If the codex of your primary army was being updated, what changes would you make to improve the codex as a whole - not necessarily making the army more competitive, but more representative of their character? Internal/external balance is great and all, but how would you go about it?

e.g. For orks:
- add more melee weapon options - there's only so much that choppa/big choppa/klaw/saw can cover. What about big blunt objects? crazy mek doodads with a table to roll on to see what the the weapon actually does? etc.
- make the random element of the book less self-destructive and balanced more towards "anything can happen" - I've heard that older editions did this well?
- Make the g/morkanaughts superheavy - look at the size of them for 's sake!
- bring back the kustom stompa as a lord of war. The one thing the ork army should not be is monotonous
- give ork walkers a bonus to compensate for their cruddy initiative (more attacks? dunno tbh)
- give nobz eavy armour base
- give the special characters more, well, character. not just insert a nob boss with special HoW/plasma weapon and 3+ armour
- change the mob rule to reward mob gameplay? maybe make the Ld of a unit equal to the number of ork models within 12", with >10 = fearless? Haven't given it much thought tbh

I'm interested to see how people would go about molding the current codices to better represent the feel of their army

Orks,
- Remove all formations.
- Include IA8 in the codex.
- Half the point cost of anything in the codex.

Inq.
- Cheaper transports and wargear.

Its simple but it works.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Orks,
- Remove all formations.
- Include IA8 in the codex.
- Half the point cost of anything in the codex.

Inq.
- Cheaper transports and wargear.

Its simple but it works.

3 point Orks? Seems a bit much?

BA become vanilla marines.

PUT ALL THE UPDATES/SUPPLEMENTS INTO ONE SODDING BOOK!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

3 point Orks? Seems a bit much?

3 point orks seems fair in a meta where 3 point space marines are the norm.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

3 point Orks? Seems a bit much?

3 point orks seems fair in a meta where 3 point space marines are the norm.

You wot? (again)

Well, he's probably talking about the Gladius, which gets you free Rhinos. In a Min Squad of Tacs, that's 105 points for 70 points, or 33% discount. Applying that to the Marine, and it costs 9.33 points per Space Marine.

In other words, he's exaggerating his butt off.

modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

The perfect update to Dark Eldar would be to revert to the Old Dark Eldar codex in almost every way apart from keeping the current Scourges and Reavers. Keep formations. Don't care about relics, old artifacts of pain were just as good (shattershard ftw).

I just want Incubi to have grenades (Phantasm grende launcher), Ravagers to be worth a dam, Beastpacks to be worth a dam, Our Dark Kin aristocracy back (Duke, Baron and Lady) and goddamit I want Venom Blades. The new codex sucked all the life outta my book.

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

And this is proof of why like 90% of you should not be posting in the Proposed Rules Forum. I don't think I'm the single greatest person ever but I'm sure as hell better than most of you.

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

How? (Sorry, not a lot of SM players in our area)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

And this is proof of why like 90% of you should not be posting in the Proposed Rules Forum. I don't think I'm the single greatest person ever but I'm sure as hell better than most of you.

Also, where did that come from? He was a little salty that SM can spam cheap troops better than Orks and you respond with "I'm sure as hell better than most of you"?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

How? (Sorry, not a lot of SM players in our area)

Space marines use the fuffly gladius strike force detachment. It give them free transport and guess what. 3 pts space marines are really good as in cut thoat tournament lv good ; )
Just look at this list of winning tournament lists, nearly all of the SM players field that lists -> http://bloodofkittens.com/7th-edition-army-list-compendium/

 mrhappyface wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

How? (Sorry, not a lot of SM players in our area)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

And this is proof of why like 90% of you should not be posting in the Proposed Rules Forum. I don't think I'm the single greatest person ever but I'm sure as hell better than most of you.

Also, where did that come from? He was a little salty that SM can spam cheap troops better than Orks and you respond with "I'm sure as hell better than most of you"?

Maybe because nobody should be paying 15 points for a Tactical Marine? The real Salt was from them not me

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Maybe because nobody should be paying 15 points for a Tactical Marine? The real Salt was from them not me

I don't know if it's because it's late but I can't understand you properly.

Did you mean 15pts for a tactical squad?
And when you say "salt was from them" is "them" Zoggy or the SM players?

Sorry if I am being a dipstick.

One book for my Admech, which includes the option for some type of transport vehicle. Preferably an assault vehicle.

Tau Empire:
A few units increase in points and/or have their save reduced to 3+ (Stormsurge/Piranha and Riptides, respectively).
Ion Accelerator reduced in range to 48".
Ghostkeel point cost increased by 5 points.
Chapter Tactics equivalents are added for each of the Tau septs (potentially replacing Supporting Fire or reducing its baseline effectiveness, to keep things balanced)
Hammerhead Railguns are made a bit more effective (D is too much, 10/1 is too little - Ordnance or Tankhunter and Monster Hunter, maybe?)
Broadside Heavy Rail Rifle is made Rapid Fire instead of Heavy, and reduced to 48" range (the old railguns were replaced because they were "too clunky" according to the codex, so the new weakshit HRR ought to demonstrate that). All broadsides increase in cost by 5 points.
Coldstars are made T5, so they don't get Instagibbed by a failed grounding check when they fly. Possibly increase in cost to compensate.
Devilfish/Hammerheads/Skyrays reduced in cost slightly (5-10 points).
Vehicle-mounted SMS cost increased in comparison to the BC (5 points).
Vehicle Multi-tracker and Target Lock (from past editions) returns at 10/5 points, allowing firing-as-if-Fast and splitting fire respectively.
Stealth Suits reduced in cost by 5 points each.
Drone point costs in Drone Squadrons reduced by 2 points.
Ghostkeels, Riptides, and Stormsurges gain the "Mecha" special rule: Poison and Fleshbane only wound on 6+, while Haywire wounds on 2+ and gains Rending, and Tank Hunter, Armorbane, and Melta at half range re-roll to-wound.
Give Kroot S4 again.
Give Vespid an alternative firing mode - something like 3/6 Template - or Rending (if they use their claws for mining through rocks/asteroids, as was implied in older codexes, they really ought to have rending in CC).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

How? (Sorry, not a lot of SM players in our area)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

And this is proof of why like 90% of you should not be posting in the Proposed Rules Forum. I don't think I'm the single greatest person ever but I'm sure as hell better than most of you.

Also, where did that come from? He was a little salty that SM can spam cheap troops better than Orks and you respond with "I'm sure as hell better than most of you"?

Maybe because nobody should be paying 15 points for a Tactical Marine? The real Salt was from them not me

You seem to be confused, here, I'll highlight the salt so you don't miss it. It was most definitely from you.

3pt Marines is stupid, but I agree 15pt Marines aren't great either. TBH I've given up with balance in 40K, GW obviously don't give a gak with all the stuff they come out with. 40K needs an overhaul, and I smell an End Times in the air.

Martel732 wrote:
BA become vanilla marines.

I would be fine with that as long as their units stay intact. Basically, combine them the way Black Templars did.

Don't even care anymore.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't even care anymore.

It isn't like it would be hard. Make Descent Of Angels the first part of the Chapter Tactic and then add the +1S/I as the second part.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't even care anymore.

It isn't like it would be hard. Make Descent Of Angels the first part of the Chapter Tactic and then add the +1S/I as the second part.

Yup. Make all non-Land Raider tanks Fast as part of Chapter Tactics as well.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The perfect update to Dark Eldar would be to revert to the Old Dark Eldar codex in almost every way apart from keeping the current Scourges and Reavers. Keep formations. Don't care about relics, old artifacts of pain were just as good (shattershard ftw).

I just want Incubi to have grenades (Phantasm grenade launcher), Ravagers to be worth a dam, Beast Packs to be worth a dam, Our Dark Kin aristocracy back (Duke, Baron and Lady) and goddammit I want Venom Blades. The new codex sucked all the life outta my book.

I'd also keep the PFP and combat drug changes from the more recent codex and the changes to Grotesques, and the Talos/Cronos squadrons (though previous costs and weapon stats for both)

Thousand Sons:
Mark of Tzeentch changes all aspiring champions into Aspiring Sorcerers at Level 1 in addition to what it does now so the Mark has some functional use outside of characters and units with a pre-existing invulnerable save.

Rubric Marines have the aspiring sorcerer changed to level 2 to allow for better spell options and for them to be 3 points cheaper per model and have the same gear options as standard marines. No more full units of flamers. Just a special and access to heavy at 10 would be great.

Grey Knights: Bring back multiple Attacks per model and psychic powers that do something. Possibly a ranged weapon that can do something to tanks, and give the Troops units two heavy weapons per five.

Orks:

Good god, please give us an invuln. in both shooting and close combat again. For a race so focused on krumpin in melee, we have little to no protection, either make cybork bodies a 5+ invuln. again or make it give +1 to existing FNP rolls (in the case of no FNP, it just gives a 6+ FNP save). Then give us a zzap field or something that is a 4+ or 5+ invuln that gives off an automatic S5 AP- hit every time against an enemy in base contact when you roll a 6 to save.

Make the KFF more useful by letting it create a bubble out of vehicles again AND actually protect the guys inside a transport from wounds caused by No Escape!. If not make the KFF a 12" bubble because being on a per model basis rather than unit makes it extremely hard for coverage outside of taking a Morkanaut.

Nobz become Ld8 (never understood why they don't have higher leadership than boyz) and T5 base with 'eavy armour. They pay 15 points per bike like normal people rather than

Boyz become S4 base. They could lose furious charge if necessary in return, I would prefer the consistency of having S4 all the time.

More kinds of CC weapons, like 'Uge Ammers, updates to big choppas like making them AP4 and rending by default, making burnas more accessible to units like Ork boyz or Stormboyz.

Gitfindas give a flat +1BS bonus rather than only giving it when you're staying still. Make it an accessible upgrade option to Lootas and vehicles.

Flash Gitz gain a 4+ armour save base like they should and have options to upgrade their guns like before. Blastier makes them APD3 instead but gain Gets Hot! Shootier gives them +1S on their guns. More Dakka! gives them an extra shot. They are treated as always having a character for the case of Mob Rule so that those bosspoles on each model actually do something.

Mob Rule table is reversed, and more importantly INCLUDES rolling for fear tests. So a 6 is auto-pass (with the slight change that this includes during the shooting phase rather than just in CC), 4-5 is breaking heads and 1-3 is squabble. The hits are resolved at D3 S4 AP- hits for results of breaking heads and squabble. Squabble is changed so that it happens as long as there are 5 models and lower. More importantly, this makes WAAAGH! Ghazghkull's +2 modifier actually make sense (since now you auto-pass on a 4+ for Mob Rule) and it does something for trukk boyz units.

Ramshackle rule applied to all Ork vehicles. It gives a 4+ save to reduce penetrating hits to glances, and a 4+ save to reduce glancing hits into nothing.

Gorka/Morkanauts become SHW, with the Morkanaut's KMK getting large blast and the Gorkanauts Deffstorm Megashoota becoming twin-linked and gaining rending.

Zagstruk and Badrukk go back in their respective fast attack and heavy support slots and become slotless if either a unit of stormboyz or flash gitz are taken as a choice respectively. Zagstruk gets at initiative power klaws on the charge back (as well as allowing his unit to assault from deep strike, why do space marines get it when we had it first?) and his Ld9 + Violent Disciplinarian rule again while giving his accompanying unit of stormboyz move through cover. Badrukk gets a fancy master-crafted power sword and gives his accompanying unit of Flash Gitz preferred enemy.

Make more tiered units of ork oddboyz.

Painboyz become like Meks and gain boy stats (and go to 30 points) but otherwise have the urty syringe and dok's tools and you may take them for every Ork HQ you take.

Weirdboyz have the same thing, ork boy stats, 25 point cost with their weapon and ML1. They get a built in 5+ invuln. with WAAAGH! field.

Then have upper tier versions of these that actually take up an HQ slot, called Painbosses and Weirdbosses (who can go up to ML3). They have Ld8 and have proper Nob stats (which in this case, remember, have T5) with access to wargear and relics.

Finally, balance out the randomness of Ork shooting to give us either more ways to provide consistency at cost or make it so that our random bad results are balanced out by significantly good results rather than the "meh" we get now.

Necrons

Ctan roll 2D6 and pick when choosing their powers, still keeping their current format of choosing squad first then power (it would be stupid broken if it was the other way around, 2d6 at least gives some reliability while retaining the randomness).

Points cost for formations. (less of specific codex thing, more of a general 40k thing)

Higher WS on the D/Lord (having a lower WS than a O/Lord seems odd and ill fitting)

Move flayed ones to infantry.

Give an upgrade option to any unit that gives them the flayer virus, reducing the BS but increasing their WS.

Allow anyone to embark on a Ghost Ark, keep its capacity at 10 and the rules for replenishing warriors.

Plastic models.

* Legion rules in the codex
* All Word Bearers units re-roll failed Morale tests.
* All Chaos Icons also work as locator beacons and icon bearers can make Look out, sir rolls.
* Possessed have two close combat weapons, scouts and Toughness 5 base.
* All Dark Apostle's abilities have 12" range (beseech the Dark Gods, demagogue, WB Zealot bubble).
* Defiler is T6 W6 Sv3+/5++ GMC.
* Units that can be taken as troops due to Legion rules can replace CSM squads in Chaos Warband / BL Warband.
* Warpsmith price reduction to 90 pts, can repair Defiler restoring a wound instead of hull point.

Something that can go toe to toe with a gargantuan. Either a big daemon or some protection from having 300+ point models just being stomped away.
Less random stuff would be nice too.

Dark Angels:
-Make Asmodai worth taking. As it is, he is the worst character choice in the whole codex.
-Reduce point cost of all Deathwing by 5 ppm, or else make it where they can assault after deep striking (maybe consider it a disorderly charge like Raptor Talon?). Really all Terminators could use this treatment.
-Reduce the warp charge cost of a couple of the Interromancy spells. Trephination shouldn't be WC2; it only affects 1 model (basically Psychic Shriek: feth THAT guy version). It it affected a whole squad I could understand WC2.
-Update the Space Marine Bike wargear entry to confer the Ravenwing special rule to characters that take one. Also allow a Company Master to take a bike.
-Give Azrael AP2 on his weapon and Eternal Warrior; with these changes, increase his cost to 230-240 or so. He should be a badass capable of going toe to toe with the vanilla chapter masters, but he's too easy to kill as it is. He should be good without having to take a huge blob of Fenrisian wolves with him.

Khorne Daemonkin:
-Reduce Berserkers point cost to 15 ppm; make Chainaxes either free built-in upgrades or give them Rending. Otherwise Berserkers are absolutely worthless.
-Fix the Khorne's Bloodstorm formation to allow Raptors and Warp Talons in the formation to make a disorderly charge after deep striking. Might make that formation good instead of just a way to get a Heldrake in a Blood Host detachment.
-Add a unit of Berserkers on Juggernauts to the mix. I'd love a kit like this as long as the rules for them don't suck. They could be like Khorne's version of Thunderwolf Cavalry (just call them Juggernaut Cavalry or something).
-Give Bloodthirsters a built-in FnP or increase their toughness to 7. They are way too fragile for their cost.
-Add a way to take a Chaos Knight of Khorne in a Blood Host detachment, perhaps as a War Engine choice. They did it for the Kytan, after all.
-Give Bloodletters a FnP on the turn they deep strike. They might live long enough to accomplish something then.
-Reduce the point cost of Possessed, Warp Talons, Defilers, and Bloodcrushers. Defilers are worthless, especially when the codex also contains the Soul Grinder, which is better in every way.

Tau Empire:
-Give Vespids either Assault 2 on their guns, or some kind of special abilities in melee. Right now they are a bad joke.
-Reduce the point costs of both of the flyers. They are too expensive considering how fragile they are, and their firepower isn't all that great either.
-Improve Rail Weapons. One way I thought of was to make each gun have the following ability: Hammerhead Railgun: On a 6 to hit, the weapon's strength becomes D. Heavy Rail Rifle: On a 6 to hit, the weapon's strength becomes 10. Rail Rifle: On a 6 to hit, the weapon's strength becomes 8. Otherwise, I'd say just improve the Hammerhead and Broadside's rail weapons to have Armorbane. Longstrike should have some way to get a D shot though, because in the fluff he headshotted a Titan!
-Fix the Coldstar so that if he fails a grounding test he only takes a Strength 7 hit. He's not as big as a true FMC, so he shouldn't land as hard. This way he wouldn't be just dead from a hard landing.
-Find a way to improve Pathfinders, so that there's actually a choice between them and Marker Drones as a markerlight source.

Last but not least, I'm going to chime in on a codex that I don't own and think should be toned down a bit to make the game more fair.
Eldar:
-Increase the cost of Windriders, and/or make them a fast attack option rather than troops. Keep the Windrider Host formation so people can still play a jetbike-heavy list (like a fluffy Saim-Hann force).
-Increase the cost of Warp Spiders, or put a cap on how many can be taken in an army, or else reduce their capabilities somehow. These things really grind my gears more than anything else in the Eldar book.
-Make it so the Aspect Host formation has to be 3 different units rather than spamming one type. Might increase the usage of Aspect Warriors that aren't Warp Spiders or Fire Dragons.
-Increase the cost of the Wraithknight by 30-50 points.
Sorry if this one seems like a big anti-Eldar rant, but I feel like these nerfs would still leave Eldar plenty strong but not overwhelmingly so, and might increase the variety of Eldar lists you see in tournaments. As it is, most Eldar lists I see consist of 3-5 units of Scatbikes, a Wraithknight, one or two Farseers on bikes, either a Warphunter or a Vaul's Wrath D-barrage battery, and as many Warp Spiders as the player can cram into the list via Aspect Host formations or Fast Attack slots. I wouldn't mind playing against Eldar so much if there were more variety.

If Bloodthirsters get T7 or FNP, GUO better get something.

Space Wolves - models, abilities and statlines don't bother me, they're pretty good actually.
I want to see the naming team replaced along with the Wolfity wolf in the names - more Space Vikings inspiration.

 JNAProductions wrote:
If Bloodthirsters get T7 or FNP, GUO better get something.

All the greater daemons need some love, they're all so fragile for their high points cost.

I mean several characters fieldable from the armies of the Imperium are TOUGHER, HIT HARDER and aren't so hideously exposed to being shot at ( I.e they can join units)
And they cost less than the cheaper greater Daemons

***make all codexes free downloads***

Space marines
Remove formations
Make heavy bolters good
Allow tactical squads to take 2 special weapons
Make all tanks (predastors, vindicators, whirlwinds, land raiders) better
Remove gets hot rule
Make terminators good
Allow assault out of all vehicles (penalty for non assault veh)
Give assault marines more weapons options
guaranteed 6"+D6" charge range for assault marines

Chaos Spacemarines - put daemons back in the stock codex.

Dark Eldar - as one of the other posters said, revert back to the older codex. Rework power from pain. Make the Voidraven bomber worth a damn, not a one shot waste of points.

Covens - plastic grots and more anti-veicle options.

Just my 2p worth.

Craftworld Eldar: This is supposed to be an army of specialized scalpels, not an army of one-gun-kills-everything generalist sledgehammers. Distortion != Destroyer, pump the Wraithknight to 450-ish points, dial back all the S6 spam. The Falcon needs something to make it something other than a worse Wave Serpent; some sort of improvement to the Pulse Laser, or the ability to go 12" and still drop troops off could be interesting. Take away the Seer Council's one-WC-per-model trick so you can drop the price a bit and make them less terrible in melee. Give Wraithblades two Attacks on profile. And Eldar Jetbikes really ought to be Skilled Riders with a 4+ armour save across the board (Windrider/Skyweaver/Reaver), rather than randomly being worse at riding the bikes and having better armour in the Craftworld book.

Harlequins: Price drop for Troupes; make the basic Harlequin 13pts instead of 15pts (compare the model to a Howling Banshee to see why) and make the Troupe Master an optional 10pt upgrade (like the Exarch he's an exact equivalent of) instead of a mandatory 20pt upgrade. Let Death Jesters have a gun that can do something to armour. Create some HQ choices, and let characters sit on the back of the jetbikes.

Nids!

Synapse grants EW (playable warriors!)
Simplify instinctive behaviour

Nerf the Devourers w/BL worms. S5 maybe? or not twin-linked.
(Flyrants are waaaay too good in shooting)

Make zoanthrope warp blast/lance a shooting attack

Malanthrope in the codex (with a points bump)

Pods back again

Doom back again (with a points bump), Parasite, make the unique units really unique and playable again.

Faction-specific terrain - digestion pools, spore chimneys, hive nodes etc etc

Rework poison, scytals back so our melee units are actually good again

Increased WS and I across the board, BS to 3.

Trygon tunnels actually do something

LoW please...

zerosignal wrote:
Nids!

Synapse grants EW (playable warriors!)
Simplify instinctive behaviour

Nerf the Devourers w/BL worms. S5 maybe? or not twin-linked.
(Flyrants are waaaay too good in shooting)

Make zoanthrope warp blast/lance a shooting attack

Malanthrope in the codex (with a points bump)

Pods back again

Doom back again (with a points bump), Parasite, make the unique units really unique and playable again.

Faction-specific terrain - digestion pools, spore chimneys, hive nodes etc etc

Rework poison, scytals back so our melee units are actually good again

Increased WS and I across the board, BS to 3.

Trygon tunnels actually do something

LoW please...

I like most of your suggestions with the following adj:

Synapse can't give EW it's too much but I'd let it give "All ID attacks (other than D) instead do 2 wounds to Tyranid models within Synapse". (We do need useable Warriors)
Psykers not using GSC or Tyranid psychic powers harness warp at +1 diff and make ld checks for perils at -3 within synapse range. (Yes this means GSC using Biomancy or Telepathy are effected)
Reduce ROF for Monsterous DIV to Assault 4(instead of 6) give them AP 5 (This will make Flyrants less shooty but not nurf them into the ground)

Zoanthropes need a little love but instead of giving them a shooting attack I'd let them manifest on a 2+ for Warp Blast(or make Warp blast lvl 1)
Give Zoanthropes a melee power of some kind like a feedback shield where every saved wound does a wound back at equal str and ap of the saved wound in melee, or a Nova psychic power(maby a 3rd option to warp blast) built in so they can do something in melee other than die.

Reduce base pts for Tyranid prime to 60, and give options to make him a lvl 1 psyker and for wings(Jump infantry) at appropriate costs.

Give Tyranids more psychic options like a second school of 6 new powers and a primaris.

Make Genestealers more like the GSC ones so they are worth using (or maby a frag grenade option and a point reduction) or even just use the exact same stats with a paterarach upgrade and Cult ambush.

Give a Warp field Relic option that gives a 5+ invuln to a HQ.

1. Bring back old mob rule
2. Make regular nobs cheaper
3. Make Zzap guns more reliable (smasha guns are strictly better zzap guns atm)
4. Remove the panic rule from Killa Kanz (the creator of said rule needs to be executed by firing squad)
5. Flash Gitz get a base 4+ armor save for free
6. Burnas can use weapons as flamers and power weapon in the same turn. This was the rule originally, until they nerfed it. What are marines scared of initiative 2 models? please
7. Gork/morkanaut are superheavy. Only moving 6" and firing at single targets is literal torture when knights, who are the same size as you, can do whatever. Riptides are better and they're smaller.
8. Biomancy and Pyromancy for the weirdboy, idk.
9. idk how you fix kommandos, but......fix kommandos.

Bring the ork clans into the spotlight by giving them their own 'chapter tactics' or whatever. More unique army lists and characters please. Nazdreg? Wazzdakka Gutsmek? Zogwort?

Idk this only scratches the surface of the horror that is the ork codex.

Change Terminators as follows:

1. Increase wounds by 1. So your base terminator would have 2 wounds, and Grey Knight Paladins would have 3 wounds, for instance.
2. Increase their toughness by 1 across the board. No terminator should have 4 toughness.
3. Change save to 3+, from 2+.
4. Give the option for 1 generic heavy weapon per 5 terminators.
5. Terminators have 5 initiative on charge. With unwieldy weapons, they strike at initiative 2.

Change Vehicles as follows:

1. Vehicles get an armor save against glancing hits, based on the lowest armor value on the vehicle.
AV11 -> 6+
AV12 -> 5+
AV13 or better -> 4+
AP1 AP2 weapons ignore glancing saves.

Additionally, vehicles can purchase Ceramite Plating as an upgrade. Allow vehicles with tracks to move through difficult or dangerous terrain with no issue.

I agree with the following from:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Tau Empire:
Chapter Tactics equivalents are added for each of the Tau septs (potentially replacing Supporting Fire or reducing its baseline effectiveness, to keep things balanced)
Coldstars are made T5, so they don't get Instagibbed by a failed grounding check when they fly. Possibly increase in cost to compensate.
Stealth Suits reduced in cost by 5 points each.
Drone point costs in Drone Squadrons reduced by 2 points.
Give Vespid an alternative firing mode - something like 3/6 Template - or Rending (if they use their claws for mining through rocks/asteroids, as was implied in older codexes, they really ought to have rending in CC).

Saying "nerf" everything is unrealistic as new improved rules sell models. So I would propose the following in conjunction with that was mentioned above - because I would love for tau armies to have viable, competitive options across the board.
Tau Vehicles I find are most lacking

Cadre Fireblades effect sniper drones.
Vehicles get access to Target Lock - 5pts
Vehicles can purchase an advanced multitracker - Can fire each weapon at a different target - 15pts
Skimmer vehicles can deepstrike
Tanks get access to Shield Generators - 25pts
Tanks all have 11 rear armor

Hammerheads cost 100pts base
**Ion Cannon Turret costs 15pts
***New Ion Cannon Profile - R48" S7 AP3, Ordnance 4 or Overcharged - R60" S8 AP2, Ordnance 1 Large Blast (no longer gets hot), Divert Power: Can only overcharge if the hammerhead did not move in the preceding movement phase.
*Railgun now called Rail Cannon
**Rail Cannon Turret costs 25pts
***New Rail Cannon Profiles - R60" S 10 AP1, Ordnance 1, Overpenetration, Hydrostatic shock
****Overpenetration: When firing at units with a toughness value that is 5 or less this weapon can pass through that target and cause hits to other models in the unit as well as other units along its trajectory. Use the Beam rule for this mechanic. The projectile will stop and not cause further hits if it hits terrain, buildings, vehicles or units with T6 or higher.
****Hydrostatic shock: A weapon with this rule causes D3 wounds. If the weapon causes a penetrating hit, it causes D3 hullpoints damage
***Can buy Destroyer shells as an upgrade - only with railgun turret for an additional 25pts - Profile - R60" S D AP1, Ordnance 1, Overpenetration, Hydrostatic shock* *overridden if a 6 is scored on the Destroyer Table.

Devilfish now 70pts

Skyrays now 110pts

New Tank Available for Tau - Stingray - 90pts , Fast Attack Tank/Transport- 12/12/11 3hp profile Fast Skimmer - Capacity of 6+1 drone, Same load out/options as a devilfish - New turret Sprue:
*Stingray Turrets
**Twin-Linked Heavy Fusion Blasters - 30
***R24" S8 AP1 Heavy 2, Melta
**Twin Linked Heavy Burst Cannons - 20pts
***R36" S5 AP5 Heavy 6, Rending
**Twin-Linked Heavy Plasma Cannons - 25
***R48" S6 Ap2, Rapidfire2

All tau battlesuites from Stealth to Ta'unar get this often talked about "Mecha" special rule, how ever I would modify it. Also think Eldar wraith units should be subjected to this as well.
* Mecha
- Poison only wound on 6+
- Immune to Instant Death / Force / Fleshbane effects
- Monster Hunter has no effect.
- Haywire wounds on 2+
- Tank Hunter = re-roll to-wound
- Armorbane - Does 2 wounds instead of 1.
- Melta - Does 2 wounds instead of 1 and at half range.
- Ordnance - Roll 2 dice to wound, pick the highest
- Primary Weapon - Roll 2 dice to wound, pick the highest
- Grav Wounds on a 3+ for GC/MC models and 4+ for all others - regardless of armor save and unsaved 6's to wound immobilize the Mecha - This is due to the proliferation of Grav and grav amps. as well as the high number of grav shots available. Also since so many other easily available weapons are now impacting the suits with special weapons I think it's a fair trade. Rationality - The mecha are not as heavily armored as tanks which are only affected on a 6. However they are made using advanced technology systems and reinforced composite materials or wriathbone structures.
- Immobilised Mecha - Can only move 1 inch and pivot. cannot Jetpack or Jump pack move.
- All mecha units gain Self Repair which will also remove immobilised penalties on a 5+ and restore wounds on a 6+

Codex Fliers
* Reduce costs for each model by 20pts.
* AV11 all around
*Interceptor drones for both models and the drones have velocity trackers and built in EOW
*Pulse bombs gain Shred
*Pulse bomb generator does not fail permanently on a 1. Rather bombs are regenerated on a 3+
*Ion Turret is AP3, AP2 if overcharged
*Razorshark gets Markerlight turret in the nose rather than burst cannon. - Since it now would have the Interceptor drones. Nose missile pod option is still available and is now modeled to the top side of the quad gun turret.

Kroot
*Give Kroot S4 & T4 and 5+ save.
*Give them stealth (general)
*Kroot receive 2ppm price increase
*Add new rule - Genetic Assimilation - Only available if a Shaper has been added to the squad.
Genetic Assimilation: Anytime Kroot win an assault phase and an enemy unit is killed, that kroot unit can immediately go to ground. The next controlling player turn, the kroot can automatically get back up with no penalties and act normally. While they had gone to ground they ate their foe and gained their abilities. That Kroot squad has now gained the abilities of that squad for the remainder of the game. There is no limit to how many times the kroot can do this. These abilities must be intrinsic to the squad and not an ability granted through wargear or item upgrades.

Broadsides
*Gain Relentless via unit upgrade - Upgraded power generator - 10ppm - can still take 1 wargear option
*Gain +1 Toughness
*Now have Railguns with new profile - 48" Str 10 AP1 Heavy 1, Overpenetration, Hydrostatic shock
*Receive a 5pt increase

Nids:
The idea is to make the ground Nids good enough that Flyrants will be no longer seen as the most important unit.

Give us back Biomancy and Telepathy.

Genestealers should be updated to be balanced with GSC Purestrains. Make them (much) cheaper or make them comparable, there's a huge gap between them for a same price.

The Biomorph table for MCs should get a new leg biomorph that grants +3" to Run distance and enable Run & Charge if the unit rolled at least 4 on its Run roll.

Hormagants, Rippers, Trygons and Trygon Primes should be Beasts.

Any Tyranid IC should auto-pass Look Out Sir! checks to models in an attached unit, even in challenges. All GSC leaders can do that, there's no reason why Hive mind controlled organisms couldn't do the same.

Trygons can roll for DS in Turn 1 and can select another non-MC unit in reserves that will arrive next turn per their old rule. If Trygon mishaps and rolls 1 on the mishap table, the joined unit rolls as well. On 3+ it is placed in ongoing reserves, on 1-2 it is burried and destroyed.

Give optional 4+ Warp field upgrade for ground Tyrants.

Swarmlord should have Eternal Warrior, 4++ against all. He should be to regenerate 1 wound each turn and raise a single fallen Tyrant Guard from his escort at the beginning of each turn. Yeah, that.

Swooping Flyrant has BS3 against ground targets.

Weapons:
- Make Rupture Canon on Tyrannofex AP2, AP1 if both shots hit. 200 points for two shots at BS3 aren't going to be OP...
- Make Fleshborer Hive twin-linked.
- Add a second mode to the Heavy Venom Cannon: S9 Assault 1 AP2. (no blast).
- Make MC Twin-linked Deathspitters STR6 Assault 4 AP4, Range 24" to make them at least somewhat comparable to TL devourers.
- A model gets +1WS for each pair of Scything Talons (the bonus remains in effect when using other melee weapons, just like on GSC Metamorphs)

Tyranid army mechanics:
- All other units than Gants and Rippers can LoS on 4+ to a friendly gaunt model within 6" if both units are within 12" of a Synapse creature. Swooping FMCs can't be protected in this way.
- Units fall back to the nearest Synaptic creature or to the board edge (the owner can choose).
- All enemy psykers under Shadow in the warp suffer -3 to their leadership and manifest spells with -1 penalty on 5+. If the Swarmlord is in the game, they manifest with -2 penalty on 6+.
- Synapse grants Fearless.
- Multiwound models within Synapse range require +1S to be instantly killed (S7 against T3 Rippers, S9 against T4 Warriors or Zoanthropes).

New main detachment:
- "Without numbers": All gaunts can replenish their losses by 1d6 at the beginning of a turn if they are within Synapse range and farther than 6" from and enemy model.
- All units in the detachment auto-pass their Instinctive Behaviour checks as long as at least one Synaptic Creature in the formation is alive.

 Marmatag wrote:
Change Terminators as follows:

1. Increase wounds by 1. So your base terminator would have 2 wounds, and Grey Knight Paladins would have 3 wounds, for instance.
2. Increase their toughness by 1 across the board. No terminator should have 4 toughness.
3. Change save to 3+, from 2+.
4. Give the option for 1 generic heavy weapon per 5 terminators.
5. Terminators have 5 initiative on charge. With unwieldy weapons, they strike at initiative 2.

Termies need love but you're going a little overboard. An extra wound would solve a lot of problems but they should stay toughness 4 or they'll get out of control. Not everyone has access to lots of strength 10 you know.

 Don Savik wrote:
Bring the ork clans into the spotlight by giving them their own 'chapter tactics' or whatever.

I like the idea of the clans getting chapter tactics or Traitor Legions type of treatment, with interesting formations and the ability to take a decurion that brings in all of the clans.

It would be nice to see the basic boyz getting buffs. Something like Goff boyz are S4, Bad Moon shoota boyz count as twin-linked, Evil Sunz boyz get bailout, etc.

Make chaos terminators have 2 wounds.
Other than that, maybe give zombies the ability to buy additional ccw's.

Naaris wrote:


Kroot
*Give Kroot S4 & T4 and 5+ save.
*Give them stealth (general)
*Kroot receive 2ppm price increase
*Add new rule - Genetic Assimilation - Only available if a Shaper has been added to the squad.
Genetic Assimilation: Anytime Kroot win an assault phase and an enemy unit is killed, that kroot unit can immediately go to ground. The next controlling player turn, the kroot can automatically get back up with no penalties and act normally. While they had gone to ground they ate their foe and gained their abilities. That Kroot squad has now gained the abilities of that squad for the remainder of the game. There is no limit to how many times the kroot can do this. These abilities must be intrinsic to the squad and not an ability granted through wargear or item upgrades.

As hilarious as it would be to then see furious charge, 'ere we go, mob rule, mekanik, tank hunter, cowardly grots, WAAAGH,independent character, ambush, boss of the redskull kommandos, fear, glory hogs, one scalpel short of a medpack, WAAGH energy, and prophet of gork and mork, kroot I think it would be asking a lot.

As well as those skinny bridmen being stronger than orks

Or the kroot ate a guardsmen' badge and can now issue orders to itself to fire one extra lasgun shot.

Tyranids: give them back immunity to Insta Death

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

This is called 'cherry picking'

Hotshot lasguns at assault 2/3

Allow a much, much wider selection of gear for Scions (gas grenades, demolition charge, camo cloaks etc), give them a selection of special operations that gives them additionnal benefits

Squad sergeants able to give orders to their own squads, with commanders able to give out 2 orders, allowing orders to stack.

Give them all the Imperial Navy flyers from FW

TAU
-- remove stimulant injectors from Riptide
-- Hammerhead railgun is Heavy 3
-- Broadside railguns are Rapid Fire
-- Markerlights reduce cover by -1 per token
-- Drones don't count towards casualties for morale checks

TYRANIDS

Nuke the codex from orbit and restart with the 3rd edition version (the one with the build-your-own tyranids w/ mutations).

ALL

Remove formations

Imperial Agents:

Make Inquisitors not suck again. As far as the fluff is concerned, Inquisitors should be the most diverse and varied unit in the entire game. Instead, we get a handful of options shoe-horned into each order. The Inquisitors themselves aren't very good to begin with, but more importantly, their options are threadbare and boring. Every Inquisitor operates and fights (if they fight at all) differently, and this should be represented on the tabletop. One single unit entry with a full wargear selection (give us eviscerators again!), with the player having to pick an order that gives access to relics, warlord traits, and formation bonuses. I want to see the most weird and wonderful equipment that the Imperium can bring to bear, and some that the Imperium can't (heresy!).

Moreover, Inquisitional retinues should be more interesting. What happened to Inquisitional Stormtroopers? Why are we limited to the incredibly weak and bland Acolyte statline? More varied statlines should be made available to represent the wide varieties of characters that acolytes themselves might represent, not just a cheap, barebones guardsman profile.

Make Daemonhosts not suck. They don't have to be oppressively good, but just not being horrifically bad for once would be great.

Basically, an Inquisitional retinue needs to represent a rag-tag bunch of characters hand picked by a the caprices and eccentricities of the Inquisitors who command them. These are the men and women chosen by the highest authority in the Imperium, each with their own unique backgrounds and skills that made them valuable and notable in the first place, and the power and variety available should be made to represent that.

Also, give us Inquisitor Lords as HQs (WS/BS 5, other stuff), make regular Inquisitors Elites, and let the retinues be troops. Old fashioned 3e dex style, just so that they can legally and viably function as killteams again. You know, the most fluff-appropriate type of game for an Inquisitional warband in the first place... not at all like how the bungled FoC in the Imperial Agents book makes absolutely no sense at all and completely disallows any reasonable inquisitor or varied and flavourful retinue from actually taking part in the one game type perfectly suited for them.

Orks :

- Make the Orks feel like a distinctive xenos race (instead of the myopic IG on steroids they are now) and give them a unique army wide special rule (cause Waaagh is not only really lame, it doesn't fit them imo). For example, I'd like the new Codex to put an emphasis on the latent psychic power they each possess (red vehicle go faster because they believe so, run down piece of junk becomes a gun in their hand,...) and it increasing exponentially when they gather. For example, have their Furious Charge bonus give a further +1 S for every 10 models in the units (with Nobz counting for 2), I'd like to see the Strenght of their Shoota and Slugga follow a similar mechanism (S=3 for 1-10, S=4 for 11-20, S=5 for 21-30)

- Definitively get them new c.c. weapons. Shocking that for a melee army, they have so few options and none unique. Also, allows Big Choppa (and maybe some other, not too powerful, new weapons) to be taken by regular boyz

- Don't give them any Invul. apart from KFF. Their tech is crude and low-level. Still, boost Cybork Body to 5+ FNP (with maybe making it give a malus to WS and I so it's not an auto take).

- Give them some specific clan benefits, kind of like CSM just got with traitors legions.

- Change Waaagh and Ere We Go. Close combat, speedy horde army is the Tyranids game imo, I'd much have Waagh giving either Rage or/and HoW (with it's Strengh depending on the unit size) and an extra shot to Shoota's.

-

 Arlen wrote:
One book for my Admech, which includes the option for some type of transport vehicle. Preferably an assault vehicle.

Maybe I'm too fond of the obvious fluff ploy to deny the use of vehicles by saying "Skitarii never stop walking, even if it'll take years to reach the enemy".
I'm pretty meh about giving them a transport, but then again, I'm always playing on 4x4 boards, where it isn't a biggy.

But at least we've got Fires of Cyraxus to (assumedly) grants us the Karaknos and Triaros.

What I'd like to see?

Kataphrons forego some of their utterly insane ranged firepower for survivability. They're ex-gangers, with steroids for blood, mounted on a mini tank, and they don't have a ruddy FnP.
All robots (including the Tag stuff) have a 6+ FnP. (Or maybe just give all monstrous creatures 6+ FnP?)
Barrage weaponry. For all their battlefield data, what with every single soldier relaying what they see onto the noosphere, you'd think some chap with a tank would know where to point the cannon, even if they can't see squat.
More command units. The Domini and Datasmiths are cool enough, but being able to bring along magi and other subordinates would feel more proper.

TAU

I think to go along with fluff more, not necessarily to make them more competitive;

- Revise farsight, you shouldn't be able to make a better commander using standard upgrades. Tau only have one ultimate bro, so he should have the rules of one.

- Give broadsides relentless and bring the rail rifle back in line with fluff, S10 AP1 maybe allow sub-munitions? maybe do the HYMP as standard base cost and the rail rifle as a 15pt upgrade? subs another 5/10?

-Devilfish point reduction, and maybe give them deepstrike. take away the option for sms in return. They should be what they are in the fluff, a troop delivery system.

-Do something to make fire warriors worth taking, reduce the points/up bs, anything, because right now breachers are the only thing worth taking.

-I love the idea of sept world chapter tactics

-An option for a crisis melee weapon, it doesn't have to be amazing, just something

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Harlequins: Price drop for Troupes; make the basic Harlequin 13pts instead of 15pts (compare the model to a Howling Banshee to see why) and make the Troupe Master an optional 10pt upgrade (like the Exarch he's an exact equivalent of) instead of a mandatory 20pt upgrade. Let Death Jesters have a gun that can do something to armour. Create some HQ choices, and let characters sit on the back of the jetbikes.

Yes to all.
I also find it hard to deal with high toughness. An easy fix would be to allow players to have 2 melee weapons (replacing the gun): dual caresses would auto-wound on 5+ instead of 6, and dual kisses would give two S6AP2 attacks instead of one.
Alternatively, a new unit that can deal high str (or fleshbane) close combat attacks. Preferably in the HS slot.

Chaos space marines, access to standard drop pods

I play orks, dark eldar and space wolves and despite the fact they're not exremely competitve, especially the first two armies, I'm quite satisfied with their codexes.

Orks: I wouldn't add or change a single rule, but some units need a huge points drop, mostly the walkers but also burnaboyz and battle wagons. I'd like the option to take wagons as dedicated transport at least for non-nobz elites like tankbustas and burnaboyz, maybe also for the boyz if an independent character joins them.

Dark eldar: Incubi need 1-2 more attacks and an invuln in close combat like the wyches, maybe the Fear and Fearless special rules and consequently a points value raise. Units embarked in a transport that jinked the prevoius turn could be able to shoot at their full BS or at least at BS2. I'd like the chance to give jetbikes to independent characters. Orks should have S4 base as they're twice bigger than humans or eldars.

Space wolves: close combat weapon included in the GH profile and blood claws should cost 10 points instead of 12 as they are WS and BS 3.

Chaos Codex:

ALL Chaos marine units, formations, detachments put into one book.
Cheaper hellbrutes, terminators.
Ahriman should not peril.

Daemons Codex:

ALL Daemon units, formations, detachments put into one book.
Buffed greater daemons.
Fateweaver should not peril.

Daemons:
Special KoS character. All other deities get one.
Flamers go back to 4th ed rules (no armor saves against their shots).
HoN can take a plague fly as a mount.
Slaanesh lash weapon gains rending.
Exalted flamer can move and fire weapons.
Masque can use one of the 4-for-1 slots of heralds (but still can't join units). She's 100% useless now as is. Also point reduction.


Absolutely no issue with costs as they currently are, except the Masque.

Let assault marines take bolters, and tactical marines upgrade bolters to stormbolters.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I would be fine with that as long as their units stay intact. Basically, combine them the way Black Templars did.

Maybe for some of them, but not all. If BA players want access to vanilla marine stuff, vanilla marines get access to their stuff. No more of this "oh, you'd like some assault cannons on your predator, to bad, only us special snowflake marines get that" stuff.

andysonic1 wrote:Termies need love but you're going a little overboard. An extra wound would solve a lot of problems but they should stay toughness 4 or they'll get out of control. Not everyone has access to lots of strength 10 you know.

You do know you can kill a model without IDing it, right?

SM:

Get rid of the free transports for Full Battle Company. It's not fluffy and it irritates me no end.

Force me as Ultramarines to field tactical squads as full 10 man units. I do it anyway and I would retain the ability to combat squad but following the Codex Astartes I should only ever operate with less than 10 man squads if casualties necessitate it.

On top of that I'd allow raven guard chapter tactics to allow 3 and 4 man vanguard teams as I've read this is more than common.

More Chapter specific rules like that would better represent the forces I read about on the tabletop.

Plus I'd say give Terminators a better standard invul or an extra wound and stop making my landraiders imobilise themselves on a bush, it's ridiculous.

Finally I'd happily say buy to Centurions. They filled the gap my Terminators were meant to fill by introducing a new model which never previously existed, rather than just fixing one of the most iconic units in the game. Well done GW on that one.

Pr3Mu5 wrote:SM:
Get rid of the free transports for Full Battle Company. It's not fluffy and it irritates me no end.

While I agree it should go (to stop everyone from whining about it to no end if for no other reasons) I don't see how having BCs deploy with a full complement of Rhinos/Razorbacks is not in agreement with the fluff.

 Battlegrinder wrote:
Let assault marines take bolters, and tactical marines upgrade bolters to stormbolters.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I would be fine with that as long as their units stay intact. Basically, combine them the way Black Templars did.

Maybe for some of them, but not all. If BA players want access to vanilla marine stuff, vanilla marines get access to their stuff. No more of this "oh, you'd like some assault cannons on your predator, to bad, only us special snowflake marines get that" stuff.

andysonic1 wrote:Termies need love but you're going a little overboard. An extra wound would solve a lot of problems but they should stay toughness 4 or they'll get out of control. Not everyone has access to lots of strength 10 you know.

You do know you can kill a model without IDing it, right?

Not to mention that the time of their merging the Black Templars only had about 3 unique entries in their entire book, if you don't count a rose by another name.
Blood Angels on the other hand have like 15 unique entries atleast.
Their only hope to get merged would be existing as a supplement, and having to pay for 2 full books just to field my collection would be a serious kick in the teeth.

Eldar:
-"Troop" Windriders go back to 1 per 3 models special weapon. The plastic kit will still be 100% viable now that Black Guardian Windriders exist and are an Elite choice that can upgrade all weapons -Add in all the Black Guardian choices

-ALL DISTORTION WEAPONS ARE -1 TO THE D-TABLE. Scythes are an additional -1
-Wraithguard are 35ppm and can mix Cannons or Scythes for Free. So you could have a single unit of 5 with 2 D-scythes and 3 Wratihcannons.
-Wraith Blades can mix weapons options as well.

-WK goes up to 350pts and come with shoulder weapons standard, all options swap for free. Keep in mind that the Wraithcannon version can no longer 1-shot a large target thanks to -1 D.

-Combine the Storm Guardian and Guardian Defenders formation. They are literally the same formation, just make it 3 units of either kind of Guardian
-Combine the Dire Avenger Host and Aspect Host. They are almost the same thing. Just make the Aspect host require 1 Dire Avenger unit + 2 of any kind of Aspect (including more Dires if you want). It might be good to include an Autarch in this Foramtion as a further "tax" that is fluffy.
-Drop all the "snowflake" rules that the Aspect have, i.e Assured Destruction, Flickerjump, Intercept, etc.
Only their wargear should be granting them rules. Exarch should grant rules like Tank Hunter (for Fire Dragons) or Hit & Run (for Spears) etc

Dark Eldar:
-Archons & Succubi can take Reaver jetbikes
-Haywire Blasters & Heatlances are available to all units that can also take Dark Lances, Blasters and Splinter cannons.
-Trueborn & Sslyth come standard with Ghostplate armour
-Ravagers can move 12" and fire all 3 weapons. Dark lances are a free swarp for Ravagers and Raiders.

-

 mrhappyface wrote:
PUT ALL THE UPDATES/SUPPLEMENTS INTO ONE SODDING BOOK!

THIS.

CSM ideal wants

-A single book approach - not 2 Codexes, 3 Campaign Supplements (one of which is a WHW exclusive), 2 Codex Supplements, an IA book and 2-3 dataslates
-VotLW is free and standard across the board.
-Unit points dropped across the board - especially for the cult units. At the moment Khorne Berserkers are so horrendously overpointed it's not even funny - it's cheaper to take CHOSEN with the Traitor Legions World Eater rules and they're generally more effective.
-Mandatory challenges gone - feel free to keep Champion of Chaos and the boon table but don't force us into challenges. Leave that an option - Risk = Reward. And don't factor that into our points. The amount of times that I've gotten +1 initiative on a model with Unwieldy is unreal. Also - make the Daemon Prince an option rather than mandatory. Champions can refuse to ascend. And I really don't feel like lugging extra daemon princes 'just in case' or losing otherwise viable units because of a random dice roll.
-Dedication system for vehicles ala IA 13.
-Daemon Engines have WS and BS 4 - seriously, we're not imbuing fething Nurglings into the things.
-Dreadnoughts - not just gakky Helbrutes. Give me the Ferrus Infernum in my codex. (Our Venerable equivalent).
-Seriously, points cost reductions.
-Allow for 10+ squads of CSM to have more than the standard 2 special or 1 heavy/1 special. Perhaps 1 special per 5, 1 heavy per 10.
-Heresy era weaponry - since you don't see fit to give us Grav or Multimeltas give us Volkite at the very least. And seriously, give us Multimeltas and Plasma Cannons too.
-Heresy era units - for some reason CSM forgot how to use their whirlwinds, drop pods, land speeders, jet bikes and more - why?

Now you want something crazy that will make every Imperial, Tau and Eldar player screech like an animal?

Make all the Daemon engines into MCs/GCs. Add in LoW units that are viable and don't cost 888+ points.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Now you want something crazy that will make every Imperial, Tau and Eldar player screech like an animal?

Make all the Daemon engines into MCs/GCs. Add in LoW units that are viable and don't cost 888+ points.

Why would we screech? Daemon Engines deserve MC/GC rules as much or more than 'tides/'keels/'surges, dreadknights, and 'lords/'knights.

Eldar:
Remove the huge amounts of StrD
No more full squads of Scatterbikes (I liked the 1-in-3 rule of the old Codex)
More reason to take some of the less competitive Aspect Warriors outside of the Aspect Host (Make Howling Banshees great again!)
Make the Wraithknight about 100pts more expensive.

Blood Angels:
Honestly not too much I'd change since the FAQ giving us all the SM buffs (WS/BS4 Scouts etc.)
Maybe access to some more of the vanilla SM formations?

Imperial Fists:
I'd appreciate some updated sculpts, but rules-wise I'm good.

Skitarii:
Can we please have our own transport?
Please


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Now you want something crazy that will make every Imperial, Tau and Eldar player screech like an animal?

Make all the Daemon engines into MCs/GCs. Add in LoW units that are viable and don't cost 888+ points.

Why would we screech? Daemon Engines deserve MC/GC rules as much or more than 'tides/'keels/'surges, dreadknights, and 'lords/'knights.

Seconded here, it makes way more sense. And even if it would make them harder to kill I think they deserve it because they're badass.

Except for maybe the Heldrake.

Sisters of Battle:
- Reliable long-range firepower.
- Mobility that isn't dependent on AV11-11-10 vehicles surviving five turns of fire from Scatbikes and Riptides. Bikes, Flyers, or Drop Pods maybe.
- Something that allows them to escape close combat without sacrificing their vehicles. Frateris Militia/ Zealots would be nice.
- Five Fast Attack slots.
- Bring back Saint Praxedes and Helena the Virtuous.
- Hellhound-style projected Templates.
- Grav weapons.
- All of this stuff in the actual Adepta Sororitas army list instead of relying on Castellans.


Daemons:

 mrhappyface wrote:
PUT ALL THE UPDATES/SUPPLEMENTS INTO ONE SODDING BOOK!

Genestealer Cults:
- Genestealers 12pts each. They're not significantly more choppy or difficult to kill than Hybrids, there's no reason for them to cost what they do.
- Overhaul the Aberrants. Take away their second Wound, ditch Stubborn, drop them to Ld7, do whatever you have to to bring their cost down.
- Make the Seismic Cannons Salvo 2/3.


Space Wolves:
- Just redo the whole thing outside of TWC and Wulfen. Make it not suck ass.
- Grav weapons.
- If not Grav, then twin-linked Hellfrost.
- 13th Company army list revival.
- Let me bring my Leman Russ Exterminator again.


Inquisition:
- A return to the old Witch Hunters/ Daemonhunters-style books.
- Take all of Matt Ward's gak-ass changes to the Henchmen and just throw them right in the bin. Separate the Warriors and Acolytes again so I can have BS4 shooting.
- Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.


Eldar:
- ... I'll take a Coke with ice.

 BBAP wrote:
Sisters of Battle:
- Reliable long-range firepower.
- Mobility that isn't dependent on AV11-11-10 vehicles surviving five turns of fire from Scatbikes and Riptides. Bikes, Flyers, or Drop Pods maybe.
- Something that allows them to escape close combat without sacrificing their vehicles. Frateris Militia/ Zealots would be nice.
- Five Fast Attack slots.
- Bring back Saint Praxedes and Helena the Virtuous.
- Hellhound-style projected Templates.
- Grav weapons.
- All of this stuff in the actual Adepta Sororitas army list instead of relying on Castellans.


Daemons:

 mrhappyface wrote:
PUT ALL THE UPDATES/SUPPLEMENTS INTO ONE SODDING BOOK!

Genestealer Cults:
- Genestealers 12pts each. They're not significantly more choppy or difficult to kill than Hybrids, there's no reason for them to cost what they do.
- Overhaul the Aberrants. Take away their second Wound, ditch Stubborn, drop them to Ld7, do whatever you have to to bring their cost down.
- Make the Seismic Cannons Salvo 2/3.


Space Wolves:
- Just redo the whole thing outside of TWC and Wulfen. Make it not suck ass.
- Grav weapons.
- If not Grav, then twin-linked Hellfrost.
- 13th Company army list revival.
- Let me bring my Leman Russ Exterminator again.


Inquisition:
- A return to the old Witch Hunters/ Daemonhunters-style books.
- Take all of Matt Ward's gak-ass changes to the Henchmen and just throw them right in the bin. Separate the Warriors and Acolytes again so I can have BS4 shooting.
- Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.


Eldar:
- ... I'll take a Coke with ice.

As an eldar player I'd say: cost addecuately scatterbikes, warp spiders and wraithknights. Tweak a bit upwards wraithguard and d-cannons too, not too much though.

Done, all problems solved and we get a strong but reasonable codex.

Sisters:

- Complete relaunch with new plastic multipose miniatures.

- Celestians given back their WS4 and I4, given the option to be equipped for close combat as well as ranged.

- Acts of Faith more freely usable and not limited by unit.

- Exorcists given multiple firing modes including a skyfire mode, able to be put in to squadrons.

- Retributors given unique heavy weapons to choose.

- Canoness given jump packs again, better weapon choices, outfitted for both ranged and melee.

- New units, especially vehicles
-- A unit somewhere between predator and leman russ able to function as a light MBT. Its main weapon could easily be a blast melta weapon similar to the hellhound variant, for example, with 13/12/11 armor, able to be squadronized.
-- New assault transport for repentia, able to ram an enemy unit and deploy repentia in the same turn at the expense of permanently immobilizing the transport.
-- Repressors added back in as optional transport.
-- Heavy assault power armor (Sisters statline, +1s, +1wound, two attacks, power weapon and combat shield giving 5++ rerollable). Think heavily armored knights.
-- Sisters on bikes with power lances-- think jousting, but on big motorcycles. Yes it's ridiculous, but it also seems FUN, and so many people have forgotten that fun is important.
-- Anti-psyker squad, perhaps a remnant of the Sisters of Silence since a lot of people really want to link the two together.
-- Heavy sentinel unit, able to take twin-linked special weapons, an eviscerator, or a normal heavy weapon, with statline of an armored sentinel but with more hit points, able to be squadronized.
-- Ability to take a conscript-style unit led by a priest and call it frateris militia.

- Formations, formations, formations. Don't go light on the formations. Not asking for ridiculous bonuses... but rather, the ability to deploy armies in a wide variety of styles.

I could go on, but I don't feel like it. I already have two separate fandexes out there and Id on't feel like putting in the effort to make another one.

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters:

- Complete relaunch with new plastic multipose miniatures.

I haven't really played Sisters before, but I've been interested for a long time. I just haven't been able to deal with the cost. If there was new plastics I'd definitely pick them up.

 Melissia wrote:
- Acts of Faith more freely usable and not limited by unit.

I've only had a chance to quickly glance through the new codex, but it seemed like some of the Acts of Faith didn't jive well with some of the weapon choices of the units. Like, Dominion Squads got an ignore cover option, so why would they ever take flamers over meltas? Retributor squads got a shred option, so why would they ever take multi-meltas over heavy flamers? Maybe I just read that bit wrong.

 Melissia wrote:
---- Anti-psyker squad, perhaps a remnant of the Sisters of Silence since a lot of people really want to link the two together.

That would be cool. Do Sisters get any sort of bonus to Deny the Witch as it is? I don't remember seeing one, and it really seems like something they should have. Maybe I just missed it though.

 Melissia wrote:
-- Ability to take a conscript-style unit led by a priest and call it frateris militia.

That would be rad. Didn't they used to have a unit like this? They were called missionaries, or were lead by a missionary, or something like that?

I was actually thinking about allying in an IG cad just for the conscripts to model up as riled up regular Imperial citizens, but that would be a lot of extra points to spend on the regular IG squads and CCS. Way better to have the option within the regular SoB codex.

There's been a couple variations IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, sisters get Adamanitum Will and a 6++ invulnerable save at the moment. So... they sort of get DtW?

For dark eldar probably a better 'power from pain' system. Give grenades to incubi and allow incubi to do something with their masks (think banshee masks somewhat). Make phantasm grenades better (perhaps a leadership de-buff for a turn or pinning check on top of what it already does). More ways to handle gargantuan as right now Dark Eldar can't do that very well (poison wounds gargantuan on a 6 only). Make hellions and wych units not suck. Give us our named heroes back. Give us better AA. Make mandrakes a bit better (i tend to see nobody take them and they're not even our worst unit). Give us a decent bunch of formations if formations aren't taken away. Give us more ap 1 or ap 2 poisoned or fleshbane weapons. No reason why so many fleshbane and poisoned weapons dark eldar have don't avoid much armor much of the time. Make ravagers cheaper and maybe have more weapon options. Give covens a gargantuan creature for dark eldar to take. Give reavers more options. Reavers are insanely good for us but having more options of jetbike or types would be nice. Give us hq's on jetbikes already. Maybe some new wargear and some new weapons to handle our opponents with.

Dark Eldar:
expand the wargear list, substantially. Heck, even their 3rd edition book had more options (and better ones). Let them have the Jetbike as an option again.

Internal/external balance. Some units need slight points drops, most need massive point drops. (some times it's just the options, like Dark lances)

Make the Talos NOT suck

Vect coomes back as a Lord of War on a new pimped-out Dias.

Orks:
A better version of the 4th edition codex and an apology letter

 BBAP wrote:

Genestealer Cults:
- Genestealers 12pts each. They're not significantly more choppy or difficult to kill than Hybrids, there's no reason for them to cost what they do.

To be fair GSC Genestealers cost the same as Tyranid Genestealers and are better in every single way. I don't mind them at 15 points with a 5+ invuln and other buffs sprinkled in, especially in an army where they can potentially appear and assault from 6 inches away anywhere on the board and with a meta detachment that'll let you replenish their numbers a bit.

But I will state one thing for GSC...

Better Power Weapon options (i.e. not forcing us into picks or mauls - no other army has such an asinine restriction) and perhaps making the Mining Equipment Assault rather than Heavy.

Tau - more auxiliary races.

The reason I like Tau is that they are the only 'proper' science fiction race. Seeing some of the other xenos races would be cool.

Codex: Tyranids.

Make Tyranid Warriors T5.

Do something to make it the best codex for Monstrous Creature in the game. Standard Regeneration would work for me.

Change Instinctive Behavior rule to something, anything, better.

Oh, another one. Suspensor discs as an optional upgrade for marine heavy weapons. Even if just restricted to tactical squads, the ability to take a heavy weapon and not have it be a waste of points or a milestone around the squad's neck would be nice.

Melissia wrote:Also, sisters get Adamanitum Will and a 6++ invulnerable save at the moment. So... they sort of get DtW?

Against witchfires and maledictions they do. They can't stop Invisibility or Summons though. AW isn't bad, but it could be better.

DarkStarSabre wrote:To be fair GSC Genestealers cost the same as Tyranid Genestealers and are better in every single way. I don't mind them at 15 points with a 5+ invuln and other buffs sprinkled in, especially in an army where they can potentially appear and assault from 6 inches away anywhere on the board and with a meta detachment that'll let you replenish their numbers a bit.

They don't **need** it, 15pts is fine for what you get, and you can already run the army just fine with Hybrids everywhere. It would make the Genestealers more competitive with Hybrids though, because at the moment there's just no reason to ever take Purestrains when you can get more Acolytes, who do the same job, or Metamorphs, who have better S or I, for less points. T3 5+ isn't all that fragile when the opponent has no opportunity to shoot at it.

Better Power Weapon options (i.e. not forcing us into picks or mauls - no other army has such an asinine restriction) and perhaps making the Mining Equipment Assault rather than Heavy.

I don't think they need power weapons at all. 10 dudes throw out 40 Rending attacks on the charge; you'd need to lose 4 of those Rends to fit an S4 power weapon in, which I can't see any reason to do.

The Mining Gear is Neophyte-only; making it Salvo means you have to choose between using your Neophytes to shoot or tarpit, whereas with Assault there's no choice to make - you can shoot **and** tarpit. It'd need to cost, like, 40 points to reflect this huge increase in utility. Salvo gets them firing accurately from Ambush, which is all you really need to make the stuff worthwhile.

 BBAP wrote:

Melissia wrote:Also, sisters get Adamanitum Will and a 6++ invulnerable save at the moment. So... they sort of get DtW?

Against witchfires and maledictions they do. They can't stop Invisibility or Summons though. AW isn't bad, but it could be better...

Oh, that reminds me. Core rules update: ALL PSYKERS HAVE PSYCHIC HOODS. The ones that already had them in their rules have 18" psychic hoods instead of 12" psychic hoods.

Also the Necrons need the Pariah unit back. Or at least an item that creates a null aura (like the Culexis and the Sisters of Silence).

Tau need Kroot Shamans. Not sure what to do for pure Battle Sisters armies for defending against Blessings/Summoning, there's a lot to do with the Ordo Hereticus but some people get mad at me when I bring up 3e Order Militant fluff as a justification for designing the Sisters with the assumption that they work closely with the Inquisition on the table.

Just...let people interact with the psychic phase more generally, instead of the current state of affairs where the person with more dice gets to do whatever they want and the other person can't do anything about it.

Better core rules update: Psychic phase goes in the bin forever, the whole "psychic" nonsense gets dialled back to pre-6th Edition levels, where you have maybe 1 or 2 psykers per army and they cast powers in the appropriate phase by passing Ld. No Warp charges, no Deny The Witch gak (outside Psychic Hoods, which every factions gets to have), no more wizarding adventures in my sci-fi wargame. The Magic Phase ruined WHFB, and unless their intent is to make 40k suck as hard as possible I don't know why GW included it here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

And this is proof of why like 90% of you should not be posting in the Proposed Rules Forum. I don't think I'm the single greatest person ever but I'm sure as hell better than most of you.

Yes, I agree. It's why I actually started having an ignore list.

Grey Knights:

Give some form of anti-flying monsterous creature dreadnaught arms and/or dreadknight gear. We're supposed to counter demons, which includes the flying circus.

Lower prices on power armored grey Knights across the board.

Make banishment auto go off on a 2+ for all grey knight units.

Give all units access to melta and plasma.

Paladins need stat lines and rules more akin to custodians, or even better than custodians. The already cost more.

Lower the price for upgrades on dread Knights but raise the base price. No more unbound 10 dread knight list.

Assault out of deep strike as an upgrade. We need to be able to assault often to make up for the low model count. Crap shooting also amplifies this. Being able to assault quickly would fix this, and having it be from deep strike would allow for counter play.

Make our characters better

Make Draigo an HQ again.

Make psycanons assault, with two firing modes.

Allow grey Knights to know a power that makes all force weapons ap 2 at warp charge one.

Give us drop pods and storm shields, and buff power armored Knights to 2 attacks base, and terminators to 3.

Bring back psybolt ammo.

Grey Knights always at least deny powers cast by demons on a 5+

Grey Knights cannot peril while casting sanctic powers.

My goal is to make grey Knights good without them being stupid. I want the old op feel if you know what your doing and are skilled, but have them be reliant on choosing where and what to buff, and have mistakes at buffing be the death of them. They need tools to compensate for a Lack low ap shooting and low model count. TBH in their current incarnation most their units are unuseable because they're far too expensive to do their job well, so the army needs units that excel at their job and who can compensate for low model count with potency.

So you want to be able to assault from DS, with 2++ (sanctuary + SS) with 3 attacks base at AP2? Grey Knights have the capability in the psychic phase to pull all of that off, and not really being able to react to all that (and on more than 1 unit too) seems a bit unbalanced. The Skyhammer gets a lot of flak for what it does, and it's not nearly as good as that.

I say as a rule assault from DS is generally a bad path to go down, which is a problem for the Knights as their main problem is that they struggle at getting into charge distance, yet one of their perks is excelling at DS.

Also, since sororitas drop pods are an actual thing GW has made rules for on the past, let's add them back, and give them a large blast s4 ap5 ignores cover hit where they land.

 WarbossDakka wrote:
So you want to be able to assault from DS, with 2++ (sanctuary + SS) with 3 attacks base at AP2? Grey Knights have the capability in the psychic phase to pull all of that off, and not really being able to react to all that (and on more than 1 unit too) seems a bit unbalanced. The Skyhammer gets a lot of flak for what it does, and it's not nearly as good as that.

I say as a rule assault from DS is generally a bad path to go down, which is a problem for the Knights as their main problem is that they struggle at getting into charge distance, yet one of their perks is excelling at DS.

They suck at DS. They have no real quality shooting and can't charge from reserves so what happens is you eat a round of shooting 100% of the time and then get kited, and lose half your army, then the next turn you make 1/2 of your charges and then get tabled because in that one turn your opponent decided what will be able to be charged before shooting your squishy over costed units again on your turn (and grey Knights get beaten by anything with ap 2 on 2+ armor or init5). Also keep in mind that grey Knights have almost no tools to make sure they deep strike well without scatter (deep strike happens before shunt). Grey Knights also will ususally get about 20 warp dice at 2000 points give or take, and you'll need 12 of those to off three warp charge 1 powers reliably. To fully buff a unit like I payed out would not only take a lot of dice, but starve the rest of the pool.

Also 2+ invuln after psychic buffs is fine. I can already ally in custodians for 0 tax with shields, so why can't my paladins take storm shields? Base units also don't get sanctuary, you need a librarian, who then rolls well on powers. 2+ invulns aren't spooky when you can just easily shoot through a 2++ as you would a 2+ when using high rate of fire weapons.

Assault from deep strike should be a thing because without it grey Knights deep striking is garbage. It really is. Also note, I don't want assault from deep strike to be universal, I want it to be a benefit that only certain units can take, or a buff from being with a character or in a formation.

As a Tau player, about to commit heresy here.

Get rid of Supporting Fire.

Not because I think it's OP, though I agree with some shenanigans it's pretty brutal.

Get rid of it because it makes Tau players castle and gunline. It encourages unimaginative, passive play. It makes Tau boring as opponents.

I'd like to replace it with something akin to Darkstrider's retreat rule (though maybe not as good). This fits the Tau fluff about yielding ground to avoid excessive casualties quite well. But it also encourages the Tau player to move their units forward.

Maybe split it up a bit. Units that are too 'slow' to respond to an on rushing enemy (ie the Broadside or Stormsurge) keep Supporting Fire, but the more mobile units lean how to give ground.

Speaking of the Broadside, I'd love to either give it a move and shoot option (Relentless or Slow and Purposeful) or give it anchors like the Stormsurge.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Mandatory challenges gone - feel free to keep Champion of Chaos and the boon table but don't force us into challenges. Leave that an option - Risk = Reward. And don't factor that into our points.

But my Cultist Champion has a good feeling that he is take down that Company Master in single combat and ain't nothin' nobody is going to say is going to convince him otherwise. No seriously, I see what you are saying there and agree with almost all your ideas listed. Especially the one book thing and the Chaos Spawn/Demon "Boon" (I don't even have those models). I kinda of agree with the MC thing too. Those dinobots ain't vehicles.

I am just not so sure about Veterans of the Long War being free. I kinda see CSM encompassing marines that that fought during the Horus Hersey, disillusioned marines in the 10,000 years since, replacement initiates from chaos warp worlds and dudes that some how figured out how to implant gene seeds and survive. Not all of them really deserve the title, nor have the burning hate of the IoE. Although, renegade space marines are just going to use the vanilla codex or the one the player thinks fits their idea the best.

Of course, I also think VotLW should infer far more that Hatred. If these hombres have been surviving/fighting for 10,000 years (+/- the Warp), they should be some scary, not scared of anything, combat monsters. Maybe if it was called something else with the same game mechanics I would be more agreeable to it. I could see CSM studying and practicing methods that would work quite well specifically against IoM's strategy and tactics.

One complaint I have with Black Legion rules is VotLW once being mandatory and now pretty much free. The Black Legion is a big tent. While it probably does have the largest number of vets from the Horus Hersey, it probably has the most brand new Chaos Space Marines too. The Black Legion really only has the one rule, bend a knee and serve the Warmaster. I am probably too much of a fluffy player though.

VotLW doesn't mean that a CSM was there during the Heresy, the timeline in the CSM codex is litteraly called '' the Long War '' it is described as something that '' raged on for ten thousands years ''. You could be a vet from it even if you fell to Chaos 50 years before the '' now '' of 40k. Furthermore, Huron has VotLW, and he was never in the Heresy.

necrons: make them not incredibly boring to play. a LoW C'tan would be cool. Give them a lascannon equivalent, make res orbs useful. some added relics possibly?

DE: Added survivability, possible stack of FnP above 4+? a covens LoW or vect would be great, make all the units you dont see usable (mandrakes, hellions, beastmasters, wyches, etc.) some "special" poison for gargants... I mean c'mon we're the lords of poison. Being able to move a venom or raider 12" then assault out of it would be great

Eldar: general points hike in a lot of areas, make the aspects better, specifically the striking scorpions and banshees

Space Marines:

Buff the following:

Predator Autocannons
Boltguns
Missile Launchers
Heavy Bolters
Lascannons
Terminators
Stormbolters
Whirlwinds

Nerf the following:

Gladius Strike Force
Grav
Centurions
Bikes

And seriously redesign the Land Raider. The unit is a confused mess.

As a tau player I'd like to see better melee options for our army. Either give kroot their extra attack back, buff vespid, or something else. I mostly play against my brothers orcs and even one or two orc boys will wipe entire squads due to sweeping advance. This massive imbalance between shooting/melee I think is one of the biggest reasons people hate playing against Tau. When playing I have to be very careful about positioning because if anything gets a little to close you are dead and there is nothing you can do about it. If we were to have a decent melee option that would change a lot of the dynamic.

Another thing I'd like to see is a better way of handling heavy armor. With the HRR nerf there arent many options for dealing with AV 14, and now I'm forced to take OSC formations that simply ignore the AV 14. Using OSC's feel diryt though as you can relatively simply bypass battlewagons because they are now just expensive trucks. Either give the HRR lance, making them better versus only high AV, or make hammerheads more viable.

Personally I dont have a problem with supporting fire, its effectiveness is massively overestimated in most normal circumstances and for me it rarely really makes a difference unless I get really really lucky rolls.

WIth a decent melee option (other than just speedbumping bodies to stall assaults a turn) some changes can be made to the shooting effectiveness of our armies. Range reduction on the ion accelerator for riptides and maybe some point tweaks and returning marker lights to -1 cover per token. I have to admit that in my own experiences the shooting power of my lists is not that impressive mostly, other than ion accelerators sometimes being devastating on lucky rolls. Then again I dont use some of the more OP combinations that are available and try to play more diverse lists.

What I'd like most of all is our army feeling less coin flippy. If my first shooting turn is good I usually steamroll the game, otoh if my first turn isnt as good, meaning my opponent can close the distance and you fold in cc. Or critical units simply run off the board because a single drone.. I would like to be able to create lists that can still function when taking losses, orcs just have to get that single nob with a powerclaw into cc and they are good, but once we start losing units our effectiveness drops so much that it hard to keep going (this also goes to the inherent imbalance between shooting/melee effectiveness, shooting does not have a sweeping advance mechanic which makes melee potentially so much more devastating in a single turn)

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Mandatory challenges gone - feel free to keep Champion of Chaos and the boon table but don't force us into challenges. Leave that an option - Risk = Reward. And don't factor that into our points.

But my Cultist Champion has a good feeling that he is take down that Company Master in single combat and ain't nothin' nobody is going to say is going to convince him otherwise. No seriously, I see what you are saying there and agree with almost all your ideas listed. Especially the one book thing and the Chaos Spawn/Demon "Boon" (I don't even have those models). I kinda of agree with the MC thing too. Those dinobots ain't vehicles.

I am just not so sure about Veterans of the Long War being free. I kinda see CSM encompassing marines that that fought during the Horus Hersey, disillusioned marines in the 10,000 years since, replacement initiates from chaos warp worlds and dudes that some how figured out how to implant gene seeds and survive. Not all of them really deserve the title, nor have the burning hate of the IoE. Although, renegade space marines are just going to use the vanilla codex or the one the player thinks fits their idea the best.

Of course, I also think VotLW should infer far more that Hatred. If these hombres have been surviving/fighting for 10,000 years (+/- the Warp), they should be some scary, not scared of anything, combat monsters. Maybe if it was called something else with the same game mechanics I would be more agreeable to it. I could see CSM studying and practicing methods that would work quite well specifically against IoM's strategy and tactics.

One complaint I have with Black Legion rules is VotLW once being mandatory and now pretty much free. The Black Legion is a big tent. While it probably does have the largest number of vets from the Horus Hersey, it probably has the most brand new Chaos Space Marines too. The Black Legion really only has the one rule, bend a knee and serve the Warmaster. I am probably too much of a fluffy player though.

VotLW is just a crappily worded Chaos equivalent of ATSKNF.

It's an army special rule. Just as Battle Focus is for Eldar, just as Power from Pain is for DE.

It just happens to be a crappily worded one.

Does it literally mean '10,000 years old?' No. Not really. Huron has it and he sure as hell doesn't meet those criteria.

Really, it doesn't serve to penalise CSM based on shoddy naming. Hell, we shouldn't have been paying points for it in the first place. Can you imagine the Imperial gakstorm if the next SM Codex made them pay x points per model for ATSKNF?

The Space Marine gakstorm, I wouldn't bat an eyelid, personally.

A few for Imperial Guard that I wouldn't mind seeing.

Formations: A few that don't require 100+ models. It would be nice to see some smaller 'combat sections'.

Heavy Weapon Teams drop in price.

Heavy Vehicles across the board should have a Saving Throw of some sort. 5+ for Glances, 6+ for Pens? But something to make them a bit more durable in the current meta. And bring back Lumbering Behemoth.

Bobthehero wrote:VotLW doesn't mean that a CSM was there during the Heresy, the timeline in the CSM codex is litteraly called '' the Long War '' it is described as something that '' raged on for ten thousands years ''. You could be a vet from it even if you fell to Chaos 50 years before the '' now '' of 40k. Furthermore, Huron has VotLW, and he was never in the Heresy.

You are right. It really doesn't mean pre-warp days marine. However, It does always seem to give the impression that these are the really old Chaos Space Marines to me. Ones that have at least been part of a couple of the previous Black Crusades. They don't have to be though.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Mandatory challenges gone - feel free to keep Champion of Chaos and the boon table but don't force us into challenges. Leave that an option - Risk = Reward. And don't factor that into our points.

But my Cultist Champion has a good feeling that he is take down that Company Master in single combat and ain't nothin' nobody is going to say is going to convince him otherwise. No seriously, I see what you are saying there and agree with almost all your ideas listed. Especially the one book thing and the Chaos Spawn/Demon "Boon" (I don't even have those models). I kinda of agree with the MC thing too. Those dinobots ain't vehicles.

I am just not so sure about Veterans of the Long War being free. I kinda see CSM encompassing marines that that fought during the Horus Hersey, disillusioned marines in the 10,000 years since, replacement initiates from chaos warp worlds and dudes that some how figured out how to implant gene seeds and survive. Not all of them really deserve the title, nor have the burning hate of the IoE. Although, renegade space marines are just going to use the vanilla codex or the one the player thinks fits their idea the best.

Of course, I also think VotLW should infer far more that Hatred. If these hombres have been surviving/fighting for 10,000 years (+/- the Warp), they should be some scary, not scared of anything, combat monsters. Maybe if it was called something else with the same game mechanics I would be more agreeable to it. I could see CSM studying and practicing methods that would work quite well specifically against IoM's strategy and tactics.

One complaint I have with Black Legion rules is VotLW once being mandatory and now pretty much free. The Black Legion is a big tent. While it probably does have the largest number of vets from the Horus Hersey, it probably has the most brand new Chaos Space Marines too. The Black Legion really only has the one rule, bend a knee and serve the Warmaster. I am probably too much of a fluffy player though.

VotLW is just a crappily worded Chaos equivalent of ATSKNF.

It's an army special rule. Just as Battle Focus is for Eldar, just as Power from Pain is for DE.

It just happens to be a crappily worded one.

Does it literally mean '10,000 years old?' No. Not really. Huron has it and he sure as hell doesn't meet those criteria.

Really, it doesn't serve to penalise CSM based on shoddy naming. Hell, we shouldn't have been paying points for it in the first place.

No, you are right. I kinda think that Feel No Pain and Invulnerability are completely backwards compared to their mechanics too. So it is not exactly alone on that list of special abilities that don't quite fit to me. So bad naming conventions aside and given how the writers wanted to do things, VOTLW should have been rolled into the base special abilities. But chances are the codex writer would have just made units more expensive from having it hiding the cost and preventing the option. At least finally now it is free.

DarkStarSabre wrote:Can you imagine the Imperial gakstorm if the next SM Codex made them pay x points per model for ATSKNF?

I can, but I started from from other games that don't handout awesome stuff for free because it will sell more models. However, you are probably right as their seems to be a large group 40k players that think having an army list with all the best OP stuff makes them a good player. Honestly, I think ATSKNF and Fearless should be cut way, way back, or else maybe get rid of the morale system and just apply negative special abilities to the few factions that still do have to worry about it. I mean there gets point where more stuff is pretty much immune to stuff that isn't it is probably better to make it the default and point out the stuff that still can be affected.

I could see paying an slightly-not-worth-it amount points for ATSKNF actually be a good compromise. You want to cut out that part of the rules to worry about you got pay premium for that. Otherwise, welcome to the suck of failing regroup tests, being stricken with Fear effects and possibility being the victim of a Sweeping Advance. But you are right. Chances are the tantrum from that change would open up a second eye of terror from SM players.

Updates that I'd rather see than GW's current trends:

CSM - Deletion. It'd be better than how GW usually handles this.

Imperial Gourd - LRBT rebalancing, special rules for IG infantry that make them actuallu useful. Also formatoins for Tank Companies, Infantry Companies, and Baneblade Escorts.

Eldar: +105 pts per wraithknight, tone down some of the silly-as-gak combos, 1 weapon upgrade for every three windriders. A formation that includes the avatar of khaine would be nice.

C:SM: Less of the constant additions please. Seriously, they have more and more powerful psychic powers than Eldar and Tzeentch forces, more troopers than the Orks, more tanks than the Guard...

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
At least finally now it is free.

Free. HAH.

Free provided you adhere to restrictions as set in Traitor Legions. I feel bad for anyone who's not running one of the Legions.

And that's the different. ATSKNF and the various Chapter Tactics have -no- restrictions to them. They do not dictate how you build your army whereas the majority of Traitor Legions does by either forcing you to take Marks or preventing you from doing so.

Honestly, I think ATSKNF and Fearless should be cut way, way back, or else maybe get rid of the morale system and just apply negative special abilities to the few factions that still do have to worry about it. I mean there gets point where more stuff is pretty much immune to stuff that isn't it is probably better to make it the default and point out the stuff that still can be affected.

I could see paying an slightly-not-worth-it amount points for ATSKNF actually be a good compromise. You want to cut out that part of the rules to worry about you got pay premium for that. Otherwise, welcome to the suck of failing regroup tests, being stricken with Fear effects and possibility being the victim of a Sweeping Advance. But you are right. Chances are the tantrum from that change would open up a second eye of terror from SM players.

This I actually agree with. Fear is a terrible USR. Utterly worthless. The only armies I've seen it affect are low WS anyway so it's basically doing nothing. If anything I sort of feel that Fear needs to to be far more drastic - dropping to WS 1 means nothing when the unit is already WS 2-3 against the WS 5+ fear causer in the first place. If anything it maybe benefits Spawn and Carnifexes. But my god it's sad watching Tau fail a Fear test against a Hive Tyrant for no effect. Perhaps if failing Fear resulted in only hitting on 6s or perhaps if Fear could force auto-breaks as it used to in Fantasy...

But as it stands there's far too many ways to ignore Fear. Ork Mob sizes, Commisars, Stubborn Ld 10 bubbles, Fearless bubbles....and those units that tend to fail it are WS 2-3 non-combat wonders already.

It's made more apparent by the fact that the whole Psychology angle of Fear and Terror was a Chaos and Tyranid thing from 2nd ed onward. These are the armies that are meant to be scary. And they're the ones floundering because Assault is in the gutter, their MCs are horrendously overpointed and they've not really had any advancement beyond the standard gimmick 1-2 units with release compared to their counterparts.

But then 40k need a lot of love at the moment.

CSM:
Merge the daemons and CSM books so we can field daemons alongside marines, but give options to get buffs if you take only daemons or only CSM.
Get rid of forced challenges (to be honest, I hate challenges altogether and house rule it out)
Change the boon table so that it's tiered, meaning that you can't get apotheosis on the first go, and your chance of becoming a DP increases the more times you roll on the table (or the more wounds you caused that turn).
Make daemon engines MCs.
Have more kinds of cultists, such as conscripts, pit slaves etc, so the variety of cultist conversions can be reflected in the rules.
Put basilisks back in for the Iron Warriors.
Have a couple of generic daemon entries such as "daemon infantry" and "daemonic beasts" so people can go wild with conversions. I know GW has this policy of only having rules if models exist, but that sucks for Chaos. Chaos should be absolutely mental, with gibbering hordes of random daemons and mutants littered around the place.
Related to that, I would like to see more paintings and special characters described in the fluff parts of the book that don't have unit entries or models, so experienced modellers can try and create models for them.
Reintroduce the 'lieutenant' category of HQ (maybe call it 'champion of chaos').

berserkers buffed

they killing power isnt outstanding against anything with an armor save and they are no longer durable (it used to be better because you could hve a PFIST champ but now they will get challenged and defeated, this is good for balance but leaves the unit lacking)

the badass lore description for them in the codex says they can fight on through wounds that would kill most, but they no longer have any rule to reflect this. once upon a time feel no pain was khorne berserker exclusive? they no longer get it outside of tithes and other units have it way stronger.

NightWinds5121 wrote:
berserkers buffed

they killing power isnt outstanding against anything with an armor save and they are no longer durable (it used to be better because you could hve a PFIST champ but now they will get challenged and defeated, this is good for balance but leaves the unit lacking)

the badass lore description for them in the codex says they can fight on through wounds that would kill most, but they no longer have any rule to reflect this. once upon a time feel no pain was khorne berserker exclusive? they no longer get it outside of tithes and other units have it way stronger.

To be honest, all cult units deserve FnP: Bezerkers get so angry that they ignore everything else until they can rip the heads off of the people who've shot them, Noise Marines can't feel pain unless it is in excess and even the they love it, Plague Marines' nerve endings have decayed away so they can't feel most things and TS are litterally dust in a suit how can they feel pain!?

 mrhappyface wrote:

To be honest, all cult units deserve FnP: Bezerkers get so angry that they ignore everything else until they can rip the heads off of the people who've shot them, Noise Marines can't feel pain unless it is in excess and even the they love it, Plague Marines' nerve endings have decayed away so they can't feel most things and TS are litterally dust in a suit how can they feel pain!?

Good point! And I love the quote in your sig. That quote was one of the best things about the whole Grey Knights omnibus!


And on topic again...
One problem with the codex system is that it is quite inpenetrable to the newcomer. Opening a book where every unit has multiple options and upgrades and so on is quite daunting. However, for the experienced person, all that complexity is fascinating and inspiring and leads to varied armies, both rules-wise and looks-wise, so I wouldn't want to remove it from the codex. This is also why a warscroll system scares me a little...
A solution to this conundrum could be to have a "beginner's section" in each codex that has the rules to allow you to field the start collecting box (or whatever is most suitable). It's 500 pts or thereabouts (standardised across codices) and only has one or two options that are really clear and simple (e.g. Do you want to put a power weapon on your seargeant? A power weapon cuts through the armour of heretics! If so, remove one of the marines so the points cost remains the same). It would be a couple of pages long, so wouldn't take up much of the book, but would allow someone to field their initial army straightaway, and learn the rest of the codex while they were playing with them. It could even say 'if you wish to expand your army, use the detailed entries later in the book and add the total points cost to your 500pts'. This would be great for children and newbies and even experienced gamers who have never played that army before!

To have unit types and mixing to reflect the fluff.
To have the unit points value reflect it's capability.
I have many of "your codex" s so it would be a win all around.

 Talizvar wrote:
To have unit types and mixing to reflect the fluff.
To have the unit points value reflect it's capability.
I have many of "your codex" s so it would be a win all around.

You make it sound so simple!

 corpuschain wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
To have unit types and mixing to reflect the fluff.
To have the unit points value reflect it's capability.
I have many of "your codex" s so it would be a win all around.

You make it sound so simple!

When one asks "What would the perfect update for your codex be?", a certain suspension of reality is being demanded.
Plus, root cause of what is preventing "perfection" is in the BRB so I am being a bit dishonest all in the name of humor!

 corpuschain wrote:

Good point! And I love the quote in your sig. That quote was one of the best things about the whole Grey Knights omnibus!

It is a truely shining quote and one of the best monologs in the entire fluff, about neck and neck with Angron's speach to Girlyman on Courage and Honour.

Get rid of forced challenges (to be honest, I hate challenges altogether and house rule it out)

I purposively forget this rule (and the boon table) because it does nothing but slow the game down. Sure it could help me, but I just don't care.