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All Astartes are genetic clones of their Primarch who are genetic clones of the Emperor. A female Spacd Marine cannot exist (and should not exist if you ask me).
Edit: this is on top of the fact that the process in which to create an Astartes is basically Voodoo magic at the current point in the fluff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 16:08:53
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
JNAProductions wrote: Are there any? And I mean actual Space Marines, not just the Bolter B****es Sisters of Battle.
No, there are no female Space Marines. The process that creates a Space Marine does not work on women.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
You know, the more this subject gets talked about (or I talk about it), the more I understand why we nerds/geeks were best left out of the mainstream.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 17:24:12
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
The fluff states:
1: Astartes are genetic clones of the Emperor, who was a man
2: Making Space Marines is almost magic
3: The science used to make new gene seeds, as in not from the original Legions, is lost.
4: Tampering with the Emperor's holy design is heresy
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
The fluff states:
1: Astartes are genetic clones of the Emperor, who was a man
2: Making Space Marines is almost magic
3: The science used to make new gene seeds, as in not from the original Legions, is lost.
4: Tampering with the Emperor's holy design is heresy
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
You know, the more this subject gets talked about (or I talk about it), the more I understand why we nerds/geeks were best left out of the mainstream.
But why's it a big deal for Marines to not be male only? That argument runs both ways automatically. You're not giving any compelling reasoning for why Marines should be male only, you're just saying 'why can't they be male only?' to which I imagine the appropriate response is simply; 'why can't the be mixed gendered?'
Also, for the record, I should add that I am not particularly invested one way or another. That there exists an all male faction doesn't particularly bother me at all and I've never felt a particular desire for it to change.
However, the fact is that there simply is no reason beyond the obvious; "The main market for Space Marines don't want girls in their team" which actually excludes the possibility of Female Space Marines. There are no female Space Marines because there isn't a big enough market for them and, instead, there are actually a lot of people who'd be rabidly opposed to the possibility of such a thing.
I think its a pity that such people exist but, then again, its low down on my list of things I believe are a pity in this online fandom.
@Tactical_Spam: Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic, hence why there's really no objective basis for why females can't be Space Marines. The answer is simply that the 'magic' doesn't work on them. Again, to me, that doesn't really matter since I don't much care for the issue.
Honestly I still am just flabbergasted at the idea that someone would stop playing with Eldar or Tau simply because they can't tell the gender apart. I mean, in all honesty, I can't imagine someone would stop playing Space Marines just because beneath the armour some of them might be us 'icky' girls, right?
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
You know, the more this subject gets talked about (or I talk about it), the more I understand why we nerds/geeks were best left out of the mainstream.
But why's it a big deal for Marines to not be male only? That argument runs both ways automatically. You're not giving any compelling reasoning for why Marines should be male only, you're just saying 'why can't they be male only?' to which I imagine the appropriate response is simply; 'why can't the be mixed gendered?'
Also, for the record, I should add that I am not particularly invested one way or another. That there exists an all male faction doesn't particularly bother me at all and I've never felt a particular desire for it to change.
However, the fact is that there simply is no reason beyond the obvious; "The main market for Space Marines don't want girls in their team" which actually excludes the possibility of Female Space Marines. There are no female Space Marines because there isn't a big enough market for them and, instead, there are actually a lot of people who'd be rabidly opposed to the possibility of such a thing.
I think its a pity that such people exist but, then again, its low down on my list of things I believe are a pity in this online fandom.
@Tactical_Spam: Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic, hence why there's really no objective basis for why females can't be Space Marines. The answer is simply that the 'magic' doesn't work on them. Again, to me, that doesn't really matter since I don't much care for the issue.
Honestly I still am just flabbergasted at the idea that someone would stop playing with Eldar or Tau simply because they can't tell the gender apart. I mean, in all honesty, I can't imagine someone would stop playing Space Marines just because beneath the armour some of them might be us 'icky' girls, right?
I'm going to say it again as politely, but as boldly as possible: They are genetic clones of the Emperor
There is no issue with Female Space Marines if they were possible, but they are not possible. I have no issue with female Spartans in the Halo Franchise, so this white knighting of an argument that's been done to death falls right through.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 19:07:32
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Except they clearly are not exact clones of the emperor-otherwise, wouldn't they all be massively powerful psykers and in general be about 10,000 times more badass?
So why can't the voodoo magic of Space Marineification work on ladies?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
If Space Marines were a mix-gendered group you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were female yes...but you wouldn't be able to tell which one's were male either. So what would it matter? Why not produce female space marines just because 'you wouldn't know which ones were male or female'? The Tau already are in a situation where any of them in armour or battlesuits could be male or female 'you wouldn't know' but what does that matter? Just imagine they are what you want them to be or don't care, why should this in anyway be an argument against their being female ones?
But that's the point. Look at modern soldiers. Men and women...you can't really tell them apart when in gear. I get your point, but in general the idea of a soldier is "masculine". The silhouette, anyway. I'm sure I'm not getting my point across in a way that makes sense. And that's well, because like I say...if you want female Space Marines in your 40K, I sure as don't care. But as for the fluff proper, I don't see why it's such a big deal for Marines to be male only.
You know, the more this subject gets talked about (or I talk about it), the more I understand why we nerds/geeks were best left out of the mainstream.
But why's it a big deal for Marines to not be male only? That argument runs both ways automatically. You're not giving any compelling reasoning for why Marines should be male only, you're just saying 'why can't they be male only?' to which I imagine the appropriate response is simply; 'why can't the be mixed gendered?'
Also, for the record, I should add that I am not particularly invested one way or another. That there exists an all male faction doesn't particularly bother me at all and I've never felt a particular desire for it to change.
However, the fact is that there simply is no reason beyond the obvious; "The main market for Space Marines don't want girls in their team" which actually excludes the possibility of Female Space Marines. There are no female Space Marines because there isn't a big enough market for them and, instead, there are actually a lot of people who'd be rabidly opposed to the possibility of such a thing.
I think its a pity that such people exist but, then again, its low down on my list of things I believe are a pity in this online fandom.
@Tactical_Spam: Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic, hence why there's really no objective basis for why females can't be Space Marines. The answer is simply that the 'magic' doesn't work on them. Again, to me, that doesn't really matter since I don't much care for the issue.
Honestly I still am just flabbergasted at the idea that someone would stop playing with Eldar or Tau simply because they can't tell the gender apart. I mean, in all honesty, I can't imagine someone would stop playing Space Marines just because beneath the armour some of them might be us 'icky' girls, right?
Well there's precedence for their being female Tau/Guardsmen/Eldar/Dark Eldar etc. in the fluff. There is none for male Banshees or female space marines. I imagine that was by design. Indeed, I'm sure the SoB were created because someone went "Hey, how about female space marines?"
But yeah, I think we're in agreement that it's silly for people to blow a gasket over it. 40K is a lot like DnD, or Burger King. You can have it your way, even if your way infuriates (for some reason) someone else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 19:18:21
Whoever is interested in female Space Marines has Sisters of Battle. Or can easily make up a Chaos warband of female CSM, dark mechanicum could easily do it I guess.
Yes, it sucks that fluffwise 100% of SM are male and as it seems 95% are also white. It tells us sth. about the British society in the 80s and if they should ever make popular movies about the Horus Heresy I wouldn't be surprised if that was the first thing that'd change.
Anemone wrote: But why's it a big deal for Marines to not be male only? That argument runs both ways automatically. You're not giving any compelling reasoning for why Marines should be male only, you're just saying 'why can't they be male only?' to which I imagine the appropriate response is simply; 'why can't the be mixed gendered?'
Mrs. Esterhouse wrote:There's no women space marines...Well, you see...They don't...Because...The reason is...
Oh nevermind
Have you disregarded all fluff points people have said?
If so, may I reiterate and throw my own spin on:
1. The process of creating Space Marines has, to date, been only done on males.
2. The process itself is barely understood by anyone barring the Emperor - the closest we could get alive is MAYBE Fabius Bile (and even if he did know, that only benefits Chaos, not regular Space Marines)
3. The Emperor, by design or by even his own limitations, made ALL Space Marines male. Now, he may have been sexist himself, unable to bond gene-seed to female bodies (perhaps due to the lack of a Y chromosome which gene-seed might require to bond with), or any other reason.
4. The Imperium, due to their dogmatic adherence to tradition (seen throughout their hierarchy), have probably not even strayed from the Emperor's design, or if they have attempted to, have been purged for HERESY! or simply failed due to their failure to understand gene-seed.
5. Constant reference of Space Marines as the Emperor's "Sons", "Children", "Grandsons" would probably affect Imperial perception of Space Marines all being male.
5. And if it is a case of voodoo magic of not being able to make female Space Marines, that is because the writers said so, just like how Eldar are a dying race, or how Orks have a gestalt field, or why Chaos isn't ruling the galaxy, or etc etc - just like any other rule of canon. That is what it is.
6.Every other faction (which have recognised gender difference) should have mixed representation in all aspects, EXCLUDING Space Marines (of all variants) and Sisters of Battle, because the fluff explains why they are mono-gender. And no, making them mixed doesn't mean boob-plate. It means that Necrons shouldn't have boob-plate. They are automata. Tau don't need anything massively more than the Y-slit on their head. Really, this applies to Eldar and Guardsmen (and Scions, Inquisition, genestealer cultist and regular cultists, if you want to go obscure)
7. I do not have an issue with female super soldiers. Halo, Destiny and Overwatch all work for me. I have an issue with female Space Marines in the same way one might object to male Sisters of Battle (Brothers of Battle?): they are not supported by lore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 20:02:12
'Cause I'm not a 1980s schoolboy furtively appreciating the female form, stabby-nips and all.
My point was meant to be that "RT had them!" is sadly untrue and misguided.
Stabby boobs, makes sisters of battle new models tame I comparison
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Meh.. all my space marines are women, they just shave their heads and have the gene-seed scars. They work out a lot and wear power armor so it's hard to tell, but they are women. Too bad chemical castration is a part of the process of becoming a space marine, would be really nice to breed more stable iterations of marine.
pumaman1 wrote: Meh.. all my space marines are women, they just shave their heads and have the gene-seed scars. They work out a lot and wear power armor so it's hard to tell, but they are women. Too bad chemical castration is a part of the process of becoming a space marine, would be really nice to breed more stable iterations of marine.
That is the single most heresy I've ever seen in a post.
Also, I'd refrain from mentioning "breeding" and "female Space Marines" in the same sentence lest you summon Swastakowey
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
@Tactical_Spam: They aren't genetic clones. Otherwise how could they be from various different genetic makeups? They have an aspect of his genetic structure implanted into them, that doesn't make them clones.
Like...at all. That's not what a clone is.
@Lusall: Actually there are male Howling Banshees. We are told they don the same feminine armour and adopt feminine war masks (as in the persona) but they are male.
Really its just funny to me someone quitting an army because he can't tell the gender of some of his/her troops.
Is it that important?
*Shrugs* As I said though it isn't a particularly pertinent issue to me. An all male army is fine the same way an all female army is fine.
Acting as if the reasoning for it is anything more than just a decision by the creators to appeal to a certain fanbase is what I don't understand.
@Sgt_Smudge: The Fluff points that they are genetic clones of the Emperor? Or the ones that the process of becoming a Space Marine is practically vodoo magic?
Because if the latter you'd note, if you read, my above posts that I said the fact that Space Marine transformations is pretty much equivalent to magic means that arguing for the mono-gendered nature of Space Marines as being anything more than author fiat is silly.
But I never said it wasn't author fiat, nor did I dispute that it was canonical. I have no idea why you're suggesting that.
Personally I'd see equally no problem with a male ecclesiarchy force *shrugs* it wouldn't reduce SoB's for me anymore than female Space Marines would, I don't see why so many people get so bothered by it, its just gender, why is it important that there is only one? Or two?
Kudos for being willing to acknowledge the Emperor was sexist, I'm honestly surprised someone on this site is wiling to contemplate such a thing.
If someone wants to run the "Emperor's Chickas" I say more power to 'em. I don't care about their personal chapter's fluff regardless. As long as they don't try to bore me with it, it doesn't matter. Their chapter fluff could be about giant mutated fluffy bunny spazz marinse for all I care. Their minis, they can do what they want as long as it WYSIWYG.
Troy wrote: If someone wants to run the "Emperor's Chickas" I say more power to 'em. I don't care about their personal chapter's fluff regardless. As long as they don't try to bore me with it, it doesn't matter. Their chapter fluff could be about giant mutated fluffy bunny spazz marinse for all I care. Their minis, they can do what they want as long as it WYSIWYG.
This actually makes me genuinely happy to hear.
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
Challenge accepted.
Yeah, it'd also make an interesting narrative point; the ecclesiarchy trying to set up armies again, potential for fluff-justified conflicts with other Imperium forces as well what with the 'no men under arms' and all that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 21:52:56
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
The fluff says that's a no no, just like Female Space Marines.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Anemone wrote: @Lusall: Actually there are male Howling Banshees. We are told they don the same feminine armour and adopt feminine war masks (as in the persona) but they are male.
Really its just funny to me someone quitting an army because he can't tell the gender of some of his/her troops.
Is it that important?
*Shrugs* As I said though it isn't a particularly pertinent issue to me. An all male army is fine the same way an all female army is fine.
Acting as if the reasoning for it is anything more than just a decision by the creators to appeal to a certain fanbase is what I don't understand.
Or maybe the creators just wanted to create what they wanted, not necessarily for a fanbase, so to speak? The trope of most Space Marine players being childish teens and creating "No gurlz allowed" rules is frankly overdone, IMHO.
As for quitting an army, if the army's lore changes (which it would have to, to support female SMs), is that not a reason to quit them? Say Tyranids go through a phase wherein their entire shtick about being a biological army needing to feed is scrapped and they become MLP cavalry and beasts with exo-suits? Would you chastise Tyranid players if they quit that?
@Sgt_Smudge: The Fluff points that they are genetic clones of the Emperor? Or the ones that the process of becoming a Space Marine is practically vodoo magic?
Because if the latter you'd note, if you read, my above posts that I said the fact that Space Marine transformations is pretty much equivalent to magic means that arguing for the mono-gendered nature of Space Marines as being anything more than author fiat is silly.
But I never said it wasn't author fiat, nor did I dispute that it was canonical. I have no idea why you're suggesting that.
Personally I'd see equally no problem with a male ecclesiarchy force *shrugs* it wouldn't reduce SoB's for me anymore than female Space Marines would, I don't see why so many people get so bothered by it, its just gender, why is it important that there is only one? Or two?
Kudos for being willing to acknowledge the Emperor was sexist, I'm honestly surprised someone on this site is wiling to contemplate such a thing.
Okay, where have I mentioned they are genetic clones of the Emperor? And the voodoo magic quote is from yourself, saying to Tactical_Spam "Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic". I'm using your statement.
And yes, it's all up to the author: like ALL CANON. Much as in the same way the Imperium has a rotting corpse for an Emperor, orks are warlike, and the leader of the main heresy in M31 was Horus. That is all because the author wrote it.
Hell, why not ask:
Why is Horus called Horus and not *insert name here*?
Why are orks warlike?
Why is the Tau Empire so technologically advanced?
Why... etc etc.
It is what the author wrote, and is therefore canon. This is no different to any other work of fiction. In this case, the author has provided us with points to speculate as to WHY there are no female SMs, but has not said. Whether that is deliberate or purely out of laziness, we don't know.
I don't understand your other point. I'm just making the canon argument we have, because this is 40k Background, and lore arguments are meant to be used. I provided some, not necessarily as argument, but as proposition.
A male Ecclesiarchy doesn't work with current lore, due to the Decree Passive. I'd oppose male SOB just as intensely as female SMs. The lore sets them as mono-gender, and mono-gender they will be to me, unless someone changes the lore. But why change the lore? Is there a need to? I am bothered by it like any other aspect of lore - I see diplomatic Tyranids? Nope. I see Space Marines who have perfected everything, cured the Red Thirst, descended from every Primarch, super powerful but with a DARK SEEECRET SHUSHHH and liked by everyone? Hell nope. It's not female Space Marines I have an issue with. It's running counter to lore which I hesitate at.
Want your Space Marines to be female? Cool. But I won't believe that myself for a second.
And yes, of course one can consider the Emperor being sexist. As an individual, it's a perfectly feasible thing. However, seeing a lack of evidence (overtly presented) to support this, I don't really support it too strongly. For every argument he didn't make female SMs because of sexism, another perfectly good one states that maybe it was just physically impossible, even for him.
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
Well given the Lore states they aren't allowed 'men under arms' I can see an inventive way around that, maybe with one of those big chainsaw wotsits the priests have
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
Or maybe the creators just wanted to create what they wanted, not necessarily for a fanbase, so to speak? The trope of most Space Marine players being childish teens and creating "No gurlz allowed" rules is frankly overdone, IMHO.
You're argument here is that the company just made Space Marines because its what they really liked and not in order to be commercially successful by altering it to be profitable over time?
I mean. If you want to believe that fine. Its very nice and idealistic.
As for quitting an army, if the army's lore changes (which it would have to, to support female SMs), is that not a reason to quit them? Say Tyranids go through a phase wherein their entire shtick about being a biological army needing to feed is scrapped and they become MLP cavalry and beasts with exo-suits? Would you chastise Tyranid players if they quit that?
I wouldn't have considered the presence of mixed-gendered Space Marines anywhere near the level of the change you've hypothetically suggested for the 'nids. Clearly we place gender on two very different levels of importance. To me it'd be an inconsequential change, like when the Tyranid's main paint scheme went from Kraken to Leviathen. Yeah, I'd have found it weird if someone quit Tyranid because of something as minor as a paint scheme, which is what I see gender as.
Okay, where have I mentioned they are genetic clones of the Emperor? And the voodoo magic quote is from yourself, saying to Tactical_Spam "Indeed it is almost like vodoo magic". I'm using your statement.
Didn't you say the 'fluff points that have been made in this thread?' I presumed you weren't referring to just your own fluff points so I mentioned ones others made too. If we're going to discuss 'fluff points' I thought it best to be inclusive. What's wrong with that?
Hell, why not ask:
Why is Horus called Horus and not *insert name here*?
Why are orks warlike?
Are you presuming I'd have a problem with these questions? Cause I really wouldn't?
Why is the Tau Empire so technologically advanced?
What? Compared to who?
A male Ecclesiarchy doesn't work with current lore, due to the Decree Passive. I'd oppose male SOB just as intensely as female SMs. The lore sets them as mono-gender, and mono-gender they will be to me, unless someone changes the lore. But why change the lore? Is there a need to? I am bothered by it like any other aspect of lore - I see diplomatic Tyranids? Nope. I see Space Marines who have perfected everything, cured the Red Thirst, descended from every Primarch, super powerful but with a DARK SEEECRET SHUSHHH and liked by everyone? Hell nope. It's not female Space Marines I have an issue with. It's running counter to lore which I hesitate at.
Whats wrong with lore changing? Honestly I understand disliking bad changes to lore, and I don't dispute they exist, but I definitely don't believe lore should never change at all. If the lore changed to allow female Space Marines and male Sisters of Battle I'd imagine, and hope, it wouldn't be considered a very big deal by players (in universe would be a different matter).
Want your Space Marines to be female? Cool. But I won't believe that myself for a second.
Your belief isn't really necessary.
And yes, of course one can consider the Emperor being sexist. As an individual, it's a perfectly feasible thing. However, seeing a lack of evidence (overtly presented) to support this, I don't really support it too strongly. For every argument he didn't make female SMs because of sexism, another perfectly good one states that maybe it was just physically impossible, even for him.
You do realize that the Emperor being sexist doesn't just ride on the Space Marines right? There's a lot more to him than that.
fallinq wrote: Just once I'd like to see a thread on how we need male Sisters of Battle.
Just to mix things up.
Well given the Lore states they aren't allowed 'men under arms' I can see an inventive way around that, maybe with one of those big chainsaw wotsits the priests have
The Fraterus Militia or something along those lines. There's your ill-equipped and untrained military branch of the Adeptus Ministorum. They also go by Redemptionists. Due to the Decree Passive, they will not be receiving power armour like the SoB anytime soon
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Gene seed mutates and changes all the time, both in-universe and in real life. Things get retconned or 'revealed,' and suddenly this chapter turns into spider-monsters for no apparent reason. Chapter X can see the future, Chapter Y grows giant bone spurs and might be able to breathe fire. Introducing a mutation in the fluff that allows gene seed to correctly bond with an organism without a Y chromosome seems totally within the bounds of reasonability, given the spectrum of 'reasonability' we have in 40k.
We aren't ever told that the Emperor specifically wanted a he-man woman haters club when he made the Primarchs. The only justification there is in the lore is that the gene seed doesn't work with genetically female individuals, so there's no huge fluff retcon required.
Further, being male is in no way a part of the core characterization of the Space Marines. If anything, gender is virtually irrelevant to them. Space Marines are ascetic warrior-monks who engage in a sci-fi version of heraldric warrior traditions. Nothing about that requires them to be male, and making them female doesn't change it.
Introducing male sisters would actually require more work, since you'd have to retcon the background behind their creation.
Further, the Sisters of Battle are the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, which in fact does field male soldiers (in the form of priest retinues). There are no such female equivalents accompanying Space Marine leaders into battle.
TL;dr: in the case of the Sisters the gender imbalance is an integral part of their fluff. In the case of Space Marines the gender imbalance is only part of their fluff to justify the gender exclusion that existed for years before it was questioned.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/12 22:16:02
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