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I hope all the Primarchs come back for the final battle even Horus and Sanguinius! And then I hope they kill off the Emperor and then he's reborn and they make a model for him! And then I hope they launch a Great Crusade Part Deux into the Eye of Terror to defeat Chaos once and for all! And then I hope the Emperor fights Khorne and they release a model for Khorne too!

Wait, no I dont.

 jah-joshua wrote:
don't be sad, kronk...
i have a step-by-step coming soon for that purple/blue fade coming up on my WIP blog, for the Tzeentch Sorcerer i posted last week...
i'll do a tutorial for this guy when he comes out, too
looks damn fun to paint!!!

cheers
jah

Huzzah!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Col.Gravis wrote:
So read the rest of my post my good man and address that.

I disagree with the rest of your post. I figured that was obvious, as was my core point: You can fix the game without ruining the fluff.

Well why didn't you just say that rather then making a snide comment? Anyway, moving along!

Yes, you can fix the game without changing the lore, I don't dispute that.

But the studio is going one better and progressing the story as well.

Two birds, one stone as they say.

Kendo wrote:
I am super jazzed to see this. I was thinking of a genestealer cult list but this has me. The allure of a demon prince primarch is too strong to ignore. Sign me up.
I was also extremely impressed by GW's reaction. Many political campaigns have struggled to spin a leak like that and GW did it in less than a couple hours and with incredible cheekyness.
I swore off GW for years but in the last month have got back in a big way. All of business decisions in the last 6 months or so make me feel like this is a company I can once again support.
Well done.

I believe GW released this "leak". As another site noticed the "leak" awfully looks like it was taken on that red recycling bin.

Advancing a setting doesn't turn it into a story. Creating new ongoing conflicts and changing alliances does nothing but create more gaming opportunities for players everywhere.

. They're actually doing it, they're bringing Primarchs back,

When did they leave rules wise? They were never in the game. So I am a bit puzzled on how they are bringing them back when they were never in the game in the first place, or did I miss something?

kronk wrote:I will never be able to paint his wings this fabulous.

Oh I am sure you will be do better.

jah-joshua wrote:don't be sad, kronk...
i have a step-by-step coming soon for that purple/blue fade coming up on my WIP blog, for the Tzeentch Sorcerer i posted last week...
i'll do a tutorial for this guy when he comes out, too
looks damn fun to paint!!!

cheers
jah

Please PM me with your link when you do so. I would love to see your step by steps.

I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.

That would be a huge mistake. BaC was a hit because it could be any legion even if was a UM vs WB storyline.

Now that I think about it, I bet it's a 40k Chaos release. There's no way that they would have FW put out a 1K Sons upgrade pack (heads, chests etc...) only to have the sales stripped away a few months later, by a huge plastic release offering pretty much exactly the same thing.

 Col.Gravis wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Col.Gravis wrote:
So read the rest of my post my good man and address that.

I disagree with the rest of your post. I figured that was obvious, as was my core point: You can fix the game without ruining the fluff.

Well why didn't you just say that rather then making a snide comment? Anyway, moving along!

Yes, you can fix the game without changing the lore, I don't dispute that.

But the studio is going one better and progressing the story as well.

Two birds, one stone as they say.

I'd rather not buy and paint armies that become invalidated by advancing storylines, thankyou very much.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

I want to see famous worlds burn and iconic characters dying.

Yes but why?

Col. Gravis said it all: I want a story. I want more lore. I don't want a simple "setting": I want the story of said setting to advance and the miniatures to represent that change.

Look at Malifaux: each new book represents an advance, each book brings changes to the setting while introducing new characters.

Using the Tzeentch theme we have in this thread, I want CHANGE.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Advancing a setting doesn't turn it into a story. Creating new ongoing conflicts and changing alliances does nothing but create more gaming opportunities for players everywhere.

Fundamentally I disagree.

story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.

The 40k End Times will tell the story of how we get from the current setting to the next one, no it will not be a single linear story, none the less the combined lore which will be established in any and all 40k End Times book will chart the story arc.

Joyboozer wrote:

I'd rather not buy and paint armies that become invalidated by advancing storylines, thankyou very much.

Who knows what the implications on models are, I expect there will be some. Its the nature of our hobby though I'm afraid. Obviously it is optional to an extent. I'm still playing my old Praetorian Imperial Guard, not that they're invalid by any means, I know people who still play Squats using counts as, and you can take Warhammer 9th Age as another example of the options open to you.

Like Genestealer Cults this has all been there, fully implemented into the 40k universe, but unlike GSC as part of the EPIC/Space Marine game system and not 28mm 40k. Daemon incursions, Cultist uprisings and Daemon Primarchs leading Chaos Space Marine Legions into battle were established tabletop army concepts back in the early 90s. The first Epic Chaos army list got released in WDs in the late 80s for 1st Ed, then the Renegades supplement introduced Daemon Primarchs with rules for 2nd Ed in 1992 (some were in WD too), and 3rd Ed with its urge for simplification only kept the Daemon Prince rules but removed Daemon Primarchs from the game.

I took a few photos to show how they worked back then - no points costs etc. for obvious reasons.


Renegades Eldar & Chaos supplement (1992)




Daemon Primarch Mortarion got at least some artwork in 3rd - Mark Gibbons, Epic: 40,000 Source Book (1997)



Like with Baneblade, Stompa, Lord of Skulls, Imperial and Eldar Knights GW are just making use of their advancements in model making tech to bring former Epic units into 28mm 40k.

As an aside, with this new video being "wink and nod" and fun poking. Do you think this may be a start for GW being a bit more open to interacting with their fanbase?

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

I want to see famous worlds burn and iconic characters dying.

Yes but why?

Col. Gravis said it all: I want a story. I want more lore. I don't want a simple "setting": I want the story of said setting to advance and the miniatures to represent that change.

Look at Malifaux: each new book represents an advance, each book brings changes to the setting while introducing new characters.

Using the Tzeentch theme we have in this thread, I want CHANGE.

In warmachine, older casters are not dismissed when the story advanced. In WHFB, say goobye to Bretonnia.

Furthermore, when one advances the story, must decide at which pace: not everybody can dedicate enough attention to the hobby to follow all the nuances.
I found myself at times slowly modelling an army to see it made unfeasible under a new meta/story/whatever.
I'd prefer an attitude from GW that rewards the time and attention this hobby needs.

Regardless, change for the sake of change is meaningless. Many "advances" of the fluff of recent addition are plain awful. Asking for quality does not exclusively regards the rules.

I don't understand why bringing an immortal daemon prince into 40K changes the fluff. In fact, it seems to me that bringing in the ascended Primarchs actually makes the fluff more fluffy / true.
They ascended during the HH & then disappeared? That's more odd surely.

 Col.Gravis wrote:

Who knows what the implications on models are, I expect there will be some. Its the nature of our hobby though I'm afraid. Obviously it is optional to an extent. I'm still playing my old Praetorian Imperial Guard, not that they're invalid by any means, I know people who still play Squats using counts as, and you can take Warhammer 9th Age as another example of the options open to you.

No offense given, and I wish you the best luck, but I fear this is more the retailer talking, than the gamer

I had mine and other people - friends - efforts frustrated by GW more than one time. I recycled my stuff, other people just quit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bubber wrote:
I don't understand why bringing an immortal daemon prince into 40K changes the fluff. In fact, it seems to me that bringing in the ascended Primarchs actually makes the fluff more fluffy / true.
They ascended during the HH & then disappeared? That's more odd surely.

I think people (me included) fear more of it as the harbinger of things to come. Like the Nagash model in WHFB.

Furthermore, I did prefer chunks of fluff when they were legends. What we know now about the Dark Angels is almost pornographic and kills all the mistery and ambiguities of the old lore.

 Vash108 wrote:
As an aside, with this new video being "wink and nod" and fun poking. Do you think this may be a start for GW being a bit more open to interacting with their fanbase?

Its not the first example of a new attitude, its very welcome though, I'd take it exactly as what you suggest.

40k End Times is nothing new and doesnt mean they are invalidating armies or will do an Age of Roguemar



16+ years old, Inquis Exterminatus Artbook (Black Library, 2000) (Photo by me)

 Col.Gravis wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Advancing a setting doesn't turn it into a story. Creating new ongoing conflicts and changing alliances does nothing but create more gaming opportunities for players everywhere.

Fundamentally I disagree.

story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.

Except we have been told multiple times by the rumormongers that this ISN'T ending the world setting, just moving it along. I understand you may have an army painted with theme and fluff etc. but unless your entire campaign is happening at the very end of the timeline, you are already playing in the history of the game.

Therefore the forward movement of the setting would mean absolutely nothing to you.

If you are playing at that point in the story, then ignore it like people do in the instance above and keep playing.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
No offense given, and I wish you the best luck, but I fear this is more the retailer talking, than the gamer

I had mine and other people - friends - efforts frustrated by GW more than one time. I recycled my stuff, other people just quit.

Its a fair shout, and I certainly don't blame you for linking that, though I should add really the business side sprung up as a project to create a local gaming venue, its neither my full time (day) job or paying me a wage - its more an extension of my hobby.

Your certainly not alone in your experience, and I know people who have quit the hobby, or otherwise moved on to other systems because of GW business decisions. I'm not defending those decisions; but to me it just goes with the territory and is something I accept has and will happen again.

 Moopy wrote:
I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.

That would be a huge mistake. BaC was a hit because it could be any legion even if was a UM vs WB storyline.

Now that I think about it, I bet it's a 40k Chaos release. There's no way that they would have FW put out a 1K Sons upgrade pack (heads, chests etc...) only to have the sales stripped away a few months later, by a huge plastic release offering pretty much exactly the same thing.

The ship is sailed and this has been boohood about and the dead horse been kicked.

IT is Prospero, and it is SPACE WOLVES, CUSTODES, and THOUSAND SONS.
Not generic.
And it will sell huge because they are the two newest to 30k,
The upgrade packs sell just fine, and will continue to sell just fine.
They are experimenting. They got the data from Calth with generic, and now will have data from this release.
People CAN make their whole Legion out of the box or two, but most will then hit up Forge World to flesh out what they have with more units/upgrade kits and also vehicles so it is win win

Playing through 3025- 3060 in the battletech setting was some of the most rewarding gaming I have ever played because of the progression of the story line and death of key characters. The story has since progressed to 3145 and has dramatically reshaped the universe in many kept ways. Going back and playing 3050 has never been an issue for me.
40k has had unpenetrable plot armour for a long time now. I welcome change. Even if we see loyal Primarchs return and the story really get shaken, I don't think we will ever see midnight. I believe there is a great deal of events to deal with before what ever events the Emperor has deemed to be the final act.
That said, I think I could probably survive 'The End'. Something would naturally take its place ala fantasy. Maybe a conclave of returned Primarchs would lead what remained of the Imperium. Maybe a Starchild would be discovered and we could have virtually a new Emperor walking among men.
Yeah. I am ready for change.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes. Daemon Magnus means Daemon Lorgar. And Daemon Primarchs are a shot for CSM to take on the big baddies stomping around and dominating 40k these days.

Well, since Lorgar is not aligned to any Chaos god I don't expect him to pop any time soon. Not before Angron or Mortarion, certainly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kendo wrote:
40k has had unpenetrable plot armour for a long time now.

Not that much. Only the few named characters and SM chapters that have a specific codex have plot armor. The whole point of a setting is that it is not a story, it is a canvas to write your own stories. And 40k is great for that. You can have worlds, even solar systems burn. You can create and develop extremely compelling characters and get them all killed.

 BloodGrin wrote:

 Moopy wrote:
I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.

That would be a huge mistake. BaC was a hit because it could be any legion even if was a UM vs WB storyline.

Now that I think about it, I bet it's a 40k Chaos release. There's no way that they would have FW put out a 1K Sons upgrade pack (heads, chests etc...) only to have the sales stripped away a few months later, by a huge plastic release offering pretty much exactly the same thing.

The ship is sailed and this has been boohood about and the dead horse been kicked.

IT is Prospero, and it is SPACE WOLVES, CUSTODES, and THOUSAND SONS.
Not generic.
And it will sell huge because they are the two newest to 30k,
The upgrade packs sell just fine, and will continue to sell just fine.
They are experimenting. They got the data from Calth with generic, and now will have data from this release.
People CAN make their whole Legion out of the box or two, but most will then hit up Forge World to flesh out what they have with more units/upgrade kits and also vehicles so it is win win

Calth was ULTRA MARINES and WORD BEARERS yet we got generic Mk 4 armor. No iconography at all.

Trying to PUT THINGS IN CAPS doesn't help your point any.

From what we saw of the November cover when it was leaked, the MKIII Marines and Tartaros Terminators looked generic, so there's little to no need to worry over them not being generic.

Can't say having Primarchs running about the place is especially gonna get me back into buying GW. Sometimes, leaving a bit of unknown is a good thing, but this all seems a bit obvious and common.

So, if 40K is in the end times - which I think isn't the greatest idea - then GW obviously have a plan for the game and going by their previous End Times plan, involves blowing it up and starting again.

This pic should give you an idea of Magnus's size. I fear his price will be close to archaon. Edit rescaled based on 100mm base

Difference is, they can easily just write off a sector, or bring in more uber-good-guys to fight the uber-bad-guys. They can escalate loads or roll it back without doing much more than annihilating a few star systems in the fluff.

Unless they wake the Emperor. No going back from that!

Chikout wrote:
This pic should give you an idea of Magnus's size. I fear his price will be close to archaon.

Not even close...

 MajorTom11 wrote:


Um, he is called Magnus the Red because he has red skin, he isn't pink...

 Col.Gravis wrote:

Fundamentally I disagree.

story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.

The 40k End Times will tell the story of how we get from the current setting to the next one, no it will not be a single linear story, none the less the combined lore which will be established in any and all 40k End Times book will chart the story arc.

I don't want to get from the current setting to the next one. I like the current setting. If I wanted a different setting I'd go play a different game.

One of the biggest selling points of the current setting is that it's 2 minutes to midnight. Mankind is doomed. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die then that aspect is ruined. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die and they bring back primarch superheroes who gallantly fight back and turn the tide then EVERYTHING is ruined.