Why did this pop into my head at reading "New type of Space Marines".
It really shouldn't.
Except I imagine it backwards with Fantasy invading 40k.
I really hope that there will not be a new "type" of marine. Custodes don't count, but we don't need a new kind. I would be happy with a new armor mark or whatever.
Do all Space Marine chapters disband and form under a single banner and remove all the bloat once and for all under a new edition? That would be lovely!
Or does this change only represent a new Space Marine in the background and it's little more than justification for GW to release updated Space Marine models? It's brilliant if you consider a lot of players will buy whole new armies to replace their existing ones to have the new models.
Especially if the rumors are true that these are more 'true scale' oriented.
If GW adds another SM line before plastic sisters or another IG regiment in plastic, I'll just take a break from the hobby. It would beyond all reason/logic, that for my own mental health I would just need to walk away. Pray to the emperor you are trolling and if you are, well played.
Not only are they new marines. They are BETTER in every way and made from Robut Guiliman's blood and Cawl equipping them with new weapons and armor designs. 75hastings in war for sigmar comments has all but confirmed. He has an extremely solid record too.
I'm not even making this up folks. Now every marine player knows how non-marine players feel. "They took err JERRBS!"
I am laughing so hard.
Edit
Mark 10 power armor. A new standard bolter that is longer and looks more like an assault rifle. He also said that they will be shifting to these new marines for future releases with old marines only getting minimal releases. Truth be told I don't mind this too much. I got my DW mini's so if they never make another one at least I have the models I want for the cool diorama idea I have. He says the goal is to make them more truescale.
Hastings has said that no factions are being squatted and that some of the xenos races would see models this year. Specifically an ork buggy as an example.
Actually robut rules on the throne now. I don't imagine he rules ultramar directly anymore unless pressing business takes him there.
Still it is not outside the possibility the Tau get changed so much they may as well be Nu Tau so I'm bracing myself despite his assurances. Who knows maybe the Tau won't be the ones getting anything this year. He did seem to imply not all the remaining ones would.
Edit
Truth be told I think it's highly likely that Guillstarties go for Tau first. If I was him I would do it too. They are the weakest faction to crush with a massive crusade. Once the TE space is secure it can be built up and send back reinforcements to the other fronts that lagged behind for awhile and send back triple the forces to them and not have to worry about that direction. It does mean losing ground ot other threats at least for a time while the Tau are focused down though.
If Tau-Cron ever happens as an alliance it would be an act of desperation to save themselves.
May as well enjoy the ride then. And they most likely will, cause you'll get Vets and new players buying them. They will likely look really cool, of that I have no doubt.
Who knows maybe some of the Chapters will be upset that they are being replaced by Gullstartes and one will do the unthinkable and join the Tau. (pls no)
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: May as well enjoy the ride then. And they most likely will, cause you'll get Vets and new players buying them. They will likely look really cool, of that I have no doubt.
Who knows maybe some of the Chapters will be upset that they are being replaced by Gullstartes and one will do the unthinkable and join the Tau. (pls no)
I thought the same thing lol. What if those marines get sad at being outdated? Will they come here? Please no :(
I'd actually like to see a new marine kit. As fun as endless waves of tacticals are, I'd like to see something new and different for them that isn't a tank or a flyer
At this point, no, we do NOT need more space marine kits. However, if they were to upgrade the marines in the future to make them slightly more true scale (without making older marines look like midgets) I'd support that. Keep them on the 32mm bases, just make them fill it out a bit more. Perhaps a 2% or 3% size increase.
jreilly89 wrote: I'd actually like to see a new marine kit. As fun as endless waves of tacticals are, I'd like to see something new and different for them that isn't a tank or a flyer
...Or...possibly...an update to some of the tanks? How old is the Rhino, now? Ten, twelve years?
What do people mean by a new marine? A new pattern of armor? A new type of job/soldier (like scouts/tacticals/devs)? An alternative method of creating marines without using a geneseed?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: May as well enjoy the ride then. And they most likely will, cause you'll get Vets and new players buying them. They will likely look really cool, of that I have no doubt.
Who knows maybe some of the Chapters will be upset that they are being replaced by Guillstartes and one will do the unthinkable and join the Tau. (pls no)
I thought the same thing lol. What if those marines get sad at being outdated? Will they come here? Please no :(
Too late, time for Astartes with Pulse Weapons and shoulder mounted missile pods fighting the Guillstartes with their Mk X CalthPattern Armor and Ultra Pattern Boltrifles.
jreilly89 wrote: I'd actually like to see a new marine kit. As fun as endless waves of tacticals are, I'd like to see something new and different for them that isn't a tank or a flyer
...Or...possibly...an update to some of the tanks? How old is the Rhino, now? Ten, twelve years?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: May as well enjoy the ride then. And they most likely will, cause you'll get Vets and new players buying them. They will likely look really cool, of that I have no doubt.
Who knows maybe some of the Chapters will be upset that they are being replaced by Guillstartes and one will do the unthinkable and join the Tau. (pls no)
I thought the same thing lol. What if those marines get sad at being outdated? Will they come here? Please no :(
Too late, time for Astartes with Pulse Weapons and shoulder mounted missile pods fighting the Guillstartes with their Mk X CalthPattern Armor and Ultra Pattern Boltrifles.
And y'know, this right here is kind of what I'm thinking we'll see.
40mm based "super" Astartes.
Good point, they have been lookīng for ways to bring more custodes to 40k
I've been thinking on the brief snippets we have, and something that occurs to me is this:
This might be another paradigm shift. Deathwatch were something implemented by Vulkan and the fledgling Inquisition during the War of the Beast. They needed quick, mobile teams that could operate independent of their Chapters.
Deathwatch 2.0 actually makes a kind of sense here. A new organization that can act as leaders and serve as inspiration to the Imperium in its darkest hour.
jreilly89 wrote: I'd actually like to see a new marine kit. As fun as endless waves of tacticals are, I'd like to see something new and different for them that isn't a tank or a flyer
...Or...possibly...an update to some of the tanks? How old is the Rhino, now? Ten, twelve years?
Over 10000 :-)
I have one or two that IRL are likely ... 25?
I think he means the latest design.
I got metal and plastic Rhino, Whirlwind and Vindicator - yours would be completely metal right?
More model options are only a good thing. I am sure that whatever they release, it will be an awesome kit, and will be amazing to model and paint.
That said, I would like to see non-Imperium factions get some more attention. What with Forge World taking care of Horus Heresy, the Imperium will be getitng plenty of attention there for a long while. Let's see some new Ork and Chaos stuff! How about some Kroot Mercenaries? Or maybe some Nid stuff?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: May as well enjoy the ride then. And they most likely will, cause you'll get Vets and new players buying them. They will likely look really cool, of that I have no doubt.
Who knows maybe some of the Chapters will be upset that they are being replaced by Guillstartes and one will do the unthinkable and join the Tau. (pls no)
I thought the same thing lol. What if those marines get sad at being outdated? Will they come here? Please no :(
Too late, time for Astartes with Pulse Weapons and shoulder mounted missile pods fighting the Guillstartes with their Mk X CalthPattern Armor and Ultra Pattern Boltrifles.
I think I feel faint.
You mean to tell me there is an issue with your Guilliseed Brother? Perhaps you should check with the Apothecaries.
Absolutely not!!!! There are too many imperium armies right now. A new SM chapter could be acceptable only if the general SM would vanish leaving only the specific chapters.
I always hope for a world without SM, but I know it's not gonna happen
Now more than ever we need a new Xenos faction. A completely new one with no ties to any of them. Perhaps battle brothers with Tau or something maybe not even that.
It's starting to feel very stifled creatively if every new thing revealed is Space Marine or IoM or from an existing faction.
cuda1179 wrote: At this point, no, we do NOT need more space marine kits. However, if they were to upgrade the marines in the future to make them slightly more true scale (without making older marines look like midgets) I'd support that. Keep them on the 32mm bases, just make them fill it out a bit more. Perhaps a 2% or 3% size increase.
On the flip side of this a lot of IG players would like new plastics that look less bulky than the current Catachans and Cadians. If IG had more human proportions and were slightly shorter that would also go a long way towards making SM look like the heavily armored superhumans they are supposed to be. (I certainly can't speak for all IG players, and have no idea what portion actually want this, this is just the impression I've gotten from Dakka.)
Hastings said IG future is hazy if I recall. :( WHYYY! There are now almost no humans working to save themselves. Just space marines. It's an empire of marines at this point.
For feth's sake you have way too many goddamned marine codices as it is. You have your normal kind your blue kind your furry kind your emo kind your vampire kind your spiky kind your barfy kind your angry kind your garage band kind and so many others.
I actually like Space Marines. Heck, I even like Ultramarines. I really don't like it when the game mostly revolves around Space Marines and all Space Marines really wish they were Ultramarines.
I understand that Space Marines are popular and that being popular they're going to get more support in the form of books and models. However, at a certain point if there are a lot of books and great/available models for a certain faction and not much for others people are going to gravitate towards the faction that gets more support.
Orks are my favorite, and I think that their models are mostly excellent. The warbuggy/wartrakk could use an update, but even then it's not such a big deal as I can kitbash whatever I want to make things look good. It would nice to have new plastic IG and if there were plastic Sisters I'd probably pick them up as well. New CSM and plastic Apsect Warriors would also be better than new Space Marines.
So, if there's a new type of Space Marines I hope they're ridiculously cutesy Chibi Marines that fully replace standard space marines. They would be the perfect accompaniment to Reboot Godzillaman if he decides to make the Imperium reasonable again.
RanVor: So what will they make Imperial Guard seem like? The dirt under the boots?
75Hastings69: Meat for the grinder, same as they've always been. Empire equivalent maybe militia?
That does not inspire hope to me. Seems like par for the course on IG treatment. If they had plans for a big new army of IG or updates he would haev said. Look at all his other posts there and see how much info he is telling people on just about everything. I'm sorry Melissia... they're SOB'ed. I wish I had a better prognosis in these end of days. One bolter shell to the head to end the pain in each soldier and then treat the ones who are salvageable in Age of Emperor. A litany to the Emperor in these dark days for the next week.
Spoiler:
Edit
The 40k community needs to learn a new term. SOB'ed. Sister of Battled'ed. Where you don't get updates or removed from the game anymore and exist in an update purgatory but sometimes make background apperances. The line will likely still be around to buy, but I doubt it will be updated. I don't even think the warhammer fantasy Empire has been updated in AoS and its been years. Just more and more sigmarines. So I don't think any factions with normal humans have updates in a loong time.
As much as I always appreciate new modelling options, would they FFS update some of their ageing sculpts before they develop new stuff. How old is the Abbadon sculpt? The most important baddie, and they haven't bothered their backsides, it's just plain strange. Also, plastic aspect warriors, and quickly. been waiting long enough.
Gamgee wrote: RanVor: So what will they make Imperial Guard seem like? The dirt under the boots?
75Hastings69: Meat for the grinder, same as they've always been. Empire equivalent maybe militia?
Your right I didn't remember it correctly. Still just infer a little. If space marines are getting kicked out for nu-marines then your telling me IG not being updated is impossible?
I still find it unlikely. Guard are a core part of 40k lore. The "NuMarines" I even find dubious due to the young age of the fairly empty account making the comments. I know how Disqus works, it's very easy to spoof names. So we will see.
Hastings has an incredibly accurate rumor tracker on dakka 80% with over 110 true or something like that. It very well could be a fake account, but I doubt it.
The end of gathering storm 3 mentions new weapons of war and cawl and RG working on something and ends on a cliff hanger.
Melissia wrote: I never said it was. I merely asked for evidence.
I still find it unlikely. Guard are a core part of 40k lore. The "NuMarines" I even find dubious due to the young age of the fairly empty account making the comments. I know how Disqus works, it's very easy to spoof names. So we will see.
I think people are over reacting, most likely what we're going to see is a new mark of power armor, to accompany a new founding of space marines. the idea that they'll be better then marines seems... doubtful. to be frank, there's no reason to, space marines are their best selling product, phasing them out for something new seems silly. but doing a new mark of power armor, combined with an exciting new founding seems like an obvious project.
Hastings has been right about everything so far. He called Deathwatch a year and a half before anyone else. He specifically says they will be better in all ways.
Gamgee wrote: Hastings has been right about everything so far. He called Deathwatch a year and a half before anyone else. He specifically says they will be better in all ways.
sure except you're assuming that this'll be a radical change. thing is, a radical change to your most popular army is well.. stupid.
Idk I feel like the closer we get to the new edition the mania of what happened to fantasy is slowly reaching critical mass. No matter how many times GW tells us they won't pull another end times people still find ways around it.
A new super space marine? Can anyone seriously say that out loud without laughing? Space Marines are the elite of the elite, and grey knights/deathwatch are the elite of the elite of the elite, but the new SPACE MARINE KNIGHTS OF GUILLIMAN are the elite of the elite of the elite of the elite!
GW does stupid stuff, but here I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. They aren't that stupid. I don't care what percentage this guys crystal ball visions are, even the top ones have been wrong repeatedly. So many people have been making up nonsense with this new edition coming around the corner that speculation is pointless. I'm just waiting to see what comes out before I set fire to my collection.
edit: even 80% accuracy means 1 out of every 5 things coming out of your mouth is squig-gak.
To be completely honest, no, 40k doesn't need a new Marine. However, provided that the new Marines are sufficiently interesting, and have good models and fluff, I'll welcome them into the setting happily.
Basic SM Tacticals are terrible and GW knows it. They are so bad, they get a 400-600pt handicap in free vehicles when taken in a "fluffy" Battle Company,
...There are sixty-nine different Space Marine armies in the game already (eighteen Chapter Tactics with the Space Marine book, all eighteen still usable with the Siege Assault Vanguard list, three variant Codexes, nine Traitor Legions, nineteen variations on the 30k Legion list, plus the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights). With one hundred and thirty-odd Special Characters between them.
What would we do with another one? Besides overlap with an existing army?
Gamgee wrote: Hastings said IG future is hazy if I recall. :( WHYYY! There are now almost no humans working to save themselves. Just space marines. It's an empire of marines at this point.
This is not that supriing isn't it ? GW clearly doesn't like stuff that they can't protect the IP of, and the current IG are the definition of unprotectable IP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AnomanderRake wrote: ...There are sixty-nine different Space Marine armies in the game already (eighteen Chapter Tactics with the Space Marine book, all eighteen still usable with the Siege Assault Vanguard list, three variant Codexes, nine Traitor Legions, nineteen variations on the 30k Legion list, plus the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights). With one hundred and thirty-odd Special Characters between them.
What would we do with another one? Besides overlap with an existing army?
There are outside FW no neutral / pirate factions. There could be a pletora of black shield like chapters post guilliman
Or there could just be more boring rehashes that just take the place of something more interesting that's not another marine-clone vomited out without any effort put in to it.
AnomanderRake wrote: ...There are sixty-nine different Space Marine armies in the game already (eighteen Chapter Tactics with the Space Marine book, all eighteen still usable with the Siege Assault Vanguard list, three variant Codexes, nine Traitor Legions, nineteen variations on the 30k Legion list, plus the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights). With one hundred and thirty-odd Special Characters between them.
What would we do with another one? Besides overlap with an existing army?
There are outside FW no neutral / pirate factions. There could be a pletora of black shield like chapters post guilliman
And...what would the 70th Space Marine variant do that the previous 69 don't?
Alternately: Why do we need Space Marine list #70 before Ork list #2?
And...what would the 70th Space Marine variant do that the previous 69 don't?
Alternately: Why do we need Space Marine list #70 before Ork list #2?
Look cool on the battle field, have cool fluff ally etc. In game... ehm not much of a difference really but meh is that really why you collect an army ?
Na I am actually not sure if I would rahter have ork list 2. My orks can be any ork amy I want them to be they just need a better set of rules no need for an other list with an other background really, while I would certainly jump on to pirate black shield marines to add to my inquisitors, instead of using my scummy marine conversions as count as puritan ones.
Can your Orks be a Kommando army that is sneaky and ambushes with brutal kunning? Cause I'd like to know how, outside of including some rather underwhelming Kommando units. And, again, what the HELL can a new spehss marny faction even BE at this point? They're kind of running out of colors even at this point.
Melissia wrote: Can your Orks be a Kommando army that is sneaky and ambushes with brutal kunning? Cause I'd like to know how, outside of including some rather underwhelming Kommando units. And, again, what the HELL can a new spehss marny faction even BE at this point? They're kind of running out of colors even at this point.
You kan, it is even possible to outflank a stompa pretty kunning but brutal if you ask me.
However orks could use a better codex with buffed rules, but you do not need an other list to be able to do this.
Don Savik wrote: Idk I feel like the closer we get to the new edition the mania of what happened to fantasy is slowly reaching critical mass. No matter how many times GW tells us they won't pull another end times people still find ways around it.
A new super space marine? Can anyone seriously say that out loud without laughing? Space Marines are the elite of the elite, and grey knights/deathwatch are the elite of the elite of the elite, but the new SPACE MARINE KNIGHTS OF GUILLIMAN are the elite of the elite of the elite of the elite!
GW does stupid stuff, but here I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. They aren't that stupid. I don't care what percentage this guys crystal ball visions are, even the top ones have been wrong repeatedly. So many people have been making up nonsense with this new edition coming around the corner that speculation is pointless. I'm just waiting to see what comes out before I set fire to my collection.
edit: even 80% accuracy means 1 out of every 5 things coming out of your mouth is squig-gak.
After they blew up the Warhammer world, and replaced it with plane walking fantasy marines I can't give them the benefit of the doubt for anything. By all accounts that's a majority view amongst their fan base. We keep being told to calm down they won't do the same with 40K, and then rumours of super space marines start doing the rounds amongst reliable rumour mongers. At this point I have to assume they will ruin everything I love about the IP, theres no evidence to show they won't.
oldzoggy wrote: However orks could use a better codex with buffed rules, but you do not need an other list to be able to do this.
And you don't need ffity seven codices to give Marines variety either but they're doing that. So I suggest they go all out and give EVERYONE fifty seven codices. More variety, more fun.
Gamgee wrote: Hastings has been right about everything so far. He called Deathwatch a year and a half before anyone else. He specifically says they will be better in all ways.
WS 5, BS 5, S 5, T 5, W 5, I 5, A 5, Ld 10, Sv 2+/4++ for a "New Tactical Super Space Marine"? 20 to a squad? 10 points per model each? With Guilliman Super-Bolters, Range 48", S 5, AP 2, Assault 3?
And...what would the 70th Space Marine variant do that the previous 69 don't?
Alternately: Why do we need Space Marine list #70 before Ork list #2?
Look cool on the battle field, have cool fluff ally etc. In game... ehm not much of a difference really but meh is that really why you collect an army ?
Na I am actually not sure if I would rahter have ork list 2. My orks can be any ork amy I want them to be they just need a better set of rules no need for an other list with an other background really, while I would certainly jump on to pirate black shield marines to add to my inquisitors, instead of using my scummy marine conversions as count as puritan ones.
WHY WOULD YOU PICK SPACE MARINE LIST #70 OVER SPACE MARINE LISTS #0-69?
Why can you make your Orks any Ork army you want them to be with one list but you need seventy lists to make your Space Marines what you want them to be?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: No they really, really don't need more Marines.
Plastic Sisters, Plastic non Cadian Guard, Exodites, and many more would be more interesting that yet another Marine.
You don't even need to go that far. Updated Guardians, updated Orks, an update to every vehicle in the game, plastic Aspect Warriors, replace all the Finecast Daemon units, give the Inquisition some actual models (and possibly a Codex that works)...
Seriously. There's a new power-armoured Space Marine kit on a monthly basis. The Eldar and the Orks are stuck with infantry that were old when 5e landed a decade ago. And everyone is stuck with ancient vehicles that are chock-full of warped parts and wasted space where they could have put all the gun options they don't make.
(The most annoying part about the vehicle thing is that you don't need to update (for instance) six kits for the Rhino chassis, you could fit them in two multi-kits and have room to spare to give them a bunch of the variant turret weapons you need to go to Forge World or third parties to get today. Your Wave Serpent/Falcon chassis could build all six tanks with one kit instead of five. It'd be easier and cheaper for GW and it'd be vastly more convenient for us.)
AnomanderRake wrote: [Seriously. There's a new power-armoured Space Marine kit on a monthly basis. The Eldar and the Orks are stuck with infantry that were old when 5e landed a decade ago.
The ork infantry is old, but I actually think it still looks pretty good. I wouldn't mind seeing new ork kits, but I think other armies could use new plastics first. (The warbuggy and wartrakk are pretty ancient though.)
And...what would the 70th Space Marine variant do that the previous 69 don't?
Alternately: Why do we need Space Marine list #70 before Ork list #2?
Look cool on the battle field, have cool fluff ally etc. In game... ehm not much of a difference really but meh is that really why you collect an army ?
Na I am actually not sure if I would rahter have ork list 2. My orks can be any ork amy I want them to be they just need a better set of rules no need for an other list with an other background really, while I would certainly jump on to pirate black shield marines to add to my inquisitors, instead of using my scummy marine conversions as count as puritan ones.
WHY WOULD YOU PICK SPACE MARINE LIST #70 OVER SPACE MARINE LISTS #0-69?
Why can you make your Orks any Ork army you want them to be with one list but you need seventy lists to make your Space Marines what you want them to be?
Exalted. We have enough rules and army variants for space marines to support many playstyles and units. Pretty much every SM unit is made useful in a formation, detachment, or variant army somewhere. Meanwhile half of the DE codex languishes due to lack of stuff, and xenos armies lose characters every edition.
And...what would the 70th Space Marine variant do that the previous 69 don't?
Alternately: Why do we need Space Marine list #70 before Ork list #2?
Look cool on the battle field, have cool fluff ally etc. In game... ehm not much of a difference really but meh is that really why you collect an army ?
Na I am actually not sure if I would rahter have ork list 2. My orks can be any ork amy I want them to be they just need a better set of rules no need for an other list with an other background really, while I would certainly jump on to pirate black shield marines to add to my inquisitors, instead of using my scummy marine conversions as count as puritan ones.
WHY WOULD YOU PICK SPACE MARINE LIST #70 OVER SPACE MARINE LISTS #0-69?
Why can you make your Orks any Ork army you want them to be with one list but you need seventy lists to make your Space Marines what you want them to be?
Exalted. We have enough rules and army variants for space marines to support many playstyles and units. Pretty much every SM unit is made useful in a formation, detachment, or variant army somewhere. Meanwhile half of the DE codex languishes due to lack of stuff, and xenos armies lose characters every edition.
Because that's why you see so much variety at every tournament come on man, it's either biker spam or a Gladius. There's literally no variety to SM lists.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: May as well enjoy the ride then. And they most likely will, cause you'll get Vets and new players buying them. They will likely look really cool, of that I have no doubt.
Who knows maybe some of the Chapters will be upset that they are being replaced by Guillstartes and one will do the unthinkable and join the Tau. (pls no)
I thought the same thing lol. What if those marines get sad at being outdated? Will they come here? Please no :(
Too late, time for Astartes with Pulse Weapons and shoulder mounted missile pods fighting the Guillstartes with their Mk X CalthPattern Armor and Ultra Pattern Boltrifles.
I would actually buy that. Considering a space marine is complete GAK and what I want actually is a space marine that doesn't suck complete GAK.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: May as well enjoy the ride then. And they most likely will, cause you'll get Vets and new players buying them. They will likely look really cool, of that I have no doubt.
Who knows maybe some of the Chapters will be upset that they are being replaced by Guillstartes and one will do the unthinkable and join the Tau. (pls no)
I thought the same thing lol. What if those marines get sad at being outdated? Will they come here? Please no :(
Too late, time for Astartes with Pulse Weapons and shoulder mounted missile pods fighting the Guillstartes with their Mk X CalthPattern Armor and Ultra Pattern Boltrifles.
I would actually buy that. Considering a space marine is complete GAK and what I want actually is a space marine that doesn't suck complete GAK.
Yeah, I realized later after thinking about it more that I too would buy those. Space Marines with power armor made to be Smaller Crisis Suits would be awesome.
I love Space Marines, they are every bit the iconic visage of the Warhammer 40,000 galaxy / game / hobby... But we're good on Space Marine variety. We do NOT need ubermarines per the rumour.
I think people are over reacting, most likely what we're going to see is a new mark of power armor, to accompany a new founding of space marines. the idea that they'll be better then marines seems... doubtful. to be frank, there's no reason to, space marines are their best selling product, phasing them out for something new seems silly. but doing a new mark of power armor, combined with an exciting new founding seems like an obvious project.
Agreed. I read rumours of a new power armour in the barrel about 9 months ago, so it's very possible that this is coming to fruition. Could be an elite squad, max 1 per army, WS5 BS5, or even just standard marines with some sort of improved armour / invul save. Extremely unlikely they'll make something to relegate current marines, and as for the speculation on Guard being phased out, that's just plain ludicrous.
I'm thinking this rumor may be about the Custodes. They are to Space Marines, what Space Marines are to IG. They have the whole 'Big guy in bright gold armor' that GW seems to be crushing on, and with the 'Emperor's Talon' Box set that's coming out, it looks like GW is defiantly interested in keeping that line going.
jreilly89 wrote: ...Because that's why you see so much variety at every tournament come on man, it's either biker spam or a Gladius. There's literally no variety to SM lists.
So obviously the solution to two out of 69 Space Marine lists having much tournament presence is to release list #70 instead of fixing lists #3-50.
(In the interests of fairness lists #51-69 are the Legiones Astartes variants, and probably aren't seeing tournament play because you're not looking at tournaments where 30k is legal.)
That's because some SM options are extremely overpowered, not because most of their options are garbage. A SM list with no formations or grav spam can still be better than several other armies.
No OP we do not. Marines already have:
>The most codex's available to use
>The largest number of formations available to use
>The most powerful formations
>The largest model range
>More characters than anyone else
>The most up to date model range in the game
>An ENTIRE VERSION OF 40K DEDICATED TO THEM(30K)
In the meantime the Sisters of battle languish with 3rd/4th edition rules and 20+ year old figures and the Guard stand by with 3rd edition infantry and 5th edition tanks crammed into 7th and kits that are nearly as old as the Sisters. Oh, and we just watched on of our iconic homeworlds fall and got NOTHING. Barely even a mention in the fluff.
master of ordinance wrote: Oh, and we just watched on of our iconic homeworlds fall and got NOTHING. Barely even a mention in the fluff.
I'm not sure a book virtually dedicated to Cadia equates to barely a mention
I'm voting yes!
More marines. It really is fighting the tide by going with no. Give me super super powered marine elites to lead my elite elite forces on elite missions.
Did anyone really think that marines wouldn't be getting more love ahead of the other races?
I'll be shocked if dreadknights arent suddenly fielded 'in limited numbers' by astartes. Super Centurions will be 'tested'.
I'll expect some form of super dreadnought as well to compete with the above and Knights.
I voted NO, there is too much focus on Space Marines and too much bloat. I am not against minor rule changes e.g. tactical squad equipment for fluffy reasons but there is too much bloat none the less. I preferred it when the '98 Dark Angels, Blood Angles, Space Wolves were balanced supplements that gave minor changes. I think there are other races with particular lines of models that need an update, a prime example are Ork Wartrakks and Buggies etc. Now with legal custodies, Grey Knights with stupid giant walking men and those hideous monstrosities called Centurions there is too much 'Super' in the Astartes arsenal. If from reading what has been said in the comments that they will be more true scale, I am not against that for atheistic reasons, but longer assault rifle-bolters and super-super armour just makes me want to throw up. By the sounds of things they will have 2+++++++++++ armour saves and 80'' bolter range to out do a Hammerhead.
In the thread 'do you support Guilliman or the High Lords' I sided with Guilliman, but if he teams up with Mars to make stupid Ad-mech-super-super Space Marines that no doubt go to enhance the glorification of the Ultramarines over everyone else, I change my mind and would back the High Lords against this Dark Age technology Fabius Bile style gene mutated abominational rabbit out the hat 'new legion' any day! Hell, if GW pump out 40k Sigmarine Astarte's over the genuine armies that need updates I'm throwing my lot in with Abbadon!
master of ordinance wrote: No OP we do not. Marines already have:
>The most codex's available to use
>The largest number of formations available to use
>The most powerful formations
>The largest model range
>More characters than anyone else
>The most up to date model range in the game
>An ENTIRE VERSION OF 40K DEDICATED TO THEM(30K)
In the meantime the Sisters of battle languish with 3rd/4th edition rules and 20+ year old figures and the Guard stand by with 3rd edition infantry and 5th edition tanks crammed into 7th and kits that are nearly as old as the Sisters. Oh, and we just watched on of our iconic homeworlds fall and got NOTHING. Barely even a mention in the fluff.
Maybe it's changed since I last looked, but space marines outsold the rest of the armies in 40k by a huuuge margin. step back and look at it from a company POV, it takes 5 currancy units to produce a kit. any kit, (simplification I know, but a tac squad is gonna have roughly the same price as a squad of new eldar troops to produce) faction A has 100 people playing it that can be counted on to buy at least 1 kit. faction B has 25 people that can be counted on to buy at least one kit.
looking at it from a busniess POV it's not hard to detirmine which faction gets the new kits.
It's almost like when you focus almost all of your advertisement on one product and ignore everything else, and produce new versions of that product constantly, that's what people know about and buy. Especially in a hobby like this where the best way to get people to buy things is to give them new things to buy.
....no...just....no.
New truescale models? Aww yea!
Some fluff abomination? No! A thousand times no!
They could even start releasing them in a board game so as not to interfere with current models directly. But for the love of all that is unholy, do not make a new type of space marine. Not even the emperor of mankind at his prime managed to get that right. Nor fabius bile who has not been under any ethic or moral obligations and has had the last 10k years to try.
Never mind the fact that it would be cranking the marysue-ness all the way up to eleven. Or that it tramples all over custodes being a thing. Or that this would be the 40k equivalent of aosification. Nothing would be safe anymore. All hail the ultramarine ultramarines which you know they would be called. And naturally the ultramarine ultradread would soon follow, can't have their new toys die too quickly now can they?
A plastic sisters army would be a better option as their current miniatures are extremely expensive and old. But they're also an imperial faction with power armours, basically female space marines, so releasing a plastic sisters army is pretty similar with the concept of adding other new releases for SM.
Why people its mixing the concept of more marines and new miniatures for then with more rules for marines when of all the other 3000 marine rules, only 5-6 work properly?
The solution to old marines being crap if not using Bike Spam and some formations its not make more marines ,its to make better rules!
Its ironic that I'm finding Age of Sigmar more and more apelling not only as a game but a as product line than 40k.
Space Marines have 30k to play with others Space Marines... I understand the economical reasons for this but... urgh.
We are gonna end like Apple. Why have variety when you can have the shinny new Marine every 6 months.
Roknar wrote: All hail the ultramarine ultramarines which you know they would be called.
If they are Ultramarine Ultramarines does that make them Ultrasquares?
The product of mixing an astartes ultramarine with a primarch ultramarine. The inception of a new age of ultra marines.
Probably on square bases at the very least.
The basic Space Marine has changed very little since Rogue Trader, and despite things like ATSKNF and cost decreases, they haven't kept up with the power creep in the game.
Bikes and Cents are stupid. When they came out with bikes, I had to shake my head. The models are dumb and it seemed like they felt they had to give Marines bikes just because Eldar had them.
As someone pointed out, they tacked on free transports, Obsec everywhere, etc as a band-aid, but that leaves you with very limited ways to be competitive, or even just have fun playing marines. It's not actually all that fun to have to rely on your opponent simply not being able to quite completely table you in 5-6 turns to be able to win, which is what you're left with if you're playing Gladius at certain points levels.
I can't express how frustrating it is to have to throw down the points for Sternguard, which die just as easy as regular marines, just to get more than 1 spcl / hvy weapon and 1 combi per squad. Marines are supposed to be the best equipped troops in the Imperium. It's a little ridiculous.
The problem is that they locked the Codex Astartes into the fluff, and made the limitations on Spc/ Hvy part of that before all these other armies got squads that have what are essentially spc/hvy as part of their basic equipment that every model gets. It occurs to me just now that maybe the reason they brought back Gulliman is so the writers can justify a reorganization of the long obsolete Codex Astartes. really the notion that 1000 guys is supposed to make a dent in a conflict even just over a single planet has always struck me as completely absurd. My hope is that Gulliman will bring the Legions back.
List options aside, they're long overdue for a power bump. They don't reflect how elite and powerful they're supposed to be in even the least hyperbolic fluff. I don't know what the best way to do that is, but I really want my marines not to die as easy, and be able to hurt more than just basic infantry effectively. I don't mind paying more points for that as long as it's balanced with the kind of stuff Eldar and Tau can take.
I welcome a new Mark of Armour, but if it makes all our existing SM armies obsolete, that's going to hurt them bad with their core customer base. I spent a lot of time, energy, and money putting together a heavilly converted force of relic armoured Marines, and if they're going to put them out to pasture, or make them such a gakky option that I'll have no reason to field them at all anymore, I'm not going to be fething pleased.
Marine bikes are very very old - they are in the very first Space Marine army lists back in the Book of the Astronomican including the sidecar version.
Centurions - agree with the righteous Hate
The basic marine has changed quite a bit - they were not all T4 for one thing.
The other issue with making Marines match the fluff is that you then start needing less and less of them for an army - and that's not what GW's model is based on - they have poured such a disproportionate amount of effort into them that its the tail that wags the dog to the nth degree.
The rules and balance is as everyone agrees a complete mess - Maybe 8th Ed will sort out this but I doubt it.
There are some marine stuff that is right up there or even beyond the Eldar and Tau cheese and there is some that is down amongst the other factions - and that the issue - the other non snowflake factions are not getting the love to keep up with any of the Special Needs Factions.
So you have Sisters - one crappy formation and a brand new awesome character set that is seen more with Marines than Sisters as for one thing she does not have Act of Faith so they can't use theirs. Do Sisters get a Gladius formation - nope. Do Guard, Do Orks, Do Tyranids
Dark Eldar - unless you play one version of them they were stamped on hard at the same time as the Craftworld Eldar - already overpowered were pushed up further and further.
Orks and Tryanids are increasingly poor relations and the Guard is weaker and weaker but paying the points for being weak.
Weboflies wrote: The basic Space Marine has changed very little since Rogue Trader, and despite things like ATSKNF and cost decreases, they haven't kept up with the power creep in the game.
Bikes and Cents are stupid. When they came out with bikes, I had to shake my head. The models are dumb and it seemed like they felt they had to give Marines bikes just because Eldar had them.
As someone pointed out, they tacked on free transports, Obsec everywhere, etc as a band-aid, but that leaves you with very limited ways to be competitive, or even just have fun playing marines. It's not actually all that fun to have to rely on your opponent simply not being able to quite completely table you in 5-6 turns to be able to win, which is what you're left with if you're playing Gladius at certain points levels.
I can't express how frustrating it is to have to throw down the points for Sternguard, which die just as easy as regular marines, just to get more than 1 spcl / hvy weapon and 1 combi per squad. Marines are supposed to be the best equipped troops in the Imperium. It's a little ridiculous.
The problem is that they locked the Codex Astartes into the fluff, and made the limitations on Spc/ Hvy part of that before all these other armies got squads that have what are essentially spc/hvy as part of their basic equipment that every model gets. It occurs to me just now that maybe the reason they brought back Gulliman is so the writers can justify a reorganization of the long obsolete Codex Astartes. really the notion that 1000 guys is supposed to make a dent in a conflict even just over a single planet has always struck me as completely absurd. My hope is that Gulliman will bring the Legions back.
List options aside, they're long overdue for a power bump. They don't reflect how elite and powerful they're supposed to be in even the least hyperbolic fluff. I don't know what the best way to do that is, but I really want my marines not to die as easy, and be able to hurt more than just basic infantry effectively. I don't mind paying more points for that as long as it's balanced with the kind of stuff Eldar and Tau can take.
Good analysis. Mostly agreed. I don't exactly hate the bikes, but it is annoying how prevalent they've become. They just outclass the foot sloggers completely and of course the benefits for characters are significant.
I welcome a new Mark of Armour, but if it makes all our existing SM armies obsolete, that's going to hurt them bad with their core customer base. I spent a lot of time, energy, and money putting together a heavilly converted force of relic armoured Marines, and if they're going to put them out to pasture, or make them such a gakky option that I'll have no reason to field them at all anymore, I'm not going to be fething pleased.
Yeah, that's my worry as well. My marine collection is not terribly large, but each model is painstakingly converted...and I have a huge pile of still unbuilt marines. The new models (assuming the pic was genuine) look good and the marines definitely need a power bump (speaking about the individual marines, not about the army as a whole) but If they invalidate or sideline the old marines it will be massively annoying.
I voted no. Custodes already cover ''stronger, faster, better equipped etc.'' superhumans. What would be the point of bringing Custodes into 40k if at the same time we get Custodes 2.0 but mass produced and in blue (uber ultramarines)?
I say yes, and only yes if it is to separate all the chapters that don't adhere to the standard SM rules like Black Templar and Iron Hands. I am so sick of nearly all the chapters losing their fluff and becoming smurfs light or wannabe smurfs. If talking models would love to see Iron Hands get back their unique unit the Iron Father (and fixing their fluff at the same time) and maybe a special character or two.
Shadow Walker wrote: I voted no. Custodes already cover ''stronger, faster, better equipped etc.'' superhumans. What would be the point of bringing Custodes into 40k if at the same time we get Custodes 2.0 but mass produced and in blue (uber ultramarines)?
The same reason that Astartes were created in the first place?
Weboflies wrote: The basic Space Marine has changed very little since Rogue Trader, and despite things like ATSKNF and cost decreases, they haven't kept up with the power creep in the game.
Would it be fair to say that this is true for the basic infantry squads of every army? In terms of power creep, I mean. Eldar can put out a ridiculous amount of firepower but it doesn't seem to be the Guardians that are doing it.
It seems to me that 7th edition allows some units to put out ludicrous amounts of firepower, and allows other units to stack buffs and become almost unkillable, and puts very little restrictions on the number of those units that a player can take. In such an environment I think that basic infantry is really going to suffer.
One nice thing about 7th edition is that if you have an idea for a fun and fluffy army you can make it work, but that flexibility also allows for a lot of minmaxing. I hope the next edition can manage to keep the flexibility but tone down the minmaxing a bit. I'm sure that's way easier said than done.
My personal preference is that basic Troops choices be one of the best choices in any codex, and not just a tax. I like the idea that Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support can do a lot of damage in the right situation, but for the points a normal Troops unit (like a Tactical Squad) is going to be a good choice because it can be useful outside of a narrow specialty. Again, that's probably easier said than done.
Yeah, basic troops choices have stayed static while everything else has shifted up in power. Which is a shame, as thematically they should be encouraged to be taken more than any other kind of unit. It's gotten to the point that people reacted as if it was a breath of fresh air when they can take non-troops as troops back in fifth, and now they don't even necessarily need them at all with the right formation.
going to echo the new more powerful marines likely just being the Custodes which we have leaked pics of box set, units, and a new codex... so pretty convincing evidence for them being the new more elite than space marines army. Another possibility though unlikely might be a reworked fallen angels who side with papa smurf and cypher.
as for all the talk of a normal tac marine being not good... they are better than average for troops. 3+ armor, always regrouping, combat squads, a decent statline all for 14 points per model is something orks, tyranids, dark elder, guard, chaos demons. really only Craftworld eldar, necrons, mechanicum, and tau are arguably any better for the points (scatter laser bikes being way above the power anymodel should get for the points, the rest being better for the points but only just slightly)
as for all the talk of a normal tac marine being not good... they are better than average for troops. 3+ armor, always regrouping, combat squads, a decent statline all for 14 points per model is something orks, tyranids, dark elder, guard, chaos demons. really only Craftworld eldar, necrons, mechanicum, and tau are arguably any better for the points (scatter laser bikes being way above the power anymodel should get for the points, the rest being better for the points but only just slightly)
It's true, marines are still awesome as a basic troop, especially when compared to other basic troops. Unfortunately the game has pushed many other units beyond the reach of the un-upgraded marine, and people can build entire armies out of these units that are nigh-undamageable by the basic models. It's not that those models shouldn't exist (IMO), but the balance is off.
However, If you restrict yourself/your group to armies which are more basic-infantry focused, Marines vs. Orks or Marines vs. Eldar Guardians/Most Aspect Warriors still make for really good games.
If you show up with Marine infantry with Missile Launchers vs. a Riptide Wing or similar, it's not a fun game. Which is too bad, that's a sort of thing which should be viable. If whatever GW is doing can help that situation, I'm all for it. I'd like to be able to fire anti-tank rockets at a big machine and have some effect.
I don't know. Depends on how you look at it. Tactical marines are a pretty expensive tax for a unit that can do nothing in the 7th ed meta. I'd like to lose fewer points when that ion accelerator hits, myself.
as for all the talk of a normal tac marine being not good... they are better than average for troops. 3+ armor, always regrouping, combat squads, a decent statline all for 14 points per model is something orks, tyranids, dark elder, guard, chaos demons. really only Craftworld eldar, necrons, mechanicum, and tau are arguably any better for the points (scatter laser bikes being way above the power anymodel should get for the points, the rest being better for the points but only just slightly)
It's true, marines are still awesome as a basic troop, especially when compared to other basic troops. Unfortunately the game has pushed many other units beyond the reach of the un-upgraded marine, and people can build entire armies out of these units that are nigh-undamageable by the basic models. It's not that those models shouldn't exist (IMO), but the balance is off.
However, If you restrict yourself/your group to armies which are more basic-infantry focused, Marines vs. Orks or Marines vs. Eldar Guardians/Most Aspect Warriors still make for really good games.
If you show up with Marine infantry with Missile Launchers vs. a Riptide Wing or similar, it's not a fun game. Which is too bad, that's a sort of thing which should be viable. If whatever GW is doing can help that situation, I'm all for it. I'd like to be able to fire anti-tank rockets at a big machine and have some effect.
yea, shooting and high power are sort of out of hand. if your meta is friendly and people play fluff lists that are actual fluffy like a company of mostly marines with a few dreadnaughts and bikes or tau with fire warriors, crisis suits, stealth suits and broadsides with railguns you get a fun game without just picking up infantry. personally I have no interest in facing a 3-4 imperial knight list and have no problem saying I would rather not play that person
Martel732 wrote:I don't know. Depends on how you look at it. Tactical marines are a pretty expensive tax for a unit that can do nothing in the 7th ed meta. I'd like to lose fewer points when that ion accelerator hits, myself.
yea, if your meta is hyper competitive troops of any kind have turned into a tax (beyond scat bikes with their move out of LOS in combat phase and regenerating necrons) honestly the power level of shooting needs to be put in check and infantry need a chance to survive
They're releasing plastic Heresy-era armor. I'm not butthurt about that. It also seems like it would make for easy conversions for CSM players wanting their dudes to be veterans from way back.
I'm a little tiny bit butthurt about the Custodes coming to 40k. It seems weird to have them outside of the Imperial Palace. Oh well, I'm sure they'll come up with a reason for it.
The thing that has me a little sad isn't so much that the Custodes are coming, but rather I had this tiny bit of hope that they would get released as part of a boxed set with new plastic Brides of the Emperor/Sisters of Battle as part of an Age of Apostasy boxed game. Heck, they could have thrown in some plastic Frateris Templars in there that could be used as a new IG regiment.
Mr Morden wrote: Marine bikes are very very old - they are in the very first Space Marine army lists back in the Book of the Astronomican including the sidecar version.
The basic marine has changed quite a bit - they were not all T4 for one thing.
The rules and balance is as everyone agrees a complete mess - Maybe 8th Ed will sort out this but I doubt it.
True, although at the very beginning, all the armies kind of had everything, in theory at least if not models for them. I think there was even IG jetbikes... That may have just been a piece of art... As time went on, they started focusing the armies a little more and giving them their character. That's when Marines got their T bump, Rhinos, new models, and the bikes were kind of these klunky, ugly old things that seemed obsolete. I was referring to later on when the plastic bike kits came out.
There's been some people making a good point here that all the basic infantry has been left behind, although I think Tau has some real strengths in that area, and if you consider Aspect Warriors basic infantry, I think they fit into the Meta just fine. As always, we have those lamenting the fate of Sisters, Orks, etc. I think at this point the fact that they need an update goes without saying.
Marine Player are an IMMENSE proportion of their market share, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect GW to work on other niche armies at the cost of taking their poker out of that fire. GW has demonstrated as of late that they're more than capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. Those other Factions desperately need love, but I don't think GW needs to backburner their flagship army to do that, and I don't think that has any bearing on this topic, personally.
The idea has been floated that some sort of "General's handbook" will come out along with 8th that will rebalance all the factions in one go, and that that is where the Dataslates will live and see updating, and Faction specific releases that are released going forward will be more akin to Angels of Death and Chaos Legions which will focus on Formations, etc. That gives me hope. I also LOVE the idea that I will be able easily see where enemy Codexes are at and what the armies are capable of without dropping $60 each for every codex out there.
Weboflies wrote: Marine Player are an IMMENSE proportion of their market share, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect GW to work on other niche armies at the cost of taking their poker out of that fire. GW has demonstrated as of late that they're more than capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. Those other Factions desperately need love, but I don't think GW needs to backburner their flagship army to do that, and I don't think that has any bearing on this topic, personally.
This is true, and I don't have a problem with GW wanting to spend more time on what makes them the most money.
At a certain point though, when the large majority of releases are for one faction and many other factions have seen limited or no new releases for many years I think you'll be pushing people towards the faction that is getting all the love. Then GW puts even more time into rules and models for that faction, and new players are even more likely to start collecting it and old players are even more likely to ditch their favored faction because all that's available is 15 year old metal models.
You can see how there might be a feedback loop, right?
Weboflies wrote: The idea has been floated that some sort of "General's handbook" will come out along with 8th that will rebalance all the factions in one go, and that that is where the Dataslates will live and see updating, and Faction specific releases that are released going forward will be more akin to Angels of Death and Chaos Legions which will focus on Formations, etc. That gives me hope. I also LOVE the idea that I will be able easily see where enemy Codexes are at and what the armies are capable of without dropping $60 each for every codex out there.
I would also welcome the AoS model when it comes to books.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: New Space Marines will also be gender inclusive, so GW can finally get rid of the Sisters all together.
Why not also species inclusive so that we can finally get rid of codexes altogether and just finally run spess mehreens vs spess mehreens. Ah, wait, it's 30k.
I have a feeling that the regular Astartes will become the new Guard. And that Rawbutt's Chosen will become the new elites (i.e. Mary Sues that put the Grey Knights to shame).
I have a feeling that the regular Astartes will become the new Guard. And that Rawbutt's Chosen will become the new elites (i.e. Mary Sues that put the Grey Knights to shame).
I have a feeling that the regular Astartes will become the new Guard. And that Rawbutt's Chosen will become the new elites (i.e. Mary Sues that put the Grey Knights to shame).
AAAaaaaannnddd CSm kits (excepte for 1Ksons kits) are still mostly incomplet or 15+years old...
But hey sure, give Marines ANOTHER fething new models range and faction to ally with, i mean its not like they allready have a dozen of those right?...
Blackie wrote: I think 40k should get rid of generic space marines. BA, SW, DA, GK are certainly enough. There are also AM and sisters, too many human armies.
Sounds good.
I could always use 30k models to spread the Wolfity Wolf a bit thinner.
I am certain the new marines mentioned are just a wider exploration in Custodes; which are getting a codex on the 25th btw! Although i wish marines had been made slightly larger, this would indeed invalidate all current models, which i think are perfectly adequate.
I bet GW has realized that the baseline marine performs NOTHING like the fluff (such that it is) indicates. Since T5 is the magical toughness for infantry now, not T4, this is going to be their "fix". Tactical marines become an ever bigger liability.
The new marines will be designed to cope with the reality of the windrider, necron warrior, and firewarrior. Everyone can go get fethed.
Blackie wrote: Yeah I forgot about skitarii/ad mech.... seems like humans should fight among themselves forever, but the 40k background says a different story.
I currently avoid playing an imperium army against another imperium army, it doesn't make sense to me.
Plenty of Imperial armies don't like the Space Wolves.
Almost no one plays 30k with other factions than marines. I wish there was greater 30k army diversification and a Xenos army for it that is not Eldar/Orks. I might just consider it. Even then marine players would bitch we are infecting their game and other crap.
I mean look at 40k now. Almost nothing but Space Marines... it's so close to being just an inferior clone to 30k for marine vs marine play. I don't doubt it'a s very real possibility all the Xenos might stop getting support for 8th 40k. The only xenos army released in recent history was the subfaciton GSC for nids and it was a pretty small release compared to what is coming in AoS.
I'm starting to feel like I need to just move to AoS. Such a more forward facing game and community and more inclusive of other gamers tastes than 40k's.... festering space marine cults. For god sake we have a Primarch ruling the Imperium now instead of the Emperor for all intents and purposes. This is space marine fan spank taken to such huge extremes. The only thing left to do at this point is just axe humans and anything else in existence except marine vs chaos marines.
Baseless conjecture: maybe the Emperor will get killed/"released" and ascend to full godhood as a warp entity. The new super-duper marines might be "Imperial" daemons in power armor.
That might actually be kind of cool, although if The Emprah's daemons get banished back into the warp instead of truly dying and he can just send them back that wouldn't that be an awful lot like Stormcast Eternals?
They should of stopped before Dreadknights...everything extra since has been unnecessary and one of those 'oh we've always had these weird flying ships, special walkers, centurions, GRAV, and Chaos Marines are like "WTF? Why don't we have Centurions and GRAV? The HELL!?
Seriously need to take out the Lucille grade nerf bat and hit EVERYTHING space marine...and grey knights twice over.
So briney around here. I'm choking on all the salt....
This notion that people buy Space Marines because that line is supported, and not because they're the most appealing faction in the game to them.... Sorry guys, I don't buy it. It's hogwash.
There's a specific kind of gamer who will pick up an army because the meta favors it, but it's the minority. People are going to put dozen, maybe hundreds, possibly thousands of hours collecting, painting, and learning to play an army just to bully other nerds with an OP list? No. Most of us play the armies we play because they excite our imagination. Space Marines are human enough to be relateable, and Uber enough to represent something we wish we could aspire to be. It's just a winning formula.
Only a certain number of people are going to be excited by space bugs or S&M elves to the degree required to put in the time, effort, and money to build an army. It doesn't matter how many new models or rules they release.
That said, some support would increase the sales on some of these Xenos factions from where they are now, I'm sure. GW has alienated (no pun intended) a lot of those players, and needs to do something to get them invested in the game again.
A lot of this stuff we're still seeing comin out was likely in the pipe before the new management took over at GW. Let's see where they take Eighth. I have a feeling that a lot of the things we're seeing now were supposed to BE eighth, but they want a clean slate, so they can do it right. It really seems like they give a gak again, and I'm really hopeful about it.
Weboflies wrote: This notion that people buy Space Marines because that line is supported, and not because they're the most appealing faction in the game to them.... Sorry guys, I don't buy it. It's hogwash.
So what new models are there for Sisters players or potential Sisters players to buy?
The fact is, if GW doesn't make a new product, people can't buy the new product. GW makes tons of Space Marine products with lots of variety and tons of options... so there's more stuff for them to buy. More chances for each individual item to be the one that appeals to them and gets them to shell out money. For a hobby like 40k, having only old stuff to buy and almost no new rules means people eventually just don't need to buy any more of the product and they have all they'll ever need or want.
I don't think you read my post. See the part where I aknowledge that sales have benn supressed on a lot of the other lines due to neglect? The thing is, if and when they do pick up the ball on armies like sisters, it's not going to do anything to challenge Space Marines's standing as the most popular faction, and that's because SM is the faction that, based on their ethos, design, and fluff, is the most appealing to the kind of people who are likely to invest in taking part in this game.
I think a lot of people start playing Space Marines because they're cool. I think they're really cool, but I don't play them because I'm a hipster (also because my brother plays them). They're also a good starter army because they're relatively affordable and easy to paint.
Space Marines are always going to be popular, and it makes sense for GW to release more stuff for more popular armies. That said, if some other armies suffer from severe neglect then they are not going to be as popular as they could be. I think IG would be a lot more popular if they had a wider range of plastics available, and Sisters would be more a lot more popular if they had any plastics available. I would disagree slightly about the rules, as a lot of people pick up a second or third army, and I think they might be less inclined to go with an army that has had bad rules for a while.
Weboflies wrote: I don't think you read my post. See the part where I aknowledge that sales have benn supressed on a lot of the other lines due to neglect? The thing is, if and when they do pick up the ball on armies like sisters, it's not going to do anything to challenge Space Marines's standing as the most popular faction, and that's because SM is the faction that, based on their ethos, design, and fluff, is the most appealing to the kind of people who are likely to invest in taking part in this game.
The problem with that rhetoric...though I do see and acknowledge your point, is 'most' people don't collect space marine armies because they 'like' them. Per Se. They are heavily collected because 1. They are in almost(if not EVERY) every starter set, so someone getting into the game, already has the 'meat' of a space marine army in their lap.
2. Rule for rule, punch for punch, dice for dice, Space Marines are superior in the long run of the rules to every other army. (Note I'm lumping the specialists in with the vanilla here.) People and cry about the Eldar, and Tau, but other then the Crons (Who still have a small number of choices to collect in comparison) there isn't a stronger core of armies to pick from. Pick even the 'weakest' in meta chapter and it'll have the tools to win at the very least in a semi-competitive environment. Where as 'sometimes' a xenos army is scary, or 'top tier', it doesn't last as it's often Lucilled in the skull back under the good boys in power armor next edition. So they appeal to WAACers out there.
3. Space Marines have some of the most unnecessary units in the game that destroy the reason to take other units, just to name examples: Stormhawks, Centurions (something that should have NEVER happened), Hunter/Stalker (pic one! IG only has the Hydra for example, and other armies rarely have a dedicated AA tank, let alone TWO!), ALL of the Horus Heresy stuff now popping up for use in 40k including Contemptors and special termie suits. Corvus Blackstar, Dreadknights, Stormwolf/fang, and all of the Adeptus Custodes.
4. Speaking of every time we get buried by yet another WAAC bait unit for Space Marines, with it's fancy this and that's, there's the fluff instances where this stuff gets shoehorned in and crammed down our throats like it's 'always' been there. Stormravens used to be BA and GK only and very few in number, but GW retconned it and now EVERYONE has them in the hundreds! (slight exaggeration.) If GRAV, Centurions, all these flyers and overdesigned junk were always there? Why don't Chaos Space Marines have them? Now OLD Fluff said things like Land Speeders and Razorbacks, were introduced AFTER the Heresy, so that would explain that well enough, but don't give me this junk that Space Marines get all these fancy toys, that they'd had since the Emperor left Terra now, JUST because you want to sell kits.
Weboflies wrote: So briney around here. I'm choking on all the salt....
This notion that people buy Space Marines because that line is supported, and not because they're the most appealing faction in the game to them.... Sorry guys, I don't buy it. It's hogwash.
.
Perhaps if something other than Marines was released for once.... Perhaps if GW released new shiny for something other than Marines..... Perhaps if another race had the slightest mention.... Perhaps if Marines where not shoehorned into EVERYTHING, even the last stand of another factions iconic world..... Perhaps if the glory boys where not made out to be the bestest of the bestest..... perhaps if GW actually supported another line...... Perhaps if other lines where not forced to rely on overpriced and poorly sculpted 18+ year old models for the majority of their units (and usually their core choices)......
Yeah, once you ignore all of the above the success of Space marines is obviously due to them being really good/everyones dream.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Baseless conjecture: maybe the Emperor will get killed/"released" and ascend to full godhood as a warp entity. The new super-duper marines might be "Imperial" daemons in power armor.
That might actually be kind of cool, although if The Emprah's daemons get banished back into the warp instead of truly dying and he can just send them back that wouldn't that be an awful lot like Stormcast Eternals?
That's what the Legion of the Damned are speculated to be.
For what it's worth, when I got into 40k I very intentionally chose space marines because I knew the army would be supported. Coming from WFB, I knew how GW did their thing, and I knew most armies tend to languish in purgatory for extended periods of time, except space marines. I really wanted to play either guards or orcs, coming from WFB where I played empire, bretonnia, and orcs. Glad I didn't, looking back and playing games against those armies now.
When I say supported I don't mean top tier competitive either. But they are guaranteed to have their rules and models updated every edition, and often throughout editions. Even if a release seems a bit lackluster, I know it won't be forever and there's a good chance someone at GW actually notices and does something about it. Even the "bad" units for space marines aren't anywhere near bottom tier unusable stuff.
So the Colonial Marines are updating their arsenal yet again to suit current military trends and this time going true-scale to do it right.
Sounds legit. (I saw a photo, probably fake, but it had a boltgun with a rail system.. lol)
Still, I want updated Imperial Guard.. I mean come on, I was watching a documentary about ISIS and one of the soldiers fighting them was wearing a bloody MICH helmet and what looked like a recent uniform.
This Cold War Cadia stuff is just boring.. it shouldn't represent what we consider standard military anymore (guardsmen still drink water out of water bottles FFS), I look at Tau Firewarriors and weep.
The problem with that rhetoric...though I do see and acknowledge your point, is 'most' people don't collect space marine armies because they 'like' them. Per Se. They are heavily collected because 1. They are in almost(if not EVERY) every starter set, so someone getting into the game, already has the 'meat' of a space marine army in their lap.
That's crazy talk. People put hundreds/ thousands of hours/ dollars into something not because they like it? Why is the other faction in each starter box not equally popular then? Why do you think many of those people buy the starter box in the first place?
2. Rule for rule, punch for punch, dice for dice, Space Marines are superior in the long run of the rules to every other army. (Note I'm lumping the specialists in with the vanilla here.) People and cry about the Eldar, and Tau, but other then the Crons (Who still have a small number of choices to collect in comparison) there isn't a stronger core of armies to pick from. Pick even the 'weakest' in meta chapter and it'll have the tools to win at the very least in a semi-competitive environment. Where as 'sometimes' a xenos army is scary, or 'top tier', it doesn't last as it's often Lucilled in the skull back under the good boys in power armor next edition. So they appeal to WAACers out there.
They have been consistently good over the years. So have Eldar and Tau, I'll believe either of those armies are going to get nerfed when I see it. Exactly what percentage of GW's customer base are WAAC players? How many of those people are choosing Marines over Tau and Eldar? How much of GW's customer base are collectors who don't even play?
Perhaps if something other than Marines was released for once.... Perhaps if GW released new shiny for something other than Marines..... Perhaps if another race had the slightest mention.... Perhaps if Marines where not shoehorned into EVERYTHING, even the last stand of another factions iconic world..... Perhaps if the glory boys where not made out to be the bestest of the bestest..... perhaps if GW actually supported another line...... Perhaps if other lines where not forced to rely on overpriced and poorly sculpted 18+ year old models for the majority of their units (and usually their core choices)......
Yeah, once you ignore all of the above the success of Space marines is obviously due to them being really good/everyones dream.
Hogwash. Every Xenos army except Tyranids has a 7th edition codex. Dark Eldar got tons of new models. Eldar on a few occasions has gotten all kinds of new OP gak, Harlequins got a new codex and models. Tau gets more broken all the time, Genestealer Cults just dropped with a whole new line of minis and a lot of powerful abilities, Chaos just got oodles of stuff
No one's trying to say there isn't armies out there that have been left behind, but the point here is that your assertion that people don't really like marines and they spend thousands of dollars and hours on their marine armies for any other reason than that they like them is a joke. Any cases of that being true are anecdotal and not representative of the norm whatsoever. Honestly, why do you guys play whatever armies you play? You throw down the cash regardless of their power level or support level. Why would Marine players be any different?
You guys are both doing a lot of moaning about SM getting a lot of options/ support, but shouldn't the most popular army get support? Should they give MORE support than they do to Marines to Xenos armies that don't generate as much interest? GW is a business, not a Social Justice advocacy group for rebels and aliens that don't exist in real life.
You guys are both doing a lot of moaning about SM getting a lot of options/ support, but shouldn't the most popular army get support? Should they give MORE support than they do to Marines to Xenos armies that don't generate as much interest? GW is a business, not a Social Justice advocacy group for rebels and aliens that don't exist in real life.
The problem is the current model is a self fulfilling prophecy - if you continually focus on one product line by ensuing that they are always having new models, always in every starter box set, have extremely powerful rules then it is going to sell very well - then you say hey - look at the sales for Marines better than anyone else - so lets make more of them - then do that for decades and you have the situation we have now. Everything is geared towards selling Marines and well some other stuff that they can fight - if you want but hey look Marines.
As you say Eldar and Tau have been given considerable (well in the Eldar case heavily OP) rules and model support - and guess what they sell well - imagine if you did that with other neglected factions!
Also they keep focussing on the same Chapters of Marines so they have to produce more and more outlandish "flavour" units for those same Chapters - so rather than producing the fluff based elite Terminators for Salamanders, or sniper /infiltration squads for Raven Guard for example we get Wolfy Wolf Wolf on his Wolf waving his Wolf sword and the Blood and Dark Angels are not much better. I used to love Space Wolves and Dark Angels but now.....
Slap in some cheese formations to help Marines win as well just in case you are not already tempted.
Even when models are produced for other Factions like St Celestine, they make it so she is used most effectively by Marines rather than her own Faction - they didn't bother giving her Acts of Faith.
Dark Eldar got a dismal 7th Ed Codex which is only usable in a few limited ways.
You guys are both doing a lot of moaning about SM getting a lot of options/ support, but shouldn't the most popular army get support? Should they give MORE support than they do to Marines to Xenos armies that don't generate as much interest? GW is a business, not a Social Justice advocacy group for rebels and aliens that don't exist in real life.
The problem is the current model is a self fulfilling prophecy - if you continually focus on one product line by ensuing that they are always having new models, always in every starter box set, have extremely powerful rules then it is going to sell very well - then you say hey - look at the sales for Marines better than anyone else - so lets make more of them - then do that for decades and you have the situation we have now. Everything is geared towards selling Marines and well some other stuff that they can fight - if you want but hey look Marines.
As you say Eldar and Tau have been given considerable (well in the Eldar case heavily OP) rules and model support - and guess what they sell well - imagine if you did that with other neglected factions!
Also they keep focussing on the same Chapters of Marines so they have to produce more and more outlandish "flavour" units for those same Chapters - so rather than producing the fluff based elite Terminators for Salamanders, or sniper /infiltration squads for Raven Guard for example we get Wolfy Wolf Wolf on his Wolf waving his Wolf sword and the Blood and Dark Angels are not much better. I used to love Space Wolves and Dark Angels but now.....
Slap in some cheese formations to help Marines win as well just in case you are not already tempted.
Even when models are produced for other Factions like St Celestine, they make it so she is used most effectively by Marines rather than her own Faction - they didn't bother giving her Acts of Faith.
Dark Eldar got a dismal 7th Ed Codex which is only usable in a few limited ways.
Marines have always been the most popular, and always will. It's just the most appealing faction to the most people fluff wise. Accept it.
I guess you missed the min 3 times I said myself that the neglected armies would generate more sales with more support. HOWEVER, they will never sell as well as Marines, and that's just the simple truth.
You loved SW and DA back when they were the same as every other marine chapter? If you love Codex Chapters, then there's plenty of those. Even if you want less Wolfy SW and less Dark DA, there are successor chapters, you can use those lists and only take the OG fluffy units you like, or you could create a Codex Chapter with whatever esthetic you please.
Exactly how does Celestine help Marines more than Sisters?...
The Dark Eldar Codex is not top tier. There's an argument to be made that they shouldn't be. They are a relatively small enclave that fights mostly to gather slaves. They're the furthest thing from being a major force in the Galaxy. They did a pure DE boxed game for the folks who like that army. No barrier to anyone so inclined to buying that. No Marines to spoil the fun. How much you want to bet sales on Burning of Prospero and Betrayal at Calth outstrip Gangs of Commorrah by a factor of 10 EACH?
I'll say it yet again. These other armies and their devoted players need and deserve support for their lines 8th is around the corner, and they will get it, BUT That doesn't mean it's reasonable for GW to be expected to set aside their flagship army to do so.
It is sort of a which comes first the chicken or the egg type situation:
Does GW spam marines because Timmy loves spam marines the best?
OR
Does Timmy love spam marines the best because GW spams marines?
It is probably a bit of both though as in a vicious/virtuous circle.
If you are fed up with too many marines on the tabletop then probably the best way is to get at Timmy and encourage him to look elsewhere. One could boycott players with marine armies... "Sorry chap I've played against SMs dozens of times, it is kind of boring now, looking to play against something else, Deldar or Tyranids or anything really."
Half the time SM are already have no one to fight except other SMs.
Then again when Timmy first gets into 40k he likely will not be running into many other players of the local meta until he has already sunk hundreds of pounds and almost as many hours buying and painting his Space Marines. At which point it is a little late to encourage him to play something else.
You guys are both doing a lot of moaning about SM getting a lot of options/ support, but shouldn't the most popular army get support? Should they give MORE support than they do to Marines to Xenos armies that don't generate as much interest? GW is a business, not a Social Justice advocacy group for rebels and aliens that don't exist in real life.
The problem is the current model is a self fulfilling prophecy - if you continually focus on one product line by ensuing that they are always having new models, always in every starter box set, have extremely powerful rules then it is going to sell very well - then you say hey - look at the sales for Marines better than anyone else - so lets make more of them - then do that for decades and you have the situation we have now. Everything is geared towards selling Marines and well some other stuff that they can fight - if you want but hey look Marines.
As you say Eldar and Tau have been given considerable (well in the Eldar case heavily OP) rules and model support - and guess what they sell well - imagine if you did that with other neglected factions!
Also they keep focussing on the same Chapters of Marines so they have to produce more and more outlandish "flavour" units for those same Chapters - so rather than producing the fluff based elite Terminators for Salamanders, or sniper /infiltration squads for Raven Guard for example we get Wolfy Wolf Wolf on his Wolf waving his Wolf sword and the Blood and Dark Angels are not much better. I used to love Space Wolves and Dark Angels but now.....
Slap in some cheese formations to help Marines win as well just in case you are not already tempted.
Even when models are produced for other Factions like St Celestine, they make it so she is used most effectively by Marines rather than her own Faction - they didn't bother giving her Acts of Faith.
Dark Eldar got a dismal 7th Ed Codex which is only usable in a few limited ways.
Marines have always been the most popular, and always will. It's just the most appealing faction to the most people fluff wise. Accept it.
I guess you missed the min 3 times I said myself that the neglected armies would generate more sales with more support. HOWEVER, they will never sell as well as Marines, and that's just the simple truth.
You loved SW and DA back when they were the same as every other marine chapter? If you love Codex Chapters, then there's plenty of those. Even if you want less Wolfy SW and less Dark DA, there are successor chapters, you can use those lists and only take the OG fluffy units you like, or you could create a Codex Chapter with whatever esthetic you please.
Exactly how does Celestine help Marines more than Sisters?...
The Dark Eldar Codex is not top tier. There's an argument to be made that they shouldn't be. They are a relatively small enclave that fights mostly to gather slaves. They're the furthest thing from being a major force in the Galaxy. They did a pure DE boxed game for the folks who like that army. No barrier to anyone so inclined to buying that. No Marines to spoil the fun. How much you want to bet sales on Burning of Prospero and Betrayal at Calth outstrip Gangs of Commorrah by a factor of 10 EACH?
I'll say it yet again. These other armies and their devoted players need and deserve support for their lines 8th is around the corner, and they will get it,BUT That doesn't mean it's reasonable for GW to be expected to set aside their flagship army to do so .
I strongly disagree that any[u] Faction in the game should be inferior just because....which is what you are saying. The 5th Edition Codex was great, lots of fun options and playable - then then trashed it in the next one alongside a number of other 7th edition codexes.
Dark Eldar as a whole are a hell of lot more active and numerous than ANY Marine chapter and the Tau - guess they should all be low power by your reasoning.
No I loved Wolves and Dark Angels when they were not parodies of themselves, when they did not ride Wolf Sleighs pulled by Wolves - you know like I actually said in the post. When the actual background and the odd unit was enough to differentiate them, when they did not need all these crap flavour units. Again the point is that whilst they have a single minded obsession with Wolfy Wolf Wolf units they are not doing stuff for other factions or even other Marines that is not pure stupid.
As I specifically said Celestine does not have Acts of Faith and so her fellow Sisters can't use them if she is in their unit - buy hey stick her with Wolfen and guess what she is awesome. So yeah - good for all Imperial Armies - even better for marines - shocker.
Why exactly do you think that the neglected armies are getting more stuff in 8th ed?
BUT That doesn't mean it's reasonable for GW to be expected to set aside their flagship army to do so
That is not what people are saying - they are saying don't pour everything into them.
The Dark Eldar Codex is not top tier. There's an argument to be made that they shouldn't be. They are a relatively small enclave that fights mostly to gather slaves. They're the furthest thing from being a major force in the Galaxy. They did a pure DE boxed game for the folks who like that army. No barrier to anyone so inclined to buying that. No Marines to spoil the fun.
But the Space Marines are also a relatively exceptionally small enclave that is also extremely far from a major force in the galaxy. If we were to actually try to use that reasoning, then the Imperial Guard would be the most supported army in the game, since the vast majority of the game's conflicts are fought by them.
I'll say it yet again. These other armies and their devoted players need and deserve support for their lines 8th is around the corner, and they will get it
No more space marines for a while... I find space marine releases tedious these days. Even CSM have had their moment for now, although some updated kits would be good (bikes, havocs, a plastic power armoured lord/sorcerer dual kit).
More interesting to me would be ork, tyranid, dark eldar and imperial guard releases. Tyranids and dark eldar are pretty well served for models but could do with new codices, or at the very least a kind of traitor legions style release for each. Decurions, chapter tactics etc. Orks and imperial guard need some models updating and probably their codices revamped too. I highly doubt any of these things will happen so maybe in the current climate the best I can hope for is campaign books featuring these factions with some cool new rules to strengthen them
The Dark Eldar Codex is not top tier. There's an argument to be made that they shouldn't be. They are a relatively small enclave that fights mostly to gather slaves. They're the furthest thing from being a major force in the Galaxy. They did a pure DE boxed game for the folks who like that army. No barrier to anyone so inclined to buying that. No Marines to spoil the fun.
But the Space Marines are also a relatively exceptionally small enclave that is also extremely far from a major force in the galaxy. If we were to actually try to use that reasoning, then the Imperial Guard would be the most supported army in the game, since the vast majority of the game's conflicts are fought by them.
I'll say it yet again. These other armies and their devoted players need and deserve support for their lines 8th is around the corner, and they will get it
20 years and still waiting for some...
Technically by sheer numbers the most common conflict in the Galaxy would be Orks fighting Tyranids.
Perhaps if something other than Marines was released for once.... Perhaps if GW released new shiny for something other than Marines..... Perhaps if another race had the slightest mention.... Perhaps if Marines where not shoehorned into EVERYTHING, even the last stand of another factions iconic world..... Perhaps if the glory boys where not made out to be the bestest of the bestest..... perhaps if GW actually supported another line...... Perhaps if other lines where not forced to rely on overpriced and poorly sculpted 18+ year old models for the majority of their units (and usually their core choices)......
Yeah, once you ignore all of the above the success of Space marines is obviously due to them being really good/everyones dream.
Hogwash. Every Xenos army except Tyranids has a 7th edition codex. Dark Eldar got tons of new models. Eldar on a few occasions has gotten all kinds of new OP gak, Harlequins got a new codex and models. Tau gets more broken all the time, Genestealer Cults just dropped with a whole new line of minis and a lot of powerful abilities, Chaos just got oodles of stuff
No one's trying to say there isn't armies out there that have been left behind, but the point here is that your assertion that people don't really like marines and they spend thousands of dollars and hours on their marine armies for any other reason than that they like them is a joke. Any cases of that being true are anecdotal and not representative of the norm whatsoever. Honestly, why do you guys play whatever armies you play? You throw down the cash regardless of their power level or support level. Why would Marine players be any different?
You guys are both doing a lot of moaning about SM getting a lot of options/ support, but shouldn't the most popular army get support? Should they give MORE support than they do to Marines to Xenos armies that don't generate as much interest? GW is a business, not a Social Justice advocacy group for rebels and aliens that don't exist in real life.
Oh really? Really? Pray tell, what did Tyranids and Dark Eldar get? Tyranids got nerfed heavily, lost the flexibility that they should have and gained one crappy variation on the Biovore and a new flier. Oh, and a spore thingy. That was over two years ago. Dark Eldar got an update to their kits that meant they where no longer relying on the 1990's sculpts, but lost a good chunk of their characters and recieved a semi nerf. The only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite by coincidence these are the only two Xenos races that recieved more than a courteous couple of months support before the focus turned back to MOAR MAHRINES and in fact they are the only two Xenos races that still receive support and love from GW.
Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.
Now, we are not saying that people who dont like Marines play marines anyway, that is obviously... Wait a second. People DO play marines even though we dont like them because for many of the more neglected Imperial armies a Deathwatch detachment is the key to some much needed firepower and utility. Furthermore many new players do not have a chance as the first army they are inevitably met with is Marines. They see them as they enter the shop, they see them on the posters and hangings, they see them on the shelves and when they purchase their first starter set they inevitably get generic Xenos/Traitor army X and the super special cool marines to beat them with. almost every time the Marine army included is superior to its opponents (just look at the Dark Vengance set where the Marines where the only ones equipped with anti heavy infantry and anti armour weapons) and in recent years even the bad guys have been Marines as well (just spikier).
Given all that how can you NOT admit that there may just be a major marketing reason why Marines are so popular.
And as for throwing money at my factions stuff, I dont any more. I proxy what I can and sit tight awaiting the next codex. There is no point in purchasing any more for me as I do not know if I will be continuing with 40K. Put quite simply, my continued playing and purchasing hinges heavily on 8th editions rules and the next Guard codex.
As to your last point, OF COURSE WE ARE MOANING. GW supports Marines all the time. They are on the posters, the adverts, i the strting sets, have the most releases, are mentioned all the time, are shoehorned into every last bit of fluff and boxed game, even the ones they really do not belong in (Fall of Cadia, the new Armageddon game) and generally see more support than any other faction and also have the strongest rules. As a note, Tau, Eldar and Admech/Crons all receive a similar amount of support and they all sell amazingly well. What if IG where put in the limelight? Well, fix the gak codex and update the plastics and I guarantee that you would see a massive increase in sales. Look at what happened when Sisters received a new character (that premium Sister Superior/Battle Nun commander) and GW where shocked at how much their Sisters of battle sales skyrocketed over night with just a tiny mention and a new figure, but unfortunately they where too thick to put 2 + 2 together and instead dropped back to making yet more Marine fanwank.
If GW actually updated the figures for Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle as well as giving these armies some decent rules and support there is no reason as to why they should not sell at least as well as Marines. Hell, IG and SoB would easily out sell Marines as players whom had all but given up hope, or who where put off by the hilarious prices and ancient models, suddenly found themselves presented with new, decent, models at reasonable prices. marines sales would be tiny in comparison, but once again GW is too thick to see this.
Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?
Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines, therefor by that logic Sisters of Battle should be the most powerful, not Marines.
Melissia wrote: Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?
Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines, therefor by that logic Sisters of Battle should be the most powerful, not Marines.
I don't say that. I say there are a lot more marines than GW says there are. Because math and logic.
Melissia wrote: Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?
Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines, therefor by that logic Sisters of Battle should be the most powerful, not Marines.
...So by that argument can I start complaining that the Phoenix Lords ought to be more powerful than the Primarchs? There are seven (possibly with two more that don't have rules right now), compared to eighteen Primarchs.
Heck, why are Phoenix Lords weaker than Warlord Titans? Are you going to tell me there are fewer than seven Warlord Titans in the galaxy?
How about Mantas? Why are Mantas strong? They're so common they come out of spaceships in squadrons!
gnome_idea_what wrote: By that logic the Swarmlord, being a unique tyranid organism and one-of-a-kind, is the most elite of all and should be able to OHKO primarchs.
This is getting silly, but in a fun way.
And The Red Gobbo should be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Swarmlord?
Creed should be able to outflank entire titan legions. Into the enemies deployment one. On turn one.
Because there is only one TACTICAL GENIUS in the entire galaxy
Well we've had our fun making fun of the silly argument. The point is, "power levels", to use a shounen anime term, are independent of a thing's rarity.
For some reason I had the idea that any Ecclesiarchal person or place of significance (of which there would be at least a few thousand) would have a small retinue of Adepta Sororitas and that a shrine world by itself would have at least a few hundred.
That sucks that they made it a few hundred at most. I tend to shy away from fielding entire armies of a faction that small on the tabletop. And here I was getting all hopeful for a plastic Sisters army.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: For some reason I had the idea that any Ecclesiarchal person or place of significance (of which there would be at least a few thousand) would have a small retinue of Adepta Sororitas and that a shrine world by itself would have at least a few hundred.
Probably because that's what the lore says. But the numbers described in the codices don't match the lore. Because GW has absolutely no sense of scale.
Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines . . .
There are? I always thought the Sisters numbered in the millions.
By logical readings, yes. But not LITERAL readings.
By the most literal reading of the various Sisters books, there are at most a few hundred thousand Sisters of Battle, and that's being generous.
I only have Witch Hunters and the 2nd Ed Sisters book, which I haven't looked at in a while. But in Witch Hunters I'm looking at the section where it says there's a "significant force" of Sisters anywhere there's an Ecclesiarchal cathedral, and there's at least one Ecclesiarchal cathedral on every major Imperial world. That's where I would get an estimation in the millions.
I'm also looking at the Order-Preceptory-Commandery-Mission org. Where it gives a Preceptory the max of 1,000 Sisters. Is that where you're getting the "literal" interpretation? The chart seems pretty flexible, with Greater Orders and sub-Orders specifically. Like a Greater Order could have a thousand sub-Orders, theoretically.
Used to be that Stormtroopers numbered in around 10 000, in the 5th ed codex, the Scion/AM 7th ed codex don't give hard numbers anymore, but with the variety of regiments/battalions/whatevers of Scions in their codex, I am sure there are more of them now.
God, seeing the term "power levels" brings me back to my days of arguing on Nasuverse and American Comic book forums (Hulk is simultaneously able to be threatened by the U.S military and yet able to threaten to make the entire Eastern Seaboard sink into the ocean if he takes a step too hard while sufficiently angry! :U). Let's not go there, it is a silly place.
Specifically it says the six major militant Orders Majoris have "tens of thousands of members" (an exact quote) while the Orders Minoris have "from a dozen to a few thousand" (not an exact quote), many of whom aren't necessarily Sisters Militant.
Basically, how many Sisters of Battle there are depends on how many Orders Minoris there are and how big they are and how many of their members are Sisters of Battle. Could be anywhere from less than a hundred thousand, to billions. We don't know. A purely literal reading will give us a very small number of Battle Sisters, however.
Melissia wrote: Specifically it says the six major militant Orders Majoris have "tens of thousands of members" (an exact quote) while the Orders Minoris have "from a dozen to a few thousand" (not an exact quote), many of whom aren't necessarily Sisters Militant.
Basically, how many Sisters of Battle there are depends on how many Orders Minoris there are and how big they are and how many of their members are Sisters of Battle. Could be anywhere from less than a hundred thousand, to billions. We don't know.
Ahh, thanks for the "tens of thousands" quote. I'll have to do a more thorough read later. Agreed that it's up to the quantity of the Order Minoris, which seems to be left completely open.
Melissia wrote: A purely literal reading will give us a very small number of Battle Sisters, however.
I'd argue that a purely literal reading doesn't even get you enough information for that assessment, too many gaps in information, some of which appears counter to others in the same book.
It's not like "There are about a thousand marines per chapter, and about a thousand chapters." which has popped up in multiple sources since 40K began.
Neither here nor there, I was mostly just checking if there was some mind-blowing info on Sisters.
Good to hear that there's other fluff out there about the Sisters having a decent sized force. I'll need to pick up some of the older books, and then if any heretics start spreading this blasphemy about there only being a few hundred Sisters I can slap them with it until they see things my way.
I wish I had more time just now to respond to a lot of this, and I will when I have a moment, but for now, just let me say this.
It's truly painful watching you guys twist your half baked logic in order to try to continue to argue realities that are right in front of your face and should be obvious to any reasonable person.
No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire. Sisters are the elite of the Eclisiarchy, which is only a faction within the Imperium, and one that is flaunting Imperial Law by having armed forces at all.
Get over yourselves for one second here and look at the big picture here, please.
Weboflies wrote: I wish I had more time just now to respond to a lot of this, and I will when I have a moment, but for now, just let me say this.
It's truly painful watching you guys twist your half baked logic in order to try to continue to argue realities that are right in front of your face and should be obvious to any reasonable person.
No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire. Sisters are the elite of the Eclisiarchy, which is only a faction within the Imperium, and one that is flaunting Imperial Law by having armed forces at all.
Get over yourselves for one second here and look at the big picture here, please.
This coming from the guy telling us that Marines are the best because mien ubersmench automatically have to be better than everything. Pot meet kettle much?
Uh, that "city" of Commorragh is the size of an entire world. It's not some isolated secret ninja village. It contains within it the remnants of Eldar society pre-fall, including much of their ancient and powerful technology and their history. Actually, I think the tech level at Commorragh is more advanced than the craftworlds.
Space Wolves recruit their entire chapter from a single feral death world, right? Fenris is just really well suited to producing Space Marines. Commorragh is really well suited to producing highly elite space pirates. The Space Wolves probably get a lot of outside support from the rest of the Imperium, but Commorragh has a lot of wealth of the Eldar from before the fall and they've been stealing stuff for many millennia afterwards.
I'm not very well versed in Dark Eldar fluff, but if I remember correctly Commoragh is (was?) gigantic and had a huge population. It was also fabulously wealthy, if I remember correctly. Being a space pirate is the number one profession there. Eldar are, if I remember correctly, much better soldiers on average than normal humans due to their speed, agility, reaction time and intelligence. Not to mention they live a really long time, have access to advanced technology, and I think the Dark Eldar pull some shenanigans letting them come back into a new body if they get killed (or at least some do).
So if there was a country of a billion normal humans they would normally be able to field a much better basketball team than a country of five million humans. However, if that small country was very wealthy, completely obsessed with basketball, had the technology to keep its athletes in competitive physical shape for far longer than the more populous country and the average height of people in the less populous country was a full two feet taller than the more populous country then the less populous country could probably field at least one highly competitive basketball team. (This is a really silly analogy, I know. )
So that's my understanding of the Dark Eldar. They don't have the raw numbers to go head-to-head with the Imperium of Man, but their pirates are elite enough to be a significant threat to extremely elite Imperial soldiers, such as Space Marines. (Same could be said for Craftworld Eldar.)
By the most literal reading of the various Sisters books, there are at most a few hundred thousand Sisters of Battle, and that's being generous.
Don't worry though, GW's doing everything they can to bring that number down to zero!
Weboflies wrote:I wish I had more time just now to respond to a lot of this, and I will when I have a moment, but for now, just let me say this.
It's truly painful watching you guys twist your half baked logic in order to try to continue to argue realities that are right in front of your face and should be obvious to any reasonable person.
No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire. Sisters are the elite of the Eclisiarchy, which is only a faction within the Imperium, and one that is flaunting Imperial Law by having armed forces at all.
Get over yourselves for one second here and look at the big picture here, please.
Okay, but back to my point. Space marines are mostly insignificant in the grand scale of the setting. In fact, most of their battles tend to involve their own petty interests. The imperial guard do almost all of the legwork, and are by far the most important force in the entire setting. And yet not only do they have one of the weakest armies in the entire game, they have a model range that's almost as neglected as the Sisters.
By the most literal reading of the various Sisters books, there are at most a few hundred thousand Sisters of Battle, and that's being generous.
Don't worry though, GW's doing everything they can to bring that number down to zero!
They're just not special enough. They're making Sisters of Silence models instead because they're all fancy and magic and special and loaded down with Dark Age tech.
Weboflies wrote:I wish I had more time just now to respond to a lot of this, and I will when I have a moment, but for now, just let me say this.
It's truly painful watching you guys twist your half baked logic in order to try to continue to argue realities that are right in front of your face and should be obvious to any reasonable person.
No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire. Sisters are the elite of the Eclisiarchy, which is only a faction within the Imperium, and one that is flaunting Imperial Law by having armed forces at all.
Get over yourselves for one second here and look at the big picture here, please.
Okay, but back to my point. Space marines are mostly insignificant in the grand scale of the setting. In fact, most of their battles tend to involve their own petty interests. The imperial guard do almost all of the legwork, and are by far the most important force in the entire setting. And yet not only do they have one of the weakest armies in the entire game, they have a model range that's almost as neglected as the Sisters.
It's the scale and the points scheme that cause the fluff/rules discrepancy here. The Guard are the most important force in the setting, but if we were being true to fluff they wouldn't be fielding a 1,500pt army against someone else's 1,500pt army. There would be 1,500pts of Space Marines in a combat zone with thirty thousand points (possibly more) of Guardsmen and what's going on in a given 40k-game-sized sector would be down to information and strategic maneuvering, rather than two players lining up conveniently points-equal forces in balanced scenarios to beat on each other. Some sacrifices need to be made to make the game function.
And as for the strategic relevance of the Space Marines they're supposed to be shock troops deployed first through the breach to make the Guard's job easier, not a standalone army. The Guard does the work, yes, but at the company scale the army that puts the boots on the ground, does the mopup, and does all the proper work without which the Imperium would have disintegrated many, many thousands of years ago is simply less sexy/exciting/interesting to players than the folks in the shiny armour who do the kicking in of doors.
(In my experience having this argument with many people over the years I've come to conclude that the degree to which Space Marines annoy you may be correlated with how much you know about how war actually works. People who understand and respect the importance of the gruntwork tend to get annoyed at the Guard getting no respect in favour of shiny movie-commandos carefully calibrated to appeal to the inner twelve-year-old.)
It is sort of a which comes first the chicken or the egg type situation:
Does GW spam marines because Timmy loves spam marines the best?
OR
Does Timmy love spam marines the best because GW spams marines?
Honestly, in most cases, what do you think attracted Timmy to 40k in the first place?. You don't think Timmy has internet access? You don't think he knows he doesn't have to buy the starter set? You think he's not aware of the other factions? People either like one of the factions enough to buy in to the hobby, or they don't. Do you honestly think People buy into the hobby just because a faction is there? If Marines don't appeal to them they'll go with another faction, or just buy the new Grand Theft Auto game. You guys talk as if anyone does this for any reason other than that they found something there that sparked their imagination, and made it worth it to them to pass all the HUGE barriers to entry, and YES even for Marines, there is a huge barrier to entry, namely vast amounts of time and money. It's not like we're talking about grocery shopping here people, get real.
Only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.
Tau can mop the floor with Marines and they don't sell nearly as well. Eldar are more powerful than Marines, get tons of suppoort and although they come in second, don't sell as well either.
master of ordinance wrote: Wait a second. People DO play marines even though we dont like them because for many of the more neglected Imperial armies a Deathwatch detachment is the key to some much needed firepower and utility.
Really, those players don't like Marines at all? Are you sure? If so, exactly how many people are we talking about here? Also, we are talking about a unit or two, not a whole army.
master of ordinance wrote: Furthermore many new players do not have a chance as the first army they are inevitably met with is Marines. They see them as they enter the shop, they see them on the posters and hangings, they see them on the shelves and when they purchase their first starter set they inevitably get generic Xenos/Traitor army X and the super special cool marines to beat them with. almost every time the Marine army included is superior to its opponents (just look at the Dark Vengance set where the Marines where the only ones equipped with anti heavy infantry and anti armour weapons) and in recent years even the bad guys have been Marines as well (just spikier).
Given all that how can you NOT admit that there may just be a major marketing reason why Marines are so popular.
Do you really think anyone coming into this hobby is even thinking about winning games when they make the plunge? There's way easier and cheaper paths to pwning people at games. If that's what people care about, they'll just play video games.
People fall in love with the models and fluff.
THERE'S NO OTHER REASON TO DO THIS.
Do you really think how well supported a line is, or it's power level plays any kind of role in that? Why do you love your army? Why do you stick with it even though it's not supported? Why would SM players be any different? Are we all idiots with an overabundance of time and money doing this on a whim? If we are, why are we playing 40k at all?
master of ordinance wrote: They are on the posters, the adverts, i the strting sets, have the most releases, are mentioned all the time, are shoehorned into every last bit of fluff and boxed game, even the ones they really do not belong in (Fall of Cadia, the new Armageddon game)
How on earth do the elite of the elite, the tip of the spear of Imperial Forces not belong in the two hottest warzones in the Galaxy? Seriously...
master of ordinance wrote: GW where shocked at how much their Sisters of battle sales skyrocketed over night with just a tiny mention and a new figure, but unfortunately they where too thick to put 2 + 2 together and instead dropped back to making yet more Marine fanwank.
Celestine came out mere weeks ago. Do you think putting even one new kit together and getting it to market is something that happens overnight? What world do you live in? If they were testing the waters with Celestine and the rereleases, they haven't had time to take things to the next step if that's in the works.
As I specifically said Celestine does not have Acts of Faith and so her fellow Sisters can't use them if she is in their unit.
Why do you need to put Celestine in a unit? All reports are that she's virtually unkillable and completely awesome for the points, whether she's in a unit or not. But wait, you found one thing that's not perfect, so I guess She sucks.
master of ordinance wrote: If GW actually updated the figures for Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle as well as giving these armies some decent rules and support there is no reason as to why they should not sell at least as well as Marines. Hell, IG and SoB would easily out sell Marines as players whom had all but given up hope, or who where put off by the hilarious prices and ancient models, suddenly found themselves presented with new, decent, models at reasonable prices. marines sales would be tiny in comparison, but once again GW is too thick to see this.
You are living in a fantasy. Nothing has ever sold as well as Marines, and none of the other existing lines ever will. You might get a blip here or there if something has been hung out to dry for ages, and gets a big push, but nothing else in the game will ever match the consistent popularity of Marines, regardless of support levels. What exactly does it matter how old a model is? Many of the Aspect warriors are from the 90's and they are some of the most beautiful models in the game. I play with RTB01 models from the 1980's and pay through the nose to get more on ebay, and then buy the new kits so I have weapon options for them. I do that because that's what I like. I don't complain about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?
[Facepalm] Lterally no-one one said that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
master of ordinance wrote: [
This coming from the guy telling us that Marines are the best because mien ubersmench automatically have to be better than everything. Pot meet kettle much?
Where did I say that? Quote me please.
Alright... Guys, I can tell you're all passionate about your armies, and I think that's part of the problem here. You're not seeing things in perspective. Let's shift this back to real world stuff here.
GW is a publicly traded corporation.
Do you understand what that means?
It means they are accountable to their shareholders to maximize profits.
It means they have bean counters looking at what costs are on every release and set of releases, and looking at profits for the associated sales.
The bean counters don't care about space marines, or space elves, or space nuns, or space anything.
They care about profits.
It doesn't cost them any more or less to redesign Marines than it does to redesign anything else. They've obviously looked at their own numbers, and those numbers, (ie: gamers and 40k fans voting with their dollars), and have found Marines to be the most profitable (ie: generate the most sales). This means they will keep doing Marines releases in preference to other things.
It's useless to speculate about whether or not another faction would take up the mantle if they focused the lions share of their resources on them, because that's something that is simply never going to happen. If it was going to, It would have already at some point in the ups and downs of 40k's 30 year history. Even if they could be be just as successful with DE as SM, why would they do it? The've got more work to do to get an army like that up to top tier level, than they do with Marines. Why would they take the risk, and increase their costs, and nerf a proven sales winner just to end up at square one with sales if they're extremely lucky? Maybe your of the belief for some reason that your army could sell better. GW has obviously never had any reason to believe that, and guess what? They have all the numbers in front of them, and you don't, and they're not dumb. They're running a successful corporation, and you're just some person that complains on the internet about it.
At some point, if they continue with this level of Marines releases, they will inevitably reach "peak Marines". When we get there, they will start to see diminishing returns on their Marines releases, and they will start looking elsewhere for opportunities. Then, and maybe only then, increasing numbers of other factions will start getting more support.
SO
As players of these other factions, you should WELCOME all these Marines releases, because you may not get the support you want for your army until guys like me, who buy Marines, are out of money or sick of Marines.
Did I just blow your minds?
All that said, Marine players do need more interesting and fun stuff to kill (or be killed by), and a new Edition is nigh, so why don't you guys let your blood pressure ease down a notch and just see what happens.
master of ordinance wrote: They are on the posters, the adverts, i the strting sets, have the most releases, are mentioned all the time, are shoehorned into every last bit of fluff and boxed game, even the ones they really do not belong in (Fall of Cadia, the new Armageddon game)
How on earth do the elite of the elite, the tip of the spear of Imperial Forces not belong in the two hottest warzones in the Galaxy? Seriously...
Not really, no. Armageddon and Cadia are both long term, dug in situations where much of the fighting is basically a meatgrinder. For as much as Dorn likes to pretend, Space Marines are worthless at maintaining such sieges because they just don't have the numbers. You send space marines in to quickly clean up insurrections before they happen or cut off the commanding head of an isolated force, not to man the trenches. Unfortunately for them, both of those theatres are basically all trench.
master of ordinance wrote: GW where shocked at how much their Sisters of battle sales skyrocketed over night with just a tiny mention and a new figure, but unfortunately they where too thick to put 2 + 2 together and instead dropped back to making yet more Marine fanwank.
Celestine came out mere weeks ago. Do you think putting even one new kit together and getting it to market is something that happens overnight? What world do you live in? If they were testing the waters with Celestine and the rereleases, they haven't had time to take things to the next step if that's in the works.
He's talking about Canoness Veridyan. Who GW aren't even producing anymore, despite her startlingly good sales.
As I specifically said Celestine does not have Acts of Faith and so her fellow Sisters can't use them if she is in their unit.
Why do you need to put Celestine in a unit? All reports are that she's virtually unkillable and completely awesome for the points, whether she's in a unit or not. But wait, you found one thing that's not perfect, so I guess She sucks.
Traditionally, she had been used to lead a unit of Seraphim. Additionally, it is a bit of a kick in a teeth to have your own army's iconic hero not able to actually play well with the units of her own army.
master of ordinance wrote: If GW actually updated the figures for Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle as well as giving these armies some decent rules and support there is no reason as to why they should not sell at least as well as Marines. Hell, IG and SoB would easily out sell Marines as players whom had all but given up hope, or who where put off by the hilarious prices and ancient models, suddenly found themselves presented with new, decent, models at reasonable prices. marines sales would be tiny in comparison, but once again GW is too thick to see this.
You are living in a fantasy. Nothing has ever sold as well as Marines, and none of the other existing lines ever will. You might get a blip here or there if something has been hung out to dry for ages, and gets a big push, but nothing else in the game will ever match the consistent popularity of Marines, regardless of support levels. What exactly does it matter how old a model is? Many of the Aspect warriors are from the 90's and they are some of the most beautiful models in the game. I play with RTB01 models from the 1980's and pay through the nose to get more on ebay, and then buy the new kits so I have weapon options for them. I do that because that's what I like. I don't complain about it.
It's definitely true that marines will generally continue to lead the charge no matter how well maintained the other ranges get, I would expect that the gap would get quite a bit smaller.
As for the age of models, sadly, the age does show in a lot of them. Cadians and Catachans look absolutely horrendous, and as good as the Sisters looked in their time, their age puts them at odds with everything else more and more with each year, and the comparison is definitely not in their favour. It also doesn't help that they're still in freaking metal and cost $120 a unit.
master of ordinance wrote: [
This coming from the guy telling us that Marines are the best because mien ubersmench automatically have to be better than everything. Pot meet kettle much?
Where did I say that? Quote me please.
No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire.
It doesn't cost them any more or less to redesign Marines than it does to redesign anything else. They've obviously looked at their own numbers, and those numbers, (ie: gamers and 40k fans voting with their dollars), and have found Marines to be the most profitable (ie: generate the most sales). This means they will keep doing Marines releases in preference to other things.
It actually does cost less, especially in an age of CAD. Since a Marines use a lot of the same or similar parts across armies, they can just copy/past most of the elements into each kit with minor alterations and flourishes.
I'd argue that the most distinctively 40k faction in Warhammer 40k is the Orks.
The majority of post-star wars space opera settings have transhuman supersoldiers in power armor, many also have transhuman supersoldiers with a knight flavoring or religious undertones too.
Nearly every one of them has some kind of space army.
The bulk of them have some ancient precursor species that is either faded and slowly dying (space elves) or are dormant and are waiting to return to the present like the necrons. Plenty also have some variety of space demons from space hell, like one of the most famous video game franchises ever (DOOM in this case).
Plenty have some coalition of aliens like the Tau with plasma everywhere, and plenty have a swarm of bugs coming to eat everything.
The Orks though? The Orks are far more unique compared to other space opera settings. The closest that comes to mind are Mass Effect's Krogan, but even then they don't quite fit the mold the Orks do of a wild and loud band of English football fans given a green coat of paint and stripped of being able to be anything but English football fans at game night. Like, with a Space marine you might be able to confuse an Astartes for one of a billion other big men in big power armor that exists in Space Fantasy and Science Fiction, but an Ork is basically 100% 40k.
I would also throw the Inquisition and Admech in there as well, at least as a close second. Especially the Blanchier stuff. Just a hell of a lot of excess and crazy that other settings never quite manage to properly touch on.
Of course, the current lacking of self awareness present in writing staff and the setting leaves little hope for that sense of identity for any of those three factions walking along a thin thread, as everything is set to become less silly and more "awesome" with each rewrite. Even the Orks have managed to lose a lot of their silliness and personality from the old days.
Only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.
Tau can mop the floor with Marines and they don't sell nearly as well. Eldar are more powerful than Marines, get tons of suppoort and although they come in second, don't sell as well either.
WHAT!?!?!? A well played, Tau army MAYBE, But you don't even have to be COMPETENT to beat Tau with Marines. A good Grey Knights player will slaughter an expert Tau player and then and maybe loss a squad. Wolves, all flavors of angels, White Scars, Ultra Smurfs, will all paste Tau. It'd really take Timmy and the starter box level of a Space Marine player to get mopped up by Tau. Want to make a Tau player cry? Drop Pods....Drop Pods everywhere....melta to the death the giant robos and step into CC with them and you're day is DONE. The Loyalist Marines are across the board better then every faction in the game rules wise. And a lot of that has to do with not only having the most releases, but they literally have more variants of vehicles, and unit types then anyone else. So you literally can not make a BAD pick with Space Marines....oh yeah....and GRAV WEAPONS *Mic drop*
Kain wrote:I'd argue that the most distinctively 40k faction in Warhammer 40k is the Orks.
The majority of post-star wars space opera settings have transhuman supersoldiers in power armor, many also have transhuman supersoldiers with a knight flavoring or religious undertones too.
Nearly every one of them has some kind of space army.
The bulk of them have some ancient precursor species that is either faded and slowly dying (space elves) or are dormant and are waiting to return to the present like the necrons. Plenty also have some variety of space demons from space hell, like one of the most famous video game franchises ever (DOOM in this case).
Plenty have some coalition of aliens like the Tau with plasma everywhere, and plenty have a swarm of bugs coming to eat everything.
The Orks though? The Orks are far more unique compared to other space opera settings. The closest that comes to mind are Mass Effect's Krogan, but even then they don't quite fit the mold the Orks do of a wild and loud band of English football fans given a green coat of paint and stripped of being able to be anything but English football fans at game night. Like, with a Space marine you might be able to confuse an Astartes for one of a billion other big men in big power armor that exists in Space Fantasy and Science Fiction, but an Ork is basically 100% 40k.
Well until World of Warcraft came along and stole the entire DESIGN of Warhammer, and then StarCraft copy pasted 40k.
Blizzard Orcs only really share being big and green with GW Orks. And even then Blizzard's sense of aesthetics from WC3 until Overwatch was like, incredibly and utterly terrible with everyone wearing inflatable balloon armor, every woman being a tiny little stick of nothing (with Nova wearing a catsuit that out Zero Suit's the Zero suit :U), and every man being built like a dump truck with no exceptions. You really wouldn't be able to confuse Ghazghkull or Gorgutz with a World of Warcraft Orc.
It is sort of a which comes first the chicken or the egg type situation:
Does GW spam marines because Timmy loves spam marines the best?
OR
Does Timmy love spam marines the best because GW spams marines?
Honestly, in most cases, what do you think attracted Timmy to 40k in the first place?. You don't think Timmy has internet access? You don't think he knows he doesn't have to buy the starter set? You think he's not aware of the other factions? People either like one of the factions enough to buy in to the hobby, or they don't. Do you honestly think People buy into the hobby just because a faction is there? If Marines don't appeal to them they'll go with another faction, or just buy the new Grand Theft Auto game. You guys talk as if anyone does this for any reason other than that they found something there that sparked their imagination, and made it worth it to them to pass all the HUGE barriers to entry, and YES even for Marines, there is a huge barrier to entry, namely vast amounts of time and money. It's not like we're talking about grocery shopping here people, get real.
I agree, I'm in since late 90s and never been attracted by SM.... until space wolves got they're wolfy models and new units, and then love at first sight But I still don't like a lot of SM stuff, especially their vehicles.
Melissia wrote: Commorragh is planet-sized. And overpopulated.
I tend to hear "solar system sized" more than planet sized; but then space is a very weird thing within the webway. But in any case the only Eldar who outnumber the Commorites are the Exodites and Commorragh is not the only dark city that the Dark Eldar live in within the webway. And if that weren't enough the Dark Eldar also have vat grown babies to provide for added cannon fodder for their armies. The Dark Eldar number in the trillions; possibly quadrillions and are actually growing in number. As part of the setting's grim darkness, the faction perhaps most similar to humans in mental outlook out of the xenos; the Craftworlders, are a fading breed. But the faction of xenos who are universally composed out of sociopaths who are so bereft of compassion that even ancient archons need the concept of love explained to them are a growing people filled with vitality.
Craftworld Eldar fall in love, they have heartbreaks, they have children whom they love and cherish deeply, they have families and very human worries. Meanwhile a commorite is a cackling psychopath who can't even put a name to altruistic feelings that they're expected to shun as weakness and even though they need to torture other people to survive; they'd probably still torture you anyway even if Slaanesh wasn't looming over their shoulders. Thing of what kind of crapsack universe has the latter be the ones who are succeeding and thriving.
Why do you need to put Celestine in a unit? All reports are that she's virtually unkillable and completely awesome for the points, whether she's in a unit or not. But wait, you found one thing that's not perfect, so I guess She sucks.
Oh dear - your really have no idea who the game works do you :facepalm - Do you even play it?
AnomanderRake wrote: And as for the strategic relevance of the Space Marines they're supposed to be shock troops
Eeeeh. Not really. Shock troops don't have to be as mobile as GW makes Space Marines out to be. They're really more special forces to the extreme.
From Wikipedia: Shock troops or assault troops are formations created to lead an attack.
"Shock troop" is a calque, a loose translation[1] of the German word Stoßtrupp. Military units which contain assault troops are typically organized for mobility with the intention that they will penetrate through enemy defences and attack into the enemy's vulnerable rear areas.
Only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.
Tau can mop the floor with Marines and they don't sell nearly as well. Eldar are more powerful than Marines, get tons of suppoort and although they come in second, don't sell as well either.
WHAT!?!?!? A well played, Tau army MAYBE, But you don't even have to be COMPETENT to beat Tau with Marines. A good Grey Knights player will slaughter an expert Tau player and then and maybe loss a squad. Wolves, all flavors of angels, White Scars, Ultra Smurfs, will all paste Tau. It'd really take Timmy and the starter box level of a Space Marine player to get mopped up by Tau. Want to make a Tau player cry? Drop Pods....Drop Pods everywhere....melta to the death the giant robos and step into CC with them and you're day is DONE. The Loyalist Marines are across the board better then every faction in the game rules wise. And a lot of that has to do with not only having the most releases, but they literally have more variants of vehicles, and unit types then anyone else. So you literally can not make a BAD pick with Space Marines....oh yeah....and GRAV WEAPONS *Mic drop*
Kain wrote:I'd argue that the most distinctively 40k faction in Warhammer 40k is the Orks.
The majority of post-star wars space opera settings have transhuman supersoldiers in power armor, many also have transhuman supersoldiers with a knight flavoring or religious undertones too.
Nearly every one of them has some kind of space army.
The bulk of them have some ancient precursor species that is either faded and slowly dying (space elves) or are dormant and are waiting to return to the present like the necrons. Plenty also have some variety of space demons from space hell, like one of the most famous video game franchises ever (DOOM in this case).
Plenty have some coalition of aliens like the Tau with plasma everywhere, and plenty have a swarm of bugs coming to eat everything.
The Orks though? The Orks are far more unique compared to other space opera settings. The closest that comes to mind are Mass Effect's Krogan, but even then they don't quite fit the mold the Orks do of a wild and loud band of English football fans given a green coat of paint and stripped of being able to be anything but English football fans at game night. Like, with a Space marine you might be able to confuse an Astartes for one of a billion other big men in big power armor that exists in Space Fantasy and Science Fiction, but an Ork is basically 100% 40k.
Well until World of Warcraft came along and stole the entire DESIGN of Warhammer, and then StarCraft copy pasted 40k.
It i
Tau massacre GK like children. You clearly don't understand how good Tau are currently. It is also very difficult to beat Tau with marines unless you are using a VERY specific gimmick from a VERY short list. If this weren't true, BA wouldn't be getting wrecked every match vs them.
Gk are among the worst armies IMHO, tau are clearly better. I think there is more than a single way for SM to deal with tau, as they have a lot of awful gimmicks, not just one. Specific chapters like DA or SW that rely on their typical stuff can deal with the fishes with good results too.
Only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.
Tau can mop the floor with Marines and they don't sell nearly as well. Eldar are more powerful than Marines, get tons of suppoort and although they come in second, don't sell as well either.
Tau only mop the floor with armies that stand off and try to out shoot them, or try to slog it across the board towards them. Marines can drop pod spam, they can use that Skyhammer formation, they can bring free transports.... All in all Marines and Tau are an even match, erring on the side of the Marines. Eldar have only once not been the best, and that was when they didnt get as much love as they do now.
master of ordinance wrote: Wait a second. People DO play marines even though we dont like them because for many of the more neglected Imperial armies a Deathwatch detachment is the key to some much needed firepower and utility.
Really, those players don't like Marines at all? Are you sure? If so, exactly how many people are we talking about here? Also, we are talking about a unit or two, not a whole army.
It starts as a unit or two. And then you realise that Marine unit X does its thing better than Guard unit Y. Then you also notice that Marine unit C is better than Guard unit A. And then you end up with your Guard being allies. And then you find yourself playing Marines.
master of ordinance wrote: Furthermore many new players do not have a chance as the first army they are inevitably met with is Marines. They see them as they enter the shop, they see them on the posters and hangings, they see them on the shelves and when they purchase their first starter set they inevitably get generic Xenos/Traitor army X and the super special cool marines to beat them with. almost every time the Marine army included is superior to its opponents (just look at the Dark Vengance set where the Marines where the only ones equipped with anti heavy infantry and anti armour weapons) and in recent years even the bad guys have been Marines as well (just spikier).
Given all that how can you NOT admit that there may just be a major marketing reason why Marines are so popular.
Do you really think anyone coming into this hobby is even thinking about winning games when they make the plunge? There's way easier and cheaper paths to pwning people at games. If that's what people care about, they'll just play video games.
Well, given the number TFGWAAC powergamers in 40K, and just how disproportionately higher that number than any other game....
People fall in love with the models and fluff.
That they do
THERE'S NO OTHER REASON TO DO THIS.
Apart from the bit where you get tired of being curbstomped every game and really want to win once in a blue moon.
Do you really think how well supported a line is, or it's power level plays any kind of role in that? Why do you love your army? Why do you stick with it even though it's not supported? Why would SM players be any different? Are we all idiots with an overabundance of time and money doing this on a whim? If we are, why are we playing 40k at all?
Well gee, I dunno. I mean, its not like Marines being very well supported, getting model and codex updates with every new edition, being in all the video games, being mentioned the most in the fluff, having the 2nd best codex, having the most official support, having the largest and most diverse model range, having the most up to date model range, being the product range that takes up the largest percentage of space in a GW store and being the one faction that is thrust down our throats on a daily basis has anything to do with them being popular at all, right?
master of ordinance wrote: They are on the posters, the adverts, i the strting sets, have the most releases, are mentioned all the time, are shoehorned into every last bit of fluff and boxed game, even the ones they really do not belong in (Fall of Cadia, the new Armageddon game)
How on earth do the elite of the elite, the tip of the spear of Imperial Forces not belong in the two hottest warzones in the Galaxy? Seriously...
Good question. How did several armies of Mary Sues make it through the warpstorms in such number that they are talked about a lot more than the actual Cadians themselves in the book. Likewise how come elite Stoss Truppen are suddenly the best thing to have in a siege situation? How come the Marines are mentioned and their actions explored so much more than the Cadians whom where defending their very own planet and making their last stand on it?
master of ordinance wrote: GW where shocked at how much their Sisters of battle sales skyrocketed over night with just a tiny mention and a new figure, but unfortunately they where too thick to put 2 + 2 together and instead dropped back to making yet more Marine fanwank.
Celestine came out mere weeks ago. Do you think putting even one new kit together and getting it to market is something that happens overnight? What world do you live in? If they were testing the waters with Celestine and the rereleases, they haven't had time to take things to the next step if that's in the works.
Celestine is an Imperial model. Cannoness Valerie is the model I am on about and in case you didnt notice she sold out in under 24 hours of her initial release, faster than any other 40k limited edition model has ever done so. If there is no real call for Sisters to get new models and no one would buy them then how come the single new model that they have had in nearly two decades outsold everything else for the brief period it was available. And she was failcast, not even metal or plastic. Hell, at my FLGS she was sold out two weeks before release.
As I specifically said Celestine does not have Acts of Faith and so her fellow Sisters can't use them if she is in their unit.
Why do you need to put Celestine in a unit? All reports are that she's virtually unkillable and completely awesome for the points, whether she's in a unit or not. But wait, you found one thing that's not perfect, so I guess She sucks.
Your ignorance is astonishing. You put characters in a unit for a very good reason, and if you think otherwise thenp please tell my why all the Marine players are so het up about not being able to put Girlyman in a unit, despite him being tankier than Celestine?
master of ordinance wrote: If GW actually updated the figures for Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle as well as giving these armies some decent rules and support there is no reason as to why they should not sell at least as well as Marines. Hell, IG and SoB would easily out sell Marines as players whom had all but given up hope, or who where put off by the hilarious prices and ancient models, suddenly found themselves presented with new, decent, models at reasonable prices. marines sales would be tiny in comparison, but once again GW is too thick to see this.
You are living in a fantasy. Nothing has ever sold as well as Marines, and none of the other existing lines ever will. You might get a blip here or there if something has been hung out to dry for ages, and gets a big push, but nothing else in the game will ever match the consistent popularity of Marines, regardless of support levels. What exactly does it matter how old a model is? Many of the Aspect warriors are from the 90's and they are some of the most beautiful models in the game. I play with RTB01 models from the 1980's and pay through the nose to get more on ebay, and then buy the new kits so I have weapon options for them. I do that because that's what I like. I don't complain about it.
And coincidentally nothing has ever been supported as well as Marines. Until that is, Tau and Eldar got some love and suddenly they sell nearly as well as marines do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?
[Facepalm] Lterally no-one one said that.
Actually you did
Automatically Appended Next Post:
master of ordinance wrote: [
This coming from the guy telling us that Marines are the best because mien ubersmench automatically have to be better than everything. Pot meet kettle much?
Where did I say that? Quote me please.
Someone already did that for me
Alright... Guys, I can tell you're all passionate about your armies, and I think that's part of the problem here. You're not seeing things in perspective. Let's shift this back to real world stuff here.
Yes we are. Or at least we would like to see something come our way for once.
GW is a publicly traded corporation.
Do you understand what that means?
It means they are accountable to their shareholders to maximize profits.
Yes yes and yes
It means they have bean counters looking at what costs are on every release and set of releases, and looking at profits for the associated sales.
And I guess the massive profits reaped from a certain aforementioned cannoness just slid under the radar?
The bean counters don't care about space marines, or space elves, or space nuns, or space anything.
They will in a couple of years when the haemorrhage of non-Marine players suddenly catches them in the face.
They care about profits.
Which are dropping
It doesn't cost them any more or less to redesign Marines than it does to redesign anything else. They've obviously looked at their own numbers, and those numbers, (ie: gamers and 40k fans voting with their dollars), and have found Marines to be the most profitable (ie: generate the most sales). This means they will keep doing Marines releases in preference to other things.
And yet the financial results say otherwise. GW is losing none Marine players like no tomorrow and this will soon catch up with them.
It's useless to speculate about whether or not another faction would take up the mantle if they focused the lions share of their resources on them, because that's something that is simply never going to happen. If it was going to, It would have already at some point in the ups and downs of 40k's 30 year history. Even if they could be be just as successful with DE as SM, why would they do it? The've got more work to do to get an army like that up to top tier level, than they do with Marines. Why would they take the risk, and increase their costs, and nerf a proven sales winner just to end up at square one with sales if they're extremely lucky? Maybe your of the belief for some reason that your army could sell better. GW has obviously never had any reason to believe that, and guess what? They have all the numbers in front of them, and you don't, and they're not dumb. They're running a successful corporation, and you're just some person that complains on the internet about it.
Work? Dont make me laugh, I could write a decent top tier Marine or Sisters codex in two weeks, and that is just doing the odd bit here and here after work in the evenings. GW has no excuse for not bothering to update the older codex's, or give the other factions some love.
At some point, if they continue with this level of Marines releases, they will inevitably reach "peak Marines". When we get there, they will start to see diminishing returns on their Marines releases, and they will start looking elsewhere for opportunities. Then, and maybe only then, increasing numbers of other factions will start getting more support.
And by that point it will be too late because the other factions players will have long since gone.
SO
As players of these other factions, you should WELCOME all these Marines releases, because you may not get the support you want for your army until guys like me, who buy Marines, are out of money or sick of Marines.
WHAT?
We should just welcome more and more Marine releases, more and more bolter pron and more and more Marine love because it will eventually lead to this hypothetical point where GW realise just how braindead stupid they have been? I do not know how you arrived at such an outcome but from where I am standing there is no such result as that.
Did I just blow your minds?
Not in the way you wanted.
All that said, Marine players do need more interesting and fun stuff to kill (or be killed by), and a new Edition is nigh, so why don't you guys let your blood pressure ease down a notch and just see what happens.
marines already have that, it is called 'Every Other Faction'.
Kain wrote: I'd argue that the most distinctively 40k faction in Warhammer 40k is the Orks.
The majority of post-star wars space opera settings have transhuman supersoldiers in power armor, many also have transhuman supersoldiers with a knight flavoring or religious undertones too.
Nearly every one of them has some kind of space army.
The bulk of them have some ancient precursor species that is either faded and slowly dying (space elves) or are dormant and are waiting to return to the present like the necrons. Plenty also have some variety of space demons from space hell, like one of the most famous video game franchises ever (DOOM in this case).
Plenty have some coalition of aliens like the Tau with plasma everywhere, and plenty have a swarm of bugs coming to eat everything.
The Orks though? The Orks are far more unique compared to other space opera settings. The closest that comes to mind are Mass Effect's Krogan, but even then they don't quite fit the mold the Orks do of a wild and loud band of English football fans given a green coat of paint and stripped of being able to be anything but English football fans at game night. Like, with a Space marine you might be able to confuse an Astartes for one of a billion other big men in big power armor that exists in Space Fantasy and Science Fiction, but an Ork is basically 100% 40k.
Maybe, but how many have nuns with power armor? Or steampunk priest cyborgs?
By that definition, Navy SEALs are "shock troops" for the United States Army-- which is quite ridiculous. It's a useless definition that doesn't distinguish between external special forces units and internal assault units.
By that definition, Navy SEALs are "shock troops" for the United States Army-- which is quite ridiculous. It's a useless definition that doesn't distinguish between external special forces units and internal assault units.
Feel free to propose a different definition if you don't like the one provided. Here's another one:
shock troops ˈSHäk ˌtro͞ops/
noun a group of soldiers trained specially for carrying out a sudden assault
Which sounds a lot like ye olde Drop Pod assault to me. Not that the SM can't function in a special forces capacity, but sudden assaults is arguably the primary Space Marine strategic doctrine.
Insectum7 wrote: a group of soldiers trained specially for carrying out a sudden assault
Are the FBI an elite Shock Troop then?
You're the one proposing overly broad definitions that include things that don't fit.
Hell, that definition you just gave just now? Includes almost the entire US Armed Force! And plenty of non-military organizations, too! Is that really the one you want to go with?
Insectum7 wrote: a group of soldiers trained specially for carrying out a sudden assault
Are the FBI an elite Shock Troop then?
You're the one proposing overly broad definitions that include things that don't fit.
Hell, that definition you just gave just now? Includes almost the entire US Armed Force! And plenty of non-military organizations, too! Is that really the one you want to go with?
Every classification is contextual. I suppose it could be said that SWAT are the shock troops of law enforcement. It seems perfectly accurate to say that Space Marines are the shock troops of the Imperium. (in fact I believe GW has described them as such.)
I'm not sure what your dog in this fight is anyways, and you still haven't provided a definition of your own in order to illustrate why Marines are not "shock troops".
I'm just defending my assertion that they're a special forces unit rather than "the Imperium's shock troops".
Even "special forces units" aren't quite accurate-- they are not subordinate to the Imperium's whims, after all-- but it's the closest we really have in modern warfare. They're a military organization outside of the ordinary chain of command that takes commands on high to accomplish special goals utilizing unconventional tactics, techniques, and modes of employment. In the same way you won't find the average US Army Captain commanding a unit of Navy SEALs, you won't find an Imperial platoon leader commanding Space Marines. But at the same time, you may very well find a captain commanding something we'd define as "shock troops" in either organiation.
The fact that Space Marines are highly independent and do as they please most of the time makes them para-militaries first and foremost. Organised vigilantes. They are to the Imperial Guard what the Basij are to the Revolutionary Guard in Iran.
Melissia wrote: I'm just defending my assertion that they're a special forces unit rather than "the Imperium's shock troops".
Even "special forces units" aren't quite accurate-- they are not subordinate to the Imperium's whims, after all-- but it's the closest we really have in modern warfare. They're a military organization outside of the ordinary chain of command that takes commands on high to accomplish special goals utilizing unconventional tactics, techniques, and modes of employment. In the same way you won't find the average US Army Captain commanding a unit of Navy SEALs, you won't find an Imperial platoon leader commanding Space Marines. But at the same time, you may very well find a captain commanding something we'd define as "shock troops" in either organiation.
The argument is Space Marines aren't shock troops because they are often under a different chain of command?
Because it is a generic term, why are they not "shock troops", especially if special forces can theoretically be put under the same umbrella.
OMG, you guys are hilarious. GW drops one of the best new units in the game on Sisters, and you find a way to complain about it. You can't use here the same way you did before... Oh no. Do you need a tissue? You guys remind me of people I used to hang out with in the nineties, who would complain that the radio didn't play any of the bands they liked, and the second those bands saw a shred of success, they'd call them sellouts and shittalk them. If your armies did get support, you'd probably hate it, and be on here complaining about how GW "ruined" them. Professional complainers. No more time for that right now sorry.
Master of Ordinance, as much fun as it's been arguing these points with you, it's frankly exhausting having to constantly illustrate how inacurate, myopic, delusional, and willfuly ignorant a lot of what you're saying (as in almost literally every word of yor last post) is. You're not interested in the reality of things, you're just looking for any random, out of context piece of information you can find to throw in my face to justify the way that you feel. That's all you're doing here is feeling with random facts, not thinking objectively. No more time for that right now either. Go ahead and have the last work if you like. I just decided that what you say isn't actually relevant to anything.
Everyone else, I hope your armies get cool new stuff, and I hope the rules balance out for you. Although there are some factions that I think should take more skill to play than others, everyone should have a shot at winning with the units they like. I actually own a Sisters army, and more new models would be great.
So, that's enough of all this for me. I'll be over here anticipating moar marines. And guess what? I'm going to get them, no matter what anybody on this forum says thinks or feels about it (including me), so that's lookin pretty good from where I'm sitting.
Weboflies wrote: OMG, you guys are hilarious GW drops One of the best new units in the game on Sisters, and you find a way to complain about it.
Celestine isn't new to Sisters of Battle. Stop talking about things you have no knowledge of. If anything, the armies Celestine is "new" to aren't Sisters . They're the various flavors of Marines, plus Guard and Inquisition. All of them (save chaos marines of course, since they're not Imperial) can easily take her, and actually honestly benefit more from her than Sisters do.
That's right! Your precious Space Marines got a brand new super-powerful unit... and you're sitting around WHINING that you're upset that Sisters players aren't satisfied because ALL THEY GOT was a relaunch of third edition character they've had all along which was also given to every other Imperial army and isn't actually in the latest iteration of the Sororitas codex, basically taking it form Sisters and giving it to everyone else. That's incredibly petty and entitled of you.
I don't find overly broad terms to be at all useful. Basically, you say "Space Marines are shock troops, they're so cool!" And random idiot on the internet can just respond "Yeah, so's my dick, there's nothing special about shock troops, even cops qualify under that definition, so why should I care that Space Marines are?"
master of ordinance wrote: No OP we do not. Marines already have:
>The most codex's available to use
>The largest number of formations available to use
>The most powerful formations
>The largest model range
>More characters than anyone else
>The most up to date model range in the game
>An ENTIRE VERSION OF 40K DEDICATED TO THEM(30K)
In the meantime the Sisters of battle languish with 3rd/4th edition rules and 20+ year old figures and the Guard stand by with 3rd edition infantry and 5th edition tanks crammed into 7th and kits that are nearly as old as the Sisters. Oh, and we just watched on of our iconic homeworlds fall and got NOTHING. Barely even a mention in the fluff.
(This quote is from several pages ago)
I tend to agree fairly strongly with MoO's sentiments. In fact, I'd like to add that not only did IG not get anything, but they LOST a famous world and are down 2 named characters (as if we'll see Creed again any time before 50k)
I don't find overly broad terms to be at all useful. Basically, you say "Space Marines are shock troops, they're so cool!" And random idiot on the internet can just respond "Yeah, so's my dick, there's nothing special about shock troops, even cops qualify under that definition, so why should I care that Space Marines are?"
Way to stay on topic.
Look, you said the term "shock troops" doesn't apply to marines, while the Wikipedia and Google definitions are basically synonymous with some primary marine doctrines (Drop Pod Assault, for example). If you have some insight feel free to share, but I don't think the "chain of command" reasoning holds up.
I'm mostly getting the idea that you really don't like marines (which is fine), but for all intents and purposes they appear to operate as shock troops and are described as such.
The special forces type of missions are also something that marines (especially scouts) undertake, for sure. But why that makes them not "shock troops" when they also deploy en-masse behind enemy lines and cut loose to create a beachhead or breakpoint. . . it's practically their MO.
You realize I was basically trying to argue that Marines are more elite and important than mere "shock troops", right?
The Imperium has "Shock Troops" by the untold trillions. But they only have a million Space Marines. Marines are a step above mere "shock troops". They're something else.
I mean FFS, what's with people making me defend things I normally don't defend these days?
Weboflies wrote: OMG, you guys are hilarious. GW drops one of the best new units in the game on Sisters, and you find a way to complain about it.
As noted above, Sisters didn't get anything that every other Imperial army didn't, and the Sisters actually get less out of Celestine than most other Imperial factions anyway. They just took a character that used to be exclusive to the Sisters, and gave her to everyone else.
You can't use here the same way you did before... Oh no. Do you need a tissue? You guys remind me of people I used to hang out with in the nineties, who would complain that the radio didn't play any of the bands they liked, and the second those bands saw a shred of success, they'd call them sellouts and shittalk them. If your armies did get support, you'd probably hate it, and be on here complaining about how GW "ruined" them. Professional complainers. No more time for that right now sorry.
Except GW has gone and ruined a lot of them. Look at what the Inquisition/Imperial Agents codecies did to the Inquisition, it left it as nothing more than a wholly incapable and bland shadow of everything that its fluff implied. And the IG updates actively remove options just keep taking stuff away. A lot of these releases come off as extremely lazy afterthoughts meant to act as a stopgap before each non-marine faction fades into nothingness with the Squats.
Melissia wrote: You realize I was basically trying to argue that Marines are more elite and important than mere "shock troops", right?
The Imperium has "Shock Troops" by the untold trillions. But they only have a million Space Marines. Marines are a step above mere "shock troops". They're something else.
I mean FFS, what's with people making me defend things I normally don't defend these days?
Well the intentions were pretty unclear if I may say, and from a strategic standpoint they are often deployed as shock troops, and being elite doesn't really change that. Surely the IG has it's own brand (insert Cadian Shock Troop reference here), but as noted, especially during a multi-Imperial-task-force engagement, the Space Marines naturally fill the role in the broader picture.
Exploring the difference between special forces and shock troops would have been interesting, it's probably not simply tomato tomahto.
The way the Imperium deploys its marines doesn't really gel too well with German Sturmtruppen units in the first world war or Shock divisions and their equivalents employed in the second world war. Shock divisions tended to emphasize the ability to infiltrate into their positions and overwhelming firepower from artillery and infantry over operational mobility (in the first world war because Germany had all of twenty tanks between the entire Heer, in the second because the tanks and mechanized/motorized troops were to exploit the breaches the shock troops made), with the armoured support they did have tending to come from assault guns and heavy tanks rather than more mobile medium tanks.
Standard Astartes tactics lend themselves more to acting as a swift and deadly rapier than as a brutal sledgehammer as is traditionally demanded by historical shock trooper tactics. For one thing, the Astartes' armoured support doesn't have the brute firepower of the Guard's and instead relies more on mobility and precision. The Astartes really are closer to a Special forces unit with greater than normal materiel support; more akin to the VDV than the Shock Divisions.
Weboflies wrote: OMG, you guys are hilarious. GW drops one of the best new units in the game on Sisters, and you find a way to complain about it.
Well, the GW online store says:
Space Marines - 118
Adepta Sororitas - 26
Not to mention all the typical stuff belonging to specific chapters, not included under the generic SM label, and the entire 30k catalogue, all space marines.
A single model it's not significant, sisters are the only army with 20+ years old models, all in metal, and with boxes that cost 3 times the usual plastic ones.
Furthemore SM are the most broken army in the game with eldar, they only need huge nerfs, not new stuff.
Master of Ordinance, as much fun as it's been arguing these points with you, it's frankly exhausting having to constantly illustrate howinacuratemyopic, delusional, and willfuly ignoranta lot of what you're saying
I just think that this needs highlighting here guys: The guy who is a big marine lover and who tells us that the reason marines sell better than anything else is because everyone loves them and secretly wants to be them and that it has nothing to do with them being the most publicised faction, most up to date faction, most loved, etc, and thatmore Marine sales and releases are better for us none marine players - IE we IG/SoB/Ork/Chaos players because reasons is now claiming the above.
GW has created a self-fulfilling prophecy with marines. They only care about model sales. So in their mind, this is best done with the "good guys" and then a bunch opponents for them. Even though I would not characterize the IoM as "good" at all.
Martel732 wrote: GW has created a self-fulfilling prophecy with marines. They only care about model sales. So in their mind, this is best done with the "good guys" and then a bunch opponents for them. Even though I would not characterize the IoM as "good" at all.
^This. Its elementary level marketing. If you are a business with a large product line but all you advertise & update is one product among many, is it any surprise that one product is going to be your most successful? Look at Blackie's example for instance. GW online store:
Space Marines - 118
Adepta Sororitas - 26
That doesn't even include all the marines available on 40k Forgeworld, let alone 30k Forgeworld.
Is anyone surprised that SoB aren't selling well, when 95%+ of their army hasn't been updated in two decades, can't be bought in store, & cost x3 what a normal army costs? SM players need to understand, we aren't picking on them. We are pointing out that if this trend continues this setting is going to die. When 90% of the occupants within a setting get ignored edition after edition, the narrative/immersion ceases to exist. I play guard and my regiment hasn't been updated in 17 years. Imagine playing an army where you haven't been discussed in the fluff in almost two decades. 40k has a massive rich background that doesn't even include marines. Its time GW started talking about it.
Ever looked through the Black Library?
It's suprisingly IoM and Space Marine skewed - there is a lot of information I don't have regarding how a writer gets published but the fact most chapters (even chaos chapters) have a similar or greater number of books than any other race suggests a few possibilities.
1. GW mostly publishes Space Marine stories - end of story.
2. Space Marine stories sell much better than any other race.
3. There aren't many people who can write aliens well. Orcs are the exception, they talk like three year olds but have the brains of mechanical engineers - mechanical engineers who really like fighting.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Ever looked through the Black Library?
It's suprisingly IoM and Space Marine skewed - there is a lot of information I don't have regarding how a writer gets published but the fact most chapters (even chaos chapters) have a similar or greater number of books than any other race suggests a few possibilities.
1. GW mostly publishes Space Marine stories - end of story.
2. Space Marine stories sell much better than any other race.
3. There aren't many people who can write aliens well. Orcs are the exception, they talk like three year olds but have the brains of mechanical engineers - mechanical engineers who really like fighting.
"Allow me to retort........"
Have you read many of the BL novel's?
Many of them are surprisingly full of "shock" non Marine characters - yeah there is bolter porn but there are (with the better authors - Abnet, ADB, Mitchel and quite a few others) plenty of non Marine characters - usually helping to emphasise the sheer inhuman nature of the Astartes.
So say Wrath of Iron (A Highly recommended read)- a brutal depiction of the Iron Hands at war but this is shown not only from the pov of the Marines but also the other Imperial forces - in this case and most particularly the Adeptus Mechancium, I would contend that their story and depiction together with the story of hapless civilian couple caught up in the horror makes the book so much more than just "UHH Marines shoot bad guys" and is essential to making it a great novel.
Same with Helsreach - another quality "Space marine" novel that has so many important non marines. Same with the Night Lords novels, etc etc etc
So your retort to most of the Black Library being "Bolter Porn" is that there are other characters in Space Marine novels?
Like Space Marines don't show up in other races' novels...
Dakka Wolf wrote: So your retort to most of the Black Library being "Bolter Porn" is that there are other characters in Space Marine novels?
Like Space Marines don't show up in other races' novels...
The really annoying bit is when they show up being op-mary-sues in other races. novels.
(Spoilers for Path of the Warrior follow)
Spoiler:
I mean, Karandras going down to a Dreadnaught? And not even a special Dreadnaught, or a Venerable Dreadnaught, or a Contemptor, just a stupid 'boxnaught probably a fifth his age?
My favourite (/sarcasm) part of Fall of Cadia was how every other line about an Imperial Guard regiment doing something heroic, there always seemed to be something added on at the paragraph along the lines of , "...but none could compare to the overwhelming bravery/skill of the Black Templars/Dark Angels/Imperial Fists/Space Wolves." The whole thing read like it was the twin's birthday party (IG/SoB) but the whiny favourite child had to be placated, or else he'd throw a tantrum every time he didn't receive a present as well or get told how extra special he was.
Valkyrie squadron go up against Traitor Titans and are wiped out sacrificing themselves to just ram them instead? LOOK KIDS, IT'S THE STORMHAWKS SHOOTING DOWN HELDRAKES!
Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard hold the line in a sector on the brink? LOOK KIDS, THE DARK ANGELS DO EVEN BETTER!
Karskin reinforce a breach left by retreating conscripts? LOOK KIDS, THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE HERE TO REINFORCE YOU!
Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves to hold the evacuation fields so the remnants of the Imperial forces can get away? LOOK KIDS, HALF THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE SACRIFICING THEMSLEVES TO HOLD OFF THE BLACK LEGION!
Bolter-porn was always going to appear. I think everybody accepted that. But when one of three books is dedicated entirely to it, you'd think they could at least give the Imperial Guard/SoB their moment in the sun, even if it turns out to be loss in the end. At least they could have had a swan song of sorts before the entire setting becomes Horus Heresy 2.0.
Fafnir wrote:Except GW has gone and ruined a lot of them. Look at what the Inquisition/Imperial Agents codecies did to the Inquisition, it left it as nothing more than a wholly incapable and bland shadow of everything that its fluff implied. And the IG updates actively remove options just keep taking stuff away. A lot of these releases come off as extremely lazy afterthoughts meant to act as a stopgap before each non-marine faction fades into nothingness with the Squats.
I'm not quite sure what the issue with Inquisition would be, since the vast majority of their fluff is something along the lines of "Inquisitor Bob grabs whatever regiment happens to be in the area, and tells them to go do whatever", so it's a bit odd for them to have their own private army in the first place.
master of ordinance wrote:I just think that this needs highlighting here guys:
The guy who is a big marine lover and who tells us that the reason marines sell better than anything else is because everyone loves them and secretly wants to be them and that it has nothing to do with them being the most publicised faction, most up to date faction, most loved, etc, and thatmore Marine sales and releases are better for us none marine players - IE we IG/SoB/Ork/Chaos players because reasons is now claiming the above.
Make of this what you will.
Eh....he's still right, or at least the actual point he made vs your butchered strawman is right. Sure, there's probably some tiny portion of players who decided to play marines because of whatever your point is supposed to be, but for the vast, vast, vast majority....I'm assuming they didn't decide to spent hundreds of dollars and a huge portion of their time making an army that they don't like, just because it has more books and a few video games. Do you think the pauldrons have mind control powers and will force someone who really likes the core playstyle or concept or models of nids or IG to play marines instead? I considered running Tau instead of marines (still do, really) but decided against it because for all the stuff that Tau can do on the tabletop that I liked (which wasn't a huge thing, and there's a lot not to like), I don't like most of the models or the faction as much as I liked marines.
Marines have always been prominent, sure. But other armies have also gotten way more support and way more press in the past.....and marines still sold more. E: Heck, you even said that eldar have, baring one edition, always been superior to marines, and yet have never matched them in sales. Strange.
Marines have always been prominent, sure. But other armies have also gotten way more support and way more press in the past.....
You are joking, right?
About the only time Space Marines have been somewhat 'close' to a even playing field in terms of support with other armies was 3rd. Even then they still had Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Black Templars/Salamander spin-off lists, but back then they received maybe one unique kit each (if that) and a few metals. They weren't getting their own frigging tactical marine boxes as well as all the other unnecessary crap the loyalist Space Marines get these days. Hell, that's not to mention all the mini IoM armies shoved out first and foremost so they can be bought as allies for Space Marines.
Marines have always been prominent, sure. But other armies have also gotten way more support and way more press in the past.....
You are joking, right?
About the only time Space Marines have been somewhat 'close' to a even playing field in terms of support with other armies was 3rd. Even then they still had Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Black Templars/Salamander spin-off lists, but back then they received maybe one unique kit each (if that) and a few metals. They weren't getting their own frigging tactical marine boxes as well as all the other unnecessary crap the loyalist Space Marines get these days. Hell, that's not to mention all the mini IoM armies shoved out first and foremost so they can be bought as allies for Space Marines.
What I meant was "they had more support than now", not "more support than marines". And since still marines still outsold everyone else, I don't think this is just a matter of support.
Dakka Wolf wrote: So your retort to most of the Black Library being "Bolter Porn" is that there are other characters in Space Marine novels?
Like Space Marines don't show up in other races' novels...
Arbitrator wrote: My favourite (/sarcasm) part of Fall of Cadia was how every other line about an Imperial Guard regiment doing something heroic, there always seemed to be something added on at the paragraph along the lines of , "...but none could compare to the overwhelming bravery/skill of the Black Templars/Dark Angels/Imperial Fists/Space Wolves." The whole thing read like it was the twin's birthday party (IG/SoB) but the whiny favourite child had to be placated, or else he'd throw a tantrum every time he didn't receive a present as well or get told how extra special he was.
Valkyrie squadron go up against Traitor Titans and are wiped out sacrificing themselves to just ram them instead? LOOK KIDS, IT'S THE STORMHAWKS SHOOTING DOWN HELDRAKES!
Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard hold the line in a sector on the brink? LOOK KIDS, THE DARK ANGELS DO EVEN BETTER!
Karskin reinforce a breach left by retreating conscripts? LOOK KIDS, THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE HERE TO REINFORCE YOU!
Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves to hold the evacuation fields so the remnants of the Imperial forces can get away? LOOK KIDS, HALF THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE SACRIFICING THEMSLEVES TO HOLD OFF THE BLACK LEGION!
Bolter-porn was always going to appear. I think everybody accepted that. But when one of three books is dedicated entirely to it, you'd think they could at least give the Imperial Guard/SoB their moment in the sun, even if it turns out to be loss in the end. At least they could have had a swan song of sorts before the entire setting becomes Horus Heresy 2.0.
Ugh, dont. Half the Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves, forming a living wall between the fallen Celestine and a eleven/twelve millennia old genetically engineered killing machine and his bodyguard to buy her time to recover, BUT THESE AMAZING SPACE WOLVES TURNED ALL HAIRY AND HULKED OUT AND LIKE RIPPED THE gak OUT OF CHAOS REINFORCEMENTS!11!!11!!1111
I hate Space Marines.
Arbitrator wrote: My favourite (/sarcasm) part of Fall of Cadia was how every other line about an Imperial Guard regiment doing something heroic, there always seemed to be something added on at the paragraph along the lines of , "...but none could compare to the overwhelming bravery/skill of the Black Templars/Dark Angels/Imperial Fists/Space Wolves." The whole thing read like it was the twin's birthday party (IG/SoB) but the whiny favourite child had to be placated, or else he'd throw a tantrum every time he didn't receive a present as well or get told how extra special he was.
Valkyrie squadron go up against Traitor Titans and are wiped out sacrificing themselves to just ram them instead? LOOK KIDS, IT'S THE STORMHAWKS SHOOTING DOWN HELDRAKES!
Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard hold the line in a sector on the brink? LOOK KIDS, THE DARK ANGELS DO EVEN BETTER!
Karskin reinforce a breach left by retreating conscripts? LOOK KIDS, THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE HERE TO REINFORCE YOU!
Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves to hold the evacuation fields so the remnants of the Imperial forces can get away? LOOK KIDS, HALF THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE SACRIFICING THEMSLEVES TO HOLD OFF THE BLACK LEGION!
Bolter-porn was always going to appear. I think everybody accepted that. But when one of three books is dedicated entirely to it, you'd think they could at least give the Imperial Guard/SoB their moment in the sun, even if it turns out to be loss in the end. At least they could have had a swan song of sorts before the entire setting becomes Horus Heresy 2.0.
Ugh, dont. Half the Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves, forming a living wall between the fallen Celestine and a eleven/twelve millennia old genetically engineered killing machine and his bodyguard to buy her time to recover, BUT THESE AMAZING SPACE WOLVES TURNED ALL HAIRY AND HULKED OUT AND LIKE RIPPED THE gak OUT OF CHAOS REINFORCEMENTS!11!!11!!1111
I hate Space Marines.
Clearly, you are not the target audience of the mighty G-Dubs. Warhammer 40k endtimes : Now with ultra, ultra marines.
Dakka Wolf wrote: So your retort to most of the Black Library being "Bolter Porn" is that there are other characters in Space Marine novels?
Like Space Marines don't show up in other races' novels...
Uggghh - sigh - read the post.
I did read the post. If you failed to make a point you could always try re-writing it, I'm not going to ignore you.
Kain wrote: The way the Imperium deploys its marines doesn't really gel too well with German Sturmtruppen units in the first world war or Shock divisions and their equivalents employed in the second world war. Shock divisions tended to emphasize the ability to infiltrate into their positions and overwhelming firepower from artillery and infantry over operational mobility (in the first world war because Germany had all of twenty tanks between the entire Heer, in the second because the tanks and mechanized/motorized troops were to exploit the breaches the shock troops made), with the armoured support they did have tending to come from assault guns and heavy tanks rather than more mobile medium tanks.
Standard Astartes tactics lend themselves more to acting as a swift and deadly rapier than as a brutal sledgehammer as is traditionally demanded by historical shock trooper tactics. For one thing, the Astartes' armoured support doesn't have the brute firepower of the Guard's and instead relies more on mobility and precision. The Astartes really are closer to a Special forces unit with greater than normal materiel support; more akin to the VDV than the Shock Divisions.
Thanks for replying about historical shock divisions.
I'd argue that "shock troops" as a term is more about strategic disposition rather than a description of tactics. So even though the "original" shock troops relied heavily on infiltration, they did so because it was a way to strike suddenly and without warning, and thus achieve the "shock". Space Marines use Drop Pods to do the same thing. IMO what's important for the use of the term "shock troops" is the effect, not the method.
As for "rapier" vs. "hammer", I'm not sure how important a distinction it is for the use of the term "shock troop". A primary notion regarding marines is that they are each "worth a 100 normal soldiers" or some such. Some of which is due to their individual capacity, but some of which is due to the mobility of their deployments. A major point is they can use their mobility and superhuman stamina to continue an assault for days or weeks if necessary, rather than deploy quickly and then bug out. They can exploit their own breach of enemy lines to a greater extent than a traditional shock division.
I'm also thinking along the lines of Epic Armageddon styles of deployments, where they function in greater numbers and with more support, rather than the traditional 40K engagements. We could also look at the traditional Legion deployments and contrast them to the current 40K Chapter deployments. The Legions perhaps fought more like historical shock regiments, while Chapters are necessarily bound to smaller, more maneuverable tactics.
Another question might be "What makes Special Forces not shock troops?" The mission seems different to me, but I'm no expert. Special Forces seems to be about sowing disarray behind enemy lines over a sustained period of time, while "shock troops" are more about breaking it all at once.
You've made that very clear. The contempt you feel for those playing them is also very clear.
Is it any wonder when my army languishes without any updates and a constant shafting in the fluff, but Marines get more and more mentions and stories and their codex only goes from strength to strength?
Is it any wonder when my army languishes without any updates and a constant shafting in the fluff, but Marines get more and more mentions and stories and their codex only goes from strength to strength?
Absolutely. Jealousy of another army is not a rational reason for contempt of that army's players.
Is it any wonder when my army languishes without any updates and a constant shafting in the fluff, but Marines get more and more mentions and stories and their codex only goes from strength to strength?
Absolutely. Jealousy of another army is not a rational reason for contempt of that army's players.
Of the players, it is not my fault that the percentage of TFG's/WAAC's within that playerbase is so much higher than other races.
I'm pretty sure the majority of WAAC players choose armies that are easiest to curb stomp others with, so probably Eldar, actually, then a smaller smattering of SM, Tau, Daemons. If you're actually trying to win at all costs, I think "not playing IG/buying models for a top tier army" is one of those costs included under "ALL costs". Just saying.
Meanwhile, I definitely wouldn't say it's fair to condemn the entirety of the SM player base. Sure there will be some bad apples, as will every army (I think that's what CD was trying to get at), but it's pretty undeniable that SM get far too much attention from GW, poster boys or not. Now there's an army that's basically "SM Captains +1 and Chapter Masters +1. Fluff-wise, they're very similar to marines, except their gene seeds are super duper awesome cool Big E gene seeds, so they get to be even MORE special than the super duper awesome cool regular gene seed dudes who are still held in MUCH higher regard by GW than everything else that exists in the same setting.
I'd say it's less the player base and more the delusions of the company forcing crap like that down customers' throats. Not everyone wants to swallow that.
Gamgee wrote: Hastings has said that no factions are being squatted and that some of the xenos races would see models this year. Specifically an ork buggy as an example.
Actually robut rules on the throne now. I don't imagine he rules ultramar directly anymore unless pressing business takes him there.
Still it is not outside the possibility the Tau get changed so much they may as well be Nu Tau so I'm bracing myself despite his assurances. Who knows maybe the Tau won't be the ones getting anything this year. He did seem to imply not all the remaining ones would.
Edit
Truth be told I think it's highly likely that Guillstarties go for Tau first. If I was him I would do it too. They are the weakest faction to crush with a massive crusade. Once the TE space is secure it can be built up and send back reinforcements to the other fronts that lagged behind for awhile and send back triple the forces to them and not have to worry about that direction. It does mean losing ground ot other threats at least for a time while the Tau are focused down though.
If Tau-Cron ever happens as an alliance it would be an act of desperation to save themselves.
Last time I looked at the map, isn't their a gigantic Tyranid tendril coming directly into Tau space? I imagine that will either keep them very occupied or very dead. The thing is rough, I don't think that even if the Tau, Eldar, and IoM all joined forces, they could beat Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons.
KommissarKiln wrote: I'm pretty sure the majority of WAAC players choose armies that are easiest to curb stomp others with, so probably Eldar, actually, then a smaller smattering of SM, Tau, Daemons. If you're actually trying to win at all costs, I think "not playing IG/buying models for a top tier army" is one of those costs included under "ALL costs". Just saying.
Meanwhile, I definitely wouldn't say it's fair to condemn the entirety of the SM player base. Sure there will be some bad apples, as will every army (I think that's what CD was trying to get at), but it's pretty undeniable that SM get far too much attention from GW, poster boys or not. Now there's an army that's basically "SM Captains +1 and Chapter Masters +1. Fluff-wise, they're very similar to marines, except their gene seeds are super duper awesome cool Big E gene seeds, so they get to be even MORE special than the super duper awesome cool regular gene seed dudes who are still held in MUCH higher regard by GW than everything else that exists in the same setting.
I'd say it's less the player base and more the delusions of the company forcing crap like that down customers' throats. Not everyone wants to swallow that.
Even if he wasn't notoriously cheap. His wife won't let him buy new armies. It's the attitude that is the main thing that brings tension to any game with him. You're right that my point was not to judge everybody by a few's actions in any group. My anger stepped on my point.
What I don't get is this: How can anyone who spends anytime looking into, much less build an army in 40k not realize it is Space Marine centric? It's not like GW hides the fact. SMs are on or in almost everything GW releases, so why is it a surprise they favor them? They sell extremely well. You can argue chicken and egg why that is, but it doesn't change the fact SM sales keep GW afloat.
If you don't want to play Space Marines than don't. All I ask is stop accusing SM players of ruining your hobby.
Crimson Devil wrote:In my group the most WAAC guy is a Imperial Guard player. I guess I could judge you based on his behavior. Seems fair doesn't it?
Crimson Devil wrote:
Even if he wasn't notoriously cheap. His wife won't let him buy new armies. It's the attitude that is the main thing that brings tension to any game with him. You're right that my point was not to judge everybody by a few's actions in any group. My anger stepped on my point.
Crimson Devil wrote: In my group the most WAAC guy is a Imperial Guard player. I guess I could judge you based on his behavior. Seems fair doesn't it?
I find it hard to believe that a IG player would be a cheese mongering power list player. Seeing as our powerlists are about the equivalent of other armies friendly lists.
come on man, it's either biker spam or a Gladius. There's literally no variety to 
! Although i wish marines had been made slightly larger, this would indeed invalidate all current models, which i think are perfectly adequate.
just one glaring issue where the rules for Sisters are concerned
:facepalm - Do you even play it?
