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 oldzoggy wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

Source ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I doubt the current High Lords would object to having a Primarch join them .

Sure they would, no sane high lord would want to see his power be diminished to worthless advisor. Let this so called Guilliman prove who he is to the administratum before he can even set foot on holy terra. He could be a daemon disguised as him for all we know.

He has got the backing of the entire chapter of ultramarines, plus a living saint AND grey knights. Pretty sure a daemon accusation holds no water.

Yeah Robot Ghoulman is a High Lord.

It was part of his sweet deal and reward for braking up all the legions except his.

When Fulgrum "killed" him the other High Lords in honour of his work named him a permanent member and retired his chair. When the meet they still leave his place at the table open, this I believe has conveniently reduced the Marines influence.

It also now means he is the most senior High Lord and if I remember correctly will take them back to an odd number of High Lords.

The Dark Angels choose only the side of redemption. We seek only Cypher & the fallen, and if this "Primarch" decides to interfere with our task by protecting our quarry, then we shall have to deal with him too, no matter the cost.

 oldzoggy wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

Source ?

2nd Ed Ultramarine Codex. Although the codex states that "there are few records of the early centuries . . . the tradition of the Ultramarines relates that [Robute Guilliman] was one of these High Lords."

The summary is more or less that the High Lords council of 12 was formed in part by Guilliman, and that he was one of the first 12.

Not to mention his "almost singlehanded" reorganization of the Imperiums armies. Basically he had a huge part in setting the whole Imperium up, post Heresy, which could make his return more interesting, as he gets to see how what he helped architect is either working or not working.

Also of note is the passage: "He became Lord Commander of the Imperium, the first to carry that title and the only man ever to command the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces." Which is interesting, but realistically probably "in name only" to a degree. It's not like he had free reign and could simply order other primarchs (or the Ad-mech, etc.) around, there was still probably a lot of measured statesmanship and convincing involved.


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SeanDrake wrote:
Yeah Robot Ghoulman is a High Lord.

It was part of his sweet deal and reward for braking up all the legions except his.

When Fulgrum "killed" him the other High Lords in honour of his work named him a permanent member and retired his chair. When the meet they still leave his place at the table open, this I believe has conveniently reduced the Marines influence.

It also now means he is the most senior High Lord and if I remember correctly will take them back to an odd number of High Lords.

Oh that's interesting, what's the source for that?

I'm actually pretty certain Sisters would play both sides. Most Sisters organizations have specific goals that have nothing to do with which side wins, like defending a specific shrine world or participating in a specific crusade for a holy world.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

Source ?

2nd Ed Ultramarine Codex. Although the codex states that "there are few records of the early centuries . . . the tradition of the Ultramarines relates that [Robute Guilliman] was one of these High Lords."

The summary is more or less that the High Lords council of 12 was formed in part by Guilliman, and that he was one of the first 12.

Not to mention his "almost singlehanded" reorganization of the Imperiums armies. Basically he had a huge part in setting the whole Imperium up, post Heresy, which could make his return more interesting, as he gets to see how what he helped architect is either working or not working.

Also of note is the passage: "He became Lord Commander of the Imperium, the first to carry that title and the only man ever to command the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces." Which is interesting, but realistically probably "in name only" to a degree. It's not like he had free reign and could simply order other primarchs (or the Ad-mech, etc.) around, there was still probably a lot of measured statesmanship and convincing involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:
Yeah Robot Ghoulman is a High Lord.

It was part of his sweet deal and reward for braking up all the legions except his.

When Fulgrum "killed" him the other High Lords in honour of his work named him a permanent member and retired his chair. When the meet they still leave his place at the table open, this I believe has conveniently reduced the Marines influence.

It also now means he is the most senior High Lord and if I remember correctly will take them back to an odd number of High Lords.

Oh that's interesting, what's the source for that?

It is a little fuzzy but I think 5th edition main rule book make mention of it in there discription of the imperium or.might be the 1st wardian fanfic sm codex.

Ceann wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Guilliman is a high lord of terra.

Source ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I doubt the current High Lords would object to having a Primarch join them .

Sure they would, no sane high lord would want to see his power be diminished to worthless advisor. Let this so called Guilliman prove who he is to the administratum before he can even set foot on holy terra. He could be a daemon disguised as him for all we know.

He has got the backing of the entire chapter of ultramarines, plus a living saint AND grey knights. Pretty sure a daemon accusation holds no water.

Considering what happened in the Apostasy (and some of the crazier claims against top officials in our own world today), that's no guarantee he won't have opponents to his return. We are talking an organziation tha rules the entire galaxy - at least in name. No one is going to willingly give up that sort of power on a claim if it can't be backed in some way - and with overwheliming, majority support (one Chapter of 1,000 crazed fanatics and half that from another with a secret agenda and a warp entity isn't exactly resounding support in a universe of billions).

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I mean, it's pretty obvious most people poll'ed here would vote Gulliman. We know from a meta perspective he's 'correct' because he wants to try and fix the bloated, ineffective, horrific mess that is the Imperium.

Not sure I can agree with that. One of my favorite long-winded quotes (source is 1d4chan, so I understand it isn't written in a style that is everyone's cup of tea) deals with how (a few minor details aside) the Imperium of Man is basically exactly what it needed to be to continue to exist as long as it has, and to continue to hold back the weight of a galaxy seemingly hellbent on its utter destruction. There's a related quote on the truly desperate situation the Ad Mech finds itself in given the reality and consequences of the 10000 year old civil war and the consequences thereof still being felt today.

Guilliman is here to save the Imperium, but despite being a demigod of supercharged warpstuff-in-a-fleshbag, he just isn't THAT magical and any attempts he makes to "save the village" may well require him to destroy it/sacrifice a great big chunk of it to the flame, vietnam-style.

The hope is that they're willing to explore that, rather than pretend that even the Patron Saint of Logistics can save the Imperium from its effectively inevitable destruction.

But here's the main issue..... all fluff since sometime around the 3rd edition has been intentionally been written to be biased.... so of course the imperium is going to give itself raving reviews.

Also think for the second that the imperium of man was one of two things

A) Exactly what the empire needed with no emperor or primarchs, even then the empire lasted a thousand years before the imperial cult became ingrained in the empire.

Or more likely

B) The best humans could do in a time of major political upheaval, multiple civil wars and a lack of strong leadership. By the time you see strong leadership the Ecclesiarchy is so powerful it kills all of those who dissent, not because of any real necessity for the survival of mankind, but because of it's own corruption and it's desire to rule mankind. You could even get to the point that the Ecclesiarchy is so corrupt and blinded by religious dogma that they believe their own lie that they're required for mankind to survive.

Well since I am Alpharius and so are you, none of this matters.

On a side note, I see most space marines siding with Guilliman. Especially the first and second foundings. The only ones who wouldn't would probably be chapters like the minotaurs or marines malevolent.

The Imperial Guard would follow whoever they were commanded by at the time.

I imagine the admech and eclesiarch have the most to loose from so I think the larger portion of them would side against the primarch.

Who knows what the inquisition would think.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Well since I am Alpharius and so are you, none of this matters.

On a side note, I see most space marines siding with Guilliman. Especially the first and second foundings. The only ones who wouldn't would probably be chapters like the minotaurs or marines malevolent.

The Imperial Guard would follow whoever they were commanded by at the time.

I imagine the admech and eclesiarch have the most to loose from so I think the larger portion of them would side against the primarch.

Who knows what the inquisition would think.

Any reason for admech losing from this? Surely they could gain more than they would lose?

There's been 10,000 years of Marines operating without a primarch, so I think you're underestimating the weight of Imperial inertia when it comes to how many marines would side with some upstart claiming to be a primarch over stay loyal to the Imperium.

More and more, I liked that they picked him to be the one to come back. He was not the strongest, noblest and by far is one of the least interesting of his sons. But he was the closest to what the the Big E really wanted. Stable, secular, organized and with comparatively little emotional baggage.

I think that was Sanguinius, actually, because I think Guilliman actually had quiet a bit of emotional baggage, regarding his own self-importance. I guess that makes him most similar to the Emperor? But without the competence.

To me, Sanguinius always felt like he would have been the best, but ultimately his role was to die for his fathers sins. He was far more humble and obviously a better fighter but his legion had issue even before his death. To me everything that made Guilliman the right choice 9000 years ago when he picked up the pieces makes him right now. I don't see him living through what needs to be done this time, and Id love to see the lion or russ show up at some point. That said he was there at the beginning of what a post heresy future looked liked. Only fitting he should see how that ends.

The fluff was clear that Sanguinious was the one most in line with the Emperor desire for humanity and the galaxy. I like the old fluff before Mattard did the spiritual liege bull gak. The fact that he divides the Marines into chapters so that one man can't wield too much power and becoming the Lord Commander of the Imperium should ignite questions to his motivations and character let alone empire building. Before hamfisting in the whole "all mehreens aspire to be that guy" they had a very interesting character similar to the Lion which left us guessing the true intentions of these characters before they perished into obscure history.

Beast arises also confirms Roboute's status as a high lord of Terra. In his honor they kept his status intact.

Besides all that. Once more people seriously underestimate the influence of a primarch. In many novels normal human beings cower before a primarch, unable to overcome his Alpha leader precense. Even most marines dare not go against a primarch.

Besides that. Roboute is extremely intelligent, he will overcome most problems with his brain. What he canot overcome with that, he crushes as the vast majority of the chapters will side with him. Most of the chapters out there have his geneseed anyway.

The custodes will most likely also side with him in as he is favoured by a lot of people in the imperium. He also has his own imperium within the imperium. Way too manu is at risk by not sifing with him. I aldo expect many high lords will side with him purely for political gain.

I would side with papa smurf as i am revolted by the acting high lords of terra. The imperium is sick. Most of its problems are caused by internal politics.

Would love to see the inquisition declare him a heretic and exterminatus Macragge.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Once more people seriously underestimate the influence of a primarch. In many novels normal human beings cower before a primarch, unable to overcome his Alpha leader precense. Even most marines dare not go against a primarch.

Well, there's that one dude who was ready to throw down with Horus...

If this possible rebellion was being lead by a less forgetable primarch, I might side with the rebellion. But since it would be guillamen, go high Lord's.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Once more people seriously underestimate the influence of a primarch. In many novels normal human beings cower before a primarch, unable to overcome his Alpha leader precense. Even most marines dare not go against a primarch.

Well, there's that one dude who was ready to throw down with Horus...

Ollanius Motherfething Pius brah!

Yoyoyo wrote:
Well, there's that one dude who was ready to throw down with Horus...

Ginjitzu wrote:
Ollanius Motherfething Pius brah!

Ah yes, the Immortal Man for whom death is either no consequence because he'll just be resurrected, or a release from thousands of years of suffering. Standing up to a Primarch must have been so terrible for him.

Yeah that's new lore, that most people reject. He was originally an ordinary human.

Wasn't he also at one point a Space Marine and Custode?

Regardless Ollanius Pius has never been something I had much interest in. He seemed better as just a Legend and not something that actually existed.

rowboat is still a High lord of Terra and will most likely take his seat on the council, rather than crowning himself the new emperor as he worked hard to avoid exactly that scenario by breaking up the legions. and even though half of all loyalist marines carry his geneseed that doesn't guarantee thier loyality. chances are he'll try and work hard to make the emperium great again, but he'll be stopped at every corner and can't do much without risking another civil war with any of the factions.

Also, GW seems to be very careful when it comes to changes to 40k in comparison to fantasy as 40K is still profitable

Why everyone says that the Custodes will side with Gulliman?

Was not part of the Lore that the Emperor, in his Golden Throne, actually realised that humankind can't survive without Religion, and that the Empire Truth its the strongest weapon and shield the Empire has against Chaos?

Maybe this is just a case of "internet accepted as canon lore" but honestly I don't know.

High Lords will win.
Therefore, praise the High Lords!

The reason being; only the High Lords can release the Assassins and they would release many Assassins in the event of a Girlyman civil war.

The Imperial Truth was atheism, not religion. Worshipping the Emperor is the opposite of the Imperial Truth, and completely counter to what the Emperor was attempting to do, which was to starve the Warp. The very act of worship feeds the Warp, causing Warp entities to grow, or in the Emperor's case to not die.

As to the Sons of Guilliman, their very geneseed compels compliance and submission to Primarchs, especially their Primarch. It is the rare individual that can resist the pull of a nearby Primarch, which is why removing Terran Astartes from the Traitor Legions was so important in the opening days of the Heresy. In today's 40k, Guilliman will be a beacon to his sons and Siren's call to the hearts and psyche of his brother's sons. Civil war is inevitable.

SJ

I think that's really debatable, actually. It's really more of a thing with militaries, it's very rare for soldiers to disobey orders f their superiors.

The question is whether or not they'll see some new upstart that claims to be a primarch as their superior, or the High Lords they've served for thousands of years.

Ol' Robbie G is going to let Celestine go full beastmode and wreck gak.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Wasn't he also at one point a Space Marine and Custode?

Regardless Ollanius Pius has never been something I had much interest in. He seemed better as just a Legend and not something that actually existed.

He was a normal guardsman who was later retconned out for those things then later retconned as immortal. This is one example of why some people hate the HH series so much.