If you could delete a faction, fluff, models, rules, mentions and all, which one would it be. And why?

Just the one.

Note that this action does not change time, it does not send you back into the past, but it deletes all mention of that faction from all GW publications forever. The faction existed in fluff up until the day of deletion, and everyone remembers it. This line exists to try to make this thread slightly more than a whinge thread.

Let me know if you want a faction added.

My choice, oddly enough is the Imperial Guard. Without the IG, all human armies would be supersoldiers of some kind or another. You could thusly make the proliferation of SM armies fluffy, and there would be an unending horde of the fethers. You'd have to give them more personality than that of just a hardened warrior, but with good writers (ha!) you could pull it off.
Humans would be closer to evolving into something more, and we can go ham on the customization of everything.

I would retcon Old Ones, honestly, to make them more in line with the hilarious incompetence explained by the Emperor in the various If the Emperor Had a Text to Speech Device videos. And then give them a model range that makes one think of WFB Lizards IN SPAAAAACE.

No, I am not joking.

Give the Slann themselves something like Freeza's chair to sit in, as they psychically command their units which consist of primitive versions of Orks and Eldar, called Krorks and Eladin. Include giant sauropods and theropods with armor and turrets as "living tanks".

I don't want to delete any faction.

I want to overhaul a fair few but I do not want any removed entirely.

I guess if I had to, I'd pick Sisters, because they are not far from being squatted anyway. But I'd want to keep them too, honestly. Just changed.

Retconning is more than deletion, Ashiraya.

Every time Marines get a new toy that "oh we've always had before", that's a retcon.

 Melissia wrote:
Retconning is more than deletion, Ashiraya.

Every time Marines get a new toy that "oh we've always had before", that's a retcon.

 Selym wrote:

Note that this action does not change time, it does not send you back into the past, but it deletes all mention of that faction from all GW publications forever. The faction existed in fluff up until the day of deletion, and everyone remembers it. This line exists to try to make this thread slightly more than a whinge thread.

It does today, unless you have a funner explanation of a change. Mostly I want to see why someone would want a faction removed, and how they would compensate for the loss.

Tyranids. Biotech is stupid and their lore is boring.

I like the irony of your avatar with that choice

How would you explain Tyrannic War vets, Cassius' entire life, Calgar's limbs, and the one time Ultramarines were not top dog?

To comply with the rules of the thread, I chose Farsight Enclaves. I don't mind the Tau being in the 40K universe, but the Farsight Enclaves, with Crisis Suits as Troops, are just a pandering to players who want to spam suits.

When I saw the title, I got kind of excited, because I thought it would be about changing the fluff of existing armies, not completely getting rid of them. For a long time, I've wanted to retcon the fluff for the Chaos Marine Legions. The idea they're comprised largely of Horus Heresy veterans and thus are super-cooler than Imperial Space Marines is just absurd. After 10,000 years of warfare, there'd hardly be any left, and of those that are, if they're anything less than Chaos Lords or Sorcerers, they're the most underachieving warriors in the history of underachieving.

That said, if I could only retcon one faction's fluff, it'd be Space Marines. Specifically, I'd get rid of the whole "only men can be Space Marines" guff. GW really needs to catch up with demographic trends and start making more of an effort to appeal to female gamers. Having their flagship army be a boys-only club does not help them do that.

 Selym wrote:
It does today

So change it from "retcon" to "delete". Because Retcon means something entirely different. And yes, I will insist on being fething pedantic about this.

 Selym wrote:
I like the irony of your avatar with that choice

How would you explain Tyrannic War vets, Cassius' entire life, Calgar's limbs, and the one time Ultramarines were not top dog?

It was all a dream by Roboute Guilliman.

But I wouldn't retcon the Tyranids out of existence. I would rework the faction to be less dumb. Like give them actual space ships instead of flying around in bigger Tyranids.

Edit: Actually, I change my vote. I also pick Space Wolves. They are just... So dumb these days. Issue exterminatus. Kill them before they lose their last semblance of dignity.

I want to say Space Wolves. They have so much potential to be cool, but both the content of their fluff, representations on the tabletop, and the quality of the writing has been awful in every conceivable measure for quite a while now. Painfully contradictory, horribly written, and stupidly executed. It's all just...awful. If I had to pick just one specific faction to delete via retcon, it would be them.


That said, overall, if GW's background basically just stopped at mid 2007, and disregarded everything newer, I think that's how I would retcon things, just freeze everything there. I think that would be as close to a "perfect" 40k universe as we're likely to get before the fluff started to get increasingly "Fanfic-ey" and less coherent.

Tyranids. As I've said before, their fluff is stupid, their rules are bad, and their models are ugly. Remove them entirely.

Necrons, but by retcon drive them back more to their original storyline. return them to being a mysterious race awakening from the time before now.

Lose the Ctan and just have them as that, an ancient race that was defeated by the Old Ones (not Orks and Eldar that link is not tenable). The Old Ones are gone now and some of the Necrons have survived and their power is growing again.

 Melissia wrote:

 Selym wrote:
It does today

So change it from "retcon" to "delete". Because Retcon means something entirely different. And yes, I will insist on being fething pedantic about this.

Your wish

Tau... Never liked them, never thought they fit properly with the setting. And they are horrendously boring to play against.

Even as a Space Marine player myself, I would remove them. Their representation on the tabletop just doesn't match the fluff. The story of a dying empire fighting against a galaxy that wants to destroy it just loses impact when every other Imperium force on the table is a group of supersoldiers. I would have vastly preferred it if Space Marines were a minor faction akin to Harlequins but even more limited, as in only one squad per Imperial army minimum 1 model, maximum 10 models. I think movie marines would actually be better than the marine armies we have today from a fluffy standpoint.

Tau, no questions asked.

If they replaced all their guns with samurai swords, then they can stay.

Delete a faction? Eh... I mean I don't think factions should be deleted, I think that there should be fluff to support a fractured Imperium, so all your Space Marines/Guard/Sisters/etc. aren't on the same side of good and righteousness but have their own agendas that bring them into conflicts with each other.

Custodes. Totally irrelevant and don't even have models. Besides, when SM are already the best of mankind, deathwatch the best of SM, grey Knights the best of SM + psi, Paladins the best of Grey Knights... it is stupid.

Or Assassins. I wouldn't mind if they were Eldar, but as part of the Imperium the are just another part of the imperial bloat that 40K suffers from. Every Xenos race is supposed to have sth. special but in the end there are SM chapters and subfactions of the Imperium that, if combined, already have everything.

40K needs more like Tau, less SM. Actually, I wouldn't really want to erase anything, I would be fine if they stopped to give even more to the Imperium.

I don't want to erase something, but if I had to do it, it would be Space Wolves, too.
Juste look at the old wulfen, and then look at the new wulfen,
This summarize their delcine.

I really don't understand why sisters get so many votes ?
They have a strong personnality, and they don't bother anyone by existing.
Why ?

Tyranids.

I don't find them entertaining to read about, and don't enjoy playing with our against them. There are no negative effects on me if they get squatted.

None. I'm good now. With the Eldar more or less screwed thanks to Eldrad I'm finally good. I know they won't be squatted and some lore event will save them, but it's given me a good enough chuckle they can all stay now.

It also helps they are no longer top dogs thanks to superfriends. deathstars.

 EnTyme wrote:
Even as a Space Marine player myself, I would remove them. Their representation on the tabletop just doesn't match the fluff. The story of a dying empire fighting against a galaxy that wants to destroy it just loses impact when every other Imperium force on the table is a group of supersoldiers. I would have vastly preferred it if Space Marines were a minor faction akin to Harlequins but even more limited, as in only one squad per Imperial army minimum 1 model, maximum 10 models. I think movie marines would actually be better than the marine armies we have today from a fluffy standpoint.

I completely agree, they should be a tiny, minute part of the Imperium, legends, and heroes. Their appearance should be a miraculous exception, in the most desperate of circumstances.
The imperial guard are the mainstay of the imperium, they should represent 99.9% of every game played.

 General Kroll wrote:
Tau... Never liked them, never thought they fit properly with the setting.

You must not have read their fluff very carefully.

 Peregrine wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Tau... Never liked them, never thought they fit properly with the setting.

You must not have read their fluff very carefully.

To be fair, the good parts of their fluff are easy to miss and largely absent from their newer stuff (though admittedly the last Tau codex I read the fluff parts on was the 6E book).

A lot of hate on Tau.

Funny enough, Tau are proven to not be as powerful as they are perceived, they simply punish players who aren't very good easier than most.

I like the Tau fluff since yeah there is bad stuff, but they are also trying to be better than the others. So there is this mix where they do fit in since they are conquerors first, but the ones who do embrace their way genuinely are treated well.

I also like and would love to see more Xenos auxiliaries. That aspect of them is shriveling up with each new mecha release. There's no reason they can't design cool alien monsters for the Tau to use as tamed beasts of war by Kroot or some other faction. Look at Age of Sigmar's huge minis and they all look great. Seeing more 40k xenos done by those sculptors would be great.

I would also like to see more of their vehicles as well.

Finally Tau are the only faction you can portray as having both great good and great evil. Where as most other factions are just mustache twirling Saturday morning cartoon villainy.

Cephalobeard wrote:
A lot of hate on Tau.

Funny enough, Tau are proven to not be as powerful as they are perceived, they simply punish players who aren't very good easier than most.

lets not deceive ourselvrs here, against many armies Tau very much do have some EZ mode I win abilities. They arent as capable against the top end Eldar and Superpals army lists so they get knocked out of contention in many instances, but can be stupidly overpowered against armies that rely on armor, AV and cover and that cant play wound allocation gimmicks, no matter how capable the opposing general is.

I said Eldar.
They're dying anyway aren't they?

I wouldn't outright delete any. There are a few I'd like to fix.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Cephalobeard wrote:
A lot of hate on Tau.

Funny enough, Tau are proven to not be as powerful as they are perceived, they simply punish players who aren't very good easier than most.

lets not deceive ourselvrs here, against many armies Tau very much do have some EZ mode I win abilities. They arent as capable against the top end Eldar and Superpals army lists so they get knocked out of contention in many instances, but can be stupidly overpowered against armies that rely on armor, AV and cover and that cant play wound allocation gimmicks, no matter how capable the opposing general is.

So they're better than 7.0 codexes and are a 7.5 codex? OH wowwie wow. Also tau aren't great against AV 13-14 and lack a lot of the tools needed to drop big guys (d spam, troops that can tie them down, grav, psychic fun stuff) I'd argue that tau are good but their downsides are often ignored. Tau have a hard time contesting and taking objectives and if they can't table you all the opponent need do is play an objective game. Also most armies hard counter a few others. it's simply how things work. If your playing a vehicle spammy cover requiring list then perhaps tau are the rock to your scissors.

Also I voted SM but I'd personally nuke the wolf wolfs with their wolf lords on big thunder wolfs simply off their campiness and stupid naming conventions alone. The rest of SM are cool, but thunder wolfs just seem to be better than everyone else ever for no reason, are traitorous, and frankly have stupid names and ugly/absurd models. I don't like that they break the rules and get away with it cause' "why not" every time.

I quite like the idea of tau, but would prefer more xenos. I just feel there are too many humans in 40k, especially marines. There should be more alien, not less.
And ffs, space wolves are just ridiculous. Wolfy mcwolf face? feth off.
Super armoured space Vikings, yes. Beardy, mohican wolf bollox, no.

There's a lot. Space Wolves are obnoxious hypocrites, SoB fans are as obnoxious as the CSM fans but at least aren't as important fluffwise, and Tyranids need a complete redesign as some of their weapons are still too humanoid for me.

What Tyranids need is to be less fleshtechy and more fleshy. Less fleshborers, spike rifles and barbed stranglers, more things like fleshborer hives, bio-electric lightning and Ravener ranged weapons.

Their biological thing is unique and cool, but in my opinion they could do with some nuance and personality (think Rachni from Mass Effect).

I'd like to delete Vanilla Marines and the guy who names the Space Wolf units and war gear.

I love the units, Love TWC, love the Wulfen, even love Santa Clawz on his sleigh.

But when TWC are Wolf Guard lead by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader who can be joined by independent characters like Wolf Guard Battle Leaders, Wolf Lords and Wolf Priests, oh, and they're protected by Wolf Amulets and armed with Wolf Claws...it gets jarring when every second thing is called a Wolf something-or-other, even for a Space Wolves player.

I would delete the Grey Knights donkey-caves, where is their option? I don't want the whole space marines gone.

Why do you have the custodies as a option, they're not even an army, both in fluff and TT. Also the old ones, why are they an option? Farsight Enclave is not a separate codex anymore, they are part of tau, so you can fit them together.

Peregrine wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Tau... Never liked them, never thought they fit properly with the setting.

You must not have read their fluff very carefully.

Or maybe I read it and still didn't like the aesthetic of the army? Someone having a differing opinion than you isn't automatically incompetent you know.

40k is meant to be a gothic representation of the future, at the outset it was basically fantasy in space. You had Knights (Space Marines) Elves (Eldar) Orks (Well Orcs) Squats (Dwarves) Dark Sorcerers (Chaos) and plain old humans (Guard) then later came Necrons (Undead)

Then all of a sudden we have a manga inspired robot army of fish people. The aesthetic is somewhat out of place for me. It's all far too twee for me. I'm not saying the setting shouldn't accept ideas out of the fantasy norm, I mean Nids don't exactly fit that model, but the horror element and grimness of their look makes them fit a lot more easily. As for the Tau I mean I quite like the darker elements of the whole "greater good" thing, as well as their mysterious origins, I just don't like their look, or the way they play on the table top. Sure it can be argued they aren't the cream of the crop on the tournament scene, but in a casual game they put out way too much firepower. Try playing them with Orks, or Nids.

I agree that the game needs more non imperial factions, but I'd much rather see something akin to the Hrud, or even Space Skaven (which is what the Hrud originally were) the Ghoul stars are meant to be full of weird and creepy threats, let's see some of those.

#bringbackthezoats

Dark Eldar. Adds almost nothing to the fluff/lore/story. A group of raiders and pirates who could easily be replaced by normal Eldar corsairs etc.

 General Kroll wrote:

Peregrine wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Tau... Never liked them, never thought they fit properly with the setting.

You must not have read their fluff very carefully.

Or maybe I read it and still didn't like the aesthetic of the army? Someone having a differing opinion than you isn't automatically incompetent you know.

40k is meant to be a gothic representation of the future, at the outset it was basically fantasy in space. You had Knights (Space Marines) Elves (Eldar) Orks (Well Orcs) Squats (Dwarves) Dark Sorcerers (Chaos) and plain old humans (Guard) then later came Necrons (Undead)

Then all of a sudden we have a manga inspired robot army of fish people. The aesthetic is somewhat out of place for me. It's all far too twee for me. I'm not saying the setting shouldn't accept ideas out of the fantasy norm, I mean Nids don't exactly fit that model, but the horror element and grimness of their look makes them fit a lot more easily. As for the Tau I mean I quite like the darker elements of the whole "greater good" thing, as well as their mysterious origins, I just don't like their look, or the way they play on the table top. Sure it can be argued they aren't the cream of the crop on the tournament scene, but in a casual game they put out way too much firepower. Try playing them with Orks, or Nids.

I agree that the game needs more non imperial factions, but I'd much rather see something akin to the Hrud, or even Space Skaven (which is what the Hrud originally were) the Ghoul stars are meant to be full of weird and creepy threats, let's see some of those.

#bringbackthezoats

Annnd They deleted squats, redid necrons and have stated over and over that they don't want 40k to be fantasy in space. They've been trying to move away from this and it's why you'll probably never see Hurd or space dwarfs in the spot light ever again.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Delete a faction? Eh... I mean I don't think factions should be deleted, I think that there should be fluff to support a fractured Imperium, so all your Space Marines/Guard/Sisters/etc. aren't on the same side of good and righteousness but have their own agendas that bring them into conflicts with each other.

I'm pretty sure that's how the galaxy used to be portrayed before all this namby pamby everyone imperial must be friends rubbish.
Part of the inescapable results of the expansion of any race would be the endless infighting that sees imperial factions facing each other on the battlefield.

I'd pretty much delete all the variant marine chapter codices. Space Marines are a fine concept, but having that many books/factions for them is kind of ridiculous. Especially Space Wolves.

Second place goes to Nids. Just never been a fan.

 Elbows wrote:
Dark Eldar. Adds almost nothing to the fluff/lore/story. A group of raiders and pirates who could easily be replaced by normal Eldar corsairs etc.

At one point it felt like they were going to go somewhere with them, but then just never actually did. When they first came out they were the flashy new 3E adversary faction, but then sat in the corner for over a decade doing nothing. Then they got a wonderful reboot, and then have basically just sat in the corner again doing nothing

 Jaxler wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Cephalobeard wrote:
A lot of hate on Tau.

Funny enough, Tau are proven to not be as powerful as they are perceived, they simply punish players who aren't very good easier than most.

lets not deceive ourselvrs here, against many armies Tau very much do have some EZ mode I win abilities. They arent as capable against the top end Eldar and Superpals army lists so they get knocked out of contention in many instances, but can be stupidly overpowered against armies that rely on armor, AV and cover and that cant play wound allocation gimmicks, no matter how capable the opposing general is.

So they're better than 7.0 codexes and are a 7.5 codex? OH wowwie wow.

Which doesn't make them any less ridiculous when there's only a couple armies that have any sort of clear leg up on them. Basically they'll have hard times against Eldar, some (but by no means all) Space Marines, a narrow range of gimmick Daemon lists, and Decurion Necrons. Outside of that, most Tau armies are going to have a notable advantage over typical opponents all else being equal.

Also tau aren't great against AV 13-14

Since when? You certainly don't see Land Raiders, Predators, Battlewagons, Russ Tanks, etc doing spectacularly well against Tau. They have access to gobs of melta (and Deep Striking/Outflanking Melta at that), formations that auto-hit rear armor with shooting (which bypasses that AV14 except against Land Raiders), S10 AP1 railguns, D missiles on their big GC suits, etc. AV13/14 armor shouldn't be giving Tau all that hard of a time.

and lack a lot of the tools needed to drop big guys (d spam, troops that can tie them down, grav, psychic fun stuff) I'd argue that tau are good but their downsides are often ignored.

They do have downsides, the problem is that they have the firepower, mobility, and resiliency to make them irrelevant in many instances. Half the psychic fun stuff that's really solid Tau can get from Markerlights much better anyway, such as ignoring cover and increasing hit chances.

Tau have a hard time contesting and taking objectives and if they can't table you all the opponent need do is play an objective game.

Compared to Gladius/Formation abuse Space Marines or Eldar, sure. Compared to Dark Eldar, Orks, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Guard, Chaos Marines, Sisters, etc? Tau certainly don't seem to have things any harder on that front than any of those other armies.

Also most armies hard counter a few others. it's simply how things work. If your playing a vehicle spammy cover requiring list then perhaps tau are the rock to your scissors.

The problem there is twofold, in that armies really shouldn't be balanced that way if it can be helped (and there's a whole lot of Tau Rock to a very large number of Scissors armies), and the things Tau are really good at killing are what the majority of armies rely on. If you're reliant on AV, armor saves, or cover (which would encompass Orks, CSM's, GK's, IG, non-TWC SW's, BA's, Sisters, MT, Dark Eldar, and Tyranids) then Tau are going to have an easy time really tearing them up. This might be one thing if Tau were easy to kill back, but when they're increasingly sporting things like Stealth MC's and Riptides and get Skimmer bonuses, they're not really easy to kill.

Orks, there's nothing about them I enjoy.

It would be a low blow to the Ork players, so I wouldn't do it, but for the sake of the thread, I'll choose them without a second though

I don't want to delete much of anything, I'd really like to roll things together into fewer books with more lists among them so you end up with less redundancy, faster updates, and things getting updated at a more consistent rate.

Cut back the number of formations, do more with special detachments that can take units from several factions, and you could probably get it down to nine books or so. Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Small Imperial Armies, Chaos, Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Orks, Tyranids. Trying to stretch the last four to the scale of the first five could shove you into making more varied content for the other alien races, too.

But if you want a short answer cut the Imperial Knights. They look stupid, they're out of scale, they're a blatant violation of Gygax's Law, and they don't interact properly with the fluff at all.

Custodes, no models or rules, why bother mention them at all. Besides, it's the Imperial Fists that truly defend Terra.

SYKOJAK wrote:
Custodes, no models or rules, why bother mention them at all. Besides, it's the Imperial Fists that truly defend Terra.

Their role isn't to defend Terra, it's to defend the physical body of the Emperor. The Emperor just so happens to be on Terra

Daemons. Partly because they offend me on religious grounds, but mostly I just don't want them in my sci-fi. Also, removing daemons may give Tyranids a stronger base to work from, and the chaos legions could possibly be reworked so they are either infected by Tyranid bio-conversion "viruses" or working with these exo-galactic beings, allowing them to be more Cthululian in nature.

 Stormonu wrote:
Daemons. Partly because they offend me on religious grounds, but mostly I just don't want them in my sci-fi. Also, removing daemons may give Tyranids a stronger base to work from, and the chaos legions could possibly be reworked so they are either infected by Tyranid bio-conversion "viruses" or working with these exo-galactic beings, allowing them to be more Cthululian in nature.

So, change the entire premise of the setting because your religion has really bizarre beliefs about fictional demons? No thanks.

I voted for the Custodes. They are functionnaly useless as a faction since their role should and could easily be absorbed by the Grey Knights, the first company of the Imperial Fist or Sisters of Battle. Assassins and inquisitors should also be removed since they don't belong in a warzones, they belong in palace or in dark street corners. As for the others, they deserve more attention and we could seriously use a brand new xenos faction.

Whoever said the Farsight Enclaves... Just know that I am not pleased. Bastards.

I know Necrons are important to the fluff and their beginnings with the Eldar, but I straight up wish they would just die and fade away into their tombs.

I generally wouldn't delete any faction, but if I had to pick one of the options listed, I'd go with Space Marines.

My reasoning is that I'm sick of them getting so much attention and with them gone, everyone else would get more.

Ideally GW would just reduce the amount of time and energy they spend on Space Marines and divert more to other factions though.

I'd get rid of Tau. I hate their playstyle, I hate their look, and I hate their lore.

Death to their xeno butts

I think it'd be interesting with no imperial guard. No humans, suddenly they all get wiped out, and the only survivors are the space marines due to their suits. As billions of lives are snuffed out its down to the 100k or so SM against the universe

It would be interesting to see the IOM go into recruitment overdrive for marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mac wrote:
I would delete the Grey Knights donkey-caves, where is their option? I don't want the whole space marines gone.

Why do you have the custodies as a option, they're not even an army, both in fluff and TT. Also the old ones, why are they an option? Farsight Enclave is not a separate codex anymore, they are part of tau, so you can fit them together.

They were factions I remembered off the top of my head.

Cephalobeard wrote:
A lot of hate on Tau.

Funny enough, Tau are proven to not be as powerful as they are perceived, they simply punish players who aren't very good easier than most.

You make an argument that basically reads "gak people dislike it" which is a pretty gakky emperor's new clothes argument. I agree with you initial sentence though, but the reason is because it's boring as all hell to play against certain Tau builds if they get a few good rolls, to keep them shooting and keep them out of combat. It's just frustrating when the Tau player gets to play the game and all you get to do is move around less pieces every round.

Given how insignificant and outdated their lore is, I'd erase the Old Ones. They've wroked in WFB, but not really in 40K.

hahaha see the majority like myself voted Tau, the fluff just makes me cringe. So lame

 Stormonu wrote:
Daemons. Partly because they offend me on religious grounds, but mostly I just don't want them in my sci-fi. Also, removing daemons may give Tyranids a stronger base to work from, and the chaos legions could possibly be reworked so they are either infected by Tyranid bio-conversion "viruses" or working with these exo-galactic beings, allowing them to be more Cthululian in nature.

Not starting an argument on religion.

Daemons are a weird fit for Sci-Fi, but they do fit the Grimdark. The temptation and ruin from Chaos is rather central; also it is THAT BAD, literal demons are kicking around.

I'm not a fan of Tau and tyranids are ok, I guess, but I would not want to get rid of either. The fact that an empire and/or creatures exist with their own motivations that are not very concerned with the central struggle makes the universe more interesting and believable. Same goes for orks (plus orks are fun, I think any club or group without at least one ork player is missing out).

I would clean up a few things though like the bits and pieces of Imperium all over and do we really need that many books of SM (different flavours are one thing, but several armies) and Eldars (to a lesser extent).

TL;DR: I like that there are things that don't appeal to me, that other people can play.

Sisters of battle definitely.

Stops people whining about wanting new codex and miniatures. Fed up of hearing it now.

Also they have precedence for being disbanded as they consistently break the treaty of mars by withholding military vehicles and weapons from the Mechanicum. Which is treason by the laws they created.

To keep people happy aboit diversity though, release female upgrade sprues for Cadians and other guard regiments.

I picked space marines, but not as in remove them all together. For the sake of grim darkness have them start to dwindle off and bring more attention towards the guard for the supposed end times things

Blood Angels and Wolves kind of skate around the treaty of Mars too.
Am tired of the whine though but for every one of the vocal whiners there's probably 2 or 3 quietly waiting with a drawer of the things or so.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Sisters of battle definitely.

Stops people whining about wanting new codex and miniatures. Fed up of hearing it now..

I was just about to post the same exact thing. Not that I dislike the Sisters as a concept, but the Sisters whiners trying to strip any and all enjoyment other players have with their armies receiving new stuff (WHERE MY SISTERS?! SISTERS WHEN?! WAH!) has made me never want to see new product for them. EVER. Purely out of spite.

Jaxler wrote:
Also I voted SM but I'd personally nuke the wolf wolfs with their wolf lords on big thunder wolfs simply off their campiness and stupid naming conventions alone. The rest of SM are cool, but thunder wolfs just seem to be better than everyone else ever for no reason, are traitorous, and frankly have stupid names and ugly/absurd models. I don't like that they break the rules and get away with it cause' "why not" every time.

But they're so badass and cool! Just like Wolverine from the X-men!

They'd be better off as non-chaos renegade chapter, the Imperium seems to have hard time coping with any kind of mavericks.

HANZERtank wrote:Sisters of battle definitely.

Stops people whining about wanting new codex and miniatures. Fed up of hearing it now.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I was just about to post the same exact thing. Not that I dislike the Sisters as a concept, but the Sisters whiners trying to strip any and all enjoyment other players have with their armies receiving new stuff (WHERE MY SISTERS?! SISTERS WHEN?! WAH!) has made me never want to see new product for them. EVER. Purely out of spite.

Bit harsh lads, can you really begrudge people wanting a proper update for the their army after 13 odd years? I don't play SoB myself but I'd be pretty vocal about it if I still had to use Plague Marines from 1997 on a digital only codex while factions that used to be chapter approved sections in White Dwarf are getting full releases.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
....That said, if I could only retcon one faction's fluff, it'd be Space Marines. Specifically, I'd get rid of the whole "only men can be Space Marines" guff. GW really needs to catch up with demographic trends and start making more of an effort to appeal to female gamers. Having their flagship army be a boys-only club does not help them do that.

+1!!!!

So much THIS.

I would get rid of the whole "Men of Iron" thing in the fluff too (Skynet?)

I just think that getting women models into the game would be much better by adding them to an existing army. Squat players (mostly) got over it. I feel that rather than having a women only club army, having an all inclusive army such as the guard properly shown with female parts would be better.

I get that it must be annoying that you have to use models and rules from ages ago. And it's true that they need an update. But at this point personally I think it would be better off getting rid of them. Find a way to incorporate models into another army (can still use them as power armour acolytes for inquisition) or just stop production.

 HANZERtank wrote:
I just think that getting women models into the game would be much better by adding them to an existing army. Squat players (mostly) got over it. I feel that rather than having a women only club army, having an all inclusive army such as the guard properly shown with female parts would be better.

I get that it must be annoying that you have to use models and rules from ages ago. And it's true that they need an update. But at this point personally I think it would be better off getting rid of them. Find a way to incorporate models into another army (can still use them as power armour acolytes for inquisition) or just stop production.

I've said as much here, personally I think Space Marine armies, AND the Imperial guard should be Unisex in a soft reboot of the fluff.

As a Tau player I'm incredibly ashamed to say that I would get rid of the Farsight Enclaves, but I wouldn't do it instantly and just cut them from the game. A new edition could mean that a new codex for the Tau shows what happened to the Farsight Enclaves. Perhaps the Ethereals got annoyed enough to go and fight him. This could then lead to the Farsight Enclaves being destroyed or overthrown for the Greater Good, back into the Tau Empire.

If I didn't get rid of the Farsight Enclaves, I would get rid of the Tyranids, just because I have a personal distaste for them.

I'm of two minds about female space marines. One hand it's an easy write into the fluff, but harder to actually show on a model without being non helmeted or have literal breast plates ala Sisters.

It definitely would be easier to pull off in a guard modification as they don't have full face helmets. All the faces are quite distinctly male. Having slightly more feminine features as an upgrade sprue would be a lot easier and is pre existing in fluff. Doing it this way first and seeing how people react.

Anyway I think getting off topic here, might start a new thread about it though.

If I could, I'd drop the delete bomb on the imperial fists, those smug yellow banana fethers and their fanboys have reached wardian levels of BS undetected somehow.

Grey Knights. They are miserable Mary Sues, and when bad things happen to them in games, it makes me laugh.

 Ashley_Chaos wrote:
hahaha see the majority like myself voted Tau, the fluff just makes me cringe. So lame

Fun fact: 26% is NOT a majority.

It is, however, the voting majority. I.e. if we were choosing one to be removed, it would be the most popularly voted one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting... 10 people have gone for the whole of the IOM, and one for Daemons. No written explanation.

How rude

Can I vote twice? SW gotta go, too.

 Selym wrote:
It is, however, the voting majority. I.e. if we were choosing one to be removed, it would be the most popularly voted one.

:: cracks open a dictionary ::

majority
[muh-jawr-i-tee, -jor-]

noun, plural majorities.
1.
the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total (opposed to minority ):
the majority of the population.
2.
a number of voters or votes, jurors, or others in agreement, constituting more than half of the total number.
3.
the amount by which the greater number, as of votes, surpasses the remainder (distinguished from plurality ).

*rolls eyes*

 Ashley_Chaos wrote:
hahaha see the majority like myself voted Tau, the fluff just makes me cringe. So lame

While I disagree, I am curious as to why you think their fluff is so cringe worthy?

As to the OP topic I wouldn't want any faction removed as they all have a part to play in the fluff and tabletop.

Also its hard to gauge what people want when there isn't an option to vote for none.

 Selym wrote:
*rolls eyes*

It's the most popular option, and it would result in the Tau disappearing if the poll were made reality, but it's not a majority.

The word is plurality.

Tau. They're just a boring, bland army. Eldar and SM could be nerfed, but are at least visually interesting.

That or get rid of SoB, just to stop the whining.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Tau. They're just a boring, bland army. Eldar and SM could be nerfed, but are at least visually interesting.

That or get rid of SoB, just to stop the whining.

Given that the decision to squat Squats resulted in a massive amount of backlash, I think it'd take over a decade to actually stop or slow the amount of complaints, and in the short term it would increase the complaints massively.

I mean, on the official GW forums back in the early 2000s, even mentioning Squats was prohibited because of the amount of arguing and raging that talking about them resulted in.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
*rolls eyes*

It's the most popular option, and it would result in the Tau disappearing if the poll were made reality, but it's not a majority.

It's a plurality, but majority is usually used by most people. It's called a semantic change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Tau. They're just a boring, bland army. Eldar and SM could be nerfed, but are at least visually interesting.

That or get rid of SoB, just to stop the whining.

Given that the decision to squat Squats resulted in a massive amount of backlash, I think it'd take over a decade to actually stop or slow the amount of complaints, and in the short term it would increase the complaints massively.

Has it? At my LGS, I know of 2 out of 30 people that even remember Squats. Second, it would stop the whining for a new codex, because they'd be gone.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Has it? At my LGS, I know of 2 out of 30 people that even remember Squats. Second, it would stop the whining for a new codex, because they'd be gone.

It's been over 15 years since Squats were eliminated.

And back in the early 2000s there had been so many complaints and arguments about it that the official GW forums had a rule that Squats weren't even allowed to be talked about.

You'd just exchange complaints about the lack of an update for complaints about Sisters of Battle being wiped out altogether.

It's a factually incorrect semantic change, because plurality and majority are two distinct mathematical concepts.

This is an interesting poll.
I was very surprised with my first instinct and decided to go with it.

Orks.

I know, "heresy" I agree, but makes a strange sense to me.
They are the only race that is the most confused mess that first to spring to mind if you ask "Which one is a joke?".
Genetically engineered with tech-memories, part plant and breed by spores when they die, attack anything (including themselves) and get bigger the more they get beat up and survive.

All that fluff of what is a "problem" for any given race is not a problem at all for the Orks.

Khorne should be the god patron for these guys, yet somehow "corruption" is not an issue, heck it would be a benefit in their society.

They should be a "preferred food source" for the Tyranids. You would find no better biomass anywhere. Fights back, pretty angry, but plentiful.
Genestealer cult... can you just try to figure out how to make that work?

Dark Eldar would never find a more resilient slave for their "witnessing torture to regenerate".

Lately in the fluff they seem rather resistant to mutation so the warp is just another "fun" experience.

How do we get Ork faster than light fleets again? Only "facts" I can find is they grab a space-hulk, out-fit it with their invasion stuff and wait for it to slip into the warp again.

Let us all agree at least that the Orks make you "suspend disbelief" a little harder than the other races.
I like them, fun to convert and good angry models but are the "odd man out" compared to the other races.

 d00mspire wrote:
As a Tau player I'm incredibly ashamed to say that I would get rid of the Farsight Enclaves, but I wouldn't do it instantly and just cut them from the game. A new edition could mean that a new codex for the Tau shows what happened to the Farsight Enclaves. Perhaps the Ethereals got annoyed enough to go and fight him. This could then lead to the Farsight Enclaves being destroyed or overthrown for the Greater Good, back into the Tau Empire.

If I didn't get rid of the Farsight Enclaves, I would get rid of the Tyranids, just because I have a personal distaste for them.

The problem with that is that there are still quite a few sympathisers within the main Tau empire to make outright war risk turning into a major civil war which rips the empire apart. If you want proof just think about how Farsight keeps getting sent all the latest goodies which are developed in the main empire.

Also, to launch such a campaign would raise very awkward questions amongst the populace about why they were told he was dead in the first place and how he is still alive long after he should be long dead. Also, there really is no strategic advantage. Farsight seems perfectly content to sit on his own worlds and not bother them, in fact the only contact with the main empire is when he comes in to help them fight off enemies. To start a war would open up the possibility of Farsight launching a huge propaganda campaign against the Ethereals which could, thanks to his reputation, turn some important worlds such as Vior'la and other Fire caste centric worlds to his cause.

I voted to get rid of all loyalist Space Marines. Have all of the Space Marines have defected to Chaos or been destroyed in the Heresy and 10k years since and now the lowly guardsman and guardswoman (and occasionally Sisters of Battle) is all that stands between the Imperium and the darkness of the galaxy. Much more grimdark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Tau. They're just a boring, bland army. Eldar and SM could be nerfed, but are at least visually interesting.

That or get rid of SoB, just to stop the whining.

The problem with the Tau is that the rules do not match the fluff.

They should be a mobile, modern army utilising the mobility of their skimmers and battlesuits to move around the battlefield. A kind of middle ground between the slow but tough Imperial Guard and the fast but fragile Eldar (which also don't really match their fluff on the tabletop either, starting to see a pattern here). GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline. Then they added a load of big suits, which went against previous fluff, and gave them long range guns so they never needed to move all game whilst also making them very tough.

None. Why would I reduce the variety. There is no advantage to loosing things in this game. I dislike playing against the tau but if they were removed from the game I know a number of players in my local group that would quit. No thanks

 Talizvar wrote:
This is an interesting poll.
I was very surprised with my first instinct and decided to go with it.

Orks.

I know, "heresy" I agree, but makes a strange sense to me.
They are the only race that is the most confused mess that first to spring to mind if you ask "Which one is a joke?".
Genetically engineered with tech-memories, part plant and breed by spores when they die, attack anything (including themselves) and get bigger the more they get beat up and survive.

All that fluff of what is a "problem" for any given race is not a problem at all for the Orks.

Khorne should be the god patron for these guys, yet somehow "corruption" is not an issue, heck it would be a benefit in their society.

Gork and Mork are Warp entities just like Khorne or Slaanesh, and as such the Orks can basically be considered to be in thrall to Warp entities in their own ways. The warp holds sway over the Orks as it does all things, it just manifests in different ways.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The problem with the Tau is that the rules do not match the fluff.

They should be a mobile, modern army utilising the mobility of their skimmers and battlesuits to move around the battlefield. A kind of middle ground between the slow but tough Imperial Guard and the fast but fragile Eldar (which also don't really match their fluff on the tabletop either, starting to see a pattern here). GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline. Then they added a load of big suits, which went against previous fluff, and gave them long range guns so they never needed to move all game whilst also making them very tough.

Aye, this is a big problem with the direction of the Tau. They were a mobile mechanized tank heavy skinmer army with some beefy infantry suits to act as support and strike elements. Now they're a gunline army built around increasingly ridiculous mechabots.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The problem with the Tau is that the rules do not match the fluff.

They should be a mobile, modern army utilising the mobility of their skimmers and battlesuits to move around the battlefield. A kind of middle ground between the slow but tough Imperial Guard and the fast but fragile Eldar (which also don't really match their fluff on the tabletop either, starting to see a pattern here). GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline. Then they added a load of big suits, which went against previous fluff, and gave them long range guns so they never needed to move all game whilst also making them very tough.

Aye, this is a big problem with the direction of the Tau. They were a mobile mechanized tank heavy skinmer army with some beefy infantry suits to act as support and strike elements. Now they're a gunline army built around increasingly ridiculous mechabots.

Wasn't there also some Tau fluff about how they didn't have Titans because they didn't see the point in ridiculously large war machines like that? Like, around the early 2000s?

I could've sworn I read/heard something like that, and it's why when stuff like the Riptide came out I was wondering why Tau would even have such a thing instead of just making a hover tank like they would in the fluff.

Was very surprised by this thread. I know some people dislike elements of the game, but seeing people jump on dumping an entire model line (and probably someones entire army, costing them 1k and up).

Didn't expect people to have such a strong hate against pieces of plastic, and being able to make such a strong decision, without even thinking about the players/modelers behind them.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The problem with the Tau is that the rules do not match the fluff.

They should be a mobile, modern army utilising the mobility of their skimmers and battlesuits to move around the battlefield. A kind of middle ground between the slow but tough Imperial Guard and the fast but fragile Eldar (which also don't really match their fluff on the tabletop either, starting to see a pattern here). GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline. Then they added a load of big suits, which went against previous fluff, and gave them long range guns so they never needed to move all game whilst also making them very tough.

Aye, this is a big problem with the direction of the Tau. They were a mobile mechanized tank heavy skinmer army with some beefy infantry suits to act as support and strike elements. Now they're a gunline army built around increasingly ridiculous mechabots.

Wasn't there also some Tau fluff about how they didn't have Titans because they didn't see the point in ridiculously large war machines like that? Like, around the early 2000s?

I could've sworn I read/heard something like that, and it's why when stuff like the Riptide came out I was wondering why Tau would even have such a thing instead of just making a hover tank like they would in the fluff.

Pretty much. The Tau were against putting too many resources into a single big machine with limited capability, like Imperial Titans, which they regarded as too risky and wasteful. They instead favoured making use of combined arms with air support from Mantas and Tigersharks to take down heavy targets. They are very much "sum is greater than the parts" kind of thinkers. Investing all your resources in a single thing to take down the enemy is all well and good until that thing gets broken or destroyed. Spreading the resources into multiple, smaller weapons allows you to keep some of your effectiveness even if individual units are destroyed.

In game terms it would be like putting a single Knight Titan against an equivalent amount of points worth of crisis suits with dual meltas. Sure the Knight will probably kill some of the suits but then it will get surrounded and brought down as it doesn't have the firepower to take out all of them before they surround it and melt it into scrap.

Me, I'd get rid of Space Marines because they make the game boring, also because they're invariably the ones voting to ban other armies that happen to beat them (i.e. Tau, Eldar). But then I'd kinda want to catch Tau in the crossfire, because they're so fething whiny... And I really hate to play Necrons, because they're never any fun to play against.

Feth it, just burn the whole fething thing down.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Was very surprised by this thread. I know some people dislike elements of the game, but seeing people jump on dumping an entire model line (and probably someones entire army, costing them 1k and up).

Didn't expect people to have such a strong hate against pieces of plastic, and being able to make such a strong decision, without even thinking about the players/modelers behind them.

This is mostly an iddle discussion. Nobody is truly advocating for an entire army to be gone. It's a what if scenario.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Was very surprised by this thread. I know some people dislike elements of the game, but seeing people jump on dumping an entire model line (and probably someones entire army, costing them 1k and up).

Didn't expect people to have such a strong hate against pieces of plastic, and being able to make such a strong decision, without even thinking about the players/modelers behind them.

Methinks you may be taking this too seriously. Nobody is in a position to actually carry any of this out or is super serious about trying to make any of this happen, it's all a hypothetical "if you *had* to..." type exercise, nothing more.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Was very surprised by this thread. I know some people dislike elements of the game, but seeing people jump on dumping an entire model line (and probably someones entire army, costing them 1k and up).

Didn't expect people to have such a strong hate against pieces of plastic, and being able to make such a strong decision, without even thinking about the players/modelers behind them.

Methinks you may be taking this too seriously. Nobody is in a position to actually carry any of this out or is super serious about trying to make any of this happen, it's all a hypothetical "if you *had* to..." type exercise, nothing more.

Also more than a few people have prefaced their posts with a comment about how they wouldn't actually delete any faction if they were given the power to do so in reality.

They developed the Titans for when they didn't have air superiority and they are starting to have issues supplying all the aircraft needed to bring down Titans when they could and are often needed for trying to maintain air superiority.

Recent attacks on the Tau have actually seen them lose air superiority over much of their planet during the attack other than designated zones and specific missions. This is simply due to the utter vastness of scale of the Imperial fleet that they are increasingly held back for Kauyon or mission critical strikes.

It's other intended role is static defense on worlds that simply can't be lost so planets attacked by Tyranids.

This is its initial lore.

GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline.

IMO, "GW" didn't do this. The player base did. You can still play a highly mobile and fairly effective Tau force. You can even play that force AND have the benefits of the "gunline" at the same time (admittedly though there will be more suits than skimmers). It's just easier for most players to line up and sit. Sadly.

As far as what I would retcon -

I picked space marines, but not as in remove them all together. For the sake of grim darkness have them start to dwindle off and bring more attention towards the guard for the supposed end times things

I agree with this completely. I love my marines, but while the fluff gets a little more grim and a little more dark each year, and while that same fluff tells us the IoM is dying and the Marine's are so few; each edition all we see is MORE marine chapters and larger numbers. It's gotten to the point where we regularly see entire chapters engaged in a single conflict in the fluff.

Personally, I prefer the 2nd ed fluff. I would roll them back to that. Back then it was rare (in the fluff) to see more than two or three tac squads at one time. They were used for the "special forces" type missions the IG couldn't handle. To me, this really made them feel special and important. As they are now, Marines can potentially make a better horde army than Orks. That just doesn't sit right with me.


The other faction I'd look at is Newcrons. I always found it funny that GW was going to such lengths to make 40k not be "Warhammer Fantasy in Space" and then turned a fairly original race into "Tomb Kings in Space". WTF GW? I like a lot of their new toys and units, I would just have preferred to see some of those within the context of the Oldcron fluff. I really liked the fact that the C'Tan were these insanely powerful beings who had actually directly tangled with the Old Ones and were still a huge potential threat to the Chaos gods despite the two remaining C'Tan being somewhat diminished. They really felt a lot more "Lovecraftian" than the Chaos forces do (since the Chaos gods all have fairly understandable/relatable motives). I really liked the mystery and general "weirdness" that hung around the Oldcrons.

Tycho wrote:

GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline.

IMO, "GW" didn't do this. The player base did. You can still play a highly mobile and fairly effective Tau force. You can even play that force AND have the benefits of the "gunline" at the same time (admittedly though there will be more suits than skimmers). It's just easier for most players to line up and sit. Sadly.

But that is a flaw in the game design. When GW started introducing units like the Fireblade whose special rules require his attached unit to be stationary and also removed the upgrades which made Tau units mobile (like Advanced Stabilisation from Broadsides, Multi-trackers from vehicles) they made it harder to play the army the way it should. Then there was Supporting Fire which made it better to keep your units bunched up, which is easiest to achieve when you form a gunline. The removal of split fire from our vehicles also made our main tank very inefficient as it was designed with that capability in mind (main weapon for taking out heavy targets and secondary weapons for targeting infantry).

GW removed options which made the Tau mobile and made their vehicles work, whilst giving them incentives to gunline.

They did indeed. I wasn't around but from what you say this is true. Only suits are used in comp because only suits are mobile enough.

I wish we could get our vehicle and broadside mobility back. Among other things. That's GW messing up a good thing though. We also need actually decent melee troops in the Kroot need buffing.

The melee troops we need have to last a long time. I would love to see a new beefier strain of Kroot or a new species introduced to fit this role. This would open up more options.

Basically we have a mini space marine problem. People only use suits because they are so good and thus they sell even better on top of being cool so all we get is more suits which isn't addressing some of the fundamental balance issues of our codex.

It doesn't help the single shot Hammerheads suck ass even when they were new they were sub par to the Broadsides which were over nerfed and should be Str 9 not Str 8. They also need relentless back. We need new options that are good to expand how we play not more suits. I suppose they could design melee suits but that would be against the lore of the TE (but not the FSE). I would like the FSE to get at least one or two unique models to set them apart just a bit. I've detailed what I would like to see done with the army, but our last best chance to see rules revisions went up in flames when the new codex was basically a reprint with new stuff added in. Now we have no hope until perhaps 8th to see some true Tau diversity. I myself played mobile Tau with suits and didn't gunline it up. I would like more options for that. The Breachers were interesting but without a viable transport to get them where they need to be an a lack of being able to shoot when leaving is not great. The FAQ's gak on some of the last non suit builds that were quasiviable in a casual environment. When out next update comes out for end times/8th I bet we'll see even more suits. :( I want other stuff man! Only Forgeworld seems to get it with their Barracuda and rumors of looking into a SH tank. Also Forgeworld is currently the only ones making rules good enough for Tau to be taken even slightly seriously in the ITC meta right now thanks to the Y'vahrah. If Tau want to be viable they need massive buffs, or the top armies need monolithic nerfs.

Hammerheads were great in editions of yore, 3E-5E, when they had twice the chance (or better) to pop a tank on a given shot instead of having to rely on stripping HP's.

I always heard Broadsides were better back then but the HH wasn't bad bad just not as good.

Hammerhead used to have pseudofast, which it never should have lost.

Broadsides got you more raw firepower, but Hammerheads got you mobility, resiliency and versatility. They paired with the old "fish-o-fury" concept much better than broadsides did. When I built my Tau army in 4E, it had 3 Railheads and, coupled with 9 Plasma/Missile Pod Crisis Suits, that was really all the AT one needed back then (particularly against nonskimmer armies), and the rest of the army was a Crisis commander and 4 squads of Fire Warriors in Devilfish.

I voted squat maybe last night. Am pretty freaked out to see that option has been removed from the poll and GW no longer sell them! :S

No one else vote before we lose more factions!

This entire page is making me reconsider whether I should have just bandwagoned with the SM guys and added to the "ban Tau" brigade.

 Gamgee wrote:
I always heard Broadsides were better back then but the HH wasn't bad bad just not as good.

Broadsides had the advantage of being cheaper than the Hammerhead, having the same gun (but twin-linked) and being able to be taken in units of three in one Heavy Supoort slot. The Hammerhead brought mobility, toughness and more anti-infantry capabilities in the form of submunition rounds and its secondary weapon systems though.

Now HYMP Broadsides bring just about as much anti infantry killing power as the Hammerhead and are better at stripping Hullpoints, which is a more reliable method of taking out vehicles than hoping for an explode result in the vehicle damage table when you only get one roll on it per turn.

Had a bit of a think about it and I'll add a few more things to the list.
Gargantuan Creatures/Walkers and Superheavies - Relegate them back to Apoc where they belong.
Allies - Yeah, that'd stop a lot of whining.
Blood Angels - Relegate these useless bums back to the Vanilla Marine codex, they don't do anything outside the norm.

 Vaktathi wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
Custodes, no models or rules, why bother mention them at all. Besides, it's the Imperial Fists that truly defend Terra.

Their role isn't to defend Terra, it's to defend the physical body of the Emperor. The Emperor just so happens to be on Terra

I believe that you have that reversed.

SYKOJAK wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
Custodes, no models or rules, why bother mention them at all. Besides, it's the Imperial Fists that truly defend Terra.

Their role isn't to defend Terra, it's to defend the physical body of the Emperor. The Emperor just so happens to be on Terra

I believe that you have that reversed.

I think they were talking about the Custodes.

Aye, that was all in reference to the Custodes.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Tau, no questions asked.

If they replaced all their guns with samurai swords, then they can stay.

I feel the same lol

Oh god no, theres enough melee in 40k as it is, and we dont need more katana hype.

Tycho wrote:

GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline.

IMO, "GW" didn't do this. The player base did. You can still play a highly mobile and fairly effective Tau force.

You mean Fish of Fury?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Oh god no, theres enough melee in 40k as it is, and we dont need more katana hype.

Yes, it's pretty boring seeing a squad of space swordsmen on the field - you just know for a fact that they're never going to see combat.

GW should cut down on melee. Perhaps make it less valid by making overwatch occur at Bs2, and allow blast weapons to overwatch for 2D6 hits.

 Selym wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Oh god no, theres enough melee in 40k as it is, and we dont need more katana hype.

Yes, it's pretty boring seeing a squad of space swordsmen on the field - you just know for a fact that they're never going to see combat.

GW should cut down on melee. Perhaps make it less valid by making overwatch occur at Bs2, and allow blast weapons to overwatch for 2D6 hits.

I've been gone a long time.

Because around a year ago, everyone was saying melee is gak in 40k.

How do you guys keep up with a meta that evolves at the speed of light?

You spend 99% of your life reading forums and piece all the developments together.

 Selym wrote:
You spend 99% of your life reading forums and piece all the developments together.

Impossible for me.

I've spent 7% of my entire life playing WoW. I couldn't possibly have spent 99% on forums.

 General Kroll wrote:
Tau... Never liked them, never thought they fit properly with the setting. And they are horrendously boring to play against.

I can't say id want any deleted. Every faction brings something unique to the game and makes someone happy. I'd like to see the emphasis on the imperium drop so we can look at the galaxy through the eyes of other races, and reading books through their perspective could enhance my enjoyment of what is supposed to be a role playing table top game, but I dont see gw putting major focus on non humans happening anytime soon.

Redseer wrote:
I can't say id want any deleted. Every faction brings something unique to the game and makes someone happy. I'd like to see the emphasis on the imperium drop so we can look at the galaxy through the eyes of other races, and reading books through their perspective could enhance my enjoyment of what is supposed to be a role playing table top game, but I dont see gw putting major focus on non humans happening anytime soon.

They're horrible at writing character driven stories from the perspectives of non-humans though. Have you read anything from the perspective of a Skaven? They "invented" this squeek-speak, where the Skaven are bad at English in a way that makes the double up a lot of verbs. So you don't hide, you scurry-hide. You don't speak, you squeek-speak and you don't steal, you take-steal.

It is annoying as fark to read a whole story filled with this absolute mind drivel. I have always been a huge fan of Skaven, since I was a kid. Never played another Fantasy army, never even felt the smallest inclination to. Everything was Skaven, Skaven was everything. Any other army was simply the enemy. And yet, I can just barely stand playing Mordheim on Steam as Skaven, because after every mission a Skaven is either happy or sad about how the mission went and goes on at length about it in squeek-speak.

I can only imagine how shoddy it would be to read a story fully narrated by an Ork. Omnissiah save us all from the very thought of it.

Well, the way I'd do it is to have all the Ork to Ork interaction be in normal english. After all, to them they are speaking properly.

Then write other races in dialects which convey the Orks view of that race. So the Eldar will probably be super posh, lots of extra H's (hwhere, hwhat, hwhen etc.), effeminate voices etc. as an example.

Not only does this make it non-painful to read but also provides insight into how the other races are perceived by the Orks in a more subtle way than the Ork just saying "'Umies and pointy ears are squishier dan Orks!"

 Purifier wrote:

Redseer wrote:
I can't say id want any deleted. Every faction brings something unique to the game and makes someone happy. I'd like to see the emphasis on the imperium drop so we can look at the galaxy through the eyes of other races, and reading books through their perspective could enhance my enjoyment of what is supposed to be a role playing table top game, but I dont see gw putting major focus on non humans happening anytime soon.

They're horrible at writing character driven stories from the perspectives of non-humans though. Have you read anything from the perspective of a Skaven? They "invented" this squeek-speak, where the Skaven are bad at English in a way that makes the double up a lot of verbs. So you don't hide, you scurry-hide. You don't speak, you squeek-speak and you don't steal, you take-steal.

It is annoying as fark to read a whole story filled with this absolute mind drivel. I have always been a huge fan of Skaven, since I was a kid. Never played another Fantasy army, never even felt the smallest inclination to. Everything was Skaven, Skaven was everything. Any other army was simply the enemy. And yet, I can just barely stand playing Mordheim on Steam as Skaven, because after every mission a Skaven is either happy or sad about how the mission went and goes on at length about it in squeek-speak.

I can only imagine how shoddy it would be to read a story fully narrated by an Ork. Omnissiah save us all from the very thought of it.

its not just nonhumans, have you read some of the post 4E Space Wolves fluff? They do the same thing, with stuff like "murder-make" and whatnot. GW's writing quality really is terrible

The major issue in writing as an alien is making their thoughts, beliefs and decisions differ significantly from humans.

 Purifier wrote:

Redseer wrote:
I can't say id want any deleted. Every faction brings something unique to the game and makes someone happy. I'd like to see the emphasis on the imperium drop so we can look at the galaxy through the eyes of other races, and reading books through their perspective could enhance my enjoyment of what is supposed to be a role playing table top game, but I dont see gw putting major focus on non humans happening anytime soon.

They're horrible at writing character driven stories from the perspectives of non-humans though. Have you read anything from the perspective of a Skaven? They "invented" this squeek-speak, where the Skaven are bad at English in a way that makes the double up a lot of verbs. So you don't hide, you scurry-hide. You don't speak, you squeek-speak and you don't steal, you take-steal.

It is annoying as fark to read a whole story filled with this absolute mind drivel. I have always been a huge fan of Skaven, since I was a kid. Never played another Fantasy army, never even felt the smallest inclination to. Everything was Skaven, Skaven was everything. Any other army was simply the enemy. And yet, I can just barely stand playing Mordheim on Steam as Skaven, because after every mission a Skaven is either happy or sad about how the mission went and goes on at length about it in squeek-speak.

I can only imagine how shoddy it would be to read a story fully narrated by an Ork. Omnissiah save us all from the very thought of it.

I have not read Skaven. But I've read Eldar, Dark Eldar, Corsair, Tau, High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Sylvan, undead, and none of them have any problem with speech. But i can see your point to an extent. But still, you can write it normally, and just utilize speech quirks for actual dialog. As difficult as it could be, I want to see GW branch out for its fans, and give them something different that expands our perception of the universe and the factions within it.

 Purifier wrote:
I can only imagine how shoddy it would be to read a story fully narrated by an Ork. Omnissiah save us all from the very thought of it.

Ork fiction is awesome. It's always a short story about they got to fight

"Me and da ladz ere trowing grotz at the da wall, when one of dem hit da Dok.
Dat Dok was madd at all get out and he trew a big needle at me.
And dat is how I woke up wid dis nifty grot launchin arm."

 adamsouza wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
I can only imagine how shoddy it would be to read a story fully narrated by an Ork. Omnissiah save us all from the very thought of it.

Ork fiction is awesome. It's always a short story about they got to fight

"Me and da ladz ere trowing grotz at the da wall, when one of dem hit da Dok.
Dat Dok was madd at all get out and he trew a big needle at me.
And dat is how I woke up wid dis nifty grot launchin arm."

Gave me a chuckle

OMG. It's on par with Vogon poetry.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OMG. It's on par with Vogon poetry.

I laughed too much at this.