Let's say Guilliman returns and is horrified at what the imperium has become in 10,000 years since the golden age of humanity and the great crusade. Guilliman demands he uproot the ecclaisiary, revamp almost every level of bureaucracy, and disband the high lords with a semi-elected system, form an non-aggression treaty and sensible foreign policy with certain Xenos with mutual common enemies (like Eldar) against Chaos, make the imperium more humane, etc.

The high lords are horrified and immediately declare him a traitor and a heretic and sends the inquisition, assassins, and sisters to kill him. Ultramarines, Creed, and Cypher side with Guilliman while Saint Celestine sides with the high lords and all hell breaks out just as Abandon approaches Earth with his black fleet. Meaning the IoM is completely utterly fethed with civil war and chaos encroaching and the high lords on Terra doing anything they can to hold on to their power. Imperial Guard is split evenly... brother against brother... space marine chapters who dislike the ultramarines side with High Lords or some chapters declare independence to form their own pockets.

Would you side with the Fascist, Xenophobic High Lords of Terra that's protected/saved IoM for 10,000 years? Or the Primarch who returned and wants to change everything to save the Imperium from perpetual decline into superstition, Xenophobia, and oppression.

Why would Celestine side with the High Lords?

She's part of the reason that Guilliman's back. The leaked WD pages have her thanking the flipping Emperor for giving the Imperium Guilliman back.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would Celestine side with the High Lords?

She's part of the reason that Guilliman's back. The leaked WD pages have her thanking the flipping Emperor for giving the Imperium Guilliman back.

Duty... to her sisters and she's part of the inquisition that directly takes their orders from the eclaissarchy

DorianGray wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would Celestine side with the High Lords?

She's part of the reason that Guilliman's back. The leaked WD pages have her thanking the flipping Emperor for giving the Imperium Guilliman back.

Duty... to her sisters and she's part of the inquisition that directly takes their orders from the eclaissarchy

Greyfax is an Inquisitor.
Sororitas are not part of the Inquisition. They're part of the Ecclesiarchy and serve as a Chamber Militant for the Ordo Hereticus; but they are separate from the Inquisition itself.

 Kanluwen wrote:

DorianGray wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would Celestine side with the High Lords?

She's part of the reason that Guilliman's back. The leaked WD pages have her thanking the flipping Emperor for giving the Imperium Guilliman back.

Duty... to her sisters and she's part of the inquisition that directly takes their orders from the eclaissarchy

Greyfax is an Inquisitor.
Sororitas are not part of the Inquisition. They're part of the Ecclesiarchy and serve as a Chamber Militant for the Ordo Hereticus; but they are separate from the Inquisition itself.

Ok fine. But who would you side with?

Depends on who he can rally around him. Guilliman seriously pissed off the non-Codex legions like DA, BA, and Space Wolves, but if he can rally them against the High Lords, than the High Lords have no chance. If it's just Guilliman, a couple allies, and the Ultramarines against the rest of the Imperium, then things get pretty dicey for him.

The xenos win. or chaos.

Everyone in the IoM looses.

If I go by my factions fluff.

Krieg nearly blew up their planet to stay loyal, so the 5th goes with the HLoTs.

The leadership of the 85th does not have a high opinion of SM to begin with, so they'd probably stick with the HLoT, too.

Why would Guilliman be more peaceful ? More humane ?
He was a leader during the Great Crusade: one of the most, if no THE most, xenophobic thing mankind ever did.
The goal was litteraly to kill every other intelligent specie.
And why would he be more "humane" ? The IoM isn't grimdark because it is fun, but because it can't be otherwise.
You can't give people holidays and free time and expect them to make as many ammo as now, and free time will make them ever more corrupted by Chaos.

DorianGray wrote:
Let's say Guilliman returns and is horrified at what the imperium has become in 10,000 years since the golden age of humanity and the great crusade. Guilliman demands he uproot the ecclaisiary, revamp almost every level of bureaucracy, and disband the high lords with a semi-elected system, form an non-aggression treaty and sensible foreign policy with certain Xenos with mutual common enemies (like Eldar) against Chaos, make the imperium more humane, etc.
.

What makes you think guillimann is eldar friendly? Aliens were shoot 'em up even in gc.

 godardc wrote:
Why would Guilliman be more peaceful ? More humane ?
He was a leader during the Great Crusade: one of the most, if no THE most, xenophobic thing mankind ever did.
The goal was litteraly to kill every other intelligent specie.
And why would he be more "humane" ? The IoM isn't grimdark because it is fun, but because it can't be otherwise.
You can't give people holidays and free time and expect them to make as many ammo as now, and free time will make them ever more corrupted by Chaos.

The goal wasn't to kill every other intelligent specie, the goal was to unite humanity under one common banner and free them from "tyranny". Hell, Horus even meets another species above the planet Murder and things are fine until the misunderstanding where Erebus steals the sword. Most of the aliens they destroy were already hostile to begin with (Orks) or refused negotiations.

Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

The big thing is the High Lords have had thousands of years to doctrinate the Imperium. Declaring Guilliman as corrupted and being tainted by Chaos could really turn the zealots against him.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

The big thing is the High Lords have had thousands of years to doctrinate the Imperium. Declaring Guilliman as corrupted and being tainted by Chaos could really turn the zealots against him.

A claim of corruption that can be directly countered by the fact he is traveling with Celestine, a Black Templar Marshall and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

The big thing is the High Lords have had thousands of years to doctrinate the Imperium. Declaring Guilliman as corrupted and being tainted by Chaos could really turn the zealots against him.

A claim of corruption that can be directly countered by the fact he is traveling with Celestine, a Black Templar Marshall and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Dude you just signed your own death warrant. The inquisition will come pay a visit soon. By order of the High Lords.

The High Lords will order the Grey Knights to exterminate Guilliman AND Celestine as traitors.

Is the question which side would I want to win in the story or which side do I believe is right using my real life beliefs and morals?

I enjoy the primary human faction being a bunch of xenophobic, superstitious zealots using extremely powerful technology that they don't understand and lorded over by a corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy. I also like the idea that the Imperium of Man is so terribly awful because that is what is needed for the survival of the species.

I think the reason I enjoy this so much is that I have the exact opposite beliefs when it comes to the real world. I'm a techno-optimist who doesn't like superstition and thinks that we can and should all get along and things are probably going to turn out great. This makes the horrible dystopia of the 40k universe really appealing to me for some reason.

So I don't know whether or not Guilliman will come back talking about how The Emperor is not a god and we need to start cutting red tape and working with the Tau. If he does, hopefully there will be a civil war and he'll get squashed. Maybe he'll be too busy trying to solve the Horus and Tyranids problem and will do his best not to rile the High Lords or the Ecclesiarchy until he's got those settled. Heck, maybe he's going to come back saying that in his long absence he's seen visions of The Emperor ascending to godhood and he'll be such a fanatic that he puts the Black Templars to shame.

I hope Warhammer 40,000 remains a place where nice, reasonable people get eaten.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

The big thing is the High Lords have had thousands of years to doctrinate the Imperium. Declaring Guilliman as corrupted and being tainted by Chaos could really turn the zealots against him.

A claim of corruption that can be directly countered by the fact he is traveling with Celestine, a Black Templar Marshall and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

4 people versus ten thousand years of propaganda? Don't get me wrong, he's still a Primarch, but that's a tough toss up.

They aren't really just 3 people and a Primarch though, its a Living Saint, a Marshall from a Chapter known to be rather Puritanical and a Grey Knight.

Thats not something many people of note in the Imperium would discount because the High Lords told them too, even with Propaganda. Because Guilliman will have been apart of that 10,000 years of High Lord propaganda, and now the Lords are countermanding that? Questions would be raised.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They aren't really just 3 people and a Primarch though, its a Living Saint, a Marshall from a Chapter known to be rather Puritanical and a Grey Knight.

Thats not something many people of note in the Imperium would discount because the High Lords told them too, even with Propaganda. Because Guilliman will have been apart of that 10,000 years of High Lord propaganda, and now the Lords are countermanding that? Questions would be raised.

Why? They could argue it's a Daemon masquerading as Guilliman and co. Hell, one of Tzeentch's guys did just that to the Dark Angels by masquerading as Azrael.

Depends
YES the Imperium is Wrong in Worshipping the Emperor as a God, but i dont see the Custodes Complaining

As stated before, just because he is Travelling with Celestine, a Black Templar Marshall AND a Grand Master of the Grey Knights does not mean "He is/is not Corrupted" due to it would be a stance of Opinion (Gulliman wants it to be the old way how father wanted it but everyone else wants it to be as it always has been for 10k years)

I smell a 40k Civil war between Gulliman and the Religious sect of the Imperium
(But i would totally side with the Imperium in this one, or do i?, am i Alpharius?)

 jreilly89 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They aren't really just 3 people and a Primarch though, its a Living Saint, a Marshall from a Chapter known to be rather Puritanical and a Grey Knight.

Thats not something many people of note in the Imperium would discount because the High Lords told them too, even with Propaganda. Because Guilliman will have been apart of that 10,000 years of High Lord propaganda, and now the Lords are countermanding that? Questions would be raised.

Why? They could argue it's a Daemon masquerading as Guilliman and co. Hell, one of Tzeentch's guys did just that to the Dark Angels by masquerading as Azrael.

A masquerade that was seen through and ended when the Grey Knights were close enough. Again, Living Saint and Grey Knight, it will be hard to argue him being a daemon. And even harder for people who have heard for 10k years from the Imperium that Guilliman is The Savior of the Imperium to believe.

People are missing the question.

WHO WOULD YOU SIDE WITH?

What version of the Imperium do you want to see?

I would side with Guilliman.

...Given that I'm already running a schismatic Inquisitorial force that's running about hunting daemons and heretics without direction from Terra? I'm probably going to ignore the whole mess and continue hanging out in frontier territories plaguing whoever wins with a continued barrage of smart remarks.

And what is this about a 'sensible foreign policy' and 'mutual common enemies'? My Corsair fleet isn't about to make common cause with this particular moronic deaf-mute mon-keigh who can't see beyond the tip of his nose just because he's taller than the last one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DorianGray wrote:
...Would you side with the Fascist, Xenophobic High Lords of Terra that's protected/saved IoM for 10,000 years? Or the Primarch who returned and wants to change everything to save the Imperium from perpetual decline into superstition, Xenophobia, and oppression....

(Can you say "loaded question"?)

Obviously the God Emperors side is the only one to be, and who isn't ....

The blessed high lords are not one faction. They have never been ; )

My Inquisitorial host will keep fighting for team Xanthism.
Guilliman is out, for I refuse to accept a lab grown techno barbarian as a rightful ruler. What faction I will join depends on if they do or do not plan to bug me with puritan spies and / or crazy repressive laws.

So who knows I might just join sides with the Speaker for the Chartist Captains if I have to choose between high lords and non human tyrant.

2 things. One, don't have a poll giving options to people riddled with your own personal bias.

And B, where do you get the idea that a Great Crusade Era Primarch is in any way, shape, or form, more "humane" and and will act in a "better" way than the High Lords. The Imperium has been running fine* for thousands of years due to the way it manages people. It might not be the most "humane" way to do it but it's working*.

Also the Roman Empire was nearly torn apart completely in the third century from random upstarts who thought they could do it better. When in fact they just made things much much worse. I fail to see how this would be any different. Sure one individual may be more qualified, but the process of removing the current leader and giving power to the person who may or may not do a better job is potentially worse than just letting the current leader continue.

*In that the Empire isn't destroyed yet

Dorian, your biased and frankly blatant attempts to rile people up are annoying.

You are the click bait of dakkadakka.

If Reboot Gigabyte begins a civil war to clean out the religious warship and ultimately making things even more grimdark I'll begin using his real name and side with him. If he's only around to be noblebright then I can only hope that the situation follows the regular formula which anything noble bright appearing in the fluff is because it's about to meet a grim dark ending. So in conclusion - bonus points if evolved Robot Gorillamon gets captured by Honsou's warband and dies in a failed experiment to make a Primarch Daemonculabra. During "child birth" would be a great spot which finally puts the Primarch put of his misery.

Whoever would benefit them the most. So there'd be a schism.

“Side? I am on nobody's side, because nobody is on my side, little gue'la.” - Commander O'Shovah

As to how I think the forces of the Imperium would divide themselves in the case of a civil war?

Team [High Lords of] Terra:
Inquisitors ("... I DON'T LIKE CHANGE." *blam*)
Most of the Adeptus Mechanicus ("Not a god? He's the Omnissiah, of course he's a god!")
Most of the Ecclesiarchy ("Not a god? HEERRREEEETIIIIIIIIIIC" *chainsaw noises*)
Nobility ("That Guilliman guy seems like he'd disrupt the status quo. I like the status quo.")
Asassin Temples ("We answer to the HLoT. The HLoT call. Primarchs just make for a bigger target...")
Codex non-compliant Astartes ("...feth that pompous asshat.")
Astra Militarum if their command hasn't met with Guilliman ("Nuke the bastard from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...")

Team Guilliman:
Inquisitors (... BUT I DO LIKE CHANGE SOMETIMES. EXCEPT WHEN I DON'T.")
Macragge ("Spiritual Liege!")
Most Ultramarine Successor Chapters ("Spiritual LIEGE!")
Sisters of Battle ("SPIRITUAL Liege!")
Ultramarines (*unending orgasm sounds*)
Astra Militarum
Astra Militarum if their command has met with Guilliman ("What a reasonable fellow. Let's nuke the OTHER bastards from orbit.")

Team Dies Anyway:
Civilians

Team Facepalm:
Aeldari (particularly the Ynarri - "You bloody mon'keigh, we rezzed that asshat so you could UNITE AGAINST CHAOS, you tits.")

Team OY LET US IN ON DIS AKSHUN YA GROTS
Orks

Team Laughing At the Imperium Tearing Itself Apart:
Chaos
Tyranids
Necrons
Eldar (The ones not busy facepalming)

Team Mostly Irrelevant:
Tau

I mean, it's pretty obvious most people poll'ed here would vote Gulliman. We know from a meta perspective he's 'correct' because he wants to try and fix the bloated, ineffective, horrific mess that is the Imperium.

I'm going with the High Lords because I don't want more Space Marines taking centre stage.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I mean, it's pretty obvious most people poll'ed here would vote Gulliman. We know from a meta perspective he's 'correct' because he wants to try and fix the bloated, ineffective, horrific mess that is the Imperium...

And/or people are going to vote for the winning side. Gulliman has a model (two, actually). The Emperor doesn't. We know who's going to win.

 Nevelon wrote:
The xenos win. or chaos.

Everyone in the IoM looses.

Not necessarily. Half the IoM well-run is more than twice as good as the current Imperium. Get rid of the GK, inquisition, and all the other stupid gak the IoM and get back to real science.

The Emperor world agree with RG, what does a model have to do with anything?

So many heretics. We're going to need more promethium.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I mean, it's pretty obvious most people poll'ed here would vote Gulliman. We know from a meta perspective he's 'correct' because he wants to try and fix the bloated, ineffective, horrific mess that is the Imperium.

I'm going with the High Lords because I don't want more Space Marines taking centre stage.

You know the conflict (as written by GW) would boil down to RG Loyal Space Marines and the HLOT Loyal Space Marines and the Marines would yet again take center stage.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I mean, it's pretty obvious most people poll'ed here would vote Gulliman. We know from a meta perspective he's 'correct' because he wants to try and fix the bloated, ineffective, horrific mess that is the Imperium.

Not sure I can agree with that. One of my favorite long-winded quotes (source is 1d4chan, so I understand it isn't written in a style that is everyone's cup of tea) deals with how (a few minor details aside) the Imperium of Man is basically exactly what it needed to be to continue to exist as long as it has, and to continue to hold back the weight of a galaxy seemingly hellbent on its utter destruction. There's a related quote on the truly desperate situation the Ad Mech finds itself in given the reality and consequences of the 10000 year old civil war and the consequences thereof still being felt today.

Guilliman is here to save the Imperium, but despite being a demigod of supercharged warpstuff-in-a-fleshbag, he just isn't THAT magical and any attempts he makes to "save the village" may well require him to destroy it/sacrifice a great big chunk of it to the flame, vietnam-style.

The hope is that they're willing to explore that, rather than pretend that even the Patron Saint of Logistics can save the Imperium from its effectively inevitable destruction.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I mean, it's pretty obvious most people poll'ed here would vote Gulliman. We know from a meta perspective he's 'correct' because he wants to try and fix the bloated, ineffective, horrific mess that is the Imperium.

I'm going with the High Lords because I don't want more Space Marines taking centre stage.

You know the conflict (as written by GW) would boil down to RG Loyal Space Marines and the HLOT Loyal Space Marines and the Marines would yet again take center stage.

At least they weren't leading the Imperium

I stand by Papa Nurgle, of course. Can that be an option?

Rowboat will cause the entire thing would just be fluff created to spank off to his return a bit more.

 B Stores wrote:
I stand by Papa Nurgle, of course. Can that be an option?

Only if I can get Abbadon vs. Guiliman in re-creation of Horus vs. The Emperor fight on a battle barge with Robot defeating Failadon but not before he mortally wounds him. Thus returning 40K to the status quo and Chaos gets a new Warmaster. /s

Forget the power of faith and hatred, for Reboot has taught us how to mass produce power armor and plasma guns that never overheat. Forget the impending doom of the Tyranids and the Necrontyr, for in the noble bright future they have become our friends. There is only peace among the stars, an eternity of progress and enlightenment, and the laughter of Reboot’s League of Super Friends.

Yeah, it almost certainly won't be that bad, but I'm a little paranoid about this whole thing.

Sisters of Battle ("SPIRITUAL Liege!")

Feth you heretic! *BLAM!*

Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Depends on who he can rally around him. Guilliman seriously pissed off the non-Codex legions like DA, BA, and Space Wolves, but if he can rally them against the High Lords, than the High Lords have no chance. If it's just Guilliman, a couple allies, and the Ultramarines against the rest of the Imperium, then things get pretty dicey for him.

The Codex deviants don't really have anything against Girlyman, they just didn't want to follow the Codex - the answer in most cases was "No." rather than "Get the feth off my planet or I'll fill you with bolter rounds!"

The High Lords of Terra on the other hand - I'm not sure about the other codex deviants but the Space Wolves have hated the High Lords of Terra since the before the Horus Heresy broke out.

I think what will happen might be painfully obvious. Guilliman will likely sacrifice his own life in some attempt to stop some event and save Terra or the throne, he will be forced into a position where he can do nothing else.

Why will this happen? Because he cannot live, in order for 40k to remain the IoM cannot have a singular unopposed voice that can rearrange with a methodical effectiveness the entire IoM into a well oiled machine. Him staying alive seems more end times than killing him at least to me anyway.

What if the Terminus Decree is directing the GK to aid Guilliman? What happens when Guilliman walks straight into the Imperial Palace and goes before the golden throne and comes back to the Lords of Terra backed by the custodes, the grey knights and a living saint?

The sisters of battle would probably ditch the Ecclesiarchy in a heartbeat to work directly under a saint and a living legend fresh from a chat directly with the emperor backed by custodes than follow some narrative that the he's a heretic and you quickly will come to a situation of Imperial Guard vs all other IoM factions. I don't think any Lord of Terra that wished to live would do anything other than acquiesce to the whims of Guilliman. The man wrote the playbook that majority of the Astartes go by and implying that he will make rash tactical decisions and he himself quickly branded a heretic or something along those lines is nonsense. If he is able to make moves unopposed he will steamroll the current leadership

Hence, he will need to die or kept so busy he cannot lead the IoM.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 B Stores wrote:
I stand by Papa Nurgle, of course. Can that be an option?

Only if I can get Abbadon vs. Guiliman in re-creation of Horus vs. The Emperor fight on a battle barge with Robot defeating Failadon but not before he mortally wounds him. Thus returning 40K to the status quo and Chaos gets a new Warmaster. /s

I have a feeling this is exactly what will happen. He can't live, he will be able to do much to the benefit of IoM if he lives.

"The Guilliman Heresy" just doesn't have that certain special ring to it, ya know?

"The Secession Wars" doesn't sound at all interesting either. GW will really have to work hard on this campaign to make it sound good!

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 B Stores wrote:
I stand by Papa Nurgle, of course. Can that be an option?

Only if I can get Abbadon vs. Guiliman in re-creation of Horus vs. The Emperor fight on a battle barge with Robot defeating Failadon but not before he mortally wounds him. Thus returning 40K to the status quo and Chaos gets a new Warmaster. /s

...Deal!

When it came to a head, I'd vote for Gulliman, but...

Gulliman would be a fool to move directly against the High Lords minutes after being brought out of statis.

At best, it would start another civil war within an already teetering Imperium that is facing the results of a civil war 10K years old.

More than likely, he'd simply become an enemy of the Imperium, hunted down and destroyed before he got the lay of the land.

That is what Russ would do, and that would be his fate.

Gulliman is a planner and a statesman. His first priority will be beating back the Chaos Incursion. He'd work within the bounds of the Imperium as much as possible. Then, once he's reestablished his power base at Macragge and helped to stabilize the crumbling imperium, he'd take the next step.

Once the entire Imperium is behind him, he can put the Lords of Terra and the inquisition in their place, forcing them to quietly step down and/or disband. He'd be a fool to rage openly and loudly against the imperium until he had his feet back under him and understood the lay of the modern land. While he isn't going to be idle, he's not going to be rash either and start another civil war or heresy.

of course the alternative answer is that Gulliman will be needed just to stem the tide. things are getting a LOT worse across the galaxy. cadia has fallen and warp storms are engulfing much of the galaxy. GS2 showed a galatic map with locations of major warp storms and it was.... impressive. Gulliman may be needed just to stem the tide

 Tamwulf wrote:
"The Guilliman Heresy" just doesn't have that certain special ring to it, ya know?

"The Secession Wars" doesn't sound at all interesting either. GW will really have to work hard on this campaign to make it sound good!

"The Scouring of Ultramar" maybe?

Because one Chapter (now possibly the Ultramarines instead of the Dark Angels) would go rogue according to rumours?

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Team Laughing At the Imperium Tearing Itself Apart:
..
Eldar (The ones not busy facepalming)

Na not really at least if you believe the rumours. For Guilliman is rumoured to be an eldar puppet put there to make the IoM stop feeding choas like the idiotic neighbour they are.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Team Laughing At the Imperium Tearing Itself Apart:
..
Eldar (The ones not busy facepalming)

Na not really at least if you believe the rumours. For Guilliman is rumoured to be an eldar puppet put there to make the IoM stop feeding choas like the idiotic neighbour they are.

Look again at my list: Eldar are listed in Team Facepalm (particularly the Ynarri faction) for exactly the reasons you stated.

But not all Eldar are on the "let's awaken a mon'keigh demigod to stop chaos" train, and that includes more traditional Craftworld Eldar and, most notably, Vect's sect of DE (who would very much be laughing their asses off)

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Team Laughing At the Imperium Tearing Itself Apart:
..
Eldar (The ones not busy facepalming)

Na not really at least if you believe the rumours. For Guilliman is rumoured to be an eldar puppet put there to make the IoM stop feeding choas like the idiotic neighbour they are.

That's rich almost to the point of hilarity.
IoM has made Daemon Princes but have they made a Chaos god?

IoM isn't the creative type they are more the crazy type of neighbour who keeps feeding the pigeons 20 breads a day and won't stop when the entire neighbourhood complained about the rats.
The thing that makes the IoM worse is that half of them actually started to join team rats.

F Gilliman. I called it years ago that a new civil war would erupt it Gilliman ever returned, as fully 50% of the standing Astartes in the current storyline are sons of Gilliman. If all of them heeded his call to protect Ultramar, it would disrupt the military operations of the Imperium leaving huge swaths of the galaxy undefended. So F Gilliman.

SJ

Well, Guilliman, to the best of my knowledge, very much remains a High Lord of Terra - he never rescinded his seat.

And I doubt the current High Lords would object to having a Primarch join them - if anyone is the Emperor's legitimate heir, it's his sole present, loyalist son.

Yet Guilliman is too much of a statesman to mindless rock the boat.

I'm very interested to read the background on this one.

dosiere wrote:
Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

Source ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I doubt the current High Lords would object to having a Primarch join them .

Sure they would, no sane high lord would want to see his power be diminished to worthless advisor. Let this so called Guilliman prove who he is to the administratum before he can even set foot on holy terra. He could be a daemon disguised as him for all we know.

 oldzoggy wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

Source ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I doubt the current High Lords would object to having a Primarch join them .

Sure they would, no sane high lord would want to see his power be diminished to worthless advisor. Let this so called Guilliman prove who he is to the administratum before he can even set foot on holy terra. He could be a daemon disguised as him for all we know.

He has got the backing of the entire chapter of ultramarines, plus a living saint AND grey knights. Pretty sure a daemon accusation holds no water.

Yeah Robot Ghoulman is a High Lord.

It was part of his sweet deal and reward for braking up all the legions except his.

When Fulgrum "killed" him the other High Lords in honour of his work named him a permanent member and retired his chair. When the meet they still leave his place at the table open, this I believe has conveniently reduced the Marines influence.

It also now means he is the most senior High Lord and if I remember correctly will take them back to an odd number of High Lords.

The Dark Angels choose only the side of redemption. We seek only Cypher & the fallen, and if this "Primarch" decides to interfere with our task by protecting our quarry, then we shall have to deal with him too, no matter the cost.

 oldzoggy wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

Source ?

2nd Ed Ultramarine Codex. Although the codex states that "there are few records of the early centuries . . . the tradition of the Ultramarines relates that [Robute Guilliman] was one of these High Lords."

The summary is more or less that the High Lords council of 12 was formed in part by Guilliman, and that he was one of the first 12.

Not to mention his "almost singlehanded" reorganization of the Imperiums armies. Basically he had a huge part in setting the whole Imperium up, post Heresy, which could make his return more interesting, as he gets to see how what he helped architect is either working or not working.

Also of note is the passage: "He became Lord Commander of the Imperium, the first to carry that title and the only man ever to command the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces." Which is interesting, but realistically probably "in name only" to a degree. It's not like he had free reign and could simply order other primarchs (or the Ad-mech, etc.) around, there was still probably a lot of measured statesmanship and convincing involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:
Yeah Robot Ghoulman is a High Lord.

It was part of his sweet deal and reward for braking up all the legions except his.

When Fulgrum "killed" him the other High Lords in honour of his work named him a permanent member and retired his chair. When the meet they still leave his place at the table open, this I believe has conveniently reduced the Marines influence.

It also now means he is the most senior High Lord and if I remember correctly will take them back to an odd number of High Lords.

Oh that's interesting, what's the source for that?

I'm actually pretty certain Sisters would play both sides. Most Sisters organizations have specific goals that have nothing to do with which side wins, like defending a specific shrine world or participating in a specific crusade for a holy world.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

Source ?

2nd Ed Ultramarine Codex. Although the codex states that "there are few records of the early centuries . . . the tradition of the Ultramarines relates that [Robute Guilliman] was one of these High Lords."

The summary is more or less that the High Lords council of 12 was formed in part by Guilliman, and that he was one of the first 12.

Not to mention his "almost singlehanded" reorganization of the Imperiums armies. Basically he had a huge part in setting the whole Imperium up, post Heresy, which could make his return more interesting, as he gets to see how what he helped architect is either working or not working.

Also of note is the passage: "He became Lord Commander of the Imperium, the first to carry that title and the only man ever to command the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces." Which is interesting, but realistically probably "in name only" to a degree. It's not like he had free reign and could simply order other primarchs (or the Ad-mech, etc.) around, there was still probably a lot of measured statesmanship and convincing involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:
Yeah Robot Ghoulman is a High Lord.

It was part of his sweet deal and reward for braking up all the legions except his.

When Fulgrum "killed" him the other High Lords in honour of his work named him a permanent member and retired his chair. When the meet they still leave his place at the table open, this I believe has conveniently reduced the Marines influence.

It also now means he is the most senior High Lord and if I remember correctly will take them back to an odd number of High Lords.

Oh that's interesting, what's the source for that?

It is a little fuzzy but I think 5th edition main rule book make mention of it in there discription of the imperium or.might be the 1st wardian fanfic sm codex.

Ceann wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

Source ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I doubt the current High Lords would object to having a Primarch join them .

Sure they would, no sane high lord would want to see his power be diminished to worthless advisor. Let this so called Guilliman prove who he is to the administratum before he can even set foot on holy terra. He could be a daemon disguised as him for all we know.

He has got the backing of the entire chapter of ultramarines, plus a living saint AND grey knights. Pretty sure a daemon accusation holds no water.

Considering what happened in the Apostasy (and some of the crazier claims against top officials in our own world today), that's no guarantee he won't have opponents to his return. We are talking an organziation tha rules the entire galaxy - at least in name. No one is going to willingly give up that sort of power on a claim if it can't be backed in some way - and with overwheliming, majority support (one Chapter of 1,000 crazed fanatics and half that from another with a secret agenda and a warp entity isn't exactly resounding support in a universe of billions).

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I mean, it's pretty obvious most people poll'ed here would vote Gulliman. We know from a meta perspective he's 'correct' because he wants to try and fix the bloated, ineffective, horrific mess that is the Imperium.

Not sure I can agree with that. One of my favorite long-winded quotes (source is 1d4chan, so I understand it isn't written in a style that is everyone's cup of tea) deals with how (a few minor details aside) the Imperium of Man is basically exactly what it needed to be to continue to exist as long as it has, and to continue to hold back the weight of a galaxy seemingly hellbent on its utter destruction. There's a related quote on the truly desperate situation the Ad Mech finds itself in given the reality and consequences of the 10000 year old civil war and the consequences thereof still being felt today.

Guilliman is here to save the Imperium, but despite being a demigod of supercharged warpstuff-in-a-fleshbag, he just isn't THAT magical and any attempts he makes to "save the village" may well require him to destroy it/sacrifice a great big chunk of it to the flame, vietnam-style.

The hope is that they're willing to explore that, rather than pretend that even the Patron Saint of Logistics can save the Imperium from its effectively inevitable destruction.

But here's the main issue..... all fluff since sometime around the 3rd edition has been intentionally been written to be biased.... so of course the imperium is going to give itself raving reviews.

Also think for the second that the imperium of man was one of two things

A) Exactly what the empire needed with no emperor or primarchs, even then the empire lasted a thousand years before the imperial cult became ingrained in the empire.

Or more likely

B) The best humans could do in a time of major political upheaval, multiple civil wars and a lack of strong leadership. By the time you see strong leadership the Ecclesiarchy is so powerful it kills all of those who dissent, not because of any real necessity for the survival of mankind, but because of it's own corruption and it's desire to rule mankind. You could even get to the point that the Ecclesiarchy is so corrupt and blinded by religious dogma that they believe their own lie that they're required for mankind to survive.

Well since I am Alpharius and so are you, none of this matters.

On a side note, I see most space marines siding with Guilliman. Especially the first and second foundings. The only ones who wouldn't would probably be chapters like the minotaurs or marines malevolent.

The Imperial Guard would follow whoever they were commanded by at the time.

I imagine the admech and eclesiarch have the most to loose from so I think the larger portion of them would side against the primarch.

Who knows what the inquisition would think.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Well since I am Alpharius and so are you, none of this matters.

On a side note, I see most space marines siding with Guilliman. Especially the first and second foundings. The only ones who wouldn't would probably be chapters like the minotaurs or marines malevolent.

The Imperial Guard would follow whoever they were commanded by at the time.

I imagine the admech and eclesiarch have the most to loose from so I think the larger portion of them would side against the primarch.

Who knows what the inquisition would think.

Any reason for admech losing from this? Surely they could gain more than they would lose?

There's been 10,000 years of Marines operating without a primarch, so I think you're underestimating the weight of Imperial inertia when it comes to how many marines would side with some upstart claiming to be a primarch over stay loyal to the Imperium.

More and more, I liked that they picked him to be the one to come back. He was not the strongest, noblest and by far is one of the least interesting of his sons. But he was the closest to what the the Big E really wanted. Stable, secular, organized and with comparatively little emotional baggage.

I think that was Sanguinius, actually, because I think Guilliman actually had quiet a bit of emotional baggage, regarding his own self-importance. I guess that makes him most similar to the Emperor? But without the competence.

To me, Sanguinius always felt like he would have been the best, but ultimately his role was to die for his fathers sins. He was far more humble and obviously a better fighter but his legion had issue even before his death. To me everything that made Guilliman the right choice 9000 years ago when he picked up the pieces makes him right now. I don't see him living through what needs to be done this time, and Id love to see the lion or russ show up at some point. That said he was there at the beginning of what a post heresy future looked liked. Only fitting he should see how that ends.

The fluff was clear that Sanguinious was the one most in line with the Emperor desire for humanity and the galaxy. I like the old fluff before Mattard did the spiritual liege bull gak. The fact that he divides the Marines into chapters so that one man can't wield too much power and becoming the Lord Commander of the Imperium should ignite questions to his motivations and character let alone empire building. Before hamfisting in the whole "all mehreens aspire to be that guy" they had a very interesting character similar to the Lion which left us guessing the true intentions of these characters before they perished into obscure history.

Beast arises also confirms Roboute's status as a high lord of Terra. In his honor they kept his status intact.

Besides all that. Once more people seriously underestimate the influence of a primarch. In many novels normal human beings cower before a primarch, unable to overcome his Alpha leader precense. Even most marines dare not go against a primarch.

Besides that. Roboute is extremely intelligent, he will overcome most problems with his brain. What he canot overcome with that, he crushes as the vast majority of the chapters will side with him. Most of the chapters out there have his geneseed anyway.

The custodes will most likely also side with him in as he is favoured by a lot of people in the imperium. He also has his own imperium within the imperium. Way too manu is at risk by not sifing with him. I aldo expect many high lords will side with him purely for political gain.

I would side with papa smurf as i am revolted by the acting high lords of terra. The imperium is sick. Most of its problems are caused by internal politics.

Would love to see the inquisition declare him a heretic and exterminatus Macragge.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Once more people seriously underestimate the influence of a primarch. In many novels normal human beings cower before a primarch, unable to overcome his Alpha leader precense. Even most marines dare not go against a primarch.

Well, there's that one dude who was ready to throw down with Horus...

If this possible rebellion was being lead by a less forgetable primarch, I might side with the rebellion. But since it would be guillamen, go high Lord's.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Once more people seriously underestimate the influence of a primarch. In many novels normal human beings cower before a primarch, unable to overcome his Alpha leader precense. Even most marines dare not go against a primarch.

Well, there's that one dude who was ready to throw down with Horus...

Ollanius Motherfething Pius brah!

Yoyoyo wrote:
Well, there's that one dude who was ready to throw down with Horus...

Ginjitzu wrote:
Ollanius Motherfething Pius brah!

Ah yes, the Immortal Man for whom death is either no consequence because he'll just be resurrected, or a release from thousands of years of suffering. Standing up to a Primarch must have been so terrible for him.

Yeah that's new lore, that most people reject. He was originally an ordinary human.

Wasn't he also at one point a Space Marine and Custode?

Regardless Ollanius Pius has never been something I had much interest in. He seemed better as just a Legend and not something that actually existed.

rowboat is still a High lord of Terra and will most likely take his seat on the council, rather than crowning himself the new emperor as he worked hard to avoid exactly that scenario by breaking up the legions. and even though half of all loyalist marines carry his geneseed that doesn't guarantee thier loyality. chances are he'll try and work hard to make the emperium great again, but he'll be stopped at every corner and can't do much without risking another civil war with any of the factions.

Also, GW seems to be very careful when it comes to changes to 40k in comparison to fantasy as 40K is still profitable

Why everyone says that the Custodes will side with Gulliman?

Was not part of the Lore that the Emperor, in his Golden Throne, actually realised that humankind can't survive without Religion, and that the Empire Truth its the strongest weapon and shield the Empire has against Chaos?

Maybe this is just a case of "internet accepted as canon lore" but honestly I don't know.

High Lords will win.
Therefore, praise the High Lords!

The reason being; only the High Lords can release the Assassins and they would release many Assassins in the event of a Girlyman civil war.

The Imperial Truth was atheism, not religion. Worshipping the Emperor is the opposite of the Imperial Truth, and completely counter to what the Emperor was attempting to do, which was to starve the Warp. The very act of worship feeds the Warp, causing Warp entities to grow, or in the Emperor's case to not die.

As to the Sons of Guilliman, their very geneseed compels compliance and submission to Primarchs, especially their Primarch. It is the rare individual that can resist the pull of a nearby Primarch, which is why removing Terran Astartes from the Traitor Legions was so important in the opening days of the Heresy. In today's 40k, Guilliman will be a beacon to his sons and Siren's call to the hearts and psyche of his brother's sons. Civil war is inevitable.

SJ

I think that's really debatable, actually. It's really more of a thing with militaries, it's very rare for soldiers to disobey orders f their superiors.

The question is whether or not they'll see some new upstart that claims to be a primarch as their superior, or the High Lords they've served for thousands of years.

Ol' Robbie G is going to let Celestine go full beastmode and wreck gak.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Wasn't he also at one point a Space Marine and Custode?

Regardless Ollanius Pius has never been something I had much interest in. He seemed better as just a Legend and not something that actually existed.

He was a normal guardsman who was later retconned out for those things then later retconned as immortal. This is one example of why some people hate the HH series so much.

 n0t_u wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Wasn't he also at one point a Space Marine and Custode?

Regardless Ollanius Pius has never been something I had much interest in. He seemed better as just a Legend and not something that actually existed.

He was a normal guardsman who was later retconned out for those things then later retconned as immortal. This is one example of why some people hate the HH series so much.

He was a Guardsmen in Rogue Trader, much of which was completely retconned, and people are mad that he isn't what RT made him? Seems silly among things people normally get upset over for this setting. From what I am seeing, before the HH series there wasn't really any mention of him between the book they brought him into the series with and the Compendium for RT.

 Melissia wrote:
I think that's really debatable, actually. It's really more of a thing with militaries, it's very rare for soldiers to disobey orders f their superiors.

The question is whether or not they'll see some new upstart that claims to be a primarch as their superior, or the High Lords they've served for thousands of years.

except they DON'T serve the High lords. the material is VERY VERY VERY clear on that. the space Marine chapter masters answer only to "The emperor" (the same as the high lords) any conflict between Gulliman and the HLT would be one the space marines could pick eaither side, I suspect a lot would stay neutral tending to the security of the borders

Fluff wise not sure, my regiment if super religious and worship the God-Emperor to no end. But they really fething hate another Imperials. They feel abandoned, not receiving support when a Chaos, DE, Greenskins, Nids, and a civil war were happening in our sector. Not sure, since would Guillam be seen as the son of the Emperor, probably, but then again he denies His divinity. Honestly the situation is unlikely, as I would hope Guillium to see the Imperium isn't in a place for civil war, they need to stay unified and destroy Chaos before moving on with Imperial Beaucracy.

If i was an Imperium player I would definitely side with Guilliman. The Imperium needs some serious reforms or risk becoming the villains they tried to destroy