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Let assault marines take bolters, and tactical marines upgrade bolters to stormbolters.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I would be fine with that as long as their units stay intact. Basically, combine them the way Black Templars did.

Maybe for some of them, but not all. If BA players want access to vanilla marine stuff, vanilla marines get access to their stuff. No more of this "oh, you'd like some assault cannons on your predator, to bad, only us special snowflake marines get that" stuff.

andysonic1 wrote:Termies need love but you're going a little overboard. An extra wound would solve a lot of problems but they should stay toughness 4 or they'll get out of control. Not everyone has access to lots of strength 10 you know.

You do know you can kill a model without IDing it, right?

SM:

Get rid of the free transports for Full Battle Company. It's not fluffy and it irritates me no end.

Force me as Ultramarines to field tactical squads as full 10 man units. I do it anyway and I would retain the ability to combat squad but following the Codex Astartes I should only ever operate with less than 10 man squads if casualties necessitate it.

On top of that I'd allow raven guard chapter tactics to allow 3 and 4 man vanguard teams as I've read this is more than common.

More Chapter specific rules like that would better represent the forces I read about on the tabletop.

Plus I'd say give Terminators a better standard invul or an extra wound and stop making my landraiders imobilise themselves on a bush, it's ridiculous.

Finally I'd happily say buy to Centurions. They filled the gap my Terminators were meant to fill by introducing a new model which never previously existed, rather than just fixing one of the most iconic units in the game. Well done GW on that one.

Pr3Mu5 wrote:SM:
Get rid of the free transports for Full Battle Company. It's not fluffy and it irritates me no end.

While I agree it should go (to stop everyone from whining about it to no end if for no other reasons) I don't see how having BCs deploy with a full complement of Rhinos/Razorbacks is not in agreement with the fluff.

 Battlegrinder wrote:
Let assault marines take bolters, and tactical marines upgrade bolters to stormbolters.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I would be fine with that as long as their units stay intact. Basically, combine them the way Black Templars did.

Maybe for some of them, but not all. If BA players want access to vanilla marine stuff, vanilla marines get access to their stuff. No more of this "oh, you'd like some assault cannons on your predator, to bad, only us special snowflake marines get that" stuff.

andysonic1 wrote:Termies need love but you're going a little overboard. An extra wound would solve a lot of problems but they should stay toughness 4 or they'll get out of control. Not everyone has access to lots of strength 10 you know.

You do know you can kill a model without IDing it, right?

Not to mention that the time of their merging the Black Templars only had about 3 unique entries in their entire book, if you don't count a rose by another name.
Blood Angels on the other hand have like 15 unique entries atleast.
Their only hope to get merged would be existing as a supplement, and having to pay for 2 full books just to field my collection would be a serious kick in the teeth.

Eldar:
-"Troop" Windriders go back to 1 per 3 models special weapon. The plastic kit will still be 100% viable now that Black Guardian Windriders exist and are an Elite choice that can upgrade all weapons -Add in all the Black Guardian choices

-ALL DISTORTION WEAPONS ARE -1 TO THE D-TABLE. Scythes are an additional -1
-Wraithguard are 35ppm and can mix Cannons or Scythes for Free. So you could have a single unit of 5 with 2 D-scythes and 3 Wratihcannons.
-Wraith Blades can mix weapons options as well.

-WK goes up to 350pts and come with shoulder weapons standard, all options swap for free. Keep in mind that the Wraithcannon version can no longer 1-shot a large target thanks to -1 D.

-Combine the Storm Guardian and Guardian Defenders formation. They are literally the same formation, just make it 3 units of either kind of Guardian
-Combine the Dire Avenger Host and Aspect Host. They are almost the same thing. Just make the Aspect host require 1 Dire Avenger unit + 2 of any kind of Aspect (including more Dires if you want). It might be good to include an Autarch in this Foramtion as a further "tax" that is fluffy.
-Drop all the "snowflake" rules that the Aspect have, i.e Assured Destruction, Flickerjump, Intercept, etc.
Only their wargear should be granting them rules. Exarch should grant rules like Tank Hunter (for Fire Dragons) or Hit & Run (for Spears) etc

Dark Eldar:
-Archons & Succubi can take Reaver jetbikes
-Haywire Blasters & Heatlances are available to all units that can also take Dark Lances, Blasters and Splinter cannons.
-Trueborn & Sslyth come standard with Ghostplate armour
-Ravagers can move 12" and fire all 3 weapons. Dark lances are a free swarp for Ravagers and Raiders.

-

 mrhappyface wrote:
PUT ALL THE UPDATES/SUPPLEMENTS INTO ONE SODDING BOOK!

THIS.

CSM ideal wants

-A single book approach - not 2 Codexes, 3 Campaign Supplements (one of which is a WHW exclusive), 2 Codex Supplements, an IA book and 2-3 dataslates
-VotLW is free and standard across the board.
-Unit points dropped across the board - especially for the cult units. At the moment Khorne Berserkers are so horrendously overpointed it's not even funny - it's cheaper to take CHOSEN with the Traitor Legions World Eater rules and they're generally more effective.
-Mandatory challenges gone - feel free to keep Champion of Chaos and the boon table but don't force us into challenges. Leave that an option - Risk = Reward. And don't factor that into our points. The amount of times that I've gotten +1 initiative on a model with Unwieldy is unreal. Also - make the Daemon Prince an option rather than mandatory. Champions can refuse to ascend. And I really don't feel like lugging extra daemon princes 'just in case' or losing otherwise viable units because of a random dice roll.
-Dedication system for vehicles ala IA 13.
-Daemon Engines have WS and BS 4 - seriously, we're not imbuing fething Nurglings into the things.
-Dreadnoughts - not just gakky Helbrutes. Give me the Ferrus Infernum in my codex. (Our Venerable equivalent).
-Seriously, points cost reductions.
-Allow for 10+ squads of CSM to have more than the standard 2 special or 1 heavy/1 special. Perhaps 1 special per 5, 1 heavy per 10.
-Heresy era weaponry - since you don't see fit to give us Grav or Multimeltas give us Volkite at the very least. And seriously, give us Multimeltas and Plasma Cannons too.
-Heresy era units - for some reason CSM forgot how to use their whirlwinds, drop pods, land speeders, jet bikes and more - why?

Now you want something crazy that will make every Imperial, Tau and Eldar player screech like an animal?

Make all the Daemon engines into MCs/GCs. Add in LoW units that are viable and don't cost 888+ points.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Now you want something crazy that will make every Imperial, Tau and Eldar player screech like an animal?

Make all the Daemon engines into MCs/GCs. Add in LoW units that are viable and don't cost 888+ points.

Why would we screech? Daemon Engines deserve MC/GC rules as much or more than 'tides/'keels/'surges, dreadknights, and 'lords/'knights.

Eldar:
Remove the huge amounts of StrD
No more full squads of Scatterbikes (I liked the 1-in-3 rule of the old Codex)
More reason to take some of the less competitive Aspect Warriors outside of the Aspect Host (Make Howling Banshees great again!)
Make the Wraithknight about 100pts more expensive.

Blood Angels:
Honestly not too much I'd change since the FAQ giving us all the SM buffs (WS/BS4 Scouts etc.)
Maybe access to some more of the vanilla SM formations?

Imperial Fists:
I'd appreciate some updated sculpts, but rules-wise I'm good.

Skitarii:
Can we please have our own transport?
Please


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Now you want something crazy that will make every Imperial, Tau and Eldar player screech like an animal?

Make all the Daemon engines into MCs/GCs. Add in LoW units that are viable and don't cost 888+ points.

Why would we screech? Daemon Engines deserve MC/GC rules as much or more than 'tides/'keels/'surges, dreadknights, and 'lords/'knights.

Seconded here, it makes way more sense. And even if it would make them harder to kill I think they deserve it because they're badass.

Except for maybe the Heldrake.

Sisters of Battle:
- Reliable long-range firepower.
- Mobility that isn't dependent on AV11-11-10 vehicles surviving five turns of fire from Scatbikes and Riptides. Bikes, Flyers, or Drop Pods maybe.
- Something that allows them to escape close combat without sacrificing their vehicles. Frateris Militia/ Zealots would be nice.
- Five Fast Attack slots.
- Bring back Saint Praxedes and Helena the Virtuous.
- Hellhound-style projected Templates.
- Grav weapons.
- All of this stuff in the actual Adepta Sororitas army list instead of relying on Castellans.


Daemons:

 mrhappyface wrote:
PUT ALL THE UPDATES/SUPPLEMENTS INTO ONE SODDING BOOK!

Genestealer Cults:
- Genestealers 12pts each. They're not significantly more choppy or difficult to kill than Hybrids, there's no reason for them to cost what they do.
- Overhaul the Aberrants. Take away their second Wound, ditch Stubborn, drop them to Ld7, do whatever you have to to bring their cost down.
- Make the Seismic Cannons Salvo 2/3.


Space Wolves:
- Just redo the whole thing outside of TWC and Wulfen. Make it not suck ass.
- Grav weapons.
- If not Grav, then twin-linked Hellfrost.
- 13th Company army list revival.
- Let me bring my Leman Russ Exterminator again.


Inquisition:
- A return to the old Witch Hunters/ Daemonhunters-style books.
- Take all of Matt Ward's gak-ass changes to the Henchmen and just throw them right in the bin. Separate the Warriors and Acolytes again so I can have BS4 shooting.
- Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.


Eldar:
- ... I'll take a Coke with ice.

 BBAP wrote:
Sisters of Battle:
- Reliable long-range firepower.
- Mobility that isn't dependent on AV11-11-10 vehicles surviving five turns of fire from Scatbikes and Riptides. Bikes, Flyers, or Drop Pods maybe.
- Something that allows them to escape close combat without sacrificing their vehicles. Frateris Militia/ Zealots would be nice.
- Five Fast Attack slots.
- Bring back Saint Praxedes and Helena the Virtuous.
- Hellhound-style projected Templates.
- Grav weapons.
- All of this stuff in the actual Adepta Sororitas army list instead of relying on Castellans.


Daemons:

 mrhappyface wrote:
PUT ALL THE UPDATES/SUPPLEMENTS INTO ONE SODDING BOOK!

Genestealer Cults:
- Genestealers 12pts each. They're not significantly more choppy or difficult to kill than Hybrids, there's no reason for them to cost what they do.
- Overhaul the Aberrants. Take away their second Wound, ditch Stubborn, drop them to Ld7, do whatever you have to to bring their cost down.
- Make the Seismic Cannons Salvo 2/3.


Space Wolves:
- Just redo the whole thing outside of TWC and Wulfen. Make it not suck ass.
- Grav weapons.
- If not Grav, then twin-linked Hellfrost.
- 13th Company army list revival.
- Let me bring my Leman Russ Exterminator again.


Inquisition:
- A return to the old Witch Hunters/ Daemonhunters-style books.
- Take all of Matt Ward's gak-ass changes to the Henchmen and just throw them right in the bin. Separate the Warriors and Acolytes again so I can have BS4 shooting.
- Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.


Eldar:
- ... I'll take a Coke with ice.

As an eldar player I'd say: cost addecuately scatterbikes, warp spiders and wraithknights. Tweak a bit upwards wraithguard and d-cannons too, not too much though.

Done, all problems solved and we get a strong but reasonable codex.

Sisters:

- Complete relaunch with new plastic multipose miniatures.

- Celestians given back their WS4 and I4, given the option to be equipped for close combat as well as ranged.

- Acts of Faith more freely usable and not limited by unit.

- Exorcists given multiple firing modes including a skyfire mode, able to be put in to squadrons.

- Retributors given unique heavy weapons to choose.

- Canoness given jump packs again, better weapon choices, outfitted for both ranged and melee.

- New units, especially vehicles
-- A unit somewhere between predator and leman russ able to function as a light MBT. Its main weapon could easily be a blast melta weapon similar to the hellhound variant, for example, with 13/12/11 armor, able to be squadronized.
-- New assault transport for repentia, able to ram an enemy unit and deploy repentia in the same turn at the expense of permanently immobilizing the transport.
-- Repressors added back in as optional transport.
-- Heavy assault power armor (Sisters statline, +1s, +1wound, two attacks, power weapon and combat shield giving 5++ rerollable). Think heavily armored knights.
-- Sisters on bikes with power lances-- think jousting, but on big motorcycles. Yes it's ridiculous, but it also seems FUN, and so many people have forgotten that fun is important.
-- Anti-psyker squad, perhaps a remnant of the Sisters of Silence since a lot of people really want to link the two together.
-- Heavy sentinel unit, able to take twin-linked special weapons, an eviscerator, or a normal heavy weapon, with statline of an armored sentinel but with more hit points, able to be squadronized.
-- Ability to take a conscript-style unit led by a priest and call it frateris militia.

- Formations, formations, formations. Don't go light on the formations. Not asking for ridiculous bonuses... but rather, the ability to deploy armies in a wide variety of styles.

I could go on, but I don't feel like it. I already have two separate fandexes out there and Id on't feel like putting in the effort to make another one.

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters:

- Complete relaunch with new plastic multipose miniatures.

I haven't really played Sisters before, but I've been interested for a long time. I just haven't been able to deal with the cost. If there was new plastics I'd definitely pick them up.

 Melissia wrote:
- Acts of Faith more freely usable and not limited by unit.

I've only had a chance to quickly glance through the new codex, but it seemed like some of the Acts of Faith didn't jive well with some of the weapon choices of the units. Like, Dominion Squads got an ignore cover option, so why would they ever take flamers over meltas? Retributor squads got a shred option, so why would they ever take multi-meltas over heavy flamers? Maybe I just read that bit wrong.

 Melissia wrote:
---- Anti-psyker squad, perhaps a remnant of the Sisters of Silence since a lot of people really want to link the two together.

That would be cool. Do Sisters get any sort of bonus to Deny the Witch as it is? I don't remember seeing one, and it really seems like something they should have. Maybe I just missed it though.

 Melissia wrote:
-- Ability to take a conscript-style unit led by a priest and call it frateris militia.

That would be rad. Didn't they used to have a unit like this? They were called missionaries, or were lead by a missionary, or something like that?

I was actually thinking about allying in an IG cad just for the conscripts to model up as riled up regular Imperial citizens, but that would be a lot of extra points to spend on the regular IG squads and CCS. Way better to have the option within the regular SoB codex.

There's been a couple variations IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, sisters get Adamanitum Will and a 6++ invulnerable save at the moment. So... they sort of get DtW?

For dark eldar probably a better 'power from pain' system. Give grenades to incubi and allow incubi to do something with their masks (think banshee masks somewhat). Make phantasm grenades better (perhaps a leadership de-buff for a turn or pinning check on top of what it already does). More ways to handle gargantuan as right now Dark Eldar can't do that very well (poison wounds gargantuan on a 6 only). Make hellions and wych units not suck. Give us our named heroes back. Give us better AA. Make mandrakes a bit better (i tend to see nobody take them and they're not even our worst unit). Give us a decent bunch of formations if formations aren't taken away. Give us more ap 1 or ap 2 poisoned or fleshbane weapons. No reason why so many fleshbane and poisoned weapons dark eldar have don't avoid much armor much of the time. Make ravagers cheaper and maybe have more weapon options. Give covens a gargantuan creature for dark eldar to take. Give reavers more options. Reavers are insanely good for us but having more options of jetbike or types would be nice. Give us hq's on jetbikes already. Maybe some new wargear and some new weapons to handle our opponents with.

Dark Eldar:
expand the wargear list, substantially. Heck, even their 3rd edition book had more options (and better ones). Let them have the Jetbike as an option again.

Internal/external balance. Some units need slight points drops, most need massive point drops. (some times it's just the options, like Dark lances)

Make the Talos NOT suck

Vect coomes back as a Lord of War on a new pimped-out Dias.

Orks:
A better version of the 4th edition codex and an apology letter

 BBAP wrote:

Genestealer Cults:
- Genestealers 12pts each. They're not significantly more choppy or difficult to kill than Hybrids, there's no reason for them to cost what they do.

To be fair GSC Genestealers cost the same as Tyranid Genestealers and are better in every single way. I don't mind them at 15 points with a 5+ invuln and other buffs sprinkled in, especially in an army where they can potentially appear and assault from 6 inches away anywhere on the board and with a meta detachment that'll let you replenish their numbers a bit.

But I will state one thing for GSC...

Better Power Weapon options (i.e. not forcing us into picks or mauls - no other army has such an asinine restriction) and perhaps making the Mining Equipment Assault rather than Heavy.

Tau - more auxiliary races.

The reason I like Tau is that they are the only 'proper' science fiction race. Seeing some of the other xenos races would be cool.

Codex: Tyranids.

Make Tyranid Warriors T5.

Do something to make it the best codex for Monstrous Creature in the game. Standard Regeneration would work for me.

Change Instinctive Behavior rule to something, anything, better.

Oh, another one. Suspensor discs as an optional upgrade for marine heavy weapons. Even if just restricted to tactical squads, the ability to take a heavy weapon and not have it be a waste of points or a milestone around the squad's neck would be nice.

Melissia wrote:Also, sisters get Adamanitum Will and a 6++ invulnerable save at the moment. So... they sort of get DtW?

Against witchfires and maledictions they do. They can't stop Invisibility or Summons though. AW isn't bad, but it could be better.

DarkStarSabre wrote:To be fair GSC Genestealers cost the same as Tyranid Genestealers and are better in every single way. I don't mind them at 15 points with a 5+ invuln and other buffs sprinkled in, especially in an army where they can potentially appear and assault from 6 inches away anywhere on the board and with a meta detachment that'll let you replenish their numbers a bit.

They don't **need** it, 15pts is fine for what you get, and you can already run the army just fine with Hybrids everywhere. It would make the Genestealers more competitive with Hybrids though, because at the moment there's just no reason to ever take Purestrains when you can get more Acolytes, who do the same job, or Metamorphs, who have better S or I, for less points. T3 5+ isn't all that fragile when the opponent has no opportunity to shoot at it.

Better Power Weapon options (i.e. not forcing us into picks or mauls - no other army has such an asinine restriction) and perhaps making the Mining Equipment Assault rather than Heavy.

I don't think they need power weapons at all. 10 dudes throw out 40 Rending attacks on the charge; you'd need to lose 4 of those Rends to fit an S4 power weapon in, which I can't see any reason to do.

The Mining Gear is Neophyte-only; making it Salvo means you have to choose between using your Neophytes to shoot or tarpit, whereas with Assault there's no choice to make - you can shoot **and** tarpit. It'd need to cost, like, 40 points to reflect this huge increase in utility. Salvo gets them firing accurately from Ambush, which is all you really need to make the stuff worthwhile.

 BBAP wrote:

Melissia wrote:Also, sisters get Adamanitum Will and a 6++ invulnerable save at the moment. So... they sort of get DtW?

Against witchfires and maledictions they do. They can't stop Invisibility or Summons though. AW isn't bad, but it could be better...

Oh, that reminds me. Core rules update: ALL PSYKERS HAVE PSYCHIC HOODS. The ones that already had them in their rules have 18" psychic hoods instead of 12" psychic hoods.

Also the Necrons need the Pariah unit back. Or at least an item that creates a null aura (like the Culexis and the Sisters of Silence).

Tau need Kroot Shamans. Not sure what to do for pure Battle Sisters armies for defending against Blessings/Summoning, there's a lot to do with the Ordo Hereticus but some people get mad at me when I bring up 3e Order Militant fluff as a justification for designing the Sisters with the assumption that they work closely with the Inquisition on the table.

Just...let people interact with the psychic phase more generally, instead of the current state of affairs where the person with more dice gets to do whatever they want and the other person can't do anything about it.

Better core rules update: Psychic phase goes in the bin forever, the whole "psychic" nonsense gets dialled back to pre-6th Edition levels, where you have maybe 1 or 2 psykers per army and they cast powers in the appropriate phase by passing Ld. No Warp charges, no Deny The Witch gak (outside Psychic Hoods, which every factions gets to have), no more wizarding adventures in my sci-fi wargame. The Magic Phase ruined WHFB, and unless their intent is to make 40k suck as hard as possible I don't know why GW included it here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
modern razorback spam lists pay 55 points for their razorbacks and get 5 marines for 15 points.

And this is proof of why like 90% of you should not be posting in the Proposed Rules Forum. I don't think I'm the single greatest person ever but I'm sure as hell better than most of you.

Yes, I agree. It's why I actually started having an ignore list.

Grey Knights:

Give some form of anti-flying monsterous creature dreadnaught arms and/or dreadknight gear. We're supposed to counter demons, which includes the flying circus.

Lower prices on power armored grey Knights across the board.

Make banishment auto go off on a 2+ for all grey knight units.

Give all units access to melta and plasma.

Paladins need stat lines and rules more akin to custodians, or even better than custodians. The already cost more.

Lower the price for upgrades on dread Knights but raise the base price. No more unbound 10 dread knight list.

Assault out of deep strike as an upgrade. We need to be able to assault often to make up for the low model count. Crap shooting also amplifies this. Being able to assault quickly would fix this, and having it be from deep strike would allow for counter play.

Make our characters better

Make Draigo an HQ again.

Make psycanons assault, with two firing modes.

Allow grey Knights to know a power that makes all force weapons ap 2 at warp charge one.

Give us drop pods and storm shields, and buff power armored Knights to 2 attacks base, and terminators to 3.

Bring back psybolt ammo.

Grey Knights always at least deny powers cast by demons on a 5+

Grey Knights cannot peril while casting sanctic powers.

My goal is to make grey Knights good without them being stupid. I want the old op feel if you know what your doing and are skilled, but have them be reliant on choosing where and what to buff, and have mistakes at buffing be the death of them. They need tools to compensate for a Lack low ap shooting and low model count. TBH in their current incarnation most their units are unuseable because they're far too expensive to do their job well, so the army needs units that excel at their job and who can compensate for low model count with potency.

So you want to be able to assault from DS, with 2++ (sanctuary + SS) with 3 attacks base at AP2? Grey Knights have the capability in the psychic phase to pull all of that off, and not really being able to react to all that (and on more than 1 unit too) seems a bit unbalanced. The Skyhammer gets a lot of flak for what it does, and it's not nearly as good as that.

I say as a rule assault from DS is generally a bad path to go down, which is a problem for the Knights as their main problem is that they struggle at getting into charge distance, yet one of their perks is excelling at DS.

Also, since sororitas drop pods are an actual thing GW has made rules for on the past, let's add them back, and give them a large blast s4 ap5 ignores cover hit where they land.

 WarbossDakka wrote:
So you want to be able to assault from DS, with 2++ (sanctuary + SS) with 3 attacks base at AP2? Grey Knights have the capability in the psychic phase to pull all of that off, and not really being able to react to all that (and on more than 1 unit too) seems a bit unbalanced. The Skyhammer gets a lot of flak for what it does, and it's not nearly as good as that.

I say as a rule assault from DS is generally a bad path to go down, which is a problem for the Knights as their main problem is that they struggle at getting into charge distance, yet one of their perks is excelling at DS.

They suck at DS. They have no real quality shooting and can't charge from reserves so what happens is you eat a round of shooting 100% of the time and then get kited, and lose half your army, then the next turn you make 1/2 of your charges and then get tabled because in that one turn your opponent decided what will be able to be charged before shooting your squishy over costed units again on your turn (and grey Knights get beaten by anything with ap 2 on 2+ armor or init5). Also keep in mind that grey Knights have almost no tools to make sure they deep strike well without scatter (deep strike happens before shunt). Grey Knights also will ususally get about 20 warp dice at 2000 points give or take, and you'll need 12 of those to off three warp charge 1 powers reliably. To fully buff a unit like I payed out would not only take a lot of dice, but starve the rest of the pool.

Also 2+ invuln after psychic buffs is fine. I can already ally in custodians for 0 tax with shields, so why can't my paladins take storm shields? Base units also don't get sanctuary, you need a librarian, who then rolls well on powers. 2+ invulns aren't spooky when you can just easily shoot through a 2++ as you would a 2+ when using high rate of fire weapons.

Assault from deep strike should be a thing because without it grey Knights deep striking is garbage. It really is. Also note, I don't want assault from deep strike to be universal, I want it to be a benefit that only certain units can take, or a buff from being with a character or in a formation.

As a Tau player, about to commit heresy here.

Get rid of Supporting Fire.

Not because I think it's OP, though I agree with some shenanigans it's pretty brutal.

Get rid of it because it makes Tau players castle and gunline. It encourages unimaginative, passive play. It makes Tau boring as opponents.

I'd like to replace it with something akin to Darkstrider's retreat rule (though maybe not as good). This fits the Tau fluff about yielding ground to avoid excessive casualties quite well. But it also encourages the Tau player to move their units forward.

Maybe split it up a bit. Units that are too 'slow' to respond to an on rushing enemy (ie the Broadside or Stormsurge) keep Supporting Fire, but the more mobile units lean how to give ground.

Speaking of the Broadside, I'd love to either give it a move and shoot option (Relentless or Slow and Purposeful) or give it anchors like the Stormsurge.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Mandatory challenges gone - feel free to keep Champion of Chaos and the boon table but don't force us into challenges. Leave that an option - Risk = Reward. And don't factor that into our points.

But my Cultist Champion has a good feeling that he is take down that Company Master in single combat and ain't nothin' nobody is going to say is going to convince him otherwise. No seriously, I see what you are saying there and agree with almost all your ideas listed. Especially the one book thing and the Chaos Spawn/Demon "Boon" (I don't even have those models). I kinda of agree with the MC thing too. Those dinobots ain't vehicles.

I am just not so sure about Veterans of the Long War being free. I kinda see CSM encompassing marines that that fought during the Horus Hersey, disillusioned marines in the 10,000 years since, replacement initiates from chaos warp worlds and dudes that some how figured out how to implant gene seeds and survive. Not all of them really deserve the title, nor have the burning hate of the IoE. Although, renegade space marines are just going to use the vanilla codex or the one the player thinks fits their idea the best.

Of course, I also think VotLW should infer far more that Hatred. If these hombres have been surviving/fighting for 10,000 years (+/- the Warp), they should be some scary, not scared of anything, combat monsters. Maybe if it was called something else with the same game mechanics I would be more agreeable to it. I could see CSM studying and practicing methods that would work quite well specifically against IoM's strategy and tactics.

One complaint I have with Black Legion rules is VotLW once being mandatory and now pretty much free. The Black Legion is a big tent. While it probably does have the largest number of vets from the Horus Hersey, it probably has the most brand new Chaos Space Marines too. The Black Legion really only has the one rule, bend a knee and serve the Warmaster. I am probably too much of a fluffy player though.