I don't have any issues with the Sisters of Battle. I think they're pretty cool... And I also like alliteration.
But why aren't their female space marines? I mean, I get that the whole process of becoming a marine could easily always result in a masculine form, but are no marines drawn from the female population?
I can tell this thread is going to be full of productivity and level headed conversations.
ScarletRose wrote: Because being written in the 80s only men could be cool space action movie types?
Of course there's always the lost legions for people who really want something different.
Pretty much, but im very against changing things for changes sake, we are getting sisters which im totally fine with, but i just dont wanna see a female space marine for a few reasons
1) because it has always been writen that only men are Astarte, and i really dislike the idea of change for changes sake to lore. With out lore or preservation of lore, we dont really have anything.
2) Even if they work females space marines in, its going to end up getting so ham fisted into the setting that its going to be cringe worthy material.
3) Also, you would never be able to tell they are female unless you add boobs to the model, which at that point you get down to a weird paradox argument about wanting female models, but the only way to show they are female is by putting boobs on the armor, then you say well thats just objectification if you put boobs on, but then you have no way of telling they are female ect ect ect, it gets into a really nasty argument really fast.
Either way,
Sisters-YAY!
Female space marines- Nay
The future state for this thread- Ugh.
Abandon all hope ye who post beyond this one, for only death and torture shall await you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: I don't have any issues with the Sisters of Battle. I think they're pretty cool... And I also like alliteration.
But why aren't their female space marines? I mean, I get that the whole process of becoming a marine could easily always result in a masculine form, but are no marines drawn from the female population?
The lore answer is the process for space marines was designed around the male body, and physique. The emperor based his primarchs off of him, a male, who based the space marines off the primarchs also men.
In all the books it even goes on about how brutal and trying the process is and few survive.
My personal head canon for the reasoning is to prevent space marines from breeding. If you have a female and male space marine, and by the will of the Chaos gods, they become fertile, and produce space marine children, whats to stop the space marnies from realizing they dont need the rest of humanity, because they can create perfect humans naturally. Not having female space marines is there to prevent that from happening, its to insure that the space marines are there to protect and forge a path for humanity, not usurp it. That my head cannon to it at least.
3) Also, you would never be able to tell they are female unless you add boobs to the model, which at that point you get down to a weird paradox argument about wanting female models, but the only way to show they are female is by putting boobs on the armor, then you say well thats just objectification if you put boobs on, but then you have no way of telling they are female ect ect ect, it gets into a really nasty argument really fast.
I hate to confess my heresy (at least without pics yet) but I've found Statuesque Miniatures' female heads fit nicely with marine bodies. I also use a pin and a small green stuff spacer to raise their torso off the legs slightly, making them taller with a slightly more defined waist.
My personal head canon for the reasoning is to prevent space marines from breeding. If you have a female and male space marine, and by the will of the Chaos gods, they become fertile, and produce space marine children, whats to stop the space marnies from realizing they dont need the rest of humanity, because they can create perfect humans naturally. Not having female space marines is there to prevent that from happening, its to insure that the space marines are there to protect and forge a path for humanity, not usurp it.
To me this makes the most sense. Emps made it clear at the outset the Crusade and everything he did was about humanity and make humans the best species possible. So he'd be very wary of any course of action that could result in baseline humans being usurped by his own creations.
It's a conceit of the setting, Space Marines are all male. The in-universe explanation for this is some pseudo-science mumbo jumbo about the process being matched only to the male gene-type... but, of course, this was written before we knew as much about the human genome as we do now.
The Emperor is male. Using his genetics he created the Primarchs.
Who were male because they were made from male genetic material.
He then took the genetics of the Primarchs and made the Space Marines.
Who are male because they were made from male genetic material.
Also about Space Marine children, because of the nature of the process of becoming an Astartes (Implanting everything into a mortal), would they not produce mortal offspring if they were fertile? Last I checked sex cells weren't touched by the Astartes physiology.
Does it matter? Can't we just leave it as it is? Basic genetics show that men are stronger in general , so therefore the emperor and primarchs would want the strongest and fastest stock available ala your alpha males .
And before someone plays the the chauvinistic card I am only talking physical characteristics not mental or anything else and welcome female models in 40k. Plus are they not all monks which again are traditionally male.
HA!! This thread again.. OP..do a search on "female spacemarines" to have all your questions answered ad nauseum...and answers to some questions you never thought to ask.
Only in the eye of terror this would be possible! Heresy for contemplating this, stay where you are a purification squad has been directed to you to burn out these heretical thoughts!
Maybe the Dark Gods of Dakka should create a seperate forum category for this question. I've only been on here a few months and I've already seen it over a dozen times.
Here's my justification: The gene-seed process is not well known. Apothecaries are poking around with 10,000 year old genes created by the emperor trying to make them work, its quite possible that there are some on this website who know more about it than they do. Add the fact that innovation is heresy to this mix, and the example of the 21st founding for when poeple try and tamper with gene-seed.
To top it off, remember that astartes usually recruit from death worlds, and they have a success rate of 1/100. Why would you add a secondary group (females) to our primary group, when most of the females would be weaker than the males (cold biology). We're talking running though another what 1,000 of more women to get a single space marine? That is a criminal waste of the emperors currency.
To finish, there are reasons why female SM's don't work. They may be crap, outdated, and possibly a little sexist, but they are there. I don't ever see people giving reasons why having female SM's would help (In a fluff perspective).
Mudrat wrote: I don't ever see people giving reasons why having female SM's would help (In a fluff perspective).
From a fluff perspective the only thing a candidate really needs to become a marine is compatibility with the geneseed. If he wasn't the strongest or toughest on his world the process will make him that. If he wasn't smart or quickthinking the process will take care of that too.
Ofc, if everyone still had the knowledge to screen candidates for compatibility they could pick what they need without killing off half the 12-year old boys on the planet. So in a dark future where Chapters recruit based on unnecessary tests and rituals having access to the second half of the population would be a massive advantage.
Agiel wrote: Geez, you can't go to a single 40K lore-related board without a topic like this being on the front page, can you?
Space marines aren't actualy genetically modified as that would be considered mutilation of the holy human form. They are chimeras, meaning that they are implanted with extra organs and given all kinds of chemicals to accept them, but if a marine was to have children(if that is even possible, GW never realy touched upon the matter), his children would be just regular humans.
JNAProductions wrote: Are there any? And I mean actual Space Marines, not just the Bolter B****es Sisters of Battle.
This topic has been exhaustively discussed over the years, usually with nasty digressions into the politics of gender. According to the fluff since basically forever, the process of creating space marines will only work with male candidates, and the lore has only male space marines, in both 30k and 40k.
Obviously, it's a big galaxy, and stranger things have happened, but I should warn you that "female space marines" have become a bit of a running joke in the community.
I've always imagined it has something to do with chromosomes.
Which could mean that is referred to as the "gene seed" in the fluff, in part refers to a tailored Y-chromosome, which then somehow replaces original Y-chromosomes carried by the Marines. Having received the chapter Y-chromosome, the Space Marine becomes the son of the primarch in a very real sense of the word (and grandsons of the Emperor).
This would explain why you can't have women Space Marines, because they can't carry a Y-chromosome. Or maybe the process would turn anyone into men! So then it doesn't matter which sex you started out with!
Zingraff wrote: I've always imagined it has something to do with chromosomes.
Which could mean that is referred to as the "gene seed" in the fluff, in part refers to a tailored Y-chromosome, which then somehow replaces original Y-chromosomes carried by the Marines. Having received the chapter Y-chromosome, the Space Marine becomes the son of the primarch in a very real sense of the word (and grandsons of the Emperor).
This would explain why you can't have women Space Marines, because they can't carry a Y-chromosome. Or maybe the process would turn anyone into men! So then it doesn't matter which sex you started out with!
This is the explanation I like the most. It just seems a bit silly to me that you would ditch half the potential candidates to be Space Marines. But if the process makes a uniformly male form, that makes sense.
Zingraff wrote: I've always imagined it has something to do with chromosomes.
Which could mean that is referred to as the "gene seed" in the fluff, in part refers to a tailored Y-chromosome, which then somehow replaces original Y-chromosomes carried by the Marines. Having received the chapter Y-chromosome, the Space Marine becomes the son of the primarch in a very real sense of the word (and grandsons of the Emperor).
This would explain why you can't have women Space Marines, because they can't carry a Y-chromosome. Or maybe the process would turn anyone into men! So then it doesn't matter which sex you started out with!
I think this is by far the best answer. Gene-seed requires Y-chromosome. Done
Generally speaking, no. The process of creating a space marine requires certain growth hormones to all ready be present in the human subject. And the muscle growth is accelerated, not created from nothing. If the body isn't all ready built like a brick house, the muscle growth either halts or if the frame isn't strong enough, rips the person apart. And the process turns you sterile and all together -not- human to begin with so...not really sure you'd be male or female any way.
Last but not least...you wouldn't be able to tell. Armor isn't meant to show off the gender of the person. It's meant to protect you. Which means, no space marines with booby power armor.
With all that said...it's your 40K. Do with it what you will.
Zingraff wrote: I've always imagined it has something to do with chromosomes.
Which could mean that is referred to as the "gene seed" in the fluff, in part refers to a tailored Y-chromosome, [snip] So then it doesn't matter which sex you started out with!
This is my fav headcanon on the subject.
Further, it is because the emperor was misogynist and/or homosexual, so he wanted a boys only-club for his bestestest buddies to be all macho and brotherhoody. So he intentionally designed the geneseeds to make sure all Astartes grew up to be Super Manly Men (tm). Because honestly, look at the (admittedly rather few) official illustrations of marines without their armor. Tom of Finland could have done that character design!
I do like that line of reasoning. Always wondered why a super-powerful human who claimed to be obsessed with humanity as a whole seemed to interact with few females and have few females amongs his known or visible inner circle or command structure.
The genetics would require an actual trained biologist, chemical expert and genetic engineer to discuss meaningfully and depends on conceits of the setting which can just as easily be washed either way considering anything in 40k can if need be have an explanation simply in 'sufficiently advanced technology' or 'psyker mumbo-jumbo' so I'll not actually comment on them.
I don't get the argument of 'but you wouldn't be able to tell' at all though. I mean...is that even an argument against not having female space marines or is it just a pointless blank statement?
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
Besides you'd presumably have the special characters and leaders come with helmet-less options, like now, so that's how you'd indicate female ones if it was important to you too 'know the difference' (although I still don't see why it is, playing Tau or Eldar are perfectly fine even though you don't necessarily know which one's are male or female all the time).
I now have a hilarious image of a Craftworld Eldar player freaking out and dropping the army after reading their are 'male' Banshees but he doesn't know how to tell which ones of his miniatures are or are not males.
That one argument doesn't make sense to me. Personally, as a girl, I really dislike boobplate (unless its to show off on purpose like a Dark Eldar would) and wish Sisters came without boobplates but proper armour chestplates.
Is it just me ot should any thread containing the words "female" "space" and "marine" being used consecutively should just be locked becuase they all end in the same way.
All Astartes are genetic clones of their Primarch who are genetic clones of the Emperor. A female Spacd Marine cannot exist (and should not exist if you ask me).
Edit: this is on top of the fact that the process in which to create an Astartes is basically Voodoo magic at the current point in the fluff.
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
You know, the more this subject gets talked about (or I talk about it), the more I understand why we nerds/geeks were best left out of the mainstream.
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
The fluff states:
1: Astartes are genetic clones of the Emperor, who was a man
2: Making Space Marines is almost magic
3: The science used to make new gene seeds, as in not from the original Legions, is lost.
4: Tampering with the Emperor's holy design is heresy
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
The fluff states:
1: Astartes are genetic clones of the Emperor, who was a man
2: Making Space Marines is almost magic
3: The science used to make new gene seeds, as in not from the original Legions, is lost.
4: Tampering with the Emperor's holy design is heresy
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
You know, the more this subject gets talked about (or I talk about it), the more I understand why we nerds/geeks were best left out of the mainstream.
But why's it a big deal for Marines to not be male only? That argument runs both ways automatically. You're not giving any compelling reasoning for why Marines should be male only, you're just saying 'why can't they be male only?' to which I imagine the appropriate response is simply; 'why can't the be mixed gendered?'
Also, for the record, I should add that I am not particularly invested one way or another. That there exists an all male faction doesn't particularly bother me at all and I've never felt a particular desire for it to change.
However, the fact is that there simply is no reason beyond the obvious; "The main market for Space Marines don't want girls in their team" which actually excludes the possibility of Female Space Marines. There are no female Space Marines because there isn't a big enough market for them and, instead, there are actually a lot of people who'd be rabidly opposed to the possibility of such a thing.
I think its a pity that such people exist but, then again, its low down on my list of things I believe are a pity in this online fandom.
@Tactical_Spam: Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic, hence why there's really no objective basis for why females can't be Space Marines. The answer is simply that the 'magic' doesn't work on them. Again, to me, that doesn't really matter since I don't much care for the issue.
Honestly I still am just flabbergasted at the idea that someone would stop playing with Eldar or Tau simply because they can't tell the gender apart. I mean, in all honesty, I can't imagine someone would stop playing Space Marines just because beneath the armour some of them might be us 'icky' girls, right?
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
You know, the more this subject gets talked about (or I talk about it), the more I understand why we nerds/geeks were best left out of the mainstream.
But why's it a big deal for Marines to not be male only? That argument runs both ways automatically. You're not giving any compelling reasoning for why Marines should be male only, you're just saying 'why can't they be male only?' to which I imagine the appropriate response is simply; 'why can't the be mixed gendered?'
Also, for the record, I should add that I am not particularly invested one way or another. That there exists an all male faction doesn't particularly bother me at all and I've never felt a particular desire for it to change.
However, the fact is that there simply is no reason beyond the obvious; "The main market for Space Marines don't want girls in their team" which actually excludes the possibility of Female Space Marines. There are no female Space Marines because there isn't a big enough market for them and, instead, there are actually a lot of people who'd be rabidly opposed to the possibility of such a thing.
I think its a pity that such people exist but, then again, its low down on my list of things I believe are a pity in this online fandom.
@Tactical_Spam: Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic, hence why there's really no objective basis for why females can't be Space Marines. The answer is simply that the 'magic' doesn't work on them. Again, to me, that doesn't really matter since I don't much care for the issue.
Honestly I still am just flabbergasted at the idea that someone would stop playing with Eldar or Tau simply because they can't tell the gender apart. I mean, in all honesty, I can't imagine someone would stop playing Space Marines just because beneath the armour some of them might be us 'icky' girls, right?
I'm going to say it again as politely, but as boldly as possible: They are genetic clones of the Emperor
There is no issue with Female Space Marines if they were possible, but they are not possible. I have no issue with female Spartans in the Halo Franchise, so this white knighting of an argument that's been done to death falls right through.
Except they clearly are not exact clones of the emperor-otherwise, wouldn't they all be massively powerful psykers and in general be about 10,000 times more badass?
So why can't the voodoo magic of Space Marineification work on ladies?
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
You know, the more this subject gets talked about (or I talk about it), the more I understand why we nerds/geeks were best left out of the mainstream.
But why's it a big deal for Marines to not be male only? That argument runs both ways automatically. You're not giving any compelling reasoning for why Marines should be male only, you're just saying 'why can't they be male only?' to which I imagine the appropriate response is simply; 'why can't the be mixed gendered?'
Also, for the record, I should add that I am not particularly invested one way or another. That there exists an all male faction doesn't particularly bother me at all and I've never felt a particular desire for it to change.
However, the fact is that there simply is no reason beyond the obvious; "The main market for Space Marines don't want girls in their team" which actually excludes the possibility of Female Space Marines. There are no female Space Marines because there isn't a big enough market for them and, instead, there are actually a lot of people who'd be rabidly opposed to the possibility of such a thing.
I think its a pity that such people exist but, then again, its low down on my list of things I believe are a pity in this online fandom.
@Tactical_Spam: Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic, hence why there's really no objective basis for why females can't be Space Marines. The answer is simply that the 'magic' doesn't work on them. Again, to me, that doesn't really matter since I don't much care for the issue.
Honestly I still am just flabbergasted at the idea that someone would stop playing with Eldar or Tau simply because they can't tell the gender apart. I mean, in all honesty, I can't imagine someone would stop playing Space Marines just because beneath the armour some of them might be us 'icky' girls, right?
Well there's precedence for their being female Tau/Guardsmen/Eldar/Dark Eldar etc. in the fluff. There is none for male Banshees or female space marines. I imagine that was by design. Indeed, I'm sure the SoB were created because someone went "Hey, how about female space marines?"
But yeah, I think we're in agreement that it's silly for people to blow a gasket over it. 40K is a lot like DnD, or Burger King. You can have it your way, even if your way infuriates (for some reason) someone else.
Whoever is interested in female Space Marines has Sisters of Battle. Or can easily make up a Chaos warband of female CSM, dark mechanicum could easily do it I guess.
Yes, it sucks that fluffwise 100% of SM are male and as it seems 95% are also white. It tells us sth. about the British society in the 80s and if they should ever make popular movies about the Horus Heresy I wouldn't be surprised if that was the first thing that'd change.
Anemone wrote: But why's it a big deal for Marines to not be male only? That argument runs both ways automatically. You're not giving any compelling reasoning for why Marines should be male only, you're just saying 'why can't they be male only?' to which I imagine the appropriate response is simply; 'why can't the be mixed gendered?'
Mrs. Esterhouse wrote:There's no women space marines...Well, you see...They don't...Because...The reason is...
Oh nevermind
Have you disregarded all fluff points people have said?
If so, may I reiterate and throw my own spin on:
1. The process of creating Space Marines has, to date, been only done on males.
2. The process itself is barely understood by anyone barring the Emperor - the closest we could get alive is MAYBE Fabius Bile (and even if he did know, that only benefits Chaos, not regular Space Marines)
3. The Emperor, by design or by even his own limitations, made ALL Space Marines male. Now, he may have been sexist himself, unable to bond gene-seed to female bodies (perhaps due to the lack of a Y chromosome which gene-seed might require to bond with), or any other reason.
4. The Imperium, due to their dogmatic adherence to tradition (seen throughout their hierarchy), have probably not even strayed from the Emperor's design, or if they have attempted to, have been purged for HERESY! or simply failed due to their failure to understand gene-seed.
5. Constant reference of Space Marines as the Emperor's "Sons", "Children", "Grandsons" would probably affect Imperial perception of Space Marines all being male.
5. And if it is a case of voodoo magic of not being able to make female Space Marines, that is because the writers said so, just like how Eldar are a dying race, or how Orks have a gestalt field, or why Chaos isn't ruling the galaxy, or etc etc - just like any other rule of canon. That is what it is.
6.Every other faction (which have recognised gender difference) should have mixed representation in all aspects, EXCLUDING Space Marines (of all variants) and Sisters of Battle, because the fluff explains why they are mono-gender. And no, making them mixed doesn't mean boob-plate. It means that Necrons shouldn't have boob-plate. They are automata. Tau don't need anything massively more than the Y-slit on their head. Really, this applies to Eldar and Guardsmen (and Scions, Inquisition, genestealer cultist and regular cultists, if you want to go obscure)
7. I do not have an issue with female super soldiers. Halo, Destiny and Overwatch all work for me. I have an issue with female Space Marines in the same way one might object to male Sisters of Battle (Brothers of Battle?): they are not supported by lore.
Meh.. all my space marines are women, they just shave their heads and have the gene-seed scars. They work out a lot and wear power armor so it's hard to tell, but they are women. Too bad chemical castration is a part of the process of becoming a space marine, would be really nice to breed more stable iterations of marine.
pumaman1 wrote: Meh.. all my space marines are women, they just shave their heads and have the gene-seed scars. They work out a lot and wear power armor so it's hard to tell, but they are women. Too bad chemical castration is a part of the process of becoming a space marine, would be really nice to breed more stable iterations of marine.
That is the single most heresy I've ever seen in a post.
Also, I'd refrain from mentioning "breeding" and "female Space Marines" in the same sentence lest you summon Swastakowey
@Tactical_Spam: They aren't genetic clones. Otherwise how could they be from various different genetic makeups? They have an aspect of his genetic structure implanted into them, that doesn't make them clones.
Like...at all. That's not what a clone is.
@Lusall: Actually there are male Howling Banshees. We are told they don the same feminine armour and adopt feminine war masks (as in the persona) but they are male.
Really its just funny to me someone quitting an army because he can't tell the gender of some of his/her troops.
Is it that important?
*Shrugs* As I said though it isn't a particularly pertinent issue to me. An all male army is fine the same way an all female army is fine.
Acting as if the reasoning for it is anything more than just a decision by the creators to appeal to a certain fanbase is what I don't understand.
@Sgt_Smudge: The Fluff points that they are genetic clones of the Emperor? Or the ones that the process of becoming a Space Marine is practically vodoo magic?
Because if the latter you'd note, if you read, my above posts that I said the fact that Space Marine transformations is pretty much equivalent to magic means that arguing for the mono-gendered nature of Space Marines as being anything more than author fiat is silly.
But I never said it wasn't author fiat, nor did I dispute that it was canonical. I have no idea why you're suggesting that.
Personally I'd see equally no problem with a male ecclesiarchy force *shrugs* it wouldn't reduce SoB's for me anymore than female Space Marines would, I don't see why so many people get so bothered by it, its just gender, why is it important that there is only one? Or two?
Kudos for being willing to acknowledge the Emperor was sexist, I'm honestly surprised someone on this site is wiling to contemplate such a thing.
If someone wants to run the "Emperor's Chickas" I say more power to 'em. I don't care about their personal chapter's fluff regardless. As long as they don't try to bore me with it, it doesn't matter. Their chapter fluff could be about giant mutated fluffy bunny spazz marinse for all I care. Their minis, they can do what they want as long as it WYSIWYG.
Troy wrote: If someone wants to run the "Emperor's Chickas" I say more power to 'em. I don't care about their personal chapter's fluff regardless. As long as they don't try to bore me with it, it doesn't matter. Their chapter fluff could be about giant mutated fluffy bunny spazz marinse for all I care. Their minis, they can do what they want as long as it WYSIWYG.
This actually makes me genuinely happy to hear.
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
Challenge accepted.
Yeah, it'd also make an interesting narrative point; the ecclesiarchy trying to set up armies again, potential for fluff-justified conflicts with other Imperium forces as well what with the 'no men under arms' and all that.
Anemone wrote: @Lusall: Actually there are male Howling Banshees. We are told they don the same feminine armour and adopt feminine war masks (as in the persona) but they are male.
Really its just funny to me someone quitting an army because he can't tell the gender of some of his/her troops.
Is it that important?
*Shrugs* As I said though it isn't a particularly pertinent issue to me. An all male army is fine the same way an all female army is fine.
Acting as if the reasoning for it is anything more than just a decision by the creators to appeal to a certain fanbase is what I don't understand.
Or maybe the creators just wanted to create what they wanted, not necessarily for a fanbase, so to speak? The trope of most Space Marine players being childish teens and creating "No gurlz allowed" rules is frankly overdone, IMHO.
As for quitting an army, if the army's lore changes (which it would have to, to support female SMs), is that not a reason to quit them? Say Tyranids go through a phase wherein their entire shtick about being a biological army needing to feed is scrapped and they become MLP cavalry and beasts with exo-suits? Would you chastise Tyranid players if they quit that?
@Sgt_Smudge: The Fluff points that they are genetic clones of the Emperor? Or the ones that the process of becoming a Space Marine is practically vodoo magic?
Because if the latter you'd note, if you read, my above posts that I said the fact that Space Marine transformations is pretty much equivalent to magic means that arguing for the mono-gendered nature of Space Marines as being anything more than author fiat is silly.
But I never said it wasn't author fiat, nor did I dispute that it was canonical. I have no idea why you're suggesting that.
Personally I'd see equally no problem with a male ecclesiarchy force *shrugs* it wouldn't reduce SoB's for me anymore than female Space Marines would, I don't see why so many people get so bothered by it, its just gender, why is it important that there is only one? Or two?
Kudos for being willing to acknowledge the Emperor was sexist, I'm honestly surprised someone on this site is wiling to contemplate such a thing.
Okay, where have I mentioned they are genetic clones of the Emperor? And the voodoo magic quote is from yourself, saying to Tactical_Spam "Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic". I'm using your statement.
And yes, it's all up to the author: like ALL CANON. Much as in the same way the Imperium has a rotting corpse for an Emperor, orks are warlike, and the leader of the main heresy in M31 was Horus. That is all because the author wrote it.
Hell, why not ask:
Why is Horus called Horus and not *insert name here*?
Why are orks warlike?
Why is the Tau Empire so technologically advanced?
Why... etc etc.
It is what the author wrote, and is therefore canon. This is no different to any other work of fiction. In this case, the author has provided us with points to speculate as to WHY there are no female SMs, but has not said. Whether that is deliberate or purely out of laziness, we don't know.
I don't understand your other point. I'm just making the canon argument we have, because this is 40k Background, and lore arguments are meant to be used. I provided some, not necessarily as argument, but as proposition.
A male Ecclesiarchy doesn't work with current lore, due to the Decree Passive. I'd oppose male SOB just as intensely as female SMs. The lore sets them as mono-gender, and mono-gender they will be to me, unless someone changes the lore. But why change the lore? Is there a need to? I am bothered by it like any other aspect of lore - I see diplomatic Tyranids? Nope. I see Space Marines who have perfected everything, cured the Red Thirst, descended from every Primarch, super powerful but with a DARK SEEECRET SHUSHHH and liked by everyone? Hell nope. It's not female Space Marines I have an issue with. It's running counter to lore which I hesitate at.
Want your Space Marines to be female? Cool. But I won't believe that myself for a second.
And yes, of course one can consider the Emperor being sexist. As an individual, it's a perfectly feasible thing. However, seeing a lack of evidence (overtly presented) to support this, I don't really support it too strongly. For every argument he didn't make female SMs because of sexism, another perfectly good one states that maybe it was just physically impossible, even for him.
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
Well given the Lore states they aren't allowed 'men under arms' I can see an inventive way around that, maybe with one of those big chainsaw wotsits the priests have
Or maybe the creators just wanted to create what they wanted, not necessarily for a fanbase, so to speak? The trope of most Space Marine players being childish teens and creating "No gurlz allowed" rules is frankly overdone, IMHO.
You're argument here is that the company just made Space Marines because its what they really liked and not in order to be commercially successful by altering it to be profitable over time?
I mean. If you want to believe that fine. Its very nice and idealistic.
As for quitting an army, if the army's lore changes (which it would have to, to support female SMs), is that not a reason to quit them? Say Tyranids go through a phase wherein their entire shtick about being a biological army needing to feed is scrapped and they become MLP cavalry and beasts with exo-suits? Would you chastise Tyranid players if they quit that?
I wouldn't have considered the presence of mixed-gendered Space Marines anywhere near the level of the change you've hypothetically suggested for the 'nids. Clearly we place gender on two very different levels of importance. To me it'd be an inconsequential change, like when the Tyranid's main paint scheme went from Kraken to Leviathen. Yeah, I'd have found it weird if someone quit Tyranid because of something as minor as a paint scheme, which is what I see gender as.
Okay, where have I mentioned they are genetic clones of the Emperor? And the voodoo magic quote is from yourself, saying to Tactical_Spam "Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic". I'm using your statement.
Didn't you say the 'fluff points that have been made in this thread?' I presumed you weren't referring to just your own fluff points so I mentioned ones others made too. If we're going to discuss 'fluff points' I thought it best to be inclusive. What's wrong with that?
Hell, why not ask:
Why is Horus called Horus and not *insert name here*?
Why are orks warlike?
Are you presuming I'd have a problem with these questions? Cause I really wouldn't?
Why is the Tau Empire so technologically advanced?
What? Compared to who?
A male Ecclesiarchy doesn't work with current lore, due to the Decree Passive. I'd oppose male SOB just as intensely as female SMs. The lore sets them as mono-gender, and mono-gender they will be to me, unless someone changes the lore. But why change the lore? Is there a need to? I am bothered by it like any other aspect of lore - I see diplomatic Tyranids? Nope. I see Space Marines who have perfected everything, cured the Red Thirst, descended from every Primarch, super powerful but with a DARK SEEECRET SHUSHHH and liked by everyone? Hell nope. It's not female Space Marines I have an issue with. It's running counter to lore which I hesitate at.
Whats wrong with lore changing? Honestly I understand disliking bad changes to lore, and I don't dispute they exist, but I definitely don't believe lore should never change at all. If the lore changed to allow female Space Marines and male Sisters of Battle I'd imagine, and hope, it wouldn't be considered a very big deal by players (in universe would be a different matter).
Want your Space Marines to be female? Cool. But I won't believe that myself for a second.
Your belief isn't really necessary.
And yes, of course one can consider the Emperor being sexist. As an individual, it's a perfectly feasible thing. However, seeing a lack of evidence (overtly presented) to support this, I don't really support it too strongly. For every argument he didn't make female SMs because of sexism, another perfectly good one states that maybe it was just physically impossible, even for him.
You do realize that the Emperor being sexist doesn't just ride on the Space Marines right? There's a lot more to him than that.
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
Well given the Lore states they aren't allowed 'men under arms' I can see an inventive way around that, maybe with one of those big chainsaw wotsits the priests have
The Fraterus Militia or something along those lines. There's your ill-equipped and untrained military branch of the Adeptus Ministorum. They also go by Redemptionists. Due to the Decree Passive, they will not be receiving power armour like the SoB anytime soon
Gene seed mutates and changes all the time, both in-universe and in real life. Things get retconned or 'revealed,' and suddenly this chapter turns into spider-monsters for no apparent reason. Chapter X can see the future, Chapter Y grows giant bone spurs and might be able to breathe fire. Introducing a mutation in the fluff that allows gene seed to correctly bond with an organism without a Y chromosome seems totally within the bounds of reasonability, given the spectrum of 'reasonability' we have in 40k.
We aren't ever told that the Emperor specifically wanted a he-man woman haters club when he made the Primarchs. The only justification there is in the lore is that the gene seed doesn't work with genetically female individuals, so there's no huge fluff retcon required.
Further, being male is in no way a part of the core characterization of the Space Marines. If anything, gender is virtually irrelevant to them. Space Marines are ascetic warrior-monks who engage in a sci-fi version of heraldric warrior traditions. Nothing about that requires them to be male, and making them female doesn't change it.
Introducing male sisters would actually require more work, since you'd have to retcon the background behind their creation.
Further, the Sisters of Battle are the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, which in fact does field male soldiers (in the form of priest retinues). There are no such female equivalents accompanying Space Marine leaders into battle.
TL;dr: in the case of the Sisters the gender imbalance is an integral part of their fluff. In the case of Space Marines the gender imbalance is only part of their fluff to justify the gender exclusion that existed for years before it was questioned.
Okay...but how far back do we have to go and stop changing things? I'm sure everyone's going to differ quite a lot about that.
Also I guess I shouldn't then mention I like Necrons having the capacity for more nuanced diplomatic interaction and diverse motives. *shrugs*
To make Female Space Marines, Black library would have to retcon every single book that mentions the Astartes and start the Horus Heresy from the beginning. You'd have to delete much more fluff to make Female Space Marines than you would to make male SoB
TL;dr: in the case of the Sisters the gender imbalance is an integral part of their fluff. In the case of Space Marines the gender imbalance is only part of their fluff to justify the gender exclusion that existed for years before it was questioned.
I would argue that the Space Marine Gender imbalance is integral to their status as a parody of the 20th century interpretation of Nietzsche superman.
Has anyone looked at the number of recruts from any given planet. My question is, if only at most 1000 are sellected from the intire population, what would the likelyhood for a female space marine even be?
warhead01 wrote: Has anyone looked at the number of recruts from any given planet. My question is, if only at most 1000 are sellected from the intire population, what would the likelyhood for a female space marine even be?
It takes tens of thousands of recruits to make a single Chapter. They are taken from the best of the best, which being a sexually dimorphic species, would be all males.
They are taken from the best of the best, which being a sexually dimorphic species, would be all males.
The "best" qualification is whatever makes geneseed take to the host. There no amount of toughness or badassness that makes up for geneseed rejection. IIRC there's been explicit cases of weaker but more suitable hosts taking up the geneseed and overcoming their previous flaws. Very Capt. America in a way.
It's not unimaginable that some human populations would be better for recruitment than others and it's similarly not unimaginable (though it would be exceedingly rare) that some of those more qualified pops. would be women or include women.
Or maybe the creators just wanted to create what they wanted, not necessarily for a fanbase, so to speak? The trope of most Space Marine players being childish teens and creating "No gurlz allowed" rules is frankly overdone, IMHO.
You're argument here is that the company just made Space Marines because its what they really liked and not in order to be commercially successful by altering it to be profitable over time?
I mean. If you want to believe that fine. Its very nice and idealistic.
Maybe true. Unfortunately, this changes nothing. We're in Background, and I think lore is the most important thing to discuss.
Besides, to quote yourself "Your belief isn't necessary." I'll believe what I might about GW's business practice, regardless what you might.
As for quitting an army, if the army's lore changes (which it would have to, to support female SMs), is that not a reason to quit them? Say Tyranids go through a phase wherein their entire shtick about being a biological army needing to feed is scrapped and they become MLP cavalry and beasts with exo-suits? Would you chastise Tyranid players if they quit that?
I wouldn't have considered the presence of mixed-gendered Space Marines anywhere near the level of the change you've hypothetically suggested for the 'nids. Clearly we place gender on two very different levels of importance. To me it'd be an inconsequential change, like when the Tyranid's main paint scheme went from Kraken to Leviathen. Yeah, I'd have found it weird if someone quit Tyranid because of something as minor as a paint scheme, which is what I see gender as.
So, you ignore all the context of the setting and reasons to why gender matters in those armies, purely because you see it as cosmetic? Huh.
I felt my examples would be appropriate if you properly wanted to add mixed genders, seeing as you'd need to retcon fluff (especially so in the Sister's case). However, to use your logic - if Sisters of Battle were changed in aesthetic to be massively sexualised, to the point of offensiveness. Or Vostroyan Imperial Guard's aesthetic changing from Russian-esque uniform to Celtic instead. Would that be a justified reason for someone to quit Vostroyans?
Okay, where have I mentioned they are genetic clones of the Emperor? And the voodoo magic quote is from yourself, saying to Tactical_Spam "Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic". I'm using your statement.
Didn't you say the 'fluff points that have been made in this thread?' I presumed you weren't referring to just your own fluff points so I mentioned ones others made too. If we're going to discuss 'fluff points' I thought it best to be inclusive. What's wrong with that?
Because it's not a point I endorse.
If you want to put words in my mouth, go ahead, but I've not supported that. If you think lumping all opposing views together and not dealing with them case by case is completely okay, I will vehemently disagree.
And I have only mentioned some fluff points. I don't think I ever insinuated that ALL fluff points were accurate, according to me.
Hell, why not ask:
Why is Horus called Horus and not *insert name here*?
Why are orks warlike?
Are you presuming I'd have a problem with these questions? Cause I really wouldn't?
No. I am merely making the point.
Of course though, I do wonder why you're arguing in a fluff forum if you see the so-called fundamentals of the setting as quite so malleable.
Why is the Tau Empire so technologically advanced?
What? Compared to who?
The Imperium, on standard of living (for the majority of citizens)
Orks, on technological control.
Tyranids, seeing as they have no electrical tech.
And yes - for their age as a race, the Tau advanced in tech VERY quickly.
A male Ecclesiarchy doesn't work with current lore, due to the Decree Passive. I'd oppose male SOB just as intensely as female SMs. The lore sets them as mono-gender, and mono-gender they will be to me, unless someone changes the lore. But why change the lore? Is there a need to? I am bothered by it like any other aspect of lore - I see diplomatic Tyranids? Nope. I see Space Marines who have perfected everything, cured the Red Thirst, descended from every Primarch, super powerful but with a DARK SEEECRET SHUSHHH and liked by everyone? Hell nope. It's not female Space Marines I have an issue with. It's running counter to lore which I hesitate at.
Whats wrong with lore changing? Honestly I understand disliking bad changes to lore, and I don't dispute they exist, but I definitely don't believe lore should never change at all. If the lore changed to allow female Space Marines and male Sisters of Battle I'd imagine, and hope, it wouldn't be considered a very big deal by players (in universe would be a different matter).
Counter-argument: what's wrong with keeping it the same?
I don't object to lore changes, provided they are done well, and actually bring something unique to the faction's flavour.
Want your Space Marines to be female? Cool. But I won't believe that myself for a second.
Your belief isn't really necessary.
So, if my belief means nothing, why are you even concerned about lore, if you can dismiss canon conflict without hesitation? Especially in a Background discussion?
And yes, of course one can consider the Emperor being sexist. As an individual, it's a perfectly feasible thing. However, seeing a lack of evidence (overtly presented) to support this, I don't really support it too strongly. For every argument he didn't make female SMs because of sexism, another perfectly good one states that maybe it was just physically impossible, even for him.
You do realize that the Emperor being sexist doesn't just ride on the Space Marines right? There's a lot more to him than that.
But this is more what I expected.
I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean?
But still, the Emperor is a very enigmatic figure (he probably has a cloak of mysteries, riddles and enigmas himself) - I doubt we'll ever know everything about him.
They are taken from the best of the best, which being a sexually dimorphic species, would be all males.
The "best" qualification is whatever makes geneseed take to the host. There no amount of toughness or badassness that makes up for geneseed rejection. IIRC there's been explicit cases of weaker but more suitable hosts taking up the geneseed and overcoming their previous flaws. Very Capt. America in a way.
It's not unimaginable that some human populations would be better for recruitment than others and it's similarly not unimaginable (though it would be exceedingly rare) that some of those more qualified pops. would be women or include women.
No, they have trials before they receive a gene seed. Women are physically inferior to men and many many studies would agree. Double this with the fact that you need a Y chromosome to get a gene seed and I'd say women are excluded from the ranks of the Astartes.
No, they have trials before they receive a gene seed.
Yes, because this is techno-primitive grim darkness and no chapter has any idea what qualification makes for good gene seed implantation.
They're not going to bother with something like DNA sequencing when even suggesting such things is heresy and the only one who can even run a sequencer has to light incense and pray towards Mars to get it to work.
Women are physically inferior to men and many many studies would agree.
Just going to roll my eyes and move on.
Double this with the fact that you need a Y chromosome to get a gene seed and I'd say women are excluded from the ranks of the Astartes.
There's nothing that makes that a certainty. It's a backwards inference to say only men are space marines therefore only men can ever be space marines.
Only 40k players like bolters therefore only bolter likers can play 40k? The train of logic just doesn't work that way.
--
I'm not advocating either way on changing the fluff aspect tbh, but I find the childish hammering on a desk about "no only men!" pretty tedious since other than keeping with the previous (and I mean all the way back to the 80s) fluff there's no actual given reason for marines to be any particular gender.
No, they have trials before they receive a gene seed.
Yes, because this is techno-primitive grim darkness and no chapter has any idea what qualification makes for good gene seed implantation.
Besides 10000 years of tradition, yes, they have absolutely no idea
They're not going to bother with something like DNA sequencing when even suggesting such things is heresy and the only one who can even run a sequencer has to light incense and pray towards Mars to get it to work.
But they will bother with whether or not their aspirants have a penis. And nowhere in the fluff does the concept of DNA fall under heresy. How would the Adeptus Mechanicum have an entire branch dedicated to biology.
Women are physically inferior to men and many many studies would agree.
Just going to roll my eyes and move on.
Compare the strongest man to the strongest woman.
Double this with the fact that you need a Y chromosome to get a gene seed and I'd say women are excluded from the ranks of the Astartes.
There's nothing that makes that a certainty. It's a backwards inference to say only men are space marines therefore only men can ever be space marines.
Having no reference of a Female Space Marine over the course of 10000 years would be enough of an inference, as well as all the fluff that states that only men can be Space Marines.
Only 40k players like bolters therefore only bolter likers can play 40k? The train of logic doesn't work that way.
That's quite the false equivalency you've got there.
I'm not advocating either way on changing the fluff aspect tbh, but I find the childish hammering on a desk about "no only men!" pretty tedious since other than keeping with the previous (and I mean all the way back to the 80s) fluff there's no actual given reason for marines to be any particular gender.
I think it's tedious to explain the fluff over and over again to prove my point when all you have to do is play semantics and virtue signal.
Anemone wrote: @Lusall: Actually there are male Howling Banshees. We are told they don the same feminine armour and adopt feminine war masks (as in the persona) but they are male.
Really its just funny to me someone quitting an army because he can't tell the gender of some of his/her troops.
Is it that important?
*Shrugs* As I said though it isn't a particularly pertinent issue to me. An all male army is fine the same way an all female army is fine.
Acting as if the reasoning for it is anything more than just a decision by the creators to appeal to a certain fan base is what I don't understand.
Ah, well then I retract that statement. However, that doesn't exactly make my point null and void. In the fluff proper, there is no precedence for a female space marine. But I'll say again...40K is what you make of it. On a side note...I nearly quit Dark Angels due to the fluff changes they made to them most recently. In general, 40K writing has gone down the tube, and the recent "Wulfen" book infuriated me. Not exactly the same thing, but it's not unfair to quit an army over fluff. (Not that I would quit it over female space marines)
To your last point though, the decision to make space marines only male was, IMO, unlikely done just to appease a male audience. Sisters on the other hand...yeah, I'd say that was true. And not just male audiences but the female one too. In reality, GW is silent on the subject for exactly the reason you stated. Economics. It's in their best interest to not explain it. Because, again, if fans want female space marines, then it. But if they said "Okay, females can be space marines" or "No female space marines" they'd rustle the feathers of one group of ham fisted butter trolls or another to the point that the end times would happen weather they wanted it to or not.
Besides 10000 years of tradition, yes, they have absolutely no idea
Many cultures have traditions that have nothing to do with best medical practices.
Compare the strongest man to the strongest woman.
Or you know people might want the candidates that can withstand more G forces, survive on less food and not risk going blind in zero grav (NASA is still trying to puzzle out why that is). The actual space part of space marine maybe?
Having no reference of a Female Space Marine over the course of 10000 years would be enough of an inference, as well as all the fluff that states that only men can be Space Marines.
Any story or setting that is limited to have only what is apparent at the outset is effectively dead. There can't be any arc or development, no new or interesting challenges or concepts because that wasn't in the fluff at the beginning (OMG).
If the only things that can exist are what already exist there's nothing to keep the audience involved. It's a basic part of storytelling to have things change.
As I said I'm not partisan for either side, but I think the concept that everything that can be invented has been invented is patently wrong on it's face and worth arguing against.
virtue signal.
I guess we're done then if this going to turn into buzzwords and accusations. Nice talking with you.
The reason is simple. Original RT marines were created as monastic brotherhoods, just as the Adepta Sororitas were created as 'an order of warrior women'. When they upgraded marines from regular humans to enhanced super soldiers they simply kept that element, just as they kept things like Chapters and Fortress Monasteries. There's nothing more to it and now 25 years later they're stuck with it.
Why isn't there a beastmen marine? Transexual marine?(though the 3rd legion is pretty close) Because there isn't, simple as that. Stop these stupid questions and nag for plastic sisters of battle, I hope they never get remade, and the rumors ae just that, a rumor.
Those who desire strong female representation in the background (and I am one of them) are also fairly well-served by other factions in the fluff, from all flavours of Eldar to the Sisters of Battle to even the Tau. If your complaint is that they aren't represented in the "posterboy" faction, then be a part of the solution and buy more Eldar, SoB, and Tau models and stop feeding into the narrative that 40K sells because of Space Marines. God knows there are few people more ticked off than I am that GW has saddled Warhammer Fantasy with Ground Marines.
There are
And for some reason it isn't considered heretical, yet marines who burn in flames of pure emprah power are.
By the Emperor, those models are atrocious...
Eeyup.
Also, the claim that they're "not considered heretical isn't entirely accurate. The 13th company of Wulfen is not officially sanctioned by the Imperium. They've only reappeared relatively recently (during the 13th Black Crusade) and given how close the Dark Angels have come to nuking the Space Wolves since then, I can only imagine what will happen once a puritanical Inquisitor Lord gets wind of them...
The argument I was reading was that the SM are created using geneseed and that weaker candidates would be taken if they were to be more able to take the geneseed.
Only problem with that argument is that your completely forgetting how a recruit is first taken by most chapters (usually some kind of strength/endurance trial) and then your forgetting one major flaw. Every Primarch (That we know of) is male. Your putting male Genes into a female. The male genes are so powerful that they turn regular guys into super human soldiers. So who is to say that women aren't already in the SMs but they are basically transformed into men because of how powerful the geneseed is?
There you go Feminists you can have your cake and eat it to Enjoy.
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
The fluff says that's a no no, just like Female Space Marines.
Worth pointing it out that while a female space marine is impossible in the background, male sisters of battle are a result of some lawmaker that will likely never be reversed. Means male sob are more possible than the female space marines, still not getting either so the complaining should probably end.
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SemperMortis wrote: The argument I was reading was that the SM are created using geneseed and that weaker candidates would be taken if they were to be more able to take the geneseed.
Only problem with that argument is that your completely forgetting how a recruit is first taken by most chapters (usually some kind of strength/endurance trial) and then your forgetting one major flaw. Every Primarch (That we know of) is male. Your putting male Genes into a female. The male genes are so powerful that they turn regular guys into super human soldiers. So who is to say that women aren't already in the SMs but they are basically transformed into men because of how powerful the geneseed is?
There you go Feminists you can have your cake and eat it to Enjoy.
Because it kills whoever it fails on and it says it is incompatible with females, hence any female space marine would likely be dead before the process is completed.
Anyone who disagree can also start their own fluff about the 2nd and 11th legion.
I already suggested that on the first page of this thread. It's a valid, water-proof suggestion, yet some people ignored it.
Agiel wrote: Those who desire strong female representation in the background (and I am one of them) are also fairly well-served by other factions in the fluff, from all flavours of Eldar to the Sisters of Battle to even the Tau. If your complaint is that they aren't represented in the "posterboy" faction, then be a part of the solution and buy more Eldar, SoB, and Tau models and stop feeding into the narrative that 40K sells because of Space Marines. God knows there are few people more ticked off than I am that GW has saddled Warhammer Fantasy with Ground Marines.
You could also easily make female guardsmen. Plenty of 3rd party companies that make suitable female heads, or entire full body models.
This guy doesn't get enough praise, and I wish I could use his models for some of my projects. If you're doing a Cadian army, you could easily swap the original male head with his all-female heads, and because of the bulky armour (and oversized equipment) it would still work.*
@Tactical_Spam: Why retcon? Just make it a new development like JimSolo suggested a page back. There's no need to retcon anything. (not that retconning is necessarily bad in Warhammer 40k, there's a lot which I think could do with retconning).
Honestly I just don't get how vehemently opposed people are to the concept in a universe like 40k. Where, as said on this site often, absurdity and a lack of sense, and contradictory fluff, are very commonplace. Sure its not canonical now, never disputed that, and sure there's no pressing, urgent need to fix it or anything, but why the almost militant fear of the concept? I just don't understand it.
Also since you use a term like 'virtue signal' to attack someone else I'd rather not continue discussing with you. Cheers.
@StygianBeach: This is actually a fair point. That being said Nietzsche would abhor Space Marines and they really don't fulfill his criterion for Ubermensch status at all, but they are what I'd imagine Games Workshop would think is Ubermensch-like seeing as the writer's grasp of philosophy fails to impress at all.
@warhead01: Dependent on the planet and how humans living their have altered seeing as how differences are influenced by how circumstances and surroundings over periods of tens-of-thousands of years?
@Sgt_Smudge:
I'll believe what I might about GW's business practice, regardless what you might.
Isn't that just repeating 'if you want to believe that fine' which is what I literally said?
So, you ignore all the context of the setting and reasons to why gender matters in those armies, purely because you see it as cosmetic?
What? I simply see gender as cosmetic. And it is. The context is easily changed and, in my opinion, gender is as minor as a paint scheme and thus I don't feel opposed to differing genders and would not quite an army over differing genders the same way I don't mind people doing their own paint schemes and would be surprised if someone quit an army over paint scheme.
I mean we have a guy at my place who paints his Orks human-skin colour and it absolutely doesn't bother me at all. *shrugs* Same with gender of units.
And I have only mentioned some fluff points. I don't think I ever insinuated that ALL fluff points were accurate, according to me.
But now you're expecting me to be telepathic. You just said 'the fluff points' and so I went back and looked through the fluff points I thought you were referring to.
The Imperium, on standard of living (for the majority of citizens)
Orks, on technological control.
Tyranids, seeing as they have no electrical tech.
And yes - for their age as a race, the Tau advanced in tech VERY quickly.
That's a lot of provisos on your earlier claim which pretty much invalidates it. Also actually kind of weird that the faction who keep in official fluff being described as 'advanced' are actually the lowest-tech nation in the game.
Counter-argument: what's wrong with keeping it the same?
It gets boring? More importantly though, how do we decide when to freeze it then? What's the point at which fluff can no longer change?
But still, the Emperor is a very enigmatic figure
That's more what I expected.
@Lusall: Not saying its ' unfair' to quit an army over fluff, I just said I'd find it strange if someone quite over something like gender (which I feel to be superfluous)
Also 'no female space marines' would not generate a strong counter reaction, not from the Warhammer fanbase at all, it's not such a fanbase. The counter-claim 'there are female Space Marines' would cause a storm though. Just read /tg/. Other than that I find it surprising that you think Space Marines were created then for some sort of 'idealistic' reason rather than simple economics. Clearly I'm too jaded.
@Kojiro: Yeah, I agree, this is a believable explanation to me.
@Agiel: Though I like what you are saying, and agree with a lot of it, I'm afraid I've just given up any hope of their being any meaningful change in that regard ever. Sorry. Space Marines are all that really matters in 40k and that is never going to change.
@Lord Kragan: I really hope that was all meant as a joke.
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
Well given the Lore states they aren't allowed 'men under arms' I can see an inventive way around that, maybe with one of those big chainsaw wotsits the priests have
The Fraterus Militia or something along those lines. There's your ill-equipped and untrained military branch of the Adeptus Ministorum. They also go by Redemptionists. Due to the Decree Passive, they will not be receiving power armour like the SoB anytime soon
On the flip side, one can make their own formation following the same rules and fluff. As we have had rebellions and schisms a'plenty they could arise during the time (or indeed be part of a rebellious faction during that time period). Even better, one could make chaos nuns.
Another thought- Women SPazz Marinse could be an adeptus experiment. They don't even have to be marines, just gals in very advanced power armor that have the same stats. They could even be a new heavy unit of the Nuns with Guns. Nuns with Guns 2.0 with their prayers accounting for any special powers the marines may have, or alternatively special drugs like assassins have. They don't have Spazz Marise Jeans but they're armor, prayers, and combat drugs make up for it. PLus - unlike marines- they won't rebel. An alternative is the above but substitute nuns with Guns 2.0 make it a heavy combat unit from planet Chola Maxima. Tradition limits this combat group to women just because.
Lusall wrote: [Well there's precedence for their being female Tau/Guardsmen/Eldar/Dark Eldar etc. in the fluff. There is none for male Banshees or female space marines. I imagine that was by design. Indeed, I'm sure the SoB were created because someone went "Hey, how about female space marines?"
But yeah, I think we're in agreement that it's silly for people to blow a gasket over it. 40K is a lot like DnD, or Burger King. You can have it your way, even if your way infuriates (for some reason) someone else.
Only that THERE'S precent of male banshees. They are called drag-queens by their kin because they crossdress.
You missed the part where I rescinded that statement. Still doesn't change the other points there though.
@Lusall: Not saying its ' unfair' to quit an army over fluff, I just said I'd find it strange if someone quite over something like gender (which I feel to be superfluous)
Also 'no female space marines' would not generate a strong counter reaction, not from the Warhammer fanbase at all, it's not such a fanbase. The counter-claim 'there are female Space Marines' would cause a storm though. Just read /tg/. Other than that I find it surprising that you think Space Marines were created then for some sort of 'idealistic' reason rather than simple economics. Clearly I'm too jaded.
Well, without being a jerk I'll simply accept that last statement for what it's worth. I really think you are, and I don't mean that to be rude. I really doubt that they created space marines "male only" as a slight to feminism and women or even for just economic reasons. I'd bet 10 bucks (because that's what I have on me) that wasn't the case. On the other hand, Sisters of Battle were created/introduced because people mentioned that there were no female space marines. Or that they wanted those old female rogue trader marines back.
Also, the claim that they're "not considered heretical isn't entirely accurate. The 13th company of Wulfen is not officially sanctioned by the Imperium. They've only reappeared relatively recently (during the 13th Black Crusade) and given how close the Dark Angels have come to nuking the Space Wolves since then, I can only imagine what will happen once a puritanical Inquisitor Lord gets wind of them...
Still sour about that. I hated the fluff in Wulfen. They're making the Dark Angels out to be puppets of Chaos and the way it's written makes the Dark Angels out to be dolts. And I was a fan of the EoT campaign back in the early ought's. Not sure why they feel the need to change it.
@Lusall: You really aren't being rude, so don't worry about it. I still disagree with what you're saying, but I don't think you're being rude at all.
Also I never said Space Marines were created as a slight against women. I'm not sure where you got that idea, I said they were created, like all armies, by economic factors primarily (not solely). Part of those economic factors was the appeal to the certain target male audience who would dislike the presence of females among their traditionally masculine 'male-archetype' warriors.
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
Well given the Lore states they aren't allowed 'men under arms' I can see an inventive way around that, maybe with one of those big chainsaw wotsits the priests have
The Fraterus Militia or something along those lines. There's your ill-equipped and untrained military branch of the Adeptus Ministorum. They also go by Redemptionists. Due to the Decree Passive, they will not be receiving power armour like the SoB anytime soon
On the flip side, one can make their own formation following the same rules and fluff. As we have had rebellions and schisms a'plenty they could arise during the time (or indeed be part of a rebellious faction during that time period).
Even better, one could make chaos nuns.
The Sororitas don't go Chaos. They are like the World Eaters are to Khorne or the Death Guard to Nurgle, they don't turn their back on the Emperor.
Another thought- Women SPazz Marinse could be an adeptus experiment. They don't even have to be marines, just gals in very advanced power armor that have the same stats. They could even be a new heavy unit of the Nuns with Guns. Nuns with Guns 2.0 with their prayers accounting for any special powers the marines may have, or alternatively special drugs like assassins have. They don't have Spazz Marise Jeans but they're armor, prayers, and combat drugs make up for it. PLus - unlike marines- they won't rebel. An alternative is the above but substitute nuns with Guns 2.0 make it a heavy combat unit from planet Chola Maxima. Tradition limits this combat group to women just because.
Now what I can see, is Nun-turians (Your basic SoB in teddy bear armour). But we'll have to see what GW throws out to the masses.
Anemone wrote: I'm not sure where you got that idea, I said they were created, like all armies, by economic factors primarily (not solely). Part of those economic factors was the appeal to the certain target male audience who would dislike the presence of females among their traditionally masculine 'male-archetype' warriors.
Considering that the concept of Space Marines was likely developed in the 1980's, they were probably made the way they are to capitalize on the popularity of the macho, alpha-male, lone-warrior soldier type feel from movies such as Diehard, Terminator, Rambo, Predator, etc.
And if you look at it that way, the stoic, badass, lone-warrior space marines (in generic concept not accounting for variations displayed by the specific chapters) really just become another vector of sale for the awesome, explosion-ridden, badass macho male-targeted movies of that era and, to a lesser extent, the current one (which now includes the lone savior/survivor achetype popular in a lot of FPS video games).
I don't even really think it was necessarily intentional exclusion of women for the people who would dislike them in their army. I think it was a kind of marketing "rule of cool" and standing traditions - because it was the 1980's. Women have only been allowed into the military front lines rather recently, so it is logical to assume that the thought process was likely something like wargaming = war = traditional army structure = only men (except women nurses and such if necessary). And the stigma against "girl gamers" is still alive and kicking even today, so 1980's GW likely only thought of marketing towards men because it was a foregone conclusion that women did not or would not like wargaming - hence marketing towards them being assume a waste of time.
As to why no one decided to change the original portrayal of space marInes yet? They still sell and are the most popular army (whether that is a self-perpetuated cycle is just our best guess), so the tradition is still serving GW pretty well as much as people talk this topic around in circles. And the thought most people have is "if it's not broken, why fix it?" Although, arguably, with X-wing unseat in 40k as the most popular tabletop wargame, we might be desending into the broken territory soon.
Edit: TLDR - space marines were likely born of the Rambo-type lone-war-hero idea. Tradition also dictated that women were not part of the concept of "army" until recently. And space marInes still sell well, so GW likely thinks "it's not broken, why fix it?"
Anemone wrote: I'm not sure where you got that idea, I said they were created, like all armies, by economic factors primarily (not solely). Part of those economic factors was the appeal to the certain target male audience who would dislike the presence of females among their traditionally masculine 'male-archetype' warriors.
Considering that the concept of Space Marines was likely developed in the 1980's, they were probably made the way they are to capitalize on the popularity of the macho, alpha-male, lone-warrior soldier type feel from movies such as Diehard, Terminator, Rambo, Predator, etc.
And if you look at it that way, the stoic, badass, lone-warrior space marines (in generic concept not accounting for variations displayed by the specific chapters) really just become another vector of sale for the awesome, explosion-ridden, badass macho male-targeted movies of that era and, to a lesser extent, the current one (which now includes the lone savior/survivor achetype popular in a lot of FPS video games).
I don't even really think it was necessarily intentional exclusion of women for the people who would dislike them in their army. I think it was a kind of marketing "rule of cool" and standing traditions - because it was the 1980's. Women have only been allowed into the military front lines rather recently, so it is logical to assume that the thought process was likely something like wargaming = war = traditional army structure = only men (except women nurses and such if necessary). And the stigma against "girl gamers" is still alive and kicking even today, so 1980's GW likely only thought of marketing towards men because it was a foregone conclusion that women did not or would not like wargaming - hence marketing towards them being assume a waste of time.
As to why no one decided to change the original portrayal of space marInes yet? They still sell and are the most popular army (whether that is a self-perpetuated cycle is just our best guess), so the tradition is still serving GW pretty well as much as people talk this topic around in circles. And the thought most people have is "if it's not broken, why fix it?" Although, arguably, with X-wing unseat in 40k as the most popular tabletop wargame, we might be desending into the broken territory soon.
Edit: TLDR - space marines were likely born of the Rambo-type lone-war-hero idea. Tradition also dictated that women were not part of the concept of "army" until recently. And space marInes still sell well, so GW likely thinks "it's not broken, why fix it?"
Again...the idea that it was all economic or even largely so is just odd to me. Believe it or not, there was a time when GW wasn't ruled by the whims of the quarterly earning statement. Indeed, there was a glorious time when nerds with bad haircuts and a wicked coke addiction just wrote cool stories and made tubular, gnarly models. Did the "macho man" of Mad Max and Rambo play a role? Yeah, no doubt. But it wasn't really economic in nature.
Lusall wrote: Again...the idea that it was all economic or even largely so is just odd to me. Believe it or not, there was a time when GW wasn't ruled by the whims of the quarterly earning statement. Indeed, there was a glorious time when nerds with bad haircuts and a wicked coke addiction just wrote cool stories and made tubular, gnarly models. Did the "macho man" of Mad Max and Rambo play a role? Yeah, no doubt. But it wasn't really economic in nature.
Well, at this point, we are basically arguing the difference in my cynicism and your idealism.
Both "rule of cool" and marketing factors were clearly present. The amount to which they are entwined, directly or indirectly, is something we can only guess at. Well, unless you worked at GW during the 80's
Even the argument that current economic factors should make female space marines more likely to happen, is unsubstantiated and odd.
If there really was a big enough market for female space marines, then there would already be a 3rd party cottage industry dedicated to it, and painted, female space marines would show up all the time in project log and online galleries.
I honestly don't think most of us ever felt we ever needed to include female models in our armies, especially not so we could feel inclusive and pc and smug about them.
Most 40k factions were designed to make you feel more than a bit uncomfortable about them in the first place, and most games are total carnage anyway. Are we not supposed to be bothered by that? I'd rather let the violence and needless death get to me, than whether or not Space Marines is a boys club.
I'll believe what I might about GW's business practice, regardless what you might.
Isn't that just repeating 'if you want to believe that fine' which is what I literally said?
Exactly. If you want to use that argument, I'll do the same.
So, you ignore all the context of the setting and reasons to why gender matters in those armies, purely because you see it as cosmetic?
What? I simply see gender as cosmetic. And it is. The context is easily changed and, in my opinion, gender is as minor as a paint scheme and thus I don't feel opposed to differing genders and would not quite an army over differing genders the same way I don't mind people doing their own paint schemes and would be surprised if someone quit an army over paint scheme.
I mean we have a guy at my place who paints his Orks human-skin colour and it absolutely doesn't bother me at all. *shrugs* Same with gender of units.
Gender is assuredly NOT cosmetic in the 40k universe, especially with Sisters and Space Marines: Sisters in that the Decree Passive simply DISALLOWS men from joining, and Space Marines in that women have never been shown to be Astartes-material, so one may assume they are barred by gender. That's not cosmetic - that's context.
I repeat - if you want to change context, then why are you arguing in Dakka BACKGROUND when you want to disregard the actual background and just say "it doesn't matter because it can be changed".
I also ask if the portrayal of Vostroyans going from Russian themed to Celtic themed would be a reason to quit an army. If you may, please respond to that part of question.
And I have only mentioned some fluff points. I don't think I ever insinuated that ALL fluff points were accurate, according to me.
But now you're expecting me to be telepathic. You just said 'the fluff points' and so I went back and looked through the fluff points I thought you were referring to.
Correct. But seeing as Space Marines are not genetic clones of their Primarchs, that's not fluff. That's a headcanon, and therefore not under my inclusion.
The Imperium, on standard of living (for the majority of citizens)
Orks, on technological control.
Tyranids, seeing as they have no electrical tech.
And yes - for their age as a race, the Tau advanced in tech VERY quickly.
That's a lot of provisos on your earlier claim which pretty much invalidates it. Also actually kind of weird that the faction who keep in official fluff being described as 'advanced' are actually the lowest-tech nation in the game.
I'm sorry? Which claim was this? I don't understand this point?
Counter-argument: what's wrong with keeping it the same?
It gets boring? More importantly though, how do we decide when to freeze it then? What's the point at which fluff can no longer change?
So we change it for the sake of it? Why don't we just retcon the whole setting and restart from the ground up, because yanno - "It gets boring."
Choosing what to add and freeze is hard, yes, but why do we need to retcon a very old part of Space Marine lore?
@Lusall: Not saying its ' unfair' to quit an army over fluff, I just said I'd find it strange if someone quite over something like gender (which I feel to be superfluous)
See my point above re CONTEXT.
Also 'no female space marines' would not generate a strong counter reaction, not from the Warhammer fanbase at all, it's not such a fanbase. The counter-claim 'there are female Space Marines' would cause a storm though. Just read /tg/. Other than that I find it surprising that you think Space Marines were created then for some sort of 'idealistic' reason rather than simple economics. Clearly I'm too jaded.
No offence, but it looks that way. /tg/, like Dakka doesn't represent the player base. I think they took inspiration from media at the time (macho-men films) and the idea of knights and monks, and gave them guns and power armour. The Sisters followed because people asked for women in power armour.
house, the muscle growth either halts or if the frame isn't strong enough, rips the person apart. And the process turns you sterile and all together -not- human to begin with so...not really sure you'd be male or female any way.
But I'll say again...
