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SO I disagree with the Assertion that when they speak of factions, that everything now has 2, such as Yn/Eldar, Yn/Dark Eldar

If we went off the wording of this methodology of thinking, Under the forces of Ynnari rules in the new rule book, the special rules entry would not have any merit and not be needed.

It says Units with the Ynnari Faction use the following special rules in addition to the those presented in their codex, but lose ancient doom, battle focus, and power from pain.

This entry does not say "Units with the Ynnari/dark eldar faction..." Or , "Units with the Ynnari/Eldar faction..."

Effectively no units would gain the Strength of death rule, no units would be able to use artifacts, and no units would lose power from pain, ancient doom, or battle focus.

Warhanna wrote:I would say that if you have a reborn warhost with a unit of dire avengers in it, and a Combined Arms Detachment formed of Dark Eldar with a Raider in it, then they are battle brothers as both ynarri and eldar are BB with dark eldar, and the dire avengers couldn't deploy in it.

If you had the same reborn warhost but had a CAD of eldar instead, and that CAD had a wave serpent in it, the dire avengers could deploy in it as a unit can deploy in transports of the same faction, even if it is in a different detachment.

Within the reborn warhost, I'd say any unit within the detachment could deploy in any (non dedicated) transport within the same reborn war host (or ynarri formation) as they also share the same faction, regardless of the fact they also have second factions. That's HIWPI and I understand that there isn't enough RAW to show this 100%.

Allies Rules are not ignored if you have the same Faction. If you can prove they are completely ignored if the units share one Faction, please provide them.

They are triggered "between units that have different Factions in the same army." Ynnari is different from Eldar, therefore Allie rules are triggered. It really is that simple.

The fact that the Dire Avengers have Faction Eldar is immaterial, the issue is that they ALSO have the Ynnari Faction, which is a different, Battle Brother Faction to the Eldar.

Tsilber wrote:SO I disagree with the Assertion that when they speak of factions, that everything now has 2, such as Yn/Eldar, Yn/Dark Eldar

If we went off the wording of this methodology of thinking, Under the forces of Ynnari rules in the new rule book, the special rules entry would not have any merit and not be needed.

It says Units with the Ynnari Faction use the following special rules in addition to the those presented in their codex, but lose ancient doom, battle focus, and power from pain.

This entry does not say "Units with the Ynnari/dark eldar faction..." Or , "Units with the Ynnari/Eldar faction..."

Effectively no units would gain the Strength of death rule, no units would be able to use artifacts, and no units would lose power from pain, ancient doom, or battle focus.

Incorrect. Those rules only look to see if you have the Faction, they do not care if you have another Faction. The Allies rules check to see if you have a different Faction.

Much like the Character rules do not check to see if the model is Infantry, Beast, or Monstrous Creature, they still take affect, however the Look Out Sir rule checks to see if the model is a Character.

So, got the rulebook in front of me now, and it says that the allies chart occurs when you have "units that have different Factions in the same army". By this wording, there is a simple question; "do they have a different Faction?". The answer, unfortunately, is yes. As such, by the RAW. a Yn/Eldar could not start in a Yn/Dark Eldar transport. They specifically are both Ynnari, Eldar, and Dark Eldar.

That said, I strongly feel that the idea is that they ARE the same Faction, and not different factions from each other. I believe that is the intent. As such, I think the RAI should be that they can start in each other's transports in a Ynnari force, and that an FAQ should state as such. The only reason they probably had them gain the Ynnari faction in addition to their current one is so that if someone has something that works against Eldar, but not against Dark Eldar, or the other way around, it still works against those units even though they're in a different Faction's force.

Guys... you are all overthinking that rules... Its only ment for allied detachment

If you build a Ynnari CAD They are primarly Ynnari this mean they have acces to all the stuff Ynnari share (special rules, vehicule etc....)

They Also keep their former faction ( why?? ) cause their's to many codex and supplement filled with single faction rules, artifact, weapon... etc... having to remake all those whould have made Fracture of biel-tan book like 1300 page so they deceided to say instead of making one HUGE bible... just give them the ynnari faction + (ref. to previous faction for arsenal, rules, artefact... etc).

BUT!!!!

If you take a Allied detachment let say... Eldar in your Ynnari CAD... this Eldar allied detachment got the battlebrother tag and dont have acces to Ynnari faction stuff.

Big-E wrote:
Guys... you are all overthinking that rules... Its only ment for allied detachment

Incorrect. The rules for Allies never state "detachment" once. It's for units between different Factions. The Allied Detachment alone has not been in consideration for this since 7th Edition launched, and even a little before with the early Formations. It affects how close some units can be deployed to each other. It also involves Transports during Deployment, for some inexplicable, unwritten reason.

Big-E wrote:
If you build a Ynnari CAD They are primarly Ynnari this mean they have acces to all the stuff Ynnari share (special rules, vehicule etc....)

They Also keep their former faction ( why?? ) cause their's to many codex and supplement filled with single faction rules, artifact, weapon... etc... having to remake all those whould have made Fracture of biel-tan book like 1300 page so they deceided to say instead of making one HUGE bible... just give them the ynnari faction + (ref. to previous faction for arsenal, rules, artefact... etc).

Actually, there is no reason to keep their former Faction. Indeed, it would be better off the rule that stated that it replaced their Eldar/Dark Eldar Faction with Ynnari.

Big-E wrote:
BUT!!!!

If you take a Allied detachment let say... Eldar in your Ynnari CAD... this Eldar allied detachment got the battlebrother tag and dont have acces to Ynnari faction stuff.

Actually, you can't take an Allied Detachment of Craftworld with an Ynnari Primary CAD that has any Eldar in it. The Ynnari CAD would have both Ynnari and Eldar units, and the Allied Detachment's Restrictions state that, "All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction)." Again, you using 6th Edition standards for a 7th Edition book design.

 Charistoph wrote:
ually, there is no reason to keep their former Faction. Indeed, it would be better off the rule that stated that it replaced their Eldar/Dark Eldar Faction with Ynnari.

Actually there is, if their intention was that if you have one faction in common between units you disregard the factions that aren't in common. It would allow a unit with Ynarri and a second faction to deploy in a transport of another detachment that was only that second faction (for example, an Ynarri Autarch could join a Craftworld Eldar unit from another detachment in their transport if that was their thinking. That would be my thought as to why they keep the old detachmetn Of course, they have not bothered to come out and actually state that iif something has multiple factions, if one faction is the same as a different unit you don't worry about the other faction(s) listed. It would be nice if they could put something out to make that clear, maybe if they put out a FAQ for this book.

As you point out, though, keeping the second faction means not taking an Allied Detachment of that faction, but you can still take any other type of detachment for that faction. (And, Big-E, Charistoph is right about the Allies Matrix being for units with different factions in general, not just for Allied Detachments)

You cant speak in absolution, and only use parts or certain phrasing to strengthen your Opinion. There is no clear answer at this time no matter how much we say "incorrect", or add/take away different assumptions of another person. I got my answer from the T.O. Of the next adult run tourney ill be playing in. Warhost units can ride in any transports from warhost, regardless what book or "prior" faction they might of had. I assume most tourneys will aee it this way. If they dont, then i plan accordingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Allow me to add, i thank everyone for their feedback and opinions on the YMTC, question. Its opinion base of the rules written, and i appreciate the opinions shared.

 Galef wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

It is dumb, but thems the rules

-

Incorrect .

I assume you are referring to this?
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.

This is not a rule. it is guidance from an FAQ. It is intended to solve rules disputes.

It is not intended to be paraded about as a reason to cause rules disputes, when the rules are very clear.

Units which are the same faction, do not have to apply the allies matrix. They have no problem getting in their transports

.

Thank you for proving my point that people are treating all Ynnari are the same faction with no consideration to that fact that some are different factions.
It is clear via the FAQ (which I consider to be rules, as should you) the units that as BBs cannot deploy in each other's transport. You quoted that yourself

Ynnari/Eldar Banshees are BBs with Ynnari/Dark Eldar Raider as they have different faction. One has Eldar, the other has Dark Eldar.
It does not matter that they both also have Ynnari, as the allies matrix is applied to units with different factions, which these 2 units have. Thus they consider each other BBs

-

This logic only applies if you look at them at dual faction, which is seriously overthinking things. They are Ynnari. They are also Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins. They are not Ynnari-Eldar, Ynnari-Dark Eldar, Ynnari-Harlequinns. When I look at them in Terms of the Host Reborn, they are all just Ynnari and can get in any Ynnari tranports. If you put in a Eldar CAD with a Ynnari Reborn Warhost, then you cannot use their transports across because one is Ynnari and the other Eldar, even though the Ynnari share Eldar as a faction.

Tsilber wrote:
You cant speak in absolution, and only use parts or certain phrasing to strengthen your Opinion. There is no clear answer at this time no matter how much we say "incorrect", or add/take away different assumptions of another person. I got my answer from the T.O. Of the next adult run tourney ill be playing in. Warhost units can ride in any transports from warhost, regardless what book or "prior" faction they might of had. I assume most tourneys will aee it this way. If they dont, then i plan accordingly.

Which "absolution" are you speaking of, "not qualified or diminished in any way" (absolute) or a "formal release of guilt, obligations, or punishment" (absolution)?

There is a clear answer, it just isn't a good one that we like or makes any practical sense. The clear answer is that the units from this detachment have two Factions. Allies rules are triggered by UNITS having different Factions. Transports are different units from those that carry them. The Faction of Ynnari is not combined or replacing the other Faction, but added to the unit in addition to, leaving the units with two Factions, each of which is Battle Brothers to each other.

Is it stupid? You betcha, if you add in the FAQ making Battle Brothers unable to Embark in Deployment. Is it standard GW fare? You betcha, again, if you add in the FAQ making Battle Brothers unable to Embark in Deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
This logic only applies if you look at them at dual faction, which is seriously overthinking things. They are Ynnari. They are also Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins. They are not Ynnari-Eldar, Ynnari-Dark Eldar, Ynnari-Harlequinns. When I look at them in Terms of the Host Reborn, they are all just Ynnari and can get in any Ynnari tranports. If you put in a Eldar CAD with a Ynnari Reborn Warhost, then you cannot use their transports across because one is Ynnari and the other Eldar, even though the Ynnari share Eldar as a faction.

Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.

If GW intended that it be as Gelf is proposing, they did a piss-poor job (as usual) of properly presenting the point. Instead, they set it up so they are using two Factions instead of a modified faction.

I'm assuming that there is an intelligible point to making all war-host units share a faction type. To take the alternate stance is to essentially state the even though they share a faction type they might as well not because their interaction is the same without it.

At this point we have to make the best guess because there is no final ruling. This whole argument really just boils down to "what units can start in what transports". There is a clear and present attempt by GW to make all war host units get along. You can chose to ignore that but reason really isn't on your side. The rules aren't perfect but the alternate opinion (that they can't share transports) isn't grounded in anything other than assumption as well.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm assuming that there is an intelligible point to making all war-host units share a faction type. To take the alternate stance is to essentially state the even though they share a faction type they might as well not because their interaction is the same without it.

At this point we have to make the best guess because there is no final ruling. This whole argument really just boils down to "what units can start in what transports". There is a clear and present attempt by GW to make all war host units get along. You can chose to ignore that but reason really isn't on your side. The rules aren't perfect but the alternate opinion (that they can't share transports) isn't grounded in anything other than assumption as well.

How so? There's a FAQ statement that says Battle Brothers can't deploy in each others' transports. That's not a conjecture. If you say they're allowed because they share a faction, somebody could go back to this and point out that no, you can't. So, there's no proof that you are guaranteed to be able to deploy in a vehicle where you have a different faction (even if you share a second, common faction with it.) Being a permissive ruleset, you'd have to be able to show that this FAQ answer is negated for units with multiple factions as well as just saying that something with the same faction can be deployed (which had already been tried in this thread by twisting one FAQ answer to pass it off as something else). Basically they don't have rules out there to deal with multiple factions, which means there are no rules to give you permission to deploy in a vehicle with a different faction from you, there's just the rule saying that you can't deploy in a Battle Brother's unit. That's not grounding in assumption, that's grounding in what rules we have been given that might cover this..

Is this what they meant? I doubt it; I'm fairly confident that they meant for something sharing a faction to be able to be deployed in a transport that shares at least one faction with it at the start of the game; it doesn't make sense to keep the Craftworld Eldar/Harlequin/Dark Eldar factions otherwise when you gain the new faction. But, is this covered in the rules? Not at all. Just because people are arguing the RAW here though doesn't mean that's how they would play it.

I still have my doubts that it should be considered deploying in each other's transport when the unit and transport share a faction. "Each other's" implies to me two distinct and non-overlapping ownerships.

Unfortunately, a Ynarri and Craftworld unit and a Ynarri and Dark Eldar unit have distinct ownerships - Craftworld vs Dark Eldar, separate from the Ynarri faction, and GW has not seen fit to make a clear statement that it's okay to treat them as the same faction as long as there's one common faction. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that since it looks like RAI, but at this point it is still not RAW and therefore would need to be agreed to first when using a Ynarri faction in the game.

I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.

To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.

To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.

This is basically my opinion on it to. "Each other's" seems exclusive language, but we have a scenario where it's not just 'each other's' it's also both their own.

 Charistoph wrote:

Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.

.

Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.

.

Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.

Except, in this analogy, the Ynnari is the American portion. It doesn't make the Irish Eldar suddenly British Dark Eldar.

Fhionnuisce wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.

To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.

Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.

Because the problem isn't that they have the same Factions, but rather that they also have two Factions that are Blood Brother to each other. Eldar to Eldar or Ynnari to Ynnari doesn't bring up Allies, but Eldar to Ynnari do bring up Allies.

Do remember that the Allies rules do not care what is the same, they care about what is different. The lease analogy is a poor one, as leases follow different rule considerations than Transports under the FAQ. The FAQ is only looking for those differences, not for similarities. The FAQ is also adding a rule to something that isn't in the rulebook, but that's a whole different discussion.

 Charistoph wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.

To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.

Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.

Because the problem isn't that they have the same Factions, but rather that they also have two Factions that are Blood Brother to each other. Eldar to Eldar or Ynnari to Ynnari doesn't bring up Allies, but Eldar to Ynnari do bring up Allies.

Do remember that the Allies rules do not care what is the same, they care about what is different. The lease analogy is a poor one, as leases follow different rule considerations than Transports under the FAQ. The FAQ is only looking for those differences, not for similarities. The FAQ is also adding a rule to something that isn't in the rulebook, but that's a whole different discussion.

I'm not questioning the BB portion. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin, and Ynnari are BB and the way it is written any combination of Ynnari units gives you a BB situation. Arguably even within a single unit since the two factions of the unit are BB with each other.

What I am asking is around the "each other's" part. The question asked in the FAQ was can BB deploy in each other's transports. The answer given was"No." with no explanation. Where from "no" do we reach the conclusion that a Ynnari unit and Ynnari transport would fit the each other's clause of the question?

The FAQ gave literally no guidance on the application of that answer but especially not in conjunction with multiple factions. Specifically it did not ban deploying in a transport with a BB faction unless they are deploying in "each other's" transports, and I don't see anything that says it would be treated as "each other's" instead of a transport of its own matching faction.

Or to phrase it differently, allies are driven by what is different but what says faction ownership of a transport is driven by what is different over the faction in common?

 Charistoph wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing what about can't deploy in each other's transports is leading people to separate out and ignore the fact that is their own transport by virtue of being a Ynnari unit and a Ynnari transport.

To me it doesn't become each other's transport until they are trying to use something to which they have no claim. Much the same way you and a roommate wouldn't consider it sleeping in each other's apartments if you are both on the lease. You are on the lease, you are paying rent, it's yours regardless of who else may also be able to claim that.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.

Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.

Because the problem isn't that they have the same Factions, but rather that they also have two Factions that are Blood Brother to each other. Eldar to Eldar or Ynnari to Ynnari doesn't bring up Allies, but Eldar to Ynnari do bring up Allies.

Do remember that the Allies rules do not care what is the same, they care about what is different. The lease analogy is a poor one, as leases follow different rule considerations than Transports under the FAQ. The FAQ is only looking for those differences, not for similarities. The FAQ is also adding a rule to something that isn't in the rulebook, but that's a whole different discussion.

GW ether
A Made a dual faction with the intent on having any like faction equating to being the same faction for all intents and purposes or
B Made a dual faction that does exact nothing.

The logic is clear - without purpose the dual faction rule in the reborn war-host would not exist.

The main probleme here is.... this is the first time an army is created using dual faction unit... until game workshop release an FAQ about their initial tought about that.... the best way to use Ynnari in my opinion is to forget the Ynnari-(older faction) an use them only as Ynnari... this rule is just more confusing then it need to be.

Fhionnuisce wrote:I'm not questioning the BB portion. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin, and Ynnari are BB and the way it is written any combination of Ynnari units gives you a BB situation. Arguably even within a single unit since the two factions of the unit are BB with each other.

What I am asking is around the "each other's" part. The question asked in the FAQ was can BB deploy in each other's transports. The answer given was"No." with no explanation. Where from "no" do we reach the conclusion that a Ynnari unit and Ynnari transport would fit the each other's clause of the question?

The FAQ gave literally no guidance on the application of that answer but especially not in conjunction with multiple factions. Specifically it did not ban deploying in a transport with a BB faction unless they are deploying in "each other's" transports, and I don't see anything that says it would be treated as "each other's" instead of a transport of its own matching faction.

They wouldn't because Ynnari and Ynnari would not trigger Allies rules. Where the Allies rules get triggered is that those Ynnari units are also Eldar or Dark Eldar units, and the Eldar Faction is Battle Brothers with the Ynnari.

So, you have James Van Der Beek standing at the Transport during Deployment checking Factions saying, "go" or "stop" depending on if the Factions are the same (How I Met Your Mother reference). Ynnari to Ynnari, good. Eldar to Eldar, good. Ynnari to Eldar, stop. Eldar to Ynnari, stop.

We are not told to ignore this relationship if one of the Factions match up, either in the FAQ or in the Ynnari rules. So, why do you think we can?

Fhionnuisce wrote:Or to phrase it differently, allies are driven by what is different but what says faction ownership of a transport is driven by what is different over the faction in common?

Faction ownership is driven by the datasheet. Transports are their own, separate units. Allies rules are driven by what is different between units. The FAQ is what denotes this restriction, though we are not given where in the rulebook this restriction is stated. Indeed, the rulebook states that Battle Brothers CAN Embark on Transports.

Xenomancers wrote:GW ether
A Made a dual faction with the intent on having any like faction equating to being the same faction for all intents and purposes or
B Made a dual faction that does exact nothing.

The logic is clear - without purpose the dual faction rule in the reborn war-host would not exist.

Actually logic is clear that the FAQ has nothing to support it, meaning that it is the whim of the FAQ writers.

Logic of RAW states that dual factions in a unit screw it over with Transports when you engage this portion of of the FAQ.

Logic of the RAI MAY support your A, but I would rather think that Logic of RAW would reject this FAQ answer so there is no problem at all to discuss regarding dual Faction units.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
I'm not questioning the BB portion. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin, and Ynnari are BB and the way it is written any combination of Ynnari units gives you a BB situation. Arguably even within a single unit since the two factions of the unit are BB with each other.

What I am asking is around the "each other's" part. The question asked in the FAQ was can BB deploy in each other's transports. The answer given was"No." with no explanation. Where from "no" do we reach the conclusion that a Ynnari unit and Ynnari transport would fit the each other's clause of the question?

The part where it's not just Ynnari, since they are multiple factions. A Ynnari and Craftworld unit wants to deploy in a Ynnari and Dark Eldar transport. Yes, both are Ynnari, but we also have a faction Craftworld wanting to deploy in a faction Dark Eldar vehicle. According to the FAQ, since those factions are Battle Brothers, they wouldn't be allowed to deploy.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
IThe FAQ gave literally no guidance on the application of that answer but especially not in conjunction with multiple factions. Specifically it did not ban deploying in a transport with a BB faction unless they are deploying in "each other's" transports, and I don't see anything that says it would be treated as "each other's" instead of a transport of its own matching faction.

Or to phrase it differently, allies are driven by what is different but what says faction ownership of a transport is driven by what is different over the faction in common?

That's correct that the FAQ gave no guidance on how to deal with multiple factions. That means that by RAW the FAQ question remains in force when dealing with multiple factions - it says you don't get to deploy in a Battle Brother's vehicle. Since there is also no quidance in the FAQ about treating multiple faction units as the same unit for alliance if they have one in common, we are forced by RAW to consider all the factions and see whether any of the factions are Battle Brothers. If they are Battle Brothers, then they can not deploy in the Battle Brother's vehicle. Is it what they intended? Probably not for this. (It does raise the question though about the Inquisitorial warband - if you have an Astropath and an Adeptus Sororitas model in it, does that mean the unit could start out deployed in a Valkyrie or in an Immolator at the start if they were also in the army?)

Even if they did intend you not to check that they're battle brothers if they share a faction, they have not established that as RAW, so you are still forced to check to see if they are battle brothers and by RAW would not allow them to board. Since it looks like they intended for Ynnari to not have any problems deploying in Ynarri vehicles (regardless of what other factions are involved), just check with your opponent or tournament organizer beforehand to make sure they agree. I'm sure most people would be reasonable on this.

Silentz wrote:
Hard to understand how people are rules lawyering that two units that have the faction Ynnari cannot be the same faction. Pretending that 'Ynnari/Dark Eldar' is a specific faction is pure nonsense.

The book states that all units in the reborn warhost have the Ynnari faction, thus they are the same faction and the allies rule doesn't apply.

Taking them outside the detachment that grants that faction would remove their ability to share a ride.

This kind of thing will definitely be clarified if 40k adopts the keywords system that AOS uses.

Exactly this.

There is no such thing as Ynnari/Dark Eldar with a slash.

RAW says that every model in the detachment has Ynnari faction (on top of ...) and that means they can start aboard any transport and joined to any unit.

Also, this is a YMDC thread.

Audustum wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Until a FAQ is presented for this mess of a book, the situation is no different than multi faction situations as before. When a unit has more than one faction, it still has both factions; RAW it may not embark during deployment. This came up before and hasn't changed with this book.

This interpretation is hotly disputed and has been heavily debated just recently on this very forum.

Some people interpret the FAQ as saying they must have ALL factions in common while some say that since they have A faction in common you don't even go to the Allies Matrix.

Doesn't the Space Marine codex have a similar issue explained in the chapter tactics? When it has two different chapter tactics in a unit, it counts as neither. Shouldn't that semi-apply here? Or at least a variant of it?

morgoth wrote:

Silentz wrote:
Hard to understand how people are rules lawyering that two units that have the faction Ynnari cannot be the same faction. Pretending that 'Ynnari/Dark Eldar' is a specific faction is pure nonsense.

The book states that all units in the reborn warhost have the Ynnari faction, thus they are the same faction and the allies rule doesn't apply.

Taking them outside the detachment that grants that faction would remove their ability to share a ride.

This kind of thing will definitely be clarified if 40k adopts the keywords system that AOS uses.

Exactly this.

There is no such thing as Ynnari/Dark Eldar with a slash.

RAW says that every model in the detachment has Ynnari faction (on top of ...) and that means they can start aboard any transport and joined to any unit.

Also, this is a YMDC thread.

Not entirely correct, depending on how much you consider an FAQ RAW.

Just having one Faction the same as another means absolutely nothing so long as there is another Faction that is different also present in the same unit. The has been stated several times now:

The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.

Ynnari is different from Eldar just as much as Eldar is different from Dark Eldar. So, when one of those Transports sees a unit from their detachment, it sees a unit with two Factions, and two of them are different from its two. After all Ynnari does not match Eldar, and Eldar does not match Ynnari. The fact that Ynnari matches Ynnari means nothing as we are not supposed to consider this ramification at any point.

Now, if we only consider rules that are in the rulebook and the amendments and errata to such that have been provided, this is no problem. Battle Brothers can enter Transports with no restrictions.

It is only when one applies the FAQs which have zero written rule support (as opposed to clarifying a bad writing) that this actually becomes a problem.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Well, that logic applies because the rule actually states that they are not just Ynnari, but Ynnari & Eldar, or Ynnair & Dark Eldar, or Ynnari and Harlequins. This is what the phrase "in addition to" means. You add it on, not replace it.

.

Indeed you add on to it. This is no different than being dual citizenship. Being Irish-American means that I have access to anything as an "American", voting etc, the same way a regular single citizenship "American" would, If someone were British-American, they would have all the same rights as both of us because we are all American. Now any rule that referenced "Irish" would only apply to me, etc. Whenever something comes up that only "Americans" can do, they do not exclude you because you are Irish-American, British_American etc.

Except, in this analogy, the Ynnari is the American portion. It doesn't make the Irish Eldar suddenly British Dark Eldar.

Your right, except that we are talking about "American" Transports that can only hold "Americans"

 Charistoph wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Silentz wrote:
Hard to understand how people are rules lawyering that two units that have the faction Ynnari cannot be the same faction. Pretending that 'Ynnari/Dark Eldar' is a specific faction is pure nonsense.

The book states that all units in the reborn warhost have the Ynnari faction, thus they are the same faction and the allies rule doesn't apply.

Taking them outside the detachment that grants that faction would remove their ability to share a ride.

This kind of thing will definitely be clarified if 40k adopts the keywords system that AOS uses.

Exactly this.

There is no such thing as Ynnari/Dark Eldar with a slash.

RAW says that every model in the detachment has Ynnari faction (on top of ...) and that means they can start aboard any transport and joined to any unit.

Also, this is a YMDC thread.

Not entirely correct, depending on how much you consider an FAQ RAW.

Just having one Faction the same as another means absolutely nothing so long as there is another Faction that is different also present in the same unit. The has been stated several times now:

The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.

Ynnari is different from Eldar just as much as Eldar is different from Dark Eldar. So, when one of those Transports sees a unit from their detachment, it sees a unit with two Factions, and two of them are different from its two. After all Ynnari does not match Eldar, and Eldar does not match Ynnari. The fact that Ynnari matches Ynnari means nothing as we are not supposed to consider this ramification at any point.

Now, if we only consider rules that are in the rulebook and the amendments and errata to such that have been provided, this is no problem. Battle Brothers can enter Transports with no restrictions.

It is only when one applies the FAQs which have zero written rule support (as opposed to clarifying a bad writing) that this actually becomes a problem.

Dude.. they are BOTH Ynnari.

That's it. Nothing to discuss, nothing to consider.

Whatever you or others may state on the topic is irrelevant: they are the exact same faction.

Unfortunately RAW doesn't back that statement up. They tell you to look at different factions. And, the obviously aren't the "exact same faction" when they have multiple factions and at least one differ. RAI, I agree with you and I think most people will aplay it that way. RAW though, not so much agreement with what you're saying.

If there's nothing to discuss and what others are saying is irrelevant, I'm sure you can provide the rules citation to prove that.

 doctortom wrote:
Unfortunately RAW doesn't back that statement up. They tell you to look at different factions. And, the obviously aren't the "exact same faction" when they have multiple factions and at least one differ. RAI, I agree with you and I think most people will aplay it that way. RAW though, not so much agreement with what you're saying.

If there's nothing to discuss and what others are saying is irrelevant, I'm sure you can provide the rules citation to prove that.

There is zero RAW support for the theory that they are not the exact same faction.

Here's what the BRB says:

The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.

Unit A is Ynneari&&Eldar
Unit B is Ynneari&&Harlequin

Unit A and B have the same faction.

It's only a matter of defining what it means to have a faction.

If you see it as a set bit, as it is intended in the case of multiple factions, then everything's fine.

More RAW to the rescue:

Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes.

Battle Brothers cannot embark into each other's transports.
BUT
Wraithguard from Ynneari Detachment 1 can deploy in Raiders from Ynneari Detachment 2 and vice versa.

This tells us that Ynneari multi-faction units are NOT to be considered as Battle Brothers with regards to deployment within transport vehicles.