You always hear that Space Marine Tactical are way better than their chaotic counterpart.
The standard Chaos marine comes at 13 pts and is able to buy VotLW which is pretty much their chapter tactic although it is a bit weaker than other chapter tactics, but helps greatly in CQC granting your champion a Ld value of 10
Making him a little superior to the loyalist counter part in combat as well a hating well 40% of all the armies in the game makes a good HtH combatants and the option to exchange or add on ccw is a solid option for a chaos army. While the space marines get combat squads Chaos marines get increased numbers. And as an exchange for the grav weaponry you get to take two heavy weapons or two special weapons, and changing the plasma cannon for a autocannon and receiving marks and gifts of mutation for drop pods which is painful, because the dread claw costs a fortune. Please explain to me why are one better than others???

Droppods, gladius, atsknf, no forced challenges, grav, codex balance overall.

Forced challenges aren't always bad and instead of grav we get marks and mutations, and we get free hatred and boons if we take a traitor's hate detachment this kind of balances out the gladius stuff, but the atsnf does hurt and I donnot understand about the codex balance.

That doesn't really balance out free transports.

Honestly, what would you prefer, +1 ld, hatred vs imperium or 8 pt marines with auto-regroup, immunity to sweeps and fear? (that's how much they cost after you count in a free razorback)

Yes you are right (Although if I was playing a fluff game I would prefer hatred.) But on the flip side you can possibly get a 23pts champion turn into a 30 pts spawn or a 100+ pts daemon prince!

Chaos Marines:

Free Pros
Cost a tiny bit cheaper
Option to choose two special weapons

Pros you have to pay for (not free)
VotLW
Chaos Marks
More than 10 models per unit

Cons
No ATSKNF (can be run down, must spend a turn rallying)
Must issue/accept challenges (takes away player choice)
No free Chapter Tactics
No Combat Squads
No access to drop pods
No access to grav



Now, I certainly don't want my chaos marines to just be "Imperials with funny helmets", but there is a disparity in the codex builds. Heck, since the chaos codex was released, we have seen two newer Marine codexes and the Angels of Death update. It would certainly go a long way if all Chaos marines got VotLW and their choice of Mark for free (mimicking ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics). But we'll see what the new Traitor Legions book has for us.

 kungfujon wrote:
Chaos Marines:

Free Pros
Cost a tiny bit cheaper
Option to choose two special weapons

Pros you have to pay for (not free)
VotLW
Chaos Marks
More than 10 models per unit

Cons
No ATSKNF (can be run down, must spend a turn rallying)
Must issue/accept challenges (takes away player choice)
No free Chapter Tactics
No Combat Squads
No access to drop pods
No access to grav

CSM can take Autocannons.
C:SM can take Plasma Cannons.
I think CSM come out slightly ahead there.

C:SM do not have to take a veteran sergeant. Basically CSM are forced to pay 10 points to give their Champion +1 attack. That really hurts MSU/Shooting

Champions of Chaos is a terrible rule.

Strictly speaking, if it wasn't for 7th Marines getting the option for a Grav Cannon at 5 models, and the assorted meta-detachments they have (Gladius Scars or the Fist of Medusa force w/ Stormlance), nobody would take Tacticals, despite them being mostly better than Chaos Marines, because Scouts and Bikers are still troop options.

Thankfully, the Chaos Warband only requires two units of Chaos Marines, in exchange for everything else getting obsec/free VoTLW if I take a single Spawn. Honestly, I'll just run two 5-man melta/combi-melta teams and call it a day, and give Dirge Casters to the Rhinos as a cheapish upgrade so they can support other units for assaults, and focus the rest of the points on more Bikers/Terminators (or Chosen/Havocs if you want to do a Rhino-train, I suppose). Either way, having an entire army of Ld 10 obsec dudes does add up fast, especially since Ld modifiers are becoming more of a thing (I'd rather do 10-2=8 instead of 8-2=6...).

Chaos does get solid Bikers that are arguably as good if not better than Marines in certain aspects. Their Terminators are arguably better than the Loyalist ones, and while Raptors are also underwhelming, they're arguably better than most Assault Marines, especially with the Raptor Talon formation being a thing.

Personally storm shields make me the most salty:
15pts for a 3++ invul in exchange for no extra attack for two weapons.
If a chaos lord wants a 3++ he has to take the sigil of corruption for 40pts and dedicate himself to Tzeentch for another 15pts. Almost 4 times as expensive and it ruins the fluffiness of an army if you are running anything but Tzeentch.

There, I am done venting... For now...
Please continue.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Personally storm shields make me the most salty:
15pts for a 3++ invul in exchange for no extra attack for two weapons.
If a chaos lord wants a 3++ he has to take the sigil of corruption for 40pts and dedicate himself to Tzeentch for another 15pts. Almost 4 times as expensive and it ruins the fluffiness of an army if you are running anything but Tzeentch.

There, I am done venting... For now...
Please continue.

That math is kinda incorrect. You're taking the Sigil regardless and that makes a Lord the same price as a regular Captain. Ergo the Mark and the Shield are the same price when you consider taking them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Personally storm shields make me the most salty:
15pts for a 3++ invul in exchange for no extra attack for two weapons.
If a chaos lord wants a 3++ he has to take the sigil of corruption for 40pts and dedicate himself to Tzeentch for another 15pts. Almost 4 times as expensive and it ruins the fluffiness of an army if you are running anything but Tzeentch.

There, I am done venting... For now...
Please continue.

That math is kinda incorrect. You're taking the Sigil regardless and that makes a Lord the same price as a regular Captain. Ergo the Mark and the Shield are the same price when you consider taking them.

My apologies, forgot about a captain's 90pt cost.
Still makes it 15pts more expensive than a captain and you still have to dedicate yourself to Tzeentch.

While I'm venting I will also mention how SM elite choices get access to the ss while chaos elites only get an invul from their armour, their mark, or very rarely (and quite expensively) from daemon.

A Storm Shield costs 15.
Mark of Tzeentch costs 15.
So both the Lord and Captain cost the same to get 3++, with the Lord getting to keep his extra attack, while now being able to take a Disc for 10 points more than a regular Bike in exchange for Jetbike status (this is actually pretty useful simply from a "avoiding roadblock units" perspective) and getting another attack. Thus you're looking at 5 attacks base for a Disclord rather than 3 for a Shield Captain.
If anything, the reason you don't see Mark of Tzeentch is because of the inability for characters to join other units of different Marks (meaning you can't use Nurgle Spawn as a bodyguard), and Nurgle making you T6 and thus immune to being doubled out by S10. However, I find that ranged S10 tends to be the exception rather than the norm, and a 3++ saves versus stuff like Grav/Rending.

If there's anything to be salty about, it's the fact that every Chaos Elite slot moves like infantry, and is mostly geared either for melee or short/midrange shooting. There's no equivalent to Vanguard Veterans or Bike Command Squads. Unlike Sternguard, Chosen can only take **one** Heavy Weapon rather than two, and you don't get access to Rifleman Dreads or similar analogues. Thus, Elites tend to be an afterthought, with Termicide being the most common Elite, Chosen being a secondary option, and the occasional solo Mutilators acting as DS distractions.

How many points do you think a lord is?
65 base + 40 for sigil and + 15 for mark to make 120pts.
A captain is 90 base + 15 for ss to make 105pts.

So a captain is 15pts cheaper.

The Sigil is 25 points, not 40.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Sigil is 25 points, not 40.

Holy moly was I talking rubbish. I was adding up the sigil and the mark then adding the mark again.

God damnit, you made me look stupid!

sushi2001 wrote:
Yes you are right (Although if I was playing a fluff game I would prefer hatred.) But on the flip side you can possibly get a 23pts champion turn into a 30 pts spawn or a 100+ pts daemon prince!

You can also get things like Eternal Warrior which is pretty bad for a sergeant.

What would have been nice would have been the option to "shift" a Chaos Boon result by +- 1 if it's a bonus you already have, or for certain bonuses to have exception cases. Maybe I'll post it under proposed rules after giving it some thought (EW becomes +1 Wounds if you already have EW, or only have 1 wound or so, Hammer of Wrath becomes "an extra HoW attack", etc)

CSM squads get to take;

Bolter and bolt pistol
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon (slight extra cost)

I think all options have a place. A small melta squad can make use of bolt pistol and CCW's because when they're targeting vehicles their bolters are no use anyway. Bolters are good for units not trying to get too close to the enemy. The third option is useful for an anti infantry unit in a rhino with flame weapons, so they can flame and shoot bolters on disembarking but then have freedom in subsequent turns to act as either a CC unit or shooting unit depending on what is happening around them

I'm not saying CSM squads are as good as loyalists but it's a nice option to have

Outside of being able to take two special weapons, Tactical Marines are superior. Tactical Marines are garbage because they cannot do that and aren't taken without the free transports, and CSM Marines aren't taken because of the mandatory Champion tax which makes MSU more expensive and aren't taken without the maybe free VotLW to help alleviate morale issues (which really aren't that big a deal).

I take them in angel's blade, but they are a life support system for an init 5 power sword and a heavy flamer.

Martel732 wrote:
I take them in angel's blade, but they are a life support system for an init 5 power sword and a heavy flamer.

Which makes it a shame you guys don't get the storm. You'd be able to get your Flamer fix from that and let the Scouts get their fun.

I hope I'm not derailing the thread but before Traitors Hate I would have never taken CSM simply because Plague Marines exist, who are better in every way (also much more expensive, but it's worth it). So, if there are two units in the same slot that can do nearly/exactly the same, though one of them can do it better in every way, you won't take the other one. (PMs are of course only troops with Nurgle Lord, but in this edition all the other marks seem to be fur fluff players only... thank Nurgle I'm praying to the right god.)
As it stands, both tactical and Chaos Space Marines are taken only to fulfil a formation requirement. Yes, there are differences between them, but in the greater scheme they can be ignored, as both of them aren't very good units in the first place.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
CSM squads get to take;

Bolter and bolt pistol
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon (slight extra cost)

I'm not saying CSM squads are as good as loyalists but it's a nice option to have

I was looking for someone to mention this. Chaos Marine Tactical have more versatility.

I've seen surprisingly little talk about Drop Pods here. Even if all else was equal (which it most definitely is not) Drop Pods are miles better than Rhinos, but cost the same. So a Tactical Squad in a Drop Pod is outright superior to a CSM Squad in a Rhino (in most situations, at least).

Also, Plague Marines might be good, but they're overcosted. For 4 Points more, Triarch Praetorians get:

-+1 Strength
-AP 2 melee attacks
-AP 2 ranged attacks
-The Jump Pack unit type

and only lose:

-Poisoned Melee attacks
-Rhinos

sushi2001 wrote:
You always hear that Space Marine Tactical are way better than their chaotic counterpart.

Yup.

sushi2001 wrote:
The standard Chaos marine comes at 13 pts and is able to buy VotLW which is pretty much their chapter tactic although it is a bit weaker than other chapter tactics, but helps greatly in CQC granting your champion a Ld value of 10

How is Hatred (Space Marines) and +1 LD pretty much chapter tactics? How is having 10 LD so much better than 9 LD? I have 9% greater chance of success? So if we both roll 10 LD checks I will pass 8 and you will pass 7 except your models will act normally the next turn when they automatically regroup unless they get overrun, Oh wait that's right SM CANNOT BE OVER RUN. Meanwhile my units can get overrun and under 25% they will probably just run off the board.

sushi2001 wrote:
Making him a little superior to the loyalist counter part in combat as well a hating well 40% of all the armies in the game makes a good HtH combatants and the option to exchange or add on ccw is a solid option for a chaos army.

This statement right here lets me know you have no clue what you're talking about. SM are not 40% of the armies available in the game

sushi2001 wrote:
While the space marines get combat squads Chaos marines get increased numbers.

Sweet you mean I can have a foot slogging 20 man squad with two melta guns and have 18 bolters that are forced to fire at something they can't hurt? Why would anyone even want combat squads i mean it definitely doesn't let you take a 10 man squad split it in 2 and have a heavy weapon sit on a rear objective safely giving support fire while holding an objective mean while you can have the non heavy weapon squad move forward, avoid snap shots and take another objective.

sushi2001 wrote:
And as an exchange for the grav weaponry you get to take two heavy weapons or two special weapons, and changing the plasma cannon for a autocannon

Again you're showing your ignorance you can't get two heavy weapons, you can get 1 heavy weapon IF you have at least 10 a man squad, and in the heavy weapon slot you have some special weapons. So you can take 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon, or 2 special weapons.

sushi2001 wrote:
[R]eceiving marks and gifts of mutation for drop pods which is painful, because the dread claw costs a fortune.

CSM don't "receive" marks and GoM they BUY them you pay 10 points for GoM which may or may not be helpful. MoN is amazing, but costs 3 PPM, the other 3 are 2 PPM and range from useful but overpriced to useless and overpriced.

sushi2001 wrote:
Please explain to me why are one better than others???

Because if you upgrade SM and CSM to be equal (Relatively) you end up paying about 2 PPM more for for CSM, and that's not even including the huge amount of flexibility that TM have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phydox wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
CSM squads get to take;

Bolter and bolt pistol
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon (slight extra cost)

I'm not saying CSM squads are as good as loyalists but it's a nice option to have

I was looking for someone to mention this. Chaos Marine Tactical have more versatility.

That's like saying having a midget with a step ladder is a nice option for a basket ball team.

Bolter and Bolt Pistol= Pay for a weapon you will never use

Bolt Pistol and CCW = CC oriented squad that has no effective delivery system.

Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW = 18 PPM with VotLW and Mark upgrades.

Chaos Marines being able to take a CCW does not make up for Drop Pods and Combat Squads

 MagicJuggler wrote:
What would have been nice would have been the option to "shift" a Chaos Boon result by +- 1 if it's a bonus you already have, or for certain bonuses to have exception cases. Maybe I'll post it under proposed rules after giving it some thought (EW becomes +1 Wounds if you already have EW, or only have 1 wound or so, Hammer of Wrath becomes "an extra HoW attack", etc)

Even then the table is just terrible. Too many options that will have VERY limited use.
+1 BS?
+1 Init?
Gun has +1 strength?
Then yes plenty give you things that you might already have like:
You can get hatred on a boon, on a warlord trait, from VotLW and/or by default.
Shred on a model that already has Shred
Fleshbane on a model that already has Fleshbane
Posion on a model that already has posion or fleshbane
ID on models that already have ID
+1 save on a model with 2+ save already.

There are a few really really good ones, but most are hardly worth making a note of.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

sushi2001 wrote:
You always hear that Space Marine Tactical are way better than their chaotic counterpart.

Yup.

sushi2001 wrote:
The standard Chaos marine comes at 13 pts and is able to buy VotLW which is pretty much their chapter tactic although it is a bit weaker than other chapter tactics, but helps greatly in CQC granting your champion a Ld value of 10

How is Hatred (Space Marines) and +1 LD pretty much chapter tactics? How is having 10 LD so much better than 9 LD? I have 9% greater chance of success? So if we both roll 10 LD checks I will pass 8 and you will pass 7 except your models will act normally the next turn when they automatically regroup unless they get overrun, Oh wait that's right SM CANNOT BE OVER RUN. Meanwhile my units can get overrun and under 25% they will probably just run off the board.

sushi2001 wrote:
Making him a little superior to the loyalist counter part in combat as well a hating well 40% of all the armies in the game makes a good HtH combatants and the option to exchange or add on ccw is a solid option for a chaos army.

This statement right here lets me know you have no clue what you're talking about. SM are not 40% of the armies available in the game

sushi2001 wrote:
While the space marines get combat squads Chaos marines get increased numbers.

Sweet you mean I can have a foot slogging 20 man squad with two melta guns and have 18 bolters that are forced to fire at something they can't hurt? Why would anyone even want combat squads i mean it definitely doesn't let you take a 10 man squad split it in 2 and have a heavy weapon sit on a rear objective safely giving support fire while holding an objective mean while you can have the non heavy weapon squad move forward, avoid snap shots and take another objective.

sushi2001 wrote:
And as an exchange for the grav weaponry you get to take two heavy weapons or two special weapons, and changing the plasma cannon for a autocannon

Again you're showing your ignorance you can't get two heavy weapons, you can get 1 heavy weapon IF you have at least 10 a man squad, and in the heavy weapon slot you have some special weapons. So you can take 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon, or 2 special weapons.

sushi2001 wrote:
[R]eceiving marks and gifts of mutation for drop pods which is painful, because the dread claw costs a fortune.

CSM don't "receive" marks and GoM they BUY them you pay 10 points for GoM which may or may not be helpful. MoN is amazing, but costs 3 PPM, the other 3 are 2 PPM and range from useful but overpriced to useless and overpriced.

sushi2001 wrote:
Please explain to me why are one better than others???

Because if you upgrade SM and CSM to be equal (Relatively) you end up paying about 2 PPM more for for CSM, and that's not even including the huge amount of flexibility that TM have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phydox wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
CSM squads get to take;

Bolter and bolt pistol
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon (slight extra cost)

I'm not saying CSM squads are as good as loyalists but it's a nice option to have

I was looking for someone to mention this. Chaos Marine Tactical have more versatility.

That's like saying having a midget with a step ladder is a nice option for a basket ball team.

Bolter and Bolt Pistol= Pay for a weapon you will never use

Bolt Pistol and CCW = CC oriented squad that has no effective delivery system.

Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW = 18 PPM with VotLW and Mark upgrades.

Chaos Marines being able to take a CCW does not make up for Drop Pods and Combat Squads

Combat Squads really isn't a big bonus.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Combat Squads really isn't a big bonus.

I can agree to that. Combat Squads is not a big bonus.

You know what it is, though? A bonus. Stock, Space Marines get (for ONE POINT PER MODEL) ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Chapter Tactics.

That's not a fair trade.

I dunno about several of those examples. Other than the Black Mace (I know some people like the Nurgle Prince with this, or giving it to a Sorcerer in a Cabalstar, but I'm eh on it), there are no Fleshbane options for Chaos by default. Other than Plague Marines and Typhus, there are no Poison options for Chaos. The +1 Armor Save definitely has its use, as Chaos Marines don't get Artificer Armor for their Lords, unless they play Crimson Slaughter and use the relic pick for Daemonheart, and Terminator HQs tend to be the exception rather than the norm (though free Terminator Armor is nice for a Lord in the Annihilation Force). And none of the characters get native ID (which isn't just for character/monster-hunting, but also is useful for denying FNP) for their attacks, and Force Weapons are fairly low on the Warp Charge allocation priority.

Regarding edge-cases:

+1 Initiative is fairly useful for Marine vs Marine mirror matches, as or pursuing fleeing Xenos.
+1 BS has its use too; better grenade-tossing always has its use, or lets your Sorcerer hit stuff with Witchfires more.
+1 gun strength is more dependent on getting a worthwhile weapon; worst comes to worst, that means your Bike's TL Bolter gets Psybolt Ammo (whee), while best-case is the Burning Brand or a Chosen Plasma gun (though realistically, it's a Termicide combiplas) becoming nastier.

Anyway, when you're making two rolls free at the start of your turn, the potential is there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really though, a lot of this thread can be summarized as the classic question: Is it a bonus if it doesn't get used?

Combat Squads is largely academic since competitive play favors MSU, making larger squads mostly pointless as the points spent on bodies could be used to buy another unit/grab a free transport in the process. Strictly speaking, Tacticals are better but that doesn't make them good. It's formations like the Gladius or other force multipliers that give them their strength; contrast Khan granting Scout to his army, versus Huron granting D3 infiltrations and having a funky melee weapon...and Huron is the utility character for Chaos! Most every Chaos character is a different flavor of melee beatstick, with some special variant of funky wardance. The question is do you like it choppy, scythy, speedy/whippy, or wizardy.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I've seen surprisingly little talk about Drop Pods here. Even if all else was equal (which it most definitely is not) Drop Pods are miles better than Rhinos, but cost the same. So a Tactical Squad in a Drop Pod is outright superior to a CSM Squad in a Rhino (in most situations, at least).

Also, Plague Marines might be good, but they're overcosted. For 4 Points more, Triarch Praetorians get:

-+1 Strength
-AP 2 melee attacks
-AP 2 ranged attacks
-The Jump Pack unit type

and only lose:

-Poisoned Melee attacks
-Rhinos

To be fair, you are comparing them to Necrons, the byword for resilience nowadays and Plague Marines are taken as troops, almost never as elites, unlike Praetorians. Also, Plague Marines roles and Praetorians are completely different. Plague Marines are sturdy objective holders with decent melee and medium ranged damage with plasma gun upgrades while Praetorians are mobile units that search out weak units to bully and harass. What plague marines need is for their Icon of Despair to give them shrouded rather than fear and more options for plague weaponry, like a bile spewer.

True, they don't have any option to be taken as troops. (But their formation ain't that bad, so...)

Overall, though, Plague Marines could use a points drop/Praetorians a points hike.

 JNAProductions wrote:
True, they don't have any option to be taken as troops. (But their formation ain't that bad, so...)

Overall, though, Plague Marines could use a points drop/Praetorians a points hike.

Praetorians are fine at their price point, making them any higher would make them go poof from any lists. It's not like they're taking the tournament world by storm in any means.

Unfortunately, GW's holdover of cult marines as troops has made them underperform as elite units since making them too strong would make normal CSM pointless. They really have to make sure they each have a distinct niche they fill and go full ham on that and ignore the troops aspect now that formations are a thing. Noise Marines should be about their sonic weaponry (surprised they don't come with their guns base which really should have dual profile options like the blast master: one salvo, the other assault), Berserkers need to have their CC oomph back again rather than be slightly more skilled CSM (give them gladiatorial weapons or widespread access to PW like Death Company amongst other things like 2 base attacks), Plague Marines need to double down on resilience with other poison effects and Thousands Sons are already getting more weapons options and likely psychic powers for their sorcerers. They effectively need to FEEL like actual elites.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Combat Squads really isn't a big bonus.

With combat squads you get.

-The ability to avoid having to snap shoot Heavy Weapons.

-The ability to place Heavy Weapons in safer areas.

-The ability to hold two objectives with one squad.

-The ability to minimize overkill vs certain units.

-The ability to minimize ineffective fire. (Being forced to shoot bolters at AV11+)

You're totally right not an advantage at all. I mean how much of a difference is hitting on 6+ to hitting on 3+, and how important is it to have your more expensive modals in a semi-safe area where they can stay alive for most the game. Holding objectives is almost useless. When I think an effective use of fire I think shooting an autocannon a plasma gun and 4 bolters at a single TM, or shooting 8 bolters at a fething rhino.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Combat Squads really isn't a big bonus.

With combat squads you get.

-The ability to avoid having to snap shoot Heavy Weapons.

-The ability to place Heavy Weapons in safer areas.

-The ability to hold two objectives with one squad.

-The ability to minimize overkill vs certain units.

-The ability to minimize ineffective fire. (Being forced to shoot bolters at AV11+)

You're totally right not an advantage at all. I mean how much of a difference is hitting on 6+ to hitting on 3+, and how important is it to have your more expensive modals in a semi-safe area where they can stay alive for most the game. Holding objectives is almost useless. When I think an effective use of fire I think shooting an autocannon a plasma gun and 4 bolters at a single TM, or shooting 8 bolters at a fething rhino.

You're wasting your breath unfortunately, none of the loyalist players even know what heavy weapons that aren't a grav cannon do anymore.

 Drasius wrote:
You're wasting your breath unfortunately, none of the loyalist players even know what heavy weapons that aren't a grav cannon do anymore.

Yeah I know. It be nice if they would say "you're right, all of our gak is better then yours, and less expensive, and that needs to change."

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Combat Squads really isn't a big bonus.

With combat squads you get.

-The ability to avoid having to snap shoot Heavy Weapons.

-The ability to place Heavy Weapons in safer areas.

-The ability to hold two objectives with one squad.

-The ability to minimize overkill vs certain units.

-The ability to minimize ineffective fire. (Being forced to shoot bolters at AV11+)

You're totally right not an advantage at all. I mean how much of a difference is hitting on 6+ to hitting on 3+, and how important is it to have your more expensive modals in a semi-safe area where they can stay alive for most the game. Holding objectives is almost useless. When I think an effective use of fire I think shooting an autocannon a plasma gun and 4 bolters at a single TM, or shooting 8 bolters at a fething rhino.

1. Or you just get 5 man squads in the first place. If you're using 10 man squads you'd much rather have the two Special Weapons.
2. What overkill?
3. Once again this is attributed to just taking 5 man squads.

The rule has literally two uses I've found in even a remotely okay manner.
1.Skyhammer to pin more units
2. Carcharodon Tactical Marines, half with just the CCW's and Melta and Combi-Melta, and then the other half with Bolters and Grav Cannon and squad right after the drop.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
a 3++ saves versus stuff like Grav/Rending

Spawns allready don't care about grav/rending.

There's just not much you're getting out of MoT. Yep, your character becomes somewhat better vs high st low ap non-s10 shooting. But than he's forced to stick with unmarked guyz. The best option here is probably cultists + a bunch of sorcs to make them invisible and soulswap them left and right. But than you're too short on points to actually take this tzeench lord cause you're allready running 5 sorcs, Kharn to kill stuff and probably Cypher or Huron/Ahriman. Lord doesn't need a to of durability in this setup. Heck, you don't need lord in this setup.

Whereas Nurgle lord is free to join nurgle spawns - the best unit in the dex - and has def nades. A khornelord is free to join kdk khornedogs and has AoBF - another wonderful option. Slaanesh lord is free to go please himself.

So, MoT can be neat for a character as you can make a fairly resilient fairly choppy lord - but than MoN and MoK are just better overall.

I agree MoN is the go-to Mark for a Lord just because Toughness 6, but I'm also finding that there are enough threats out there that don't care about toughness, where I would rather have the 3++ and in the off-chance I feel like using Sinistrum, a 3++ reroll is cute). I imagine taking the Skull of Eternal Warrior could also be an option, if points are something you don't care too much about.

I use a Tzeentch Lord as much for the fun of it as much as the utility. He's a Jetbike. Granted, Chaos doesn't get Jetbike units so the problem with a Disc is he doesn't get an ideal escort to work with. However, I find I like to split off my ICs from their units anyway/play "solo"-MSUhammer, and a T5 Obsec Jetbike has its uses, while being able to bully choice units and ignoring intervening screening chaff.

On the fun-not as competitive side, I like the Scrolls of Magnus. Call me paranoid but the fact you can't take more than one Sorcerer in a Warband means I am leery about adding the 2nd Sorcerer as a Command Choice, since it wouldn't get Favored Scions. That ability is as much insurance against an inopportune transform as much as it is letting me get Moar powers. And my rationale is that 4 of the 5 Primaris powers from Scrolls are worth getting (even Smite becomes somewhat attractive when you're BS 5 instead of 4), and the potential for stuff like Warp Speed, Iron Arm, etc, is always appreciated.

PS: Unless GW FAQ'd it (which somehow I doubt), there's nothing preventing an IC with a Mark from joining a unit with "Daemon of" another alignment, or vice-versa. So technically, there's nothing preventing a Sorcerer of Slaanesh from joining a unit of Flesh Hounds to grant them Acute Senses, or nothing preventing a Herald of Khorne from joining a unit of Nurgle Obliterators to grant them Blood For The Blood God.

I haven't used the combat squad rule since before 5th ed. It's useless. Non-grav heavy weapons in tac squads are also useless, which is a big reason combat squads is useless. Although the real reason is 5 man squads maximize Rhino saturation and minimizes how many models get stranded when a Rhino is knocked out.

Mark the day! I agree with Martel732

Combat Squad, while free for C:SM, is a pointless arguement for why C:SM are better than CSM. I understand ATSKNF being busted af for 1pt (as well as CT on top of it). But please stop bringing up Combat Squads. Any competitive aspect of 40k will laugh at you if you roll up with 10man Tacticals only to Combat Squad them. Sorry for being blunt. Haha.

Combat Squads + Formation Bonuses + Meta-detachment bonuses. While universal Ld 10 is nice, and free Chaos boons are cute, the advantages are generally more localized and don't scale as well at higher point-value games.

For example, a Fist of Medusa Force can run a Stormlance Demi-Company. In exchange for costing one point more than vanilla Chaos Marines, and not getting Obsec, the Loyalists get:
>All vehicles within 12" of an IC get POTMS
>All vehicles and Characters get IWND
>All models get +1 to FNP, or +2 if within 12" of an IC. A Bike Command Squad escorting a Captain has 3+ FNP.

The core formation now gets:
>Reroll to-hit units that control objectives. (Vehicles get this too, so the Lascannon on Lasplas Razorbacks could get rerolls too)
>Move-After-Fire, for Bikes/Infantry/Transports. Infantry can re-embark after firing.

If "Path to Glory" allowed multiple Boons based on how many HQs you took (1 roll, plus 1 for every HQ choice in this detachment), or there were more bonuses allowing HQs/Champs to take free Wargear upgrades, I could see running all 1850 points in this detachment. As is, I put about 1450-something points in the Warband/Spawn, and add Daemon allies.

Saythings wrote:
Mark the day! I agree with Martel732

Combat Squad, while free for C:SM, is a pointless arguement for why C:SM are better than CSM. I understand ATSKNF being busted af for 1pt (as well as CT on top of it). But please stop bringing up Combat Squads. Any competitive aspect of 40k will laugh at you if you roll up with 10man Tacticals only to Combat Squad them. Sorry for being blunt. Haha.

I didn't know we disagreed so much.

Frankly, I'm finding ATSKNF to not be so useful anymore either. Living to get the assault off is the single biggest challenge. That's really the problem with CSM. The raptor assault from DS thing is pretty good though.

I think CSM compare very favorably to BA at this point. There are very, very specific things about vanilla loyalists that put them over the top. Like say an entire army of hit and run. And neither CSM nor BA have any of them.

I pretty much agree with most of what Martel is saying. Several of the TH formations gave a major lifeline to Chaos to the point I'd argue they're very much a "middle of the road" army, and as long as it's not something like a Blue Scars Battle Company, or Medusa Stormlance or certain Bike/Wolf builds, they're not too far off from Vanilla Marines.

CAD-to-CAD, Chaos has its issues but this isn't as much about granular differences between Tacticals and CSM, or other analogues, as much as it is the Chaos FOC being more "monorole" ("All long-range shooting is in Heavy Support. All fast units are in Fast Attack"), and not getting stuff like Bike Troops or analogues for Attack Bikes, Razorbacks, or Rifledreads within their respective FOC slots.

Some of this can be worked around through other means (Daemon/Necron allies, Psychic support, etc), but out-of-the-box, the Chaos toolbox is more limited and you have to resort to increasingly gamey shenanigans.

The reason ATSKNF is so good is because (short of falling back and running off the board) it's better than fearless. It also forces enemies to kill all 5 marines.

I'll elaborate - Fearless models have to be killed down to the man to remove them of objectives/Linebreaker, etc.

Both Fearless and ATSKNF models both can't be swept. However, it does allow marines pseudo-HnR if they fail their morale. Also, it also opens up "Our Weapons are Useless" options to try to get out of combats with some Super Heavies.

This allows some opportunities of shooting that Fearless models never get the chance (window of opportunity) to have.

This allows marines to Go-To-Ground take the +1 cover, fail a morale check, get up off the ground, and act normally the following turn. Fearless don't get this option.

I would argue - and some might disagree - that ATSKNF is even better than Fearless as it allows more options/opportunities. None of which are reliable but every "down side" to not have fearless vs ATSKNF is viewed as a benefit to me.

Short of end game objective control - getting shot at, failing a LD8, and falling back on the VERY last turn (with time restrictions being a factor) - ATSKNF is better than Fearless.

If the game does go on, they get to act normally, hop back on the objective, and get a turn of shooting/assaulting again.

I recently had a discussion at a local about ATSKNF being better than fearless. I'm sure there are some points that I've forgetting - let me know! IMO - ATSKNF has all the benefits of being fearless with none of the drawbacks - (Short of failing that LD8 on the last round of the game while holding an objective).

Saythings wrote:
ATSKNF is better than fearless

It's slightly better, but both are SO much better than nothing, and most of CSM has nothing. C:SM get ATSKNF blanket on everything while CSM pay a point and slot premium for models that have fearless.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I agree MoN is the go-to Mark for a Lord just because Toughness 6, but I'm also finding that there are enough threats out there that don't care about toughness, where I would rather have the 3++ and in the off-chance I feel like using Sinistrum, a 3++ reroll is cute). I imagine taking the Skull of Eternal Warrior could also be an option, if points are something you don't care too much about.

I use a Tzeentch Lord as much for the fun of it as much as the utility. He's a Jetbike. Granted, Chaos doesn't get Jetbike units so the problem with a Disc is he doesn't get an ideal escort to work with. However, I find I like to split off my ICs from their units anyway/play "solo"-MSUhammer, and a T5 Obsec Jetbike has its uses, while being able to bully choice units and ignoring intervening screening chaff.

On the fun-not as competitive side, I like the Scrolls of Magnus. Call me paranoid but the fact you can't take more than one Sorcerer in a Warband means I am leery about adding the 2nd Sorcerer as a Command Choice, since it wouldn't get Favored Scions. That ability is as much insurance against an inopportune transform as much as it is letting me get Moar powers. And my rationale is that 4 of the 5 Primaris powers from Scrolls are worth getting (even Smite becomes somewhat attractive when you're BS 5 instead of 4), and the potential for stuff like Warp Speed, Iron Arm, etc, is always appreciated.

PS: Unless GW FAQ'd it (which somehow I doubt), there's nothing preventing an IC with a Mark from joining a unit with "Daemon of" another alignment, or vice-versa. So technically, there's nothing preventing a Sorcerer of Slaanesh from joining a unit of Flesh Hounds to grant them Acute Senses, or nothing preventing a Herald of Khorne from joining a unit of Nurgle Obliterators to grant them Blood For The Blood God.

Some interesting points, really. Especially the scrollsof Magnus! I'm bound to run it on a lord now. Granted i prefer to buff him first, it's no long till he gets something like fnp or +1 wound.

You can't join Daemons of any alignment unless you're of the same alignment. (Unless they're Fearless rather than Daemonically Unstable, so KDK only.)

I meant KDK specifically, which is why I used the example of a Khorne Herald for purposes of granting Blood for the Blood God. I've contemplated a Gorepack as a hypothetical formation for certain Fiendspam lists, simply so I could Outflank the Warpsmith tax, but I remember how Outflank could be defeated in 5e by lining a table edge, so I'm leery about Outflank that doesn't come on a Tank or Skimmer/Jetbike.

IMO Combat Squads is super useful, since you can drop two units out of a single Drop Pod. Also you can reorganize your fighting units at the beginning of every game.

ATSKNF is also still a huge boost. Can't be run down, regroup automatically, move and fire at full effect or assault after regrouping.


IMO Chaos Marines are better used as cheaper supporting units, or as Character reinforced "attack blobs". With Traitors Hate, I'd be looking to make big squads shielding nasty characters, and moved across the table with spells. I'm really curious to see how the Legions book turns out. There might be some really good opportunities with that.

I'd rather drop two squads of five.

Especially when they are 2 free drop pods for the same points. HAHA... oh GW.

You can't get primaris powers form the scrolls. They specifically state:".. you cannot swap to the primaris power.."

Saythings wrote:
Especially when they are 2 free drop pods for the same points. HAHA... oh GW.

Well, BA can't do that, but still.

 Roknar wrote:
You can't get primaris powers form the scrolls. They specifically state:".. you cannot swap to the primaris power.."

Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus stack.

Martel732 wrote:

Saythings wrote:
Especially when they are 2 free drop pods for the same points. HAHA... oh GW.

Well, BA can't do that, but still.

For sure, OP was comparing Codex SM though

Martel732 wrote:
I'd rather drop two squads of five.

In a Battle Company with free Transports, sure. In any other setup you're saving 35 points and getting more marines on the table faster since you are only getting half your pods on the first turn. You drop either the padding with min squads, or the meat with more Marines per Pod for weight of numbers. 10 man Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav Cannon.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd rather drop two squads of five.

In a Battle Company with free Transports, sure. In any other setup you're saving 35 points and getting more marines on the table faster since you are only getting half your pods on the first turn. You drop either the padding with min squads, or the meat with more Marines per Pod for weight of numbers. 10 man Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav Cannon.

I'd rather have the pods to get more locator beacons on the table. I'm never going to put 10 men in a pod.

And I've never used a Locator Beacon. To each their own.

I suppose, but i'm still going with combat squads as a non- advantage.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
You can't get primaris powers form the scrolls. They specifically state:".. you cannot swap to the primaris power.."

Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus stack.

I suppose so, but to keep psychic focus you would have to either not gain new powers or pray real hard you roll on the same discipline again.
At 45 points it would be quite a waste not to get more powers imho, unless you get super lucky and get a power you plan on casting every turn.
There's a slim chance to stay in the same discipline and gaining a new spell from a different discipline will cause you to loose psychic focus and with it, the primaris.

Plus the good primaris' don't use the increased BS. If you could choose a discipline and then roll it would be more interesting, but it's just a bit too random for my tastes.

Fair enough. Either way, the fact the Lord is ML 1 means that he can only cast one power per turn anyway.

If I get Shriek, I can probably stop rolling and call it good. Prescience has its uses, especially if I'm going down a Termicide route. Smite basically is a trade: 2 WC for 2 dead MEQ on average (or one dead Jinking Jetbike). It's nice to keep if I'm up against a T3 army (every little bit helps), but it's at that point I'm cool rolling for another power.

That said, the *potential* for the cool powers is also neat. It's one of those things where I won't base a strategy on getting that one power off, but the extra options in-game can add up with some chance improvisation. *shrug*

Martel732 wrote:
I suppose, but i'm still going with combat squads as a non- advantage.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I suppose, but i'm still going with combat squads as a non- advantage.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

Except it really isnt...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I suppose, but i'm still going with combat squads as a non- advantage.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

Except it really isnt...

Why is it not? You get more flexibility and last I checked that was good.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I suppose, but i'm still going with combat squads as a non- advantage.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

Except it really isnt...

Why is it not? You get more flexibility and last I checked that was good.

Flexibility doesn't mean much if it doesn't even get used. It just becomes part of the cost of the unit you didn't want.
Are you suggesting that giving Combat squad to Chaos Tactical Marines would make them better? It doesn't. At all. That's how you know a rule isn't worth anything.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I suppose, but i'm still going with combat squads as a non- advantage.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

Explain how it is a real advantage.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I suppose, but i'm still going with combat squads as a non- advantage.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

Except it really isnt...

Why is it not? You get more flexibility and last I checked that was good.

Flexibility doesn't mean much if it doesn't even get used. It just becomes part of the cost of the unit you didn't want.

Yeah, how dare Marine have Combat Squads! It costs them less than a point! They might as well not get it and be the same cost or 1 point cheaper so they're the same cost as Chaos Marines but with more benefits!


It might only be a slight advantage, but it is one. Especially since you're basically getting it for free.

I will admit that's it's such a small advantage it's hardly worth calling foul over, but to call it an non-advantage or to say it actually hinders the squad by making it cost more is just incorrect.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I suppose, but i'm still going with combat squads as a non- advantage.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

Except it really isnt...

Why is it not? You get more flexibility and last I checked that was good.

Flexibility doesn't mean much if it doesn't even get used. It just becomes part of the cost of the unit you didn't want.

Yeah, how dare Marine have Combat Squads! It costs them less than a point! They might as well not get it and be the same cost or 1 point cheaper so they're the same cost as Chaos Marines but with more benefits!


It might only be a slight advantage, but it is one. Especially since you're basically getting it for free.

I will admit that's it's such a small advantage it's hardly worth calling foul over, but to call it an non-advantage or to say it actually hinders the squad by making it cost more is just incorrect.

If I could even pay .1 point less per Marine to lose the rule I would without a second thought. That's your proof it is a useless rule.

Hell it could be removed from Loyalist Marines and nobody would miss it.

Yeah our (loyalist) stuff is way better no doubt. Luckily I play BT so I get Crusader Squads too which make tacs look dumb in comparison. Sorry, probably not helping matters.

Martel732 wrote:
Explain how it is a real advantage.

With combat squads you get.

-The ability to avoid having to snap shoot Heavy Weapons.

-The ability to place Heavy Weapons in safer areas.

-The ability to hold two objectives with one squad.

-The ability to minimize overkill vs certain units.

-The ability to minimize ineffective fire. (Being forced to shoot bolters at AV11+)

You're totally right not an advantage at all. I mean how much of a difference is hitting on 6+ to hitting on 3+, and how important is it to have your more expensive modals in a semi-safe area where they can stay alive for most the game. Holding objectives is almost useless. When I think an effective use of fire I think shooting an autocannon a plasma gun and 4 bolters at a single TM, or shooting 8 bolters at a fething rhino.

I think the counterargument, TSS, is you can do similar to the above by instead buying a couple of 5 man squads instead.

Personally I like combat squads. I like to mark one marine out with a slightly different paintjob to play the role of 'combat squad veteran leader'... He gets to make the calls then Serg is off on one!

Combat squads are super useful on devastators in skyhammer. 4 gravcannons is often an overkill + it's a good idea to have relatively cheap bullet catchers. So, you get a squad of 10 and than divide them to get 2 gravcannons each.

It was also widely used in Ultramarine tac spam lists before the codex update. You had 6 full units of marines dropping in 6 obsec pods. + Calgar to make them fail or pass ld at will. Mind you, this list came 2-d in...BAO or something. It was also a neat trick for raven guard with scouting rhinos.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If I could even pay .1 point less per Marine to lose the rule I would without a second thought. That's your proof it is a useless rule.

That's some solid reasoning if I ever heard it. . . . /sarcasm

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hell it could be removed from Loyalist Marines and nobody would miss it.

I would miss it. So that's at least one.

nareik wrote:
I think the counterargument, TSS, is you can do similar to the above by instead buying a couple of 5 man squads instead.

Sort of, but when building with Formations the limitations become more restrictive. You're not free to just add extra Tactical Squads, Demi-Co just has 3. Combat Squads allow you to get more bang with the cost of only a single transport, which is very useful in lower point games. The Formation limitation is particularly highlighted with Devastators, which are limited to only one squad in a Demi-Co. You can't just add another Devastator Squad willy nilly.

. . .

Anyways, back to Chaos Marines and their comparison to Loyalists. The corresponding "Demi-Co" Formation from Traitors Hate is far more flexible than the Loyalist Demi-Companies, meaning that for Chaos at least, they actually can just add another squad. Instead of a fixed 3 Tacticals, its 2-6 Chaos Marine Squads. Instead of a single squad of Devastators, it's 1-3 squads of Havocs. Huge benefit, IMO.

nareik wrote:
I think the counterargument, TSS, is you can do similar to the above by instead buying a couple of 5 man squads instead.

Personally I like combat squads. I like to mark one marine out with a slightly different paint job to play the role of 'combat squad veteran leader'... He gets to make the calls then Serg is off on one!

except you can't. CSM NEED 10 men in a squad to be able to take 1 heavy weapon so for me to get 2 heavy weapons I need 20 CSM 18 of which are attached to a heavy weapon.

let's look at an example. Let's take 30 CSM and 30 TM each with 2 heavy weapon, and employ them in the best way possible.

So the CSM has to take two units of 10 to get the two heavy weapons and can then take 2 units of 5 and we will assume 10 points per heavy weapon which comes to 450 points total

The SM player does something similar except he brings 3 units of 10 gets 2 10 point heavy weapons and pays for the VS for each so he now has 3 5 man squad without a VS and 3 with, He pays 450 points total

So the CSM player has 1 VS that helps 1 squad, you have ATSKNF, and Chapter Tactics both of which affect every unit, if I take a mark on each model and VotLW I am now paying 2-3 points more per modal that's 60 to 90 points more, but lets leave that aside for now.

Let's look at the deployment of these squads. The CSM player has 4 squads but he has an issue his two big squads which are best for holding a forward objective have a heavy weapon which you don't want in a forward position.

Meanwhile the SM player can take his two 5 man squads with heavy weapons and put them in a high place where they can provide support for either unit, and be in relative safety while having two 5 man squads on each objective, or put 15 men on 1 objective and 5 on another, or put 5 on each objective and have two 5 man squads to act as an offensive/response force.

 koooaei wrote:
Combat squads are super useful on devastators in skyhammer. 4 gravcannons is often an overkill + it's a good idea to have relatively cheap bullet catchers. So, you get a squad of 10 and than divide them to get 2 gravcannons each.

It was also widely used in Ultramarine tac spam lists before the codex update. You had 6 full units of marines dropping in 6 obsec pods. + Calgar to make them fail or pass ld on will. Mind you, this list came 2-d in...BAO or something. It was also a neat trick for raven guard with scouting rhinos.

I'll agree on the skyhammer point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Explain how it is a real advantage.

With combat squads you get.

-The ability to avoid having to snap shoot Heavy Weapons.

-The ability to place Heavy Weapons in safer areas.

-The ability to hold two objectives with one squad.

-The ability to minimize overkill vs certain units.

-The ability to minimize ineffective fire. (Being forced to shoot bolters at AV11+)

You're totally right not an advantage at all. I mean how much of a difference is hitting on 6+ to hitting on 3+, and how important is it to have your more expensive modals in a semi-safe area where they can stay alive for most the game. Holding objectives is almost useless. When I think an effective use of fire I think shooting an autocannon a plasma gun and 4 bolters at a single TM, or shooting 8 bolters at a fething rhino.

First two points: Don't give non-relentless models heavy weapons. I don't, and I have combat squads
Third point: Buy two squads.
Fourth point: There is no overkill with boltguns
Fifth point: Boltguns are already ineffective; and don't give you tac squads or whatever CSM have anti-tank weapons.

This combat squad discussion got nasty real fast. HAHA.

I think the imperial side is saying: having combat squad doesn't change their list builds. It is smarter, cheaper, and min-maxes better if you just run 5man instead of 10man (and combat squad later).

Yes, you "can" combat squad a 10man squad in a pod and have 2 5mans pop out. But no heavy weapons are worth it short of a Grav Cannon. But that's a rather large investment of points on 3 shots of AP2 on the turn you DS in. That and it's a 12" range on that turn so that unit will die in return (most likely).

Other than that specific scenario, spamming special weapons in 5man squads always seems more ideal competitively.

It's not a matter of is combat squad good, bad, advantage, disadvantage, non-advantage - it's more of a rule that never gets used. A similar comparison is every Salamander Character gets a free Master-crafted weapon. The only weapon that doesn't have MC or TL on Vulcan He'Stan himself is his Bolt Pistol. Yes - you can give him a MC Bolt Pistol as per rules - yay. But you will always be using his Heavy Flamer (which is TL via Salamanders CTs). Also his 2h weapon is MC already. This is a crude example, but having an 'upgrade' or rule that doesn't come into play is a 'non-advantage' when you are comparing 2 units (CSM marines and C:SM Tacticals).

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

nareik wrote:
I think the counterargument, TSS, is you can do similar to the above by instead buying a couple of 5 man squads instead.

Personally I like combat squads. I like to mark one marine out with a slightly different paint job to play the role of 'combat squad veteran leader'... He gets to make the calls then Serg is off on one!

except you can't. CSM NEED 10 men in a squad to be able to take 1 heavy weapon so for me to get 2 heavy weapons I need 20 CSM 18 of which are attached to a heavy weapon.

let's look at an example. Let's take 30 CSM and 30 TM each with 2 heavy weapon, and employ them in the best way possible.

So the CSM has to take two units of 10 to get the two heavy weapons and can then take 2 units of 5 and we will assume 10 points per heavy weapon which comes to 450 points total

The SM player does something similar except he brings 3 units of 10 gets 2 10 point heavy weapons and pays for the VS for each so he now has 3 5 man squad without a VS and 3 with, He pays 450 points total

So the CSM player has 1 VS that helps 1 squad, you have ATSKNF, and Chapter Tactics both of which affect every unit, if I take a mark on each model and VotLW I am now paying 2-3 points more per modal that's 60 to 90 points more, but lets leave that aside for now.

Let's look at the deployment of these squads. The CSM player has 4 squads but he has an issue his two big squads which are best for holding a forward objective have a heavy weapon which you don't want in a forward position.

Meanwhile the SM player can take his two 5 man squads with heavy weapons and put them in a high place where they can provide support for either unit, and be in relative safety while having two 5 man squads on each objective, or put 15 men on 1 objective and 5 on another, or put 5 on each objective and have two 5 man squads to act as an offensive/response force.

Then don't buy Heavy Weapons for Chaos Tactical Marines? They get two specials. It isn't my fault if you want to do the special snowflake Flamer + Missile Launcher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If I could even pay .1 point less per Marine to lose the rule I would without a second thought. That's your proof it is a useless rule.

That's some solid reasoning if I ever heard it. . . . /sarcasm

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hell it could be removed from Loyalist Marines and nobody would miss it.

I would miss it. So that's at least one.

nareik wrote:
I think the counterargument, TSS, is you can do similar to the above by instead buying a couple of 5 man squads instead.

Sort of, but when building with Formations the limitations become more restrictive. You're not free to just add extra Tactical Squads, Demi-Co just has 3. Combat Squads allow you to get more bang with the cost of only a single transport, which is very useful in lower point games. The Formation limitation is particularly highlighted with Devastators, which are limited to only one squad in a Demi-Co. You can't just add another Devastator Squad willy nilly.

. . .

Anyways, back to Chaos Marines and their comparison to Loyalists. The corresponding "Demi-Co" Formation from Traitors Hate is far more flexible than the Loyalist Demi-Companies, meaning that for Chaos at least, they actually can just add another squad. Instead of a fixed 3 Tacticals, its 2-6 Chaos Marine Squads. Instead of a single squad of Devastators, it's 1-3 squads of Havocs. Huge benefit, IMO.

Seeing as you're already taking 6 squads in a Demi-Company with free transports, who cares if you can't add more? You're already at SIX squads.

Everyone needs a reality check that Imperial heavy weapons other than grav suck. They just do. It's dumb to me that CSM don't have grav, but this means that CSM heavy weapons are all bad. So don't use bad things. Especially on non-relentless platforms.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

except you can't. CSM NEED 10 men in a squad to be able to take 1 heavy weapon so for me to get 2 heavy weapons I need 20 CSM 18 of which are attached to a heavy weapon.

That's a really good point, actually.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Seeing as you're already taking 6 squads in a Demi-Company with free transports, who cares if you can't add more? You're already at SIX squads.

How am I taking six squads with free Transports in a Demi-Company?

Not every army is a full Battle Company. Only the full Battle Company gets free transports. At lower points, or if you're going to take a Conclave or other expensive Auxilliary, the full Battle Co. becomes quite limiting.

Unless you're saying that I'm getting six Tactical Squads in a Demi-Company. . . because I'm Combat Squadding them!

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone needs a reality check that Imperial heavy weapons other than grav suck. They just do. It's dumb to me that CSM don't have grav, but this means that CSM heavy weapons are all bad. So don't use bad things. Especially on non-relentless platforms.

Lascannons are still solid rear-field choices in numbers, especially with Doctrine re-rolls, or as Imperial Fist Tank Hunters. Multimeltas in particular are good in the Skyhammer. Heavy Plasma Gun is fun on Legion of the Damned since they Ignore Cover.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

except you can't. CSM NEED 10 men in a squad to be able to take 1 heavy weapon so for me to get 2 heavy weapons I need 20 CSM 18 of which are attached to a heavy weapon.

That's a really good point, actually.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Seeing as you're already taking 6 squads in a Demi-Company with free transports, who cares if you can't add more? You're already at SIX squads.

How am I taking six squads with free Transports in a Demi-Company?

Not every army is a full Battle Company. Only the full Battle Company gets free transports. At lower points, or if you're going to take a Conclave or other expensive Auxilliary, the full Battle Co. becomes quite limiting.

Unless you're saying that I'm getting six Tactical Squads in a Demi-Company. . . because I'm Combat Squadding them!

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone needs a reality check that Imperial heavy weapons other than grav suck. They just do. It's dumb to me that CSM don't have grav, but this means that CSM heavy weapons are all bad. So don't use bad things. Especially on non-relentless platforms.

Lascannons are still solid rear-field choices in numbers, especially with Doctrine re-rolls, or as Imperial Fist Tank Hunters. Multimeltas in particular are good in the Skyhammer. Heavy Plasma Gun is fun on Legion of the Damned since they Ignore Cover.

I'm talking about Gladius my bad.

Plus Tactical Marines are garbage outside of it, so in lower point games you're using Scouts and/or Bikers. So I don't see what point you're making.

"Lascannons are still solid rear-field choices in numbers, especially with Doctrine re-rolls, or as Imperial Fist Tank Hunters. Multimeltas in particular are good in the Skyhammer. Heavy Plasma Gun is fun on Legion of the Damned since they Ignore Cover."

You have to tack on additional rules to make the weapons good. That's not the same as the weapon itself being good.

Saythings wrote:
A similar comparison is every Salamander Character gets a free Master-crafted weapon. The only weapon that doesn't have MC or TL on Vulcan He'Stan himself is his Bolt Pistol. Yes - you can give him a MC Bolt Pistol as per rules - yay. But you will always be using his Heavy Flamer (which is TL via Salamanders CTs)

he can master-craft his krak grenade.

If you're running the Salamander Decurion, his Heavy Flamer is S6 anyway.

 koooaei wrote:

Saythings wrote:
A similar comparison is every Salamander Character gets a free Master-crafted weapon. The only weapon that doesn't have MC or TL on Vulcan He'Stan himself is his Bolt Pistol. Yes - you can give him a MC Bolt Pistol as per rules - yay. But you will always be using his Heavy Flamer (which is TL via Salamanders CTs)

he can master-craft his krak grenade.

He's using a MC Relic Blade though haha!

He can't throw his blade at a rhino, can he?

 koooaei wrote:
He can't throw his blade at a rhino, can he?

It IS a spear. Those are designed to be thrown...

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you're running the Salamander Decurion, his Heavy Flamer is S6 anyway.

And? Lol. This got off track fast. Haha. Combat Squad is pointless - similar to MC Kraks or MC Bolt Pistols when there are better weapons. Just because you have the option to rules doesn't make them better.

The main use I see for Combat Squads is fitting two squads in one transport. It's niche-but it's good.

Martel732 wrote:

First two points: Don't give non-relentless models heavy weapons. I don't, and I have combat squads
Third point: Buy two squads.
Fourth point: There is no overkill with boltguns
Fifth point: Boltguns are already ineffective; and don't give you tac squads or whatever CSM have anti-tank weapons.

1.) why shouldn't I give non-relentless models heavy weapons? Because you said so?

2.) Which limits me to 30 models and 0 heavy weapons

3.) So shooting 3 termagants/Guardsman/Boyz with 10 bolter shots would not be overkill?

4.) Boltguns are plenty effective against what they need to be effective against. If I did that then I would get flamers and plasma only.

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone needs a reality check that Imperial heavy weapons other than grav suck. They just do. It's dumb to me that CSM don't have grav, but this means that CSM heavy weapons are all bad. So don't use bad things. Especially on non-relentless platforms.

You have to tack on additional rules to make the weapons good. That's not the same as the weapon itself being good.

The weapons are mostly designed for specific targets, Heavy Bolters are good for horde, Lascannons are good for Tanks/MC, adding things like TH/MH make them better not good, unless you think that bringing a single lascannon should be able to reliably kill a Leman Russ each turn?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then don't buy Heavy Weapons for Chaos Tactical Marines? They get two specials. It isn't my fault if you want to do the special snowflake Flamer + Missile Launcher.

Yes, that's the answer which gives TM a huge advantage. CSM CAN get two specials if they take 10 guys, again they all 10 have to run in 1 squad, and if I put meltas for vehicles or plasmas for AP2, then I'm either firing 8 guys at something they can't hurt, or firing 8 guys at something that they likely won't hurt. comparatively you could get a lascannon for the price of 2 meltas shoot a transport with the lascannon and still have 10 bolter shots to shoot at whatever comes out, and if you don't destroy the transport then you can fire at something you can hurt. Finally stop trying to insult me by telling me I just want to be unique, I like what I like and I don't care who else likes, or doesn't , like it.

"The weapons are mostly designed for specific targets, Heavy Bolters are good for horde, Lascannons are good for Tanks/MC, adding things like TH/MH make them better not good, unless you think that bringing a single lascannon should be able to reliably kill a Leman Russ each turn? "

They're actually not good at any of that. Which is why they're bad. A heavy bolter kills an Ork per turn. One. Lascannons take an eternity to kill MCs and anything AV 12 and above.

It all makes more sense if you just pretend bolters don't exist. Which they might as well not in 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:
They're actually not good at any of that. Which is why they're bad. A heavy bolter kills an Ork per turn. One. Lascannons take an eternity to kill MCs and anything AV 12 and above.

Yes, well try bringing more than 1. I'm willing to bet 5 heavy bolters gets some players uneasy, while 5 lascannons would make them think, "no sweat".

Personally, I would much rather see Lascannons to Heavy Bolters, but 1K sons are expensive, and have an invul save.

and a heavy bolters kill 1.33 orks per turn, get 5 and you're killing about 6-7 orks per turn without any kind of augmentation, start adding things like twin-linked which ups it to 8-9 per turn.

Bringing more than one gets prohibitively expensive. That's the problem. Imperial heavy weapons have a gak return for their cost and opportunity cost. Except grav cannons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm talking about Gladius my bad.

Gladius still doesn't mean six Tac Squads and free transports, since the Gladius starts out as a single Demi-Co and Auxiliary. Not everyone who uses the Gladius doubles up for the full company transport bonus, because two Demi Cos gobble points and make it real difficult to fit in other very competitive options, like a Conclave.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Plus Tactical Marines are garbage outside of it, so in lower point games you're using Scouts and/or Bikers. So I don't see what point you're making.

Tactical Squads not in a Gladius still get Grav Cannons, can still make excellent Rhino bunkers, can still Combat Squad on the Drop and can still get Doctrines as UM. I haven't taken Bikes is years, and wouldn't bring Scouts as my main battle line. Tacs do the work I need them to do.

- - -

Martel732 wrote:
"Lascannons are still solid rear-field choices in numbers, especially with Doctrine re-rolls, or as Imperial Fist Tank Hunters. Multimeltas in particular are good in the Skyhammer. Heavy Plasma Gun is fun on Legion of the Damned since they Ignore Cover."

You have to tack on additional rules to make the weapons good. That's not the same as the weapon itself being good.

Or you just bring more of them. Which is why they're still useful in a Devastator squad which brings four, and their range means they can knock off the last few hull points or wounds of whatever your battle line is putting hits on. You know, fire support. Just the other day I used Lascannons to do the last two wounds on a Riptide.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the Legion book will be like. If Iron Warriors get Tank Hunters on their Havocs, because that's going to be nasty vs. stuff like Knights.

Las devastator squads are terrible. What you are talking about?

Doesn't matter; tactical squads and their equivalents can't mass heavy weapons any way.

Darkwynn ran two units of Lasdevs in his Sentinels of Terra list at LVO last year. Tank Hunter Lascannons are fragile though they do have niche use for blowing through Void Shields/scrubbing a few HP off a Knight (at least until said Knight fires back, that is). Of course, he had a Thunderfire as his third HS, and Gravcents as Elites, so there's that...

Or there's hanging at a table edge and sniping Broadsides or so...

Still not anything wtfbbq but not necessarily terrible.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

First two points: Don't give non-relentless models heavy weapons. I don't, and I have combat squads
Third point: Buy two squads.
Fourth point: There is no overkill with boltguns
Fifth point: Boltguns are already ineffective; and don't give you tac squads or whatever CSM have anti-tank weapons.

1.) why shouldn't I give non-relentless models heavy weapons? Because you said so?

2.) Which limits me to 30 models and 0 heavy weapons

3.) So shooting 3 termagants/Guardsman/Boyz with 10 bolter shots would not be overkill?

4.) Boltguns are plenty effective against what they need to be effective against. If I did that then I would get flamers and plasma only.

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone needs a reality check that Imperial heavy weapons other than grav suck. They just do. It's dumb to me that CSM don't have grav, but this means that CSM heavy weapons are all bad. So don't use bad things. Especially on non-relentless platforms.

You have to tack on additional rules to make the weapons good. That's not the same as the weapon itself being good.

The weapons are mostly designed for specific targets, Heavy Bolters are good for horde, Lascannons are good for Tanks/MC, adding things like TH/MH make them better not good, unless you think that bringing a single lascannon should be able to reliably kill a Leman Russ each turn?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then don't buy Heavy Weapons for Chaos Tactical Marines? They get two specials. It isn't my fault if you want to do the special snowflake Flamer + Missile Launcher.

Yes, that's the answer which gives TM a huge advantage. CSM CAN get two specials if they take 10 guys, again they all 10 have to run in 1 squad, and if I put meltas for vehicles or plasmas for AP2, then I'm either firing 8 guys at something they can't hurt, or firing 8 guys at something that they likely won't hurt. comparatively you could get a lascannon for the price of 2 meltas shoot a transport with the lascannon and still have 10 bolter shots to shoot at whatever comes out, and if you don't destroy the transport then you can fire at something you can hurt. Finally stop trying to insult me by telling me I just want to be unique, I like what I like and I don't care who else likes, or doesn't , like it.

Two special weapons allow more specialization against specific targets. There's a reason even 6th edition Grey Hunters are several times better than the Tactical Marine, and this is partly why. It doesn't matter your Bolters aren't hurting a tank if you're able to shoot it with 2 Melta Guns (and maybe a Combi-Melta) and charge at the contents inside. The Bolters would've been useless in the five man squad anyway, so that doesn't help your point.

Like I said, it is a gimmicky rule outside of literally two situations I gave. Only one of those is actually competitive in some sort (Skyhammer).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also YES don't give non-Relentless models Heavy Weapons. Take weapons that can be used on the move for a squad that, you know, is constantly moving.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Two special weapons allow more specialization against specific targets. There's a reason even 6th edition Grey Hunters are several times better than the Tactical Marine, and this is partly why. It doesn't matter your Bolters aren't hurting a tank if you're able to shoot it with 2 Melta Guns (and maybe a Combi-Melta) and charge at the contents inside. The Bolters would've been useless in the five man squad anyway, so that doesn't help your point.

Like I said, it is a gimmicky rule outside of literally two situations I gave. Only one of those is actually competitive in some sort (Skyhammer).

Two special weapons require 10 man squads that 8 bolters shots min wasted per squad up to 16, three times that 24-48 shots, that is a lot of wasted firepower. Those shots can be better used elsewhere. Next people can charge the contents but for CSM to have any real advantage over TM they would have to either swap most of the units Bolt Guns with CCW, or buy CCW and if I buy a CCW plus i'm paying 15 PPM a 10 man squad with 2 meltas is 170 points. So what advantage do CSM have over TM? None, why? Because any extra kills the CSM would get from having a CCW will be negated by the TM being able to shoot at them, not to mention if the CSM player is fighting I4 or higher units the enemy gets to swing no matter what, whereas they don't get to swing back after you shoot them. So yes it does make a difference and yes it does make a difference when your forced to shoot, or not shoot, 103 points worth of models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also YES don't give non-Relentless models Heavy Weapons. Take weapons that can be used on the move for a squad that, you know, is constantly moving.

And that's the thing you have the option of taking a Heavy Weapon and not moving them, whereas I don't have that option. I HAVE to chew up a heavy support slot to do that, but you can use up your Troops choices to add in more Heavy Weapons to your army.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Two special weapons allow more specialization against specific targets. There's a reason even 6th edition Grey Hunters are several times better than the Tactical Marine, and this is partly why. It doesn't matter your Bolters aren't hurting a tank if you're able to shoot it with 2 Melta Guns (and maybe a Combi-Melta) and charge at the contents inside. The Bolters would've been useless in the five man squad anyway, so that doesn't help your point.

Like I said, it is a gimmicky rule outside of literally two situations I gave. Only one of those is actually competitive in some sort (Skyhammer).

Two special weapons require 10 man squads that 8 bolters shots min wasted per squad up to 16, three times that 24-48 shots, that is a lot of wasted firepower. Those shots can be better used elsewhere. Next people can charge the contents but for CSM to have any real advantage over TM they would have to either swap most of the units Bolt Guns with CCW, or buy CCW and if I buy a CCW plus i'm paying 15 PPM a 10 man squad with 2 meltas is 170 points. So what advantage do CSM have over TM? None, why? Because any extra kills the CSM would get from having a CCW will be negated by the TM being able to shoot at them, not to mention if the CSM player is fighting I4 or higher units the enemy gets to swing no matter what, whereas they don't get to swing back after you shoot them. So yes it does make a difference and yes it does make a difference when your forced to shoot, or not shoot, 103 points worth of models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also YES don't give non-Relentless models Heavy Weapons. Take weapons that can be used on the move for a squad that, you know, is constantly moving.

And that's the thing you have the option of taking a Heavy Weapon and move them, whereas I don't have that option. I HAVE to chew up a heavy support slot to do that, but you can use up your Troops choices to add in more Heavy Weapons to your army.

Anything a Bolter is shooting at is realistically not the ideal target of a Plasma gun and vice versa. All Bolter shots are wasted with Special OR heavy weapons. The difference is one of them is letting you move consistently.

Also nobody told you that you had to swap the swap the weapons or buy the CCW, though realistically swapping everything and getting Melta Guns and Combi-Melta gives you an okay chance to pop something and charge.

Also if you REALLY want more Heavy Weapons, there's Havocs and Obliterators. A single special weapon in a squad is horrible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Anything a Bolter is shooting at is realistically not the ideal target of a Plasma gun and vice versa.

Yes that is my point, and yet you keep pointing out that having two Special weapons is super awesome, and I would agree if it was only a 5 man squad but CSM HAVE to take 10 to get 2 special weapons,

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All Bolter shots are wasted with Special OR heavy weapons. The difference is one of them is letting you move consistently.

No the difference is whether or not you have 9 guys attached or 4. The difference is how much firepower is wasted, with one you waste 56 points, the other is 117 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also nobody told you that you had to swap the weapons or buy the CCW, though realistically swapping everything and getting Melta Guns and Combi-Melta gives you an okay chance to pop something and charge.

No the swap/purchase is simply the smart thing to do, since CSM can't fire the Boltgun anyways, CSM are better off with 1 more CC attack then 0 more ranged attacks. That doesn't change the fact that you are in an objectively better position to be able to shoot at a unit, possibly twice, before any CC occurs, reducing the number of models that are going to be able to swing back at you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also if you REALLY want more Heavy Weapons, there's Havocs and Obliterators. A single special weapon in a squad is horrible.

Yes I realize that but with only 3 HS slots and having to take up 1-2 of them for Havocs to pop transports what does that leave me? 1-2 slots for anti flyer, AV14, and Horde. So you're left wide open in some areas.

On a personal note. Oblits are ugly and I understand there supposed to be, but I don't like that, not my thing. Next thier ugly like the models are supposed to be ugly, but they are an ugly ugly, if that makes any sense. Finally they are SUPER expensive. 70 points for a single 2 wound model, Havocs are 75 to start and have 5 guys and I can have guaranteed shots of what I want.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Anything a Bolter is shooting at is realistically not the ideal target of a Plasma gun and vice versa.

Yes that is my point, and yet you keep pointing out that having two Special weapons is super awesome, and I would agree if it was only a 5 man squad but CSM HAVE to take 10 to get 2 special weapons,

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All Bolter shots are wasted with Special OR heavy weapons. The difference is one of them is letting you move consistently.

No the difference is whether or not you have 9 guys attached or 4. The difference is how much firepower is wasted, with one you waste 56 points, the other is 117 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also nobody told you that you had to swap the weapons or buy the CCW, though realistically swapping everything and getting Melta Guns and Combi-Melta gives you an okay chance to pop something and charge.

No the swap/purchase is simply the smart thing to do, since CSM can't fire the Boltgun anyways, CSM are better off with 1 more CC attack then 0 more ranged attacks. That doesn't change the fact that you are in an objectively better position to be able to shoot at a unit, possibly twice, before any CC occurs, reducing the number of models that are going to be able to swing back at you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also if you REALLY want more Heavy Weapons, there's Havocs and Obliterators. A single special weapon in a squad is horrible.

Yes I realize that but with only 3 HS slots and having to take up 1-2 of them for Havocs to pop transports what does that leave me? 1-2 slots for anti flyer, AV14, and Horde. So you're left wide open in some areas.

On a personal note. Oblits are ugly and I understand there supposed to be, but I don't like that, not my thing. Next thier ugly like the models are supposed to be ugly, but they are an ugly ugly, if that makes any sense. Finally they are SUPER expensive. 70 points for a single 2 wound model, Havocs are 75 to start and have 5 guys and I can have guaranteed shots of what I want.

1. Nobody is getting two Specials at 5 dudes unless they're chicks: Sisters. In the meantime popping out of a Rhino (or Pod with Grey Hunters) with two special weapons works well. Tactical Marines don't even get that luxury. Who wants to get out of a Pod with anything but a Grav Cannon? That is an issue with the Grav Cannon, not the Chaos Tactical Marine.

2. You do the same with Tactical Marines at five dudes in the first place and with Chaos Tactical Marines being constantly on the move you aren't buying the Heavy Weapon unless you make bad decisions. Ergo, Combat Squad never comes into play.

3. Anything outside deathstars doesn't really want to be charged by even Berserker Marines. Shame they never make it to combat and are stupid expensive and don't come with Chainaxes standard.

4. You know you can take multiple detachments? Why is this even an issue? Want more Heavy Support slots? Take another HQ (and you were probably grabbing two anyway because that's the best slot we have), get cheap Cultists for objective sitting, and spend away. It isn't rocket science.

Also I don't care if you don't like the Obliterator models. I don't either. Kitbash your own or borrow a friend's like I choose to do.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're actually not good at any of that. Which is why they're bad. A heavy bolter kills an Ork per turn. One. Lascannons take an eternity to kill MCs and anything AV 12 and above.

Yes, well try bringing more than 1. I'm willing to bet 5 heavy bolters gets some players uneasy, while 5 lascannons would make them think, "no sweat".

Personally, I would much rather see Lascannons to Heavy Bolters, but 1K sons are expensive, and have an invul save.

and a heavy bolters kill 1.33 orks per turn, get 5 and you're killing about 6-7 orks per turn without any kind of augmentation, start adding things like twin-linked which ups it to 8-9 per turn.

Heavy Bolters are in fact significantly superior to Martel's incarnate God, the Scatterlaser, against both my main army (Genestealer Cult) and my main opponent (Dark Eldar).

But Martel's world is inhabited exclusively by MEQ and Craftworld Eldar.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're actually not good at any of that. Which is why they're bad. A heavy bolter kills an Ork per turn. One. Lascannons take an eternity to kill MCs and anything AV 12 and above.

Yes, well try bringing more than 1. I'm willing to bet 5 heavy bolters gets some players uneasy, while 5 lascannons would make them think, "no sweat".

Personally, I would much rather see Lascannons to Heavy Bolters, but 1K sons are expensive, and have an invul save.

and a heavy bolters kill 1.33 orks per turn, get 5 and you're killing about 6-7 orks per turn without any kind of augmentation, start adding things like twin-linked which ups it to 8-9 per turn.

Heavy Bolters are in fact significantly superior to Martel's incarnate God, the Scatterlaser, against both my main army (Genestealer Cult) and my main opponent (Dark Eldar).

But Martel's world is inhabited exclusively by MEQ and Craftworld Eldar.

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

I feel this thread has really gone everywhere, and could easily be split into multiple threads in one go.

-Merits of anything vs Grav.
-Do you see Tacticals outside of the Gladius?
-Is Combat Squadding an advantage if you never use it outside edge-cases like the Skyhammer?
-Does Chaos work without Forgeworld?

Etc.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

Yes, they are, because 5/6 x 3 > 5/6 x 2/3 x 4

And don't tell me what to do.

Alcibiades wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

Yes, they are, because 5/6 x 3 > 5/6 x 2/3 x 4

And don't tell me what to do.

That 5/6 literally came from nowhere.

And yes I'm telling you to not defend the Heavy Bolter because it IS a gak choice.

It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

 Roknar wrote:
It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

A Retribution Squad gets 4 Heavy Bolters. On average this is 8 shots and therefore a little over 1 Rending shot.

Not impressed at all.

you guys are arguing with Martel here, he isn't gonna give up and its moot to argue. He is unchanged on his nihilistic view on 40k

Looks like they are talking to slayer to me. The math speaks for itself on imperial heavy weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're actually not good at any of that. Which is why they're bad. A heavy bolter kills an Ork per turn. One. Lascannons take an eternity to kill MCs and anything AV 12 and above.

Yes, well try bringing more than 1. I'm willing to bet 5 heavy bolters gets some players uneasy, while 5 lascannons would make them think, "no sweat".

Personally, I would much rather see Lascannons to Heavy Bolters, but 1K sons are expensive, and have an invul save.

and a heavy bolters kill 1.33 orks per turn, get 5 and you're killing about 6-7 orks per turn without any kind of augmentation, start adding things like twin-linked which ups it to 8-9 per turn.

Heavy Bolters are in fact significantly superior to Martel's incarnate God, the Scatterlaser, against both my main army (Genestealer Cult) and my main opponent (Dark Eldar).

But Martel's world is inhabited exclusively by MEQ and Craftworld Eldar.

Can't the genestealer cult and de use cover? That neuters the heavy bolter right there. It's almost always better to cause more wounds vs light/mef infantry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

Yes those tyrannical T3 multi-wound models that are the bane of all armies everywhere. What do you mean extra shot? Heavy Bolters have three shots same as Multi-Lasers, and once cover is seen there is no difference in wounds until you hit T4 and T5 and above that there is no difference other then T9 and its marginal at best, not "significant" if you think 16% less wounds is significant then you have another thing coming. There is nothing significant about 8.4 and 10.

...

...

Sorry i was having a flashback of facing T3 multi-wound models, had no solution cause my bolters definitely wont kill them.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

Yes those tyrannical T3 multi-wound models that are the bane of all armies everywhere. What do you mean extra shot? Heavy Bolters have three shots same as Multi-Lasers, and once cover is seen there is no difference in wounds until you hit T4 and T5 and above that there is no difference other then T9 and its marginal at best, not "significant" if you think 16% less wounds is significant then you have another thing coming. There is nothing significant about 8.4 and 10.

...

...

Sorry i was having a flashback of facing T3 multi-wound models, had no solution cause my bolters definitely wont kill them.

Multilasers have 3 shots but we were talking about Scatterlasers, which shows you aren't bothering to pay attention to the conversation.

That matters because there's plenty of T3 models with FNP, which shows you're also not thinking outside the box.

You also forget that cover is literally the easiest thing to get for infantry. So you're paying for the AP4 at exchange for lower strength and number of shots. Nobody respects Heavy Bolters for a reason.

OK, I'm going to explain something about Genestealer Cult.

Discounting Genestealers and Aberrants, It is a sea of T3 models with 5+ saves (with possible 6+ FNP admittedly, dependent on proximity to one HQ model). In addition, it is largely an assault army, meaning that I am charging around across territory from point A to point B, deprived of cover saves a lot of the time (especially in overwatch). Thirdly, the two whole models in the army that are T3 multiwound models have usually 20 ablative wounds attached to them. Being able to double them out is of quite secondary importance to chewing through the 20 ablative wounds that you have to do first!

Discounting flamers, the infantry weapon that is most effective at killing this army happens to be -- the bolter. The most effective heavy weapon is -- the heavy bolter. Plasma is a waste (being effectively a bolter than can kill the user!). Grav is nigh useless. Wastes of points you could have spent on... more bolters. It is the army tac marines were made to kill.

Discounting possible light vehicles, the heavy bolter is indeed (marginally, not vastly) superior in this case to the scatter laser, because it has identical chance to wound, minus the armor save (which will matter because the infantry are running around, not sitting in cover), which is not offset by the extra shot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

A Retribution Squad gets 4 Heavy Bolters. On average this is 8 shots and therefore a little over 1 Rending shot.

Not impressed at all.

In theory, yes, but practice has given me rather different results.

I would have thought ATSKNF was all the evidence needed for why Tacts are better then CSM alone?

Failing that, Chapter tactics for free > Marks any day of the week.

MoT costs point for a 6++, Iron Hands get 6+ FnP for free.
MoK costs points for Rage and Counter Attack, BT get Rage free
MoN costs points for +1T, actually the only good one.
MoS costs points for +1I. Yeah, literally any CT beats this for free.
VOTLW: Paid upgrade for +1Ld and Hatred. Imperial Fist chapter tactics PLUS ATSKNF does the same, from range. Free. Oh, and Dark Angels say Hi!

Also, chapter tactics are not just one effect, they are 2-3 different effects, afforded freely, to an entire army. Meanwhile CSM are paying a premium for some meh USRs or Stat increases (Which would be awesome if free, but since it's paid for, they're meh asf).

It's sad to say that generally speaking, the "Bad" guys in 40K really get shafted in their codexes (CSM, 'nids, Orks, DE)

Alcibiades wrote:
OK, I'm going to explain something about Genestealer Cult.

Discounting Genestealers and Aberrants, It is a sea of T3 models with 5+ saves (with possible 6+ FNP admittedly, dependent on proximity to one HQ model). In addition, it is largely an assault army, meaning that I am charging around across territory from point A to point B, deprived of cover saves a lot of the time (especially in overwatch). Thirdly, the two whole models in the army that are T3 multiwound models have usually 20 ablative wounds attached to them. Being able to double them out is of quite secondary importance to chewing through the 20 ablative wounds that you have to do first!

Discounting flamers, the infantry weapon that is most effective at killing this army happens to be -- the bolter. The most effective heavy weapon is -- the heavy bolter. Plasma is a waste (being effectively a bolter than can kill the user!). Grav is nigh useless. Wastes of points you could have spent on... more bolters. It is the army tac marines were made to kill.

Discounting possible light vehicles, the heavy bolter is indeed (marginally, not vastly) superior in this case to the scatter laser, because it has identical chance to wound, minus the armor save (which will matter because the infantry are running around, not sitting in cover), which is not offset by the extra shot.

I knew that already. But 5++ cover makes the scatterlaser better again. Plus, the scatterlaser is so much better vs the field that your point only matters if tailoring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

A Retribution Squad gets 4 Heavy Bolters. On average this is 8 shots and therefore a little over 1 Rending shot.

Not impressed at all.

In theory, yes, but practice has given me rather different results.

It probably hasn't, you are likely misrembering the results, or haven't played the list enough.

Alcibiades wrote:
OK, I'm going to explain something about Genestealer Cult.

Discounting Genestealers and Aberrants, It is a sea of T3 models with 5+ saves (with possible 6+ FNP admittedly, dependent on proximity to one HQ model). In addition, it is largely an assault army, meaning that I am charging around across territory from point A to point B, deprived of cover saves a lot of the time (especially in overwatch). Thirdly, the two whole models in the army that are T3 multiwound models have usually 20 ablative wounds attached to them. Being able to double them out is of quite secondary importance to chewing through the 20 ablative wounds that you have to do first!

Discounting flamers, the infantry weapon that is most effective at killing this army happens to be -- the bolter. The most effective heavy weapon is -- the heavy bolter. Plasma is a waste (being effectively a bolter than can kill the user!). Grav is nigh useless. Wastes of points you could have spent on... more bolters. It is the army tac marines were made to kill.

Discounting possible light vehicles, the heavy bolter is indeed (marginally, not vastly) superior in this case to the scatter laser, because it has identical chance to wound, minus the armor save (which will matter because the infantry are running around, not sitting in cover), which is not offset by the extra shot.

You mean the infiltrators that are getting cover or a transport unless you're daft enough to not use either? Or you mean the ones that get recycled?

No, the Heavy Bolter is garbage and has been for years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

A Retribution Squad gets 4 Heavy Bolters. On average this is 8 shots and therefore a little over 1 Rending shot.

Not impressed at all.

In theory, yes, but practice has given me rather different results.

There's a saying in the Fire Emblem community: PEDM, otherwise known as "Personal Experience Doesn't Matter". This is because nobody cares if your junk waifu character leveled up okay in one game; we are looking at the whole picture and averages.

Bringing the conversation back to CSM, I find it interesting how no one has mentioned icons.
Sure, the Icon of Nurgle is practically useless because everyone and their mum's has Fearless or ATSKNF these days, and I've never had much Luck with an Icon of Flame but (being a Slaaneshi chaos player) I do find being able to give my marines FNP in large blobs does improve their sticking power. Granted, Plague Marines are probably better in this respect, but they can't take heavy weapons and having a durable heavy weapons unit can be a god-send (as my opponents systematically target them in almost every game).

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that with an Icon of Vengeance, you can give Chaos Marines Fearless. Now that has a few limitations so you can't claim our weapons are useless - so avoid contemptor dreads and the like at all costs (unless you have a power fist or melta bombs), but in a unit of say 20 men with Fearless - now that is scary.

My thoughts on combat squads is that they have the potential to be tactically advantageous, but I find that when my opponents do so it just helps me to roll them up quicker. A well placed blastmaster can then wipe out a combat squad, and if you have four or more small squads of Noise Marines armed with the sound cannons then you can rain hell on combat squads, even ones that try to avoid attention at the furthest end of the battlefield. So while I can see the advantages of combat squads, in practice I have never seen them succeed.

The biggest problem with icons is the fact that if the bearer dies the effect stops straight away. Plus they are not cheap in points, not just for the banner its self 4 out of the 5 need you to be marked. I'm not saying they dont have a role but for another 20 points a 10 man slaanesh squad can get a lord whos fearless base and is a damn sight more useful.

Thinking on it thats the problem with a lot of the enterys in the dex.

Thing is, with the sisters it's not just the heavy bolters. You're also firing bolters and with the way the canoness is atm I have her joined with a storm bolter. Those all get rending as well.
I suppose they aren't technically heavy bolters, but as a unit it works.

 Roknar wrote:
Thing is, with the sisters it's not just the heavy bolters. You're also firing bolters and with the way the canoness is atm I have her joined with a storm bolter. Those all get rending as well.
I suppose they aren't technically heavy bolters, but as a unit it works.

That's critical information, and those bolters will generate way more rends than the heavy bolters, especially as they are not snap shot on the move. But even that has only a fraction of the efficacy of the IG casting misfortune.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drakeslayer wrote:
Bringing the conversation back to CSM, I find it interesting how no one has mentioned icons.
Sure, the Icon of Nurgle is practically useless because everyone and their mum's has Fearless or ATSKNF these days, and I've never had much Luck with an Icon of Flame but (being a Slaaneshi chaos player) I do find being able to give my marines FNP in large blobs does improve their sticking power. Granted, Plague Marines are probably better in this respect, but they can't take heavy weapons and having a durable heavy weapons unit can be a god-send (as my opponents systematically target them in almost every game).

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that with an Icon of Vengeance, you can give Chaos Marines Fearless. Now that has a few limitations so you can't claim our weapons are useless - so avoid contemptor dreads and the like at all costs (unless you have a power fist or melta bombs), but in a unit of say 20 men with Fearless - now that is scary.

My thoughts on combat squads is that they have the potential to be tactically advantageous, but I find that when my opponents do so it just helps me to roll them up quicker. A well placed blastmaster can then wipe out a combat squad, and if you have four or more small squads of Noise Marines armed with the sound cannons then you can rain hell on combat squads, even ones that try to avoid attention at the furthest end of the battlefield. So while I can see the advantages of combat squads, in practice I have never seen them succeed.

Marines and CSM both are plagued by concepts that don't work. It's just that marines get more free stuff, free buffs, and grav to make up the difference. That's why BA play more like CSM than loyalists.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
Bringing the conversation back to CSM, I find it interesting how no one has mentioned icons.
Sure, the Icon of Nurgle is practically useless because everyone and their mum's has Fearless or ATSKNF these days, and I've never had much Luck with an Icon of Flame but (being a Slaaneshi chaos player) I do find being able to give my marines FNP in large blobs does improve their sticking power. Granted, Plague Marines are probably better in this respect, but they can't take heavy weapons and having a durable heavy weapons unit can be a god-send (as my opponents systematically target them in almost every game).

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that with an Icon of Vengeance, you can give Chaos Marines Fearless. Now that has a few limitations so you can't claim our weapons are useless - so avoid contemptor dreads and the like at all costs (unless you have a power fist or melta bombs), but in a unit of say 20 men with Fearless - now that is scary.

My thoughts on combat squads is that they have the potential to be tactically advantageous, but I find that when my opponents do so it just helps me to roll them up quicker. A well placed blastmaster can then wipe out a combat squad, and if you have four or more small squads of Noise Marines armed with the sound cannons then you can rain hell on combat squads, even ones that try to avoid attention at the furthest end of the battlefield. So while I can see the advantages of combat squads, in practice I have never seen them succeed.

Yeah I'm starting to look at Marks and Icons while going through my old gaming groups collection of models, and I'm liking what I see. Also the fact that the Chaos marines can exchange their Boltgun for a CC weapon for free. Starting at 13 ppm, giving them the mark of Slaanesh for +1 I, and then giving them the Icon of excess for FNP, 20 man squad. Joining them with a Character makes them Fearless, and you have a huge unit that can soak a bunch of fire. I'm liking the potential of that, especially if I can use psychic powers to jump them forward on the table, or taking Ahriman to infiltrate them.

I'm starting to think the fun way to use the basic CSM squad is to embrace their CC weapons and large units.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah I'm starting to look at Marks and Icons while going through my old gaming groups collection of models, and I'm liking what I see. Also the fact that the Chaos marines can exchange their Boltgun for a CC weapon for free. Starting at 13 ppm, giving them the mark of Slaanesh for +1 I, and then giving them the Icon of excess for FNP, 20 man squad. Joining them with a Character makes them Fearless, and you have a huge unit that can soak a bunch of fire. I'm liking the potential of that, especially if I can use psychic powers to jump them forward on the table, or taking Ahriman to infiltrate them.

I'm starting to think the fun way to use the basic CSM squad is to embrace their CC weapons and large units.

Yeah have fun walking that unit across the board, since it's too big to put in anything.

Anything like that needs guaranteed Infiltrate at the very least.

Or , you, give them literal jump, guaranteed, no way to deny. And hammer of wrath and re-roll charge distance while you're at it (I think?). Wonder if that makes khorne berzerkes more interesting in a maelstrom of gore. They could potentially charge turn 1, although it would require a dang near perfect roll.
Either zerkers or marines could still get feel no pain via auloth, which would also make marines fearless.

Man I'm a little bit hyped for the traitor legion supplement now.

Well, I included Ahriman at the end because he is an automatic infiltrate for the unit. (Warlord Trait) But I'm thinking a more fun way to go at it is to use a couple Sorcerers to get the Chaos version of Electrodisplacement. The other ingredient is Chaos Bikes.

Ahriman infiltrates the Chaos Bikers.

Turn 1, Bikers move 12" towards the enemy line.

In the Psychic phase you Elecdrodisplacement-swap the bikes with the 20+ man mob. Then charge with the mob in the assault phase. The Bikes get you further than you could normally go with their move distance, and because you swap them out you bypass the restriction on infiltrating units being unable to charge in the first turn.

I also re-noticed that the Icon of Wrath gets you a re-roll on the charge, so that's another interesting option.

 Roknar wrote:
Or , you, give them literal jump, guaranteed, no way to deny. And hammer of wrath and re-roll charge distance while you're at it (I think?). Wonder if that makes khorne berzerkes more interesting in a maelstrom of gore. They could potentially charge turn 1, although it would require a dang near perfect roll.
Either zerkers or marines could still get feel no pain via auloth, which would also make marines fearless.

Man I'm a little bit hyped for the traitor legion supplement now.

I don't think you would be able to do that since part of the rules is that you can't have marks of another god in the army, again I think.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Sigil is 25 points, not 40.

Holy moly was I talking rubbish. I was adding up the sigil and the mark then adding the mark again.

God damnit, you made me look stupid!

Oh my goodness. Mr. Farrage is also here. Any exit vote concerning GW?

I think there is no real winner here. Both units are useful in an objective based game. Nothing else.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, I included Ahriman at the end because he is an automatic infiltrate for the unit. (Warlord Trait) But I'm thinking a more fun way to go at it is to use a couple Sorcerers to get the Chaos version of Electrodisplacement. The other ingredient is Chaos Bikes.

Ahriman infiltrates the Chaos Bikers.

Did they remove the restriction of only Infantry infiltrating by his trait?

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, I included Ahriman at the end because he is an automatic infiltrate for the unit. (Warlord Trait) But I'm thinking a more fun way to go at it is to use a couple Sorcerers to get the Chaos version of Electrodisplacement. The other ingredient is Chaos Bikes.

Ahriman infiltrates the Chaos Bikers.

Did they remove the restriction of only Infantry infiltrating by his trait?

Thats a good point they did not as far as I know.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Or , you, give them literal jump, guaranteed, no way to deny. And hammer of wrath and re-roll charge distance while you're at it (I think?). Wonder if that makes khorne berzerkes more interesting in a maelstrom of gore. They could potentially charge turn 1, although it would require a dang near perfect roll.
Either zerkers or marines could still get feel no pain via auloth, which would also make marines fearless.

Man I'm a little bit hyped for the traitor legion supplement now.

I don't think you would be able to do that since part of the rules is that you can't have marks of another god in the army, again I think.

The rules for making a TSons detachement say you can't have any other mark in that detachment, not army iirc. You'd need two detachments/formations, but it would be doable.
Either way though, this and presumably the other legions too will add another layer of rules on top of what we get with traitor's hate, which is awesome. Of course it wouldn't work with fist of the gods for 5++ vehicles because reasons.
I really really hope Black Legion now also get a free VotLW instead of simply copy pasting the rules from the supplement. We already kind of have in traitors hate, but let's make it official shall we GW?

Drakeslayer, I find it interesting it took so long for icons to be mentioned too!

Don't forget in combat:

They give +1 Ld when losing by more than 1.
Autopass when losing by only 1.
Turn draws into enemy losses.
Penalise -1 Ld when enemies lose combat proper.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, I included Ahriman at the end because he is an automatic infiltrate for the unit. (Warlord Trait) But I'm thinking a more fun way to go at it is to use a couple Sorcerers to get the Chaos version of Electrodisplacement. The other ingredient is Chaos Bikes.

Ahriman infiltrates the Chaos Bikers.

Did they remove the restriction of only Infantry infiltrating by his trait?

Whoops! Thanks, overlooked that.

Okaaay, then I'm going with infiltrating an Infantry unit with a Sorcerer, or just a Sorcerer, summoning daemons close to the enemy, then swapping the daemons position with the mob unit. Or I suppose you could ally with Daemons and get nearly the same result without the summoning power. But summoning in the Psychic Phase gets you past any Interceptor AFAIK. Not to mention the free unit.

Either way, I think the way to aggressively get the huge units across the table is Psychic powers, some of which will allow an Assault afterwards.

Or just do swapsies with a unit of nurglings?