Ukraine, Again

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**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:
The Russian soldiers fighting the Russian border guard is just the Ukrainian "intelligence" service being their silly selves.

I seem to remember hearing about it too, but in passing from a Russian source. I just dismissed it as a friendly fire incident, but considering what happened next... jurisdictional dispute gone bad or did the army catch FSB at exactly the wrong moment in a false flag op? Both have led to blue on blue shootouts in the past in Russia.

**Iron_Captain**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
The Russian soldiers fighting the Russian border guard is just the Ukrainian "intelligence" service being their silly selves.

I seem to remember hearing about it too, but in passing from a Russian source. I just dismissed it as a friendly fire incident, but considering what happened next... jurisdictional dispute gone bad or did the army catch FSB at exactly the wrong moment in a false flag op? Both have led to blue on blue shootouts in the past in Russia.

Well, some of the many armed branches of the Russian state do have fierce rivalries with one another (and everyone hates and fears the FSB and its operatives), but it is really rare for that to actually lead to armed violence. Usually it is just drunken bar brawls (deaths unfortenately aren't all that uncommon). It is not entirely possible that this was a friendly fire incident during a secret Russian operation, but considering the place and timing (and the importance and sensitiveness of the operation that would imply) that seems very unlikely. Russia's secret services are competent enough not to make such basic mistakes as not informing their own border guard.
More likely the friendly fire story is just an Ukrainian attempt to absolve themselves from blame and distance themselves from the situation created by either Ukrainian government operatives or more likely Ukrainian radicals acting on their own.

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:
It is not entirely possible that this was a friendly fire incident during a secret Russian operation, but considering the place and timing (and the importance and sensitiveness of the operation that would imply) that seems very unlikely. Russia's secret services are competent enough not to make such basic mistakes as not informing their own border guard.

Unless your targets *are* the boarder guard. Let me bounce this off you and see if it sounds unreasonable.

FSB, for whatever reason, are out to heat things up in a way that makes Putin look good and the Ukrainians look bad. So, a boarder patrol will be ambushed by 'Ukrainian Special Forces'. The boarder patrol though, either by good luck or good judgement, spots the ambush in advance, and turn it around on the FSB, believing them to be genuine Ukrainian forces.

Also, I'll point out that most professional armies are just that, and FF still happens.

**Iron_Captain**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
It is not entirely possible that this was a friendly fire incident during a secret Russian operation, but considering the place and timing (and the importance and sensitiveness of the operation that would imply) that seems very unlikely. Russia's secret services are competent enough not to make such basic mistakes as not informing their own border guard.

Unless your targets *are* the boarder guard. Let me bounce this off you and see if it sounds unreasonable.

FSB, for whatever reason, are out to heat things up in a way that makes Putin look good and the Ukrainians look bad. So, a boarder patrol will be ambushed by 'Ukrainian Special Forces'. The boarder patrol though, either by good luck or good judgement, spots the ambush in advance, and turn it around on the FSB, believing them to be genuine Ukrainian forces.

It sounds unlikely, it is unneccesarily complicated and risky. In such a case it'd be easier for the FSB to stage a bomb attack or something like that (and it'd be even better to just let an actual Ukrainian or Tatar terrorist do their attack instead of arresting them). And in this case the guys who were arrested and the manner in which they were arrested makes it an even more unlikely scenario. It was a succesful FSB raid on a group of infiltrators, the border guard was not even involved in it at any point. I'd also like to point out that without any supporting evidence, it would be little more than a conspiracy theory. Skirmishes on the Crimean border are far from uncommon (this one only making the news because an FSB officer got killed), so I find the infiltrator scenario far more likely, especially since there have been plenty of infiltrators before (like just recently they arrested a Tatar network who had re-entered Crimea to stage terrorist attacks, supported by the Ukrainian SBU).

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:
It sounds unlikely, it is unneccesarily complicated and risky. In such a case it'd be easier for the FSB to stage a bomb attack or something like that (and it'd be even better to just let an actual Ukrainian or Tatar terrorist do their attack instead of arresting them). And in this case the guys who were arrested and the manner in which they were arrested makes it an even more unlikely scenario. It was a succesful FSB raid on a group of infiltrators, the border guard was not even involved in it at any point. I'd also like to point out that without any supporting evidence, it would be little more than a conspiracy theory. Skirmishes on the Crimean border are far from uncommon (this one only making the news because an FSB officer got killed), so I find the infiltrator scenario far more likely, especially since there have been plenty of infiltrators before (like just recently they arrested a Tatar network who had re-entered Crimea to stage terrorist attacks, supported by the Ukrainian SBU).

A bombing though would make Putin look unable to protect the public. And, while it's complicated, this exact plan has happened before, in South America, under guidance from the then-KGB and the still-CIA. When executed successfully, it's much more effective than a bombing.

That said, it's just me speculating on something that may have happened. And you're confusing the report about the boarder patrol/FSB shootout with the reported successful FSB raid. My understanding was these were two separate events.

**Wyrmalla**

On the hunt for a Putinosaur? Ukrainian soldiers break off from fighting Russian soldiers to play Pokemon Go

This is the amazing moment that army soldiers were caught on camera playing Pokemon GO in a war zone.

Gun-toting Ukrainian army soldiers were filmed playing the virtual game on their smartphones on the front line in Eastern Ukraine.

Two young soldiers are seen glued to their phones as they wander around in search of Pokemon characters as two colleagues, armed with machine guns, keep watch.

One of the soldiers, identified as Nikolay Nagornyi, says on camera: 'Rare and unique species of Pokemon have been found here in the Dokuchaevsk area.

'We even saw Pikachu here yesterday. We invite everyone to join us and take part in searching and hunting for these rare Pokemon.'

**LordofHats**

It's all fun and games till some guns down Mr. Mime

**stonned_astartes**

tneva82 wrote:
Yaraton wrote:
This is what has happened:

Or at least what Russia claims has happened. Not same as what has happened. No other party has verified that.

Rt is atrocious for pro Russian propoganda, I would be carefull about what you take as fact from that station. As intact most stations, but Rt is probly the worst.

**Iron_Captain**

BaronIveagh wrote:

That said, it's just me speculating on something that may have happened. And you're confusing the report about the boarder patrol/FSB shootout with the reported successful FSB raid. My understanding was these were two separate events.

No, they are the same event. The second one (FSB raid) is the official report on the event, the first (FSB vs Border Guard) is what the Ukrainian government says what happened. But as I said, this kind of thing happens almost weekly on the Crimean border, so maybe all of it is true. Or none of it. It happens so often it is becoming hard for me to keep track on what exactly happened when.

**A Town Called Malus**

LordofHats wrote:
It's all fun and games till some guns down Mr. Mime

Mr. Mime had it coming.

He knows what he did.

**FabricatorGeneralMike**

Just like the last thread this is going to be GREAT eventually

for leadership test and this thread get's a ....

(PS to a mod...can one of you talk to lego about making a orkmoticon eating popcorn please?)

**Wyrmalla**

This doesn't exist.

**oldravenman3025**

Silent Puffin? wrote:
Yaraton wrote:
the ukranian Nazi government

!

Yaraton wrote:

Yeah, I remember the previous attempt by the NATO predecessor....

!!

I think you need to broaden your reading as quite clearly where ever you are getting your news and history from is horrifically biased.

Well, the Ukraine isn't helping their case none when the insignia of the Azov Battalion is labeled with Germanic occultic symbols favored by the NSDAP and the SS.

Spoiler:

**BaronIveagh**

oldravenman3025 wrote:

Well, the Ukraine isn't helping their case none when the insignia of the Azov Battalion is labeled with Germanic occultic symbols favored by the NSDAP and the SS.

Well, the Azov Battalion no longer actually exists, having been gutted and rebuilt as a full regiment of the Ukrainian National Guard, the members subjected to extensive vetting. Part of their new job is clearing mine fields, so someone did not like them. The badge is more or less the same though.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Still, calling NATO the successor to Nazi Germany while completely ignoring the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is just wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start.

**Wyrmalla**

Can we avoid the he said she said about which side are the biggest Nazis and whataboutism which killed the last thread m'kay?

With that, queue whataboutism:

Russia’s War in Ukraine: The Medals and Treacherous Numbers

August 31, 2016

By Bellingcat

Translations: Русский

The full report can be downloaded here stock_save_pdf

The war in eastern Ukraine is known under multiple names; most often formulations similar to Ukrainian civil war or Ukrainian conflict are still used to describe the war. The implied characteristic as solely internal Ukrainian conflict is heavily disputed and an active Russian participation is widely accepted. While there is now plentiful evidence documenting a direct and decisive participation of Russian servicemen and the Russian armed forces in the fighting in eastern Ukraine since summer 2014, it is however not possible to support the various claims about the size of the Russian involvement using public available information.

Given the nature of open source evidence, it is near impossible to provide an exact number of Russian servicemen participating in the fighting in eastern Ukraine only relying on this type of information. The open source research done by @Askai707 and InformNapalm strongly suggest that – at minimum – hundreds of Russian servicemen were involved in the fighting so far. The most direct evidence could be provided by the Russian bureaucracy. However, such an information is also most likely a Russian state secret and not publicly available. Other information, similar to official statistics, would also allow an estimation of the number of involved Russian servicemen. Such information is available in previously published individual cases of Russian servicemen.

Previous published analyses identified Russian servicemen who published imagery of awarded medals. This imagery is valuable because most of the higher Russian medals have a consecutive numbering, explicitly stating the number of medals awarded so far. Therefore, imagery from two medals awarded at different dates allows us to calculate the number of awarded medals between both dates. Awards of four medals are analyzed in this report. It is possible to demonstrate that the number of awarded medals, compared to the years before 2014, suddenly and strongly increased in 2014 and 2015. The large number of awarded medals “For Distinction in Combat”, 4300 awards between 07.11.2014 and 18.02.2016, strongly suggests larger combat operations with active Russian military involvement in this period. In sum, the data suggests that more than ten thousand medals of all four considered types were awarded in the considered period. Therefore, it can be directly concluded that:

Thousands of Russian servicemen participated in 2014 and 2015 in combat operations and were awarded with medals for their actions in these operations.

Because of the evidence presented in preceding reports documenting the presence of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in eastern Ukraine and its participating in the fighting, and because it is a rather unrealistic assumption that every Russian serviceman participating or involved in the fighting in eastern Ukraine has been awarded with one of the discussed medals, it is possible to conclude:

Most likely far more than ten thousand Russian servicemen participated in combat operations in eastern Ukraine.
Most likely tens of thousands Russian servicemen participated in or contributed to the fighting in eastern Ukraine.

In sum, the findings of this report support the claims that thousands of Russian servicemen were active in eastern Ukraine. With these findings, it is also possible to strongly increase the lower data-based estimate of Russian servicemen involved in the fighting in eastern Ukraine using only open source information.
http://www.bellingca...usNumbers-4.pdf

**BaronIveagh**

Wyrmalla wrote:
Can we avoid the he said she said about which side are the biggest Nazis and whataboutism which killed the last thread m'kay?

With that, queue whataboutism:

Russia’s War in Ukraine: The Medals and Treacherous Numbers

August 31, 2016

By Bellingcat

Translations: Русский

The full report can be downloaded here stock_save_pdf

The war in eastern Ukraine is known under multiple names; most often formulations similar to Ukrainian civil war or Ukrainian conflict are still used to describe the war. The implied characteristic as solely internal Ukrainian conflict is heavily disputed and an active Russian participation is widely accepted. While there is now plentiful evidence documenting a direct and decisive participation of Russian servicemen and the Russian armed forces in the fighting in eastern Ukraine since summer 2014, it is however not possible to support the various claims about the size of the Russian involvement using public available information.

Given the nature of open source evidence, it is near impossible to provide an exact number of Russian servicemen participating in the fighting in eastern Ukraine only relying on this type of information. The open source research done by @Askai707 and InformNapalm strongly suggest that – at minimum – hundreds of Russian servicemen were involved in the fighting so far. The most direct evidence could be provided by the Russian bureaucracy. However, such an information is also most likely a Russian state secret and not publicly available. Other information, similar to official statistics, would also allow an estimation of the number of involved Russian servicemen. Such information is available in previously published individual cases of Russian servicemen.

Previous published analyses identified Russian servicemen who published imagery of awarded medals. This imagery is valuable because most of the higher Russian medals have a consecutive numbering, explicitly stating the number of medals awarded so far. Therefore, imagery from two medals awarded at different dates allows us to calculate the number of awarded medals between both dates. Awards of four medals are analyzed in this report. It is possible to demonstrate that the number of awarded medals, compared to the years before 2014, suddenly and strongly increased in 2014 and 2015. The large number of awarded medals “For Distinction in Combat”, 4300 awards between 07.11.2014 and 18.02.2016, strongly suggests larger combat operations with active Russian military involvement in this period. In sum, the data suggests that more than ten thousand medals of all four considered types were awarded in the considered period. Therefore, it can be directly concluded that:

Thousands of Russian servicemen participated in 2014 and 2015 in combat operations and were awarded with medals for their actions in these operations.

Because of the evidence presented in preceding reports documenting the presence of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in eastern Ukraine and its participating in the fighting, and because it is a rather unrealistic assumption that every Russian serviceman participating or involved in the fighting in eastern Ukraine has been awarded with one of the discussed medals, it is possible to conclude:

Most likely far more than ten thousand Russian servicemen participated in combat operations in eastern Ukraine.
Most likely tens of thousands Russian servicemen participated in or contributed to the fighting in eastern Ukraine.

In sum, the findings of this report support the claims that thousands of Russian servicemen were active in eastern Ukraine. With these findings, it is also possible to strongly increase the lower data-based estimate of Russian servicemen involved in the fighting in eastern Ukraine using only open source information.
http://www.bellingca...usNumbers-4.pdf

Not..... entirely conclusive but a strong indicator.

**Wyrmalla**

I don't believe any supply system is that well audited to have all the medals go out in consecutive order, but given the circumstances its a moot point.

**KTG17**

It's quite humorous to hear Putin and the Russian cronies complain about Ukranians firing on their troops while Russian troops have been fighting in Ukraine since this all started.

Oh wait, sorry, while they were on holiday.

I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.

**djones520**

KTG17 wrote:
It's quite humorous to hear Putin and the Russian cronies complain about Ukranians firing on their troops while Russian troops have been fighting in Ukraine since this all started.

Oh wait, sorry, while they were on holiday.

I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.

I'm sure the guys at the top are laughing all the way, but you can see right here on Dakka that there are plenty that buy into it.

**sebster**

KTG17 wrote:
I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.

I read a really interesting comment about Scientology one time. A former Scientologist explained that you buy in, piece by piece, to the whole system. Your social and economic well-being becomes dependant on the group, so you will accept anything they tell you. So when they clear you to find out about the really stupid Xenu stuff you just accept it. You don't believe it, but you accept it.

The distinction there explains what happens, I think.

**Wyrmalla**

Russian troops are training for a "hypothetical" situation where they involve themselves with a "terrorist" state fighting over annexed lands in the near future. Could just be an attempt to confuse the Ukrainians by acting like they're about to invade again, but rather just going back to letting the locals continue with their stalemate (as they've done with most of the other fictional states they've created in occupied territory).

http://uawire.org/news/russian-army-is-training-to-block-the-kerch-strait

Russian servicemen will train to block the Kerch Strait and gas condensate field in the annexed Crimea, the Russian Ministry of Defense press service reported on Wednesday, August 31.

“Formations of various attack forces from the Black Sea Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla will hold a series of trainings in the waters of the sea, aiming to defeat a hypothetical enemy and suppress an attempt to lift a blockade of the Kerch Strait and one of the gas condensate fields, and will also train to free a border guard ship seized by hypothetical terrorists,” the statement reads.

It is also reported that organizational training is being carried out in subdivisions, platoons and territorial defense units in the framework of mobilization exercises and military trainings with soldiers on reserve duty.

“Readiness of a number of industrial enterprises for military tasks, such as supply and repair of weapons and military equipment will be checked," the Russian Defense Ministry noted.

The Russian Armed Forces military drill began on August 25 and will last until August 31, Minister of Defense Sergey Shoygu stated. Among the declared objectives is an assessment of the army’s ability to quickly build up combat readiness in the southwest direction.

Russian military transport aircraft have moved special task units from northwest Russia to the landfills of the Southern Military district. There were 20 Il-76 aircrafts involved in the combat readiness tests.

On August 26, there were 15 combat ships from the Black Sea Fleet and 10 ships from the Caspian Flotilla that left the port to test their combat readiness.

http://uatoday.tv/politics/full-scale-attack-on-ukraine-to-begin-in-the-next-few-weeks-russian-expert-736957.html

Russian massive military drills on Ukrainian borders give Putin the opportunity to attack, which will be impossible after a month

Russian journalist and military expert Pavel Felgengauer in his text for the online-media "Apostrophe" explained why the full-scale Russian military attack on Ukraine may start in the near future.

The author of the article states that on Saturday August 27th, crews of aerospace defence forces of the Russian Western and Central military districts started the relocation of aviation equipment to operational airfields in the Southern Military district to participate in a sudden check of combat readiness of troops. This was reported by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and was reasoned by involvement in the large-scale military exercises near the border with Ukraine. The number of Russian troops involved in a ‘sudden inspection of combat readiness' is about 100 thousand troops. According to the Russian military expert Pavel Felgengauer, military preparations logically say that a large-scale conflict with Ukraine may start within the next few weeks.

The author explains further: Russian troops are on 'full alert' and are moving towards the border of Ukrainehaving already deployed a large amount of combat weapons costing Russia a sizable amount of money to maintain.

"Sure, it may be just saber-rattling, but it is very clear that we should expect a fully-fledged armed conflict, logically begining in the next few weeks. If it didn't start the whole procedure makes no sense because there is no reasonable explanation why this was organized in the first place, there are serious amounts of forces in place already – with real bombs, missiles, torpedoes," – Felgengauer states.

At this given moment in time, Russia has trained reservists in significant numbers, so there is no need in mobilization. Without it Kremlin is able to raise more than 100 thousand troops.

So-called "separatist" forces in Donbas are already lead by Russian generals, having logistic support from the Southern Military District of Russian armed forces which in fact belong to them, states the expert. They themselves (seperatist forces) are worth very little and are unable to crack the Ukrainian defense – only to starting the fight.

Based on given data the expert calls he current situation "a very dangerous situation".

"But will there be a war – we'll see, there is very little time left for guess work… with the given situation, Russia is trying to achieve a strategic and tactical surprise. And if she does not start now – then it will be too late. One would need to turn off full-scale operations in October due to the rains that start and of the next draft of conscipts into the Russian army (it would mean the demobilization of current wave of conscripts and having to train new ones - UT)." – stressed Felgengauer.

In the Interview for "Sobesednik" Felgengauer supports the possibility of a Russian attack due to the wider international situation.

"Presidential election in America, "lame duck" (US president, who will soon leave his position without the possibility of re-election – UT) Obama is not interfering and it is clear that he will not interfere in the near future. So now it's a unique situation: Europe is split with BrExit, even major new sanctions would be difficult to reconcile, not to mention the more serious (actions – UT). So the temptation for (Putin) would be to act now… they will still be under fire in Donbass region, tensions will remain, but the main (Ukraine wide - UT) war – may happen right now or we should be thinking about the following year. So... if we're lucky enough, we still can get by," – expert summarized.

**Co'tor Shas**

But Russia's being threatened by NATO guys!

**Freakazoitt**

Crimea sucks a lot of finance , but (so far) almost gives nothing.

**Wyrmalla**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Crimea sucks a lot of finance , but (so far) almost gives nothing.

And the tourism industry there's tanked too. Locals (and Russians) complain that the cost of even basic things is ridiculous. The number of foreigners fighting there has plummeted (20% of all soldiers is what I've read), not to mention Russia's pulled out most of its troops in a lot of areas to leave the locals to fight. Almost like the whole war was just a way of securing that naval base and clipping Ukrainian dissent, rather than lofty notions of national identity... (though as ever, you could say the same about all the occupied territories. They're so important to Moscow in the short term, but a decade later they're just another backwater, not to say Crimea was much to begin with)

**Iron_Captain**

KTG17 wrote:It's quite humorous to hear Putin and the Russian cronies complain about Ukranians firing on their troops while Russian troops have been fighting in Ukraine since this all started.

Oh wait, sorry, while they were on holiday.

I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.

djones520 wrote:
KTG17 wrote:
It's quite humorous to hear Putin and the Russian cronies complain about Ukranians firing on their troops while Russian troops have been fighting in Ukraine since this all started.

Oh wait, sorry, while they were on holiday.

I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.

I'm sure the guys at the top are laughing all the way, but you can see right here on Dakka that there are plenty that buy into it.

sebster wrote:
KTG17 wrote:
I can't help but wonder if the Russians actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, or they are just keeping up appearances while laughing in private. Either way, the world doesn't believe them, nor shouldn't.

I read a really interesting comment about Scientology one time. A former Scientologist explained that you buy in, piece by piece, to the whole system. Your social and economic well-being becomes dependant on the group, so you will accept anything they tell you. So when they clear you to find out about the really stupid Xenu stuff you just accept it. You don't believe it, but you accept it.

The distinction there explains what happens, I think.

God, you guys are just so frustrating. Are you really comparing Russia to scientology or suggesting all Russians are brainwashed? Without looking critically at yourselves and your own societies first? If so, you guys are the brainwashed ones here. Now stop deluding yourself with your self-righteousness and ignorance and go do some goddamn research before dismissing different opinions. Maybe learn a thing about Russia or Russian culture first before making a comment on it? But maybe I should not blame it on you. After all, the ignorance and contempt of other cultures combined with a delusion of superiority and "being right" is the hallmark of the Anglo-Saxon cultural worldview.

And about Russian soldiers in Ukraine, everyone (at least in Russia) knows and accepts that there were Russian soldiers deployed to Ukraine. But as long as there is no solid evidence, the Russian government can continue to deny their involvement, which is better for international relations. It is elementary level diplomacy, really. Don't know why it is so hard for you guys to get it.

Freakazoitt wrote:
Crimea sucks a lot of finance , but (so far) almost gives nothing.

What about great beaches and scenic views?

But it is true. Crimea does not have much to give. It is really poor and infrastructure and industry is badly maintained and very outdated. Resolving those problems will take many more years and a lot more money. And it is saying a lot about Ukraine that Crimea actually used to be one of its richest regions.

**KTG17**

Oh Iron_Captain, we're pretty well informed and DO get it. That's why no one likes Russia.

As for international relations I am not sure who you think they are fooling. Belarus maybe? And that is the hysterical part, because everyone knows better, but either Putin and his cronies are deluded into thinking they are fooling the world (which they are not), or they are convinced they can fool the Russian people (which they probably are), because they keep saying the same crap over and over again.

On top of that, this is the same government that declares all Russian military deaths during 'peace time' state secrets?????????????? Simply to keep the Russian people from knowing what his little war is costing them. What a shame to the families who lose their loved ones, and the lack of recognition the conscripts get for dying for his little game.

Yes, I know you are going to follow that up with some matter of fact answer that its a brilliant move on Putin's part, rather than realize to the rest of us how fethed up that is to do to your own people.

And since there is no real freedom of the press over there, there is no one to openly challenge them.

Keep drinking the kool-aid, buddy.

**Freakazoitt**

What about great beaches and scenic views?

It will be owned by oligarkhs soon

**Iron_Captain**

KTG17 wrote:
Oh Iron_Captain, we're pretty well informed and DO get it. That's why no one likes Russia.

As for international relations I am not sure who you think they are fooling. Belarus maybe? And that is the hysterical part, because everyone knows better, but either Putin and his cronies are deluded into thinking they are fooling the world (which they are not), or they are convinced they can fool the Russian people (which they probably are), because they keep saying the same crap over and over again.

On top of that, this is the same government that declares all Russian military deaths during 'peace time' state secrets?????????????? Simply to keep the Russian people from knowing what his little war is costing them. What a shame to the families who lose their loved ones, and the lack of recognition the conscripts get for dying for his little game.

Yes, I know you are going to follow that up with some matter of fact answer that its a brilliant move on Putin's part, rather than realize to the rest of us how fethed up that is to do to your own people.

And since there is no real freedom of the press over there, there is no one to openly challenge them.

Keep drinking the kool-aid, buddy.

You say you get it but then ask who we think we are fooling? lol
This never was about fooling people.

And no freedom of press? Clearly you have never actually been to Russia then. Well-informed, my ass.

Freakazoitt wrote:

What about great beaches and scenic views?

It will be owned by oligarkhs soon

Probably, yes. But I rather have Russian oligarchs than the Ukrainian ones we just kicked out. In Russia, oligarchs are still controlled by the state. In Ukraine, oligarchs are the state

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:
. In Russia, oligarchs are still controlled by the state. In Ukraine, oligarchs are the state

Cap, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but....

It's mostly a choice between pro Putin Oligarchs (Russia) and Anti-Putin Oligarchs (Ukraine).