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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
So how close to a proper, persistent random dungeon crawl did this end up being?
Weren't some bits like the town phase restricted to KS backers?
I'm thinking if it is a proper, co-op OG Warhammer Quest I might need to hunt it down once the wife and I exhaust Mansions of Madness 2nd Ed.
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Post by: Aeneades
They released a full town expansion -
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/183017/shadows-brimstone-frontier-town-expansion
The only Kickstarter exclusive item was one character class (and I think it may have only been the actual miniature that was exclusive).
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Neat. So assuming I hunt it all down, is it one of those enormous, random dungeon crawls a group can enjoy forever, ala OG Warhammer Quest?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Neat. So assuming I hunt it all down, is it one of those enormous, random dungeon crawls a group can enjoy forever, ala OG Warhammer Quest?
YES! Very much so.
I'll be backing this from the instant it goes live. SoB is amazing 
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
What are the best bang-for-buck purchases to initially make? I see Amazon legitimately has 15 expansions of various sizes, and many are almost out of stock.
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Post by: 455_PWR
Best bang for the buck would be both core sets and all three big box expansions (cinders, trederra, frontier town). Then I'd add in the resin character classes from ffg's website (they commonly go on sale for $8-$16 each, with their class rules and card).
This gives you the mine tiles, swamp tiles, arctic tiles, cinders tiles, trench tiles, and the town map (as well as extra enemies). The added characters give you more hero classes and more options.
Then it's just a matter of adding the monsters you like after that. They all play very differently and add different elements to the game.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
The town adds a lot if you want just one expansion. Plus there's bandits included as well as a board for the town missions themselves.
I like City of Ancients more than the Swamps. Maybe it's due to the ancient technology abandoned and crummy weather messing with your characters.
Regardless I'll be in from the moment this goes live.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Sure would be cool if they sold the tiles separately...
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Post by: ced1106
Here're the BGG entry for the game. Haven't played it yet, myself. Mini's are bleah, so I'm hoping the Reaper Bones IV KS will have proxies I can use.
Check out the fanmade HexCrawl in the files section for a campaign game!
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/146791/shadows-brimstone-city-ancients/forums/63
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Post by: endtransmission
The models in the initial boxes are a bit soft on detail, but what we have seen of the newer stuff, they are improving with each plastic release. The trederra models are looking nice.
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Post by: Grot 6
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:What are the best bang-for-buck purchases to initially make? I see Amazon legitimately has 15 expansions of various sizes, and many are almost out of stock.
Depends on your commitment to the game, honestly. To me, the best bang was to throw in for a minecart level pledge, and buy the rest of the expansions, figures. They are entirely great value, and the number of extras was pretty staggering.
My issues were that the project turned into a monty haul campaign, though. If you don't stay on top of it, the expansions and extras get a little overwhelming, and you can lose track of them.
Great game though. Honestly it is going to be pretty cool to add in a couple of Ninja's and Pirates to the crews...
A question I'd ask FF is to see if they would consider Monster crews, next... I could see a few of those aliens and Oriental Monsters getting in on some of that action, and gathering up some of that stone, and artifacts for their own evil schemes...
It would be cool to run two or three different crews in there, and have them fight it out, and even turning on each other and changing sides, halfway through. Take Good The Bad, and The Ugly to a whole new level.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Just ordered City of Ancients, Frontier Towns, and Masters of the Void as our "entry" into the series. My wife and I should love it.
So can someone explain how I go about adding expansions? Do I just combined EVERYTHING to create on giant pool of random enemies, locations, loot, etc?
Also, how are campaigns/missions/progression generated? Do I create a pool of missions based on everything I own, and they just randomly come up?
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Post by: endtransmission
Welcome to the Brimstone train! There is a separate thread in the Boardgames section that would be better for your questions, so this one can be kept for KS news
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Sure, and apologies if this was misplaced. That said, its probably valuable info in the hours leading to the new KS to help inform Dakka-users too. I definitely feel like i'll be going hard at this KS, especially as I regret now not getting the "Minecart" for the original. I doubt they'll do that one again as it apparently cost them a fortune, but it would be nice.
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Post by: ced1106
I think we have a few hours to kill... 
I would wait for a sale, since it's the holiday season. eBay, Miniature Market, Cardhaus, and Coolstuff Inc.
BGG has a Hot Deals forum : https://boardgamegeek.com/forum/10/boardgamegeek/hot-deals
The standalone sets work together, so would otherwise be the best price for the content. Play Lost City of the Ancients first.
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Post by: endtransmission
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Sure, and apologies if this was misplaced. That said, its probably valuable info in the hours leading to the new KS to help inform Dakka-users too. I definitely feel like i'll be going hard at this KS, especially as I regret now not getting the "Minecart" for the original. I doubt they'll do that one again as it apparently cost them a fortune, but it would be nice.
No worries, I just thought you might get more information on the originals in that thread 
I've only got the two starter boxes and two boxes of additional creatures (slugs and rats) as I'm waiting for my minecart to show up sometime next year ( UK shipping is January apparently). I will be backing the new one in the morning as it starts too late for me today. I'll be interested to see if they do a Minecart again, or if they learned their lesson last time around. I would expect something more like the Modiphius all-in pledges that appear nearer the end once they know how fast the campaign is running... but you never know.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well, assuming any kind of deal emerges, i'll be all over this KS "just in case". At this point in my hobbyist life I tend to be decent at spotting things I like, even just in writing. From my bits of reading and your help, it sounds like this game in ANY incarnation, plus Frontier Towns expansion, turns it into 99% of what I loved about the real Warhammer Quest.
Compatibility with the current product also ensures that the game system has a future, which likewise helps me feel confident buying in.
From all my homework it sounds like the only thing the game could've stood to benefit from is a random mission generator/selector of sorts, with a more formal way of stringing them together, so that is something i'll certainly keep an eye out for during this Kickstarter. From the sound of things they really should just license that fan's "Hex Crawl" for the amount of rave reviews it gets. :-p
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Post by: Nostromodamus
By the way, you don't necessarily NEED the Frontier Town expansion for between-game stuff, all that is in the main rules already. The expansion just, erm, "expands" on it...
The missions can be randomly generated via tables in the rulebook.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
I am a babbling mess right now, SO excited and everything looks awesome 
In at Shogun level before they even got the EBs up My fave characters so far are the Monk and Sumo. As for monsters I adore the Flesh Mites, and the Skin Crawlers and Phoenix are badass too, not to mention that Spider Queen!
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
The tile are is GORGEOUS.
I have to say, I grabbed early bird Shogun, but based on the visible stretch-goals, i'm not QUITE sure the value is over-the-top. Right now the regular pledge at $95 looks incredible, though.
That said, I ALWAYS play pet-classes in my action-rpgs, so the Daimyo looks like a must-have.
Before the end I guess we'll see what the totals are. Gender swap heroes aren't doing much for me as "added value" but to each their own. :-)
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Post by: ced1106
Looks like they're doing a western gender-swap, where they shove a female model into a male costume. I'm pretty sure there's a Japanese crowdfunded game with a "Male Saloon Boy" miniature right now.
Anyway, there really *were* female noble warriors, called the onna-bugeisha. They actually appeared *before* the existence of male samurai.
Long before the emergence of the renowned samurai class, Japanese fighters were highly trained to wield a sword and spear. Women learned to use naginata, kaiken, and the art of tantojutsu in battle. Such training ensured protection in communities that lacked male fighters. ...
In contrast to the katana used universally by their male samurai counterparts, the most popular weapon-of-choice of onna-bugeishas are the naginata, which is a versatile, conventional polearm with a curved blade at the tip. The weapon is mainly favoured for its length, which can compensate for the strength and body size advantage of male opponents.
The naginata has a niche between the katana and the yari, which is rather effective in close quarter melee when the opponent is kept at bay, and is also relatively efficient against cavalry. Through its use by many legendary samurai women, the naginata has been propelled as the iconic image of a woman warrior. During the Edo Period, many schools focusing on the use of the naginata were created and perpetuated its association with women.
Besides naginata, ranged weaponry such as bows and arrows would also be used by onna-bugeishas, as the traditional masculine advantages like physical strength counted much less in ranged warfare.[6]
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Onna-bugeisha
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Always the Kitsune. Where's the Tanuki?
1/10 Will not back again.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Thunder warriors? You know what Jack Burton always says at a time like this...
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Feel better? Pledge restored? Automatically Appended Next Post: Napkin math through $500k stretch-goals suggest the Shogun tier is pretty bad.
With all add-ons, and even considering exclusives, it prices the X-pac at $115... which is WELL above MSRP.
Technically through currently shown goals, Shogun isn't even a value proposition on par with retail discounts, let alone a deal.
I'm in, and am sure value will increase, but it isn't terrific at the moment.
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Post by: Alpharius
I was thinking the same thing, actually.
Right now, and for much of the foreseeable future, the SHOGUN level isn't really 'worth' it, unless I'm missing something?
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Post by: ced1106
It's priced in anticipation of the SG's that will be unlocked. I think Dungeon Saga, or another popular KS, did this sort of thing.
In effect, you're pre-paying for the locked SG's. Although, since KS is not a store, you're pre-pledging for them.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Shogun will be worth it in the end. It evens out at around $400k, then it's gravy.
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Post by: Alpharius
I tried to do the math using the existing Stretch Goals but...I must have missed something?
I think they said the expansion is priced at $80?
Of course it doesn't take into account the 'discounted prices' that might (or might not!) be available via the Usual Suspects...?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Shame that there's no tiles option.
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Post by: ced1106
Where'd they say the expansion would be priced $80?
You probably did the math right. fwiw, Mini-expansions (that is, SG's), such as individual figures and card decks, cost much more per miniature or card deck than larger expansions and standalone games. So I'd take these SG prices with a grain of rice and compare the *content* not the listed price. That is, just because six flesh mites will be sold $20 retail, doesn't mean that you're getting much gameplay for your dollar when it's a $15 add-on, or part of the marginal cost you're paying at the Shogun level. fwiw, The mini-expansions for Shadows of Brimstone are mostly sold on the FFP website, and Shadows has *a lot* of these mini-expansions. Occasionally, FFP will have a sale and they currently have a Halloween Sale, but we're not talking OLGS discounts here. http://flyingfrogproductions.mybigcommerce.com/halloween-sale/
If you're just going to stick with the OLGS-available expansions, you're good at the $100 pledge level.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
In the comments.
As to the Shogun value I figure the Shogun-only heroes at about $10 a piece, the expansion is $80, then add the given totals for the other stuff, it evens out about $400k.
Napkin math for sure, but I don't see the Shogun level as terribly priced, especially considering this will end up at a much higher total than $400k.
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Post by: MLaw
How big are those skin crawlers? That reminds me of something I am going to be doing in a D&D game and if they're ginormous they are exactly what I am looking for..
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Post by: endtransmission
Given that it is only, what, 4-5 hours in and we're already over $300,000, the Shogun pledge level looks like it will be well worth it by the end.
Both pledge levels now have:
Female sumo, Male assassin, female Samurai, Fortress of the Fallen encounters pack
And the Shogun level also has:
Female Daiymo, Flesh mites, female soldier, Thunder Warriors, tongue demons, female enforcer
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Post by: Alpharius
Hard to say, actually, eventually.
You can get the two main boxes from the first KS on MM for $65 each.
Still, we'll see here - and I'm a huge fan of this game, so...I'm probably in for SHOGUN - for the long haul!
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Post by: endtransmission
I don't doubt you can get the released bits cheaper over time, but for me MM is out due to additional shipping and customs charges. I can only see this getting worse after the idiots finally break us away from the EU. Ahem. Anyway...
Speaking of shipping charges. It looks like they got burned on postage and packing time with KS1, so the core pledges ship prepacked from China, with any add-ons being shipped separately from the US. This means that anyone outside of the US backing this will be hit with 2 lots of shipping costs; one from within your region and one from the US+customs charges. To me, this makes Shogun even more acceptable as I recently got burned for £20 customs and handling on a £20 order from their webstore. I can only guess what it would be for a larger order!
And the male sorcerer is also unlocked, with 10k left until we hit the carrion phoenix. Can't wait to see where this is at after my meeting later!
Speak of the devil... Carrion Phoenix is also unlocked.
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Post by: Taarnak
So have they said if upgrading to Shogun via PM will be allowed?
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Post by: Monkeysloth
 Taarnak wrote:So have they said if upgrading to Shogun via PM will be allowed?
They haven't 100% decided but right now are in the no camp for allowing that. They said the reasons are for being able to place orders with the factory quicker.
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Post by: Aeneades
We are now passed $400k so the riflemen have been unlocked.
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Post by: Alpharius
Taarnak wrote:So have they said if upgrading to Shogun via PM will be allowed?
Monkeysloth wrote: Taarnak wrote:So have they said if upgrading to Shogun via PM will be allowed?
They haven't 100% decided but right now are in the no camp for allowing that. They said the reasons are for being able to place orders with the factory quicker.
If they're already waffling, it is a safe bet the answer will ultimately be 'No'.
And wasn't this an issue in the last campaign too, where they kinda/sorta said 'maybe' about being able to upgrade pledges in the PM phase, and then didn't allow it to happen?
Best to go "SHOGUN" now, if you're at all inclined to do so and can do so!
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Post by: Mymearan
Hm this theme appeals to me a lot more than the western/Cthulu thing in the original (never was a huge western fan and I'm a bit allergic to Cthulu after it started appearing in everything). Do you Think they will treat this game separately from the western one, with expansions to make it just as "complete" rules-wise etc?
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Post by: Alpharius
It already IS a complete 'stand alone' thing!
Shadows of Brimstone: Forbidden Fortress can be played on its own as a stand-alone game, or it can be used in combination with any and all of the other Shadows of Brimstone products already available! It is fully compatible, in every way! For new players, Forbidden Fortress will make a great introduction to the world of Shadows of Brimstone, and for veteran players, it adds a ton of new content, including two brand new Worlds to explore - the Japanese castles and temples of the Forbidden Fortress and a living world inside a massive creature in the Belly of the Beast. It also includes a brand new set of Heroes and Enemies to add to your games. With the option of starting your Heroes in Feudal Japan or the Old West, or having a mixed party of Heroes, drawn from both worlds, the possibilities are endless!
...and I would think that yes, it this one proves to be popular (and it looks like it already is!), then they'll absolutely support it with appropriately themed expansions.
Also, many (all?) of the already existing expansions would already be OK to use as 'alternate dimensions/otherworlds' right now too!
Swamps of Death, Caverns of Cinder and Trederra should work out just fine for this one.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Even the Old West Mines can be considered an "Otherworld" for your Japanese characters
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well, I guess it isn't AS complete unless it has the more fully developed town-phase automatically, right?
All of the games creating one giant sandbox of light RPG co-op Lovecraftian dungeon-crawly goodness has me insanely excited though.
Depending on how you value the gender-alts, we're either at, or near Shogun's break even point, so from here I just start counting the goodies as bonuses.
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Post by: Alpharius
Yeah, I think the stretches between $500K and $1MIL should make the SHOGUN pledge a much, much better deal...
...then we'll see that total really start to climb!
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Post by: Forar
 Alpharius wrote:And wasn't this an issue in the last campaign too, where they kinda/sorta said 'maybe' about being able to upgrade pledges in the PM phase, and then didn't allow it to happen?
As I recall, they allowed upgrading and purchasing of extra tiers in the PM, but it was limited based on whether you were an Outlaw or MC backer ( MC's were able to pick up slightly more I think?), and they didn't allow upgrading for some of the sub-core box tiers (I think the $1 in particular?). Or had even stricter limits on what they could get? It was 2 years ago.
There was some wailing and gnashing of teeth that a couple of people who dropped placeholder $1 pledges and then called foul that they couldn't use that $1 to get the benefits people who'd put $200-500 in for a year prior, one guy in particular was just obnoxious, but in the end it all sorted out.
As for the Shogun, yeah, it's not a massive savings, but we knew that'd be the case going in. FFP have admitted that the Outlaw and Mine Cart were *too good* a deal. Getting to ~$400 worth (to balance out against the usual 1/3'ish savings of CSI and a few other sites) might require a little wiggle room for now, but considering what the Outlaw exclusives went for on Ebay, it shouldn't be too hard to at least hit that, and then there's the benefits of getting some material before retail, or getting things without having to actually go to the secondary market, etc.
And as noted, we are less than 24 hours in. I think we'll hit 1 million, and at that point I won't be surprised if the Shogun is significantly spicier. It's not a 3 to 1 savings (or whatever the final math tallies to with the MC), but I think we'll be considerably ahead of the game, even compared to discounted retailers.
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Post by: Aeneades
Current stretch goal position -
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Post by: Alpharius
Isn't a bid odd that some $505K in, and with 19 stretch goals hit, that we haven't had a single Official Update yet?
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Post by: Forar
Yes.
But the first campaign didn't have an update until the day after it launched either. Yes, that was 3 years ago, and didn't explode nearly as much as this one has, but there's precedent.
I'm guessing we'll get one this afternoon/tonight (based on their time).
It is driving some backers in the comments crazy. As though the lack of a self-congratulatory "omg we funded yay!" update is somehow an affront to the very notion of Kickstarter.
Not saying that's going on here, I do admit it's a little odd, but at the same time, we're getting Stretch Goal updates on the main page just fine, so I don't see what we need to worry about at the moment either.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well, someone's clearly manning the KS as they update broken goal graphics relatively quickly.
Maybe they feel confident letting it play out through a million, as they seem to have an overt plan at least that far ahead.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
They're on the ball with updating the main page, that's all I care about. FFP like to do large updates at a slower rate.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm not upset or nervous - I just think it is a bit odd.
I mean, we're at $600K and still no Official Word on This Thing!
Odd, that's all!
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Well they just did an update, so hopefully that appeases some folks
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Post by: Alpharius
I know I'm happier now!
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Post by: Grot 6
The game looks solid, and the goals are going to hit.
Problem I have is going to be the two year wait to get the stuff.
I'm still in for the Minecart level for the first one, picked up a card expansion or two, and held fast at the 1.5.
My biggest issue with them that took some.... patience, was the ongoing expansions of new material while we have to wait over 2 years for the project that was pledged for. I'm used to it by now, but it is a strange way to run a project. I love the game, it takes some getting used to, and you have to be additionally patient while you figure out what works and doesn't work, but the idea of combining crews and adding in additional firepower from the expansions already on hand or coming soon is really going to be interesting. If I were to pledge for the game, I'd go all in for it. This deal doesn't last long, and the commitment is rewarded in the future from the FFP with additional content, deals, KS only expansion stuff, and the added fun of watching the game evolve. The wait honestly sucks, though.
Don't get too mad with them in some of their decisions, the project is a marathon, not a sprint. Biggest issue with the project will be shipping, I think. The game boxes are HUGE. If you get all of that stuff shown so far, you are going to need to make sure you lift with your legs. ( Seriously.)
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well its easier for the wife and I to get excited having just gotten started with the game. We can EASILY spend the next two years buying retail expansions of the first game, meaning we'll have tons of new content right up until this one inevitably ships.
Plus, I am assuming 2017 will still have further releases of content for the original game even while this is in development, as tons of the original KS doesn't exist in stores yet, as far as I can tell.
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Post by: endtransmission
It is interesting to note that some of the expansions from the first KS are not actually scheduled for retail release until 2018! Trederra for example has been listed as being either late 2017, or early 2018. I can only imagine things like the Vampire nest is going to be even later than that
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Post by: Necros
So, is this the same rules as SOB, but with the Japanese theme instead of western? Seems kinda like every release till now was for the western game, like they should have given this a different name. Or are both games compatible where you can use heroes or monsters from either and swap em around? Never got into SOB before, been meaning to check out the retail version. This new one looks good but the western theme appeals to me more.
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Post by: str00dles1
 Necros wrote:So, is this the same rules as SOB, but with the Japanese theme instead of western? Seems kinda like every release till now was for the western game, like they should have given this a different name. Or are both games compatible where you can use heroes or monsters from either and swap em around? Never got into SOB before, been meaning to check out the retail version. This new one looks good but the western theme appeals to me more.
Same game mechanics, you can swap all around
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Says right on the KS page that they're compatible.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Slight aside, and apologies as I know this thread has foot traffic. Has anyone tried ordering from FFG's webstore lately? I did two days ago without issue, but now at check-out Paypal keeps insisting that they're converting my currency from Brazillian Real(sp) to USD???
Called my CC company, and checked with Paypal, and no shady hacks or issues on my end.
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Post by: Forar
I've ordered from them a couple of times (once for a poster, once for some card packs) and never had any weirdness on my end like that.
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Post by: 455_PWR
I've ordered a lot around the Halloween sale (resin limited gunslinger piece, minis, etc). Only thing I noticed was it took a few more days than normal to ship... perfectly acceptable as I'm sure they had higher sales with the sale.
I've never had issues ordering from ffg.
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Post by: Aeneades
Belly of the beast feels a little short on enemy types at the moment (6 x Acidic Tentacles, 3x Skin Crawlers and 6 x Flesh Mites) so hopefully there will be another enemy type, mini boss or boss to give it a little more character. A few new additions since I last posted the stretch goal list - 
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Post by: B0B MaRlEy
I've got no funds to get in on this, but I'll be hunting for that male sumo figure at the very least, it's basically an accurate depiction of one of my RPG characters
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
 B0B MaRlEy wrote:I've got no funds to get in on this, but I'll be hunting for that male sumo figure at the very least, it's basically an accurate depiction of one of my RPG characters
That figure is going to be pretty pricey, given that its an exclusive and it doesnt look like there's an option to add on extras. Plus it's a year and a half at least away. Out of curiosity, what makes it a must have? Bushido makes several great ones and you could add a sword easily if needed.
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Post by: Motograter
Lot of complaints around facebook on this. First KS not being finished yet they are doing another. Price has been very talked about and some backers planning on backing out.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
 Motograter wrote:Lot of complaints around facebook on this. First KS not being finished yet they are doing another. Price has been very talked about and some backers planning on backing out.
First KS is coming to a close with everything remaining currently in production in china. FFP need to work on their next project rather than just sitting around idle. So many people fail to understand this for some reason.
Price is subjective, but I think it currently stands as good value and is getting better all the time.
And some backers threatening to leave? Oh noes! That never happens on kickstarter...
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Post by: Forar
Yeah, if people leave, they leave. That's their prerogative.
From what the Frogs have said, KS1 is at production. With a good chunk of December a writeoff for the holidays, what's the harm is slotting a campaign in now? Before fulfillment takes up a bunch of time/resources getting the oft lamented Wave 2 actually out to people.
Sure, the Sumo and Shogun levels aren't the 'omgwtfbbq' savings of the first campaign, but we knew that'd be the case. FFP have stated in a number of places that the Outlaw and Mine Cart tiers were underpriced, it would've been delusional to expect them to actively repeat a bad business decision.
Is it less than MSRP? Yes. Less than Retail? Yes. Do backers get things they can't easily get elsewhere (limited edition figures, card packs and such items that are often not found at retail)? Yes.
And with the initial surge of backers, we're already at a point where a good amount has been unlocked, and I'm sure there'll be more to come in the weeks ahead.
So... got on a bit of a rant there, but having seen some of those conversations pop up on the KS Comments, people are entitled to their opinions, but I think some of their opinions betray biases or expectations that aren't realistic. References to expecting equal or better 'deals' or 'value' to other campaigns while ignoring a lot of nuance and history present here.
Plus they're not charging for shipping in advance this time (and that's a good call to make), so we'd likely be well over 700k by now if they had been. But that kind of artificial inflation (not to mention Kickstarter taking a cut of that money) wouldn't have been wise.
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Post by: Grot 6
Considering that each and every one of these streach goals will be met, THIS is a great deal. You just fire and forget, the project will do the rest. I can say as well from the first one that they were hit pretty hard by the deal that they gave out on the first project. Forar is spot on with his assessment as well.
QFT
Problem the vocals have is the sense of entitlement that comes with spending money on a project. Personally... I don't give the peanut gallery much credence, they get pretty savage, and are more then their fair share of just background noise.
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Post by: Mutter
I'm in for Sumo, but seen as almost all of the SG now being unlocked are for Shogun only, I think I'm gonna drop out. The value for Sumo is just not really there, compared to similar big KS, and I'm not prepared to drop 300 bucks on the sweet spot ...
Will still follow this with interest.
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Post by: endtransmission
The stretch goals now go up to 800k, which is our first new Otherworld! This Otherworld is just boards, cards and rules/missions at this point so I would imagine some of the other goals around it that are marked as not available as an add-on will be part of this world
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aeneades wrote:Belly of the beast feels a little short on enemy types at the moment (6 x Acidic Tentacles, 3x Skin Crawlers and 6 x Flesh Mites) so hopefully there will be another enemy type, mini boss or boss to give it a little more character.
There are also acid blobs as an enemy type, which are currently cardboard tokens in the box. This was spotted in the comments section because there is 1 more enemy stat card than miniature type in FoFo. Still not brilliant for an otherworld, but we do have 4 types here. It kind of makes sense that everything in here is stuff that could/would live inside a big monster; but it could do with a big boss of some sort
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Post by: Alpharius
Forar wrote:Yeah, if people leave, they leave. That's their prerogative.
From what the Frogs have said, KS1 is at production. With a good chunk of December a writeoff for the holidays, what's the harm is slotting a campaign in now? Before fulfillment takes up a bunch of time/resources getting the oft lamented Wave 2 actually out to people.
Sure, the Sumo and Shogun levels aren't the 'omgwtfbbq' savings of the first campaign, but we knew that'd be the case. FFP have stated in a number of places that the Outlaw and Mine Cart tiers were underpriced, it would've been delusional to expect them to actively repeat a bad business decision.
Is it less than MSRP? Yes. Less than Retail? Yes. Do backers get things they can't easily get elsewhere (limited edition figures, card packs and such items that are often not found at retail)? Yes.
And with the initial surge of backers, we're already at a point where a good amount has been unlocked, and I'm sure there'll be more to come in the weeks ahead.
So... got on a bit of a rant there, but having seen some of those conversations pop up on the KS Comments, people are entitled to their opinions, but I think some of their opinions betray biases or expectations that aren't realistic. References to expecting equal or better 'deals' or 'value' to other campaigns while ignoring a lot of nuance and history present here.
Plus they're not charging for shipping in advance this time (and that's a good call to make), so we'd likely be well over 700k by now if they had been. But that kind of artificial inflation (not to mention Kickstarter taking a cut of that money) wouldn't have been wise.
Agreed!
They certainly have said often enough that the first campaign had a lot of...let's call them...miscalculations...in it!
Grot 6 wrote:Considering that each and every one of these streach goals will be met, THIS is a great deal. You just fire and forget, the project will do the rest. I can say as well from the first one that they were hit pretty hard by the deal that they gave out on the first project. Forar is spot on with his assessment as well.
Yes, FFP and Forar have indeed said that many times.
Grot 6 wrote:
Problem the vocals have is the sense of entitlement that comes with spending money on a project. Personally... I don't give the peanut gallery much credence, they get pretty savage, and are more then their fair share of just background noise.
Agreed and...
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/thundersqueaks/irony_meter.gif
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Post by: Aeneades
 endtransmission wrote:There are also acid blobs as an enemy type, which are currently cardboard tokens in the box. This was spotted in the comments section because there is 1 more enemy stat card than miniature type in FoFo. Still not brilliant for an otherworld, but we do have 4 types here. It kind of makes sense that everything in here is stuff that could/would live inside a big monster; but it could do with a big boss of some sort
I had seen the blobs mentioned on the main page but just presumed they were mentioning a future stretch goal early but I tracked down a comment from FFP and it sounds like they are happy to have them representanted as tokens. Not convinced that they wont pop up somewhere along the lines. I like the look of the new Otherworld, hopefully we will see at least one more before the end of the campaign. Sounds like no Hell Train during this campaign as it would delay the entire project but a new town expansion is a possibility if funding gets high enough. In the comments they posted a quick summary of the Forest of the Dead Rules - Forest of the Dead The Forest of the Dead is a shadowy realm that lies between worlds, where the dead roam freely amongst the ancient and decayed trees. One of the main World features of the Forest of the Dead is that all the Enemies there automatically gain the Keyword Undead and Fear(1). This combines with the fact that in addition to the normal spectres and monsters that reside there, several of the OtherWorld Threat cards in the Forest have you draw a World card and a Threat from that World, giving you the possibility of running into Undead versions of any Enemies that are out there, as they roam the haunted, supernatural Forest of the Dead! You may run into a patrol of Undead Trederran Legionnaires, zombie Night Terrors, decayed Oni, or rusty and shambling Custodians from the Targa Plateau. The possibilities can be endless, drawn from across your entire Shadows of Brimstone collection to terrify and torment your Heroes!
So, judging by the themes, descriptions and lots of guess work I would say the Otherworld enemy list currently looks like - Belly of the beast: 6 x Acidic Tentacles 3x Skin Crawlers (Large enemies) 6 x Flesh Mites ? x Acid Blobs (tokens not miniatures) Forest of the Dead: 1 x Onmorake Carrion Phoenix (XL enemy) * 6 x Scourge Dead 3 x Goryu (Large enemies) 1 x Undead Daimyo (Mini Boss)* 3 x Spectral Horde (Large enemies) * These could be an enemy for the regular world instead as seems to fit the criteria for both.
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Post by: ced1106
New social media goal!
You know BGG'ers are trapped in the 17th century and won't do this, so make up for them by Sharing! :
https://www.facebook.com/FFPgames/posts/10153938416661994
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Love the Kosugi clan reference. Grew up with their dad's movies as a kid.
They need to have a sword artifact that is possessed by the soul of an ancient ninja, that only females are allowed to wield that then puts them under its control on bad rolls for holding back the darkness, but otherwise turns them into ultimate bad asses.
Trying to figure out what happened to the total between this morning and today. Did the ADD crowd already lose interest or something?
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Post by: ced1106
Well, I read that one of the pledgers was a troll who pledged 1K.
I think the problem the campaign is having is that the Samurai pledge is "all in", which is good for the hardcore SoB players. However, it's bad if there aren't enough pledgers during the campaign to sustain momentum and reach those SG's -- which looks like the case.
I don't think the campaign is attractive to casual Sumo backers who are also looking at Deep Madness, Mythic Battles: Pantheon, and Kingdom Death.
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Post by: Grot 6
He only did that to gak up the project. He is the typical TFG that has brought himself over from the other KS project. The exact person that was alluded to earlier. He will pull out and throw the project back a bit. Ninja add-on is a bag of chips. I'm scrounging up my beer can money and going to get in on this by next week or two, if I can get away with it.
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Post by: Vain
In reference to the person who is trying to futz the numbers...What a tool.
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Post by: Siygess
I'm sure this KS has another $150k in it over the next month but I agree with ced1106 - if you are only looking to drop around $100 plus shipping, Pantheon is looking like a much stronger (standalone) prospect with stretch goals that actually apply to you. All things being equal, if you can only afford one of the two, I think you would really have to be invested in SoB (probably through ownership of one or both of the previous core boxes) to go for Sumo.
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Post by: Mutter
ced1106 wrote:
I don't think the campaign is attractive to casual Sumo backers who are also looking at Deep Madness, Mythic Battles: Pantheon, and Kingdom Death.
This! That's exactly the position I'm in, that's why I dropped my pledge ...
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Post by: Alpharius
SHOGUN looks great for me - and I think this one will probably push up against $1M eventually, if not tick a bit over.
At least, I certainly hope it does!
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Post by: Nostromodamus
I had to drop out  It really sucks, but at least I'll have SoB wave 2 soon.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I'm super late to SoB as you guys know, but even after a few days, I know we're in love. The wife and I threw maybe eight hours a day/evening at it, each of the last three days.
Saying that, I wish this KS would run like gangbusters and go into the 2m+ mark. I'm in for $295 which, at $1million, a solid deal, but I know it would be exciting to have this one really run into "amazing deal" territory.
Either way, I have an easy time investing in games with a healthy future, and I literally have 20+ expansions to expect at retail before this KS fulfills, which in turn means a game they're obviously planning to support for at least another couple years after that... and that is an awesome success.
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Post by: Alpharius
Update time!
Update #6
Nov 9 2016
Kosugi Master and Clan Ninjas Deluxe Enemy Pack Unlocked! New Add Ons! Beautiful New Painted Minis!
Hello Fortress Fans!
We have some exciting things to share. Progress is being made on all fronts - miniatures are being sculpted, figures painted, artifact illustrations, map tiles, etc. We are busy bees, but we wanted to do a quick update to show off some stuff.
Kosugi Master and Clan Ninjas Deluxe Enemy Pack Unlocked!
We had a fantastic response to our recent Social Media Stretch Goal. No sooner did we post the update then you guys sprang into action, sharing the post on Facebook with all of your friends and family! We got 250 shares and unlocked the Stretch Goal in just a couple of hours! Way to go! Keep sharing info and pictures on social media and we can be sure that everyone knows about the game. After our last Kickstarter ended, we got a flood of email and messages saying "I missed the Kickstarter! Is it too late?!?" I guarantee this will happen again after this campaign wraps at the end of the month. I just wish all of those gamers could get the message now during the KS, so that they can join the group!
New Add Ons
Backers have been very vocal about asking for Add Ons for the project and we listened! The number one request that we get in email and messages has been for Custom Dice. Not surprising since they were the hottest add-on in the last Kickstarter. Well, we not only created new Forbidden Fortress Dice designs, but we've included all of the original Shadows of Brimstone Custom Dice as well, to give backers a chance to get the cool dice from the first Kickstarter!
We've also added the Deluxe Dark Stone for those who would like to trick out their game!
Beautiful New Painted Minis
Our Studio Painter, Aaron Lovejoy, has been hard at work painting up the minis (3D Printed Prototypes) and you may have already seen the heroes. But, he has just completed the Acidic Tentacles and the XL-Sized Epic Boss, The Living Statue!
Happy Gaming!
Scott and Jason
It is always good to see the inevitable 'dice add-on' show up as, apparently, a lot of people want them (drive up that total baby!) and now that they're here people can now stop asking for them!
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
This campaign has been quite frustrating to watch this past week though. No real movement despite FFP trying to inject a bit of excitement into things with the dice and ninjas.
The dice add ons I don't get, but I know people really do go crazy over dice.
My Cthulhu Wars dice ended up paying for my base game for example. I'd ordered a few of the KS sets to pass around the table, and they ended up selling for way more than I thought they ever would have/ should have.
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Post by: Myrthe
Yeah, watch out for the "Deluxe Dark Stone" optional buy. I went for that in the first campaign and it turned out to be translucent purple aquarium "rocks". And, while not smooth, they certainly weren't the shards depicted in the sketch.
I'm really torn on this campaign. I went full Mine Cart (and then some) in the first one and I STILL don't have it all. Moreso, we haven't played it all. FoFo's expected delivery is 18 months away !! But they aren't known for making deadlines. Additionally, I hate they way they botched the minis in the first campaign. And the resins aren't much better, IMO. I don't appreciate unannounced diversions from what was expected.
That being said, I LOVE the game !!! I might just ride the campaign out and see where it goes. If I remain on the fence I might just wait for retail release.
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Post by: Alpharius
I am also shocked at the stall we're in right now...
Hopefully there aren't too many zero or negative days, and this one can get to climbing again soon.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
Its largely stalled because the Sumo level just isnt all that exciting a deal when weighed against other kickstarters. You currently get the main box, the exclusive sumo pair, 4 alt gender heroes, 4 card expansions, a large model and a unit expansion.
Going by current SoB pricing available, the main box will be $$65 on mini market or a similar site, the 4 alt heroes are $8 each on Flying Frog's main site ($32, possibly cheaper when released formally), the Ninja Clan compares to the Scafford Gang ($26 on mini market), and the spider lady will probably shake out around $20 on mini market. The cards retail for $10 each, but to me thats stupid expensive for 15 cards... and they sell them 3 for 2 on the website. So $30 assuming you value them at that. Current value of the pledge is about $175+ the exclusive Sumo if you buy stuff online, so we'll say $195. But you have to also pay shipping on this and can probably get free shipping elsewhere, so that reduces the value by another $10-$20 for US residents.
At which point I'm looking at a $75 savings for paying 2 years out, because let's face it, delivery won't be on time, particularly that close to Chinese New Year. It's easy to see why it hasnt picked up steam. Mythic Battles: Pantheon and Deep Madness offer more bang for my buck. And Black Friday is just around the corner, and I know there's going to be crap I want then, so that's even less incentive to pay now for a moderate savings years later.
I really enjoy my SoB stuff, but this is feeling more like a pass until retail for me, as I cant afford to go Shogun and they arent interested in letting you upgrade later.
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Post by: ced1106
 Bossk_Hogg wrote:Going by current SoB pricing available, the main box will be $$65 on mini market or a similar site, the 4 alt heroes are $8 each on Flying Frog's main site ($32, possibly cheaper when released formally), the Ninja Clan compares to the Scafford Gang ($26 on mini market), and the spider lady will probably shake out around $20 on mini market. The cards retail for $10 each, but to me thats stupid expensive for 15 cards... and they sell them 3 for 2 on the website. So $30 assuming you value them at that. Current value of the pledge is about $175+ the exclusive Sumo if you buy stuff online, so we'll say $195. But you have to also pay shipping on this and can probably get free shipping elsewhere, so that reduces the value by another $10-$20 for US residents.
And, of course, if you're just a casual player, you don't need the less-bang-for-the-buck mini-expansions. If you wait for an eBay flash sale (there's one today until 9pm PST), you can knock off another $15 for a base set, as well as wait for used sets from gamers who don't want to assemble the game. Deep Madness and Mythic Battles are just throwing miniatures at their $100 backers. Hardcore backers should be satisfied at $300, and I think the KS campaign is really only going after this market. The KS should finish at $1M+, not a bad funding amount for FFP. With fewer backers and minimal add-ons, FFP will be able to fulfill this KS faster.
EDIT: Yeesh! -3K today.
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Post by: Forar
While one can get the cards on a sale, they aren't at retail, so one is paying FFP's shipping on those if nothing else (regardless of what free shipping one might get on other stuff from CSI or another site).
Valuing the exclusive Sumo at $20 seems awfully low. Of course, not many people will pay "$Texas" for those figures, but even going by 'sold' listings on Ebay for the Outlaw, the prices can be pretty absurd.
Artificial scarcity, am I right?
Even just right now, 1.5 or 2 to 1 for backing early, along with exclusives that are absurd to get after the fact, shipping in at least 2 sections (and that assumes all of those end up at retail together), and potentially getting some content early (if not all of it, again assuming they do complete it in a single step).
I'm not saying people should bow and scrape before the Sumo tier, but as a starting level, but while it's a good idea for consumers to be aware of getting the best deals they can, we also need to recognize that not every campaign is a Bones or Zombicide or Kingdom Death. We're not always going to get 400 minis for $100.
If that means some people tap out and wait for better deals, that's cool, and totally understandable. But people asked 'omg, what about more stuff for the Sumo?' and they added a freebie enemy kit and people said "omg why more human enemies? Not enough! More value!"
They have said repeatedly that the first campaign's tiers were undervalued, and the Outlaw was an absurd deal. I can't help but hear (on the KS comments, not accusing anyone here of it) the demands for more and more basically to be looking for a repeat of a business model they admitted was a mistake.
There's roughly 700 sumos, and around 2000 shoguns.
Of course they want the Shogun to be the appealing tier. The effort to keep fulfillment reasonable means they need warm bodies, rather than existing backers bumping up their contribution to buy X, Y, and Z add ons, or they need existing backers to upgrade to the higher tier.
There were around 2700 Outlaws, so yeah, this campaign has a higher buy in and a reduced 'return on investment', but we knew that was going to be the case going in.
At this point I do wish they had run the campaign for 3 weeks instead of the whole month. Short of doubling the Sumo's contents, nothing is going to be enough for some people, so at least we'd probably end up in about the same place but knock a week off the incessant complaining that "this isn't as good a deal as X other campaign!"
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Post by: Alpharius
Well said!
I think the 'value' is still there at Sumo and especially at Shogun, and I do hope that we get to at least the $1M mark.
I'm also still shocked at the backpedaling here.
Maybe starting this one before completely fulfilling the last one was actually as bad a move as some (many?) think?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Another thing to consider which I can now personally speak to... FFP's webstore seems to constantly sell out of many of their exclusives, without firm restock dates. So yes, I cleaned up on card packs during the Halloween sale, but five of the seven, currently webstore exclusive (for now) hero classes, sold out before I could get them.
Going in at Shogun seems to have, as a result, some added implicit value for me as well.
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Post by: Alpharius
Same here for me - I'm willing to take a slight hit on what I *might* be able to pay for some of these things later vs. the savings I'll still get now plus the added convenience of them being shipped to me without much further action required other than this KS campaign!
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
And, honestly, at $800k, Shogun already well passes online discounter prices, even accounting for the gender-alts... so unless you need the money now, and know you'll be buying all the content, there is absolutely no reason not to back.
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Post by: Forar
They just added another Exclusive Hero Class to both tiers.
Of course, it took like 2 minutes before people started gaking over it, but that is "value" added to everyone's pledge, for free.
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Post by: ced1106
Are you saying there were negative comments about the hero?
I can understand that you can get the expansion cheaper retail, although MM and CSI are sold out.
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Post by: Aeneades
Everyone in the update comments seems happy about it but I saw several people complaining in the main comments that there were too many exclusives (usually people moan that here are not enough exclusives..)
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Post by: endtransmission
ced1106 wrote:Are you saying there were negative comments about the hero?
I've seen t least one person complaining that this is a "kick in the teeth" for original backers who bought the Trederra expansion as they now need to pay $100 to finish Treddera as a world *face/palm*
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Post by: ced1106
Gotcha. Well, whatever.
Might pull out myself. BGG supporters keep saying how much "value" there is and are defensive about FFP's practices. Not a good sign.
Something's not something you'd pay cash for just because there's an MSRP on it. If someone brings up something that might be an issue... it's an issue. (That was my gripe about the election, but, oh, well.)
Anyway, another social media freebie for FF. Only 300 more Likes to hit the SG. https://www.facebook.com/FFPgames/
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Post by: Siygess
Yeah, they had.. $620k ish when I said I thought this had another $150k in it, and I believe that is still going to be the case. If this isn't your first project and you offer less, you will get less. As long as FFP are happy with that trade off and ~770k then good for them. But I don't think anyone - especially FFP - should be surprised if this doesn't do as well as the first KS.
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Post by: Alpharius
It is at $690K now, with 16 days left to go. I still think it will finish closer to $1M than to $770K!
There's certainly enough 'value' here, and there will be more to come - and it is a great, fun game already.
I'm a bit puzzled by the 2 steps forward, 1 step back phase it is currently in though.
"Perceived Value" vs. Last Campaign maybe?
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Gives me flashbacks to Mars Attacks, when Mantic just could not get it over a hump in funding.
They threw so much stuff at backers in an attempt to get things moving again. Feels similar here.
This has been one bizarre struggle.
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Post by: Forar
Alpharius wrote:I'm a bit puzzled by the 2 steps forward, 1 step back phase it is currently in though. "Perceived Value" vs. Last Campaign maybe?
Which, as we've been over, was never going to be the same, FFP said it wouldn't be the same because it wasn't sustainable, and has said recently in comments that it wouldn't be the same. All I keep hearing is 'omg repeat the business practices that you have explicitly said were a mistake!' Anyone backing and then pulling their funds because 'it's not the same value as an Outlaw or Mine Cart' isn't paying attention, is willfully ignoring them, or trolling. Or ignorant how Kickstarter works I suppose, but we don't have a lot of brand new fresh blood in this one (out of nearly 2,900 backers, just over 100 have never done a KS before).  highlord tamburlaine wrote:Gives me flashbacks to Mars Attacks, when Mantic just could not get it over a hump in funding. They threw so much stuff at backers in an attempt to get things moving again. Feels similar here. This has been one bizarre struggle.
I mean, what else are they going to do? "Feth off, donkey caves, either it's a good enough deal or it isn't, stop gakking all over our comments"? I do hope that this is all lined up in contingency plans/funds and that the work we've seen is indicative that it was part of the plan all along (or minor modifications to the existing plan). I really hope they aren't screwing with their margins or timeline because some people are taking 'entitled' to a whole new level.
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Post by: Siygess
 Forar wrote:I really hope they aren't screwing with their margins or timeline because some people are taking 'entitled' to a whole new level.
Nah I doubt it. I'm pretty confident that FFP went into this with a much tighter grip on the reigns and the knowledge that they wouldn't make as much as last time as a result. So this won't be the spectacle the first one was and of course people will moan about that, but it is what it is. If you back this one, there will probably* be fewer** problems, will be shipped closer*** to the original target and might**** even be shipped in the expected number of waves.
...maybe.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm not really seeing that here from them this time.
And that's probably part of the 'problem' for some?
It feels adequately restrained and/or 'on budget' for FFP this time around.
It could also be that the setting itself isn't necessarily as popular as Weird Wild West?
Although I'm probably wrong there - and even if that's the case, the whole thing makes for a great Otherworld all of its own!
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
Its more perceived value vs other concurrent kickstarters. Opportunity cost and all. Its competing for my November bucks against Pantheon, Deep Madness and Black Friday sales. The cards expansions are overpriced IMO, so they can claim their retail value all they want, but I'm sure others don't see 10 new gear cards as adding $10 value either.
It's not a bad deal, its just that there seem to be better deals, and the bill is coming due at pretty much the worst part of the year. If this was in May I'd be in Shogun no questions asked. If they let us pledge a buck and then upgrade later, same deal.
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Post by: Alpharius
Yeah, I'll agree the timing on this one isn't ideal, especially with no "Pledge $1 now, upgrade to whatever in the PM" option.
Still, this is one of my personal 'core games' now, so I'm in - now just have to find the hobby funds somewhere in the next 2 weeks!
From the latest update, some add-ons:
More New Add-Ons
Besides the OtherWorld: Caverns of Cynder Expansion, we have also just added some exciting new items to the Add-ons Menu! First up, something that Brimstone Fans have been asking about since day one, a Set of Plastic Doorways for Forbidden Fortress and the Belly of the Beast!
While chatting with backers this morning, we had requests for extra Peril Dice to be made available in the Add-Ons section. The Forbidden Fortress Core Set contains one of these beautiful custom dice, but some players find that they would like extra dice to have around the game table. We have never had extra Peril Dice available before, so they are sure to be a hit with original Shadows of Brimstone backers, too!
Backers have also requested the ability to purchase extra copies of the XL-Sized Jorogumo Spider Queen. We listened and have added both of these requested items to the Add-Ons Menu!
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Post by: Myrthe
For me, the extended delays and still not having everything from the first campaign that I paid for years ago is making me reconsider backing. NOT that I don't see value or love the game. I do, very much so. However, aside from the exclusives, I can buy items when they hit retail and likely at a better price than they are asking for in the KS. And likely before backers get them if their first KS is any indicator.
Plus, the way they've enhanced and added to the expansions of the first KS, requiring backers to buy more to get the additional content, is a pain in the ass to me. I don't mind paying for it, I just hate having to keep track of what I have, what was changed and what I'm missing. I don't need my fun time to be a chore. The game is already wonderfully cumbersome enough without me having to do bookkeeping.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Didn' the prior door set help justify its price by doubling as a card pack? I believe the retail doors come with some loot, or perhaps artifact cards?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Myrthe... The only retroactive additions which clearly derive from previous themes are the Tredera Hero, and the new Cynder enemies... both of which are freebies. The rest is clearly themed.
So there really wouldn't be anything here that you already have.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Didn' the prior door set help justify its price by doubling as a card pack? I believe the retail doors come with some loot, or perhaps artifact cards?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Myrthe... The only retroactive additions which clearly derive from previous themes are the Tredera Hero, and the new Cynder enemies... both of which are freebies. The rest is clearly themed.
So there really wouldn't be anything here that you already have.
I think he's referring to things like the Colonel Scafford which backers had to buy separately but was included in the retail release of the Scafford gang. There may be other items as well, but I recall being annoyed I had to add him in during a limited window or buy an entire extra Scafford gang set to get him.
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Post by: Aeneades
I believe Myrthe was referring to the first Kickstarter. They have been adding new enemy types to the KS1 Stretch Goal / addon Deluxe expansions. So KS1 backers will have to add more funds in the pledge manager to get the complete expansion.
This shouldn't be an issue with this Kickstarter, just when they launched the first one they hadn't really worked out their expansion packaging model and they got it wrong.
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Post by: Siygess
Yeah I was lucky enough to find a backer on BGG who would let me add on a Minecart to his pledge since FFP decided to not to let $1 backers into the PM. I have nooooo fricking clue what I need to add on to my pledge to turn "some models in a baggie" into the boxed expansions.
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Post by: Aeneades
From the sounds of it, FFP will make it very clear in the updated wave 2 pledge manager what you need to get to finish each expansion. Not too hard at all from an IT perspective.
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Post by: ced1106
Bossk_Hogg wrote:Its competing for my November bucks against Pantheon, Deep Madness and Black Friday sales
I think this summarizes how the campaign has been going:
This KS is classic monopolistic competition. For some, they see it as competing against other KS with miniatures. This is the competitive side of the product. For others, they don't see other non- FF purchases as alternatives. This is the monopolistic side.
The competitive side doesn't see value because other KS offer more miniatures (including FFP with their first SoB KS), because FFP was not able to deliver on their previous KS, or because they don't want to pay mini-expansions prices at all, even when discounted.
The monopolistic side sees value because the products offered in this FF KS are at a better price and more convenient offering than buying the products retail or on the website (which may be out of stock on some items). They will buy the mini-expansions and are looking for the best prices for them, even if though these prices do not appeal to the competitive side.
Both sides are correct. The monopolistic side backs the campaign, because they see value compared to FFP retail prices. The competitive side does not back, because other miniature KS provide more miniatures or other reasons.
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Post by: Forar
Alpharius wrote:Yeah, I'll agree the timing on this one isn't ideal, especially with no "Pledge $1 now, upgrade to whatever in the PM" option.
I'm going to take a somewhat combative tone here, but the "pledge $1, get access to the PM" thing is losing its appeal for me. It is literally an option to pay the absolute minimum, ride on the coattails of backers who are willing to front $100-450+, and then get all the rewards they desire without helping at all to better them for the whole backer community.
They've said that the upgrades may not be at the KS price, and that will mean further whining over having to pay that extra $X, whatever it might be. If the PM goes live a few weeks after they get the funding, that'd be one thing, but the issue with KS1 was that the PM opened a year after the campaign ended (give or take), so people were 'salty' that they couldn't reap those rewards despite not having any 'skin in the game' for the previous year.
However it plays out, I think that's part of it; they're sensitive to how that went down. $25 for an art print to get a foot in the door is pretty reasonable, because frankly at that point they might as well add the $75 for the core and exclusives and goodies the Sumo gets. It's a raised 'you must be this tall to ride' bar, but not unreachable.
btw, FYI, if people want to get peril dice added to wave 2, you can ask FFP about it. I don't think this is a big secret, I asked them and they said they would. Charged me $3 per die, so I only got a couple. "omg that's 50 cents more per die than this deal!' Yeah, and as a "someone has to go find my box and toss a handful of them in there" fee, I consider that a fair trade.
ced1106 wrote:Both sides are correct. The monopolistic side backs the campaign, because they see value compared to FFP retail prices. The competitive side does not back, because other miniature KS provide more miniatures or other reasons.
And some of the friction we're seeing is the incessant whining on the KS comments of some 'competitive side' folks who apparently desperately want FFP to cater to their need to get under "$X per figure" to maintain some measure of 'value'. At this point I kind of want them to toss like 48 rats in as a stretch goal. There, bam, we just added like 1/3 to the sumo's figure count, how's your quantity over quality calculation doing now?
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Post by: Alpharius
I don't think its that big a deal, or anything to get too upset about.
It is a nice option to offer, if they can offer it.
If not, no big deal. If I can't afford it 'now', then I won't buy it 'now' - and possibly not 'later' either.
Risks on both sides there, I guess!
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Post by: Forar
I think it kind of ties back to a few of the $1 backers who got rather abrasive during the last campaign when they were told they couldn't snag a big pile of tiers a year after the money was originally collected.
They've said that upgrading will be more expensive in the PM, though not by how much, so that's a gamble of a sort, but if we look back on the increased prices in the first campaign's PM (Mine Cart, and later for the heightened shipping that had similar 'political' considerations) it'll probably be... what, substantial but not horrifying? From what they've said, right now it's basically set up as a bit of a gamble on both sides; we should be getting a good deal, and their costs are estimated. I'm guessing the PM will be in a bit, because part of what they've said or alluded to is that when the PM lands and people can upgrade, the uncertainty will be gone, they should know what some of those variables actually are, and that cost will get passed over (like if $300 is reasonable on a Shogun, but after all the numbers are crunched they really should've been looking at 325 or 350...). Not as a threat, of course, more of a 'this is the deal time, the PM will be after the cold hard truths have been seen', or that's my interpretation at least.
I suppose it also depends on when they do the PM. If it's 6 or 12 months out, that's one thing, if it's 2-4 weeks after the campaign ends, that's another (Dwarven Forge does this, and means that basically I have to be ready on what I'm going to pledge for and that's it, none of this 'oh, I'll just add another $X00 in the PM; Amazon collects the money and then DF gets the final tally rolling a few weeks later).
They may not have an exact date in mind, but it'd be nice if someone ran that by them the next time a Frog is in the comments. Even a vague idea (this year? Q1 next year? Q2? Etc)
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm in for Shogun, so I haven't really been paying attention to what FFP have said they would/would not allow in terms of PM 'upgrades'.
I think we know that "$1 Now, Upgrade Later" is out - so what is the confirmed minimum upgrade level?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I could be mistaken Alpharius, but I believe the comment I saw simply said upgrading IN the PM will be doable, but won't be at the same price as if you pledge properly during the KS itself... which if you ask me, is completely fair.
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Post by: Alpharius
I agree - that's perfectly fine.
But I thought that was a 'minimum to upgrade' level - but maybe not!
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Post by: Theophony
I'm about to go into an interview, and if all goes well I'll be backing later today. If not I'll be waiting for retail on this or Raising Sun from CMON depending on costs.
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Post by: Alpharius
Alpharius wrote:I agree - that's perfectly fine.
But I thought that was a 'minimum to upgrade' level - but maybe not!
Or maybe yes!
Can I upgrade my pledge later in the Pledge Manager?
Any Pledge of $25 (Lotus Level) or higher will get access to the Pledge Manager later on after the Kickstarter Campaign is completed. In the Pledge Manager, you will be able to pay additional funds to upgrade your pledge to a Sumo or Shogun Level, but the cost of these levels will be higher than during the Kickstarter Campaign. We do not yet know what the upgrade cost in the Pledge Manager will be as it depends on how many stretch goals are unlocked and the cost to produce them.
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Post by: Forar
Alpharius wrote:I'm in for Shogun, so I haven't really been paying attention to what FFP have said they would/would not allow in terms of PM 'upgrades'.
I think we know that "$1 Now, Upgrade Later" is out - so what is the confirmed minimum upgrade level?
From what I've seen, the $25 "Lotus" level will have access to the PM.
Edit: oh look, another page.
So, what you said...
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Post by: Aeneades
Looks like we should finally get through that $700k barrier tonight.
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Post by: Forar
Crossed it recently, though I'm not going to assume we're out of idiotic 'yo-yo range' for another couple thousand.
Barring some ridiculous 5k drop, however, I'm figuring the next update (possibly tonight, based on how they're getting pretty frequent now) will likely mention it almost regardless.
It's been too long in the making, gotta stoke that enthusiasm.
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Post by: Forar
In case anyone hasn't been paying close attention, we've finally ticked over the 725k mark (Ally: Ronin Guard, figure/rules/cards), and hit a Social stretch goal/freebie (Bone Eaters, Belly of the Beast monsters).
Next target is the Spectral Horde (3 large figures) at 750k. Still sitting in the gradual increase that has characterized the middle of the campaign, but I remain hopeful we'll get to or very near the 800k mark by the time the 48 hour reminder emails go out, and break the 1m mark by the end.
Getting higher/more would be nice, but I certainly wouldn't complain if that was our final result.
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Post by: Azazelx
I haven't been paying any attention, except for checking this thread occasionally. Timing couldn't be worse on this one, so while I'd like to go "all in", it's debatable whether I'll be able to go in at all. (and will remain so until the end).
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I know everyone's all about the Kingdom Death hotness, but this is news!
They just added a pretty limited new couple of pledge tiers including the OLD Minecart that was said to be impossible to reproduce. Essentially $950 gets you EVERYTHING from the original Kickstarter and this Kickstarter, including stuff like the Outlaw class which goes for $100+ on Ebay alone.
They're going fast but that has also pushed us through three stretch-goals including the $800k unlock of the Forest of the Dead Otherworld.
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Post by: Fraggle
When is a kickstarter exclusive not exclusive? When your campaign has been struggling along for weeks apparently.
I can see allowing the 'mine cart' all in aspect but the outlaw included just feels like a step too far.
No way I'm going shogun, I'll just wait out the Daimyo for when the next KS struggles.....
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Post by: Alpharius
I don't see this one as struggling too much though, especially not in the face of the juggernaut that is KD:M 1.5.
This one still has a good shot at clearing $1M after all!
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Post by: Forar
The Outlaw could be purchased as an add on during the first campaign for $20. Secondary market absurdity aside, it's a fun class and a nice addition, but I doubt it's the main cause people are dropping like a grand on this campaign all of a sudden.
And agreed; while it's not *exploding* like some campaigns do, in terms of a sequel campaign, I'd say treading water in the middle has been both expected and generally is what it is.
I think clearing 1 million is all but a given now, once those 48 hour reminder emails go out. 1.3 for the town? I hope, but unless this keeps up for the next 4 days in full, that seems like a bit of a reach.
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Post by: Fraggle
Alpharius, if you've been following the campaign you'll know the whole 675k struggle and then it was flat lining until these mine cart like pledges came. Check kicktraq.
It's just annoyed me that something you pledge for years ago ( and have only received half of but that's another story) has now been used to prop up this KS. The expansions are fair game but the KS exclusive..... not so much. People would go nuts if zombicide released the S1 KS survivors for example.
Anyway the KS comments are so rose tinted anyone who complains gets yelled down.
I'm pleasantly surprised by the lack of major dip due to KDM.
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Post by: Forar
It's one figure, two rules sheets, and a couple of cards. That Zombicide comparison is stretching things a bit.
As for the comments, they've been a toxic gakstorm for weeks. Frankly I'm not surprised that after finally getting a massive bump in movement there'd be a little pushback on people being dour still.
There's a couple of donkey caves in this campaign who would continue to give FFP grief if the company tucked a roll of hundred dollar bills in every package as it was shipped out.
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Post by: devilution
Is this game as fun as Myth? :-)
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Post by: Fraggle
Forar, I see where you are coming from, but the secondary market drives the 'value' of that exclusive.
For the last 3 weeks the comments have loved to express the secondary market 'value' of the sumo and Daimyo as propping up the pledges!
Each to their own, but I'm less bothered about Shogun now as no doubt the Daimyo will be available again at some point. Precedent set.
Here's hoping the town is reached as a lot of backers seem to want it, but I think it may just fall sort. 1 mil is probably a given at this point.
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Post by: Forar
If these things come up as an opportunity once every 2-3 years, I'd say that's exclusive enough for my delicate sensibilities. :-P
Plus, if they are available again in the pledge manager, that could work to your favour. Even if extra Daimyo's are only available for purchase by Shogun backers, it'd mean you could possibly get in on that simply by knowing a Shogun who can hook you up with the PM goes live. Obviously it'd be beneficial if they were local to avoid extra shipping costs, but hopefully there'll be options.
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Post by: Fraggle
Haha maybe 2-3 years is acceptable... when did the game ship again ;-p
I've been following the comments throughout so know what it's been like. Can't be doing with the white knights and constant brainwashing of value.
I know what you mean about a couple of the donkey caves though. Although I would have preferred more involvement from the frogs, something similar to MBP
Now to find a friendly Shogun....
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Post by: Forar
 Fraggle wrote:Haha maybe 2-3 years is acceptable... when did the game ship again ; op.
I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. To take a stab at it; the Outlaw rules went out with Wave 1, which shipped in late 2014. If some "KS2 Mine Cart" people get theirs in the middle of 2017, that's nearly a 3 year 'exclusivity edge'. And let's be real here, the game is not WYSIWYG; you can use any figure you like for any class, so the rules are the valuable thing, and I doubt five minutes on Google would disappoint me if I really wanted to find a digital copy of the character card, upgrade chart, and starter gear stats. People being willing to pay for something they can ostensibly get for free is indicative of some pretty positive things. Using a 'real copy' as a carrot to help draw in what is approaching 150k before we even hit the final bump is pretty nice. I'm seeing it as a win/win.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well, debate aside... I've felt like, as someone who has quickly fallen head-over-heels for Shadows in the last month, that around 800k - 1 million, the game offers significant value at Shogun, IF you were inclined to ultimately buy it all eventually at retail or online shop prices.
In the last month the wife and I spend $500ish on a third of what Minecart backers once got for $400, and I don't feel jilted at all. If anything it just confirms that I LOVE the system, and thus know Shogun is an easy choice for us.
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Post by: streamdragon
If I could 'add-on' the original Outlaw rules to my Forbidden Fortress Shogun pledge I would do it in a heart beat. I missed the original Kickstarter, but I have bought most of the releases retail (including both cores, caverns, trederra AND frontier town). The Outlaw is a big gaping hole in my collection that I am unlikely to be able to fill, as shelling out *checks ebay* $100 or $150 for it is patently out of the question. That's HALF of my Shogun pledge right there.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
As others have said, Dragon... its a matter of how much you want to support the company. Clearly FFP has made a game in this that I had been asking for from the industry for a decade+. This is FINALLY, an even more content-rich, reimagined Warhammer Quest.
As such, I gladly will buy every single retail and FFP Webstore exclusive (and have been), and have gone in at Shogun for this KS.
But in doing so, i've show them my support... so when Google-fu accidentally resulted in my seeing the Outlaws skills, stats, etc... I wasn't TOO upset. ;-)
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Post by: streamdragon
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:As others have said, Dragon... its a matter of how much you want to support the company. Clearly FFP has made a game in this that I had been asking for from the industry for a decade+. This is FINALLY, an even more content-rich, reimagined Warhammer Quest.
As such, I gladly will buy every single retail and FFP Webstore exclusive (and have been), and have gone in at Shogun for this KS.
But in doing so, i've show them my support... so when Google-fu accidentally resulted in my seeing the Outlaws skills, stats, etc... I wasn't TOO upset. ;-)
I think you're agreeing with me? I retail bought most of SoB because I love the game. I think the only FFP game I do not own is Fortune and Glory. I support them greatly. But I'm not going to support a third party to buy the Outlaw pack on eBay. I would buy it from FFP in a heart beat.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I do agree with you. :-p I'm just being coy because Mods scare me. :-p This post is the equivalent of explaining a joke. :-)
Just saying... we hardcore fans of the game should always show our love to FFP, and yes, if there was a way outside of Minecart 2 (and thus rebuying the entire game for many of us), I would leap at it.
But I can't so... ;-)
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Post by: Azazelx
Forar wrote:
To take a stab at it; the Outlaw rules went out with Wave 1, which shipped in late 2014. If some "KS2 Mine Cart" people get theirs in the middle of 2017, that's nearly a 3 year 'exclusivity edge'.
Did they? I don't think I actually got them. I got the two core boxes and a few extra red plastic sprues along with a huge invoice that was missing almost everything on it because wave shipping and multi-year delays. I do not recall any other content in my box.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Man, WHAT THE  ?!?
I get off the plane and all of a sudden this thing is moving again!
FFP offers up new pledge levels that basically combine the mine cart with the shogun pledge, and offered up the upcoming otherworlds as well. This is where we are now.
The Forest Otherworld unlocked.
A monkey ally unlocked.
Fallen Sorcerers unlocked.
Giant Temple Dog statues unlocked.
A Japanese village expansion at 1.3m shown as well.
And the million dollar dragon's sculpt:
Who happens to be sitting on a 90mm base.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I REALLY hope the Feudal Town has different mechanics than the Frontier Town, if only to not render the other irrelevant.
Its shocking how much better of a game SoB is with the Frontier Town, so the thought of more of that for the new game, but where I will still want to visit both on occasion, excites me immensely.
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Post by: Aeneades
Azazelex, all you should have for the Outlaw class so far is -
The double sided character card.
A double sided reference sheet with the upgrade chart.
Three Outlaw Starting Option cards: Hitman, Outlaw Charm, Reckless.
4 Starting Gear cards: 2×Outlaw Pistol, Bandanna, Sawed-Off Shotgun.
They were bundled up with the other promo cards.
Regarding exclusivity of the Outlaw class -
FFP worded the Outlaw exclusivity badly, from their comments during first Kickstarter it was clear that the only thing that actually was a Kickstarter exclusive was the sculpt with them intending to provide the rules on the website for free at some point in the future.
I don't mind them making more copies available now, the completionist in me would rather that all Kickstarter exclusives be timed exclusive rather than full on exclusives..
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Just a semi-related head's up, but Flying Frog's webstore just updated with a limited restock of almost all the Gencon Limited Preview Classes.
I grabbed Frontier Doc, Jargono Native, Drifter, and Cowboy... but the others are still in stock too.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
So, no $1 PM access? Anyone in SoCal with a pledge I can piggyback on later? I'd cover shipping for add ons. The dragon and temple dogs are must-haves for me.
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Post by: Forar
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:So, no $1 PM access? Anyone in SoCal with a pledge I can piggyback on later? I'd cover shipping for add ons. The dragon and temple dogs are must-haves for me.
Correct; the $25 tier is the bar to clear for access to the PM.
Good idea on piggybacking though. Even if it ends up vaguely around retail pricing, who knows how many months or quarters (or more) it'll take for all of the content to get to retail. Maybe by the end of the year it delivers, maybe sometime in 2019.
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Post by: Aeneades
Apparently they also have 3 new card packs for pre-order and a 3 for 2 deal on all card packs. I am holding off for a bit in case they allow us to roll them into Wave 2 shipping.
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Post by: Alpharius
If I'm a Minecart Backer, what 3 would I get that I'm not already getting?
Ancient Terrors, Blood Money and...?
Is it Murky Confrontations?
EDIT:
A look on the original SoB page seems to indicate all three of those card packs are already included...
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Post by: Aeneades
They have added the next three stretch goals, unable to post the image but it's models to replace the Acid Blob tokens, XL boss for belly of the beast and a regular size mini boss. The blobs are included in sumo, their other two are shogun only.
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Post by: Forar
@Alpharius: answered you on the other SoB page, but in case you don't check it very often, the Swamp Slugs and Hell Vermin were created post KS campaign, and as such nobody is getting them innately in their wave 2. However, they were available as previews at Gencon 2015, and are already at retail (you can find both at CoolStuffInc, as an example). So they might even be available locally.
Here are the new stretch goals up to 1 million.
1
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Post by: Alpharius
I saw your answer there - thank you!
You are my 'go to' source for all things SoB - especially when I get confused over everything/anything!
This one is shaping up VERY nicely too...
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
@Alph. For what its worth, the wife and I added the Slugs and Serpentmen as one of our first extra purchases, and I must say I cannot imagine Jargono without them. I would go so far as to say it would be incomplete without them.
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Post by: Forar
The Slugs are very dangerous indeed. They're a good 'siege-breaker' unit; you can try to block them up like other enemies, but just being next to them can be a tough proposition.
And yeah, almost at 912k now, come on reminder emails, let's do this thing!
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Post by: Alpharius
Only four hours to go for that - though since that is later on EST and late night EU, we might not see too much come from it until tomorrow morning?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Honestly, i'm pretty sure we won't hit 1.3 million, as I bet a fair amount of fund disappeared into the void that is Kingdom Death, but, even sans Gender-Alt models... at $1 million, the Shogun pledge saves somewhere in the realm of $150 even at the best online discounter prices, if you would've bought anything with actual game-play value. Beyond that just makes a great deal even better.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Dropped my KDM pledge to get back on this Hell Train. I couldn't resist more SoB goodness!
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Post by: Forar
Alpharius wrote:Only four hours to go for that - though since that is later on EST and late night EU, we might not see too much come from it until tomorrow morning?
From the 'community' page, about half the backers are in the US, over half (maybe approaching 60%'ish) if you include all of North America (I assume there's at least a few backers in Mexico, but not enough to break the top 10 list), which isn't necessarily the same distribution as people who want the Reminder email, but I assume it's not too terribly far off. Edit: I forgot to finish that thought! So, yes, I agree that it might not be until tomorrow morning that things really get rolling, but I'm hoping we clear 1m tomorrow so we can enter the last day with the Dragon done and some of the post-1m targets lined up. Even if we don't get to the village (I'm hopeful, but respect that it'll take a big influx of people and cash), I think we'll clear well beyond 1m-1.1m.
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Post by: Azazelx
Aeneades wrote:Azazelex, all you should have for the Outlaw class so far is -
The double sided character card.
A double sided reference sheet with the upgrade chart.
Three Outlaw Starting Option cards: Hitman, Outlaw Charm, Reckless.
4 Starting Gear cards: 2×Outlaw Pistol, Bandanna, Sawed-Off Shotgun.
They were bundled up with the other promo cards.
gak. I'm pretty sure I don't have any of that stuff - including any other promo cards. I got 2 boxed sets and some extra plastic sprues in red. I'll check my SoB stuff this weekend just in case I put promo cards in between the starter boxes, but I'm like 90% sure I don't have any printed extras - just the sprues and bases that came with them.
Anyway. The "All-In" on this one is Sumo, right? No extra crap to buy on top?
I don't have any money spare, especially after BF, but I might play the 1-week to sort your pledge game for it.
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Post by: Siygess
 Azazelx wrote:Aeneades wrote:Azazelex, all you should have for the Outlaw class so far is -
The double sided character card.
A double sided reference sheet with the upgrade chart.
Three Outlaw Starting Option cards: Hitman, Outlaw Charm, Reckless.
4 Starting Gear cards: 2×Outlaw Pistol, Bandanna, Sawed-Off Shotgun.
They were bundled up with the other promo cards.
gak. I'm pretty sure I don't have any of that stuff - including any other promo cards. I got 2 boxed sets and some extra plastic sprues in red. I'll check my SoB stuff this weekend just in case I put promo cards in between the starter boxes, but I'm like 90% sure I don't have any printed extras - just the sprues and bases that came with them.
Anyway. The "All-In" on this one is Sumo, right? No extra crap to buy on top?
I don't have any money spare, especially after BF, but I might play the 1-week to sort your pledge game for it.
Shogun, not Sumo. Sumo is the poor mans pledge level :(
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
One million breached, the giant dragon is now included in both Sumo and Shogun pledges.
Pretty good deal even at the Sumo pledge now, what with the social goals included.
Next two goals are up too- Nobu Taskmaster and a Takobake cannon with crew.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Is the dragon available as an add on?
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Post by: Forar
It isn't yet, but they said early in the campaign that they anticipated it having an MSRP of $45. We won't know for sure until they set up the pledge manager, but that was their last word on it that I'm aware of. Edit: I'm looking for the exact quote, updated MSRP, I might've been thinking about something else as an add on. Edit 2: that said, $25 for a lotus plus say $30+ for the dragon, you'd be over half way to a Sumo which would get you the core box, the dragon, and a pile of cards/exclusives/other stuff. I get that not everybody can fling around $100+shipping at a whim, but Lotus+Dragon (if possible) is probably a fraction of the deal just getting in at the Sumo would be.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
That's a great point. I take it all the miniatures will be plastic?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, I just don't have the money. Most of the minis I want look like they will be available for only 25% more at retail, which isn't too bad. Depending on the availability of the dragon I'll either wait for retail, piggyback on some kind Samaritan's pledge or try to 'late back' if the mark-up isn't too outrageous.
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Post by: Azazelx
 Siygess wrote: Azazelx wrote:
Anyway. The "All-In" on this one is Sumo, right? No extra crap to buy on top?
I don't have any money spare, especially after BF, but I might play the 1-week to sort your pledge game for it.
Shogun, not Sumo. Sumo is the poor mans pledge level :(
Sorry, that's what I meant. Pledged now anyway. Assuming the usual "1-week to sort it out" thing works, I'm in.
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Post by: Alpharius
Bad timing here for me - I'll probably have to drop down to a $25 Lotus pledge now and upgrade to SHOGUN later.
I hope the updgrade tax there isn't too high - but this is just horrible timing for me!
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Post by: Forar
Damn, I hope everything's okay, Alpharius.
I mean, beyond the financial situation.
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Post by: Alpharius
Everything will work out, but thank you for the well wishes!
I'd like to say that if this thing ended 2 weeks later, I'd be in at SHOGUN now, but probably not, as that's just 2 weeks closer to Christmas!
Any guesses on what the Upgrade Tax will be?
Hopefully less than...$50 - $75?
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Post by: Forar
Off hand, I figure it'd be kind of like the upgrade tax with the Mine Cart. The highest MC during the campaign was $480, the MC in the PM was $500.
So yeah, 25-50'ish hopefully? Unless they hit a snag and find that they're once again way in the red on tiers (US economy falls off a cliff or something), I figure that with the smaller scope of the project, hopefully the 'tax' won't be very high.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Have they mentioned the size of the dragon? Will it be HIPS?
I just discovered this exists, and wonder how they compare.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Have they mentioned the size of the dragon? Will it be HIPS?
I just discovered this exists, and wonder how they compare.
It will be HIPS and the $1m update shows a scale pic. Another update said it was 188mm tall on a 90mm base.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I guess I'd better get both.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
The Brimstone dragon will be much bigger- it's on a 90mm base for starters, while the Malifaux dragon is on a 50mm base.
The emissary can be the Brimstone dragon's baby brother.
Although the emissary is out now and is probably a much more enjoyable (obnoxious?) kit to build.
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Post by: Siygess
Too bad we didn't hit 1.3 for the village. I wonder if FFP will keep updating the total once people add-on in the PM. I suppose that will depend when the PM is launched..
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Post by: Forar
Siygess wrote:I wonder if FFP will keep updating the total once people add-on in the PM. I suppose that will depend when the PM is launched..
Probably not. I'm aware that some campaigns do that, but they appear to be the exception, rather than the rule.
If anything, perhaps some of the stretch goals we missed will be released as paid add ons in the pledge manager like last time, but that'll remain to be seen until the PM lands.
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Post by: Alpharius
This one ended nicely though - beating some pundits' expectations by over $300K!
And it did this while running and ending at almost the same time as Mythic Pantheon and having to endure the launch of Kingdom Death Monster 1.5 as well.
Now I just anxiously await to see what the PM Upgrade Tax will be...
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Post by: Myrthe
I decided to pass on this even though I was a Mine Cart (plus !!) backer the first time around. Too many other new KS games and XMas all at the same time.
Aside from not having the first fulfilled yet, I just don't play it enough and we have yet to venture into much of the extra content that has been delivered. I'll just get the FoFo core set and a few add-ons once it hits retail. I didn't need the mass of stuff and, for me, some of the models just weren't that compelling compared to the Mythic Battles miniatures. YMMV, of course.
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Post by: Azazelx
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Have they mentioned the size of the dragon? Will it be HIPS?
I just discovered this exists, and wonder how they compare.
There's also a restic Wrath of Kings Asian-style dragon. But if the dragon's your main thing you may as well just grab that Malifaux one now, at a retail discount and have it in hand well and truly before 2018/2019
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Azazelx wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:Have they mentioned the size of the dragon? Will it be HIPS?
I just discovered this exists, and wonder how they compare.
There's also a restic Wrath of Kings Asian-style dragon. But if the dragon's your main thing you may as well just grab that Malifaux one now, at a retail discount and have it in hand well and truly before 2018/2019
I have the Wrath of Kings dragon. It's very nice, but it has a saddle and the sculptor copied the artist's style a little more closely than I would have liked, so isn't entirely useful as an HQ hero in its own right. I still haven't finished converting the rider to my satisfaction. I've put the Malifaux dragon on my wishlist, and will acquire him one way or another by the time my hobby ADD circles back to fantasy. (I was underwhelmed by Malifaux's Dawn Serpent mini, though.) Forbidden Fortress has so many other things I want, such as the Three Storms, the stone lions, and some of the monsters, that I need to really think about where and when to jump in.
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Post by: Theophony
Azazelx wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:Have they mentioned the size of the dragon? Will it be HIPS?
I just discovered this exists, and wonder how they compare.
There's also a restic Wrath of Kings Asian-style dragon. But if the dragon's your main thing you may as well just grab that Malifaux one now, at a retail discount and have it in hand well and truly before 2018/2019
Or get the clearance Arcane Legions Dragons (2 preprinted ones) from Miniaturemarket.com for $15 and base them on flying stands.
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/wls018.html
I did for my Asian themed army today n KOW.
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Post by: Alpharius
Meanwhile...
Update #24
Nov 30 2016
Congratulations Everyone on a very Successful Kickstarter!
Greetings Fortress Fans!
Well, how exciting was that?! Today brings an end to the Shadows of Brimstone: Forbidden Fortress Kickstarter Campaign and it was a thrilling ride as we blew through some exciting Stretch Goals in the last few hours!
Congratulations Everyone on a very Successful Kickstarter!
Kickstarters are strange and wonderful things, but they are also all-encompassing and running one means that life as you knew it is over for about a month. The moment you wake up, from any brief slumber you can steal, you hit refresh on your phone and squint at the numbers to see where it's at - is everything okay?!? Did we unlock a Stretch Goal?!? What is being said in the Comments? What can we do today to help the project be successful? It can be exhausting. At the same time, it is an insane burst of progress - every few days, new illustrations are coming in from in-house and freelance illustrators! New painted minis! New Map Tiles! And, we are constantly creating new promo images and advertisements, so that generates a huge amount of imagery surrounding the game. As we answer questions in comments and write info in updates, it solidifies details and fleshes out concepts. With the ebb and flow of the comments and messages, it becomes apparent what excites the fans most, what they desire. This can shape our plans, and really get us pumped about designs, when we know that people are excited about them, too!
It's an exciting and dramatic period of time, filled with highs and lows and will not soon be forgotten. Thank you all for joining us on this journey, and for helping to make this a very successful Kickstarter Campaign!
'Battle with a Living Statue!' by Master Illustrator, Ben Wootten.
Once again, a wonderful community was formed over the course of this Kickstarter Campaign and I hope that it continues here in the comments section, on Board Game Geek, on Facebook (if you have not already, be sure to check out the unofficial Shadows of Brimstone Community Group), and in other forums.
Our Sculptor, Dan, is hard at work on the Gastral Tyrant model as we speak!
We have not slept much in the last month, so we need to go pass out now and then resume development tomorrow on Forbidden Fortress! We will be making regular status updates about once a month, as well as additional updates for any breaking news. In the meantime, congratulations once again on a very successful KS campaign and Happy Gaming!
Cheers,
Scott and Jason
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Post by: Forar
If anyone *really* wishes they'd gotten in on this campaign and missed out, FFP is offering late backer entries on their web store;
$125 for a Sumo (plus shipping)
$350 for a Shogun (plus shipping)
Not that I'm expecting a rush of traffic their way, but I thought I'd throw it out there in case someone wanted to take advantage of the opportunity.
It also seems to lend credence to the idea that the upgrade cost in the pledge manager probably won't be too horrific.
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Post by: Grot 6
Forar wrote:If anyone *really* wishes they'd gotten in on this campaign and missed out, FFP is offering late backer entries on their web store;
$125 for a Sumo (plus shipping)
$350 for a Shogun (plus shipping)
Not that I'm expecting a rush of traffic their way, but I thought I'd throw it out there in case someone wanted to take advantage of the opportunity.
It also seems to lend credence to the idea that the upgrade cost in the pledge manager probably won't be too horrific.
Had they at least delivered more then the two base boxes of the original KS in what... 3 or 4 years... I would have jumped all over this with both feet. Good luck to all who have pledged, the game is amazing, but not worth waiting over 4 years for amazing.
A would like to say good luck to you all, and congratz on the investment on the game system. It is interesting, and you can have a lot of fun with it.
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Post by: Alpharius
 Grot 6 wrote: Forar wrote:If anyone *really* wishes they'd gotten in on this campaign and missed out, FFP is offering late backer entries on their web store;
$125 for a Sumo (plus shipping)
$350 for a Shogun (plus shipping)
Not that I'm expecting a rush of traffic their way, but I thought I'd throw it out there in case someone wanted to take advantage of the opportunity.
It also seems to lend credence to the idea that the upgrade cost in the pledge manager probably won't be too horrific.
Had they at least delivered more then the two base boxes of the original KS in what... 3 or 4 years... I would have jumped all over this with both feet. Good luck to all who have pledged, the game is amazing, but not worth waiting over 4 years for amazing.
But...they actually did deliver more than that!
Admittedly, you had to pay for the "1.5 Wave Shipping" to get it, but they did!
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well, and... I appreciate how obnoxious it must be to wait on Minecart Wave 2 as an original backer, but let me tell you, its worse to have discovered this amazing system a month ago, and now have to buy it all for triple what you guys paid. :-p
Even with a delay, the game is amazing and the Shogun was an easy, easy pledge for me by the time it was clear it would, at least hit the Forest Otherworld. Hell, on the merits of the Brimstone game system I had an easier time backing it than Mythic Battles (an awesome looking, but under-proven system at the time), or Kingdom Death (awesome, if you can spare the kidney to finance it). I ultimately backed all three, but Forbidden Fortress is the only one i'm CERTAIN i'll get my money's worth out of, enjoyment-wise.
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Post by: Forar
To clarify; the cores were shipped around 1 year after the campaign, it has been just over 3 years since the campaign ended.
Wave 2 will allegedly begin shipping in late December or early January, they're just waiting on delivery of the rest of the stuff that they finished months ago.
Unlike some campaigns that say 'we're totally delivering sooooon!' (Robotech Tactics, I'm looking at you donkey caves), we know that product actually exists. As much as some backers might hate things being at retail before they're in hand, at least we know they're actually finishing things. Gencon 2015 showed off a ton of work, 2016 even moreso. Wave 1.5 was a giant pile of product.
And when questioned about the timeline, FFP flat out said that this campaign's delivery estimate included the stretch goals, and this campaign was much smaller in scope (1 core and 3 otherworlds versus 2 cores, 4 otherworlds, 6 mission packs, and considerably more enemy groups).
I mean, things happen, I'm not expecting to be opening my backer box on March 1st 2018, but while I can understand some skepticism, I find it difficult to reconcile every step closer being a step further back.
Maybe this should've waited until after wave 2 delivered. *Deity* knows everyone must be tired of talking about it.
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, not everyone!
Still, I'm really quite OK with how FFP has handled just about everything, given all that has gone on!
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Post by: Azazelx
Seriously, Forar. People are allowed to be pissed off that their second wave worth of stuff is (still coming) literally years later than initially promised. Especially when FFP has decided to go back to the well before completing their obligations for the first campaign (and just a few weeks before Christmas/over Black Friday to boot!)
Just because Kevin and RRT are fething useless doesn't mean that you need to jump on everyone who doesn't think that the sun shines out of Flying Frog's backsides. Using one of the worst and most incompetent/dishonest KS in history isn't exactly a good comparison. better than RRT? No gak. There aren't that many who aren't - especially on this scale. You may as well start defending them by saying "well, at least they aren't John Wayne Gacy!"
I do like you mate, but please ease up on the overly-aggressive water-carrying for them. It's a bit much. They don't need to be defended so constantly and aggressively against every criticism no matter how slight/major or well/undeserved.
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Post by: Forar
I'm frustrated with people lumping projects that are heavily delayed (and there is no argument that this one is heavily delayed) in with projects that are clusterfeths.
"3 or 4 years late" is a pithy way of ignoring the fact that the core boxes did start shipping within the estimate of a year, and while the 2 years since have indeed been a lengthy wait, watching people grind their teeth every time FFP does anything but promise to be moving the heavens and earth to deliver wave 2 is getting about as old as our pledge manager choices (lawl).
I'm not demanding anyone be *happy*, but some fething recognition where progress has been made shouldn't be too much to ask. People will go on at length about the vast betrayals that FFP has acted upon them, ignoring that *this gak exists*! It actually fething exists! It will hopefully start arriving on doorsteps in a period measured in months or even weeks, but still it's 'omg they didn't delivery wave 2 what has it been like a decade?'
If people are that unhappy, ask for a refund! Some people did early in the Forbidden Fortress campaign, and FFP jumped to help them out. If it's not worth asking for a refund over, why all the angst a month or three from the end of the tunnel?
Edit: and to note, all I said was that if someone wanted in on a late pledge, they could get one, and Grot jumped in to comment how disappointed they were. I'm not going to seek pardon for exchanging thoughts on the matter.
Should FFP have been a LOT more vocal a LOT earlier about the extended time this would take? YES! Are they perfect? NO! Should they have waited a year before launching this campaign once Wave 2 delivered and just shift the target to 2019 instead? MAYBE!
But sheesh, it is exasperating to be like 5 or 10 percent from the end line and have people focus on nothing but the negative. 'it's laaaate! Why is stuff at retaaaaail!? Why are you launching a new campaign even after you've explained like four times whyyyyyy!?'
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Post by: Alpharius
Has there been any word from the Frog on when the PM for this one will go live?
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Post by: Alpharius
 Alpharius wrote:Has there been any word from the Frog on when the PM for this one will go live?
Funny you should ask!
Read on for the (kinda) answer!
Update #26
Apr 7 2017
Update on Development - New Minis, Illustrations, and more!
Hello Fortress Fans!
Time for another progress report. Lots of work being done on all fronts - character and enemy design, miniature sculpting, illustration, game boards, graphic design and layouts, etc. We just attended the GAMA Trade Show in Las Vegas. While it was too soon to show off any Forbidden Fortress stuff to retailers or distributors (it won't be out until next year!), we talked to many people who are very excited about the game! Here's the scoop on what we've been working on...
The Hero portrait for the Kickstarter-exclusive Daimyo Hero Class!
The Hero portrait for the male Sorcerer!
Miniatures
Much of the work on miniatures has been finalizing figures for actual production - we showed off many sculpts during the Kickstarter campaign, but they still need a lot of work before they can go to manufacturing. Each model must be cut into separate pieces that will allow it to be cast in plastic. We need to remove any undercuts and finalize all of the details of each figure. This involves a lot of revisions and working back and forth with the miniature factory in China. We are excited to let you know that this process is underway for ALL of the models of the Forbidden Fortress Core Set and some of the figures for the Temple of Shadows Expansion! We have also been working on some new sculpts for the game. Check out a first look at some of the new enemy miniature sculpts...
An early favorite during the Kickstarter, the Thunder Warriors are powerful spirits that ride across the sky on lightning! The set includes three Large-sized miniatures on 40mm bases.
Here is a closer look at the Thunder Warrior model.
Komuso Summoners are part of the Court of the Fallen Shogun. They play their flutes to summon wicked spirits to fight the Heroes or enhance other enemies!
Here is a closer look at the Komuso Summoner model.
https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/016/178/891/185e1bd12683e76d5cb4170c518b6c08_original.jpg?w=639&fit=max&v=1491616722&auto=format&q=92&s=ad62e2e6eb9eddbc2cb99cd956e519b2
The brutal Gastral Tyrant is an XL-sized creature from the Belly of the Beast! It hunts for prey, collecting intruders to feed to its nested eggs.
Polish artist, Mariusz Gandzel, illustrates the deadly Gastral Tyrant.
Flying Frog's own Brian Snoddy illustrated a Samurai slashing through Acidic Tentacles!
For those wondering about the Pledge Manager, we are planning to launch it sometime in the Fall - to get the most up to date address info from Backers before shipping in early 2018. That's all for now.
Cheers,
Scott and Jason
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Post by: Grot 6
I wonder if 7 Demon Bags are included....
Looks good, though, no matter if they drop the ball on communication.
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First hero who can bring along 3 soliders to command.
