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VotLW doesn't mean that a CSM was there during the Heresy, the timeline in the CSM codex is litteraly called '' the Long War '' it is described as something that '' raged on for ten thousands years ''. You could be a vet from it even if you fell to Chaos 50 years before the '' now '' of 40k. Furthermore, Huron has VotLW, and he was never in the Heresy.

necrons: make them not incredibly boring to play. a LoW C'tan would be cool. Give them a lascannon equivalent, make res orbs useful. some added relics possibly?

DE: Added survivability, possible stack of FnP above 4+? a covens LoW or vect would be great, make all the units you dont see usable (mandrakes, hellions, beastmasters, wyches, etc.) some "special" poison for gargants... I mean c'mon we're the lords of poison. Being able to move a venom or raider 12" then assault out of it would be great

Eldar: general points hike in a lot of areas, make the aspects better, specifically the striking scorpions and banshees

Space Marines:

Buff the following:

Predator Autocannons
Boltguns
Missile Launchers
Heavy Bolters
Lascannons
Terminators
Stormbolters
Whirlwinds

Nerf the following:

Gladius Strike Force
Grav
Centurions
Bikes

And seriously redesign the Land Raider. The unit is a confused mess.

As a tau player I'd like to see better melee options for our army. Either give kroot their extra attack back, buff vespid, or something else. I mostly play against my brothers orcs and even one or two orc boys will wipe entire squads due to sweeping advance. This massive imbalance between shooting/melee I think is one of the biggest reasons people hate playing against Tau. When playing I have to be very careful about positioning because if anything gets a little to close you are dead and there is nothing you can do about it. If we were to have a decent melee option that would change a lot of the dynamic.

Another thing I'd like to see is a better way of handling heavy armor. With the HRR nerf there arent many options for dealing with AV 14, and now I'm forced to take OSC formations that simply ignore the AV 14. Using OSC's feel diryt though as you can relatively simply bypass battlewagons because they are now just expensive trucks. Either give the HRR lance, making them better versus only high AV, or make hammerheads more viable.

Personally I dont have a problem with supporting fire, its effectiveness is massively overestimated in most normal circumstances and for me it rarely really makes a difference unless I get really really lucky rolls.

WIth a decent melee option (other than just speedbumping bodies to stall assaults a turn) some changes can be made to the shooting effectiveness of our armies. Range reduction on the ion accelerator for riptides and maybe some point tweaks and returning marker lights to -1 cover per token. I have to admit that in my own experiences the shooting power of my lists is not that impressive mostly, other than ion accelerators sometimes being devastating on lucky rolls. Then again I dont use some of the more OP combinations that are available and try to play more diverse lists.

What I'd like most of all is our army feeling less coin flippy. If my first shooting turn is good I usually steamroll the game, otoh if my first turn isnt as good, meaning my opponent can close the distance and you fold in cc. Or critical units simply run off the board because a single drone.. I would like to be able to create lists that can still function when taking losses, orcs just have to get that single nob with a powerclaw into cc and they are good, but once we start losing units our effectiveness drops so much that it hard to keep going (this also goes to the inherent imbalance between shooting/melee effectiveness, shooting does not have a sweeping advance mechanic which makes melee potentially so much more devastating in a single turn)

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Mandatory challenges gone - feel free to keep Champion of Chaos and the boon table but don't force us into challenges. Leave that an option - Risk = Reward. And don't factor that into our points.

But my Cultist Champion has a good feeling that he is take down that Company Master in single combat and ain't nothin' nobody is going to say is going to convince him otherwise. No seriously, I see what you are saying there and agree with almost all your ideas listed. Especially the one book thing and the Chaos Spawn/Demon "Boon" (I don't even have those models). I kinda of agree with the MC thing too. Those dinobots ain't vehicles.

I am just not so sure about Veterans of the Long War being free. I kinda see CSM encompassing marines that that fought during the Horus Hersey, disillusioned marines in the 10,000 years since, replacement initiates from chaos warp worlds and dudes that some how figured out how to implant gene seeds and survive. Not all of them really deserve the title, nor have the burning hate of the IoE. Although, renegade space marines are just going to use the vanilla codex or the one the player thinks fits their idea the best.

Of course, I also think VotLW should infer far more that Hatred. If these hombres have been surviving/fighting for 10,000 years (+/- the Warp), they should be some scary, not scared of anything, combat monsters. Maybe if it was called something else with the same game mechanics I would be more agreeable to it. I could see CSM studying and practicing methods that would work quite well specifically against IoM's strategy and tactics.

One complaint I have with Black Legion rules is VotLW once being mandatory and now pretty much free. The Black Legion is a big tent. While it probably does have the largest number of vets from the Horus Hersey, it probably has the most brand new Chaos Space Marines too. The Black Legion really only has the one rule, bend a knee and serve the Warmaster. I am probably too much of a fluffy player though.

VotLW is just a crappily worded Chaos equivalent of ATSKNF.

It's an army special rule. Just as Battle Focus is for Eldar, just as Power from Pain is for DE.

It just happens to be a crappily worded one.

Does it literally mean '10,000 years old?' No. Not really. Huron has it and he sure as hell doesn't meet those criteria.

Really, it doesn't serve to penalise CSM based on shoddy naming. Hell, we shouldn't have been paying points for it in the first place. Can you imagine the Imperial gakstorm if the next SM Codex made them pay x points per model for ATSKNF?

The Space Marine gakstorm, I wouldn't bat an eyelid, personally.

A few for Imperial Guard that I wouldn't mind seeing.

Formations: A few that don't require 100+ models. It would be nice to see some smaller 'combat sections'.

Heavy Weapon Teams drop in price.

Heavy Vehicles across the board should have a Saving Throw of some sort. 5+ for Glances, 6+ for Pens? But something to make them a bit more durable in the current meta. And bring back Lumbering Behemoth.

Bobthehero wrote:VotLW doesn't mean that a CSM was there during the Heresy, the timeline in the CSM codex is litteraly called '' the Long War '' it is described as something that '' raged on for ten thousands years ''. You could be a vet from it even if you fell to Chaos 50 years before the '' now '' of 40k. Furthermore, Huron has VotLW, and he was never in the Heresy.

You are right. It really doesn't mean pre-warp days marine. However, It does always seem to give the impression that these are the really old Chaos Space Marines to me. Ones that have at least been part of a couple of the previous Black Crusades. They don't have to be though.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Mandatory challenges gone - feel free to keep Champion of Chaos and the boon table but don't force us into challenges. Leave that an option - Risk = Reward. And don't factor that into our points.

But my Cultist Champion has a good feeling that he is take down that Company Master in single combat and ain't nothin' nobody is going to say is going to convince him otherwise. No seriously, I see what you are saying there and agree with almost all your ideas listed. Especially the one book thing and the Chaos Spawn/Demon "Boon" (I don't even have those models). I kinda of agree with the MC thing too. Those dinobots ain't vehicles.

I am just not so sure about Veterans of the Long War being free. I kinda see CSM encompassing marines that that fought during the Horus Hersey, disillusioned marines in the 10,000 years since, replacement initiates from chaos warp worlds and dudes that some how figured out how to implant gene seeds and survive. Not all of them really deserve the title, nor have the burning hate of the IoE. Although, renegade space marines are just going to use the vanilla codex or the one the player thinks fits their idea the best.

Of course, I also think VotLW should infer far more that Hatred. If these hombres have been surviving/fighting for 10,000 years (+/- the Warp), they should be some scary, not scared of anything, combat monsters. Maybe if it was called something else with the same game mechanics I would be more agreeable to it. I could see CSM studying and practicing methods that would work quite well specifically against IoM's strategy and tactics.

One complaint I have with Black Legion rules is VotLW once being mandatory and now pretty much free. The Black Legion is a big tent. While it probably does have the largest number of vets from the Horus Hersey, it probably has the most brand new Chaos Space Marines too. The Black Legion really only has the one rule, bend a knee and serve the Warmaster. I am probably too much of a fluffy player though.

VotLW is just a crappily worded Chaos equivalent of ATSKNF.

It's an army special rule. Just as Battle Focus is for Eldar, just as Power from Pain is for DE.

It just happens to be a crappily worded one.

Does it literally mean '10,000 years old?' No. Not really. Huron has it and he sure as hell doesn't meet those criteria.

Really, it doesn't serve to penalise CSM based on shoddy naming. Hell, we shouldn't have been paying points for it in the first place.

No, you are right. I kinda think that Feel No Pain and Invulnerability are completely backwards compared to their mechanics too. So it is not exactly alone on that list of special abilities that don't quite fit to me. So bad naming conventions aside and given how the writers wanted to do things, VOTLW should have been rolled into the base special abilities. But chances are the codex writer would have just made units more expensive from having it hiding the cost and preventing the option. At least finally now it is free.

DarkStarSabre wrote:Can you imagine the Imperial gakstorm if the next SM Codex made them pay x points per model for ATSKNF?

I can, but I started from from other games that don't handout awesome stuff for free because it will sell more models. However, you are probably right as their seems to be a large group 40k players that think having an army list with all the best OP stuff makes them a good player. Honestly, I think ATSKNF and Fearless should be cut way, way back, or else maybe get rid of the morale system and just apply negative special abilities to the few factions that still do have to worry about it. I mean there gets point where more stuff is pretty much immune to stuff that isn't it is probably better to make it the default and point out the stuff that still can be affected.

I could see paying an slightly-not-worth-it amount points for ATSKNF actually be a good compromise. You want to cut out that part of the rules to worry about you got pay premium for that. Otherwise, welcome to the suck of failing regroup tests, being stricken with Fear effects and possibility being the victim of a Sweeping Advance. But you are right. Chances are the tantrum from that change would open up a second eye of terror from SM players.

Updates that I'd rather see than GW's current trends:

CSM - Deletion. It'd be better than how GW usually handles this.

Imperial Gourd - LRBT rebalancing, special rules for IG infantry that make them actuallu useful. Also formatoins for Tank Companies, Infantry Companies, and Baneblade Escorts.

Eldar: +105 pts per wraithknight, tone down some of the silly-as-gak combos, 1 weapon upgrade for every three windriders. A formation that includes the avatar of khaine would be nice.

C:SM: Less of the constant additions please. Seriously, they have more and more powerful psychic powers than Eldar and Tzeentch forces, more troopers than the Orks, more tanks than the Guard...

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
At least finally now it is free.

Free. HAH.

Free provided you adhere to restrictions as set in Traitor Legions. I feel bad for anyone who's not running one of the Legions.

And that's the different. ATSKNF and the various Chapter Tactics have -no- restrictions to them. They do not dictate how you build your army whereas the majority of Traitor Legions does by either forcing you to take Marks or preventing you from doing so.

Honestly, I think ATSKNF and Fearless should be cut way, way back, or else maybe get rid of the morale system and just apply negative special abilities to the few factions that still do have to worry about it. I mean there gets point where more stuff is pretty much immune to stuff that isn't it is probably better to make it the default and point out the stuff that still can be affected.

I could see paying an slightly-not-worth-it amount points for ATSKNF actually be a good compromise. You want to cut out that part of the rules to worry about you got pay premium for that. Otherwise, welcome to the suck of failing regroup tests, being stricken with Fear effects and possibility being the victim of a Sweeping Advance. But you are right. Chances are the tantrum from that change would open up a second eye of terror from SM players.

This I actually agree with. Fear is a terrible USR. Utterly worthless. The only armies I've seen it affect are low WS anyway so it's basically doing nothing. If anything I sort of feel that Fear needs to to be far more drastic - dropping to WS 1 means nothing when the unit is already WS 2-3 against the WS 5+ fear causer in the first place. If anything it maybe benefits Spawn and Carnifexes. But my god it's sad watching Tau fail a Fear test against a Hive Tyrant for no effect. Perhaps if failing Fear resulted in only hitting on 6s or perhaps if Fear could force auto-breaks as it used to in Fantasy...

But as it stands there's far too many ways to ignore Fear. Ork Mob sizes, Commisars, Stubborn Ld 10 bubbles, Fearless bubbles....and those units that tend to fail it are WS 2-3 non-combat wonders already.

It's made more apparent by the fact that the whole Psychology angle of Fear and Terror was a Chaos and Tyranid thing from 2nd ed onward. These are the armies that are meant to be scary. And they're the ones floundering because Assault is in the gutter, their MCs are horrendously overpointed and they've not really had any advancement beyond the standard gimmick 1-2 units with release compared to their counterparts.

But then 40k need a lot of love at the moment.

CSM:
Merge the daemons and CSM books so we can field daemons alongside marines, but give options to get buffs if you take only daemons or only CSM.
Get rid of forced challenges (to be honest, I hate challenges altogether and house rule it out)
Change the boon table so that it's tiered, meaning that you can't get apotheosis on the first go, and your chance of becoming a DP increases the more times you roll on the table (or the more wounds you caused that turn).
Make daemon engines MCs.
Have more kinds of cultists, such as conscripts, pit slaves etc, so the variety of cultist conversions can be reflected in the rules.
Put basilisks back in for the Iron Warriors.
Have a couple of generic daemon entries such as "daemon infantry" and "daemonic beasts" so people can go wild with conversions. I know GW has this policy of only having rules if models exist, but that sucks for Chaos. Chaos should be absolutely mental, with gibbering hordes of random daemons and mutants littered around the place.
Related to that, I would like to see more paintings and special characters described in the fluff parts of the book that don't have unit entries or models, so experienced modellers can try and create models for them.
Reintroduce the 'lieutenant' category of HQ (maybe call it 'champion of chaos').

berserkers buffed

they killing power isnt outstanding against anything with an armor save and they are no longer durable (it used to be better because you could hve a PFIST champ but now they will get challenged and defeated, this is good for balance but leaves the unit lacking)

the badass lore description for them in the codex says they can fight on through wounds that would kill most, but they no longer have any rule to reflect this. once upon a time feel no pain was khorne berserker exclusive? they no longer get it outside of tithes and other units have it way stronger.

NightWinds5121 wrote:
berserkers buffed

they killing power isnt outstanding against anything with an armor save and they are no longer durable (it used to be better because you could hve a PFIST champ but now they will get challenged and defeated, this is good for balance but leaves the unit lacking)

the badass lore description for them in the codex says they can fight on through wounds that would kill most, but they no longer have any rule to reflect this. once upon a time feel no pain was khorne berserker exclusive? they no longer get it outside of tithes and other units have it way stronger.

To be honest, all cult units deserve FnP: Bezerkers get so angry that they ignore everything else until they can rip the heads off of the people who've shot them, Noise Marines can't feel pain unless it is in excess and even the they love it, Plague Marines' nerve endings have decayed away so they can't feel most things and TS are litterally dust in a suit how can they feel pain!?

 mrhappyface wrote:

To be honest, all cult units deserve FnP: Bezerkers get so angry that they ignore everything else until they can rip the heads off of the people who've shot them, Noise Marines can't feel pain unless it is in excess and even the they love it, Plague Marines' nerve endings have decayed away so they can't feel most things and TS are litterally dust in a suit how can they feel pain!?

Good point! And I love the quote in your sig. That quote was one of the best things about the whole Grey Knights omnibus!


And on topic again...
One problem with the codex system is that it is quite inpenetrable to the newcomer. Opening a book where every unit has multiple options and upgrades and so on is quite daunting. However, for the experienced person, all that complexity is fascinating and inspiring and leads to varied armies, both rules-wise and looks-wise, so I wouldn't want to remove it from the codex. This is also why a warscroll system scares me a little...
A solution to this conundrum could be to have a "beginner's section" in each codex that has the rules to allow you to field the start collecting box (or whatever is most suitable). It's 500 pts or thereabouts (standardised across codices) and only has one or two options that are really clear and simple (e.g. Do you want to put a power weapon on your seargeant? A power weapon cuts through the armour of heretics! If so, remove one of the marines so the points cost remains the same). It would be a couple of pages long, so wouldn't take up much of the book, but would allow someone to field their initial army straightaway, and learn the rest of the codex while they were playing with them. It could even say 'if you wish to expand your army, use the detailed entries later in the book and add the total points cost to your 500pts'. This would be great for children and newbies and even experienced gamers who have never played that army before!

To have unit types and mixing to reflect the fluff.
To have the unit points value reflect it's capability.
I have many of "your codex" s so it would be a win all around.

 Talizvar wrote:
To have unit types and mixing to reflect the fluff.
To have the unit points value reflect it's capability.
I have many of "your codex" s so it would be a win all around.

You make it sound so simple!

 corpuschain wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
To have unit types and mixing to reflect the fluff.
To have the unit points value reflect it's capability.
I have many of "your codex" s so it would be a win all around.

You make it sound so simple!

When one asks "What would the perfect update for your codex be?", a certain suspension of reality is being demanded.
Plus, root cause of what is preventing "perfection" is in the BRB so I am being a bit dishonest all in the name of humor!

 corpuschain wrote:

Good point! And I love the quote in your sig. That quote was one of the best things about the whole Grey Knights omnibus!

It is a truely shining quote and one of the best monologs in the entire fluff, about neck and neck with Angron's speach to Girlyman on Courage and Honour.

Get rid of forced challenges (to be honest, I hate challenges altogether and house rule it out)

I purposively forget this rule (and the boon table) because it does nothing but slow the game down. Sure it could help me, but I just don't care.