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You always hear that Space Marine Tactical are way better than their chaotic counterpart.
The standard Chaos marine comes at 13 pts and is able to buy VotLW which is pretty much their chapter tactic although it is a bit weaker than other chapter tactics, but helps greatly in CQC granting your champion a Ld value of 10
Making him a little superior to the loyalist counter part in combat as well a hating well 40% of all the armies in the game makes a good HtH combatants and the option to exchange or add on ccw is a solid option for a chaos army. While the space marines get combat squads Chaos marines get increased numbers. And as an exchange for the grav weaponry you get to take two heavy weapons or two special weapons, and changing the plasma cannon for a autocannon and receiving marks and gifts of mutation for drop pods which is painful, because the dread claw costs a fortune. Please explain to me why are one better than others???

Droppods, gladius, atsknf, no forced challenges, grav, codex balance overall.

Forced challenges aren't always bad and instead of grav we get marks and mutations, and we get free hatred and boons if we take a traitor's hate detachment this kind of balances out the gladius stuff, but the atsnf does hurt and I donnot understand about the codex balance.

That doesn't really balance out free transports.

Honestly, what would you prefer, +1 ld, hatred vs imperium or 8 pt marines with auto-regroup, immunity to sweeps and fear? (that's how much they cost after you count in a free razorback)

Yes you are right (Although if I was playing a fluff game I would prefer hatred.) But on the flip side you can possibly get a 23pts champion turn into a 30 pts spawn or a 100+ pts daemon prince!

Chaos Marines:

Free Pros
Cost a tiny bit cheaper
Option to choose two special weapons

Pros you have to pay for (not free)
VotLW
Chaos Marks
More than 10 models per unit

Cons
No ATSKNF (can be run down, must spend a turn rallying)
Must issue/accept challenges (takes away player choice)
No free Chapter Tactics
No Combat Squads
No access to drop pods
No access to grav



Now, I certainly don't want my chaos marines to just be "Imperials with funny helmets", but there is a disparity in the codex builds. Heck, since the chaos codex was released, we have seen two newer Marine codexes and the Angels of Death update. It would certainly go a long way if all Chaos marines got VotLW and their choice of Mark for free (mimicking ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics). But we'll see what the new Traitor Legions book has for us.

 kungfujon wrote:
Chaos Marines:

Free Pros
Cost a tiny bit cheaper
Option to choose two special weapons

Pros you have to pay for (not free)
VotLW
Chaos Marks
More than 10 models per unit

Cons
No ATSKNF (can be run down, must spend a turn rallying)
Must issue/accept challenges (takes away player choice)
No free Chapter Tactics
No Combat Squads
No access to drop pods
No access to grav

CSM can take Autocannons.
C:SM can take Plasma Cannons.
I think CSM come out slightly ahead there.

C:SM do not have to take a veteran sergeant. Basically CSM are forced to pay 10 points to give their Champion +1 attack. That really hurts MSU/Shooting

Champions of Chaos is a terrible rule.

Strictly speaking, if it wasn't for 7th Marines getting the option for a Grav Cannon at 5 models, and the assorted meta-detachments they have (Gladius Scars or the Fist of Medusa force w/ Stormlance), nobody would take Tacticals, despite them being mostly better than Chaos Marines, because Scouts and Bikers are still troop options.

Thankfully, the Chaos Warband only requires two units of Chaos Marines, in exchange for everything else getting obsec/free VoTLW if I take a single Spawn. Honestly, I'll just run two 5-man melta/combi-melta teams and call it a day, and give Dirge Casters to the Rhinos as a cheapish upgrade so they can support other units for assaults, and focus the rest of the points on more Bikers/Terminators (or Chosen/Havocs if you want to do a Rhino-train, I suppose). Either way, having an entire army of Ld 10 obsec dudes does add up fast, especially since Ld modifiers are becoming more of a thing (I'd rather do 10-2=8 instead of 8-2=6...).

Chaos does get solid Bikers that are arguably as good if not better than Marines in certain aspects. Their Terminators are arguably better than the Loyalist ones, and while Raptors are also underwhelming, they're arguably better than most Assault Marines, especially with the Raptor Talon formation being a thing.

Personally storm shields make me the most salty:
15pts for a 3++ invul in exchange for no extra attack for two weapons.
If a chaos lord wants a 3++ he has to take the sigil of corruption for 40pts and dedicate himself to Tzeentch for another 15pts. Almost 4 times as expensive and it ruins the fluffiness of an army if you are running anything but Tzeentch.

There, I am done venting... For now...
Please continue.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Personally storm shields make me the most salty:
15pts for a 3++ invul in exchange for no extra attack for two weapons.
If a chaos lord wants a 3++ he has to take the sigil of corruption for 40pts and dedicate himself to Tzeentch for another 15pts. Almost 4 times as expensive and it ruins the fluffiness of an army if you are running anything but Tzeentch.

There, I am done venting... For now...
Please continue.

That math is kinda incorrect. You're taking the Sigil regardless and that makes a Lord the same price as a regular Captain. Ergo the Mark and the Shield are the same price when you consider taking them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Personally storm shields make me the most salty:
15pts for a 3++ invul in exchange for no extra attack for two weapons.
If a chaos lord wants a 3++ he has to take the sigil of corruption for 40pts and dedicate himself to Tzeentch for another 15pts. Almost 4 times as expensive and it ruins the fluffiness of an army if you are running anything but Tzeentch.

There, I am done venting... For now...
Please continue.

That math is kinda incorrect. You're taking the Sigil regardless and that makes a Lord the same price as a regular Captain. Ergo the Mark and the Shield are the same price when you consider taking them.

My apologies, forgot about a captain's 90pt cost.
Still makes it 15pts more expensive than a captain and you still have to dedicate yourself to Tzeentch.

While I'm venting I will also mention how SM elite choices get access to the ss while chaos elites only get an invul from their armour, their mark, or very rarely (and quite expensively) from daemon.

A Storm Shield costs 15.
Mark of Tzeentch costs 15.
So both the Lord and Captain cost the same to get 3++, with the Lord getting to keep his extra attack, while now being able to take a Disc for 10 points more than a regular Bike in exchange for Jetbike status (this is actually pretty useful simply from a "avoiding roadblock units" perspective) and getting another attack. Thus you're looking at 5 attacks base for a Disclord rather than 3 for a Shield Captain.
If anything, the reason you don't see Mark of Tzeentch is because of the inability for characters to join other units of different Marks (meaning you can't use Nurgle Spawn as a bodyguard), and Nurgle making you T6 and thus immune to being doubled out by S10. However, I find that ranged S10 tends to be the exception rather than the norm, and a 3++ saves versus stuff like Grav/Rending.

If there's anything to be salty about, it's the fact that every Chaos Elite slot moves like infantry, and is mostly geared either for melee or short/midrange shooting. There's no equivalent to Vanguard Veterans or Bike Command Squads. Unlike Sternguard, Chosen can only take **one** Heavy Weapon rather than two, and you don't get access to Rifleman Dreads or similar analogues. Thus, Elites tend to be an afterthought, with Termicide being the most common Elite, Chosen being a secondary option, and the occasional solo Mutilators acting as DS distractions.

How many points do you think a lord is?
65 base + 40 for sigil and + 15 for mark to make 120pts.
A captain is 90 base + 15 for ss to make 105pts.

So a captain is 15pts cheaper.

The Sigil is 25 points, not 40.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Sigil is 25 points, not 40.

Holy moly was I talking rubbish. I was adding up the sigil and the mark then adding the mark again.

God damnit, you made me look stupid!

sushi2001 wrote:
Yes you are right (Although if I was playing a fluff game I would prefer hatred.) But on the flip side you can possibly get a 23pts champion turn into a 30 pts spawn or a 100+ pts daemon prince!

You can also get things like Eternal Warrior which is pretty bad for a sergeant.

What would have been nice would have been the option to "shift" a Chaos Boon result by +- 1 if it's a bonus you already have, or for certain bonuses to have exception cases. Maybe I'll post it under proposed rules after giving it some thought (EW becomes +1 Wounds if you already have EW, or only have 1 wound or so, Hammer of Wrath becomes "an extra HoW attack", etc)

CSM squads get to take;

Bolter and bolt pistol
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon (slight extra cost)

I think all options have a place. A small melta squad can make use of bolt pistol and CCW's because when they're targeting vehicles their bolters are no use anyway. Bolters are good for units not trying to get too close to the enemy. The third option is useful for an anti infantry unit in a rhino with flame weapons, so they can flame and shoot bolters on disembarking but then have freedom in subsequent turns to act as either a CC unit or shooting unit depending on what is happening around them

I'm not saying CSM squads are as good as loyalists but it's a nice option to have

Outside of being able to take two special weapons, Tactical Marines are superior. Tactical Marines are garbage because they cannot do that and aren't taken without the free transports, and CSM Marines aren't taken because of the mandatory Champion tax which makes MSU more expensive and aren't taken without the maybe free VotLW to help alleviate morale issues (which really aren't that big a deal).

I take them in angel's blade, but they are a life support system for an init 5 power sword and a heavy flamer.

Martel732 wrote:
I take them in angel's blade, but they are a life support system for an init 5 power sword and a heavy flamer.

Which makes it a shame you guys don't get the storm. You'd be able to get your Flamer fix from that and let the Scouts get their fun.

I hope I'm not derailing the thread but before Traitors Hate I would have never taken CSM simply because Plague Marines exist, who are better in every way (also much more expensive, but it's worth it). So, if there are two units in the same slot that can do nearly/exactly the same, though one of them can do it better in every way, you won't take the other one. (PMs are of course only troops with Nurgle Lord, but in this edition all the other marks seem to be fur fluff players only... thank Nurgle I'm praying to the right god.)
As it stands, both tactical and Chaos Space Marines are taken only to fulfil a formation requirement. Yes, there are differences between them, but in the greater scheme they can be ignored, as both of them aren't very good units in the first place.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
CSM squads get to take;

Bolter and bolt pistol
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon (slight extra cost)

I'm not saying CSM squads are as good as loyalists but it's a nice option to have

I was looking for someone to mention this. Chaos Marine Tactical have more versatility.

I've seen surprisingly little talk about Drop Pods here. Even if all else was equal (which it most definitely is not) Drop Pods are miles better than Rhinos, but cost the same. So a Tactical Squad in a Drop Pod is outright superior to a CSM Squad in a Rhino (in most situations, at least).

Also, Plague Marines might be good, but they're overcosted. For 4 Points more, Triarch Praetorians get:

-+1 Strength
-AP 2 melee attacks
-AP 2 ranged attacks
-The Jump Pack unit type

and only lose:

-Poisoned Melee attacks
-Rhinos

sushi2001 wrote:
You always hear that Space Marine Tactical are way better than their chaotic counterpart.

Yup.

sushi2001 wrote:
The standard Chaos marine comes at 13 pts and is able to buy VotLW which is pretty much their chapter tactic although it is a bit weaker than other chapter tactics, but helps greatly in CQC granting your champion a Ld value of 10

How is Hatred (Space Marines) and +1 LD pretty much chapter tactics? How is having 10 LD so much better than 9 LD? I have 9% greater chance of success? So if we both roll 10 LD checks I will pass 8 and you will pass 7 except your models will act normally the next turn when they automatically regroup unless they get overrun, Oh wait that's right SM CANNOT BE OVER RUN. Meanwhile my units can get overrun and under 25% they will probably just run off the board.

sushi2001 wrote:
Making him a little superior to the loyalist counter part in combat as well a hating well 40% of all the armies in the game makes a good HtH combatants and the option to exchange or add on ccw is a solid option for a chaos army.

This statement right here lets me know you have no clue what you're talking about. SM are not 40% of the armies available in the game

sushi2001 wrote:
While the space marines get combat squads Chaos marines get increased numbers.

Sweet you mean I can have a foot slogging 20 man squad with two melta guns and have 18 bolters that are forced to fire at something they can't hurt? Why would anyone even want combat squads i mean it definitely doesn't let you take a 10 man squad split it in 2 and have a heavy weapon sit on a rear objective safely giving support fire while holding an objective mean while you can have the non heavy weapon squad move forward, avoid snap shots and take another objective.

sushi2001 wrote:
And as an exchange for the grav weaponry you get to take two heavy weapons or two special weapons, and changing the plasma cannon for a autocannon

Again you're showing your ignorance you can't get two heavy weapons, you can get 1 heavy weapon IF you have at least 10 a man squad, and in the heavy weapon slot you have some special weapons. So you can take 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon, or 2 special weapons.

sushi2001 wrote:
[R]eceiving marks and gifts of mutation for drop pods which is painful, because the dread claw costs a fortune.

CSM don't "receive" marks and GoM they BUY them you pay 10 points for GoM which may or may not be helpful. MoN is amazing, but costs 3 PPM, the other 3 are 2 PPM and range from useful but overpriced to useless and overpriced.

sushi2001 wrote:
Please explain to me why are one better than others???

Because if you upgrade SM and CSM to be equal (Relatively) you end up paying about 2 PPM more for for CSM, and that's not even including the huge amount of flexibility that TM have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phydox wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
CSM squads get to take;

Bolter and bolt pistol
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon (slight extra cost)

I'm not saying CSM squads are as good as loyalists but it's a nice option to have

I was looking for someone to mention this. Chaos Marine Tactical have more versatility.

That's like saying having a midget with a step ladder is a nice option for a basket ball team.

Bolter and Bolt Pistol= Pay for a weapon you will never use

Bolt Pistol and CCW = CC oriented squad that has no effective delivery system.

Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW = 18 PPM with VotLW and Mark upgrades.

Chaos Marines being able to take a CCW does not make up for Drop Pods and Combat Squads

 MagicJuggler wrote:
What would have been nice would have been the option to "shift" a Chaos Boon result by +- 1 if it's a bonus you already have, or for certain bonuses to have exception cases. Maybe I'll post it under proposed rules after giving it some thought (EW becomes +1 Wounds if you already have EW, or only have 1 wound or so, Hammer of Wrath becomes "an extra HoW attack", etc)

Even then the table is just terrible. Too many options that will have VERY limited use.
+1 BS?
+1 Init?
Gun has +1 strength?
Then yes plenty give you things that you might already have like:
You can get hatred on a boon, on a warlord trait, from VotLW and/or by default.
Shred on a model that already has Shred
Fleshbane on a model that already has Fleshbane
Posion on a model that already has posion or fleshbane
ID on models that already have ID
+1 save on a model with 2+ save already.

There are a few really really good ones, but most are hardly worth making a note of.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

sushi2001 wrote:
You always hear that Space Marine Tactical are way better than their chaotic counterpart.

Yup.

sushi2001 wrote:
The standard Chaos marine comes at 13 pts and is able to buy VotLW which is pretty much their chapter tactic although it is a bit weaker than other chapter tactics, but helps greatly in CQC granting your champion a Ld value of 10

How is Hatred (Space Marines) and +1 LD pretty much chapter tactics? How is having 10 LD so much better than 9 LD? I have 9% greater chance of success? So if we both roll 10 LD checks I will pass 8 and you will pass 7 except your models will act normally the next turn when they automatically regroup unless they get overrun, Oh wait that's right SM CANNOT BE OVER RUN. Meanwhile my units can get overrun and under 25% they will probably just run off the board.

sushi2001 wrote:
Making him a little superior to the loyalist counter part in combat as well a hating well 40% of all the armies in the game makes a good HtH combatants and the option to exchange or add on ccw is a solid option for a chaos army.

This statement right here lets me know you have no clue what you're talking about. SM are not 40% of the armies available in the game

sushi2001 wrote:
While the space marines get combat squads Chaos marines get increased numbers.

Sweet you mean I can have a foot slogging 20 man squad with two melta guns and have 18 bolters that are forced to fire at something they can't hurt? Why would anyone even want combat squads i mean it definitely doesn't let you take a 10 man squad split it in 2 and have a heavy weapon sit on a rear objective safely giving support fire while holding an objective mean while you can have the non heavy weapon squad move forward, avoid snap shots and take another objective.

sushi2001 wrote:
And as an exchange for the grav weaponry you get to take two heavy weapons or two special weapons, and changing the plasma cannon for a autocannon

Again you're showing your ignorance you can't get two heavy weapons, you can get 1 heavy weapon IF you have at least 10 a man squad, and in the heavy weapon slot you have some special weapons. So you can take 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon, or 2 special weapons.

sushi2001 wrote:
[R]eceiving marks and gifts of mutation for drop pods which is painful, because the dread claw costs a fortune.

CSM don't "receive" marks and GoM they BUY them you pay 10 points for GoM which may or may not be helpful. MoN is amazing, but costs 3 PPM, the other 3 are 2 PPM and range from useful but overpriced to useless and overpriced.

sushi2001 wrote:
Please explain to me why are one better than others???

Because if you upgrade SM and CSM to be equal (Relatively) you end up paying about 2 PPM more for for CSM, and that's not even including the huge amount of flexibility that TM have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phydox wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
CSM squads get to take;

Bolter and bolt pistol
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon (slight extra cost)

I'm not saying CSM squads are as good as loyalists but it's a nice option to have

I was looking for someone to mention this. Chaos Marine Tactical have more versatility.

That's like saying having a midget with a step ladder is a nice option for a basket ball team.

Bolter and Bolt Pistol= Pay for a weapon you will never use

Bolt Pistol and CCW = CC oriented squad that has no effective delivery system.

Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW = 18 PPM with VotLW and Mark upgrades.

Chaos Marines being able to take a CCW does not make up for Drop Pods and Combat Squads

Combat Squads really isn't a big bonus.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Combat Squads really isn't a big bonus.

I can agree to that. Combat Squads is not a big bonus.

You know what it is, though? A bonus. Stock, Space Marines get (for ONE POINT PER MODEL) ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Chapter Tactics.

That's not a fair trade.

I dunno about several of those examples. Other than the Black Mace (I know some people like the Nurgle Prince with this, or giving it to a Sorcerer in a Cabalstar, but I'm eh on it), there are no Fleshbane options for Chaos by default. Other than Plague Marines and Typhus, there are no Poison options for Chaos. The +1 Armor Save definitely has its use, as Chaos Marines don't get Artificer Armor for their Lords, unless they play Crimson Slaughter and use the relic pick for Daemonheart, and Terminator HQs tend to be the exception rather than the norm (though free Terminator Armor is nice for a Lord in the Annihilation Force). And none of the characters get native ID (which isn't just for character/monster-hunting, but also is useful for denying FNP) for their attacks, and Force Weapons are fairly low on the Warp Charge allocation priority.

Regarding edge-cases:

+1 Initiative is fairly useful for Marine vs Marine mirror matches, as or pursuing fleeing Xenos.
+1 BS has its use too; better grenade-tossing always has its use, or lets your Sorcerer hit stuff with Witchfires more.
+1 gun strength is more dependent on getting a worthwhile weapon; worst comes to worst, that means your Bike's TL Bolter gets Psybolt Ammo (whee), while best-case is the Burning Brand or a Chosen Plasma gun (though realistically, it's a Termicide combiplas) becoming nastier.

Anyway, when you're making two rolls free at the start of your turn, the potential is there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really though, a lot of this thread can be summarized as the classic question: Is it a bonus if it doesn't get used?

Combat Squads is largely academic since competitive play favors MSU, making larger squads mostly pointless as the points spent on bodies could be used to buy another unit/grab a free transport in the process. Strictly speaking, Tacticals are better but that doesn't make them good. It's formations like the Gladius or other force multipliers that give them their strength; contrast Khan granting Scout to his army, versus Huron granting D3 infiltrations and having a funky melee weapon...and Huron is the utility character for Chaos! Most every Chaos character is a different flavor of melee beatstick, with some special variant of funky wardance. The question is do you like it choppy, scythy, speedy/whippy, or wizardy.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I've seen surprisingly little talk about Drop Pods here. Even if all else was equal (which it most definitely is not) Drop Pods are miles better than Rhinos, but cost the same. So a Tactical Squad in a Drop Pod is outright superior to a CSM Squad in a Rhino (in most situations, at least).

Also, Plague Marines might be good, but they're overcosted. For 4 Points more, Triarch Praetorians get:

-+1 Strength
-AP 2 melee attacks
-AP 2 ranged attacks
-The Jump Pack unit type

and only lose:

-Poisoned Melee attacks
-Rhinos

To be fair, you are comparing them to Necrons, the byword for resilience nowadays and Plague Marines are taken as troops, almost never as elites, unlike Praetorians. Also, Plague Marines roles and Praetorians are completely different. Plague Marines are sturdy objective holders with decent melee and medium ranged damage with plasma gun upgrades while Praetorians are mobile units that search out weak units to bully and harass. What plague marines need is for their Icon of Despair to give them shrouded rather than fear and more options for plague weaponry, like a bile spewer.