So the new Cadia books, both have Detachments made from multiple factions.
The Reborn Warhost is Eldar, DE, and Harlies.
It states all models gain the Ynnari Faction, but are they still battle brothers? Hence are they still not allowed to use transports outside their codex?
Example: If I field a Reborn Warhost, If I take Harlies, can I also take a raider for my FA choice in the warhost, and deploy them in it?
Here are the rules from GW errata.
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes.
The Detatchment is made up of models that are "battle brothers", but all belong to the same faction...
Page 124 of the Cadia II book states under Army Special Rules:
The following pages present rules for fielding Ynnari army. Units and formations taken as part of the Ynnari formation or REBORN WARHOST have the Ynnari Faction, in addition to their own faction.
Tsilber wrote: Page 124 of the Cadia II book states under Army Special Rules:
The following pages present rules for fielding Ynnari army. Units and formations taken as part of the Ynnari formation or REBORN WARHOST have the Ynnari Faction, in addition to their own faction.
exactly they still are considered their original faction. So they still wouldn't match
Tsilber wrote: Page 124 of the Cadia II book states under Army Special Rules:
The following pages present rules for fielding Ynnari army. Units and formations taken as part of the Ynnari formation or REBORN WARHOST have the Ynnari Faction, in addition to their own faction.
exactly they still are considered their original faction. So they still wouldn't match
Not sure I understand your logic, it clearly states they all have the Ynnari faction, same faction.
In either case, if you were correct, then the answer to my question, in my OP would be "no".
If I am correct, and they are all part of the faction, perhaps it is new territory to see, as another suggested.
So I think Battle Brothers refers exclusively to models with different factions. Models with the same faction are no longer considered BBs, even if they have a second Faction that is different., as they cannot be said to have completely different factions any more.
Galef wrote: So I think Battle Brothers refers exclusively to models with different factions. Models with the same faction are no longer considered BBs, even if they have a second Faction that is different., as they cannot be said to have completely different factions any more.
Many this book needs an FAQ like now
Actually, your logic above makes the most sense, if that is how battle brothers is worded.
If that is the case, then the answer to my OP, would be yes. All infantry units in a Reborn Warhost Detachment, have the same faction, and can ride in any transports taken in the Warhost, regardless what other factions they may have in addition to Ynnari faction.
I suspect that their intention is that if something has the same faction, they can share transports even if they're another faction in addition. Unfortunately, the Allies section talks only about the relationship between units with different factions without explicitly stating that if two units share the same faction you don't worry about the Allies Matrix or what the relationship is. So, just going by RAW you look to see if there are different factions, not the same faction to determine if you can hop in the other guys' transport at the beginning of the game. It should really be FAQ'd now that thy're putting out detachments that can have multiple factions.
I think my preliminary view is that, for example, Eldar/Ynnari are of the same Factions as other Eldar/Ynnari, but are of different Factions to and are Battle Brothers with Dark Eldar/Ynnari and Harlequins/Ynnari.
I think this is supported by the last sentence before 'Levels of Alliance' and the Allies Matrix:
"Irrespective of the method you use to choose your army, this section tells you how models from different Factions fight alongside each other."
Eldar/Ynnari share the same Factions with Eldar/Ynnari, but do not share the same Factions with Dark Eldar/Ynnari or Harlequins/Ynnari.
Galef wrote: So I think Battle Brothers refers exclusively to models with different factions. Models with the same faction are no longer considered BBs, even if they have a second Faction that is different., as they cannot be said to have completely different factions any more.
Many this book needs an FAQ like now
When it comes to Transports, it is the Faction of the unit in question which matters.
Then when we consider the rulings regarding ICs in units regarding some rules, it is possible for a unit to be considered as having more than one Faction.
The Ynnari Faction needs to explicitly state it removes the Faction in order to work. The only case which may possibly override it is Dedicated Transports which gain the Faction of their unit.
But it is still a unit being Battle Brothers with itself. The FAQ team needs to go back and review their rulings on this one and how it interacts with these new books. They really stuck their pens up their arses to pick their noses on this one.
Well all great points, but I think we all see it was intended to be allowed, but the Rules and FAQ on it (prior to this book coming out) will object to it.
Thanks everyone for your input, I will avoid doing it at this time unless I get permission from a T.O. or my opponent prior, its to grey area.
The rules do not have a problem with it, the FAQ does. There is nothing in the Rulebook, either printed, errata, or amended, which prohibits Battle Brothers from Embarking on a Transport at any time.
Mr. Shine wrote: I think my preliminary view is that, for example, Eldar/Ynnari are of the same Factions as other Eldar/Ynnari, but are of different Factions to and are Battle Brothers with Dark Eldar/Ynnari and Harlequins/Ynnari.
It makes a lot of sense, but I think it could also be interpreted the other way.
If a rule says that infantry models can do something, then jump infantry and jetpack infantry models can also do it. So if Ynarri models can embark upon Ynarri transports at deployment, then so could Ynarri/Eldar models.
The same way a jump infantry model can choose to move like normal infantry or use its jump pack, a dual faction model could choose to behave according to a specific faction.
But the Rulebook doesn't explain what happens when a model has two factions at the same time, so I'm afraid there won't be a clear answer without a proper FAQ.
But why did the writers decide that the models should keep their old factions, instead of replacing them? I think it's because they wanted rules saying "Every model with the Eldar faction…" to still apply to Ynarri/Eldar models. And at the same time, allow all Ynarri models to function as the same faction (and not as battle brothers). Otherwise, what is the whole point of the Ynarri faction in the first place?
fresus wrote: It makes a lot of sense, but I think it could also be interpreted the other way.
If a rule says that infantry models can do something, then jump infantry and jetpack infantry models can also do it. So if Ynarri models can embark upon Ynarri transports at deployment, then so could Ynarri/Eldar models.
The same way a jump infantry model can choose to move like normal infantry or use its jump pack, a dual faction model could choose to behave according to a specific faction.
The difference is that Jump/Jet Pack are explicitly effective sub-types of unit, which "occur in addition to another". They are specifically designed to allow for their specific multiple unit types.
See I wonder about this however I think it leans towards ynnari faction models being able to use the transports that are also ynnari faction, ignoring the second faction.
My belief is from this:
If the units original faction mattered, then there would be an issue with allying with eldar, dark eldar, and harlequins with your reborn warhost.
The rules for an allied detachment say that "all units chosen must have a different faction to any other units in your primary detachment (or no faction)" , under its restrictions.
Say you had an eldar farseer, dark eldar raider, and a troupe of harlequins in your primary detachment which was the reborn warhost, you can now not ally with the dark eldar, eldar or harlequin codex since now some of your units would share factions. If you wanted to ally in pure eldar that kept their battle focus, you couldn't since the farseer in the primary detachment would have the same faction as the eldar allies preventing this alliance. Nor could you ally in a dark eldar allied detachment with say grotesques or something, or even ally with any haemonculi covens if you included one dark eldar in your primary.
Therefore, they would all have to count as just one faction, the ynnari faction, regardless of which codex houses the rules for them.
Until a FAQ is presented for this mess of a book, the situation is no different than multi faction situations as before. When a unit has more than one faction, it still has both factions; RAW it may not embark during deployment. This came up before and hasn't changed with this book.
well then i guess ynnari cant ally with eldar, dark eldar, and harlequins if they include them in their primary reborn warhost. Sucks. No heamoncs if you include dark eldar but if you don't, then you can ally haemoncs. makes sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: umm what if we think of this in the reverse. Ynnari are battle brothers with eldar, dark eldar and harlequins. On the flipside eldar, dark eldar and harlequins are battle brothers with ynnari.
You are saying that both factions apply at the same time. That a ynnari model is also eldar/dark eldar/harlequin depending on the model.
According to what you guys are saying, eldar ynnari cannot start in dark eldar ynnari transports because eldar and dark eldar are battle brothers.
HOWEVER, according to this logic, they are also the ynnari faction. And ynnari are battle brothers with eldar, dark eldar, harlequins. So by your own logic, an eldar ynnari couldn't start in an eldar ynnari transport because bam it is a battle brother with it. Does that make sense? Even though they are both eldar, you have stated that they also count as their second faction and the second faction is a battle brother with eldar.
So from your argument, you would have a whole army that cannot start in its transports OR you can just have your ynnari fire dragons in a ynnari venom.
PFI wrote: See I wonder about this however I think it leans towards ynnari faction models being able to use the transports that are also ynnari faction, ignoring the second faction.
My belief is from this:
If the units original faction mattered, then there would be an issue with allying with eldar, dark eldar, and harlequins with your reborn warhost.
The rules for an allied detachment say that "all units chosen must have a different faction to any other units in your primary detachment (or no faction)" , under its restrictions.
Say you had an eldar farseer, dark eldar raider, and a troupe of harlequins in your primary detachment which was the reborn warhost, you can now not ally with the dark eldar, eldar or harlequin codex since now some of your units would share factions. If you wanted to ally in pure eldar that kept their battle focus, you couldn't since the farseer in the primary detachment would have the same faction as the eldar allies preventing this alliance. Nor could you ally in a dark eldar allied detachment with say grotesques or something, or even ally with any haemonculi covens if you included one dark eldar in your primary.
Therefore, they would all have to count as just one faction, the ynnari faction, regardless of which codex houses the rules for them.
Yes, it's an issue for an Allied Detachment. There's no problem, however, if you take a CAD, a different (non-Allied) Detachment or a formation, though. Imperials are going to run into a similar problem when they start using any of the 3 characters from Fall of Cadia as an HQ choice in an Imperial detachment that's a different faction - the rules allow it, but now you have two different factions that you can't take an allied detachment for. I guess if you had really wanted an Allied Detachment you'd have to suck it up, take a second troop unit and take a CAD instead.
Just posting from my interpretation with the rules finally at hand. (they are in spanish so maybe slight translation side)
The Ynnari Factions is comprised by:
Yvraine, Visarch and Yncarne, but this 3 can also be used on any detachment of Eldar, Dark eldar or Harlequin regard of faction. (but still retain their Ynnari faction for BB rules on deployment i think )
Also the new 5 formations are Ynnari faction plus the Reborn Warhost.
This means you can't claim you are playing Ynnari unless you field either the Reborn Warhost or any of the 5 specific formations.
In short you can't make any formation,Cad or Allied Detachment as Ynnari unless you field either the Reborn Warhost or the new formations.
quickfuze wrote: Until a FAQ is presented for this mess of a book, the situation is no different than multi faction situations as before. When a unit has more than one faction, it still has both factions; RAW it may not embark during deployment. This came up before and hasn't changed with this book.
This interpretation is hotly disputed and has been heavily debated just recently on this very forum.
Some people interpret the FAQ as saying they must have ALL factions in common while some say that since they have A faction in common you don't even go to the Allies Matrix.
I think they have two factions for a reason - other none-ynarri aeldari (Craftworld, dark and Harlequin) have rules that mention other eldar models, not including ynarri (obviously, as they're new).
Example: avatar of khaine. He has a rule that gives friendly eldar within 12" the fearless, rage and furious charge USR's. If the Ynarri units only had one faction, then a unit of Ynarri dire avengers within 12" of the avatar wouldn't benefit. With dual factions, they do (along with other rules).
The FAQ also discusses rules for fighting units that have more than one faction. It says that when using say preferred enemy (faction X) or Hatred (faction X) and you have an enemy unit containing models from faction X and Faction Y, treat the enemy unit as being both.
This would mean if someone has preferred enemy (eldar), it would work against ynarri units that also have the eldar faction.
Regarding transports, the dual faction works here too. Though eldar and dark eldar are battle brothers and can't normally deploy on each others transports, Ynarri and Ynarri are the same faction, regardless of having a second faction, and so I would say they can deploy on each others transports.
Consider one more example. Ynarri are battle brothers with Eldar. If I choose a Ynarri unit of Dire Avengers and take a dedicated transport for them, I could argue that the dire avengers are Ynarri and the dedicated transport is Eldar, and therefore battle brothers. The dire avengers cannot deploy on their own dedicated transport!
This leads me to say that as long as you share one faction with another unit, you are the same faction for allies matrix purposes.
Though this would mean you can't take a ynarri allied detachment if your primary detachment contains eldar, dark eldar or harlequins:
All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction).
Regarding transports, the dual faction works here too. Though eldar and dark eldar are battle brothers and can't normally deploy on each others transports, Ynarri and Ynarri are the same faction, regardless of having a second faction, and so I would say they can deploy on each others transports.
Consider one more example. Ynarri are battle brothers with Eldar. If I choose a Ynarri unit of Dire Avengers and take a dedicated transport for them, I could argue that the dire avengers are Ynarri and the dedicated transport is Eldar, and therefore battle brothers. The dire avengers cannot deploy on their own dedicated transport!
This leads me to say that as long as you share one faction with another unit, you are the same faction for allies matrix purposes.
That's what they probably intended and is easy to believe it's RAI, but RAW right now you can't. According to the rules as they stand you don't look to see if they're the same faction and then ignore the Allies Matrix if they are, since there's no rule for that. The only written rule to go by is the unit has a different faction from the transport it can't be deployed in that transport at the start of the game (as per the Main ruebook FAQ, which pretty much messed up the whole situation). It's something to talk about with the people you game with before playing. They'd probably be reasonable with this, but right now unless we get a FAQ you can't just make a blanket assumption that they can deploy in the transsport if they share one of two factions with it when there's a second faction they don't.
The issue with this discussion is that some people are assuming that 'same' Faction is what allows stuff, but in actuality it is 'different' Faction that matters. Models with different factions count as allies (in this case BBs) and thus cannot deploy in each other's transports
There are only 3 models with the Ynnari Faction: the Triumvirate. All other units are Ynnari/Eldar, Ynnari/Dark Eldar or Ynnari/Harlequin. Ynnari/Eldar Banshees are a different faction than a Ynnari/Dark Eldar Raider, and thus could not deploy in said Raider.
I already mentioned what warhanna was saying earlier. If we go by the dual faction ally matrix way of determining transports for ynnari then no ynnari could start in any transport as the ynnari faction is a battle brother with any of the secondary factions the unit possesses (harlequin, dark eldar and eldar)
Eg ynnari eldar dire avengers cannot start in ynnari eldar waves er pent as both would be battle brothers with the other unit despite having the exact same faction.
Even not making a blanket assumption, we can't assume this is the case because an army not being able to start in any transports period is both unheard of and dumb, so we have to assume there is either two cases left to us.
1) a unit can start in a transport as long as both factions of the unit matches both factions of the transport which is less likely then
2) a unit that shares at least one faction with a transport can start in the transport.
Sadly we can't determine either... although I would lean towards the second case and it makes more sense that a unit from the same detachment as a non dedicated transport should be able to start in it.
In khorne demonkin they gave all of them the same faction making this question easier. It would have been easier if they said have ynnari faction but count as their other faction for special rules.
I assume you are referring to this? Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment? A: No.
This is not a rule. it is guidance from an FAQ. It is intended to solve rules disputes.
It is not intended to be paraded about as a reason to cause rules disputes, when the rules are very clear.
Units which are the same faction, do not have to apply the allies matrix. They have no problem getting in their transports
.
Thank you for proving my point that people are treating all Ynnari are the same faction with no consideration to that fact that some are different factions. It is clear via the FAQ (which I consider to be rules, as should you) the units that as BBs cannot deploy in each other's transport. You quoted that yourself
Ynnari/Eldar Banshees are BBs with Ynnari/Dark Eldar Raider as they have different faction. One has Eldar, the other has Dark Eldar. It does not matter that they both also have Ynnari, as the allies matrix is applied to units with different factions, which these 2 units have. Thus they consider each other BBs
Lord Perversor wrote: Warhanna, you can take Ynnari as allys but only if you field the. In a Reborn warhost or in one of the Fracture of. Biel-Tan new formations.
The Ynnari rules specify you only can field them as such so no regular CAD or Ally CAD allowed as Ynnari
You are quite right, thank you. I didn't know that. But then the opposite still applies - if you have a Ynarri Rebort Warhost or one of the Ynarri formations as your primart detachment, you cannot then have an Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequin Allied Detachment, right?
just going by RAW you look to see if there are different factions, not the same faction to determine if you can hop in the other guys' transport at the beginning of the game. It should really be FAQ'd
In the FAQ, the question that explicitly states what Battle Brothers can do in each others transports is actually right before the question about what SAME Faction units can do with each other's transports:
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes.
In fact, the above FAQ question goes one better, as it's saying they don't even have to be in the same detachment, they just need the same faction.
If we are saying these Ynarri units have both factions, both of the above FAQ questions apply, which is a bit annoying. I'm inclined to think GW would say "Having both factions overrides not having the same faction".
I agree that the original interpretation of the rule was clear and the FAQ blatantly changed it, but that doesn't make it any less of a rule*
*and by rule I mean the instruction we have been given by the company that writes the instructions by which we play this game. You can denounce the FAQ all you want (and I'll agree there are some head scratchers) but by the strictest application of this game, the FAQ/Erratas are the final word. Choosing not to use them is fine, but at that point you are making a house rule. Not everyone uses the same house rules, but EVERYONE can use the same FAQ.
My frustration with this is that I believe that Ynnari units should be able to deploy in each other transports, no matter what there original faction is. They are all Ynnari But since there is still a bit of grey and this is a new unique situation, I am preparing myself for the argument against it.
I think it's pretty clear that all units in the reborn war-hosts are the same faction. So being the same faction and even being taken in the same detachment. I don't know how you could argue that I couldn't take a DE Raider (fast attack section) and put 5 WG in it at the start of the game.
-Reborn warhosts units can use any reborn warhosts vehicals for transport.
-Reborn warhost Eldar units can use a CAD Beil-Tan Eldars transports too.
Dont forget none of this overrides the dedicated transport rulings. You still have to follow those.
these multi faction detachments are just plain banana's in terms of what can do what.
Why don't they just FAQ stating that a detachment that has multiple units from different factions do not use allies as they are one faction for rules purposes
Xenomancers wrote: I think it's pretty clear that all units in the reborn war-hosts are the same faction. So being the same faction and even being taken in the same detachment. I don't know how you could argue that I couldn't take a DE Raider (fast attack section) and put 5 WG in it at the start of the game.
-Reborn warhosts units can use any reborn warhosts vehicals for transport. -Reborn warhost Eldar units can use a CAD Beil-Tan Eldars transports too.
Dont forget none of this overrides the dedicated transport rulings. You still have to follow those.
The argument (and please let me be clear, I do not agree with this, but) is that while they are the SAME faction, they are also DIFFERENT factions if taken from other codices (Eldar & Harlies, for example). So while this would apply: Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment? A: Yes
This would also apply:: Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment? A: No.
So the question is whether they are the Same faction or Different faction. They cannot be both AND still satisfy both above FAQs Until FAQ'd, this is basically a roll-off situation, which means you still can't build a list around it as you might loss the roll off. Then what are your WG gonna do? Emark turn 1 onto a dead Raider?
Xenomancers wrote: I think it's pretty clear that all units in the reborn war-hosts are the same faction. So being the same faction and even being taken in the same detachment. I don't know how you could argue that I couldn't take a DE Raider (fast attack section) and put 5 WG in it at the start of the game.
-Reborn warhosts units can use any reborn warhosts vehicals for transport.
-Reborn warhost Eldar units can use a CAD Beil-Tan Eldars transports too.
Dont forget none of this overrides the dedicated transport rulings. You still have to follow those.
The argument (and please let me be clear, I do not agree with this, but) is that while they are the SAME faction, they are also DIFFERENT factions if taken from other codices (Eldar & Harlies, for example). So while this would apply:
Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes
This would also apply::
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
So the question is whether they are the Same faction or Different faction. They cannot be both AND still satisfy both above FAQs Until FAQ'd, this is basically a roll-off situation, which means you still can't build a list around it as you might loss the roll off. Then what are your WG gonna do? Emark turn 1 onto a dead Raider?
-
Sadly, I now agree with this, RAW. The ally matrix says you have to use it when two models have different factions (which they do), and says nothing about models that have different factions, while still having a faction in common. So you're both allowed and forbidden to embark upon each other transports…
That being said, I played yesterday and everybody was okay for shared transport, as it seems in the spirit of the new Ynarri detachment (and people not interested in Ynarri never imagined it could be anything different). I think most people would be okay with this ruling, but I think it's a houserule at the moment.
Ynnari/Eldar Banshees are BBs with Ynnari/Dark Eldar Raider as they have different faction. One has Eldar, the other has Dark Eldar.
It does not matter that they both also have Ynnari, as the allies matrix is applied to units with different factions, which these 2 units have. Thus they consider each other BBs
If you want to think ynnari eldar and ynnari dark eldar are battle brothers with each other, what about pure ynnari models and ynnari eldar/dark eldar/harlequins. Would that mean yvraine and the visarch can't start in transports in a ynnari detachment as all those transports and their second faction would be battle brothers as yvraine and the visarch are only ynnari and not any other faction? These characters are forever forced to start the game on foot? Doesn't that seem like an unnecessary ding against them?
Hard to understand how people are rules lawyering that two units that have the faction Ynnari cannot be the same faction. Pretending that 'Ynnari/Dark Eldar' is a specific faction is pure nonsense.
The book states that all units in the reborn warhost have the Ynnari faction, thus they are the same faction and the allies rule doesn't apply.
Taking them outside the detachment that grants that faction would remove their ability to share a ride.
This kind of thing will definitely be clarified if 40k adopts the keywords system that AOS uses.
Silentz wrote: Hard to understand how people are rules lawyering that two units that have the faction Ynnari cannot be the same faction. Pretending that 'Ynnari/Dark Eldar' is a specific faction is pure nonsense.
The book states that all units in the reborn warhost have the Ynnari faction, thus they are the same faction and the allies rule doesn't apply.
Taking them outside the detachment that grants that faction would remove their ability to share a ride.
This kind of thing will definitely be clarified if 40k adopts the keywords system that AOS uses.
The last quote on the rule I read stated that they gain the Ynarri faction in addition to their current one. In other words, the units in the detachments carry two Factions with them at all time.
So while their Eldar Faction may not trigger the Allies rules, the Ynnari would be Battle Brothers to the Eldar, and vice versa.
So, if that quote was correct, then they will always be Battle Brothers to every other unit in that same detachment, even if they are Dedicated Transports.
Silentz wrote: Hard to understand how people are rules lawyering that two units that have the faction Ynnari cannot be the same faction. Pretending that 'Ynnari/Dark Eldar' is a specific faction is pure nonsense.
The book states that all units in the reborn warhost have the Ynnari faction, thus they are the same faction and the allies rule doesn't apply.
Taking them outside the detachment that grants that faction would remove their ability to share a ride.
This kind of thing will definitely be clarified if 40k adopts the keywords system that AOS uses.
The last quote on the rule I read stated that they gain the Ynarri faction in addition to their current one. In other words, the units in the detachments carry two Factions with them at all time.
So while their Eldar Faction may not trigger the Allies rules, the Ynnari would be Battle Brothers to the Eldar, and vice versa.
Sorry, but I totally disagree with your conclusion there. I have no skin in the game - don't have a single Eldar model - but it seems clear that units in that detachment are all granted the faction Ynnari and become the same faction as each other. Yes, they have their codex detachments as well but that is irrelevant for this interaction.
They are the same faction (Ynnari) in the same Detachment (Reborn Warhost) so the Allies rules do not come into play.
Ynnari/Eldar - Ynnari/Eldar = Same Factions, can start in transport Ynnari/Eldar - Ynnari/Dark Eldar = Same Faction AND Different Factions, cannot start in transport
Same Faction units can begin in Same Faction transports. Different Factions cannot If you have 1 'can' and 1 'cannot', then the answer is 'cannot' It is really that simple
Otherwise, a unit that fired an Assault weapon at unit A, could charge unit B instead. Assault weapons give permission to assault, but you still have to charge the unit you shot at Or, Units in a Raider that Deep Strikes could disembark and assault that turn. Open-topped makes the Raider an assault vehicle, but you still cannot assault from Reserves In both cases, you have a "can" and a "cannot". You must have permission in every regard to do an action. 1 "cannot" in a see of "cans" is still a "cannot"
Silentz wrote: Sorry, but I totally disagree with your conclusion there. I have no skin in the game - don't have a single Eldar model - but it seems clear that units in that detachment are all granted the faction Ynnari and become the same faction as each other. Yes, they have their codex detachments as well but that is irrelevant for this interaction.
They are the same faction (Ynnari) in the same Detachment (Reborn Warhost) so the Allies rules do not come into play.
Nope. Unless it was a misquote of the rule, I am perfectly accurate.
Galef wrote: Ynnari/Eldar - Ynnari/Eldar = Same Factions, can start in transport
Ynnari/Eldar - Ynnari/Dark Eldar = Same Faction AND Different Factions, cannot start in transport
Same Faction units can begin in Same Faction transports. Different Factions cannot
If you have 1 'can' and 1 'cannot', then the answer is 'cannot'
It is really that simple
Otherwise, a unit that fired an Assault weapon at unit A, could charge unit B instead. Assault weapons give permission to assault, but you still have to charge the unit you shot at
Or, Units in a Raider that Deep Strikes could disembark and assault that turn. Open-topped makes the Raider an assault vehicle, but you still cannot assault from Reserves
In both cases, you have a "can" and a "cannot". You must have permission in every regard to do an action. 1 "cannot" in a see of "cans" is still a "cannot"
This is your misconception, there is no Ynnari/Eldar Faction. Ynnari and Eldar are two separate Factions, not the same Faction. The Ynnari is Battle Brothers to Eldar, and vice versa.
When it is checked to see if the Ynnari & Eldar Transport can carry a unit, it will see Eldar and Ynnari Factions in the unit. The Ynnari of the Transport is Battle Brothers with the Eldar of the Unit, and the Eldar of the Transport is Battle Brothers with the Ynnari of the unit.
So we have a case of 1 cannot and 1 can, the cannots win.
If you could quote the rule as being different than the "in addition to" that has been previously submitted, then I will accede.
Galef wrote: Ynnari/Eldar - Ynnari/Eldar = Same Faction, can start in transport
Ynnari/Eldar - Ynnari/Dark Eldar = Same Faction AND Different Faction, cannot start in transport
It is really that simple
For the record, I I donn't think it is that simple - I understand your point that you feel ALL factions should match, but I think ANY faction matching is sufficient to say they are the same faction. I don't agree with your assertion that Ynnari/Dark Eldar is a faction. I think the unit is both Ynnari AND Dark Eldar, not some kind of combo. Ynnari is a faction. Both have it. That's good enough for me to say they are the same faction.
I dunno. Why they don't FAQ this transports ruling is beyond me, particularly as they keep releasing new books (Imperial Agents, Fall of Cadia and Fracture of Biel Tan) which immediately throw everyone's arms in the air asking the same question over and over.
I see what you are saying, Charistoph, but it's implications mean that no Aeldari unit can ever start in its own Dedicated transport. And that is quite frankly ridiculous. The best way to resolve this is to consider units with all the same factions in common as, well, the same faction and not different. Or have any units with a single faction in common as wholly the same faction, no matter what other factions those units may have.
GW really should have just said that Ynnari "replaces" the existing faction, while still counting as their original faction for rules that apply to Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequins.
And btw, I am not saying the Ynnari/Eldar is a faction, I am just using that as short hand for a unit that is both Ynnari and Eldar.
Galef wrote: I see what you are saying, Charistoph, but it's implications mean that no Aeldari unit can ever start in its own Dedicated transport. And that is quite frankly ridiculous.
The best way to resolve this is to consider units with all the same factions in common as, well, the same faction and not different. Or have any units with a single faction in common as wholly the same faction, no matter what other factions those units may have.
There are a lot of GW rules that cause such situations, but you were presenting it as how the written rules were presented, not how you would play it. Sadly, the FAQ messed this part up more than anything known.
And no, this is not the best way to resolve this. The best way to resolve it is change the FAQ answer regarding Battle Brothers and Transports to reflect what is actually written in the rulebook.
The next best way to resolve it is:
Galef wrote: GW really should have just said that Ynnari "replaces" the existing faction, while still counting as their original faction for rules that apply to Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequins.
This gets around those pesky little things, but that would also mean that GW cares enough about the game to take time to map out their rules. That's not going to happen till the next edition, at least.
Galef wrote: And btw, I am not saying the Ynnari/Eldar is a faction, I am just using that as short hand for a unit that is both Ynnari and Eldar.
It was presented as such, which leads to confusion for other readers and can lead the writer into a mistaken premises by eventually believing what they have written. A similar convention when considering how certain people believe Stubborn "confers".
Or we could apply the guidance given in the faq in the context it is given, and not apply it in a way that breaks perfectly clear rules? Rules which represent a new dynamic, unspecified by any FAQ.
This is one of the better written bits in the new book , it allows everything in the one detachment to get along.(unlike the issues in the fall of Cadia detachment)
Considering that all the units in question were already battle brothers. What would be the purpose of creating a new faction called Ynnari if the units in question weren't intended to function like they were in fact their own faction? It would be a complete waste of time if the intention was not to allow these units to function together like they would if they were from the same codex (which they actually are) because everything would function exactly the same with just the battle brothers and ally matrix (if your understanding of factions is that a unit with 2 factions is actually a unique factions instead of having 2 factions they function with.)
Xenomancers wrote: Considering that all the units in question were already battle brothers. What would be the purpose of creating a new faction called Ynnari if the units in question weren't intended to function like they were in fact their own faction? It would be a complete waste of time if the intention was not to allow these units to function together like they would if they were from the same codex (which they actually are) because everything would function exactly the same with just the battle brothers and ally matrix (if your understanding of factions is that a unit with 2 factions is actually a unique factions instead of having 2 factions they function with.)
Yes, the intention is clear, and when I played no one had issues with shared transports for Ynarris. I suppose many players would feel the same.
It's just that some places (like most tournaments), don't care at all about RAI, but only about RAW.
As far i'm concerned the double faction only applies to the armies they can be part, ( windriders are Eldar faction so only eligible for Eldar armies, when fielded in Ynnari armies they gain the Ynnari faction and count as Ynnari not both)
This means if i field a Ynnari detachment all units within are Ynnati faction and BB to Eldar,DE or Harlies.
I think people are giving to much importance to doble faction when all it indicates it's this unit can be fielded as part of 2 different factions.
I'll have to look this up later, but at least in Magic if a card says to target a "non-black" creature, and the creature is black and green, then you still can't target it because it IS black, regardless of what other colours it has. From what I've seen here, the rules ask whether two models have different factions. By the RAW, it doesn't matter if they're the same AND different faction, because by definition they do have a different faction. If this is worded even just slightly differently (checks to see if they're NOT the same faction), then it'll see that they ARE the same faction, because whether or not they are also a different faction wouldn't matter.
So yeah, if it defines allies as being a unit with a different faction, then they're Battle Brothers and can't start in each other's transports, even if they're both Ynnari.
However, if it defines allies as being a unit that doesn't have the same faction, then they're not Battle Brothers and CAN start in each other's transports, because they're all Ynnari.
Consider one more example. Ynarri are battle brothers with Eldar. If I choose a Ynarri unit of Dire Avengers and take a dedicated transport for them, I could argue that the dire avengers are Ynarri and the dedicated transport is Eldar, and therefore battle brothers. The dire avengers cannot deploy on their own dedicated transport!
Actually this example is flawed because the FAQ states:
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
Underline emphasis mine - it has nothing to say about units trying to embark in their own dedicated transport so they can.
I don't like the magic analogy but i'll bite on it because it has similar logical ques.
There is a lot of destroy target non black creature cards in magic. You can't use them on any creature including multi colored creatures that have a black type. Black green creatures are still immune to destroy target non black creature kills.
Same can be said about determining the type of creature. If you have a mana cost of that color type - you are that type regardless of all other types.
Same can said about land walk - you control 1 mountain? and 3 swamps? They can mountain walk on you.
Factions I believe work the same way. As long as you have a matching faction - you are the same faction - regardless of all other factions.
Xenomancers wrote: Considering that all the units in question were already battle brothers. What would be the purpose of creating a new faction called Ynnari if the units in question weren't intended to function like they were in fact their own faction? It would be a complete waste of time if the intention was not to allow these units to function together like they would if they were from the same codex (which they actually are) because everything would function exactly the same with just the battle brothers and ally matrix (if your understanding of factions is that a unit with 2 factions is actually a unique factions instead of having 2 factions they function with.)
Yes, the intention is clear, and when I played no one had issues with shared transports for Ynarris. I suppose many players would feel the same.
It's just that some places (like most tournaments), don't care at all about RAI, but only about RAW.
I suspect this wont be an issue for 99% of players....
Consider one more example. Ynarri are battle brothers with Eldar. If I choose a Ynarri unit of Dire Avengers and take a dedicated transport for them, I could argue that the dire avengers are Ynarri and the dedicated transport is Eldar, and therefore battle brothers. The dire avengers cannot deploy on their own dedicated transport!
Actually this example is flawed because the FAQ states:
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
Underline emphasis mine - it has nothing to say about units trying to embark in their own dedicated transport so they can.
The rules for dedicated transports on page 120 say "but for all other rules purposes count as having the same Battlefield role and Faction (if any)" the dedicated transport would have the same factions as the Dire Avengers. We're really dealing more with a question such as could a Ynarri Farseer be joined to a unit of Ynarri Kabelite Warriors and deploy in their Raider.. As the rules stand, even though both are Ynarri, one is Eldar and one is Dark Eldar faction, so you couldn't.
Consider one more example. Ynarri are battle brothers with Eldar. If I choose a Ynarri unit of Dire Avengers and take a dedicated transport for them, I could argue that the dire avengers are Ynarri and the dedicated transport is Eldar, and therefore battle brothers. The dire avengers cannot deploy on their own dedicated transport!
Actually this example is flawed because the FAQ states:
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
Underline emphasis mine - it has nothing to say about units trying to embark in their own dedicated transport so they can.
Expanding on this, the FAQ does not say a unit can never deploy in a transport with a different faction, only that battle brothers can't deploy in each other's transports. If the unit and transport share a faction it seems like there is a strong case for saying they are deploying in their own transport, so the each other's clause never comes into play.
Expanding on this, the FAQ does not say a unit can never deploy in a transport with a different faction, only that battle brothers can't deploy in each other's transports. If the unit and transport share a faction it seems like there is a strong case for saying they are deploying in their own transport, so the each other's clause never comes into play.
The issue is that we do not know if units on a Reborn Host are considered BBs or not. There is no precedent for units with multiple Factions.
Take a Reborn Host with WraithGuard and a Raider. They are both Ynnari. Cool. But they are also Eldar & Dark Eldar respectively.
Even though they are from the SAME detachment, having different factions makes them treat each other like BBs. Ergo having the same faction wouldn't matter.
HYWPI: Ynnari are Ynnari and can start in each others transports. But I could not, in good conscience, support that RAW.
Expanding on this, the FAQ does not say a unit can never deploy in a transport with a different faction, only that battle brothers can't deploy in each other's transports. If the unit and transport share a faction it seems like there is a strong case for saying they are deploying in their own transport, so the each other's clause never comes into play.
The issue is that we do not know if units on a Reborn Host are considered BBs or not. There is no precedent for units with multiple Factions.
Take a Reborn Host with WraithGuard and a Raider. They are both Ynnari. Cool. But they are also Eldar & Dark Eldar respectively.
Even though they are from the SAME detachment, having different factions makes them treat each other like BBs. Ergo having the same faction wouldn't matter.
HYWPI: Ynnari are Ynnari and can start in each others transports. But I could not, in good conscience, support that RAW.
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I'm inclined to think they are not meant to test each other as BB. In fact I think the whole reason they keep their original faction is (ironically considering the thread) so they can deploy in their original faction's transports.
I don't think it needs to matter when talking about Ynnari units and Ynnari transports though. Ownership isn't exclusively yours or mine, it could also be ours. To the WG dude in your example, any Ynnari transports or Eldar transports would be seen by him as mine. Any Dark Eldar transports yours/theirs. Any Ynnari/Dark Eldar transports though he would see at worst as ours. If ours then he still had ownership so he's not using "each other's" transport, he's using his own. The fact that there is a BB faction involved doesn't matter as long as he's not using someone else's transport.
That's how I see it and I'm a certain as it's possible to be when speculating on someone else's reasoning that is how the rules writers for this intended it to be viewed. Of course we could have eliminated any ambiguity had they bothered to explain their FAQ answer instead of just "No."
Expanding on this, the FAQ does not say a unit can never deploy in a transport with a different faction, only that battle brothers can't deploy in each other's transports. If the unit and transport share a faction it seems like there is a strong case for saying they are deploying in their own transport, so the each other's clause never comes into play.
The issue is that we do not know if units on a Reborn Host are considered BBs or not. There is no precedent for units with multiple Factions.
Take a Reborn Host with WraithGuard and a Raider. They are both Ynnari. Cool. But they are also Eldar & Dark Eldar respectively.
Even though they are from the SAME detachment, having different factions makes them treat each other like BBs. Ergo having the same faction wouldn't matter.
HYWPI: Ynnari are Ynnari and can start in each others transports. But I could not, in good conscience, support that RAW.
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I'm inclined to think they are not meant to treat each other as BB. In fact I think the whole reason they keep their original faction is (ironically considering the thread) so they can deploy in their original faction's transports.
I don't think it needs to matter when talking about Ynnari units and Ynnari transports though. Ownership isn't exclusively yours or mine, it could also be ours. To the WG dude in your example, any Ynnari transports or Eldar transports would be seen by him as mine. Any Dark Eldar transports yours/theirs. Any Ynnari/Dark Eldar transports though he would see at worst as ours. If ours then he still had ownership so he's not using "each other's" transport, he's using his own. The fact that there is a BB faction involved doesn't matter as long as he's not using someone else's transport.
That's how I see it and I'm a certain as it's possible to be when speculating on someone else's reasoning that is how the rules writers for this intended it to be viewed. Of course we could have eliminated any ambiguity had they bothered to explain their FAQ answer instead of just "No."
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more I think about it the more it seems you would only have to match one faction to exempt the unit from the each other clause. Any other interpretation seems to lead to Ynnari units can never deploy in transports. Even if you have WG (factions Ynnari and Eldar) and a Wave Serpent (factions Ynnari and Eldar), you still have the problem since Ynnari and Eldar are BB with each other. So even with an exact faction match you still have a BB transport.
I would say that if you have a reborn warhost with a unit of dire avengers in it, and a Combined Arms Detachment formed of Dark Eldar with a Raider in it, then they are battle brothers as both ynarri and eldar are BB with dark eldar, and the dire avengers couldn't deploy in it.
If you had the same reborn warhost but had a CAD of eldar instead, and that CAD had a wave serpent in it, the dire avengers could deploy in it as a unit can deploy in transports of the same faction, even if it is in a different detachment.
Within the reborn warhost, I'd say any unit within the detachment could deploy in any (non dedicated) transport within the same reborn war host (or ynarri formation) as they also share the same faction, regardless of the fact they also have second factions. That's HIWPI and I understand that there isn't enough RAW to show this 100%.
SO I disagree with the Assertion that when they speak of factions, that everything now has 2, such as Yn/Eldar, Yn/Dark Eldar
If we went off the wording of this methodology of thinking, Under the forces of Ynnari rules in the new rule book, the special rules entry would not have any merit and not be needed.
It says Units with the Ynnari Faction use the following special rules in addition to the those presented in their codex, but lose ancient doom, battle focus, and power from pain.
This entry does not say "Units with the Ynnari/dark eldar faction..." Or , "Units with the Ynnari/Eldar faction..."
Effectively no units would gain the Strength of death rule, no units would be able to use artifacts, and no units would lose power from pain, ancient doom, or battle focus.
Warhanna wrote:I would say that if you have a reborn warhost with a unit of dire avengers in it, and a Combined Arms Detachment formed of Dark Eldar with a Raider in it, then they are battle brothers as both ynarri and eldar are BB with dark eldar, and the dire avengers couldn't deploy in it.
If you had the same reborn warhost but had a CAD of eldar instead, and that CAD had a wave serpent in it, the dire avengers could deploy in it as a unit can deploy in transports of the same faction, even if it is in a different detachment.
Within the reborn warhost, I'd say any unit within the detachment could deploy in any (non dedicated) transport within the same reborn war host (or ynarri formation) as they also share the same faction, regardless of the fact they also have second factions. That's HIWPI and I understand that there isn't enough RAW to show this 100%.
Allies Rules are not ignored if you have the same Faction. If you can prove they are completely ignored if the units share one Faction, please provide them.
They are triggered "between units that have different Factions in the same army." Ynnari is different from Eldar, therefore Allie rules are triggered. It really is that simple.
The fact that the Dire Avengers have Faction Eldar is immaterial, the issue is that they ALSO have the Ynnari Faction, which is a different, Battle Brother Faction to the Eldar.
Tsilber wrote:SO I disagree with the Assertion that when they speak of factions, that everything now has 2, such as Yn/Eldar, Yn/Dark Eldar
If we went off the wording of this methodology of thinking, Under the forces of Ynnari rules in the new rule book, the special rules entry would not have any merit and not be needed.
It says Units with the Ynnari Faction use the following special rules in addition to the those presented in their codex, but lose ancient doom, battle focus, and power from pain.
This entry does not say "Units with the Ynnari/dark eldar faction..." Or , "Units with the Ynnari/Eldar faction..."
Effectively no units would gain the Strength of death rule, no units would be able to use artifacts, and no units would lose power from pain, ancient doom, or battle focus.
Incorrect. Those rules only look to see if you have the Faction, they do not care if you have another Faction. The Allies rules check to see if you have a different Faction.
Much like the Character rules do not check to see if the model is Infantry, Beast, or Monstrous Creature, they still take affect, however the Look Out Sir rule checks to see if the model is a Character.
So, got the rulebook in front of me now, and it says that the allies chart occurs when you have "units that have different Factions in the same army". By this wording, there is a simple question; "do they have a different Faction?". The answer, unfortunately, is yes. As such, by the RAW. a Yn/Eldar could not start in a Yn/Dark Eldar transport. They specifically are both Ynnari, Eldar, and Dark Eldar.
That said, I strongly feel that the idea is that they ARE the same Faction, and not different factions from each other. I believe that is the intent. As such, I think the RAI should be that they can start in each other's transports in a Ynnari force, and that an FAQ should state as such. The only reason they probably had them gain the Ynnari faction in addition to their current one is so that if someone has something that works against Eldar, but not against Dark Eldar, or the other way around, it still works against those units even though they're in a different Faction's force.
Guys... you are all overthinking that rules... Its only ment for allied detachment
If you build a Ynnari CAD They are primarly Ynnari this mean they have acces to all the stuff Ynnari share (special rules, vehicule etc....)
They Also keep their former faction ( why?? ) cause their's to many codex and supplement filled with single faction rules, artifact, weapon... etc... having to remake all those whould have made Fracture of biel-tan book like 1300 page so they deceided to say instead of making one HUGE bible... just give them the ynnari faction + (ref. to previous faction for arsenal, rules, artefact... etc).
BUT!!!!
If you take a Allied detachment let say... Eldar in your Ynnari CAD... this Eldar allied detachment got the battlebrother tag and dont have acces to Ynnari faction stuff.
Big-E wrote: Guys... you are all overthinking that rules... Its only ment for allied detachment
Incorrect. The rules for Allies never state "detachment" once. It's for units between different Factions. The Allied Detachment alone has not been in consideration for this since 7th Edition launched, and even a little before with the early Formations. It affects how close some units can be deployed to each other. It also involves Transports during Deployment, for some inexplicable, unwritten reason.
Big-E wrote: If you build a Ynnari CAD They are primarly Ynnari this mean they have acces to all the stuff Ynnari share (special rules, vehicule etc....)
They Also keep their former faction ( why?? ) cause their's to many codex and supplement filled with single faction rules, artifact, weapon... etc... having to remake all those whould have made Fracture of biel-tan book like 1300 page so they deceided to say instead of making one HUGE bible... just give them the ynnari faction + (ref. to previous faction for arsenal, rules, artefact... etc).
Actually, there is no reason to keep their former Faction. Indeed, it would be better off the rule that stated that it replaced their Eldar/Dark Eldar Faction with Ynnari.
If you take a Allied detachment let say... Eldar in your Ynnari CAD... this Eldar allied detachment got the battlebrother tag and dont have acces to Ynnari faction stuff.
Actually, you can't take an Allied Detachment of Craftworld with an Ynnari Primary CAD that has any Eldar in it. The Ynnari CAD would have both Ynnari and Eldar units, and the Allied Detachment's Restrictions state that, "All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction)." Again, you using 6th Edition standards for a 7th Edition book design.
Charistoph wrote: ually, there is no reason to keep their former Faction. Indeed, it would be better off the rule that stated that it replaced their Eldar/Dark Eldar Faction with Ynnari.
Actually there is, if their intention was that if you have one faction in common between units you disregard the factions that aren't in common. It would allow a unit with Ynarri and a second faction to deploy in a transport of another detachment that was only that second faction (for example, an Ynarri Autarch could join a Craftworld Eldar unit from another detachment in their transport if that was their thinking. That would be my thought as to why they keep the old detachmetn Of course, they have not bothered to come out and actually state that iif something has multiple factions, if one faction is the same as a different unit you don't worry about the other faction(s) listed. It would be nice if they could put something out to make that clear, maybe if they put out a FAQ for this book.
As you point out, though, keeping the second faction means not taking an Allied Detachment of that faction, but you can still take any other type of detachment for that faction. (And, Big-E, Charistoph is right about the Allies Matrix being for units with different factions in general, not just for Allied Detachments)
You cant speak in absolution, and only use parts or certain phrasing to strengthen your Opinion. There is no clear answer at this time no matter how much we say "incorrect", or add/take away different assumptions of another person. I got my answer from the T.O. Of the next adult run tourney ill be playing in. Warhost units can ride in any transports from warhost, regardless what book or "prior" faction they might of had. I assume most tourneys will aee it this way. If they dont, then i plan accordingly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Allow me to add, i thank everyone for their feedback and opinions on the YMTC, question. Its opinion base of the rules written, and i appreciate the opinions shared.
I assume you are referring to this?
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
This is not a rule. it is guidance from an FAQ. It is intended to solve rules disputes.
It is not intended to be paraded about as a reason to cause rules disputes, when the rules are very clear.
Units which are the same faction, do not have to apply the allies matrix. They have no problem getting in their transports
.
Thank you for proving my point that people are treating all Ynnari are the same faction with no consideration to that fact that some are different factions.
It is clear via the FAQ (which I consider to be rules, as should you) the units that as BBs cannot deploy in each other's transport. You quoted that yourself
Ynnari/Eldar Banshees are BBs with Ynnari/Dark Eldar Raider as they have different faction. One has Eldar, the other has Dark Eldar.
It does not matter that they both also have Ynnari, as the allies matrix is applied to units with different factions, which these 2 units have. Thus they consider each other BBs
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This logic only applies if you look at them at dual faction, which is seriously overthinking things. They are Ynnari. They are also Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins. They are not Ynnari-Eldar, Ynnari-Dark Eldar, Ynnari-Harlequinns. When I look at them in Terms of the Host Reborn, they are all just Ynnari and can get in any Ynnari tranports. If you put in a Eldar CAD with a Ynnari Reborn Warhost, then you cannot use their transports across because one is Ynnari and the other Eldar, even though the Ynnari share Eldar as a faction.
Tsilber wrote: You cant speak in absolution, and only use parts or certain phrasing to strengthen your Opinion. There is no clear answer at this time no matter how much we say "incorrect", or add/take away different assumptions of another person. I got my answer from the T.O. Of the next adult run tourney ill be playing in. Warhost units can ride in any transports from warhost, regardless what book or "prior" faction they might of had. I assume most tourneys will aee it this way. If they dont, then i plan accordingly.
Which "absolution" are you speaking of, "not qualified or diminished in any way" (absolute) or a "formal release of guilt, obligations, or punishment" (absolution)?
There is a clear answer, it just isn't a good one that we like or makes any practical sense. The clear answer is that the units from this detachment have two Factions. Allies rules are triggered by UNITS having different Factions. Transports are different units from those that carry them. The Faction of Ynnari is not combined or replacing the other Faction, but added to the unit in addition to, leaving the units with two Factions, each of which is Battle Brothers to each other.
Is it stupid? You betcha, if you add in the FAQ making Battle Brothers unable to Embark in Deployment. Is it standard GW fare? You betcha, again, if you add in the FAQ making Battle Brothers unable to Embark in Deployment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: This logic only applies if you look at them at dual faction, which is seriously overthinking things. They are Ynnari. They are also Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins. They are not Ynnari-Eldar, Ynnari-Dark Eldar, Ynnari-Harlequinns. When I look at them in Terms of the Host Reborn, they are all just Ynnari and can get in any Ynnari tranports. If you put in a Eldar CAD with a Ynnari Reborn Warhost, then you cannot use their transports across because one is Ynnari and the other Eldar, even though the Ynnari share Eldar as a faction.
Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.
If GW intended that it be as Gelf is proposing, they did a piss-poor job (as usual) of properly presenting the point. Instead, they set it up so they are using two Factions instead of a modified faction.
I'm assuming that there is an intelligible point to making all war-host units share a faction type. To take the alternate stance is to essentially state the even though they share a faction type they might as well not because their interaction is the same without it.
At this point we have to make the best guess because there is no final ruling. This whole argument really just boils down to "what units can start in what transports". There is a clear and present attempt by GW to make all war host units get along. You can chose to ignore that but reason really isn't on your side. The rules aren't perfect but the alternate opinion (that they can't share transports) isn't grounded in anything other than assumption as well.
Xenomancers wrote: I'm assuming that there is an intelligible point to making all war-host units share a faction type. To take the alternate stance is to essentially state the even though they share a faction type they might as well not because their interaction is the same without it.
At this point we have to make the best guess because there is no final ruling. This whole argument really just boils down to "what units can start in what transports". There is a clear and present attempt by GW to make all war host units get along. You can chose to ignore that but reason really isn't on your side. The rules aren't perfect but the alternate opinion (that they can't share transports) isn't grounded in anything other than assumption as well.
How so? There's a FAQ statement that says Battle Brothers can't deploy in each others' transports. That's not a conjecture. If you say they're allowed because they share a faction, somebody could go back to this and point out that no, you can't. So, there's no proof that you are guaranteed to be able to deploy in a vehicle where you have a different faction (even if you share a second, common faction with it.) Being a permissive ruleset, you'd have to be able to show that this FAQ answer is negated for units with multiple factions as well as just saying that something with the same faction can be deployed (which had already been tried in this thread by twisting one FAQ answer to pass it off as something else). Basically they don't have rules out there to deal with multiple factions, which means there are no rules to give you permission to deploy in a vehicle with a different faction from you, there's just the rule saying that you can't deploy in a Battle Brother's unit. That's not grounding in assumption, that's grounding in what rules we have been given that might cover this..
Is this what they meant? I doubt it; I'm fairly confident that they meant for something sharing a faction to be able to be deployed in a transport that shares at least one faction with it at the start of the game; it doesn't make sense to keep the Craftworld Eldar/Harlequin/Dark Eldar factions otherwise when you gain the new faction. But, is this covered in the rules? Not at all. Just because people are arguing the RAW here though doesn't mean that's how they would play it.
I still have my doubts that it should be considered deploying in each other's transport when the unit and transport share a faction. "Each other's" implies to me two distinct and non-overlapping ownerships.
Unfortunately, a Ynarri and Craftworld unit and a Ynarri and Dark Eldar unit have distinct ownerships - Craftworld vs Dark Eldar, separate from the Ynarri faction, and GW has not seen fit to make a clear statement that it's okay to treat them as the same faction as long as there's one common faction. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that since it looks like RAI, but at this point it is still not RAW and therefore would need to be agreed to first when using a Ynarri faction in the game.
I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.
To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.
Fhionnuisce wrote: I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.
To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.
This is basically my opinion on it to. "Each other's" seems exclusive language, but we have a scenario where it's not just 'each other's' it's also both their own.
Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.
.
Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.
Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.
.
Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.
Except, in this analogy, the Ynnari is the American portion. It doesn't make the Irish Eldar suddenly British Dark Eldar.
Fhionnuisce wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.
To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.
Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.
Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.
Because the problem isn't that they have the same Factions, but rather that they also have two Factions that are Blood Brother to each other. Eldar to Eldar or Ynnari to Ynnari doesn't bring up Allies, but Eldar to Ynnari do bring up Allies.
Do remember that the Allies rules do not care what is the same, they care about what is different. The lease analogy is a poor one, as leases follow different rule considerations than Transports under the FAQ. The FAQ is only looking for those differences, not for similarities. The FAQ is also adding a rule to something that isn't in the rulebook, but that's a whole different discussion.
Fhionnuisce wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.
To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.
Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.
Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.
Because the problem isn't that they have the same Factions, but rather that they also have two Factions that are Blood Brother to each other. Eldar to Eldar or Ynnari to Ynnari doesn't bring up Allies, but Eldar to Ynnari do bring up Allies.
Do remember that the Allies rules do not care what is the same, they care about what is different. The lease analogy is a poor one, as leases follow different rule considerations than Transports under the FAQ. The FAQ is only looking for those differences, not for similarities. The FAQ is also adding a rule to something that isn't in the rulebook, but that's a whole different discussion.
I'm not questioning the BB portion. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin, and Ynnari are BB and the way it is written any combination of Ynnari units gives you a BB situation. Arguably even within a single unit since the two factions of the unit are BB with each other.
What I am asking is around the "each other's" part. The question asked in the FAQ was can BB deploy in each other's transports. The answer given was"No." with no explanation. Where from "no" do we reach the conclusion that a Ynnari unit and Ynnari transport would fit the each other's clause of the question?
The FAQ gave literally no guidance on the application of that answer but especially not in conjunction with multiple factions. Specifically it did not ban deploying in a transport with a BB faction unless they are deploying in "each other's" transports, and I don't see anything that says it would be treated as "each other's" instead of a transport of its own matching faction.
Or to phrase it differently, allies are driven by what is different but what says faction ownership of a transport is driven by what is different over the faction in common?
Fhionnuisce wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.
To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.
Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.
Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.
Because the problem isn't that they have the same Factions, but rather that they also have two Factions that are Blood Brother to each other. Eldar to Eldar or Ynnari to Ynnari doesn't bring up Allies, but Eldar to Ynnari do bring up Allies.
Do remember that the Allies rules do not care what is the same, they care about what is different. The lease analogy is a poor one, as leases follow different rule considerations than Transports under the FAQ. The FAQ is only looking for those differences, not for similarities. The FAQ is also adding a rule to something that isn't in the rulebook, but that's a whole different discussion.
GW ether
A Made a dual faction with the intent on having any like faction equating to being the same faction for all intents and purposes or
B Made a dual faction that does exact nothing.
The logic is clear - without purpose the dual faction rule in the reborn war-host would not exist.
The main probleme here is.... this is the first time an army is created using dual faction unit... until game workshop release an FAQ about their initial tought about that.... the best way to use Ynnari in my opinion is to forget the Ynnari-(older faction) an use them only as Ynnari... this rule is just more confusing then it need to be.
Fhionnuisce wrote:I'm not questioning the BB portion. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin, and Ynnari are BB and the way it is written any combination of Ynnari units gives you a BB situation. Arguably even within a single unit since the two factions of the unit are BB with each other.
What I am asking is around the "each other's" part. The question asked in the FAQ was can BB deploy in each other's transports. The answer given was"No." with no explanation. Where from "no" do we reach the conclusion that a Ynnari unit and Ynnari transport would fit the each other's clause of the question?
The FAQ gave literally no guidance on the application of that answer but especially not in conjunction with multiple factions. Specifically it did not ban deploying in a transport with a BB faction unless they are deploying in "each other's" transports, and I don't see anything that says it would be treated as "each other's" instead of a transport of its own matching faction.
They wouldn't because Ynnari and Ynnari would not trigger Allies rules. Where the Allies rules get triggered is that those Ynnari units are also Eldar or Dark Eldar units, and the Eldar Faction is Battle Brothers with the Ynnari.
So, you have James Van Der Beek standing at the Transport during Deployment checking Factions saying, "go" or "stop" depending on if the Factions are the same (How I Met Your Mother reference). Ynnari to Ynnari, good. Eldar to Eldar, good. Ynnari to Eldar, stop. Eldar to Ynnari, stop.
We are not told to ignore this relationship if one of the Factions match up, either in the FAQ or in the Ynnari rules. So, why do you think we can?
Fhionnuisce wrote:Or to phrase it differently, allies are driven by what is different but what says faction ownership of a transport is driven by what is different over the faction in common?
Faction ownership is driven by the datasheet. Transports are their own, separate units. Allies rules are driven by what is different between units. The FAQ is what denotes this restriction, though we are not given where in the rulebook this restriction is stated. Indeed, the rulebook states that Battle Brothers CAN Embark on Transports.
Xenomancers wrote:GW ether
A Made a dual faction with the intent on having any like faction equating to being the same faction for all intents and purposes or
B Made a dual faction that does exact nothing.
The logic is clear - without purpose the dual faction rule in the reborn war-host would not exist.
Actually logic is clear that the FAQ has nothing to support it, meaning that it is the whim of the FAQ writers.
Logic of RAW states that dual factions in a unit screw it over with Transports when you engage this portion of of the FAQ.
Logic of the RAI MAY support your A, but I would rather think that Logic of RAW would reject this FAQ answer so there is no problem at all to discuss regarding dual Faction units.
Fhionnuisce wrote: I'm not questioning the BB portion. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin, and Ynnari are BB and the way it is written any combination of Ynnari units gives you a BB situation. Arguably even within a single unit since the two factions of the unit are BB with each other.
What I am asking is around the "each other's" part. The question asked in the FAQ was can BB deploy in each other's transports. The answer given was"No." with no explanation. Where from "no" do we reach the conclusion that a Ynnari unit and Ynnari transport would fit the each other's clause of the question?
The part where it's not just Ynnari, since they are multiple factions. A Ynnari and Craftworld unit wants to deploy in a Ynnari and Dark Eldar transport. Yes, both are Ynnari, but we also have a faction Craftworld wanting to deploy in a faction Dark Eldar vehicle. According to the FAQ, since those factions are Battle Brothers, they wouldn't be allowed to deploy.
Fhionnuisce wrote: IThe FAQ gave literally no guidance on the application of that answer but especially not in conjunction with multiple factions. Specifically it did not ban deploying in a transport with a BB faction unless they are deploying in "each other's" transports, and I don't see anything that says it would be treated as "each other's" instead of a transport of its own matching faction.
Or to phrase it differently, allies are driven by what is different but what says faction ownership of a transport is driven by what is different over the faction in common?
That's correct that the FAQ gave no guidance on how to deal with multiple factions. That means that by RAW the FAQ question remains in force when dealing with multiple factions - it says you don't get to deploy in a Battle Brother's vehicle. Since there is also no quidance in the FAQ about treating multiple faction units as the same unit for alliance if they have one in common, we are forced by RAW to consider all the factions and see whether any of the factions are Battle Brothers. If they are Battle Brothers, then they can not deploy in the Battle Brother's vehicle. Is it what they intended? Probably not for this. (It does raise the question though about the Inquisitorial warband - if you have an Astropath and an Adeptus Sororitas model in it, does that mean the unit could start out deployed in a Valkyrie or in an Immolator at the start if they were also in the army?)
Even if they did intend you not to check that they're battle brothers if they share a faction, they have not established that as RAW, so you are still forced to check to see if they are battle brothers and by RAW would not allow them to board. Since it looks like they intended for Ynnari to not have any problems deploying in Ynarri vehicles (regardless of what other factions are involved), just check with your opponent or tournament organizer beforehand to make sure they agree. I'm sure most people would be reasonable on this.
Silentz wrote: Hard to understand how people are rules lawyering that two units that have the faction Ynnari cannot be the same faction. Pretending that 'Ynnari/Dark Eldar' is a specific faction is pure nonsense.
The book states that all units in the reborn warhost have the Ynnari faction, thus they are the same faction and the allies rule doesn't apply.
Taking them outside the detachment that grants that faction would remove their ability to share a ride.
This kind of thing will definitely be clarified if 40k adopts the keywords system that AOS uses.
Exactly this.
There is no such thing as Ynnari/Dark Eldar with a slash.
RAW says that every model in the detachment has Ynnari faction (on top of ...) and that means they can start aboard any transport and joined to any unit.
quickfuze wrote: Until a FAQ is presented for this mess of a book, the situation is no different than multi faction situations as before. When a unit has more than one faction, it still has both factions; RAW it may not embark during deployment. This came up before and hasn't changed with this book.
This interpretation is hotly disputed and has been heavily debated just recently on this very forum.
Some people interpret the FAQ as saying they must have ALL factions in common while some say that since they have A faction in common you don't even go to the Allies Matrix.
Doesn't the Space Marine codex have a similar issue explained in the chapter tactics? When it has two different chapter tactics in a unit, it counts as neither. Shouldn't that semi-apply here? Or at least a variant of it?
Silentz wrote: Hard to understand how people are rules lawyering that two units that have the faction Ynnari cannot be the same faction. Pretending that 'Ynnari/Dark Eldar' is a specific faction is pure nonsense.
The book states that all units in the reborn warhost have the Ynnari faction, thus they are the same faction and the allies rule doesn't apply.
Taking them outside the detachment that grants that faction would remove their ability to share a ride.
This kind of thing will definitely be clarified if 40k adopts the keywords system that AOS uses.
Exactly this.
There is no such thing as Ynnari/Dark Eldar with a slash.
RAW says that every model in the detachment has Ynnari faction (on top of ...) and that means they can start aboard any transport and joined to any unit.
Also, this is a YMDC thread.
Not entirely correct, depending on how much you consider an FAQRAW.
Just having one Faction the same as another means absolutely nothing so long as there is another Faction that is different also present in the same unit. The has been stated several times now:
The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.
Ynnari is different from Eldar just as much as Eldar is different from Dark Eldar. So, when one of those Transports sees a unit from their detachment, it sees a unit with two Factions, and two of them are different from its two. After all Ynnari does not match Eldar, and Eldar does not match Ynnari. The fact that Ynnari matches Ynnari means nothing as we are not supposed to consider this ramification at any point.
Now, if we only consider rules that are in the rulebook and the amendments and errata to such that have been provided, this is no problem. Battle Brothers can enter Transports with no restrictions.
It is only when one applies the FAQs which have zero written rule support (as opposed to clarifying a bad writing) that this actually becomes a problem.
Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.
.
Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.
Except, in this analogy, the Ynnari is the American portion. It doesn't make the Irish Eldar suddenly British Dark Eldar.
Your right, except that we are talking about "American" Transports that can only hold "Americans"
Silentz wrote: Hard to understand how people are rules lawyering that two units that have the faction Ynnari cannot be the same faction. Pretending that 'Ynnari/Dark Eldar' is a specific faction is pure nonsense.
The book states that all units in the reborn warhost have the Ynnari faction, thus they are the same faction and the allies rule doesn't apply.
Taking them outside the detachment that grants that faction would remove their ability to share a ride.
This kind of thing will definitely be clarified if 40k adopts the keywords system that AOS uses.
Exactly this.
There is no such thing as Ynnari/Dark Eldar with a slash.
RAW says that every model in the detachment has Ynnari faction (on top of ...) and that means they can start aboard any transport and joined to any unit.
Also, this is a YMDC thread.
Not entirely correct, depending on how much you consider an FAQRAW.
Just having one Faction the same as another means absolutely nothing so long as there is another Faction that is different also present in the same unit. The has been stated several times now:
The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.
Ynnari is different from Eldar just as much as Eldar is different from Dark Eldar. So, when one of those Transports sees a unit from their detachment, it sees a unit with two Factions, and two of them are different from its two. After all Ynnari does not match Eldar, and Eldar does not match Ynnari. The fact that Ynnari matches Ynnari means nothing as we are not supposed to consider this ramification at any point.
Now, if we only consider rules that are in the rulebook and the amendments and errata to such that have been provided, this is no problem. Battle Brothers can enter Transports with no restrictions.
It is only when one applies the FAQs which have zero written rule support (as opposed to clarifying a bad writing) that this actually becomes a problem.
Dude.. they are BOTH Ynnari.
That's it. Nothing to discuss, nothing to consider.
Whatever you or others may state on the topic is irrelevant: they are the exact same faction.
Unfortunately RAW doesn't back that statement up. They tell you to look at different factions. And, the obviously aren't the "exact same faction" when they have multiple factions and at least one differ. RAI, I agree with you and I think most people will aplay it that way. RAW though, not so much agreement with what you're saying.
If there's nothing to discuss and what others are saying is irrelevant, I'm sure you can provide the rules citation to prove that.
doctortom wrote: Unfortunately RAW doesn't back that statement up. They tell you to look at different factions. And, the obviously aren't the "exact same faction" when they have multiple factions and at least one differ. RAI, I agree with you and I think most people will aplay it that way. RAW though, not so much agreement with what you're saying.
If there's nothing to discuss and what others are saying is irrelevant, I'm sure you can provide the rules citation to prove that.
There is zero RAW support for the theory that they are not the exact same faction.
Here's what the BRB says:
The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.
Unit A is Ynneari&&Eldar
Unit B is Ynneari&&Harlequin
Unit A and B have the same faction.
It's only a matter of defining what it means to have a faction.
If you see it as a set bit, as it is intended in the case of multiple factions, then everything's fine.
More RAW to the rescue:
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes.
Battle Brothers cannot embark into each other's transports.
BUT
Wraithguard from Ynneari Detachment 1 can deploy in Raiders from Ynneari Detachment 2 and vice versa.
This tells us that Ynneari multi-faction units are NOT to be considered as Battle Brothers with regards to deployment within transport vehicles.
doctortom wrote: Unfortunately RAW doesn't back that statement up. They tell you to look at different factions. And, the obviously aren't the "exact same faction" when they have multiple factions and at least one differ. RAI, I agree with you and I think most people will aplay it that way. RAW though, not so much agreement with what you're saying.
If there's nothing to discuss and what others are saying is irrelevant, I'm sure you can provide the rules citation to prove that.
There is zero RAW support for the theory that they are not the exact same faction.
Here's what the BRB says:
The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.
Unit A is Ynneari&&Eldar
Unit B is Ynneari&&Harlequin
Unit A and B have the same faction.
It's only a matter of defining what it means to have a faction.
If you see it as a set bit, as it is intended in the case of multiple factions, then everything's fine.
More RAW to the rescue:
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes.
Battle Brothers cannot embark into each other's transports.
BUT
Wraithguard from Ynneari Detachment 1 can deploy in Raiders from Ynneari Detachment 2 and vice versa.
This tells us that Ynneari multi-faction units are NOT to be considered as Battle Brothers with regards to deployment within transport vehicles.
It just as much tells us that a unit with the Ynnari and Craftworld Eldar factions can not deploy on a transport with the Ynnari and Dark Eldar factions (and vice versa) because Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar are Battle Brothers. It doesn't say that being the same faction overrides also having different factions. That's all assumptions you''re reading into it. The RAW is that there's a rule prohibiting it that we are not told is overwritten. The FAQ question you are relying on is dealing with two detachments with the same faction, not one detachment with multiple factions, so it doesn't address handling multiple factions for a unit. Far from being told that Ynarri multi-faction units are NOT to be considered as Battle Brothers, we are left with conflicting rules that do NOT tell us that they are allowed to deploy inside others' transports. RAI, sure, I'll believe it, You don't get to use that RAI to try to state that RAW says what it doesn't, however.
Charistoph wrote: Just having one Faction the same as another means absolutely nothing so long as there is another Faction that is different also present in the same unit. The has been stated several times now:
The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.
Ynnari is different from Eldar just as much as Eldar is different from Dark Eldar. So, when one of those Transports sees a unit from their detachment, it sees a unit with two Factions, and two of them are different from its two. After all Ynnari does not match Eldar, and Eldar does not match Ynnari. The fact that Ynnari matches Ynnari means nothing as we are not supposed to consider this ramification at any point.
Now, if we only consider rules that are in the rulebook and the amendments and errata to such that have been provided, this is no problem. Battle Brothers can enter Transports with no restrictions.
It is only when one applies the FAQs which have zero written rule support (as opposed to clarifying a bad writing) that this actually becomes a problem.
Dude.. they are BOTH Ynnari.
That's it. Nothing to discuss, nothing to consider.
Whatever you or others may state on the topic is irrelevant: they are the exact same faction.
And this is incorrect and demonstrate you haven't read what you have written and what the rules have stated.
The Ynnari rules first state that the units within these detachments gain the Ynnari Faction in addition to their current Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequin Faction. So, they are not just Ynnari. If this is incorrect. please have someone backing up a quote or provide a screenshot which demonstrates this as innacurate.
Having the Same Factions along the same line is irrelevant if there is another Faction present. We are not told to not consider Allies if all Factions match, just if there are different Factions. Eldar and Ynnari are not the same Faction. If Ynnari is Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequin, please provide some manner of proof aside from your assertion that this is the case.
We are not told to consider two units who have the same group of multiple Factions as not Allies, so we cannot ignore the paragraph above, and Allies rules trigger. If the Ynnari rules state otherwise, please provide some manner of proof aside from your assertion that this is the case.
morgoth wrote:There is zero RAW support for the theory that they are not the exact same faction.
Actually, that's opposite, there is nothing to support the theory that two units that both share the same multiple Factions are to be considered the same Faction.
morgoth wrote:Here's what the BRB says:
The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.
Unit A is Ynneari&&Eldar
Unit B is Ynneari&&Harlequin
Unit A and B have the same faction.
And they also have different Factions. Since the Allies rules do not care about the same Factions, and only care different Factions as noted in your quote, the Allies rules are triggered.
morgoth wrote:It's only a matter of defining what it means to have a faction.
If you see it as a set bit, as it is intended in the case of multiple factions, then everything's fine.
More RAW to the rescue:
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes.
Battle Brothers cannot embark into each other's transports.
BUT
Wraithguard from Ynneari Detachment 1 can deploy in Raiders from Ynneari Detachment 2 and vice versa.
This tells us that Ynneari multi-faction units are NOT to be considered as Battle Brothers with regards to deployment within transport vehicles.
Now that is reading into the question and applying RAW to a House Rule (per GW's own presentation of such). Which one gains precedence? Battle Brothers still applies, and usually if you have one rule stating, "no", and one stating "yes", "no" wins unless the "yes" directly addresses the "no" condition.
The second question does not allow us to ignore the status of Battle Brothers, which now is implemented here.
The problem with your theory is that while you consider having one of two factions being different enough to say "these models are of a different faction", you do not recognize that the opposite statement is just as true: "these models are of the same faction", which means that if the allies matrix applies, the BRBFaQ applies just the same.
morgoth wrote: The problem with your theory is that while you consider having one of two factions being different enough to say "these models are of a different faction", you do not recognize that the opposite statement is just as true: "these models are of the same faction", which means that if the allies matrix applies, the BRBFaQ applies just the same.
His is not a theory. What you are not recognizing is that the permission you were quoting about the same faction in two different detachments being able to deploy in vehicles does not say anything about getting to ignore other factions in the units if there are multiple factions. Since there is no instruction to do that, you are forced to look at all the factions by RAW and have to follow the rules as to Battle Brothers if you find out that some of the factions aren't the same. But, you're right, the BrBFAQ applies - it's the FAQ question/answer about Battle Brothers that applies since we have no instructions about ignoring these factions if there is also the same faction present.
For what you say to be true, you have to supply a rules citation that tells you that if there is the same faction involved, you ignore all other factions that might be associated with the models involved. The FAQ question you cited does not address this, it's merely an unwarranted assumption on your part that we get to ignore the preceding FAQ question without actual rules that we may do so.
You are clinging to a rule in the BRB that was written when units only hade ONE (1) faction.
This is not the case now. GW will FAQ it, or not.
But I would like to ask you something:
Unlike most units in Warhammer 40,000, Yvraine, the Visarch and the Yncarne are new Army List Entries that can be included in any Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequins Detachment, regardless of Faction restrictions.
Can the Visarch, for example, in a Dark Eldar CAD, join a unit of wyches, and embark on a fast slot raider?
"Regardless of Faction restrictions"
Or "No, they are ynnari faction and battle brother, they cannot"?
Tyrpak wrote: You are clinging to a rule in the BRB that was written when units only hade ONE (1) faction.
This is not the case now. GW will FAQ it, or not.
But I would like to ask you something:
Unlike most units in Warhammer 40,000, Yvraine, the Visarch and the Yncarne are new Army List Entries that can be included in any Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequins Detachment, regardless of Faction restrictions.
Can the Visarch, for example, in a Dark Eldar CAD, join a unit of wyches, and embark on a fast slot raider?
"Regardless of Faction restrictions"
Or "No, they are ynnari faction and battle brother, they cannot"?
The Visarch can embark, but cannot start in embarked - he is Ynnari and the Raider is Dark Eldar. The Faction restrictions deals with when a detachment (such as a CAD) says "All units in this detachment must have the same Faction (or no Faction)."
Please forgive my ignorance but isn't everyone discussing the same points?
If you take a Ynnari Reborn Warhost Formation then you share the same faction and therefore can board each others transports which is countered by the FAQ states that if you have a different Faction you may not?
You could safely argue that if you took a Reborn Warhost with allied eldar/dark eldar/Harli detachment the allied units couldn't mount the transports from the Warhost on the basis that the vehicle in the Warhost also have the Ynnari faction which the allies do not, even if selected from the same codex and would share the same base faction as well as arguing that they can because they share the same faction.
There are persuasive arguments in both camps and I imagine until a FAQ is released people will just have to obtain TO's ruling/4+ dice roll it or simply come to an agreement with their opponent.
HIWPI would be argue that if you took a Reborn Warhost they share the same faction so they can use the same transport, for operation of the rule - I understand my opponent may not agree with my view but until we get a FAQ that is probably the best anyone can currently suggest.
While it is not compelling there is already a foundation for this view in the BRBFAQ under preferred enemy wherein it states you use all the factions of the unit, do they share the factions? If so then yes they can board.
morgoth wrote:The problem with your theory is that while you consider having one of two factions being different enough to say "these models are of a different faction", you do not recognize that the opposite statement is just as true: "these models are of the same faction", which means that if the allies matrix applies, the BRBFaQ applies just the same.
Actually I explained why this is the case and what you need to demonstrate otherwise. You have ignored this.
To repeat my points ala DoctorTom, highlighting the key points:
doctortom wrote:What you are not recognizing is that the permission you were quoting about the same faction in two different detachments being able to deploy in vehicles does not say anything about getting to ignore other factions in the units if there are multiple factions. Since there is no instruction to do that, you are forced to look at all the factions by RAW and have to follow the rules as to Battle Brothers if you find out that some of the factions aren't the same. But, you're right, the BrBFAQ applies - it's the FAQ question/answer about Battle Brothers that applies since we have no instructions about ignoring these factions if there is also the same faction present.
For what you say to be true, you have to supply a rules citation that tells you that if there is the same faction involved, you ignore all other factions that might be associated with the models involved. The FAQ question you cited does not address this, it's merely an unwarranted assumption on your part that we get to ignore the preceding FAQ question without actual rules that we may do so.
morgoth wrote: You chose to interpret the situation as having different factions.
That is only half of the truth.
Show me where having a same Faction allows me to ignore having a different Faction? This question has been asked several times and is necessary to support your position.
morgoth wrote: You chose to interpret the situation as having different factions.
That is only half of the truth.
Show me where having a same Faction allows me to ignore having a different Faction? This question has been asked several times and is necessary to support your position.
It's very very simple Charistoph.
There are two questions.
Question A: BRB Allied Matrix: Are the units from different factions?
Question B: BRBFAQ on starting in transports cross detachments: Are the units from the same faction?
In reality, in all cases, the factions are both the same and different between the unit.
You decided that for your interpretation of the RAW, what matters is that there are indeed factions which are different, so your answer to question A is yes.
Following the same logic, what matters for question B is that there are indeed factions which are the same, so your answer to question B must also be yes, lest you be incoherent with yourself.
By your own logic, it is possible for any unit having faction Ynneari in addition to its codex faction to get into an Ynneari faction transport as long as it's from another detachment.
By the other logic, it is always possible for any unit having faction Ynneari to get into any faction Ynneari transport from your army, whatever detachment it may be from.
morgoth wrote: You chose to interpret the situation as having different factions.
That is only half of the truth.
Show me where having a same Faction allows me to ignore having a different Faction? This question has been asked several times and is necessary to support your position.
It's very very simple Charistoph.
There are two questions.
Question A: BRB Allied Matrix: Are the units from different factions?
Question B: BRBFAQ on starting in transports cross detachments: Are the units from the same faction?
In reality, in all cases, the factions are both the same and different between the unit.
You decided that for your interpretation of the RAW, what matters is that there are indeed factions which are different, so your answer to question A is yes.
Following the same logic, what matters for question B is that there are indeed factions which are the same, so your answer to question B must also be yes, lest you be incoherent with yourself.
By your own logic, it is possible for any unit having faction Ynneari in addition to its codex faction to get into an Ynneari faction transport as long as it's from another detachment.
By the other logic, it is always possible for any unit having faction Ynneari to get into any faction Ynneari transport from your army, whatever detachment it may be from.
That is using YOUR logic, not mine. Do not attribute to me what you are doing. I have already answered this, and you have chosen not to address it, but rather continue ignoring it.
Battle Brothers say "no", and aside from ignoring the FAQ, nothing presented has gainsaid it. The fact that these units also share a Faction does not override this. If you have an actual rules quote that states that if units share a Faction, we get to ignore Ally relationships, please share it.
When a rule says "no", then it is "no" unless another rule directly addresses it. A Tactical Squad arriving by Drop Pod does not get to Charge that turn just because they Disembarked from an Assault Vehicle. This is because the rules against Charging after Deep Striking AND Arriving From Reserves are still in effect, and the Assault Vehicle rule does nothing to address either of these restrictions.
This FAQ you use to justify this does NOT address any Ally rules at all, therefore it has no power to address the other FAQ answer.
Charistoph is correct by the RAW. I think the RAI is pretty clear that they can start in each other's transports so that a Ynnari force is actually "one faction", but can also start in their shared faction's transports from other detachments. However, to do that, GW really needs an FAQ that provides errata to the main rulebook thusly:
Remove the line from the BRB stating: "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army." and replace with "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that do not share a Faction in the same army."
Such a change would allow Ynnari Eldar to start the game in a Ynnari Dark Eldar transport, would allow a Ynnari Eldar to start the game in an Eldar transport, and would disallow a Ynnari Eldar from starting the game in a Dark Eldar transport.
You have to understand something about the Brits. They expect a certain level of non density when they say/write things.
I'm sure Englishmen have no problem understanding that units that have the same faction - are in fact the same faction - regardless of any other factions they posses.
You also have to understand something about the FAQ. The ruling about battle brothers and transports was specifically directed at drop pods. Because when you start putting non space marine things in drop pods - really silly things start happening. Like Imperial knights being destroyed reliably with sisters of battle and IG command squads for less than the cost of a tactical squad in a drop pod with no special weapons. So they just put out a blanket ruling that would prevent it. It hardly affects anything else. Until now. The intent of the Ynnari faction is clear here though and the intent of the FAQ is also clear. Get your heads out of your butts people.
Xenomancers wrote: You have to understand something about the Brits. They expect a certain level of non density when they say/write things.
I'm sure Englishmen have no problem understanding that units that have the same faction - are in fact the same faction - regardless of any other factions they posses.
You also have to understand something about the FAQ. The ruling about battle brothers and transports was specifically directed at drop pods. Because when you start putting non space marine things in drop pods - really silly things start happening. Like Imperial knights being destroyed reliably with sisters of battle and IG command squads for less than the cost of a tactical squad in a drop pod with no special weapons. So they just put out a blanket ruling that would prevent it. It hardly affects anything else. Until now. The intent of the Ynnari faction is clear here though and the intent of the FAQ is also clear. Get your heads out of your butts people.
They've just skipped the part where they say if a unit has one faction in common with another, you don't look at the factions that are different. Of course, if that's how they're handling it, then it does raise some questions based on their other FAQ answers, especially the one that was originally in relation to Hatred but gives an answer saying units with models with multiple factions count as all those factions. Does that then mean that if you took the detachment with an Officer of the Fleet and a Valkyrie, the Officer of the Fleet could be attached to another unit and that unit would count as the same faction as the Valkyrie as being able to be deployed in it? (Substitute SMIC and Sister of Battle unit or other Army of the Imperium unit, and a Drop Pod taken as a fast attack choice instead of a Valkyrie).
Xenomancers wrote: You also have to understand something about the FAQ. The ruling about battle brothers and transports was specifically directed at drop pods. Because when you start putting non space marine things in drop pods - really silly things start happening. Like Imperial knights being destroyed reliably with sisters of battle and IG command squads for less than the cost of a tactical squad in a drop pod with no special weapons. So they just put out a blanket ruling that would prevent it. It hardly affects anything else. Until now. The intent of the Ynnari faction is clear here though and the intent of the FAQ is also clear. Get your heads out of your butts people.
That bit about Drop Pods is an assumption. NOTHING in the FAQ supports this. If this was specifically about Drop Pods, they would have specifically addressed Drop Pod's Transport Capacity, nor would it have affected Space Wolf ICs dropping in a Blood Angels Drop Pod.
And you are incorrect that it didn't hardly affect things before, it just didn't reach this level because no other army set themselves up to have two Factions at the same time AND DID NOT ADDRESS THIS.
Better to just ignore this FAQ answer which came out of nowhere and has zero support in the rulebook than trying to justify it anywhere else.
Yeah, it is funny that the BB transport FAQ seemed to purposefully deny cheesy Blood Angels Drop pod & Dark Eldar Taxi services, just for this new faction to come out and seem to override it anyway.
Construct a sentence wherein all words are length greater than 1.
"Hello, how are you?"
I used an "A." Does this violate the rule I set forth? No, because in this case, the important part to remember that while "A" is a word, in this context it is being applied as a letter.
Additionally, arguing that a unit with multiple factions faces restrictions because it has said factions, would mean having more than 1 faction would strictly be a negative, because when you ask the question "Is it X faction," according to this thread you would always answer no, even if one of the factions did indeed match.
Or other such silliness: Model is X and Y.
I have hatred Y.
Rules lawyer says, "Sorry, I am X, your hatred does not apply."
This discussion it's no different that arguing that Jump units or Jet pack units must behave as normal infantry under all circunstances because they are a subset of those while ignoring all their special rules because infantry do not have them.
There is perhaps a bit of unnecessary ego flying around this thread. The OP question is quite reasonable, and when it comes to RAW, we have a contradiction due to the FAQ.
Same faction can deploy in each other's transports, and battle brother factions cannot. In this case, BOTH rulings apply, so you simultaneously can and cannot deploy a Ynnari Dire Avenger unit in a Ynnari Venom.
Since this is YMDC though, we should be choosing one to go with. Looking at the gathering storm book, there are only 3 units in the whole of the Warhammer 40,000 game that have the Ynnari faction and no other faction - these are the three new models (1 MC and 2 HQ).
For these models, the allies matrix is easy to apply, and it explains how to ally Ynnari units with all the other factions on P114 of the gathering storm II book. This means if I take Yvraine (an HQ) in a Combined Arms Detachment of the Eldar (craftworlds) faction, she can be my HQ in that detachment, regardless of faction restrictions (this special rule seems to allow this). In that CAD, I have Dire Avengers and I have a Wave Serpent. Yvraine is BB with both of these units , as she is Ynnari faction and they are Eldar faction. She can't deploy in that wave serpent according to the FAQ ruling about BB transports.
In a Reborn Warhost detachment, all models/units have the Ynnari faction in addition to their own separate factions, creating this weird problem where we have two factions. However, we must be careful in assuming that each unit has two distinct factions and is therefore somehow treated as two separate units.
The Ynnari faction rule states that all Ynnari models gain the SfD rule, but lose Ancient Doom, Battle Focus and Power from Pain special rules if they had them. If I was to treat my Dire Avenger unit as having two distinct factions in this way, I could argue that the Ynnari faction part of them gains SfD, but the Ynnari faction part of them didn't have Ancient Doom or Battle Focus, so they don't lose it. Then I could say that the Eldar Faction part of them has Ancient Doom and Battle Focus, but that's OK because this is the Eldar faction part of them, so they are not required to gain or lose Ynnari rules. Of course I'm not suggesting to do this, but you see where I'm coming from regarding treating them as two factions for all purposes.
A slippery slope! I feel that the intention was to give them a combined faction to help them be treated as one combined faction (with all the benefits). Feel free to disagree with this version of "making da call", but throwing RAW at it is fairly pointless until GW come out with their intentions regarding this, as RAW simply points towards a contradiction. So that's HIWPI.
Construct a sentence wherein all words are length greater than 1.
"Hello, how are you?"
I used an "A." Does this violate the rule I set forth? No, because in this case, the important part to remember that while "A" is a word, in this context it is being applied as a letter.
Additionally, arguing that a unit with multiple factions faces restrictions because it has said factions, would mean having more than 1 faction would strictly be a negative, because when you ask the question "Is it X faction," according to this thread you would always answer no, even if one of the factions did indeed match.
Or other such silliness:
Model is X and Y.
I have hatred Y.
Rules lawyer says, "Sorry, I am X, your hatred does not apply."
Wow, you have that backwards. Rules lawyer says, "Your hatred Y applies because Y is there". The FAQ even states this.
Remember, the Allies rules do not care if you have the same Faction in the unit or not, they only care if there is a different Faction. This is something that is being completely forgotten by those who want to have no issues.
Lord Perversor wrote:This discussion it's no different that arguing that Jump units or Jet pack units must behave as normal infantry under all circunstances because they are a subset of those while ignoring all their special rules because infantry do not have them.
They can, because their rules say they can. But that also doesn't mean we get to ignore their Jump and Jet Pack when Embarking on a Vehicle, for example.
Warhanna wrote: There is perhaps a bit of unnecessary ego flying around this thread. The OP question is quite reasonable, and when it comes to RAW, we have a contradiction due to the FAQ.
Same faction can deploy in each other's transports, and battle brother factions cannot. In this case, BOTH rulings apply, so you simultaneously can and cannot deploy a Ynnari Dire Avenger unit in a Ynnari Venom.
Since this is YMDC though, we should be choosing one to go with. Looking at the gathering storm book, there are only 3 units in the whole of the Warhammer 40,000 game that have the Ynnari faction and no other faction - these are the three new models (1 MC and 2 HQ).
For these models, the allies matrix is easy to apply, and it explains how to ally Ynnari units with all the other factions on P114 of the gathering storm II book. This means if I take Yvraine (an HQ) in a Combined Arms Detachment of the Eldar (craftworlds) faction, she can be my HQ in that detachment, regardless of faction restrictions (this special rule seems to allow this). In that CAD, I have Dire Avengers and I have a Wave Serpent. Yvraine is BB with both of these units , as she is Ynnari faction and they are Eldar faction. She can't deploy in that wave serpent according to the FAQ ruling about BB transports.
In a Reborn Warhost detachment, all models/units have the Ynnari faction in addition to their own separate factions, creating this weird problem where we have two factions. However, we must be careful in assuming that each unit has two distinct factions and is therefore somehow treated as two separate units.
The Ynnari faction rule states that all Ynnari models gain the SfD rule, but lose Ancient Doom, Battle Focus and Power from Pain special rules if they had them. If I was to treat my Dire Avenger unit as having two distinct factions in this way, I could argue that the Ynnari faction part of them gains SfD, but the Ynnari faction part of them didn't have Ancient Doom or Battle Focus, so they don't lose it. Then I could say that the Eldar Faction part of them has Ancient Doom and Battle Focus, but that's OK because this is the Eldar faction part of them, so they are not required to gain or lose Ynnari rules. Of course I'm not suggesting to do this, but you see where I'm coming from regarding treating them as two factions for all purposes.
A slippery slope! I feel that the intention was to give them a combined faction to help them be treated as one combined faction (with all the benefits). Feel free to disagree with this version of "making da call", but throwing RAW at it is fairly pointless until GW come out with their intentions regarding this, as RAW simply points towards a contradiction. So that's HIWPI.
This makes sense, and I think most people will agree to go with the RAI of letting units deploy in vehicles in the detachment because of the common Ynnari faction. The argument that I see is that some people are arguing the RAW is the same, when - as you point out - there are contradictory rules listed sequentially in the FAQ, and we are not told that we can ignore the the one about Battle Brothers because there is a common faction. Without that we have RAW that can't definitively prove that they get to deploy in them because there is still that pesky FAQ question that says something to the contrary that makes permission to deploy unprovable. I would certainly hope that people would go by RAI here.
Of course, that RAI might be a slippery slope down the line for units with multiple factions in it. That's down the line, though.
I dont understand the confusion here, at least with the Ynnari codex. I thought it was painfully obvious that they were all of the same faction (ynnari) meaning you could use each others transports the same as you can attach an autarch to a squad of wyches.
supreme overlord wrote: I dont understand the confusion here, at least with the Ynnari codex. I thought it was painfully obvious that they were all of the same faction (ynnari) meaning you could use each others transports the same as you can attach an autarch to a squad of wyches.
For RAI, I agree it's painfully obvious. From a RAW standpoint, however, there's nothing to say that sharing the same faction means you ignore any other factions associated with the models, which means from a RAW standpoint there's still a rule that could prevent them from sharing. That RAW doesn't support it seems to be where there's confusion with some people. Since it's obvious from a RAI standpoint, however, I'm sure people will play it as RAI. There are ramifications, however since we have a different FAQ that says a unit made up of models with different factions count as all its factions. Does that mean that unit could be deployed in the transport belonging to any one of those factions?
Well, it might mean you get to have those drop pod armies with battle brothers in them then as long as an IC with the same faction as the drop pod is attached, or shenanigans like that.
Or, attach Master of the Fleet to a unit and let them ride in his Valkyrie. I don't think GW wanted these kinds of complications. That's the problem with inconsistent FAQs, though.
Here's hoping 8th edition says units can only ever be embarked in tranports with the same faction.
That would solve Drop Pod sharing and make Ynnari function as they should.
Q: How do the models/units with mixed Factions work? Can
units that share at least one Faction start the game embarked on
a Transport?
A: Ynnari models have two Factions (except in the
case of Yvraine, the Visarch and the Yncarne, who only
have one). You must consider both of their Factions to
determine their levels of Alliance and which Transports
they may be embarked on at the beginning of the
game. For example, an Eldar/Ynnari unit shares the
same Factions as other Eldar/Ynnari, but is of different
Factions from (though Battle Brothers with) Dark
Eldar/Ynnari and Harlequins/Ynnari. An Eldar/Ynnari
unit can therefore only begin the game embarked if it is
embarked on an Eldar/Ynnari vehicle.
Note that Yvraine and the Visarch can begin the game
embarked on Ynnari vehicles (regardless of those
vehicles’ other Factions).
Earth127 wrote:on the whole I like this FAQ it does what is supposed to do: clean up the (regrettably huge) mess.
A mess that is only a problem because of another FAQ. If we only go by the written rules of the rulebook (and its attendant amendments and errata), there was no issue to begin with. Nothing in Battle Brothers or Deployment causes this restriction.
Silentz wrote:Haha I was totally and utterly wrong. Apologies to those in this thread who I disagreed with.
It even uses the "Ynnari/Dark Eldar" notation I said was clearly not right.
Oops.
Glad an FAQ has been sorted quickly.
It's not your fault that GW couldn't write a rule that interacts with another with any proper clarity. The initial rules presented do not describe a Ynnari/Eldar relationship, but a Ynnari & Eldar relationship. We can only go by what we are given. GW's worse than a crazy girlfriend at times, always thinking that you can read their minds and go against what they actually say.
I am truely shocked by this ruling. Equally shocked by the ruling that units can soulburst off their own trasnport if it is wrecked but not if it's exploded. They went the other way to what I was thinking on both of those issues.
I am truely shocked by this ruling. Equally shocked by the ruling that units can soulburst off their own trasnport if it is wrecked but not if it's exploded. They went the other way to what I was thinking on both of those issues.
I'm truly shocked, shocked I tell you that there's gambling going on in this establishment ("Your winnings, sir" "Thank you")
Seriously though, I'm not shocked at all by the ruling; it's really the only way they could go with it without opening up all sorts of other cans of worms that could come with multiple faction units. It does raise a question though about Inquisitorial Warbands. The Acolytes can take a dedicated transport, but the other models all start with them as one unit. If you include other models such as some of the Adeptus Sororitas models, would the transport count as Inq/AS when the Acolytes take it, or just as an Inquisition transport. If the latter, then the mega-unit wouldn't be able to embark in the transport the acolyte part of the unit bought (so I suspect they'll go with the transport counting as all the factions in the mega unit - still, might be something else for them to FAQ).
Only 1 question missing, that came up this weekend:
A Land raider of my opponent kills a unit with 1 weapon, and wants to shoot with PotMS on another, but said unit charges it with soulburst,
is the vehicle now locked in close combat, until the Assault phase, or not, because vehicles don't stay locked?
I say it stays locked until the Combat Resolution of the Assault Phase.
But in this game we had to 4+ it, because even the referrees couldn't decide it.
supreme overlord wrote: according to the most recent FAQ, no, we cannot.... making this new codex all but unusable for me now. great.
I don't see where in the latest FAQ there's something that would prevent the Land Raider from using PotMS, but I may be missing it. Do you have a rules quote from the FAQ?
supreme overlord wrote: according to the most recent FAQ, no, we cannot.... making this new codex all but unusable for me now. great.
I don't see where in the latest FAQ there's something that would prevent the Land Raider from using PotMS, but I may be missing it. Do you have a rules quote from the FAQ?
I believe he's talking about the subject of the thread, not the recent sidetrack.
Tyrpak wrote: ... is the vehicle now locked in close combat, until the Assault phase, or not, because vehicles don't stay locked?
Vehicles are never locked in close combat, unless they're a Walker or barring other special rules (see ''Assault Results', pg. 78 bold text).
That's the question.
What you are too quoting is Assault Results!
But the question is: I charged the land raider. In the shooting phase. As if it were my Charge sub-phase.
So until the end of Assault Phase, I'm in close combat with it. Right?
Or wrong?
Tyrpak wrote: ... is the vehicle now locked in close combat, until the Assault phase, or not, because vehicles don't stay locked?
Vehicles are never locked in close combat, unless they're a Walker or barring other special rules (see ''Assault Results', pg. 78 bold text).
That's the question.
What you are too quoting is Assault Results!
But the question is: I charged the land raider. In the shooting phase. As if it were my Charge sub-phase.
So until the end of Assault Phase, I'm in close combat with it. Right?
Or wrong?
It doesn't matter where its at. The answer is unambiguous. A vehicle is NEVER locked in close combat unless it's a Walker.
Tyrpak wrote: ... is the vehicle now locked in close combat, until the Assault phase, or not, because vehicles don't stay locked?
Vehicles are never locked in close combat, unless they're a Walker or barring other special rules (see ''Assault Results', pg. 78 bold text).
That's the question.
What you are too quoting is Assault Results!
But the question is: I charged the land raider. In the shooting phase. As if it were my Charge sub-phase.
So until the end of Assault Phase, I'm in close combat with it. Right?
Or wrong?
Although in the Assault results section, the rule is stated to be a general rule that applies all the time. It says it can't be locked in combat even though the vehicle can be assaulted. If they had meant for it to be locked in combat until the end of the fight phase they would have said that at that point the vehicle ceases being locked in combat. There is a vast difference between "cannot be locked in Combat" and "ceases to be locked in Combat" - the rule states the former, not the latter.
You are never locked in combat, so you can never hit the vehicle, because you cannot be in base to base with it, because you have to keep 1" separation.
After I charged the Land Raider, and got in base contact with it, when did it cease, and when did my unit got put back 1"?
What happens to the successful charge, can I hit the vehicle in my opponents Assault Phase, or do I need to charge it again in my own turn?
And by your rules interpretation: can I hit it, even in my own turn, because I'm not even locked in close combat with it.
You are never locked in combat, so you can never hit the vehicle, because you cannot be in base to base with it, because you have to keep 1" separation.
After I charged the Land Raider, and got in base contact with it, when did it cease, and when did my unit got put back 1"?
What happens to the successful charge, can I hit the vehicle in my opponents Assault Phase, or do I need to charge it again in my own turn?
And by your rules interpretation: can I hit it, even in my own turn, because I'm not even locked in close combat with it.
You are really insistant on over complicating this.
You can assault it, charge it, hammer of wrath it, melee it.
You can't lock it in combat.
The only question here is who gets precedence - shooting or hitting?
You are never locked in combat, so you can never hit the vehicle, because you cannot be in base to base with it, because you have to keep 1" separation.
After I charged the Land Raider, and got in base contact with it, when did it cease, and when did my unit got put back 1"?
What happens to the successful charge, can I hit the vehicle in my opponents Assault Phase, or do I need to charge it again in my own turn?
And by your rules interpretation: can I hit it, even in my own turn, because I'm not even locked in close combat with it.
Except the actual rules say otherwise. Please read 'Vehicles in the Assault Phase' on page 78 of the main rulebook.
"
Whilst vehicles can be assaulted, they do not Pile In and cannot be locked in combat.
Enemy models that are in base contact with a vehicle (not including Walkers or Chariots) are not locked in combat and can therefore be shot during the Shooting phase.
Units that still have models in base contact with a vehicle during its Assault phase may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat (including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault)."
I feel this says that both the unit charging and the vehicle are not locked in combat, especially as it says "enemy models" above. The charging unit can be shot at by other units (including the vehicle), and can shoot at other units (including the vehicle) - even though it is in base contact with a model (the vehicle). This is an exception to the normal rules.
Tsilber wrote: And a Gold Star for whoever was first person to predict, duel/sub factions in a detachment with its own "Faction".
While I can see the RAI behind it, it was still a mistaken perspective based on the information at hand, and it should have been written with that intention in the first place.
Tsilber wrote: And a Gold Star for whoever was first person to predict, duel/sub factions in a detachment with its own "Faction".
While I can see the RAI behind it, it was still a mistaken perspective based on the information at hand, and it should have been written with that intention in the first place.
I dont think its going to matter much with the new edition, and they put the FAQ out, as they know it will be used at some big tourneys coming up, that they themselves will have a presence at. So an FAQ to please the mass's and us plebs.
Tsilber wrote: And a Gold Star for whoever was first person to predict, duel/sub factions in a detachment with its own "Faction".
While I can see the RAI behind it, it was still a mistaken perspective based on the information at hand, and it should have been written with that intention in the first place.
I dont think its going to matter much with the new edition, and they put the FAQ out, as they know it will be used at some big tourneys coming up, that they themselves will have a presence at. So an FAQ to please the mass's and us plebs.
A lot of the big tourneys don't use the GWFAQ, they use their own, whether it be ITC, ETC, or a variant thereof. So whatever GW chooses to do to on their own will mean little. The "presence" of GW tend to be more as players or as booth presences at the conventions the tournaments, at best.
but if you don't, then you can ally haemoncs. makes sense.
Made a dual faction with the intent on having any like faction equating to being the same faction for all intents and purposes or
