostly a choice between pro Putin Oligarchs (Russia) and Anti-Putin Oligarchs (Ukraine).
No. In Russia the real power is with the chekists. Oligarchs in Russia all have to dance to Putin's tune (or else they are imprisoned or exiled). In Ukraine it is the reverse. In Ukraine all of the government is controlled by the oligarchs and Poroshenko is little more than a strawman. Unlike the Russian state, the Ukrainian state is unable to oppose the oligarchs because it depends on funding from them and because the oligarchs have control over the police, the army and other armed groups (who again, are mostly funded by individual oligarchs rather than by the state).
Iron Captain makes a fair point. Putin has the oligarchs at his beck and call, while the Ukrainian government is largely inept and the Oligarchs are the ones that get things done.
That said, one could also make the case that Putin is something of an indirect "supreme oligarch", or from another view, a Fascist (in the classic sense of a strongman leader in charge of a nationalistic and autarkic leaning government operating on cahoots with a cabal of conservative private industry) though I'm sure that term will understandably rile up some.
Vaktathi wrote: Iron Captain makes a fair point. Putin has the oligarchs at his beck and call, while the Ukrainian government is largely inept and the Oligarchs are the ones that get things done.
That said, one could also make the case that Putin is something of an indirect "supreme oligarch", or from another view, a Fascist (in the classic sense of a strongman leader in charge of a nationalistic and autarkic leaning government operating on cahoots with a cabal of conservative private industry) though I'm sure that term will understandably rile up some.
You could see Putin and his chekist clique as a different kind of oligarch, yes. But the way by which oligarchs rule is very different from the way by which Putin and the chekists rule, so the comparison does not hold up entirely. There is definitely a degree of overlap though.
And if you use fascist in the way you define it, you could even call Putin a fascist. But before you do that you have to understand that "fascist" is a very negative term that rarely is used in the way you just defined it. In Russia especially, it is a very negative term. Calling Putin a fascist would not be useful in the light of the common meaning of fascist.
Iron_Captain wrote: And if you use fascist in the way you define it, you could even call Putin a fascist. But before you do that you have to understand that "fascist" is a very negative term that rarely is used in the way you just defined it. In Russia especially, it is a very negative term. Calling Putin a fascist would not be useful in the light of the common meaning of fascist.
Right, that's why I qualified that statement and detailed my definition, I do understand it's a very loaded term, but not totally inappropriate from a more "dictionary" perspective (as opposed to the more common perjorative meaning primarily relating to German Nazi's and their sympathizers). I'd be equally comfortable applying that definition to many US politicians, including at least one current presidential candidate
Russia’s Supreme Court has upheld the conviction of Perm blogger Vladimir Luzgin for reposting a text which states that both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland in 1939. The Supreme Court’s ruling came on September 1, 2016, the 77th anniversary of Hitler’s invasion of Poland, 17 days before the anniversary of the Soviet invasion from the east.
Henry Reznik, the well-known lawyer who was representing Luzgin, commented that the Supreme Court has discredited itself through this ruling and promised to appeal further. He added that an application to the European Court of Human Rights was simply demanded.
As reported here, 37-year-old Vladimir Luzgin was convicted in July this year by the Perm District Court and fined 200 thousand roubles. The charge was under Article 354.1 of Russia’s criminal code (‘rehabilitation of Nazism’) and concerned Luzgin’s repost of a text on his VKontakte social network page entitled ’15 facts about Bandera supporters, or what the Kremlin is silent about’.
It is probably no accident that the ‘offending text’ should be Ukrainian, and fairly nationalist, however it was specifically over the following paragraph in the repost that the criminal proceedings against Luzgin were initiated:
“The communists and Germany jointly invaded Poland, sparking off the Second World War. That is, communism and Nazism closely collaborated, yet for some reason they blame Bandera who was in a German concentration camp for declaring Ukrainian independence”.
Russia’s Supreme Court has now agreed that this paragraph constitutes “the public denial of the Nuremberg Trials and circulation of false information about the activities of the USSR during the years of the Second World War”.
It is hard to know what is most shocking in all of this. A prime contender must be Alexander Vertinsky, dean of the History Faculty of the Perm Humanitarian-Pedagogical University. He proved willing to appear for the prosecution and claim that the paragraph really did contain “statements that do not correspond with the position accepted at international level”.
There are also two Russian courts willing to agree that since the Nuremberg Trials did not mention the Soviet invasion, the information was ‘knowingly false’. With the Soviet Union as one of the victors exerting considerable influence at Nuremberg, it was highly unlikely that Soviet collaboration with the Nazis and its invasion would get a mention.
The rulings are extraordinarily cynical. Whatever was said at Nuremberg, any genuine historian will confirm that the Soviet Union invaded what was then Poland on September 17, 1939.
To deny this is absurd when the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its secret protocols which carved up Poland between the Soviet Union and Germany have long been in the public domain, and can be read about in any history book.
Perhaps the most chilling aspect of this is that the Perm ‘historian’, the courts, the prosecutor are doubtless well aware of the historical facts. Luzgin has more than likely been prosecuted for revealing inconvenient facts, and the Russian prosecutor, courts, as well as a historian have all proven complicit in this cynical travesty.
The bill outlawing something dubbed ‘rehabilitation of Nazism’ has been in force since May 2014. It claims to be aimed at opposing the glorification of Nazism and distortion of historical memory. The renowned Sova Centre disagrees and believes its aim is to prohibit historical discussion. It’s application in this case has flouted provable historical fact.
In parallel with its military aggression against Ukraine, the Kremlin has been trying to reinstate the Soviet narrative about the Second World War in which details of the first almost 2 years during which the Soviet Union was Hitler’s ally are blurred, and the collaboration justified.
At a press conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel on May 10, 2015, Putin defended the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, claiming that the Soviet Union was being left to face Hitler’s Germany by itself. Russia’s culture minister Vladimir Medinsky called the pact a "colossal achievement of Stalin’s diplomacy."
Then on September 20, 2015, Russia’s ambassador to Venezuela Vladimir Zayemsky claimed that the Soviet Union did not invade Poland on Sept 17, 1939 and that it was in fact Poland, not the USSR, that collaborated with Nazi Germany. He wrote that “the alleged invasion by Soviet forces of Poland in 1939 is a lie” and went on to claim that although Poland was the first victim of WWII, it tried to be “Hitler’s faithful ally” in the period before the War. “It was Warsaw’s pro-fascist stand which made a treaty of cooperation between the USSR, Czechoslovakia and France impossible”, he alleged. The same offensive attempts to rewrite history were presented by Russia’s ambassador to Poland Sergey Andreyev a few days later, speaking on Polish television.
Andreyev claimed that the Soviet invasion on September 17 had not been an act of aggression, but a defensive act to ensure the security of the USSR.
This is exactly the narrative that the Kremlin has been pushing to try to justify Russia’s invasion and annexation of Crimea.
...something something history something something victors.
Russia’s Supreme Court has upheld the conviction of Perm blogger Vladimir Luzgin for reposting a text which states that both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland in 1939. The Supreme Court’s ruling came on September 1, 2016, the 77th anniversary of Hitler’s invasion of Poland, 17 days before the anniversary of the Soviet invasion from the east.
Henry Reznik, the well-known lawyer who was representing Luzgin, commented that the Supreme Court has discredited itself through this ruling and promised to appeal further. He added that an application to the European Court of Human Rights was simply demanded.
As reported here, 37-year-old Vladimir Luzgin was convicted in July this year by the Perm District Court and fined 200 thousand roubles. The charge was under Article 354.1 of Russia’s criminal code (‘rehabilitation of Nazism’) and concerned Luzgin’s repost of a text on his VKontakte social network page entitled ’15 facts about Bandera supporters, or what the Kremlin is silent about’.
It is probably no accident that the ‘offending text’ should be Ukrainian, and fairly nationalist, however it was specifically over the following paragraph in the repost that the criminal proceedings against Luzgin were initiated:
“The communists and Germany jointly invaded Poland, sparking off the Second World War. That is, communism and Nazism closely collaborated, yet for some reason they blame Bandera who was in a German concentration camp for declaring Ukrainian independence”.
Russia’s Supreme Court has now agreed that this paragraph constitutes “the public denial of the Nuremberg Trials and circulation of false information about the activities of the USSR during the years of the Second World War”.
It is hard to know what is most shocking in all of this. A prime contender must be Alexander Vertinsky, dean of the History Faculty of the Perm Humanitarian-Pedagogical University. He proved willing to appear for the prosecution and claim that the paragraph really did contain “statements that do not correspond with the position accepted at international level”.
There are also two Russian courts willing to agree that since the Nuremberg Trials did not mention the Soviet invasion, the information was ‘knowingly false’. With the Soviet Union as one of the victors exerting considerable influence at Nuremberg, it was highly unlikely that Soviet collaboration with the Nazis and its invasion would get a mention.
The rulings are extraordinarily cynical. Whatever was said at Nuremberg, any genuine historian will confirm that the Soviet Union invaded what was then Poland on September 17, 1939.
To deny this is absurd when the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its secret protocols which carved up Poland between the Soviet Union and Germany have long been in the public domain, and can be read about in any history book.
Perhaps the most chilling aspect of this is that the Perm ‘historian’, the courts, the prosecutor are doubtless well aware of the historical facts. Luzgin has more than likely been prosecuted for revealing inconvenient facts, and the Russian prosecutor, courts, as well as a historian have all proven complicit in this cynical travesty.
The bill outlawing something dubbed ‘rehabilitation of Nazism’ has been in force since May 2014. It claims to be aimed at opposing the glorification of Nazism and distortion of historical memory. The renowned Sova Centre disagrees and believes its aim is to prohibit historical discussion. It’s application in this case has flouted provable historical fact.
In parallel with its military aggression against Ukraine, the Kremlin has been trying to reinstate the Soviet narrative about the Second World War in which details of the first almost 2 years during which the Soviet Union was Hitler’s ally are blurred, and the collaboration justified.
At a press conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel on May 10, 2015, Putin defended the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, claiming that the Soviet Union was being left to face Hitler’s Germany by itself. Russia’s culture minister Vladimir Medinsky called the pact a "colossal achievement of Stalin’s diplomacy."
Then on September 20, 2015, Russia’s ambassador to Venezuela Vladimir Zayemsky claimed that the Soviet Union did not invade Poland on Sept 17, 1939 and that it was in fact Poland, not the USSR, that collaborated with Nazi Germany. He wrote that “the alleged invasion by Soviet forces of Poland in 1939 is a lie” and went on to claim that although Poland was the first victim of WWII, it tried to be “Hitler’s faithful ally” in the period before the War. “It was Warsaw’s pro-fascist stand which made a treaty of cooperation between the USSR, Czechoslovakia and France impossible”, he alleged. The same offensive attempts to rewrite history were presented by Russia’s ambassador to Poland Sergey Andreyev a few days later, speaking on Polish television.
Andreyev claimed that the Soviet invasion on September 17 had not been an act of aggression, but a defensive act to ensure the security of the USSR.
This is exactly the narrative that the Kremlin has been pushing to try to justify Russia’s invasion and annexation of Crimea.
...something something history something something victors.
A court in Russia's central Perm region has fined local man Vladimir Luzgin 200,000 rubles ($3,100) on “Nazism rehabilitation” charges for reposting an article on the Vkontakte social network, the Kommersant newspaper reported Friday.
The article titled “15 Facts on Banderovtsy [followers of controversial Ukrainian nationalist rebel-leader Stepan Bandera], Or What the Kremlin Is Silent About,” that Luzgin reposted in 2014, contains deliberately false information about a joint attack on Poland carried out by German and Soviet forces in 1939, according to the court. Since 2014, the article has been viewed by 20 users.
Luzgin was declared guilty in publicly denying facts that were established by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremberg trials. The court has also described Luzgin, who graduated from school with a ‘B’ grade in history, as educated enough to understand falsity of the information in the article.
The defendant, who first admitted his guilt, later claimed that the article had only referred to communists, and not the Soviet Union itself, and that he had never read the text of the Nuremberg Tribunal verdict.
According to the prosecutors, Luzgin clearly realized that the text might affect a large number of users and form a “negative image of the Soviet Union’s actions during World War II.”
A controversial law criminalizing propaganda or rehabilitation of Nazism was signed by President Vladimir Putin in May 2014 and since then has raised many concerns due to its vagueness.
It is a bad thing. The law was not intended for this kind of thing, but some pro-Soviet judges use it to silence every criticism of communism or the Soviet Union. Also, just to clarify, as it is hard to get from the English-language articles: What the judges are not denying that the USSR invaded Poland, rather, they have difficulty accepting the statement that nazism and communism "honestly cooperated" because this contradicts the text of the Nuremberg trial verdicts. Leaving the truth of the degree to which communism and nazism cooperated aside, having a trial over something that trivial makes those judges a bunch of ridiculous, tax-money wasting nitpickers if you ask me.
So... he was fined for what exactly? Posting bs on the internet?
A bastion of freedom Russia is.
I mean holy hell, a whole 20 people read this. You know what that tells me? That the state is so into crushing peoples freedom of speech, that they're dredging even the most pathetic corners of the internet to find a way to oppress their people.
Iron_Captain wrote: What the judges are not denying that the USSR invaded Poland, rather, they have difficulty accepting the statement that nazism and communism "honestly cooperated" because this contradicts the text of the Nuremberg trial verdicts. Leaving the truth of the degree to which communism and nazism cooperated aside, having a trial over something that trivial makes those judges a bunch of ridiculous, tax-money wasting nitpickers if you ask me.
Their honors might try reading the terms of the Ribbentrop pact. it was Russia, after all, that made it common knowledge about how closely they 'collaborated'. And aren't facts in Russian courts usually settled by 'confession' ?
"There wasn't a sickle, but there was certainly a hammer."
BTW: I love the other article in Moscow Times: seems playing Pokemon Go in church is an act of religious extremism. PLOsaur? Hezbollahizard? ISIS-CHU, I choose you!
djones520 wrote: So... he was fined for what exactly? Posting bs on the internet?
A bastion of freedom Russia is.
I mean holy hell, a whole 20 people read this. You know what that tells me? That the state is so into crushing peoples freedom of speech, that they're dredging even the most pathetic corners of the internet to find a way to oppress their people.
It is more likely one of the 20 people who read it became really offended and reported it. The Russian intelligence services are good, but they are not so good they can monitor every single thing posted on the internet or on social networks. Hand while technically he was fined for 'rehabilitating nazism', the real reason was of course that the bs he posted offended the wrong people. This is not about crushing freedom of speech, which is not a real issue in Russia (really, despite the fact that there definitely are issues and despite ignorant westerners claiming Russia is some kind of dystopian dictatorship, we mostly have a pretty high degree of freedom of speech). If it were about crushing freedom of speech, they would have gone after something people actually read or take seriously, like any of the numerous opposition newspapers, websites or blogs. The issue here is rather the selective application of law in Russia and the ridiculous power of judges as a result of ambiguous laws. Mostly as a relic of Soviet times, Russian laws usually aren't written very clearly (not to mention the fact that different laws sometimes directly contradict each other). This pretty much allows judges to send to jail or fine anyone they happen to dislike even if the person is hardly guilty of breaking any law (like in this case). They can always twist the law enough to make you guilty if they want to. The Russian legal system needs a few overhauls, that is the real issue here, not freedom of speech.
djones520 wrote: So... he was fined for what exactly? Posting bs on the internet?
A bastion of freedom Russia is.
I mean holy hell, a whole 20 people read this. You know what that tells me? That the state is so into crushing peoples freedom of speech, that they're dredging even the most pathetic corners of the internet to find a way to oppress their people.
It is more likely one of the 20 people who read it became really offended and reported it. The Russian intelligence services are good, but they are not so good they can monitor every single thing posted on the internet or on social networks. Hand while technically he was fined for 'rehabilitating nazism', the real reason was of course that the bs he posted offended the wrong people. This is not about crushing freedom of speech, which is not a real issue in Russia (really, despite the fact that there definitely are issues and despite ignorant westerners claiming Russia is some kind of dystopian dictatorship, we mostly have a pretty high degree of freedom of speech). If it were about crushing freedom of speech, they would have gone after something people actually read or take seriously, like any of the numerous opposition newspapers, websites or blogs. The issue here is rather the selective application of law in Russia and the ridiculous power of judges as a result of ambiguous laws. Mostly as a relic of Soviet times, Russian laws usually aren't written very clearly (not to mention the fact that different laws sometimes directly contradict each other). This pretty much allows judges to send to jail or fine anyone they happen to dislike even if the person is hardly guilty of breaking any law (like in this case). They can always twist the law enough to make you guilty if they want to. The Russian legal system needs a few overhauls, that is the real issue here, not freedom of speech.
If the legal system can be used to imprison people because people don't like what they say, that would appear to be an issue with freedom of speech. Even if it's not Kremlin directed, that doesn't mean it isn't a freedom of speech issue.
That said, that the majority major television and news outlets are state owned in whole or in part (particularly the big 3 national channels), is a pretty huge issue. Also concerning is that journalists, particularly from the opposition, end up being murdered a couple times a year (Russia has had several dozen journalists murdered since 2000 with most cases unsolved, while the US has had 6, 2 during the 9/11 and subsequent Anthrax attacks and 2 by a former colleague on-air last year, the other two killed by locals who were subsequently arrested and convicted).
djones520 wrote: So... he was fined for what exactly? Posting bs on the internet?
A bastion of freedom Russia is.
I mean holy hell, a whole 20 people read this. You know what that tells me? That the state is so into crushing peoples freedom of speech, that they're dredging even the most pathetic corners of the internet to find a way to oppress their people.
It is more likely one of the 20 people who read it became really offended and reported it. The Russian intelligence services are good, but they are not so good they can monitor every single thing posted on the internet or on social networks. Hand while technically he was fined for 'rehabilitating nazism', the real reason was of course that the bs he posted offended the wrong people. This is not about crushing freedom of speech, which is not a real issue in Russia (really, despite the fact that there definitely are issues and despite ignorant westerners claiming Russia is some kind of dystopian dictatorship, we mostly have a pretty high degree of freedom of speech). If it were about crushing freedom of speech, they would have gone after something people actually read or take seriously, like any of the numerous opposition newspapers, websites or blogs. The issue here is rather the selective application of law in Russia and the ridiculous power of judges as a result of ambiguous laws. Mostly as a relic of Soviet times, Russian laws usually aren't written very clearly (not to mention the fact that different laws sometimes directly contradict each other). This pretty much allows judges to send to jail or fine anyone they happen to dislike even if the person is hardly guilty of breaking any law (like in this case). They can always twist the law enough to make you guilty if they want to. The Russian legal system needs a few overhauls, that is the real issue here, not freedom of speech.
If the legal system can be used to imprison people because people don't like what they say, that would appear to be an issue with freedom of speech. Even if it's not Kremlin directed, that doesn't mean it isn't a freedom of speech issue.
That said, that the majority major television and news outlets are state owned in whole or in part (particularly the big 3 national channels), is a pretty huge issue. Also concerning is that journalists, particularly from the opposition, end up being murdered a couple times a year (Russia has had several dozen journalists murdered since 2000 with most cases unsolved, while the US has had 6, 2 during the 9/11 and subsequent Anthrax attacks and 2 by a former colleague on-air last year, the other two killed by locals who were subsequently arrested and convicted).
135 dead journalists since 2000, from what I just added up. The VAST majority during Putin's years as President. The number killed dropped drastically as soon as he left office.
djones520 wrote: So... he was fined for what exactly? Posting bs on the internet?
A bastion of freedom Russia is.
I mean holy hell, a whole 20 people read this. You know what that tells me? That the state is so into crushing peoples freedom of speech, that they're dredging even the most pathetic corners of the internet to find a way to oppress their people.
It is more likely one of the 20 people who read it became really offended and reported it. The Russian intelligence services are good, but they are not so good they can monitor every single thing posted on the internet or on social networks. Hand while technically he was fined for 'rehabilitating nazism', the real reason was of course that the bs he posted offended the wrong people. This is not about crushing freedom of speech, which is not a real issue in Russia (really, despite the fact that there definitely are issues and despite ignorant westerners claiming Russia is some kind of dystopian dictatorship, we mostly have a pretty high degree of freedom of speech). If it were about crushing freedom of speech, they would have gone after something people actually read or take seriously, like any of the numerous opposition newspapers, websites or blogs. The issue here is rather the selective application of law in Russia and the ridiculous power of judges as a result of ambiguous laws. Mostly as a relic of Soviet times, Russian laws usually aren't written very clearly (not to mention the fact that different laws sometimes directly contradict each other). This pretty much allows judges to send to jail or fine anyone they happen to dislike even if the person is hardly guilty of breaking any law (like in this case). They can always twist the law enough to make you guilty if they want to. The Russian legal system needs a few overhauls, that is the real issue here, not freedom of speech.
If the legal system can be used to imprison people because people don't like what they say, that would appear to be an issue with freedom of speech. Even if it's not Kremlin directed, that doesn't mean it isn't a freedom of speech issue.
That said, that the majority major television and news outlets are state owned in whole or in part (particularly the big 3 national channels), is a pretty huge issue. Also concerning is that journalists, particularly from the opposition, end up being murdered a couple times a year (Russia has had several dozen journalists murdered since 2000 with most cases unsolved, while the US has had 6, 2 during the 9/11 and subsequent Anthrax attacks and 2 by a former colleague on-air last year, the other two killed by locals who were subsequently arrested and convicted).
That is only the Federal channels. Also, most of them are only indirectly owned by the government. Plenty of critical stuff still makes it past the Kremlin censor that way. And that is before taking into account the myriads of available alternative news sources.
Also, there is tens of thousands of journalists in Russia. Some get killed yes, but focusing on that ignores the fact that over 99,99% of journalists are still alive and continue their work in freedom. The probability of journalists to be killed is not higher in Russia than it is in most countries in the world. The focus on this is part of the Western anti-Russia propaganda campaign rather than an actual existing problem in Russia.
Russia definitely has issues with freedom of speech. But journalists being killed is not one of those issues. The main issue is the increasing government censorship of criticism aimed at historical and cultural sensitivities (Soviet crimes, LGBT rights etc.). While this does not affect the vast majority of Russians, small vulnerable minorities are more and more robbed of their voice by it. Freedom of speech is still relatively good right now in Russia. But this creeping censorship does have me worry about whether it will stay that way in the future.
That is only the Federal channels. Also, most of them are only indirectly owned by the government. Plenty of critical stuff still makes it past the Kremlin censor that way. And that is before taking into account the myriads of available alternative news sources.
Right, but viewership in Russia is heavily vested in those state owned TV channels, with alternative news sources having a less widespread viewership. That said I was surpised at just how regional Russian TV is (Japan too), across the US almost everything is a national channel packaged by a cable provider.
Also, there is tens of thousands of journalists in Russia. Some get killed yes, but focusing on that ignores the fact that over 99,99% of journalists are still alive and continue their work in freedom. The probability of journalists to be killed is not higher in Russia than it is in most countries in the world. The focus on this is part of the Western anti-Russia propaganda campaign rather than an actual existing problem in Russia.
Hrm, I would argue this. Sure, if you compare Russia's probability of journalists being killed to a global average, you might have a point, but relative to the nations Russia endeavors to see herself as equals to, the number of murdered journalists, particularly with unsolved cases, is astronomical. As noted, the US only had 6 (none unsolved and two in a major terrorist event) over the same time period that Russia has seen several dozen, and the US itself has an extremely high violence rate amongst developed nations, with two of those murders occurring on live TV last year. Just because 99.99% of journalists didn't get murdered isn't the point, a single example is often just functional as total liquidation, even in the worst places most still end up just fine (either because they tow the line, go underground, something changes, etc), but the fact that it's a continuous thing and mostly concentrated amongst opposition media, is the issue.
But this creeping censorship does have me worry about whether it will stay that way in the future.
It seems to be a trend in more than just Russia too sadly, the US has it's issues as well (both by the government and from other sources, as much as we like to crow otherwise), and both pale in comparison to a place like China.
Iron_Captain wrote: God, you guys are just so frustrating. Are you really comparing Russia to scientology or suggesting all Russians are brainwashed?
No, just comparing people who post ludicrous bs from RT to people who believe in Xenu. This doesn't include all Russians, that's something you've made up to try and dismiss the comparison. It merely describes some Russians and some non-Russians as having bought in to a social group, and decided to believe whatever that social group claims no matter how ridiculous the claims might get.
Maybe learn a thing about Russia or Russian culture first before making a comment on it?
Who is talking about Russian culture?
It's kind of funny that after taking offense at a perceived generalistion of Russia, you then go on to make an actual generalisation of Western culture. Stop this. Cultures aren't monolithic, and broad generalisations of them are almost completely useless and generally very stupid.
Stop talking about Russia vs the West. Start talking about people. Start doing this and you will very quickly have a startling revelation that dicking about starting low intensity wars in other countries really just ends up getting people killed, and that's a very bad thing.
Iron_Captain wrote: If it were about crushing freedom of speech, they would have gone after something people actually read or take seriously, like any of the numerous opposition newspapers, websites or blogs.
You mean the opposition papers that have been shuttered, the bloggers that have been arrested, and the websites now seized? Those guys?
Remember that you now have to get a broadcaster's license if too many people read your blog, which will get censored, and you perhaps arrested if it's 'too' anti-Putin. You can commit a world of international crimes via your blog, so long as it only hurts western companies. But point out a historical fact that makes Russia look bad, and god help you.
Why do you think so many of those sites and blogs are now actually based outside Russia?
BTW: Russia just proclaimed the last remaining independent polling agency in Russia to be, get this, a Foreign Agent. This is even more hilarious than usual, as Levada Centre has refused all foreign funds, period, since 2013.
On July 21st 2014 the Russian Defence Ministry produced the following graphic, claiming the following: “Besides it, Russian system of air control detected the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft, purposed Su-25, moving upwards toward to the Malaysian Boeing-777. The distance between aircrafts was 3-5 kilometers.”
They would also go on to claim that shortly after MH17 began to break up an object appeared on radar that they identified as an aircraft close to MH17.
In today’s press conference the story had changed completely. No longer was the Russian Defence Ministry talking about SU-25s, but now there was in fact no other aircraft, or any other object close to MH17. Now we have the Russian Defence Ministry themselves confirming Bellingcat’s earlier work that demonstrated they had produced false evidence at their July 21st 2014 MH17 press conference.
In addition to this, during today’s press conference the radar data showed the flight path of MH17 in the time before it was shot down:
This flight path clearly contradicts the Russian Defence Ministry’s July 21st 2014 claims, debunked by Bellingcat and others, that MH17 had made a significant course change shortly before being shot down:
It’s now clear that on July 21st 2014, only a few days after 298 were killed in Ukraine, the Russian Defence Ministry presented to the world a series of clearly fabricated evidence and claims, and even the Russian Defence Ministry’s own evidence proves that is the case.
The fact that Russia was so active in producing so many conflicting reports about MH-17 directly after they shot it down, just demonstrates how guilty they are.
If they weren’t guilty, they’d be quietly confident the truth would soon eliminate them. But, they are, and it hasn’t.
KTG17 wrote: I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.
I read a really interesting comment about Scientology one time. A former Scientologist explained that you buy in, piece by piece, to the whole system. Your social and economic well-being becomes dependant on the group, so you will accept anything they tell you. So when they clear you to find out about the really stupid Xenu stuff you just accept it. You don't believe it, but you accept it.
The distinction there explains what happens, I think.
Sure, but that also applies to all societies. Just think how many people are doing terrible things every day just because it is their job (microbeads in the new GW paint for example).
I went to a Scientology recruitment church(?) out of curiosity once, it was an informative experience.
On July 21st 2014 the Russian Defence Ministry produced the following graphic, claiming the following: “Besides it, Russian system of air control detected the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft, purposed Su-25, moving upwards toward to the Malaysian Boeing-777. The distance between aircrafts was 3-5 kilometers.”
They would also go on to claim that shortly after MH17 began to break up an object appeared on radar that they identified as an aircraft close to MH17.
In today’s press conference the story had changed completely. No longer was the Russian Defence Ministry talking about SU-25s, but now there was in fact no other aircraft, or any other object close to MH17. Now we have the Russian Defence Ministry themselves confirming Bellingcat’s earlier work that demonstrated they had produced false evidence at their July 21st 2014 MH17 press conference.
In addition to this, during today’s press conference the radar data showed the flight path of MH17 in the time before it was shot down:
This flight path clearly contradicts the Russian Defence Ministry’s July 21st 2014 claims, debunked by Bellingcat and others, that MH17 had made a significant course change shortly before being shot down:
It’s now clear that on July 21st 2014, only a few days after 298 were killed in Ukraine, the Russian Defence Ministry presented to the world a series of clearly fabricated evidence and claims, and even the Russian Defence Ministry’s own evidence proves that is the case.
The fact that Russia was so active in producing so many conflicting reports about MH-17 directly after they shot it down, just demonstrates how guilty they are.
If they weren’t guilty, they’d be quietly confident the truth would soon eliminate them. But, they are, and it hasn’t.
Hrmmm... first what could amount to a confession that was quickly withdrawn once it became clear that what went down wasn't a military cargo plane, then there was the claim that a 777 was shot down by an aircraft that had an operational ceiling well below the altitude it was flying at with a missile that was little more damaging than a birdstrike against a jet of that size, followed by a whole host of hilariously incompetently fabricated evidence, along with Russia's steadfast vetoing of UN resolutions for international tribunals for the incident...
It's certainly been interesting to see how much of the Russian backed leadership has been offed or disappeared in Dontesk and Luhansk, seemingly as a result of actions on both sides. I dont think anything of value was lost in this case.
Vaktathi wrote:It's certainly been interesting to see how much of the Russian backed leadership has been offed or disappeared in Dontesk and Luhansk. I dont think anything of value was lost in this case.
Shut up.
That man had more valour and honour than either of you, and much more than any of his opponents on the Ukrainian side. It is telling about theм that they have resorted to such low methods.
Arsen Pavlov, on the other hand, was a true war hero.
Vaktathi wrote:It's certainly been interesting to see how much of the Russian backed leadership has been offed or disappeared in Dontesk and Luhansk. I dont think anything of value was lost in this case.
Shut up.
That man had more valour and honour than either of you, and much more than any of his opponents on the Ukrainian side. It is telling about theм that they have resorted to such low methods.
Arsen Pavlov, on the other hand, was a true war hero.
When someone brags about shooting prisoners of war, all respect is forfeit, as does any regard as a "hero". Goes for either side (or the US, I feel much the same way about Chris Kyle for example). I stand behind my statements here, and you can be as mad about that as you want. As for my "valor and honor", well, I'm not the one bragging about shooting unarmed people or fighting in a foreign nation under false colors
So, no, not sorry at all.
Likewise, we've got no idea who actually carried this out aside from some highly suspect YouTube video from an unknown source. As I noted above, a not insignificant number of Russian backed leaders have been killed, arrest or disappeared (such as Vyacheslav Ponomarev) at the hands of those other than the Ukrainians. It's most probable it was a Ukrainian element of some sort, I won't dispute that, but it's not outside the realm of realistic possibility that it was an internal factional issue either or something altogether different.
And, lets be honest, this is hardly "low method" in this conflict for either side.
Shut up.
That man had more valour and honour than either of you, and much more than any of his opponents on the Ukrainian side. It is telling about theм that they have resorted to such low methods.
Arsen Pavlov, on the other hand, was a true war hero.
It was more likely done by one of his victims friends or family. A common problem of a rebellion is that people have families and friends on both sides of the line, something that would have occurred to the original Ukrainian rebel officers who were mysteriously replaced by Russians.
Oh, and, yeah, shooting POWs in all violation of the laws of war, it bad. Bragging about it? Yeah, valor and honor are pretty much out the window at that point. Remember that Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer was sentenced to death on the rumor that some of his men might have done something like that in defiance of orders.
He never shot POWs. That is a lie fabricated in a propaganda article by the Kiev Post. The notion that Pavlov would have ever given an interview to the Kiev Post is quite simply laughable.
Pavlov has not always treated POWs well, that much is true. But he did not shoot them. The Ukrainians meanwhile, kidnap innocent civilians from Donbass in order to trade them for captured soldiers. Now that is a war crime..
Pavlov has not always treated POWs well, that much is true. But he did not shoot them. The Ukrainians meanwhile, kidnap innocent civilians from Donbass in order to trade them for captured soldiers. Now that is a war crime..
Pavlov has not always treated POWs well, that much is true. But he did not shoot them. The Ukrainians meanwhile, kidnap innocent civilians from Donbass in order to trade them for captured soldiers. Now that is a war crime..
You know what else it is? Whataboutism.
Yeah. And pointing that out is also a whataboutism. So what?
Like anyone cares about it. The world is full of whataboutisms. It is a natural human reaction to criticism. Stop wasting your time and learn to deal with it.
So basically your rebuttal boils down to "nuh uh" and "whatabout".
Iron_Captain, you can do better than that.
It doesnt appear Pavlov ever appeared to have disputed the Kyiv Post story, at least that I can find.
Its a wonder how the Russians are always perfect and the Ukrainians are always just either lying or so much worse in every conceivable instance...so black and white..so easy...
Neither side is clean or innocent. Nobody has disputed that the Ukrainians have done some awful things (though a lot of that has also been exaggerated and only reported from Russian sources and not from any other including non-western sources). Lets be real about the Russian characters in this sad drama also having done awful things.
Vaktathi wrote: So basically your rebuttal boils down to "nuh uh" and "whatabout".
Iron_Captain, you can do better than that.
It doesnt appear Pavlov ever appeared to have disputed the Kyiv Post story, at least that I can find.
Its a wonder how the Russians are always perfect and the Ukrainians are always just either lying or so much worse in every conceivable instance...so black and white..so easy...
Neither side is clean or innocent. Nobody has disputed that the Ukrainians have done some awful things (though a lot of that has also been exaggerated and only reported from Russian sources and not from any other including non-western sources). Lets be real about the Russian characters in this sad drama also having done awful things.
No. Russian media is virtually always lying when it comes to Ukraine. But so is Ukrainian media. There are no good and bad sides in this conflict. Both sides do exactly the same. The Ukrainians do lots of horrible things, which then get ignored by Ukrainian and Western media and exaggerated by Russian media. The rebels do lots of horrible things, which then get ignored by Russian media and exaggerated by Ukrainian media. When the other side doesn't do something horrible, something horrible is made up and reported on as truth. This is the way things go in war.
And Western media just blindly copies everything from Ukrainian media, without any fact-checking whatsoever.
Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.
Vaktathi wrote: So basically your rebuttal boils down to "nuh uh" and "whatabout".
Iron_Captain, you can do better than that.
It doesnt appear Pavlov ever appeared to have disputed the Kyiv Post story, at least that I can find.
Its a wonder how the Russians are always perfect and the Ukrainians are always just either lying or so much worse in every conceivable instance...so black and white..so easy...
Neither side is clean or innocent. Nobody has disputed that the Ukrainians have done some awful things (though a lot of that has also been exaggerated and only reported from Russian sources and not from any other including non-western sources). Lets be real about the Russian characters in this sad drama also having done awful things.
No. Russian media is virtually always lying when it comes to Ukraine. But so is Ukrainian media. There are no good and bad sides in this conflict. Both sides do exactly the same. The Ukrainians do lots of horrible things, which then get ignored by Ukrainian and Western media and exaggerated by Russian media. The rebels do lots of horrible things, which then get ignored by Russian media and exaggerated by Ukrainian media. When the other side doesn't do something horrible, something horrible is made up and reported on as truth. This is the way things go in war.
And Western media just blindly copies everything from Ukrainian media, without any fact-checking whatsoever.
That's because the Western controlled media is trying to paint Vladimir Vladimirovich as the next Stalin, while ignoring real evil in hole countries that offer nothing strategically to the United States or NATO (i.e. won't get invaded over concocted evidence).
What's the old joke, there's nothing 'civil' in a civil war?
It is true, this war has no heroes, merely bastards. Putin is, however, the one that gets my goat. He kept the war going, and now holds it in stasis for what he believes is Russian national interest. Worse, what he's actually engineered is what will be some of the most violent wars in history once the pressure from Russia gives in the slightest, a self fulfilling prophecy of the annihilation of Russian speaking groups outside Russia.
Terrible crimes that would not have actually happened had he not interfered.
Vaktathi wrote: Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.
Nothing but common sense. The Kiev post is an American, heavily pro-Ukrainian regime newspaper. The notion that Pavlov would have contact with them is hilarious. It is like the New York Times calling Osama bin Laden for an interview after the WTC attacks. Don't you see how obviously fake that is?
Besides, I don't have to proof anything. The burden of proof would be on the Kiev Post. I don't know the reason why Pavlov never disputed it, but it could be the fact that he simply had better things to do than dispute all the propaganda articles about him coming out of Kiev.
What's the old joke, there's nothing 'civil' in a civil war?
It is true, this war has no heroes, merely bastards. Putin is, however, the one that gets my goat. He kept the war going, and now holds it in stasis for what he believes is Russian national interest. Worse, what he's actually engineered is what will be some of the most violent wars in history once the pressure from Russia gives in the slightest, a self fulfilling prophecy of the annihilation of Russian speaking groups outside Russia.
Terrible crimes that would not have actually happened had he not interfered.
I disagree. While Putin certainly made the conflict worse, it would have escalated without his involvement too. Radicals on both sides would have acted regardless of whatever it is Putin did. It is not Putin or any single person who is at fault for this conflict here, but rather it is the direct consequence of mistakes made during the breakup of the Soviet Union and the 1990's that resulted in Ukraine becoming a divided and failed state. Ethnic tensions in Ukraine had always been boiling slightly below the surface, in hindsight it was only a matter of time before it all erupted.
Vaktathi wrote: Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.
Nothing but common sense. The Kiev post is an American, heavily pro-Ukrainian regime newspaper. The notion that Pavlov would have contact with them is hilarious. It is like the New York Times calling Osama bin Laden for an interview after the WTC attacks. Don't you see how obviously fake that is?
Besides, I don't have to proof anything. The burden of proof would be on the Kiev Post. I don't know the reason why Pavlov never disputed it, but it could be the fact that he simply had better things to do than dispute all the propaganda articles about him coming out of Kiev.
Bin Laden did in-person interviews with western media in 1993, 1997, and 1999, after declaring war and having carried out terrorist attacks on the US. After 2001 and journalists having a record of being used to kill leaders in Afghanistan (like Massoud), it wasn't going to happen for personal safety reasons, but he sent tapes to Al Jazeera meant for distribution to western media for many years after 2001 up until his death. Making a boastful and threatening message to the "enemy" is hardly unheard of, and for a guy like Pavlov who was such a social media darling, it's hard to be believe he wouldn't have addressed it were it false.
Vaktathi wrote: Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.
Nothing but common sense. The Kiev post is an American, heavily pro-Ukrainian regime newspaper. The notion that Pavlov would have contact with them is hilarious. It is like the New York Times calling Osama bin Laden for an interview after the WTC attacks. Don't you see how obviously fake that is?
Besides, I don't have to proof anything. The burden of proof would be on the Kiev Post. I don't know the reason why Pavlov never disputed it, but it could be the fact that he simply had better things to do than dispute all the propaganda articles about him coming out of Kiev.
Bin Laden did in-person interviews with western media in 1993, 1997, and 1999, after declaring war and having carried out terrorist attacks on the US. After 2001 and journalists having a record of being used to kill leaders in Afghanistan (like Massoud), it wasn't going to happen for personal safety reasons, but he sent tapes to Al Jazeera meant for distribution to western media for many years after 2001 up until his death. Making a boastful and threatening message to the "enemy" is hardly unheard of.
So what if Bin Laden made statements every now and then? Motorola made statements too. That is very different from the NY Times calling Bin Laden to have him answer some questions. You are ignoring my point.
War leaders sending messages to the enemy is something that happens in every war. The press ringing up an enemy leader in wartime for an interview is something that never happens, for good reasons. Not only is it difficult if not impossible to just call them because their phone number is not publicly known but it also would not at all be in the leader's interests, given the inevitable fact that the enemy wartime press will distort everything for propaganda value.
Or did I miss that casual interview that Hitler gave to the BBC in 1943?
Vaktathi wrote: Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.
Nothing but common sense. The Kiev post is an American, heavily pro-Ukrainian regime newspaper. The notion that Pavlov would have contact with them is hilarious. It is like the New York Times calling Osama bin Laden for an interview after the WTC attacks. Don't you see how obviously fake that is?
Besides, I don't have to proof anything. The burden of proof would be on the Kiev Post. I don't know the reason why Pavlov never disputed it, but it could be the fact that he simply had better things to do than dispute all the propaganda articles about him coming out of Kiev.
Bin Laden did in-person interviews with western media in 1993, 1997, and 1999, after declaring war and having carried out terrorist attacks on the US. After 2001 and journalists having a record of being used to kill leaders in Afghanistan (like Massoud), it wasn't going to happen for personal safety reasons, but he sent tapes to Al Jazeera meant for distribution to western media for many years after 2001 up until his death. Making a boastful and threatening message to the "enemy" is hardly unheard of.
So what if Bin Laden made statements every now and then? Motorola made statements too. That is very different from the NY Times calling Bin Laden to have him answer some questions. You are ignoring my point.
No, I'm not, Bin Laden did exactly that sort of thing until it became unsafe to meet directly with Journalists (largely due to his own tactics), but he absolutely met in person with journalists of "the enemy" directly several times.
War leaders sending messages to the enemy is something that happens in every war. The press ringing up an enemy leader in wartime for an interview is something that never happens, for good reasons. Not only is it difficult if not impossible to just call them because their phone number is not publicly known but it also would not at all be in the leader's interests, given the inevitable fact that the enemy wartime press will distort everything for propaganda value.
Or did I miss that casual interview that Hitler gave to the BBC in 1943?
which is a very different thing than a 2010's social media darling fighting in a civil war with massively vague boundaries. It's not like other fighters and officials havent spoken to outfits like Kyiv Post or western outlets like the BBC or VICE many times during the conflict.
Can we be certain the interview is 100% authentic? No, I'll grant that. Given the circumstances of the conflict and similar interviews and statements by others in similar positions to similar outlets, and that nobody seemed to dispute the authenticity, a preponderance of the evidence points to it being authentic, and is in line with his statements and attitudes in other places. I've seen statements from supposed DNR officials issuing a blanket denial that anyone shot prisoners, but nobody that disputed the authenticity of the interview itself.
Just like in the US we cant fully authenticate Chris Kyle's claims, but I'm totally ok with not considering his death any great loss either
I disagree. While Putin certainly made the conflict worse, it would have escalated without his involvement too. Radicals on both sides would have acted regardless of whatever it is Putin did.
And those same radicals would be, at least mostly, dead. (A war fought by such patriots thins the herd rapidly, and the guys that don't 'lead from the front' are quickly seen for what they are.) Keeping it in stasis will leave the poison to fester in the wound. Eventually that hate gets to be like a religion with generations of hate built up behind it. When it gets free, well, you've seen the middle east and Chechnya. It would have been better to let them fight it out themselves without involving the Russian military to forcibly slow it down and have it settled.
About 500 members from elements of the 45th Infantry Brigade Combat Team will deploy in two six-month rotations late this fall and into next year, said Lt. Col. Lindy White, a spokeswoman for the Oklahoma National Guard.
They will mobilize in about 30 days, she said.
Members will train in Oklahoma and then head to Fort Bliss, Texas, for additional training before deploying overseas, White said.
They will provide training support to Ukraine under the U.S. Security Cooperation Agreement, she said.
Col. David Jordan, commander of the combat team, said Guard members will assist the Ukrainian forces with their training from squad level to staff level.
“It’s a great opportunity for the soldiers of the 45th to use the experiences we’ve gained through our training and deployments,” Jordan said.
“We will be shoulder to shoulder with them as they train on small unit tactics, security, defensive operations and establish their own combat training center.”
The U.S. military already has units training in Ukraine, White said.
Eastern Ukraine has been in crisis as a conflict between Russian-backed separatists and government forces rages on.
Leaders from Russia, France, Germany and Ukraine are expected to meet Wednesday in Berlin to discuss a resolution to the conflict, according to news reports.
“I’m very proud of these brave soldiers as they take part in this important mission,” said Gov. Mary Fallin. “Their service allows us to enjoy the blessings of liberty and live freely in the greatest democracy the world has ever seen.
“We can’t fully repay the debt of gratitude we owe them, but they should know we always will stand behind them and will support them when they return home. While they are away, we will keep them in our thoughts and prayers.”
Since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the 45th Infantry Brigade Combat Team has lost 15 members in the line of duty, White said.
The last deployment was in 2011-2012, she said.
“That was the largest deployment of 45th IBCT,” White said. “We had elements in Afghanistan and Kuwait.”
Hardly significant as there's already Americans in country in non-combat roles (we'll take a blind eye to the special forces and mercenaries), but worth a post to keep this thread relevant to our American cousins. I guess they could carry out joint training exercises with all those Russian troops who're over their for training as well. Tsk, wait, no. Those guys are on "holiday", that wouldn't be professional to take them away from their leisure time.