Saw this online from Lil'legend studios, the model looks legit to me, I can't spot any bits that would give it away as a bash... but the paint job seems a touch underwhelming, which is the only thing holding me back -
Take it with salt, but here it is:
Overall, a pretty awesome looking model and design if you ask me, a master painter could do truly spectacular things with that. What do you guys think, real?
Sprues from Faeit:
Shot from Spikey Bits
From BOLS:
NOTE: Smaller model is a test run, a reverse 3-up (3-down?), the final size is in fact the large one -
That doesn't look half bad. I'd been thinkin of doing a Thousand sons themed army, an Magnus would be the perfect centerpiece. Shame it'll probably be upwards to $130+. I would love it, wifey would kill me for spending all that dollarino on one model.
If it is real, I can certainly see how it could combi-kit to a lord of change. The clawed feet and hands could stay the same, the horns on the chest could be optional, and the wings would certainly suit. the only thing that would have to change would be the head.
Just bought a 1500pt deathwatch army. They are my third favorite 40K faction behind Sisters of Battle (2nd) and Thousand Sons (1st) and just ahead of my Blood Ravens (#4). Old, hard to find models have kept me from pursuing the first two as there isn't enough variety in Thousand Sons and what few sisters models are left on the store really can't get you a decent army. Now Magnus is (allegedly) officially a thing and Sisters have (allegedly) been tasked out to someone in the design studio.
I also just started painting my AoS Death army, so I have legit ZERO money for Thousand Sons or Sisters.
Its real. That is way too good to be fake. Also looks like the box was smuggled out of a chinese factory in that condition.
also to the very right of the picture. looks like another base. mabye a magus at marine size (or non demon primarch size anyway) with alternate rules for 30k or just to use?
BrookM wrote: If it were a combi-kit it would have a smaller picture in the bottom showing off the other build options included.
Unless they changed this with the new box designs again.
Skarbrand's box doesn't have a smaller picture since it only comes with the parts to make Skarbrand and not a generic Bloodthirster. They could probably do the same thing here since it gives them an excuse to charge more ($130 compared to $115 since people may want multiple of the same greater demon but only one of the named unique options). Just my two cents.
The Lord of Change is rumored (by SP) to be at the end of the entire Tzeentch releases. 2017 most likely. It was never rumored to be a dual kit with Magnus.
BrookM wrote: If it were a combi-kit it would have a smaller picture in the bottom showing off the other build options included.
Unless they changed this with the new box designs again.
Skarbrand's box doesn't have a smaller picture since it only comes with the parts to make Skarbrand and not a generic Bloodthirster. They could probably do the same thing here since it gives them an excuse to charge more ($130 compared to $115 since people may want multiple of the same greater demon but only one of the named unique options). Just my two cents.
The pic is also missing the right side of the box. You can tell because the name on the box is always centered.
Well as a Daemon primarch he can likely be used by several factions and maybe even games set around 30k - after or during Prospero Burns.
As with Genestealer Cults its refreshing to see GW not navel gazing and making just more and more Marines - usually of the same old Chapters.
I would think that they will sell very well - better than say a box of different coloured marines
Did they sell many Nagashm or Glotkin? And thats for a whole range that was dying.
That's why I bring it up, I really think one of the reasons Fantasy was killed is GW invested too much in (very very nice) expensive kits that players would buy one of at best. The flying Vampire throne ghost army thing for example.
A box of (dare I say it?) Battle Sisters or new IG or something might only have the same number of buyers but those buyers would get 5, 10 or 20 of them. The thought process for Maguns would be:
Do I play 40k?
Do I play Chaos marines?
Do I play 1000 Sons?
Do I want this?
Can I afford it?
Will it be effective in a game?
So you might not even get all of the 1k Son players out there.
Now there will be some people whose process is:
Damn this is sweet
I will buy it
I will start a new 1000 Sons army
But will there be enough to make this profitable?
I dunno.
I'd say GW knows what they're doing but Age of Sigmar says (SCREAMS!) otherwise.
Is it just me or is there the edge of a second, square based miniature on the right hand side of the image? Magnus is so far off centre on the image that it has to be a two model kit or he'd be front and centre.
An all plastic giant unique special character for an obscure faction of a currently underpower unpopular army?
How much did they invest in this?
I just don't understand the logic.
Yeah he's the first primarch to come from GW since Leman Russ back in the day, yeah he'll look pretty sweet but...
Can they really make money with a kit like this? A plastic Lord of Change with an alternate Magnus head wouldn't work?
It's entirely possible that one of the sprues in this kit will indeed be used for a plastic Lord of Change (and hopefully Fatweaver) box set. Similar to how the Bloodthirster was released, then Skarbrand, both kits share a common sprue.
Looking at this model, I can see several elements that would go well for a plastic LoC.
Why GW releases these big character kits by themselves instead of in 1 combined kit is beyond me.
Well as a Daemon primarch he can likely be used by several factions and maybe even games set around 30k - after or during Prospero Burns.
As with Genestealer Cults its refreshing to see GW not navel gazing and making just more and more Marines - usually of the same old Chapters.
I would think that they will sell very well - better than say a box of different coloured marines
Did they sell many Nagashm or Glotkin? And thats for a whole range that was dying.
That's why I bring it up, I really think one of the reasons Fantasy was killed is GW invested too much in (very very nice) expensive kits that players would buy one of at best. The flying Vampire throne ghost army thing for example.
A box of (dare I say it?) Battle Sisters or new IG or something might only have the same number of buyers but those buyers would get 5, 10 or 20 of them. The thought process for Maguns would be:
Do I play 40k?
Do I play Chaos marines?
Do I play 1000 Sons?
Do I want this?
Can I afford it?
Will it be effective in a game?
So you might not even get all of the 1k Son players out there.
Now there will be some people whose process is:
Damn this is sweet
I will buy it
I will start a new 1000 Sons army
But will there be enough to make this profitable?
I dunno.
I'd say GW knows what they're doing but Age of Sigmar says (SCREAMS!) otherwise.
Lahimarian throne is a dual kit- So far bought 3 I think - might have 4? - may have to get another one or two for conversions - one is already being done as part of a Dark Eldar superheavy.
I assumed that they needed to make less big kits to make a profit than small unit boxes?
I think quite a few of GW customers have a thought process of:
Does it look cool? Yeah I want it yesterday. They sell plenty of Ltd Edition Codexes and even I don't buy them.
An all plastic giant unique special character for an obscure faction of a currently underpower unpopular army?
How much did they invest in this?
Obscure faction of an unpopular army? Bruh, Chaos Space Marines are the main bad guy of the narrative. They always have been, always will be, and despite what their tabletop performance might say, CSM is a main selling point of 40k as a whole. And as far as traitor factions go, Thousand Sons are no more obscure than any other one.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I'd say GW knows what they're doing but Age of Sigmar says (SCREAMS!) otherwise.
Then you haven't been paying attention. 2016 GW is vastly different (and superior) to 2015 GW.
I like the model but wished they would have minimized the horn nipples. I'm no prude but I just find them odd and a bit out of place regardless of the old blanche art.
I do like the nods to the Del Toro creature asthetics though (which probably were in turn inspired in part from 40k... the circle of inspiration is complete!).
Ghaz wrote: If the pic is real, it would indicate that Thousand Sons are now their own Faction.
The part that throws me off is the faction symbol. Not only does it not match what you would expect, but the fact that there even is one is weird to me. Neither the blood thirster nor skarbrand have a faction symbol.
Ghaz wrote: If the pic is real, it would indicate that Thousand Sons are now their own Faction.
The part that throws me off is the faction symbol. Not only does it not match what you would expect, but the fact that there even is one is weird to me. Neither the blood thirster nor skarbrand have a faction symbol.
Both of those are in Age of Sigmar style boxes, labeled for use in both AoS and 40K. Since Magnus is strictly a 40K model he's in a 40K style box.
I think it's the side of the Box with Part of the Base cut off so it looks like a rectangular base.
the Text is not in the Middleton of the Box like on the currently Kits, But the Background colo strongly implies that there is indem the edle of the cover
An all plastic giant unique special character for an obscure faction of a currently underpower unpopular army?
How much did they invest in this?
I just don't understand the logic.
Yeah he's the first primarch to come from GW since Leman Russ back in the day, yeah he'll look pretty sweet but...
Can they really make money with a kit like this? A plastic Lord of Change with an alternate Magnus head wouldn't work?
Outside of game rules the Thousand Sons / Magnus are in many ways the most iconic of the patron specific legions. There are more books about them, and more interest in the backstory of Magnus using sorcery to warn the Emperor and the aftermath of all that than any of the other god specific legions have in the 40k setting. They are also from many standpoints the most benign topic of "chaos" to market to kids in the world today. Yeah they have the worst unit in the 40k book (rubric marines are just bad...) but that doesn't mean it will always be that way. With the upcoming 30k release and GW taking the past 30k releases and making many of the units usable in 40k officially, its very possible new units will have to be made for the 30k boxed game which will have to not be totally terribad and they will be ported to 40k. That with cults/daemons/formations could make for a decent 40k army kind of thousand sons version of KDK.
Interest in armies is mostly based on having good rules, the reason SMs sale so well is mostly driven by they have so many useful formations/units where some armies just plain don't. Anyone is more likely to sale models if the rules are good, than if you have bad rules(non competitive) where you will get hobbyists and people who really like the background for that army- but that's a small demographic.
imagine if GSC were released with a 7th edition codex which was more dark eldar/ork quality. You would get some people to buy them because background / new models. However you wouldn't get as many to buy them as if you realeased them with good rules.
The point of which is, from a background standpoint many people are interested in the thousand sons. From a game play standpoint, they aren't because there are few unit options and they are all bad outside of daemons. If you gave them good unit options, you have a good chance to have a well selling army.
Ghaz wrote: If the pic is real, it would indicate that Thousand Sons are now their own Faction.
The part that throws me off is the faction symbol. Not only does it not match what you would expect, but the fact that there even is one is weird to me. Neither the blood thirster nor skarbrand have a faction symbol.
Both of those are in Age of Sigmar style boxes, labeled for use in both AoS and 40K. Since Magnus is strictly a 40K model he's in a 40K style box.
I guess it might actually be legit then. Though that makes me wonder. We already saw the the art for the next fenris book. I can't imagine they would feature more tzeentch daemons in the book, nor can I see them introducing a new faction/codex in a campaign book.
So I wonder from when this picture is, assuming it's legit. And if this really means that we'd get a new codex. They don't seem to have a problem giving us new codices, so what does that mean for fenris part two?
Is there a release schedule for this month rumored yet? That is from this week till the Prospero box at the end of the month? I wonder where ol Magnus fits in 2016.
Well as a Daemon primarch he can likely be used by several factions and maybe even games set around 30k - after or during Prospero Burns.
As with Genestealer Cults its refreshing to see GW not navel gazing and making just more and more Marines - usually of the same old Chapters.
I would think that they will sell very well - better than say a box of different coloured marines
Did they sell many Nagashm or Glotkin? And thats for a whole range that was dying.
That's why I bring it up, I really think one of the reasons Fantasy was killed is GW invested too much in (very very nice) expensive kits that players would buy one of at best. The flying Vampire throne ghost army thing for example.
A box of (dare I say it?) Battle Sisters or new IG or something might only have the same number of buyers but those buyers would get 5, 10 or 20 of them. The thought process for Maguns would be:
Do I play 40k?
Do I play Chaos marines?
Do I play 1000 Sons?
Do I want this?
Can I afford it?
Will it be effective in a game?
So you might not even get all of the 1k Son players out there.
Now there will be some people whose process is:
Damn this is sweet
I will buy it
I will start a new 1000 Sons army
But will there be enough to make this profitable?
I dunno.
I'd say GW knows what they're doing but Age of Sigmar says (SCREAMS!) otherwise.
Your logic makes no sense to me. This is the kind of model that make people want to start a Thousand Sons Army. I already have plenty of started army and i'll have to start another one just because, plastic daemon primarch! People don't just play one army anymore, that's the ultra competitive people, which are now a minority imo.
This will do me I have an ever growing 30k Legion that I might use also in 40k....plus would make a great deamon prince for my Warriors of Chaos as well, nothing worse than rolling a 12 on the 'eye of the gods' table and not having a deamon!
Looks great, the bird skulls on his leg plates and the flaming runes on the feathers are really nice touches. I'm just afraid that my average at best painting skills will not do him justice. This model does make me think even more that we will see red 1k sons in 40k as Magnus loyalists, as well as the blue and gold of Ahriman's faction.
I like the miniature...
What concerns me are the implications about the return of some or all the primarchs in 40K...
To return some of them they should make some huge things to the setting or just simply [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express this - Alpharius] it to the core...
For example Angron was banished for 1000 years by the GK during the first war of armageddon... now if they make him come back just after few centuries will be a [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express this - Alpharius] of the fluff...
The Lion will return only when the Emperor will forgive the legion and reforge the sword... If the Emperor is still on the throne and Cypher still roaming and the Fallen still Unforgiven and they make Lion return they will [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express this - Alpharius] the setting...
And so on...
In addiction if they make only some primarchs return they will make upset they fans of the other ones... And if the returning primarchs will lead some other forces they could make some people very upset...
For Example if they return Dorn to guide the DA i will be very upset cause i think Dorn is the dumbest of all primarchs and i want it NEVER to be inn any relationship with the DA...
IMHO this is a good model but i guess will be a losing move by GW...
What kind of rules would he have? Mastery Level 9?
FMC Mastery lvl 5
2+ 4++
Can fire the same Witchfire spells multiple times
Gets to reroll 1's on Psychic dice
Deny the Witch on 4+
Gets to choose his spells
Only Perils on Double 6's
Fear
EW FUN Tzeentch randomness
master sheol wrote: I like the miniature...
What concerns me are the implications about the return of some or all the primarchs in 40K...
To return some of them they should make some huge things to the setting or just simply rape it to the core...
For example Angron was banished for 1000 years by the GK during the first war of armageddon... now if they make him come back just after few centuries will be a raping of the fluff...
The Lion will return only when the Emperor will forgive the legion and reforge the sword... If the Emperor is still on the throne and Cypher still roaming and the Fallen still Unforgiven and they make Lion return they will rape the setting...
And so on...
In addiction if they make only some primarchs return they will make upset they fans of the other ones... And if the returning rimarchs will lead some other forces they could make some people very upset...
For Example if they return Dorn to guide the DA i will be very upset cause i think Dorn is the dumbest of all primarchs and i want it NEVER to be inn any relationship with the DA...
IMHO this is a good model but i guess will be a losing move by GW...
I think you need to go and find a dictionary and read the definition of the term "rape" for starters.
Yes if they handle the return of the Primarchs badly, they could handle the setting badly, but no more than you are handling the English language badly.
Hastings had already rumored a "Plague army release" and Mortarion (and Guilliman, Russ and Angron) a month ago. Atia mentioned a Mortarion (and Angron) release. Sounds like a similiar Death Guard 40k wave in 2017. Next will be a loyal Primarch according to Sad Panda.
This has been the year of the retro-return. They are clearly mining their old catalog for ideas. It'd be a good bet to say they are bringing back old models. Angron, Mortarion, and Fulgrim are all likely candidates as they all had old Epic models.
If this had been released 10 years ago as a Daemon Prince for a Chaos Warriors army, you would say, that's a decent Daemon Prince, I might buy that.
But as an iconic character of 40k? Not for me.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Magnus was a Cyclops or something, but there's not hint of that here, as far as my eyes and this picture could tell.
The feet are terrible, the paint job doesn't do it justice, and although I wouldn't go as far to say it was phoned in, it's bang average IMO. The gold armour cheapens it and makes it look like an AOS figure, as though they were hedging their bets.
What a let down for such an important 40k legend...
Genestealer cult models were first class, excellent, but it's one step forward, two back. Again!
If this had been released 10 years ago as a Daemon Prince for a Chaos Warriors army, you would say, that's a decent Daemon Prince, I might buy that.
But as an iconic character of 40k? Not for me.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Magnus was a Cyclops or something, but there's not hint of that here, as far as my eyes and this picture could tell.
The feet are terrible, the paint job doesn't do it justice, and although I wouldn't go as far to say it was phoned in, it's bang average IMO. The gold armour cheapens it and makes it look like an AOS figure, as though they were hedging their bets.
What a let down for such an important 40k legend...
Genestealer cult models were first class, excellent, but it's one step forward, two back. Again!
Final rating 4/10
To be fair, these are blurry photos of a box someone pulled out of a dumpster. I'm going to wait until I see it up on the webstore and in person.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: That's why I bring it up, I really think one of the reasons Fantasy was killed is GW invested too much in (very very nice) expensive kits that players would buy one of at best. The flying Vampire throne ghost army thing for example.
But will there be enough to make this profitable?
I dunno.
I'd say GW knows what they're doing but Age of Sigmar says (SCREAMS!) otherwise.
It seems GW has figured way to make plastic moulds that aren't as expensive as they used to be. Maybe at the expense of size of print run? Can't really justify making one pose HQ's or special characters in plastic like they have been doing...Oh few years now? So plastic magnus is hardly new thing. Hell Magnus probably has larger selling potential than say certain space wolf SC...
master sheol wrote: I like the miniature...
What concerns me are the implications about the return of some or all the primarchs in 40K....
I think there is a lot of potential for both really good and really bad background coming from this. The demon Primarchs should have there own agendas and not just be following Abaddons crusade. Magnus in particular should be about more than revenge against the wolves, once he's done with Fenris I could see him turning his eye to the Black legion. Any retuning loyalists would probably shake things up the most as the background is Imperium centred. I doubt the high lords and the church would be to pleased to see guys like Dorn or Gulliman coming back.
If this had been released 10 years ago as a Daemon Prince for a Chaos Warriors army, you would say, that's a decent Daemon Prince, I might buy that.
But as an iconic character of 40k? Not for me.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Magnus was a Cyclops or something, but there's not hint of that here, as far as my eyes and this picture could tell.
The feet are terrible, the paint job doesn't do it justice, and although I wouldn't go as far to say it was phoned in, it's bang average IMO. The gold armour cheapens it and makes it look like an AOS figure, as though they were hedging their bets.
What a let down for such an important 40k legend...
Genestealer cult models were first class, excellent, but it's one step forward, two back. Again!
Final rating 4/10
To be fair, these are blurry photos of a box someone pulled out of a dumpster. I'm going to wait until I see it up on the webstore and in person.
Fair enough, but I think the picture is fine. I appreciate the fact that even if this model were perfect, somebody would complain, that's life, but for such an iconic figure of 40k, they should have thrown the kitchen sink at this...
It feels as though it was done by the numbers. The detail is pretty standard. The gold armour looks cheap, and the pose is flat, giving us none of the dynamism that we should expect from a model of this stature...
There is none of the trickery or mutation you would expect from a Tzeentch daemon, never mind one as important as Magnus. It feels flat and lifeless.
Silver Tower had some fine Tzeentch daemons and a colour scheme worthy of the name, but red and gold is more Khorne in my view...
It's not some random tzeentch daemon. It's magnus the red, hint, he's supposed to be red. The gold also fits. The model pretty much looks like I would expect magnus to look like, although the pose could be a bit more exciting. I would at least expected some kind of spell effect in the hand he's stretching out for example.
DINLT: Red and brass is Khorne. Red and gold is Magnus' Legion heraldry. He's also a Daemon of Tzeentch, so he can be whatever colour you like really.
He's still a Cyclops. Though not in the traditional sense.
Red and Gold are the colours of the Thousand Sons though (and I believe the Thousand Sons that follow Magnus are still red, it's only Ahrimans that are blue right?) and he is called Magnus the red... I think the gold hasn't photographed very well and that's part of what's throwing me off atm, I agree it looks cheap, but it's either just the paint or the photo that's making it look like that. And it's never been clear if he's a cyclops with one eye in the middle or with only one eye but two sockets, I think it's quite mutable, his appearance is meant to change and shift when you look at him.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: There is none of the trickery or mutation you would expect from a Tzeentch daemon, never mind one as important as Magnus. It feels flat and lifeless.
Silver Tower had some fine Tzeentch daemons and a colour scheme worthy of the name, but red and gold is more Khorne in my view...
My impression was he had that gak locked down and was a master of what change he wanted.
He's not a silver tower goon at tzeentch's command.
Plus the rubic spell that was cast to protect the thousand sons from the corruption of chaos would have captured and protected him too?
It certainly didn't turn him to dust.
Looks decent enough, but any wild guesses on how much it would cost, if legit? I don't know how much the FW primarchs are, but I've a feeling they're going to milk their first plastic primarch demon prince for all it's worth.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Looks decent enough, but any wild guesses on how much it would cost, if legit? I don't know how much the FW primarchs are, but I've a feeling they're going to milk their first plastic primarch demon prince for all it's worth.
What kind of rules would he have? Mastery Level 9?
FMC Mastery lvl 5
2+ 4++
Can fire the same Witchfire spells multiple times
Gets to reroll 1's on Psychic dice
Deny the Witch on 4+
Gets to choose his spells
Only Perils on Double 6's
Fear
EW FUN Tzeentch randomness
They could also follow current design from FW and give him primarch abilities.. instead of doing what they do best (fail at rules writing). Demon primarchs ARE stronger than normal primarchs so it makes sense to start with them as a base, and then make him stronger.
Of course, we'll probably get Kairos with a headswap.
I find it funny how Genestealer Cults and Deathwatch had way more excitement than this. The model looks good, but I'm just not interested in chaos so this holds no interest to me. It's an ominous sign for chaos. Sort of like getting the black spot put on you.
I just saw the warhammer TV bit, and started giggling out loud to myself in my office. I may not forgive GW for all their sins, but the self deferential humor they have been using lately is totally working on me!
That better not just be GW playing a cruel joke on us! Top marks to them, though, for handling the leaks in this way, giving us something a little more as well. Interesting that they mention the sprue is Thousand Sons, I wonder if that means the models in the Prospero set aren't going to be generic or whether it's for a seperate 40k Tsons box?
They know the leaks aren't going to stop, they can't stem the flow completely, so once they happen they're just jumping in and confirming it.
Of course, the plastic sisters of battle aren't real, you realise...? Just Magnus and the Thousand Sons (although they're only confirming what we knew has been coming for a few months now).
But yes, more of this kind of thing. Anybody maintaining their cynicism at this point is just... I mean, they're beyond help.
Roknar wrote: It's not some random tzeentch daemon. It's magnus the red, hint, he's supposed to be red. The gold also fits. The model pretty much looks like I would expect magnus to look like, although the pose could be a bit more exciting. I would at least expected some kind of spell effect in the hand he's stretching out for example.
My knowledge of 40k fluff is not what it used to be, but I always though that Magnus the Red was so called because he had a red beard or red hair or something, rather than the colour of his skin...
Roknar wrote: It's not some random tzeentch daemon. It's magnus the red, hint, he's supposed to be red. The gold also fits. The model pretty much looks like I would expect magnus to look like, although the pose could be a bit more exciting. I would at least expected some kind of spell effect in the hand he's stretching out for example.
My knowledge of 40k fluff is not what it used to be, but I always though that Magnus the Red was so called because he had a red beard or red hair or something, rather than the colour of his skin...
angelofvengeance wrote: DINLT: Red and brass is Khorne. Red and gold is Magnus' Legion heraldry. He's also a Daemon of Tzeentch, so he can be whatever colour you like really.
He's still a Cyclops. Though not in the traditional sense.
I appreciate the fact that red and gold is the legion colours of the Thousand sons, but in my 30 years of gaming in the Games Workshop universe, there's always been this unwritten rule:
Nurgle = green
Khorne = red and brass/gold
Slaanesh = Pink
Tzeentch = blue
It looks too much like a servant of the war god for my liking...
Roknar wrote: It's not some random tzeentch daemon. It's magnus the red, hint, he's supposed to be red. The gold also fits. The model pretty much looks like I would expect magnus to look like, although the pose could be a bit more exciting. I would at least expected some kind of spell effect in the hand he's stretching out for example.
My knowledge of 40k fluff is not what it used to be, but I always though that Magnus the Red was so called because he had a red beard or red hair or something, rather than the colour of his skin...
This is amazing. I'm loving this community outreach. Hoping some people will go sleuthing through this video more for clues. Was that Khorne stuff at the top of the recycle bin?
The video is more HD style now and if you pause at the poster it's clearly Thousand Sons. The guy deliberately takes him time and covers up what I am going to guess is a Lord of Change (why cover up Magnus art?)
The sprues are too unclear to see but it could be Prospero box. The bin has just chaos vehicle sprues in it by the look of it.
rollawaythestone wrote: This is amazing. I'm loving this community outreach. Hoping some people will go sleuthing through this video more for clues. Was that Khorne stuff at the top of the recycle bin?
It looked to me like the old Chaos upgrade sprue on top. The chains, spikes, I think its the old one.
Kijamon wrote: The video is more HD style now and if you pause at the poster it's clearly Thousand Sons. The guy deliberately takes him time and covers up what I am going to guess is a Lord of Change (why cover up Magnus art?)
By that logic, why cover up a Lord of Change's art?
Truthfully, it looked like it was the cover to codex. Most definitely the part being covered up was Magnus though.
angelofvengeance wrote: DINLT: Red and brass is Khorne. Red and gold is Magnus' Legion heraldry. He's also a Daemon of Tzeentch, so he can be whatever colour you like really.
He's still a Cyclops. Though not in the traditional sense.
I appreciate the fact that red and gold is the legion colours of the Thousand sons, but in my 30 years of gaming in the Games Workshop universe, there's always been this unwritten rule:
Nurgle = green
Khorne = red and brass/gold
Slaanesh = Pink
Tzeentch = blue
It looks too much like a servant of the war god for my liking...
It's a red that is quite close to the blue spectrum (looping around).
Kijamon wrote: The video is more HD style now and if you pause at the poster it's clearly Thousand Sons. The guy deliberately takes him time and covers up what I am going to guess is a Lord of Change (why cover up Magnus art?)
By that logic, why cover up a Lord of Change's art?
Truthfully, it looked like it was the cover to codex. Most definitely the part being covered up was Magnus though.
I vote on Magnus also. The other guy in the artwork appears to be the Gaunt Summoner.
Meh.. Higher quality picture makes me not want to buy the model. Yet again they go completely overboard with symbols, IE EAGLE BEAKS. Why does he need so many of them? Its like Khorne models overdoing the skulls.
angelofvengeance wrote: DINLT: Red and brass is Khorne. Red and gold is Magnus' Legion heraldry. He's also a Daemon of Tzeentch, so he can be whatever colour you like really.
He's still a Cyclops. Though not in the traditional sense.
I appreciate the fact that red and gold is the legion colours of the Thousand sons, but in my 30 years of gaming in the Games Workshop universe, there's always been this unwritten rule:
Nurgle = green
Khorne = red and brass/gold
Slaanesh = Pink
Tzeentch = blue
It looks too much like a servant of the war god for my liking...
It's a red that is quite close to the blue spectrum (looping around).
Kijamon wrote: The video is more HD style now and if you pause at the poster it's clearly Thousand Sons. The guy deliberately takes him time and covers up what I am going to guess is a Lord of Change (why cover up Magnus art?)
By that logic, why cover up a Lord of Change's art?
Truthfully, it looked like it was the cover to codex. Most definitely the part being covered up was Magnus though.
I vote on Magnus also. The other guy in the artwork appears to be the Gaunt Summoner.
Nah, it`s Ahriman (you judge by the staff and the helmet + you can see a backpack behind him
I`m more excited about GW`s responce and "hint" on sisters of battle, rather Magnus` model!
Don`t really like the miniature, but I`m happy about the fact, that they`re releasing a DP primarch. That`s on one hand.. On the other, I kinda miss the mysterious feeling warhammer 40K gave me back in the day, when I joined. Now everything seems to be about to get exposed! But that`s IMHO
I think the model shows restraint on the part of the sculptor. Sure there's a lot of armor detail, but I expected him to be standing on one foot in a crane position with swirly stuff moving around him and pink horrors being ejected from his hands. I'm exaggerating here, but you know what you I mean. I'm not really even opposed to OTT sculpts, in the right application. But to me Magnus is less OTT than he could have been (in a good way), and should look good on crazier-looking 40K or more subdued 30K tables.
It looks like Magnus is standing on a contemptor dreadnought arm. Was he a daemon primarch during the time of the Heresy or is GW just enjoying their contemptors over the previous washing machine dreadnought?
Nice, kind of gives me zero incentive to finish my own Lord of Change.
Spoiler:
I REALLY HOPE THIS MEANS PLASTIC THOUSAND SONS
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Accolade wrote: It looks like Magnus is standing on a contemptor dreadnought arm. Was he a daemon primarch during the time of the Heresy or is GW just enjoying their contemptors over the previous washing machine dreadnought?
Isn't he a Daemon when Prospero is destroyed?
Russ blinds him before they go to the planet of sorcerers.
With all the gold & blue on him, there isn't a question that he is Tzeencth. I am dying to know if this kit is a dual kit that makes a LoC. It would be a wasted opportunity for GW not to do this.
angelofvengeance wrote: DINLT: Red and brass is Khorne. Red and gold is Magnus' Legion heraldry. He's also a Daemon of Tzeentch, so he can be whatever colour you like really.
He's still a Cyclops. Though not in the traditional sense.
I appreciate the fact that red and gold is the legion colours of the Thousand sons, but in my 30 years of gaming in the Games Workshop universe, there's always been this unwritten rule:
Nurgle = green
Khorne = red and brass/gold
Slaanesh = Pink
Tzeentch = blue
It looks too much like a servant of the war god for my liking...
Roknar wrote: It's not some random tzeentch daemon. It's magnus the red, hint, he's supposed to be red. The gold also fits. The model pretty much looks like I would expect magnus to look like, although the pose could be a bit more exciting. I would at least expected some kind of spell effect in the hand he's stretching out for example.
My knowledge of 40k fluff is not what it used to be, but I always though that Magnus the Red was so called because he had a red beard or red hair or something, rather than the colour of his skin...
No, he's had red skin for a long time now.
He's no communist!
It's unwritten because it's a fallacy in fairness.
I wouldnt be surprised if magnus was kinda stand alone, maybe sharing a sprue with a lord of change kit at most, and they release another 3 variants of LOC kit with fateweaver sharing a sprue between them somewhat mirroring the bloodthirster + skarbrand release.
His entire body is too muscular and humanoid to be included in a LOC kit, at least IMO.
Maybe it is because of the paint job, but not too impressed. Look like an action figure. And I must say that it is a terrible idea to release these primarchs before we even got plastic greater daemons.
Just imagine if he said "Plastic Squats" instead. What kind of uproar that would have made.
Got to admit, when he first covered up the poster we thought they wouldn't show anything, then they show a sprue, then we are thinking may then I was thinking they would show a box in another recycling bin, but not the complete model. Well done. Didn't think they could top this and then the "plastic sisters of battle". I thought when I herd "sisters" it would be Sisters of Silence, but nope.
How are they ever going to top this now? So simple, but yet so elegant and awesome.
Am I being optimistic or does is the whole csm-sprues-in-the-bin thing a poke at the state of csm and that they are aware of it? Rather than just random sprues.
Roknar wrote: Am I being optimistic or does is the whole csm-sprues-in-the-bin thing a poke at the state of csm and that they are aware of it? Rather than just random sprues.
Yeah, there is clearly a reason there - a joke, a hint of whats to come, or something.
I struggle to believe they'd joke about plastic Sisters just because the backlash would be severe but they never specified a date so they have infinite time on a release window so who knows. Many things are coming out and my money just can't handle it!
Roknar wrote: Am I being optimistic or does is the whole csm-sprues-in-the-bin thing a poke at the state of csm and that they are aware of it? Rather than just random sprues.
Yeah, there is clearly a reason there - a joke, a hint of whats to come, or something.
The easiest logical route would take us to new CSM vehicle upgrade sprue. But that would be too easy
Besides, he daid: "THAT shouldn`t be here", so everything else...?
Roknar wrote: Am I being optimistic or does is the whole csm-sprues-in-the-bin thing a poke at the state of csm and that they are aware of it? Rather than just random sprues.
No, it's because there's plastic Thousand Sons coming in the next Heresy boxed game, and they know that's been leaked all over the shop.
In general discussions we're talking about which armies they will bring back next and I am 100% certain they would bring back Sisters and Kroot. We have our sisters "tease" more like confirmation. Now we need our Kroot tease.
StupidYellow, I was referring to Warhammer TV trolling about Sisters. I'm not trolling anyone, attacking anyone, 'squashing anyone's hope', etc. Just laughing at the joke at the end of the video.
Galef wrote: With all the gold & blue on him, there isn't a question that he is Tzeencth. I am dying to know if this kit is a dual kit that makes a LoC. It would be a wasted opportunity for GW not to do this.
Why? Magnus has never been depicted as a giant Magic Chicken. I think it would be a wasted opportunity to shoehorn both original concepts into a single kit. LoC will arrive next year I'd think if Tzeentch is getting the loving.
JohnnyHell wrote: StupidYellow, I was referring to Warhammer TV trolling about Sisters. I'm not trolling anyone, attacking anyone, 'squashing anyone's hope', etc. Just laughing at the joke at the end of the video.
Humor is not understood on this forum. You need to understand that. People just don't get it here for some reason. I'm not even joking. Being 100% serious unfortunately.
Warp Rider wrote: I struggle to believe they'd joke about plastic Sisters just because the backlash would be severe but they never specified a date
But they did. Something like "this is suppose to be a few months away". So my guess a few would be 6 months or less from now.
Given there new angle of marketing i would be very very surprised if they are actually trolling. They may have tried to pull it off as a troll/joke but I would be fairly confident in saying that Plastic sisters are on the way at some stage in the next 12 months.
Well as a Daemon primarch he can likely be used by several factions and maybe even games set around 30k - after or during Prospero Burns.
As with Genestealer Cults its refreshing to see GW not navel gazing and making just more and more Marines - usually of the same old Chapters.
I would think that they will sell very well - better than say a box of different coloured marines
Did they sell many Nagashm or Glotkin? And thats for a whole range that was dying.
That's why I bring it up, I really think one of the reasons Fantasy was killed is GW invested too much in (very very nice) expensive kits that players would buy one of at best. The flying Vampire throne ghost army thing for example.
A box of (dare I say it?) Battle Sisters or new IG or something might only have the same number of buyers but those buyers would get 5, 10 or 20 of them. The thought process for Maguns would be:
Do I play 40k?
Do I play Chaos marines?
Do I play 1000 Sons?
Do I want this?
Can I afford it?
Will it be effective in a game?
So you might not even get all of the 1k Son players out there.
Now there will be some people whose process is:
Damn this is sweet
I will buy it
I will start a new 1000 Sons army
But will there be enough to make this profitable?
I dunno.
I'd say GW knows what they're doing but Age of Sigmar says (SCREAMS!) otherwise.
What about those who are not neccesarily starting an army, but just buy miniatures for what they see as it's cool factor?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like I'll be starting Thousand Sons to go with my Deathguard and Khorne Demonkin.
I wonder how soon before Emperor's Children appear again.
I initially thought the skin looked very strange in red but the video image shows it to be the much more standard Tzeentch daemon color scheme.
One thought I'm having right now is: It's very possible that the new chaos will no longer be a single CSM codex, but instead will be broken up into seperate legion codicies, the same way space marines are broken into chapters, perhaps each having it's own unique models and of course primarch. That would be unbelievably good
I initially thought the skin looked very strange in red but the video image shows it to be the much more standard Tzeentch daemon color scheme.
........
One thought I'm having right now is: It's very possible that the new chaos will no longer be a single CSM codex, but instead will be broken up into seperate legion codicies, the same way space marines are broken into chapters, perhaps each having it's own unique models and of course primarch. That would be unbelievably good
I am pretty sure Atia hinted at exactly that on her blog earlier today.
I initially thought the skin looked very strange in red but the video image shows it to be the much more standard Tzeentch daemon color scheme.
One thought I'm having right now is: It's very possible that the new chaos will no longer be a single CSM codex, but instead will be broken up into seperate legion codicies, the same way space marines are broken into chapters, perhaps each having it's own unique models and of course primarch. That would be unbelievably good
Um, he is called Magnus the Red because he has red skin, he isn't pink...
Hive City Dweller wrote: One thought I'm having right now is: It's very possible that the new chaos will no longer be a single CSM codex, but instead will be broken up into seperate legion codicies, the same way space marines are broken into chapters, perhaps each having it's own unique models and of course primarch. That would be unbelievably good
They definitely split up forces into god-specific ones in AoS, while also leaving the generic choices in a separate list (and still able to take marks to fit with any of the god-specific forces). 40k isn't AoS, but that isn't the only hint we've had either.
I am super jazzed to see this. I was thinking of a genestealer cult list but this has me. The allure of a demon prince primarch is too strong to ignore. Sign me up.
I was also extremely impressed by GW's reaction. Many political campaigns have struggled to spin a leak like that and GW did it in less than a couple hours and with incredible cheekyness.
I swore off GW for years but in the last month have got back in a big way. All of business decisions in the last 6 months or so make me feel like this is a company I can once again support.
Well done.
Very nice looking. I've gotten rid of my Chaos models (All I have now is the one free from WD) but am glad to see them getting both a new large Lord of War, but Rubric marines. I'm glad to see Tzeentch getting some love instead of Nurgle and Khorne.
I'm now curious what the Lord of Change kit will look like- presumably the wings and feet will be similar to Magnus, and the head(s) will look like the one on Archaon's mount.
It makes sense to release this kit- sales will do well enough, and it is not really different in size or likely price from Nagash, Archaon, or Alarelle.
And maybe we will get lucky and the next daemon primarch will be Fulgrim in snake form to give Slaanesh some love finally.
Kendo wrote: I am super jazzed to see this. I was thinking of a genestealer cult list but this has me. The allure of a demon prince primarch is too strong to ignore. Sign me up.
I was also extremely impressed by GW's reaction. Many political campaigns have struggled to spin a leak like that and GW did it in less than a couple hours and with incredible cheekyness.
I swore off GW for years but in the last month have got back in a big way. All of business decisions in the last 6 months or so make me feel like this is a company I can once again support.
Well done.
I agree. The internet finesse they exhibit is almost startling.
People still dislike the prices, but until GW decides to make less detailed models, you are going to see them remain as the highest ticket models in wargaming. Not that thats a particularly bad thing, as long as you make it easy to get into.
The more GW changes to a friendlier marketing plan, the more they resemble drug dealers.
You give em a taste for cheap, and then when they are hooked, let em run wild.
XD
Gamgee wrote: I find it funny how Genestealer Cults and Deathwatch had way more excitement than this. The model looks good, but I'm just not interested in chaos so this holds no interest to me. It's an ominous sign for chaos. Sort of like getting the black spot put on you.
For me it's more the vague sense of impending dread at the future of the fluff that this model implies. They're actually doing it, they're bringing Primarchs back, and there's no way to do that without A; completely, and I mean fundamentally changing the background material, not just in terms of the events that constitute the "present day" 40K, but in terms of tone and themes, or B; making their return such an anticlimactic squelchy wee wet fart that they might as well not have bothered.
I like 40K, not Horus Heresy 2: Less Talented of the Studios Boogaloo. Mechanicus, GSCult, Harlequins, Deathwatch, apparently now even SoB - these are the sorts of things that made me and a lot of others fall for 40K as a setting in the first place, so the last thing I want now we finally have the chance to play them and mess about with such great models is for GW to turn 40K into Power Rangers or whatever AoS-esque monstrosity results from this move.
EDIT: And for my money, his shouty-scrunchy face makes him look like a DBZ villain
To play devils advocate, Yodhrin, *technically* the daemon primarchs have always been around in 40k.
I do share some of your misgivings about the execution, though bear in mind I'm still a bit 'off' that the veil was pulled back from the Heresy, so I am possibly just a cantankerous old stick-in-the-mud!
On topic model looks ok to me, personally doubt that I'll ever take the plunge but that's more space and chosen armies than the model itself. I do know at least one friend who's "no more new stuff" policy could be facing it's sternest test yet.
Pilum wrote: To play devils advocate, Yodhrin, *technically* the daemon primarchs have always been around in 40k.
I do share some of your misgivings about the execution, though bear in mind I'm still a bit 'off' that the veil was pulled back from the Heresy, so I am possibly just a cantankerous old stick-in-the-mud!
On topic model looks ok to me, personally doubt that I'll ever take the plunge but that's more space and chosen armies than the model itself. I do know at least one friend who's "no more new stuff" policy could be facing it's sternest test yet.
One thought I'm having right now is: It's very possible that the new chaos will no longer be a single CSM codex, but instead will be broken up into seperate legion codicies, the same way space marines are broken into chapters, perhaps each having it's own unique models and of course primarch. That would be unbelievably good
This would be unbelievably good because....?
In 3rd edition I could play 9 legions with a codex half the size of a modern one.
I know, was broken blablabla but regardless the balance (that can be fixed by competent/caring designers) the amount of good pers book decreased. I cannot grasp why GW dilutes armies in many codices (IG/MT, Skitarii/Mech) and we happily clap our hands.
Speaking of the model itself, is not bad but I feel people saying it looks like an action figure. Personally, I am way more impressed by releases like the Genestealers or the Skitarii than by this kind of stuff.
Finally, this remembers me the coming of the Nagash model for WHFB. It could not be the same overdesigned mess, but could herald similar events.
Pilum wrote: To play devils advocate, Yodhrin, *technically* the daemon primarchs have always been around in 40k.
I do share some of your misgivings about the execution, though bear in mind I'm still a bit 'off' that the veil was pulled back from the Heresy, so I am possibly just a cantankerous old stick-in-the-mud!
On topic model looks ok to me, personally doubt that I'll ever take the plunge but that's more space and chosen armies than the model itself. I do know at least one friend who's "no more new stuff" policy could be facing it's sternest test yet.
It's not the Daemon Primarchs specifically that are at issue, it's that them getting models removes the last shred of wilful self-delusion I could muster that Sad Panda, Atia etc were wrong about Loyalist Primarchs returning. The worst they can do by bringing back Magnus is screw up the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons, which is regrettable but hardly setting-ending. The implications of the Loyalists returning though...that's not a 40K I have any interest in. It would shatter the Imperium probably causing another Heresy-esque civil war and a descent into horrible, overwrought, End Times-esque storylines that rob the setting of one of its most defining charactertistics(the sense of impending doom - a sword that's already been shoved through the top of your head isn't a Sword of Damocles any more), or else would require a fundamental tonal shift to a more positive, optimistic view where the Imperium actually has a chance at victory. Plus it would put even more focus on Space Marines generally and the "big four" particularly(or three, rather, assuming they don't have Sanguinor pull a Scooby Do moment and peel off the mask to reveal he was Big Papa Baal all along).
Oh I'm not disagreeing Yodhrin. Just couldn't resist a little nitpicking!
That said - I have chosen to be rather more optimistic, or at least cautiously so. I'll wait and see the execution of it. They could evolve into symbolic figures only, though obviously if there are models they will be out there and they will appear on the table in *cough* "historical re-enactments". I can afford to be blasé here though as my group tends towards the self-policing regarding that sort of thing (ie yes fair enough mate, you brought the big toy for a laugh and caught me out. Well done, just not all the time, eh? And I'll get you back eventually!).
Ineteresting to me, though, is seeing all the old Epic primarchs again is that if they've given Magnus the more 'mainstream' demon look now, if they'll shake Angron's form significantly to provide that differentiation.
I don't know how I am going to afford all this, but it is a wonderful release. I love the Magnus model and the TS's sprue looks equally good. I can see my Thousand sons force becoming apocalyptic in size just to accommodate all these reinforcements.
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated. But similarly the lore has been stuck at 10 minutes to midnight for a decade or more - shoving it forward 9 minutes and 45 seconds to the final cataclysmic conflict, the cadian gate wide open, chaos ascendant and at the very gates of Sol, the Xenos rising across the galaxy.
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated. But similarly the lore has been stuck at 10 minutes to midnight for a decade or more - shoving it forward 9 minutes and 45 seconds to the final cataclysmic conflict, the cadian gate wide open, chaos ascendant and at the very gates of Sol, the Xenos rising across the galaxy.
Good times. very good times ahead!
P.S the Emperor protects!
I fully agree! The codices, the books, even White Dwarf tease about the End Times and how they are here, I can only hope they ARE here and this won't be yet another clock reset like all others: I'm hoping for full blown devastation for an eventual 8th edition, I want to see famous worlds burn and iconic characters dying. With a plastic deamon Primarch I can only hope the lore will actually advance.
We faithful servants of the God-Emperor will be here to hold the tide of Darkness. Kill the Xenos! Burn the Heretic! Purge the Unclean!
Yes. Daemon Magnus means Daemon Lorgar. And Daemon Primarchs are a shot for CSM to take on the big baddies stomping around and dominating 40k these days.
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated. But similarly the lore has been stuck at 10 minutes to midnight for a decade or more - shoving it forward 9 minutes and 45 seconds to the final cataclysmic conflict, the cadian gate wide open, chaos ascendant and at the very gates of Sol, the Xenos rising across the galaxy.
Good times. very good times ahead!
P.S the Emperor protects!
I fail to understand why Tabletop Games must necessarily have a lore moving forward. I want a setting, not a story. If I want a story I pick up a book, and not black library ones, a better written one ("b-but Aaron Dembski-Bowden..!" Ok ok we save him).
Now, expand the setting (say, add Tau), going in depth with lore (say, HH), narrative campaign (say, Armageddon) i can totally understand. But people build armies and spend time on the lore I think is not a good idea revolution it too much, unless is for stuff everybody loathes.
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated. But similarly the lore has been stuck at 10 minutes to midnight for a decade or more - shoving it forward 9 minutes and 45 seconds to the final cataclysmic conflict, the cadian gate wide open, chaos ascendant and at the very gates of Sol, the Xenos rising across the galaxy.
Good times. very good times ahead!
P.S the Emperor protects!
I'd rather not while gradually moving say a black crusade gets written into the fluff, the crusade itself could basically be the new setting where big bads are faced by the common man or Space Marine for example. But as for moving the setting completely well age of sigmar did that and its a total disaster.
I fail to understand why Tabletop Games must necessarily have a lore moving forward. I want a setting, not a story. If I want a story I pick up a book, and not black library ones, a better written one ("b-but Aaron Dembski-Bowden..!" Ok ok we save him).
Now, expand the setting (say, add Tau), going in depth with lore (say, HH), narrative campaign (say, Armageddon) i can totally understand. But people build armies and spend time on the lore I think is not a good idea revolution it too much, unless is for stuff everybody loathes.
What exactly do we love about 40k?
The models? Sure, they are fantastic, but honestly, there are companies making better for less money.
The rules? Well I'm sure someone does. Or the background, the lore, the setting? This is what really makes the game for a lot of people, sure its a miss-mash of original and ripped off concepts, of the cliché, but its unique.
So why progress it?
For my part, I guess I'm in the opposite corner to you, I want a story, an expanding grand narrative in which my games are played, not a static setting where nothing ever actually changes.
I might read a good book a few times, but even the best literally work gets essentially boring after a while - you know the story and how it will end, theres your static setting. A story arc where the ultimate ending is an unknown, much better.
StupidYellow wrote: I'd rather not while gradually moving say a black crusade gets written into the fluff, the crusade itself could basically be the new setting where big bads are faced by the common man or Space Marine for example. But as for moving the setting completely well age of sigmar did that and its a total disaster.
S.Y.
Speaking as a retailer, Age of Sigmar was anything but a total disaster. Its taking time to find its feet, but sales are up significantly.
Speaking as a gamer, I loved the old world lore, but stopped keeping up to date with because as a game it was dieing. Admittedly, while I've played AoS and enjoyed it, I've not read the new lore at all yet.
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated. But similarly the lore has been stuck at 10 minutes to midnight for a decade or more - shoving it forward 9 minutes and 45 seconds to the final cataclysmic conflict, the cadian gate wide open, chaos ascendant and at the very gates of Sol, the Xenos rising across the galaxy.
Good times. very good times ahead!
P.S the Emperor protects!
I fully agree! The codices, the books, even White Dwarf tease about the End Times and how they are here, I can only hope they ARE here and this won't be yet another clock reset like all others: I'm hoping for full blown devastation for an eventual 8th edition, I want to see famous worlds burn and iconic characters dying. With a plastic deamon Primarch I can only hope the lore will actually advance.
We faithful servants of the God-Emperor will be here to hold the tide of Darkness. Kill the Xenos! Burn the Heretic! Purge the Unclean!
don't be sad, kronk...
i have a step-by-step coming soon for that purple/blue fade coming up on my WIP blog, for the Tzeentch Sorcerer i posted last week...
i'll do a tutorial for this guy when he comes out, too looks damn fun to paint!!!
I hope all the Primarchs come back for the final battle even Horus and Sanguinius! And then I hope they kill off the Emperor and then he's reborn and they make a model for him! And then I hope they launch a Great Crusade Part Deux into the Eye of Terror to defeat Chaos once and for all! And then I hope the Emperor fights Khorne and they release a model for Khorne too!
jah-joshua wrote: don't be sad, kronk...
i have a step-by-step coming soon for that purple/blue fade coming up on my WIP blog, for the Tzeentch Sorcerer i posted last week...
i'll do a tutorial for this guy when he comes out, too looks damn fun to paint!!!
Kendo wrote: I am super jazzed to see this. I was thinking of a genestealer cult list but this has me. The allure of a demon prince primarch is too strong to ignore. Sign me up.
I was also extremely impressed by GW's reaction. Many political campaigns have struggled to spin a leak like that and GW did it in less than a couple hours and with incredible cheekyness.
I swore off GW for years but in the last month have got back in a big way. All of business decisions in the last 6 months or so make me feel like this is a company I can once again support.
Well done.
I believe GW released this "leak". As another site noticed the "leak" awfully looks like it was taken on that red recycling bin.
Advancing a setting doesn't turn it into a story. Creating new ongoing conflicts and changing alliances does nothing but create more gaming opportunities for players everywhere.
When did they leave rules wise? They were never in the game. So I am a bit puzzled on how they are bringing them back when they were never in the game in the first place, or did I miss something?
kronk wrote:I will never be able to paint his wings this fabulous.
Oh I am sure you will be do better.
jah-joshua wrote:don't be sad, kronk... i have a step-by-step coming soon for that purple/blue fade coming up on my WIP blog, for the Tzeentch Sorcerer i posted last week... i'll do a tutorial for this guy when he comes out, too looks damn fun to paint!!!
cheers jah
Please PM me with your link when you do so. I would love to see your step by steps.
I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.
That would be a huge mistake. BaC was a hit because it could be any legion even if was a UM vs WB storyline.
Now that I think about it, I bet it's a 40k Chaos release. There's no way that they would have FW put out a 1K Sons upgrade pack (heads, chests etc...) only to have the sales stripped away a few months later, by a huge plastic release offering pretty much exactly the same thing.
I want to see famous worlds burn and iconic characters dying.
Yes but why?
Col. Gravis said it all: I want a story. I want more lore. I don't want a simple "setting": I want the story of said setting to advance and the miniatures to represent that change.
Look at Malifaux: each new book represents an advance, each book brings changes to the setting while introducing new characters.
Using the Tzeentch theme we have in this thread, I want CHANGE.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Advancing a setting doesn't turn it into a story. Creating new ongoing conflicts and changing alliances does nothing but create more gaming opportunities for players everywhere.
Fundamentally I disagree.
story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.
The 40k End Times will tell the story of how we get from the current setting to the next one, no it will not be a single linear story, none the less the combined lore which will be established in any and all 40k End Times book will chart the story arc.
I'd rather not buy and paint armies that become invalidated by advancing storylines, thankyou very much.
Who knows what the implications on models are, I expect there will be some. Its the nature of our hobby though I'm afraid. Obviously it is optional to an extent. I'm still playing my old Praetorian Imperial Guard, not that they're invalid by any means, I know people who still play Squats using counts as, and you can take Warhammer 9th Age as another example of the options open to you.
Like Genestealer Cults this has all been there, fully implemented into the 40k universe, but unlike GSC as part of the EPIC/Space Marine game system and not 28mm 40k. Daemon incursions, Cultist uprisings and Daemon Primarchs leading Chaos Space Marine Legions into battle were established tabletop army concepts back in the early 90s. The first Epic Chaos army list got released in WDs in the late 80s for 1st Ed, then the Renegades supplement introduced Daemon Primarchs with rules for 2nd Ed in 1992 (some were in WD too), and 3rd Ed with its urge for simplification only kept the Daemon Prince rules but removed Daemon Primarchs from the game.
I took a few photos to show how they worked back then - no points costs etc. for obvious reasons.
Daemon Primarch Mortarion got at least some artwork in 3rd - Mark Gibbons, Epic: 40,000 Source Book (1997)
Spoiler:
Like with Baneblade, Stompa, Lord of Skulls, Imperial and Eldar Knights GW are just making use of their advancements in model making tech to bring former Epic units into 28mm 40k.
As an aside, with this new video being "wink and nod" and fun poking. Do you think this may be a start for GW being a bit more open to interacting with their fanbase?
I want to see famous worlds burn and iconic characters dying.
Yes but why?
Col. Gravis said it all: I want a story. I want more lore. I don't want a simple "setting": I want the story of said setting to advance and the miniatures to represent that change.
Look at Malifaux: each new book represents an advance, each book brings changes to the setting while introducing new characters.
Using the Tzeentch theme we have in this thread, I want CHANGE.
In warmachine, older casters are not dismissed when the story advanced. In WHFB, say goobye to Bretonnia.
Furthermore, when one advances the story, must decide at which pace: not everybody can dedicate enough attention to the hobby to follow all the nuances. I found myself at times slowly modelling an army to see it made unfeasible under a new meta/story/whatever. I'd prefer an attitude from GW that rewards the time and attention this hobby needs.
Regardless, change for the sake of change is meaningless. Many "advances" of the fluff of recent addition are plain awful. Asking for quality does not exclusively regards the rules.
I don't understand why bringing an immortal daemon prince into 40K changes the fluff. In fact, it seems to me that bringing in the ascended Primarchs actually makes the fluff more fluffy / true.
They ascended during the HH & then disappeared? That's more odd surely.
Who knows what the implications on models are, I expect there will be some. Its the nature of our hobby though I'm afraid. Obviously it is optional to an extent. I'm still playing my old Praetorian Imperial Guard, not that they're invalid by any means, I know people who still play Squats using counts as, and you can take Warhammer 9th Age as another example of the options open to you.
No offense given, and I wish you the best luck, but I fear this is more the retailer talking, than the gamer
I had mine and other people - friends - efforts frustrated by GW more than one time. I recycled my stuff, other people just quit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bubber wrote: I don't understand why bringing an immortal daemon prince into 40K changes the fluff. In fact, it seems to me that bringing in the ascended Primarchs actually makes the fluff more fluffy / true. They ascended during the HH & then disappeared? That's more odd surely.
I think people (me included) fear more of it as the harbinger of things to come. Like the Nagash model in WHFB.
Furthermore, I did prefer chunks of fluff when they were legends. What we know now about the Dark Angels is almost pornographic and kills all the mistery and ambiguities of the old lore.
Vash108 wrote: As an aside, with this new video being "wink and nod" and fun poking. Do you think this may be a start for GW being a bit more open to interacting with their fanbase?
Its not the first example of a new attitude, its very welcome though, I'd take it exactly as what you suggest.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Advancing a setting doesn't turn it into a story. Creating new ongoing conflicts and changing alliances does nothing but create more gaming opportunities for players everywhere.
Fundamentally I disagree.
story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.
Except we have been told multiple times by the rumormongers that this ISN'T ending the world setting, just moving it along. I understand you may have an army painted with theme and fluff etc. but unless your entire campaign is happening at the very end of the timeline, you are already playing in the history of the game.
Therefore the forward movement of the setting would mean absolutely nothing to you.
If you are playing at that point in the story, then ignore it like people do in the instance above and keep playing.
Kaiyanwang wrote: No offense given, and I wish you the best luck, but I fear this is more the retailer talking, than the gamer
I had mine and other people - friends - efforts frustrated by GW more than one time. I recycled my stuff, other people just quit.
Its a fair shout, and I certainly don't blame you for linking that, though I should add really the business side sprung up as a project to create a local gaming venue, its neither my full time (day) job or paying me a wage - its more an extension of my hobby.
Your certainly not alone in your experience, and I know people who have quit the hobby, or otherwise moved on to other systems because of GW business decisions. I'm not defending those decisions; but to me it just goes with the territory and is something I accept has and will happen again.
Moopy wrote: I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.
That would be a huge mistake. BaC was a hit because it could be any legion even if was a UM vs WB storyline.
Now that I think about it, I bet it's a 40k Chaos release. There's no way that they would have FW put out a 1K Sons upgrade pack (heads, chests etc...) only to have the sales stripped away a few months later, by a huge plastic release offering pretty much exactly the same thing.
The ship is sailed and this has been boohood about and the dead horse been kicked.
IT is Prospero, and it is SPACE WOLVES, CUSTODES, and THOUSAND SONS.
Not generic.
And it will sell huge because they are the two newest to 30k,
The upgrade packs sell just fine, and will continue to sell just fine.
They are experimenting. They got the data from Calth with generic, and now will have data from this release.
People CAN make their whole Legion out of the box or two, but most will then hit up Forge World to flesh out what they have with more units/upgrade kits and also vehicles so it is win win
Playing through 3025- 3060 in the battletech setting was some of the most rewarding gaming I have ever played because of the progression of the story line and death of key characters. The story has since progressed to 3145 and has dramatically reshaped the universe in many kept ways. Going back and playing 3050 has never been an issue for me.
40k has had unpenetrable plot armour for a long time now. I welcome change. Even if we see loyal Primarchs return and the story really get shaken, I don't think we will ever see midnight. I believe there is a great deal of events to deal with before what ever events the Emperor has deemed to be the final act.
That said, I think I could probably survive 'The End'. Something would naturally take its place ala fantasy. Maybe a conclave of returned Primarchs would lead what remained of the Imperium. Maybe a Starchild would be discovered and we could have virtually a new Emperor walking among men.
Yeah. I am ready for change.
Ashiraya wrote: Yes. Daemon Magnus means Daemon Lorgar. And Daemon Primarchs are a shot for CSM to take on the big baddies stomping around and dominating 40k these days.
Well, since Lorgar is not aligned to any Chaos god I don't expect him to pop any time soon. Not before Angron or Mortarion, certainly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kendo wrote: 40k has had unpenetrable plot armour for a long time now.
Not that much. Only the few named characters and SM chapters that have a specific codex have plot armor. The whole point of a setting is that it is not a story, it is a canvas to write your own stories. And 40k is great for that. You can have worlds, even solar systems burn. You can create and develop extremely compelling characters and get them all killed.
Moopy wrote: I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.
That would be a huge mistake. BaC was a hit because it could be any legion even if was a UM vs WB storyline.
Now that I think about it, I bet it's a 40k Chaos release. There's no way that they would have FW put out a 1K Sons upgrade pack (heads, chests etc...) only to have the sales stripped away a few months later, by a huge plastic release offering pretty much exactly the same thing.
The ship is sailed and this has been boohood about and the dead horse been kicked.
IT is Prospero, and it is SPACE WOLVES, CUSTODES, and THOUSAND SONS.
Not generic.
And it will sell huge because they are the two newest to 30k,
The upgrade packs sell just fine, and will continue to sell just fine.
They are experimenting. They got the data from Calth with generic, and now will have data from this release.
People CAN make their whole Legion out of the box or two, but most will then hit up Forge World to flesh out what they have with more units/upgrade kits and also vehicles so it is win win
Calth was ULTRA MARINES and WORD BEARERS yet we got generic Mk 4 armor. No iconography at all.
Trying to PUT THINGS IN CAPS doesn't help your point any.
From what we saw of the November cover when it was leaked, the MKIII Marines and Tartaros Terminators looked generic, so there's little to no need to worry over them not being generic.
Can't say having Primarchs running about the place is especially gonna get me back into buying GW. Sometimes, leaving a bit of unknown is a good thing, but this all seems a bit obvious and common.
So, if 40K is in the end times - which I think isn't the greatest idea - then GW obviously have a plan for the game and going by their previous End Times plan, involves blowing it up and starting again.
Difference is, they can easily just write off a sector, or bring in more uber-good-guys to fight the uber-bad-guys. They can escalate loads or roll it back without doing much more than annihilating a few star systems in the fluff.
Unless they wake the Emperor. No going back from that!
story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.
The 40k End Times will tell the story of how we get from the current setting to the next one, no it will not be a single linear story, none the less the combined lore which will be established in any and all 40k End Times book will chart the story arc.
I don't want to get from the current setting to the next one. I like the current setting. If I wanted a different setting I'd go play a different game.
One of the biggest selling points of the current setting is that it's 2 minutes to midnight. Mankind is doomed. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die then that aspect is ruined. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die and they bring back primarch superheroes who gallantly fight back and turn the tide then EVERYTHING is ruined.
story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.
The 40k End Times will tell the story of how we get from the current setting to the next one, no it will not be a single linear story, none the less the combined lore which will be established in any and all 40k End Times book will chart the story arc.
I don't want to get from the current setting to the next one. I like the current setting. If I wanted a different setting I'd go play a different game.
One of the biggest selling points of the current setting is that it's 2 minutes to midnight. Mankind is doomed. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die then that aspect is ruined. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die and they bring back primarch superheroes who gallantly fight back and turn the tide then EVERYTHING is ruined.
Then you can continue playing the game as if the setting didn't change? Nobodies holding a gun to your head forcing you to go along with the lore advancement. Just like people who still play with the old rule sets, you can still play with the old setting. Some of us think moving the story forward is exciting and cool and provides new settings for our gaming. Some people don't, I completely respect that. I think you're taking it a bit too seriously though.
Um, he is called Magnus the Red because he has red skin, he isn't pink...
He used to be called Magnus the Red because he had red hair, not red skin. I seem to recall his skin being described as coppery, but not sure where I read that. He also had one eye.
I guess they changed all that recently or something. Apparently now he has red skin, no beard, and two eyes. But he didn't originally.
story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.
The 40k End Times will tell the story of how we get from the current setting to the next one, no it will not be a single linear story, none the less the combined lore which will be established in any and all 40k End Times book will chart the story arc.
I don't want to get from the current setting to the next one. I like the current setting. If I wanted a different setting I'd go play a different game.
One of the biggest selling points of the current setting is that it's 2 minutes to midnight. Mankind is doomed. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die then that aspect is ruined. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die and they bring back primarch superheroes who gallantly fight back and turn the tide then EVERYTHING is ruined.
Look, I love the 40k setting. But it's been essentially the same for 20 years, with only some retcons to freshen things up. And it's fine if it's always the same, but what's so bad about moving it forward a smidgeon in over two decades? No one is talking about the destruction of the Traitor Legions and the death of the Chaos Gods. We're talking about things going from "Bad things are about to happen to the galaxy soon(ish)" to "Holy gak bad things are about to happen to the galaxy RIGHT NOW".
Primarchs aren't going to end the setting, they're the heralds of the end. Once they make models for the Emperor, the Chaos Gods, Cegorach, and the Tyranid Hive Mind, I'll be with you that they're destroying the setting. We're getting Heroes and Villains, not Gods and Devils, and that's fine.
Um, he is called Magnus the Red because he has red skin, he isn't pink...
He used to be called Magnus the Red because he had red hair, not red skin. I seem to recall his skin being described as coppery, but not sure where I read that. He also had one eye.
I guess they changed all that recently or something. Apparently now he has red skin, no beard, and two eyes. But he didn't originally.
The fluff from the past few editions has had him with red skin, and two eyes but one was destroyed in the Warp. If it's changed, it hasn't been recently.
Vash108 wrote: As an aside, with this new video being "wink and nod" and fun poking. Do you think this may be a start for GW being a bit more open to interacting with their fanbase?
That's exactly what they've been doing this whole year. I mean, for AoS they even wrote a rule book based on community rules and with direct community input. Then they live streamed an entire tournament, with commentary, going so far as to take questions on stream from users in the chat and giving answers about the possible future of the game. They wrote FAQs based on questions on their FB Group. They are already all in on community interaction, this is just continuing that trend.
When did they leave rules wise? They were never in the game. So I am a bit puzzled on how they are bringing them back when they were never in the game in the first place, or did I miss something?
They were in Epic 40k, but not main 40k. You'll have to go find an old Epic rulebook and/or datasheets on ebay or online. However, the Primarchs are currently in Forge World Horus Heresy, but that's 30k stats. Most of the Primarchs have stats in Horus Heresy. Still waiting to see Magnus, Russ, and a few others.
These:
Spoiler:
are meant for this tiny scaled Epic 40k game of old...
Col.Gravis wrote: 40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated.
Which has nothing to do with the fluff.
So read the rest of my post my good man and address that.
So you want to stiffle player creativy...
Story=player creativy dies
Setting=player creativy blooms
What? Having one does not delete the other. If the Primarchs are fighting the Daemon Primarchs in one sector of the galaxy, that doesn't change the fact that my special snowflake Successor Chapter is in another sector fighting heretics or xenos. It doesn't suddenly make my Necrons campaign to reclaim their former homes somehow non-existent. The setting is still there and is, on the whole, unchanged. Unless your personal story revolves around the main characters of the 40k universe, nothing changes. Maybe your dudes suddenly become wrapped up in fighting the new threat (or, if you're Chaos, are called to follow Magnus through the Eye), but it doesn't make the rest of the universe null and void.
Col.Gravis wrote: 40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated.
Which has nothing to do with the fluff.
So read the rest of my post my good man and address that.
So you want to stiffle player creativy...
Story=player creativy dies Setting=player creativy blooms
What? Having one does not delete the other. If the Primarchs are fighting the Daemon Primarchs in one sector of the galaxy, that doesn't change the fact that my special snowflake Successor Chapter is in another sector fighting heretics or xenos. It doesn't suddenly make my Necrons campaign to reclaim their former homes somehow non-existent. The setting is still there and is, on the whole, unchanged. Unless your personal story revolves around the main characters of the 40k universe, nothing changes. Maybe your dudes suddenly become wrapped up in fighting the new threat (or, if you're Chaos, are called to follow Magnus through the Eye), but it doesn't make the rest of the universe null and void.
Primarchs should be something for an age of myths. We have a "40k historical", is Horus Heresy. Bring back those in current 40k kills all the mythology, uncertainty, contradictions, lore of the 10k years post-heresy. Plus, these huge models contribute to the scaling up of the game.
kronk wrote: I will never be able to paint his wings this fabulous.
You really really will... that is actually quite easy to pull off, no joke. Paint the outermost feathers blue-black, paint the innermost purple/crimson, drybrush turquoise over it all. My main reason for having a sliver of doubt this was legit was that the paint-job was quite basic. I promise you, when pro's get a hold of this it will make you 'cream your jeans' (Baldwin-Trump).
Col.Gravis wrote: 40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated.
Which has nothing to do with the fluff.
So read the rest of my post my good man and address that.
So you want to stiffle player creativy...
Story=player creativy dies
Setting=player creativy blooms
What? Having one does not delete the other. If the Primarchs are fighting the Daemon Primarchs in one sector of the galaxy, that doesn't change the fact that my special snowflake Successor Chapter is in another sector fighting heretics or xenos. It doesn't suddenly make my Necrons campaign to reclaim their former homes somehow non-existent. The setting is still there and is, on the whole, unchanged. Unless your personal story revolves around the main characters of the 40k universe, nothing changes. Maybe your dudes suddenly become wrapped up in fighting the new threat (or, if you're Chaos, are called to follow Magnus through the Eye), but it doesn't make the rest of the universe null and void.
Primarchs should be something for an age of myths. We have a "40k historical", is Horus Heresy. Bring back those kills all the mythology, uncertainty, contradictions, lore of the 10k years post-heresy. Plus, these huge models contribute to the scaling up of the game.
And that's terrible.
I agree on the scaling up. I personally dislike seeing Riptides, Stormsurges, Knights, Wraithknights, and the like on every table. It makes my dudes feel much smaller in comparison.
I don't agree on the first part. Primarchs are myths, sure. But so are most of the other characters in lore - Eldrad is probably on the power level of a Primarch (not in game, but in the lore setting), and has done as much if not more for the lore than any Primarch can claim, having existed and meddled through the Heresy as well as the current setting. The Avatar of Khaine has been in the game forever and (in the lore) is on their level. You should only see one in like a century if not longer. Fateweaver and Skarbrand are freaking mythical, they're considered the most powerful of their respective Daemon types. The Swarmlord darn near killed most of Ultramar by himself and his genetic material is considered one of the strongest and most deadly of all Tyranids in the known galaxy. And even if they're not on the same power level, most of the Tau characters are heroes of lore to that species.
The Primarchs are only considered "lore for the age of myths" because they historically haven't existed in 40k except for background and the one Russ model. They aren't anything more powerful or lore-fueled than things that already exist.
JohnnyHell wrote: Difference is, they can easily just write off a sector, or bring in more uber-good-guys to fight the uber-bad-guys. They can escalate loads or roll it back without doing much more than annihilating a few star systems in the fluff.
Unless they wake the Emperor. No going back from that!
One would have thought that theres no going back from reintroducing the primarchs to the setting, my dear boy.
The charm depends more on the player base around you, rather than what GW is putting out.
i dislike the " scaling up" trend myself, nor do I like the unbalanced codecies, but I have never encountered them in a game, so I can't really complain
I liked the size of armies 4th edition had, so I just choose to player lower point cost games
The Primarchs are only considered "lore for the age of myths" because they historically haven't existed in 40k except for background and the one Russ model. They aren't anything more powerful or lore-fueled than things that already exist.
Too much of the current chapter lore is linked to how reacted to the death or departure of "dad". This is valid even for chaos somehow, since commanders like Arhiman went on their own way, other like Typhus took "executive power" and so on.
This looks cool now but soon we will realise that they are killing the part of flavour that make these ex-legions, loyal or not, special. Primarchs are cumbersome in 40k, the character development of their children is way more important for the setting. Is way more interesting and concerning marines (that are not the only thing in 40k, at least they should not be) shifting the focus back on the big guys will kill character.
Avatars are powerful, so are Greater Daemons, but they are not as much "charged" lore wise. Balance is a thing, but this is more a disaster for the lore standpoint.
We will regret this wish, trust me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: The charm depends more on the player base around you, rather than what GW is putting out. i dislike the " scaling up" trend myself, nor do I like the unbalanced codecies, but I have never encountered them in a game, so I can't really complain
I liked the size of armies 4th edition had, so I just choose to player lower point cost games
I am lucky myself, but you find people putting 2 LOW in a 1000 point game. GW endorses this because we keep buying big kits, in multiple copies.
JohnnyHell wrote: Difference is, they can easily just write off a sector, or bring in more uber-good-guys to fight the uber-bad-guys. They can escalate loads or roll it back without doing much more than annihilating a few star systems in the fluff.
Unless they wake the Emperor. No going back from that!
One would have thought that theres no going back from reintroducing the primarchs to the setting, my dear boy.
JohnnyHell wrote: Difference is, they can easily just write off a sector, or bring in more uber-good-guys to fight the uber-bad-guys. They can escalate loads or roll it back without doing much more than annihilating a few star systems in the fluff.
Unless they wake the Emperor. No going back from that!
One would have thought that theres no going back from reintroducing the primarchs to the setting, my dear boy.
Why? They were never dead. The Daemon Primarchs were written about in pretty much every CSM publication ever and in every BRB lore section as being alive and leading their legions (or in the case of some, sulking while their legions do whatever they want). Just because we haven't seen them on the table doesn't mean they weren't part of the lore. Heck, Magnus already attacked Fenris in another publication and fought Dread-Bjorn. Mortarian appeared in that disgusting Draigo story about the Grey Knights, where he didn't die and we'll leave it at that.
The Loyalist Primarchs aren't necessarily dead either. Guillman and Jonson have always been said to somehow be recovering, Vulkan is... complicated, Khan and Russ are just lost in the warp and not actually dead. The fluff heavily references that they will show up before the end of all things. So I don't see how this changes the story from being minutes to midnight
The Primarchs are only considered "lore for the age of myths" because they historically haven't existed in 40k except for background and the one Russ model. They aren't anything more powerful or lore-fueled than things that already exist.
Too much of the current chapter lore is linked to how reacted to the death or departure of "dad". This is valid even for chaos somehow, since commanders like Arhiman went on their own way, other like Typhus took "executive power" and so on.
This looks cool now but soon we will realise that they are killing the part of flavour that make these ex-legions, loyal or not, special. Primarchs are cumbersome in 40k, the character development of their children is way more important for the setting. Is way more interesting and concerning marines (that are not the only thing in 40k, at least they should not be) shifting the focus back on the big guys will kill character.
Avatars are powerful, so are Greater Daemons, but they are not as much "charged" lore wise. Balance is a thing, but this is more a disaster for the lore standpoint.
We will regret this wish, trust me.
It will shake up the major chapters for sure depending on which ones come back, but some not so much. The Wolves already think Russ is still out there, and the return of the Wulfen strengthened that belief.
Magnus coming back does not change Ahriman's story at all. They're separate groups. Magnus banished Ahriman after the Rubric, so his return to the field of battle literally changes nothing about the current 1ksons storyline.
I am more hyped by the plastic sisters rumoured than making miniatures of Primarchs. Frankly i think it is a waste of direction by GW.
If they want to make awesome centrepiece models, plastic warhound titan, or plastic Thunderhawk would be my choice. Or an eldar Superheavy tank kit. any of whom would outsell magnus by a considerable margin.
Magnus coming back does not change Ahriman's story at all. They're separate groups. Magnus banished Ahriman after the Rubric, so his return to the field of battle literally changes nothing about the current 1ksons storyline.
That said, the bit of artwork that was partially shown in the video looks like it puts Magnus and Ahriman on the same battlefield, which could be all sorts of interesting.
Either way, as someone whose love for the Thousand Sons goes back to the beginning of my 40k involvement (1998), I am very hopeful about the faction marking of "Thousand Sons" on the Magnus box, dearly hope that brings a codex with that same marking, and that there are interesting and varied ways to build an army. I'd LOVE to see the ability to play either Ahriman's Cabal style TS or Magnus-led TS, and would also love to build the minis from that sprue he showed off in both blue and red.
Also can't wait to see if there are some interesting, TS specific psyker powers and objectives.
And the amount of F5ing that will be happening on preorder day, from me, if there's a collector's edition codex will mean adding a new keyboard for my computer to my purchases on that day.
I fail to understand why Tabletop Games must necessarily have a lore moving forward. I want a setting, not a story. If I want a story I pick up a book, and not black library ones, a better written one ("b-but Aaron Dembski-Bowden..!" Ok ok we save him).
Now, expand the setting (say, add Tau), going in depth with lore (say, HH), narrative campaign (say, Armageddon) i can totally understand. But people build armies and spend time on the lore I think is not a good idea revolution it too much, unless is for stuff everybody loathes.
What exactly do we love about 40k?
The models? Sure, they are fantastic, but honestly, there are companies making better for less money.
The rules? Well I'm sure someone does. Or the background, the lore, the setting? This is what really makes the game for a lot of people, sure its a miss-mash of original and ripped off concepts, of the cliché, but its unique.
So why progress it?
For my part, I guess I'm in the opposite corner to you, I want a story, an expanding grand narrative in which my games are played, not a static setting where nothing ever actually changes.
I might read a good book a few times, but even the best literally work gets essentially boring after a while - you know the story and how it will end, theres your static setting. A story arc where the ultimate ending is an unknown, much better.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
EDIT:
Warhams-77 wrote: 40k End Times is nothing new and doesnt mean they are invalidating armies or will do an Age of Roguemar
16+ years old, Inquis Exterminatus Artbook (Black Library, 2000) (Photo by me)
Where in that blurb are the Loyalist Primarchs returning? Again - it's only a Sword of Damocles while it's still hanging above your head, once it drops the tension is gone and the tone of the fiction fundamentally changes. There simply isn't any way to have the Loyalists return in a meaningful way without altering the Imperium and thus the setting as a whole beyond recognition. It can't be done, these are demigods, figures from myth for 99.999% of the Imperial populace, the implications of even one coming back are immense, and we're apparently getting several(rumoured by the same people who told us the Daemon Primarchs were coming, hence where this whole discussion started - this release means the other rumoures can no longer be ignored or wished away) - several angry demigods who will command the loyalty of hundreds of thousands of Space Marines and at least some of whom should be utterly disgusted by the state of the Imperium. Conflict between some of them and the Imperium as it stands and between themselves is completely inevitable if they're going to do justice to the fluff that already exists on them.
An Imperium united in superstition, stagnation and decline, its best days behind it, beset on all sides by alien menaces and haunted by daemons from the beyond and the shadows of the betrayal they inspired in ancient times, engaged in a futile attempt to stem the tide that mercilessly grinds down what little remains of their humanity as the clock ticks relentlessly towards midnight. That is40K, that tone, that flavour, and it cannot survive the reintroduction of the Loyalists because doing so necessarily changes so much of the certanties that underpin it. We're not just talking about shifting the clock forward a wee touch here, the return of the Loyalists is literally supposed to herald the apocalypse, and even their existence will alter the Imperium beyond all recognition - or at least it should, because if it doesn't, if the return of the Loyalist Primarchs isn't as big a deal as previous fluff has stated and their inevitable impact on all the existing fluff would imply, why bother with them at all?
I suppose that's why I just don't get people who want the story to advance. Either the advancement is meaningful and significant enough that it significantly changes the setting, which would surely be a bad thing if you like 40K for what it is; or it's just an anaemic deckchair-shuffling exercise where nothing really changes, in which case what was the point?
Primarchs have shown up in 40k rules before. I believe that back in 5th edition they released rules for a Daemon Angron in White Dwarf. . He could take a bodyguard of up to 8 Blood Thirsters.
Why? They were never dead. The Daemon Primarchs were written about in pretty much every CSM publication ever and in every BRB lore section as being alive and leading their legions (or in the case of some, sulking while their legions do whatever they want). Just because we haven't seen them on the table doesn't mean they weren't part of the lore. Heck, Magnus already attacked Fenris in another publication and fought Dread-Bjorn. Mortarian appeared in that disgusting Draigo story about the Grey Knights, where he didn't die and we'll leave it at that.
Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat, a presence that we are just told about by Gollum, or by the action of his minions, or statements of Gandalf, and so on. We never have a chapter with him in his tower giving orders, shouting, casting evil spells, plotting evil plans, doing evil things, cooking evil lasagnas. Is looming in the background, never described but still pervasive.
That makes him effective. Is the same thing that makes effective the primarchs in 40k. We do not need to see Guilliman we see his legacy. In Ultramar, in the Smurfs, and whatnot.
An actual, physical Guilliman is less powerful as a character. And refocuses the "camera" in 40k on the wrong things, and on a scale I wish we would run away from.
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated. But similarly the lore has been stuck at 10 minutes to midnight for a decade or more - shoving it forward 9 minutes and 45 seconds to the final cataclysmic conflict, the cadian gate wide open, chaos ascendant and at the very gates of Sol, the Xenos rising across the galaxy.
Good times. very good times ahead!
P.S the Emperor protects!
I fully agree! The codices, the books, even White Dwarf tease about the End Times and how they are here, I can only hope they ARE here and this won't be yet another clock reset like all others: I'm hoping for full blown devastation for an eventual 8th edition, I want to see famous worlds burn and iconic characters dying. With a plastic deamon Primarch I can only hope the lore will actually advance.
We faithful servants of the God-Emperor will be here to hold the tide of Darkness. Kill the Xenos! Burn the Heretic! Purge the Unclean!
You're mixing gameplay with fluff. Don't mix them.
Yodhrin wrote: An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players
This. That's something I dislike in Warmachine: yeah, Gunnbjorn is cool, but I have no say in how his story develop and who he will recruit in his army and all. PP decides all for me, and don't give me the option to make “my” character. I want to be able to do that in 40k, have my Canoness that does what I want her to do, interacting with the setting the way I find cool.
cuda1179 wrote: Primarchs have shown up in 40k rules before. I believe that back in 5th edition they released rules for a Daemon Angron in White Dwarf. . He could take a bodyguard of up to 8 Blood Thirsters.
Angron was banished in the Warp by GKs. Think about it, he led a chaos armageddon campaign, was in the recent history, but then he had to go. Fast.
Older writers knew this.
The current Magnus is too much. In everything, not only in its action-figure design. Is pornographic.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.
If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?
Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?
Moopy wrote: I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.
It's not. The HH Marines in the game will be generic (except for the two characters).
But they come from the same CAD portfolio. Take, say, the computer models of generic 30K Tartaros Pattern Terminators, add 40K bling, change poses, switch a few weapons -> 40K Rubric Terminators. Saves time and effort and costs.
Same for the Tzeentch models. It was a massive design portfolio that included everything from Tzaangors to LoC and Magnus. They may not be the same sprue, but include lots of computer "bitz" and design elements from a large, newly created Tzeentch-design-elements-library.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.
If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?
Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?
I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".
Furthermore, yes, seeing a whole galaxy of a setting just sketched because we have to move forward the plot of the usual suspects into more grimderp is quite irritating.
No wait is not irritating is infuriating.
Moopy wrote: I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.
It's not. The HH Marines in the game will be generic (except for the two characters).
But they come from the same CAD portfolio. Take, say, the computer models of generic 30K Tartaros Pattern Terminators, add 40K bling, change poses, switch a few weapons -> 40K Rubric Terminators. Saves time and effort and costs.
Same for the Tzeentch models. It was a massive design portfolio that included everything from Tzaangors to LoC and Magnus. They may not be the same sprue, but include lots of computer "bitz" and design elements from a large, newly created Tzeentch-design-elements-library.
Moopy wrote: I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.
It's not. The HH Marines in the game will be generic (except for the two characters).
But they come from the same CAD portfolio. Take, say, the computer models of generic 30K Tartaros Pattern Terminators, add 40K bling, change poses, switch a few weapons -> 40K Rubric Terminators. Saves time and effort and costs.
Same for the Tzeentch models. It was a massive design portfolio that included everything from Tzaangors to LoC and Magnus. They may not be the same sprue, but include lots of computer "bitz" and design elements from a large, newly created Tzeentch-design-elements-library.
(Similar approach for Khorne, Stormcast, etc..).
Any CAD relationship between the rumoured Sisters of Silence models and the rumoured Sisters of Battle models?
Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat
Sauron and the other major players all have models in the LOTR game.
Gandalf and the other wizards are minor gods, as are quite a few other characters - it depends on how the game is focussed.
The complaining is hilarious. I have been playing 40k since 93 ever since 3rd hit and rebooted the rules there was a window of ~5 years where people would have, to quote MT11, creamed there jeans for the releases we have been getting in the past two years. Thats including demon primarchs and loyal primarchs. It's kind of sadly ironic that it's mostly that same crowd complaining now that it finally has come. It comes off as bitter and too little too late mentality.
The fluff is so hammy and old fellas, it won't kill the old fluff to add new fluff. It will just mean there is more. I get that having 10-15 years of your own imagined stories and ponderings makes you a much harder critic about anything they will do, but at least be fething self aware of that fact.
Every new player I know is excited, that should tell you all you need to know.
I want to see the Lion and the Wolf reunite against The Red Giant personally, that would make for an amazing campaign.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This is insane. What is being destroyed here? Fanfiction? If so, only the fanfiction that takes place on established worlds that are already central to the storyline? What do you think is going to be "casually overwritten"? Or are you just complaining for the sake of complaining?
Do you complain when they release campaign supplements? Because Damnos, Valedor, Shield of Baal, Kauyon, Mont'ka, and Fenris all changed the story of the setting in their respective areas. To say nothing of the fact that each and every Forge World Imperial Armor does the same thing. Are they bad for 40k as well?
Again - Nothing about this will change the setting. Unless your special snowflake character has a story where he went and killed Magnus. Which would be stupid.
Kaiyanwang wrote: Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat, a presence that we are just told about by Gollum, or by the action of his minions, or statements of Gandalf, and so on. We never have a chapter with him in his tower giving orders, shouting, casting evil spells, plotting evil plans, doing evil things, cooking evil lasagnas. Is looming in the background, never described but still pervasive.
That makes him effective. Is the same thing that makes effective the primarchs in 40k. We do not need to see Guilliman we see his legacy. In Ultramar, in the Smurfs, and whatnot.
An actual, physical Guilliman is less powerful as a character. And refocuses the "camera" in 40k on the wrong things, and on a scale I wish we would run away from.
@Yodhrin you are the best.
Ok, it changes the specific case in which the major chapters react to the Primarch coming back, but if you're playing a major Space Marine chapter, you're already at the whims of any changes they make. It changes very little about your personal successor chapter unless you make it so. It doesn't destroy the setting, and actually changes nothing for armies that aren't Space Marines. In fact, we don't even know how it will affect those chapters. The Primarchs can show up and leave the existing Chapter Masters in place, going to lead the charge elsewhere. Guillman waking up and taking a handful of Marines to some warzone would change very little about Calgar and Macragge.
The Primarchs were never all powerful beings that have the impact of Sauron (that would be the Chaos Gods and the Emperor). They're Aragorn. We've just been seeing the story from the standpoint of a Gondor guard up until this point, hearing about some ranger who would be king. His showing up changed nothing about their day-to-day lives and how they fought on the battlefield except who was leading them.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.
If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?
Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?
I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".
Furthermore, yes, seeing a whole galaxy of a setting just sketched because we have to move forward the plot of the usual suspects into more grimderp is quite irritating.
No wait is not irritating is infuriating.
As usual and I understand it to an extent but still, a lot of people are getting annoyed at what they think may happen rather than what we know will happen.
Posters getting annoyed as fluff they've created may get invalidated...without seeing what GW are going to do or put out. I'm no major GW fanboy so I'm not blindly defending them but I'm also willing to approach this with an open mind. For all we know they're going to set all the Primarch stuff inside the Eye of Terror or something. I doubt they'd do that but it's possible.
Let's just see what happens - evolution rather than revolution isn't always a bad thing. They can add more sand into the sandbox without obscuring the castles people have spent time building
Red Corsair wrote: The complaining is hilarious. I have been playing 40k since 93 ever since 3rd hit and rebooted the rules there was a window of ~5 years where people would have, to quote MT11, creamed there jeans for the releases we have been getting in the past two years. Thats including demon primarchs and loyal primarchs. It's kind of sadly ironic that it's mostly that same crowd complaining now that it finally has come. It comes off as bitter and too little too late mentality.
The fluff is so hammy and old fellas, it won't kill the old fluff to add new fluff. It will just mean there is more. I get that having 10-15 years of your own imagined stories and ponderings makes you a much harder critic about anything they will do, but at least be fething self aware of that fact.
Every new player I know is excited, that should tell you all you need to know.
I want to see the Lion and the Wolf reunite against The Red Giant personally, that would make for an amazing campaign.
Wait... have I wondered back to the early AoS discussion days? Because this sure sounds like it.
ITT: I don't want to see the Lion and the Wolf reunite against The Red Giant personally, because that would not make for an amazing campaign.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This is insane. What is being destroyed here? Fanfiction? If so, only the fanfiction that takes place on established worlds that are already central to the storyline? What do you think is going to be "casually overwritten"? Or are you just complaining for the sake of complaining?
Do you complain when they release campaign supplements? Because Damnos, Valedor, Shield of Baal, Kauyon, Mont'ka, and Fenris all changed the story of the setting in their respective areas. To say nothing of the fact that each and every Forge World Imperial Armor does the same thing. Are they bad for 40k as well?
Again - Nothing about this will change the setting. Unless your special snowflake character has a story where he went and killed Magnus. Which would be stupid.
Kaiyanwang wrote: Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat, a presence that we are just told about by Gollum, or by the action of his minions, or statements of Gandalf, and so on. We never have a chapter with him in his tower giving orders, shouting, casting evil spells, plotting evil plans, doing evil things, cooking evil lasagnas. Is looming in the background, never described but still pervasive.
That makes him effective. Is the same thing that makes effective the primarchs in 40k. We do not need to see Guilliman we see his legacy. In Ultramar, in the Smurfs, and whatnot.
An actual, physical Guilliman is less powerful as a character. And refocuses the "camera" in 40k on the wrong things, and on a scale I wish we would run away from.
@Yodhrin you are the best.
Ok, it changes the specific case in which the major chapters react to the Primarch coming back, but if you're playing a major Space Marine chapter, you're already at the whims of any changes they make. It changes very little about your personal successor chapter unless you make it so. It doesn't destroy the setting, and actually changes nothing for armies that aren't Space Marines. In fact, we don't even know how it will affect those chapters. The Primarchs can show up and leave the existing Chapter Masters in place, going to lead the charge elsewhere. Guillman waking up and taking a handful of Marines to some warzone would change very little about Calgar and Macragge.
The Primarchs were never all powerful beings that have the impact of Sauron (that would be the Chaos Gods and the Emperor). They're Aragorn. We've just been seeing the story from the standpoint of a Gondor guard up until this point, hearing about some ranger who would be king. His showing up changed nothing about their day-to-day lives and how they fought on the battlefield except who was leading them.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.
If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?
Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?
I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".
Furthermore, yes, seeing a whole galaxy of a setting just sketched because we have to move forward the plot of the usual suspects into more grimderp is quite irritating.
No wait is not irritating is infuriating.
Mr Morden wrote: Sauron and the other major players all have models in the LOTR game.
Gandalf and the other wizards are minor gods, as are quite a few other characters - it depends on how the game is focussed.
Talking about the book. The fact that GW has a game is coincidental - and even in this case, you explained: the power level and scope is different. Not by chance, a match Gandalf + Aragorn vs Sauron looks odd for a lore-monkey.
This is valid for the movie as well. Jackson wanted a confrontation Aragorn vs Sauron at the Morannon, but luckily people talked him out of that mess and we had a CGI Troll of Gorgoroth beating the crap out of the heir of Isildur instead.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This is insane. What is being destroyed here? Fanfiction? If so, only the fanfiction that takes place on established worlds that are already central to the storyline? What do you think is going to be "casually overwritten"? Or are you just complaining for the sake of complaining?
Do you complain when they release campaign supplements? Because Damnos, Valedor, Shield of Baal, Kauyon, Mont'ka, and Fenris all changed the story of the setting in their respective areas. To say nothing of the fact that each and every Forge World Imperial Armor does the same thing. Are they bad for 40k as well?
Again - Nothing about this will change the setting. Unless your special snowflake character has a story where he went and killed Magnus. Which would be stupid.
Kaiyanwang wrote: Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat, a presence that we are just told about by Gollum, or by the action of his minions, or statements of Gandalf, and so on. We never have a chapter with him in his tower giving orders, shouting, casting evil spells, plotting evil plans, doing evil things, cooking evil lasagnas. Is looming in the background, never described but still pervasive.
That makes him effective. Is the same thing that makes effective the primarchs in 40k. We do not need to see Guilliman we see his legacy. In Ultramar, in the Smurfs, and whatnot.
An actual, physical Guilliman is less powerful as a character. And refocuses the "camera" in 40k on the wrong things, and on a scale I wish we would run away from.
@Yodhrin you are the best.
Ok, it changes the specific case in which the major chapters react to the Primarch coming back, but if you're playing a major Space Marine chapter, you're already at the whims of any changes they make. It changes very little about your personal successor chapter unless you make it so. It doesn't destroy the setting, and actually changes nothing for armies that aren't Space Marines. In fact, we don't even know how it will affect those chapters. The Primarchs can show up and leave the existing Chapter Masters in place, going to lead the charge elsewhere. Guillman waking up and taking a handful of Marines to some warzone would change very little about Calgar and Macragge.
The Primarchs were never all powerful beings that have the impact of Sauron (that would be the Chaos Gods and the Emperor). They're Aragorn. We've just been seeing the story from the standpoint of a Gondor guard up until this point, hearing about some ranger who would be king. His showing up changed nothing about their day-to-day lives and how they fought on the battlefield except who was leading them.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.
If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?
Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?
I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".
Furthermore, yes, seeing a whole galaxy of a setting just sketched because we have to move forward the plot of the usual suspects into more grimderp is quite irritating.
No wait is not irritating is infuriating.
Give a real example of what is now "gone".
Squats. Moving on...
First - Squats are still in the lore and nothing is preventing you from fielding them as Guard or tiny Space Marines (I've seen a full army of them as just that). Additionally, GW of a decade ago is not the GW right now. The GW right now is making all sorts of good decisions and introducing things instead of removing them.
Second - I was asking what of someone's "personal story" is now gone. Give me one specific example about how the inclusion of Primarchs will suddenly invalidate your personal fluff/fanfiction.
Ok, it changes the specific case in which the major chapters react to the Primarch coming back, but if you're playing a major Space Marine chapter, you're already at the whims of any changes they make. It changes very little about your personal successor chapter unless you make it so. It doesn't destroy the setting, and actually changes nothing for armies that aren't Space Marines. In fact, we don't even know how it will affect those chapters. The Primarchs can show up and leave the existing Chapter Masters in place, going to lead the charge elsewhere. Guillman waking up and taking a handful of Marines to some warzone would change very little about Calgar and Macragge.
The Primarchs were never all powerful beings that have the impact of Sauron (that would be the Chaos Gods and the Emperor). They're Aragorn. We've just been seeing the story from the standpoint of a Gondor guard up until this point, hearing about some ranger who would be king. His showing up changed nothing about their day-to-day lives and how they fought on the battlefield except who was leading them.
The fact the Aragorn shows up is one of the elements that lead to the destruction of the ring and the fourth age. This is literally an "own goal".
In 4th age, middle earth was "rebooted". Sounds familiar?
Give a real example of what is now "gone".
Lost and the damned in 3rd, eye of terror. How long it took before FW "fixed" that (and is still actually another army).
I remember magnus having skin described as copperish with his red plume of hair.
I think that kind of copper, as it has red tones in it. Would work a lot better with the red hair and allow you to tone the tzeentchian blues in a little bit easier.
Thankfully it's a bare plastic model so we can all paint it how we imagine him.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.
If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?
Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?
Because I don't care about telling that story, I was already telling the story I wanted to tell.
If I want to watch Star Trek, I watch Star Trek. If I want to watch Star Wars, I watch Star Wars. If I want to watch The Expanse, I watch The Expanse. I like them each because of what they are, and if I find myself tiring of one and wanting something different I don't start hoping they'll fundamentally change the one I happen to be watching at the time, I move on and watch something else.
If I ever feel myself getting tired with the status quo in 40K, I went and played WHFB, or BFG, or Necromunda, or Mordheim, or Starship Troopers, or I took a break from tabletop for a while and played some videogames. I honestly don't think it occurred to me even once to hope that GW radically changed the setting at the expense of everyone who still enjoyed it as-was to assuage my own transient boredom.
He's pretty fething red here, but Artistic Licence and all, right?
Also, what glorious fething hair! Is it natural? Only is stylist knows for sure. And he's not talking...cause he's a fething walking tin can filled with dust.
Spoiler:
Edit: Also, they built that "perch" following the completion of the Ullanor Crusade, when the Emperor gathered a host of his legions, gave a ra-ra speech, and told them he's fething off to Terra for a bit.
In the HH novels, it states that they Mechanicum leveled an entire continent for their troops to march down to the presentation area or whatever.
If all that gak was brand new, why does the above picture show the "palace" or whatever was all cracked and worn and gak? They just fething made it. Why is it so weathered?
Odd.
Also, Angron is gripping the stone so hard he's breaking it. Never noticed that before.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This is insane. What is being destroyed here? Fanfiction? If so, only the fanfiction that takes place on established worlds that are already central to the storyline? What do you think is going to be "casually overwritten"? Or are you just complaining for the sake of complaining?
Do you complain when they release campaign supplements? Because Damnos, Valedor, Shield of Baal, Kauyon, Mont'ka, and Fenris all changed the story of the setting in their respective areas. To say nothing of the fact that each and every Forge World Imperial Armor does the same thing. Are they bad for 40k as well?
Again - Nothing about this will change the setting. Unless your special snowflake character has a story where he went and killed Magnus. Which would be stupid.
Kaiyanwang wrote: Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat, a presence that we are just told about by Gollum, or by the action of his minions, or statements of Gandalf, and so on. We never have a chapter with him in his tower giving orders, shouting, casting evil spells, plotting evil plans, doing evil things, cooking evil lasagnas. Is looming in the background, never described but still pervasive.
That makes him effective. Is the same thing that makes effective the primarchs in 40k. We do not need to see Guilliman we see his legacy. In Ultramar, in the Smurfs, and whatnot.
An actual, physical Guilliman is less powerful as a character. And refocuses the "camera" in 40k on the wrong things, and on a scale I wish we would run away from.
@Yodhrin you are the best.
Ok, it changes the specific case in which the major chapters react to the Primarch coming back, but if you're playing a major Space Marine chapter, you're already at the whims of any changes they make. It changes very little about your personal successor chapter unless you make it so. It doesn't destroy the setting, and actually changes nothing for armies that aren't Space Marines. In fact, we don't even know how it will affect those chapters. The Primarchs can show up and leave the existing Chapter Masters in place, going to lead the charge elsewhere. Guillman waking up and taking a handful of Marines to some warzone would change very little about Calgar and Macragge.
The Primarchs were never all powerful beings that have the impact of Sauron (that would be the Chaos Gods and the Emperor). They're Aragorn. We've just been seeing the story from the standpoint of a Gondor guard up until this point, hearing about some ranger who would be king. His showing up changed nothing about their day-to-day lives and how they fought on the battlefield except who was leading them.
Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.
They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.
This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.
If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?
Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?
I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".
Furthermore, yes, seeing a whole galaxy of a setting just sketched because we have to move forward the plot of the usual suspects into more grimderp is quite irritating.
No wait is not irritating is infuriating.
Give a real example of what is now "gone".
Squats. Moving on...
First - Squats are still in the lore and nothing is preventing you from fielding them as Guard or tiny Space Marines (I've seen a full army of them as just that). Additionally, GW of a decade ago is not the GW right now. The GW right now is making all sorts of good decisions and introducing things instead of removing them.
Second - I was asking what of someone's "personal story" is now gone. Give me one specific example about how the inclusion of Primarchs will suddenly invalidate your personal fluff/fanfiction.
A minor mention in the 6th Edition Rulebook barely brings them back to what they were. Also, justifying that you can still use squats while playing other armies rules doesn't help - but that's ok, they're still in the lore.
Again, it's not that they are getting rules, it's what it means - imagine if they decide that oops! Fenris just got blown to bits by Magnus! Or if the existence of Fallen is revealed to the Imperium, for example? Can you see the issues here, how it would impact the players?
First - Squats are still in the lore and nothing is preventing you from fielding them as Guard or tiny Space Marines (I've seen a full army of them as just that). Additionally, GW of a decade ago is not the GW right now. The GW right now is making all sorts of good decisions and introducing things instead of removing them.
Lost and the damned in 3rd, eye of terror. How long it took before FW "fixed" that (and is still actually another army).
That's not what the complaining is about. If you don't like the direction of the story, nothing can be done for your. The story does not belong to the community, and currently I believe you are in the minority regarding the direction.
If you're worried about entire armies getting "squatted", don't be. They've been reintroducing armies at a rapid rate. Nothing is getting removed.
The complaining I'm talking about is this:
I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".
the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.
What specifically is getting wiped out? What of your personal setting is gone? Please give an example instead of whining.
A minor mention in the 6th Edition Rulebook barely brings them back to what they were. Also, justifying that you can still use squats while playing other armies rules doesn't help - but that's ok, they're still in the lore.
Again, it's not that they are getting rules, it's what it means - imagine if they decide that oops! Fenris just got blown to bits by Magnus! Or if the existence of Fallen is revealed to the Imperium, for example? Can you see the issues here, how it would impact the players?
First - if you really think they're going to blow up Fenris you're nuts. Accusing them of doing something they won't do doesn't help your position.
Second, how will that affect the players? Unless your entire story takes place on Fenris and the impossible happens, it doesn't matter. Even if it does, you can continue your story in the moments before it happens. It does not affect the players in any meaningful way.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Here's one for you. Is Magnus going to be a 1 version kit, or will he be a multi purpose kit, and the lord of change will be the same kit.
I personally think magnus will be a unique kit, as his entire body is too muscular and humanoid and primarchy to be in an LOC kit, and that will take up most of the sprues in the kit.
More likely we see a kit that makes 2 or 3 variants of LOC, that also shares a sprue with an eventual kairos fateweaver release, similar to what they did with the bloodthirsters and skarbrand.
The more unique magnus is the more they can soak chaos players for multiple different kits, also.
First - Squats are still in the lore and nothing is preventing you from fielding them as Guard or tiny Space Marines (I've seen a full army of them as just that). Additionally, GW of a decade ago is not the GW right now. The GW right now is making all sorts of good decisions and introducing things instead of removing them.
This is disingenuous, at best.
Oh, they haven't reintroduced Skitarii, Cult Mechanicus, Khorne Daemonkin, Genestealer Cults, and Deathwatch? They haven't made 30k plastics? They aren't bringing back specialist games? They haven't joined and utilized social media? They haven't done FAQs at the behest of the community? They haven't worked with community leaders to introduce points to AoS?
90%+ of the decisions being made in the past year are good ones. You're either ignoring them and focusing on the bad or are just whining for the sake of whining.
No army is going to get squatted. They just put in two new ones (three if you count Renegade Knights, more in the past year and a half) and have heavily insinuated that Sisters are getting updated in their last video. If you think a plastic Magnus means they're going to destroy exisiting armies, you're insane.
First - if you really think they're going to blow up Fenris you're nuts. Accusing them of doing something they won't do doesn't help your position.
Learn to read, please. I'm not accusing them of doing it. I'm givign you examples.
Also, if you asked the players 5 or so years ago about the possibility of the Loyalist Primarchs returning for 40k, they'd reply "if you really think they're going to bring back Russ and the rest, you're nuts."
See where I'm headed here? Just because it's not plausible right now doesn't mean they won't do it later anyway. Related to this... how's the WHFB Old World lately? Ashes you mean? Wait you mean they destroyed it?? An entire setting??
Requizen wrote: Second, how will that affect the players? Unless your entire story takes place on Fenris and the impossible happens, it doesn't matter. Even if it does, you can continue your story in the moments before it happens. It does not affect the players in any meaningful way.
You DO know that there are several players that craft their chapter's entire history around such details, right? RIGHT? Or are you simply ignoring it? Please tell me you don't truly believe the existence of the Fallen coming out to the Imperium wouldn't shake the foundation of the Unforgiven and affect ALL Unforgiven Chapters.
First - Squats are still in the lore and nothing is preventing you from fielding them as Guard or tiny Space Marines (I've seen a full army of them as just that). Additionally, GW of a decade ago is not the GW right now. The GW right now is making all sorts of good decisions and introducing things instead of removing them.
This is disingenuous, at best.
Oh, they haven't reintroduced Skitarii, Cult Mechanicus, Khorne Daemonkin, Genestealer Cults, and Deathwatch? They haven't made 30k plastics? They aren't bringing back specialist games? They haven't joined and utilized social media? They haven't done FAQs at the behest of the community? They haven't worked with community leaders to introduce points to AoS?
90%+ of the decisions being made in the past year are good ones. You're either ignoring them and focusing on the bad or are just whining for the sake of whining.
No army is going to get squatted. They just put in two new ones (three if you count Renegade Knights, more in the past year and a half) and have heavily insinuated that Sisters are getting updated in their last video. If you think a plastic Magnus means they're going to destroy exisiting armies, you're insane.
I like how you insult people if they disagree with you. Very funny little thing...
Mr Morden wrote: Sauron and the other major players all have models in the LOTR game.
Gandalf and the other wizards are minor gods, as are quite a few other characters - it depends on how the game is focussed.
Talking about the book. The fact that GW has a game is coincidental - and even in this case, you explained: the power level and scope is different. Not by chance, a match Gandalf + Aragorn vs Sauron looks odd for a lore-monkey.
This is valid for the movie as well. Jackson wanted a confrontation Aragorn vs Sauron at the Morannon, but luckily people talked him out of that mess and we had a CGI Troll of Gorgoroth beating the crap out of the heir of Isildur instead.
Isildur and Elrond versus Sauron is a thing in the books, film and game.
Gladriel kicking Saurons ass is one of the best things in the Hobbit film.
Eowyn versus the Ringwraith Lord
LOTR is all about epic confrontations between either legndary characters or one ofthem and mere human hero's - the Similiarian is the same. its not just about a bunch of hobbits
Mr Morden wrote: Sauron and the other major players all have models in the LOTR game.
Gandalf and the other wizards are minor gods, as are quite a few other characters - it depends on how the game is focussed.
Talking about the book. The fact that GW has a game is coincidental - and even in this case, you explained: the power level and scope is different. Not by chance, a match Gandalf + Aragorn vs Sauron looks odd for a lore-monkey.
This is valid for the movie as well. Jackson wanted a confrontation Aragorn vs Sauron at the Morannon, but luckily people talked him out of that mess and we had a CGI Troll of Gorgoroth beating the crap out of the heir of Isildur instead.
Isildur and Elrond versus Sauron is a thing in the books, film and game.
Gladriel kicking Saurons ass is one of the best things in the Hobbit film.
Eowyn versus the Ringwraith Lord
LOTR is all about epic confrontations between either legndary characters or one ofthem and mere human hero's - the Similiarian is the same. its not just about a bunch of hobbits
Off topic, I know, but wasn't the curbstomp Elendil and Isildur and Elrond and Gil-Galad vs Sauron?
See where I'm headed here? Just because it's not plausible right now doesn't mean they won't do it later anyway. Related to this... how's the WHFB Old World lately? Ashes you mean? Wait you mean they destroyed it?? An entire setting??
And there was a massive gakstorm to the point that the wake of the event caused (at least in part) an entire restructuring of the company. Nothing insinuates they're going to do the same thing to 40k. Every reliable rumor source is saying it won't happen. Saying "but what if!" doesn't make your claims of doomsaying seem reasonable. Just the opposite, in fact.
Requizen wrote: Second, how will that affect the players? Unless your entire story takes place on Fenris and the impossible happens, it doesn't matter. Even if it does, you can continue your story in the moments before it happens. It does not affect the players in any meaningful way.
You DO know that there are several players that craft their chapter's entire history around such details, right? RIGHT? Or are you simply ignoring it? Please tell me you don't truly believe the existence of the Fallen coming out to the Imperium wouldn't shake the foundation of the Unforgiven and affect ALL Unforgiven Chapters.
And? That doesn't change your army, just moves it forward.
If suddenly the Fallen became known, it wouldn't suddenly make Dark Angels into a Traitor legion. It wouldn't make your dudes impossible to play. All it would take is for your story to add "and this is how our chapter dealt with the revelation". Anyone who put in the time to write this background fluff to their story will have no problems finding time to add a few more lines to it.
I like how you insult people if they disagree with you. Very funny little thing...
And I dislike how people take their random fearmongering and baseless claims and think they can wave it around like it's truth.
You know the more I see this model the more I like it. I guess that's the changer of ways for you. If I ever was to start a chaos faction it would be Tzeentch and now Thousands Sons... if it weren't for me starting DW just recently and having some DE waiting for their cool formations update I could very well be tempted. Then again with a real possibility of Kroot happening in the future or a new xenos I have to keep on guard.
I'll tackle this, since you're being a bit dense about it.
Say you play Dark Angels. And now they bring back Lion El'Johnson. Except surprise, the Watchers in the Dark weren't guarding him, they were guarding *against* him. He's corrupted by chaos. He's a traitor. Most of the Dark Angels and their successors fall in line with him, a crazy civil war is fought. Azrael and a minority of Dark Angels live on as scattered rag-tag rebels while The Lion quests to become a Daemon Prince.
What a great story, right? What a cool twist that plays on the themes of the Dark Angels while giving you two new factions to play that aren't like the old Dark Angels at all - the New Fallen and the Survivors or whatever.
Except it's not just a story, it's a new setting now. The story you wanted is a few campaign books. The new setting is the result of it, because this is what you asked for - shaking things up. And the 8th edition Dark Angels codex will reflect this. Tons of space will be dedicated to fleshing out the new reality, while a bone will be thrown to grognards in the form of a few paragraphs describing what the Dark Angels used to be like.
Sure, you can keep your old fashioned Dark Angels army with its outdated organization and color scheme and you can play things out in 999M41as long as you like, because you know the old fluff and have old sources and you can approximate things with the 8th edition rules.
But your army is dead as you know it. New players will not understand the theme or tone or history of your army, because it isnt written about in new material. And all because some people couldn't comprehend how to enjoy the game unless something galaxy-shaking huge and crazy happened to some named characters in a campaign book.
"They wouldn't do something that nuts!" you might say. But then again, look at AoS. It's totally possible. And if they don't do something nuts, have they actually advanced the story like you want? If things aren't different, what is the point? By definition you want the setting to change. Fortunately I think GW is smarter than that. They know the setting is the cash-cow. They won't disrupt it.
Say you play Dark Angels. And now they bring back Lion El'Johnson. Except surprise, the Watchers in the Dark weren't guarding him, they were guarding *against* him. He's corrupted by chaos. He's a traitor. Most of the Dark Angels and their successors fall in line with him, a crazy civil war is fought. Azrael and a minority of Dark Angels live on as scattered rag-tag rebels while The Lion quests to become a Daemon Prince.
What a great story, right? What a cool twist that plays on the themes of the Dark Angels while giving you two new factions to play that aren't like the old Dark Angels at all - the New Fallen and the Survivors or whatever.
Except it's not just a story, it's a new setting now. The story you wanted is a few campaign books. The new setting is the result of it, because this is what you asked for - shaking things up. And the 8th edition Dark Angels codex will reflect this. Tons of space will be dedicated to fleshing out the new reality, while a bone will be thrown to grognards in the form of a few paragraphs describing what the Dark Angels used to be like.
Sure, you can keep your old fashioned Dark Angels army with its outdated organization and color scheme and you can play things out in 999M41as long as you like, because you know the old fluff and have old sources and you can approximate things with the 8th edition rules.
But your army is dead as you know it. New players will not understand the theme or tone or history of your army, because it isnt written about in new material. And all because some people couldn't comprehend how to enjoy the game unless something galaxy-shaking huge and crazy happened to some named characters in a campaign book.
Overall I still disagree with your side of the argument, but this was a really good way of putting it. Really helped me understand your perspective. Respectfully disagree, but exalted.
You know it is not end times right? That was just a convenient fan label coopted from the previous big lore upheaval. Reliable rumor mongers who predicted all of this have told us to calm down as it is not going to be a complete reset of the fluff.
So simmer down please your getting mad at nothing.
Edit
Ah there is allegedly one traitor primarch though which I think is a good thing. There is also allegedly one chaos primarch who will turn out to be good. If what I'm remembering turns out to be true.
Say you play Dark Angels. And now they bring back Lion El'Johnson. Except surprise, the Watchers in the Dark weren't guarding him, they were guarding *against* him. He's corrupted by chaos. He's a traitor. Most of the Dark Angels and their successors fall in line with him, a crazy civil war is fought. Azrael and a minority of Dark Angels live on as scattered rag-tag rebels while The Lion quests to become a Daemon Prince.
What a great story, right? What a cool twist that plays on the themes of the Dark Angels while giving you two new factions to play that aren't like the old Dark Angels at all - the New Fallen and the Survivors or whatever.
Except it's not just a story, it's a new setting now. The story you wanted is a few campaign books. The new setting is the result of it, because this is what you asked for - shaking things up. And the 8th edition Dark Angels codex will reflect this. Tons of space will be dedicated to fleshing out the new reality, while a bone will be thrown to grognards in the form of a few paragraphs describing what the Dark Angels used to be like.
Sure, you can keep your old fashioned Dark Angels army with its outdated organization and color scheme and you can play things out in 999M41as long as you like, because you know the old fluff and have old sources and you can approximate things with the 8th edition rules.
But your army is dead as you know it. New players will not understand the theme or tone or history of your army, because it isnt written about in new material. And all because some people couldn't comprehend how to enjoy the game unless something galaxy-shaking huge and crazy happened to some named characters in a campaign book.
Why is the army dead? You seem to just be saying "this happened and now it's dead" with no reasoning as to why. But what realistically could they change that would invalidate your whole army or make it inconsistent?
Make it so all loyalist DAs are now Traitors? They wouldn't do that because it's too big of a difference.
Change the army's color scheme, forcing you to repaint? Again, they wouldn't do that because it's been established forever now. If you're a successor chapter, it doesn't even matter to you.
Remove Ravenwing and Deathwing? See #1. Wouldn't happen, it's too iconic.
The issue I'm having with this thread is that people are taking off the wall, completely ridiculous leaps. We've gone from "new primarch model" to "GW will change the very foundations of the game to the point that no current army will exist and we all have to start from scratch". Can you rationalize that? Can you really, truly, actually rationalize that leap of logic?
Isildur and Elrond versus Sauron is a thing in the books, film and game.
Gladriel kicking Saurons ass is one of the best things in the Hobbit film.
Eowyn versus the Ringwraith Lord
LOTR is all about epic confrontations between either legndary characters or one ofthem and mere human hero's - the Similiarian is the same. its not just about a bunch of hobbits
Let's see...
Isildur and Elrond (and Elendil and Gil-galad, they did most of the hard lifting!) is Horus Heresy.
Gladriel kicking Saurons ass is [THAT MOVIE DOES NOT EXIST][EXPUNGED FROM ARCHIVES]. Let's say is fanfiction. Should not count. But let's take it seriously: In the books in unclear and is in an appendix. So is more like the Armageddon campaign and Angron fading on the background.
Eowyn versus the Ringwraith Lord is Calgar vs Typhus.
. Feet and legs are fine 
