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Me, I'd get rid of Space Marines because they make the game boring, also because they're invariably the ones voting to ban other armies that happen to beat them (i.e. Tau, Eldar). But then I'd kinda want to catch Tau in the crossfire, because they're so fething whiny... And I really hate to play Necrons, because they're never any fun to play against.

Feth it, just burn the whole fething thing down.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Was very surprised by this thread. I know some people dislike elements of the game, but seeing people jump on dumping an entire model line (and probably someones entire army, costing them 1k and up).

Didn't expect people to have such a strong hate against pieces of plastic, and being able to make such a strong decision, without even thinking about the players/modelers behind them.

This is mostly an iddle discussion. Nobody is truly advocating for an entire army to be gone. It's a what if scenario.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Was very surprised by this thread. I know some people dislike elements of the game, but seeing people jump on dumping an entire model line (and probably someones entire army, costing them 1k and up).

Didn't expect people to have such a strong hate against pieces of plastic, and being able to make such a strong decision, without even thinking about the players/modelers behind them.

Methinks you may be taking this too seriously. Nobody is in a position to actually carry any of this out or is super serious about trying to make any of this happen, it's all a hypothetical "if you *had* to..." type exercise, nothing more.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Was very surprised by this thread. I know some people dislike elements of the game, but seeing people jump on dumping an entire model line (and probably someones entire army, costing them 1k and up).

Didn't expect people to have such a strong hate against pieces of plastic, and being able to make such a strong decision, without even thinking about the players/modelers behind them.

Methinks you may be taking this too seriously. Nobody is in a position to actually carry any of this out or is super serious about trying to make any of this happen, it's all a hypothetical "if you *had* to..." type exercise, nothing more.

Also more than a few people have prefaced their posts with a comment about how they wouldn't actually delete any faction if they were given the power to do so in reality.

They developed the Titans for when they didn't have air superiority and they are starting to have issues supplying all the aircraft needed to bring down Titans when they could and are often needed for trying to maintain air superiority.

Recent attacks on the Tau have actually seen them lose air superiority over much of their planet during the attack other than designated zones and specific missions. This is simply due to the utter vastness of scale of the Imperial fleet that they are increasingly held back for Kauyon or mission critical strikes.

It's other intended role is static defense on worlds that simply can't be lost so planets attacked by Tyranids.

This is its initial lore.

GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline.

IMO, "GW" didn't do this. The player base did. You can still play a highly mobile and fairly effective Tau force. You can even play that force AND have the benefits of the "gunline" at the same time (admittedly though there will be more suits than skimmers). It's just easier for most players to line up and sit. Sadly.

As far as what I would retcon -

I picked space marines, but not as in remove them all together. For the sake of grim darkness have them start to dwindle off and bring more attention towards the guard for the supposed end times things

I agree with this completely. I love my marines, but while the fluff gets a little more grim and a little more dark each year, and while that same fluff tells us the IoM is dying and the Marine's are so few; each edition all we see is MORE marine chapters and larger numbers. It's gotten to the point where we regularly see entire chapters engaged in a single conflict in the fluff.

Personally, I prefer the 2nd ed fluff. I would roll them back to that. Back then it was rare (in the fluff) to see more than two or three tac squads at one time. They were used for the "special forces" type missions the IG couldn't handle. To me, this really made them feel special and important. As they are now, Marines can potentially make a better horde army than Orks. That just doesn't sit right with me.


The other faction I'd look at is Newcrons. I always found it funny that GW was going to such lengths to make 40k not be "Warhammer Fantasy in Space" and then turned a fairly original race into "Tomb Kings in Space". WTF GW? I like a lot of their new toys and units, I would just have preferred to see some of those within the context of the Oldcron fluff. I really liked the fact that the C'Tan were these insanely powerful beings who had actually directly tangled with the Old Ones and were still a huge potential threat to the Chaos gods despite the two remaining C'Tan being somewhat diminished. They really felt a lot more "Lovecraftian" than the Chaos forces do (since the Chaos gods all have fairly understandable/relatable motives). I really liked the mystery and general "weirdness" that hung around the Oldcrons.

Tycho wrote:

GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline.

IMO, "GW" didn't do this. The player base did. You can still play a highly mobile and fairly effective Tau force. You can even play that force AND have the benefits of the "gunline" at the same time (admittedly though there will be more suits than skimmers). It's just easier for most players to line up and sit. Sadly.

But that is a flaw in the game design. When GW started introducing units like the Fireblade whose special rules require his attached unit to be stationary and also removed the upgrades which made Tau units mobile (like Advanced Stabilisation from Broadsides, Multi-trackers from vehicles) they made it harder to play the army the way it should. Then there was Supporting Fire which made it better to keep your units bunched up, which is easiest to achieve when you form a gunline. The removal of split fire from our vehicles also made our main tank very inefficient as it was designed with that capability in mind (main weapon for taking out heavy targets and secondary weapons for targeting infantry).

GW removed options which made the Tau mobile and made their vehicles work, whilst giving them incentives to gunline.

They did indeed. I wasn't around but from what you say this is true. Only suits are used in comp because only suits are mobile enough.

I wish we could get our vehicle and broadside mobility back. Among other things. That's GW messing up a good thing though. We also need actually decent melee troops in the Kroot need buffing.

The melee troops we need have to last a long time. I would love to see a new beefier strain of Kroot or a new species introduced to fit this role. This would open up more options.

Basically we have a mini space marine problem. People only use suits because they are so good and thus they sell even better on top of being cool so all we get is more suits which isn't addressing some of the fundamental balance issues of our codex.

It doesn't help the single shot Hammerheads suck ass even when they were new they were sub par to the Broadsides which were over nerfed and should be Str 9 not Str 8. They also need relentless back. We need new options that are good to expand how we play not more suits. I suppose they could design melee suits but that would be against the lore of the TE (but not the FSE). I would like the FSE to get at least one or two unique models to set them apart just a bit. I've detailed what I would like to see done with the army, but our last best chance to see rules revisions went up in flames when the new codex was basically a reprint with new stuff added in. Now we have no hope until perhaps 8th to see some true Tau diversity. I myself played mobile Tau with suits and didn't gunline it up. I would like more options for that. The Breachers were interesting but without a viable transport to get them where they need to be an a lack of being able to shoot when leaving is not great. The FAQ's gak on some of the last non suit builds that were quasiviable in a casual environment. When out next update comes out for end times/8th I bet we'll see even more suits. :( I want other stuff man! Only Forgeworld seems to get it with their Barracuda and rumors of looking into a SH tank. Also Forgeworld is currently the only ones making rules good enough for Tau to be taken even slightly seriously in the ITC meta right now thanks to the Y'vahrah. If Tau want to be viable they need massive buffs, or the top armies need monolithic nerfs.

Hammerheads were great in editions of yore, 3E-5E, when they had twice the chance (or better) to pop a tank on a given shot instead of having to rely on stripping HP's.

I always heard Broadsides were better back then but the HH wasn't bad bad just not as good.

Hammerhead used to have pseudofast, which it never should have lost.

Broadsides got you more raw firepower, but Hammerheads got you mobility, resiliency and versatility. They paired with the old "fish-o-fury" concept much better than broadsides did. When I built my Tau army in 4E, it had 3 Railheads and, coupled with 9 Plasma/Missile Pod Crisis Suits, that was really all the AT one needed back then (particularly against nonskimmer armies), and the rest of the army was a Crisis commander and 4 squads of Fire Warriors in Devilfish.

I voted squat maybe last night. Am pretty freaked out to see that option has been removed from the poll and GW no longer sell them! :S

No one else vote before we lose more factions!

This entire page is making me reconsider whether I should have just bandwagoned with the SM guys and added to the "ban Tau" brigade.

 Gamgee wrote:
I always heard Broadsides were better back then but the HH wasn't bad bad just not as good.

Broadsides had the advantage of being cheaper than the Hammerhead, having the same gun (but twin-linked) and being able to be taken in units of three in one Heavy Supoort slot. The Hammerhead brought mobility, toughness and more anti-infantry capabilities in the form of submunition rounds and its secondary weapon systems though.

Now HYMP Broadsides bring just about as much anti infantry killing power as the Hammerhead and are better at stripping Hullpoints, which is a more reliable method of taking out vehicles than hoping for an explode result in the vehicle damage table when you only get one roll on it per turn.

Had a bit of a think about it and I'll add a few more things to the list.
Gargantuan Creatures/Walkers and Superheavies - Relegate them back to Apoc where they belong.
Allies - Yeah, that'd stop a lot of whining.
Blood Angels - Relegate these useless bums back to the Vanilla Marine codex, they don't do anything outside the norm.

 Vaktathi wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
Custodes, no models or rules, why bother mention them at all. Besides, it's the Imperial Fists that truly defend Terra.

Their role isn't to defend Terra, it's to defend the physical body of the Emperor. The Emperor just so happens to be on Terra

I believe that you have that reversed.

SYKOJAK wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
Custodes, no models or rules, why bother mention them at all. Besides, it's the Imperial Fists that truly defend Terra.

Their role isn't to defend Terra, it's to defend the physical body of the Emperor. The Emperor just so happens to be on Terra

I believe that you have that reversed.

I think they were talking about the Custodes.

Aye, that was all in reference to the Custodes.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Tau, no questions asked.

If they replaced all their guns with samurai swords, then they can stay.

I feel the same lol

Oh god no, theres enough melee in 40k as it is, and we dont need more katana hype.

Tycho wrote:

GW apparently finds that too hard to write rules for so instead they have been made into a static gunline.

IMO, "GW" didn't do this. The player base did. You can still play a highly mobile and fairly effective Tau force.

You mean Fish of Fury?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Oh god no, theres enough melee in 40k as it is, and we dont need more katana hype.

Yes, it's pretty boring seeing a squad of space swordsmen on the field - you just know for a fact that they're never going to see combat.

GW should cut down on melee. Perhaps make it less valid by making overwatch occur at Bs2, and allow blast weapons to overwatch for 2D6 hits.

 Selym wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Oh god no, theres enough melee in 40k as it is, and we dont need more katana hype.

Yes, it's pretty boring seeing a squad of space swordsmen on the field - you just know for a fact that they're never going to see combat.

GW should cut down on melee. Perhaps make it less valid by making overwatch occur at Bs2, and allow blast weapons to overwatch for 2D6 hits.

I've been gone a long time.

Because around a year ago, everyone was saying melee is gak in 40k.

How do you guys keep up with a meta that evolves at the speed of light?

You spend 99% of your life reading forums and piece all the developments together.

 Selym wrote:
You spend 99% of your life reading forums and piece all the developments together.

Impossible for me.

I've spent 7% of my entire life playing WoW. I couldn't possibly have spent 99% on forums.

 General Kroll wrote:
Tau... Never liked them, never thought they fit properly with the setting. And they are horrendously boring to play against.

I can't say id want any deleted. Every faction brings something unique to the game and makes someone happy. I'd like to see the emphasis on the imperium drop so we can look at the galaxy through the eyes of other races, and reading books through their perspective could enhance my enjoyment of what is supposed to be a role playing table top game, but I dont see gw putting major focus on non humans happening anytime soon.

Redseer wrote:
I can't say id want any deleted. Every faction brings something unique to the game and makes someone happy. I'd like to see the emphasis on the imperium drop so we can look at the galaxy through the eyes of other races, and reading books through their perspective could enhance my enjoyment of what is supposed to be a role playing table top game, but I dont see gw putting major focus on non humans happening anytime soon.

They're horrible at writing character driven stories from the perspectives of non-humans though. Have you read anything from the perspective of a Skaven? They "invented" this squeek-speak, where the Skaven are bad at English in a way that makes the double up a lot of verbs. So you don't hide, you scurry-hide. You don't speak, you squeek-speak and you don't steal, you take-steal.

It is annoying as fark to read a whole story filled with this absolute mind drivel. I have always been a huge fan of Skaven, since I was a kid. Never played another Fantasy army, never even felt the smallest inclination to. Everything was Skaven, Skaven was everything. Any other army was simply the enemy. And yet, I can just barely stand playing Mordheim on Steam as Skaven, because after every mission a Skaven is either happy or sad about how the mission went and goes on at length about it in squeek-speak.

I can only imagine how shoddy it would be to read a story fully narrated by an Ork. Omnissiah save us all from the very thought of it.

Well, the way I'd do it is to have all the Ork to Ork interaction be in normal english. After all, to them they are speaking properly.

Then write other races in dialects which convey the Orks view of that race. So the Eldar will probably be super posh, lots of extra H's (hwhere, hwhat, hwhen etc.), effeminate voices etc. as an example.

Not only does this make it non-painful to read but also provides insight into how the other races are perceived by the Orks in a more subtle way than the Ork just saying "'Umies and pointy ears are squishier dan Orks!"