I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

 DalinCriid wrote:
I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

Quit using missile launchers. That will help a lot.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

Exactly how do you stay away from something that Deep Strikes and effectively doesn't mishap?

Terrain placement, deployment, Interceptor, and/or bubblewrapping.

Most armies don't have access to Interceptor. Terrain placement I'm curious as to how you would do - it goes up before you choose DZ. Deployment/bubblewrapping doesn't really help - grav amps blows through everything that isn't a 5/6+ save, whom will die to bolterfire. Now I have dead GEQs and 20 grav amp shots incoming. Best I've been able to do is fill up my DZ with Renegades and park my CSMs at back.

It's like look at the way the terrain is placed then use it to your advantage with your deployment as drop pods, if I remember right, can have their guidance rules used against them quite well. Bubblewrapping isn't about protecting the model for the entire game, it's about interrupting that alpha strike and possibly beta strike.

I don't see how can use a Pod's guidance against it, it's zero risk scatter almost guaranteed to go where you want it.
It does specifically say REDUCE scatter, so even if it scatters 12'' it'll pop back that 12''' if you placed it next to a massive blob.
Only way to exploit is when someone doesn't realise off the board still mishaps, so get them to deploy in a corner.
Plus you get a 6'' disembarkation to mitigate any further scatter thst there was.

Compared to regular deep strike where even a 7'' buffer zone all around is risky, Pods need enough space to accomodate the pod and unit, any more actually makes it less accurate.

Castellon robots.

5+ invuln, 5+ FNP, 18 s6 ap3 shots per bot, 12 twinlinked, T7, 3 wounds a pop, with the damn canticles. But wait there's more! It's T7 for a reason. All infantry weapons need a 6 to wound it, so if you wound it, you end up eating your own shots.

With Cawl and grav kataphrons on the board... yea that's a straight up pregame handshake.


Second most hated, Wulfen
The stupidest rules in 40k, guaranteed to kill whatever they touch, fast, buff nearby units and their Hammers swing at my initiative.

3rd would be the Stormsurge for obvious reasons


Im.not even going to mention and Eldar gak with soul burst. That rule effectively broke the game. Phil Kelly out Warded Matt Ward.

My carnifexes are kitted for assault because I'm an old coot who thinks Carnifexes having to rely on shooting to be good is just wrong.

Carnifexes: Charging
Wraithguards: D-scythed
Overwatch: Brutal

My carnifexes are forcibly removed from the tabletop.

The fact that I have to try and engage in shooting matches with the Eldar and almost never get to assault with an army that is supposed to be up there with Khornates and Orks in close combat focus (two other assault armies that mind you; very rarely get to assault with anything but certain beasticks) just rubs me the wrong way. Also wraithguards and wraithblades with fortune and protect on them may as well have a template ranged zone of exclusion around them.

Scatterbikes can also piss off though they at least don't basically delete my TMCs. Just everything else in the army. I would really like it if Dakka Flyrants weren't basically a necessity but at this point I'm so jaded about my primary army struggling against the AdMech, Astartes, Eldar, Tau, and Necrons that I don't feel even the slightest bit bad about fielding Skyblight swarm spam lists.

Martel732 wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

Quit using missile launchers. That will help a lot.

Lascanons didn't do much either. Demon save and that's it.

 DalinCriid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

Quit using missile launchers. That will help a lot.

Lascanons didn't do much either. Demon save and that's it.

If you're going to kill tanks from a distance you may as well man up and get triple predator annihilators (or use the Imperial fists for your Devs and Cents) for that sweet tank hunters bonus. Otherwise the go to way to deal with vehicles for the marines (besides GravCents or GravBikes) is going to be melta weapons; whether transported or drop podded in or on bikes if you're some weirdo who doesn't like grav weapons on their bikes. Standard devastators aren't a particularly efficient way to kill tanks without Tank hunters regardless of whether they're using Krak Missiles or Lascannons. They're also kind of squishy too. Especially without some bolter scrubs to be meatshields for the guys with heavy weapons. A bunch of lascannon or assault cannon razorbacks would also be serviceable for this task since they're dirt cheap anyway, but really Melta weapons are going to be your best bet outside of Grav spam or utilizing triple predators. Unless as mentioned, you're using the Imperial fists in which case you've got tank hunters on your non-vehicular lascannons, thus making them significantly better at putting holes in vehicles.

Dantes_Baals wrote:


Im.not even going to mention and Eldar gak with soul burst. That rule effectively broke the game. Phil Kelly out Warded Matt Ward.

I'm not seeing how they made things that much worse.

SCATTER BIKES

I hate them SO MUCH that i had to buy a STORMSWORD to counter them

The 10" S10 AP1 Ignores Cover Blast WILL Kill them

Plus it forces the eldar player to either A. Stay away from it (It has a 48" Threat Range, so thats a 96" diameter "Safety Bubble") or B. Get behind it (where they will be out in the open and out of range for Psychic Buffs)

 commander dante wrote:
SCATTER BIKES

I hate them SO MUCH that i had to buy a STORMSWORD to counter them

The 10" S10 AP1 Ignores Cover Blast WILL Kill them

Plus it forces the eldar player to either A. Stay away from it (It has a 48" Threat Range, so thats a 96" diameter "Safety Bubble") or B. Get behind it (where they will be out in the open and out of range for Psychic Buffs)

You have much cheaper options. Try a thunder-fire cannon.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
SCATTER BIKES

I hate them SO MUCH that i had to buy a STORMSWORD to counter them

The 10" S10 AP1 Ignores Cover Blast WILL Kill them

Plus it forces the eldar player to either A. Stay away from it (It has a 48" Threat Range, so thats a 96" diameter "Safety Bubble") or B. Get behind it (where they will be out in the open and out of range for Psychic Buffs)

You have much cheaper options. Try a thunder-fire cannon.

Yeah but a Thuderfire isnt S10 AP1 with a 10" Blast
Nor is it on a 14/13/12 9hp Super Heavy Platform

 commander dante wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
SCATTER BIKES

I hate them SO MUCH that i had to buy a STORMSWORD to counter them

The 10" S10 AP1 Ignores Cover Blast WILL Kill them

Plus it forces the eldar player to either A. Stay away from it (It has a 48" Threat Range, so thats a 96" diameter "Safety Bubble") or B. Get behind it (where they will be out in the open and out of range for Psychic Buffs)

You have much cheaper options. Try a thunder-fire cannon.

Yeah but a Thuderfire isnt S10 AP1 with a 10" Blast
Nor is it on a 14/13/12 9hp Super Heavy Platform

This is true! Its just if you are facing eldar - they will have no problem killing that puppy in a single turn with the right weapons. A warp hunter for example - or wraithgards - or firedragons. A few thunderfire cannons will deal with your bike problem for much less and allow you to spend points on other things

 Xenomancers wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
SCATTER BIKES

I hate them SO MUCH that i had to buy a STORMSWORD to counter them

The 10" S10 AP1 Ignores Cover Blast WILL Kill them

Plus it forces the eldar player to either A. Stay away from it (It has a 48" Threat Range, so thats a 96" diameter "Safety Bubble") or B. Get behind it (where they will be out in the open and out of range for Psychic Buffs)

You have much cheaper options. Try a thunder-fire cannon.

Yeah but a Thuderfire isnt S10 AP1 with a 10" Blast
Nor is it on a 14/13/12 9hp Super Heavy Platform

This is true! Its just if you are facing eldar - they will have no problem killing that puppy in a single turn with the right weapons. A warp hunter for example - or wraithgards - or firedragons. A few thunderfire cannons will deal with your bike problem for much less and allow you to spend points on other things

There's a certain carthasis to blowing up a unit of scatterbikes with a big ten inch pie plate of "feth you and everyone you've ever met."

 Kain wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

Quit using missile launchers. That will help a lot.

Lascanons didn't do much either. Demon save and that's it.

If you're going to kill tanks from a distance you may as well man up and get triple predator annihilators (or use the Imperial fists for your Devs and Cents) for that sweet tank hunters bonus. Otherwise the go to way to deal with vehicles for the marines (besides GravCents or GravBikes) is going to be melta weapons; whether transported or drop podded in or on bikes if you're some weirdo who doesn't like grav weapons on their bikes. Standard devastators aren't a particularly efficient way to kill tanks without Tank hunters regardless of whether they're using Krak Missiles or Lascannons. They're also kind of squishy too. Especially without some bolter scrubs to be meatshields for the guys with heavy weapons. A bunch of lascannon or assault cannon razorbacks would also be serviceable for this task since they're dirt cheap anyway, but really Melta weapons are going to be your best bet outside of Grav spam or utilizing triple predators. Unless as mentioned, you're using the Imperial fists in which case you've got tank hunters on your non-vehicular lascannons, thus making them significantly better at putting holes in vehicles.

Grav canon and grav weps are crearly are resolution implying you have the cash mountain to buy bits or 5 boxes of devastators
Anyway. I'm gonna proceed with bitching with more hateful units I don't wan't to see on table

Dark Aeldari:

Ravagers: 3 Dark Lances with the strength of lascanons. Move far, shoot right and of course can jink your heavy weapons to death even if you throw multi melta within 12 in their face. Also open topped... nasty stuff can charge you from there even after it moved...

Incubi: I countered this with shooting at some degree, but still a AP2 at Initiative 6 nastiness.

Venom: Nasty shooting and a lot of cool stuff that can be troweled at your face.

Honorable Mention: Nasty Jetbikes that can move, shoot, run, hit and run or simply turbo boost from one corner of the map to another and grab objectives. Crucial and unfair if you play Contact Lost and even more unfair in Kill Team where you can grab 10? Or maybe even more, didn't counted them.

Tau is the only thing I hate because it's the only I can't get close enough to kill and almost everyone plays them as a gunline. Talk about one dimensional strategies.

 DalinCriid wrote:


Ravagers: 3 Dark Lances with the strength of lascanons. Move far, shoot right and of course can jink your heavy weapons to death even if you throw multi melta within 12 in their face. Also open topped... nasty stuff can charge you from there even after it moved...

Incubi: I countered this with shooting at some degree, but still a AP2 at Initiative 6 nastiness.

Venom: Nasty shooting and a lot of cool stuff that can be troweled at your face.

Honorable Mention: Nasty Jetbikes that can move, shoot, run, hit and run or simply turbo boost from one corner of the map to another and grab objectives. Crucial and unfair if you play Contact Lost and even more unfair in Kill Team where you can grab 10? Or maybe even more, didn't counted them.

Ravagers are not transports, can only snapfire when jinking and their lances are S8, they are worse against AV12 or below. On cruising speed one gun snapfires.
Incubi attack at S4 until they get FC on 4th turn and strike at initiative 1 if they charge through terrain

I think the thread is done, we've reached Dark Eldar units ... lmao.

Well i mean, some people are still salty about Incubi getting AP2 at initiative when many armies can only dream of such things for their infantry (disregarding that this is something they need to make them viable in the first place.)

morgoth wrote:I think the thread is done, we've reached Dark Eldar units ... lmao.

I think the idea of the thread is what we, as players are uncomfortable to play versus. What is op or not op in theory is a whole different story.
And I personally have problems outmaneuvering Dark Eldar. Also, if you think DE are a joke you probably haven't faced Ynnari

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:


Ravagers: 3 Dark Lances with the strength of lascanons. Move far, shoot right and of course can jink your heavy weapons to death even if you throw multi melta within 12 in their face. Also open topped... nasty stuff can charge you from there even after it moved...

Incubi: I countered this with shooting at some degree, but still a AP2 at Initiative 6 nastiness.

Venom: Nasty shooting and a lot of cool stuff that can be troweled at your face.

Honorable Mention: Nasty Jetbikes that can move, shoot, run, hit and run or simply turbo boost from one corner of the map to another and grab objectives. Crucial and unfair if you play Contact Lost and even more unfair in Kill Team where you can grab 10? Or maybe even more, didn't counted them.

Ravagers are not transports, can only snapfire when jinking and their lances are S8, they are worse against AV12 or below. On cruising speed one gun snapfires.
Incubi attack at S4 until they get FC on 4th turn and strike at initiative 1 if they charge through terrain

I meant Dark Eldar Raider, big deal, it can still maintan a lascanon. Also, Implying you have something with AV12 you are ok, but I dont have dreads or preds. My best bet is Razorbacks. In addition, don't what you are talking about but AP 2 on initiative is still a nasty DE cheese. It is almost bad as Calgar, but with a point difference

 Kain wrote:
Well i mean, some people are still salty about Incubi getting AP2 at initiative when many armies can only dream of such things for their infantry (disregarding that this is something they need to make them viable in the first place.)

Their biggest drawback? No grenades and no way to get them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Well i mean, some people are still salty about Incubi getting AP2 at initiative when many armies can only dream of such things for their infantry (disregarding that this is something they need to make them viable in the first place.)

Their biggest drawback? No grenades and no way to get them.

To be honest they could get grenades and a 5++ invulnerable save and they still wouldn't be that overpowering as far as assault units go. Though I mean just about every assault oriented unit has a habit of ending up looking bad next to Khorne Dogs, Wraiths, and the Genestealer cult in general. Though really GW's bizarre insistence on not giving assault grenades to assault units that depend on their initiative to work is just utterly baffling. Do they think that there's an incredible abundance of enemy units outside of cover to be assaulted or something? And while it's not a dark Eldar problem; not giving assault transports at all to a number of armies when certain units like Banshees and Ogryns really do need to be able to hide away in a metal box so they can actually reach their enemy without being half dead already. While steps have at least been taken in the right direction with Banshees (being faster, screwing with overwatch, and assaulting through cover at initiative), you've got units like Ogryns or Melee Tyranid warriors who on top of being mediocre simply have no reliable means of surviving long enough to get into assault and due to a lack of heightened speed or assault transports; can be avoided fairly easily on larger maps. I legitimately think GW's design team still thinks that assault is as powerful as it was in 3rd edition where Baharroth could sweep whole armies off the board in a single assault phase with some luck and the Blood Angels could ride up to you in Rhinos and punch you in the face so hard that your head would come out your ass.

 DalinCriid wrote:

I meant Dark Eldar Raider, big deal, it can still maintan a lasgun. Also, Implying you have something with AV12 you are ok, but I dont have dreads or preds. My best bet is Razorbacks.

S8 is worse than S9 against AV10-12, including Razorbacks. Lance rule only works against AV13-14 and against 13 it has the same power as lascannon

"Ravagers: 3 Dark Lances with the strength of lascanons. Move far, shoot right and of course can jink your heavy weapons to death even if you throw multi melta within 12 in their face. Also open topped... nasty stuff can charge you from there even after it moved... "
Either it is 3 dark lances or it is open-topped transport, not both. I wanted to point it out because I thought your opponent was cheating

"what you are talking about but AP 2 on initiative is still a nasty DE cheese. It is almost bad as Calgar, but with a point difference"
Calgar has assault grenades and S8, not S4. Do you want them to lose to equal points of devastators in close combat?

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:

I meant Dark Eldar Raider, big deal, it can still maintan a lasgun. Also, Implying you have something with AV12 you are ok, but I dont have dreads or preds. My best bet is Razorbacks.

S8 is worse than S9 against AV10-12, including Razorbacks. Lance rule only works against AV13-14 and against 13 it has the same power as lascannon

"Ravagers: 3 Dark Lances with the strength of lascanons. Move far, shoot right and of course can jink your heavy weapons to death even if you throw multi melta within 12 in their face. Also open topped... nasty stuff can charge you from there even after it moved... "
Either it is 3 dark lances or it is open-topped transport, not both. I wanted to point it out because I thought your opponent was cheating

He might as well be cheating, but like I said I don't have much units with great Armor Value. I have Razorbarcks and Rhinos who can still get a beating from Str 8 canons (I should really stop calling them Lascanons).
You can mock me as much as you want, but with my current army I'm struggling against current armies. Yes, of course, I can always drop Centurions and even Imperial Knight, but all this requires time and money.

 DalinCriid wrote:

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:

I meant Dark Eldar Raider, big deal, it can still maintan a lasgun. Also, Implying you have something with AV12 you are ok, but I dont have dreads or preds. My best bet is Razorbacks.

S8 is worse than S9 against AV10-12, including Razorbacks. Lance rule only works against AV13-14 and against 13 it has the same power as lascannon

"Ravagers: 3 Dark Lances with the strength of lascanons. Move far, shoot right and of course can jink your heavy weapons to death even if you throw multi melta within 12 in their face. Also open topped... nasty stuff can charge you from there even after it moved... "
Either it is 3 dark lances or it is open-topped transport, not both. I wanted to point it out because I thought your opponent was cheating

He might as well be cheating, but like I said I don't have much units with great Armor Value. I have Razorbarcks and Rhinos who can still get a beating from Str 8 canons (I should really stop calling them Lascanons).
You can mock me as much as you want, but with my current army I'm struggling against current armies. Yes, of course, I can always drop Centurions and even Imperial Knight, but all this requires time and money.

DE tanks are paper thin, meaning if you engage them and they jink, they have to snapfire, greatly reducing their ability to hit you. I wouldn't worry about trying to kill them, but make them jink. If one jinks, focus your next shots on the next raider/venom. On the offchance they don't jink or fail their jink save, they take damage. Win/win. When I run my DE, mobility is what wins the game, but once my raiders and venoms start taking damage, I start to worry because they can't effectively return fire.

 Flanker wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:

I meant Dark Eldar Raider, big deal, it can still maintan a lasgun. Also, Implying you have something with AV12 you are ok, but I dont have dreads or preds. My best bet is Razorbacks.

S8 is worse than S9 against AV10-12, including Razorbacks. Lance rule only works against AV13-14 and against 13 it has the same power as lascannon

"Ravagers: 3 Dark Lances with the strength of lascanons. Move far, shoot right and of course can jink your heavy weapons to death even if you throw multi melta within 12 in their face. Also open topped... nasty stuff can charge you from there even after it moved... "
Either it is 3 dark lances or it is open-topped transport, not both. I wanted to point it out because I thought your opponent was cheating

He might as well be cheating, but like I said I don't have much units with great Armor Value. I have Razorbarcks and Rhinos who can still get a beating from Str 8 canons (I should really stop calling them Lascanons).
You can mock me as much as you want, but with my current army I'm struggling against current armies. Yes, of course, I can always drop Centurions and even Imperial Knight, but all this requires time and money.

DE tanks are paper thin, meaning if you engage them and they jink, they have to snapfire, greatly reducing their ability to hit you. I wouldn't worry about trying to kill them, but make them jink. If one jinks, focus your next shots on the next raider/venom. On the offchance they don't jink or fail their jink save, they take damage. Win/win. When I run my DE, mobility is what wins the game, but once my raiders and venoms start taking damage, I start to worry because they can't effectively return fire.

Yes, I've noticed that it is way better to force them Jink, rather than trying to completely destroy them. Trying to take them out has prooven to be a complete waste of time. Venom on other side... I am not really sure if the passangers inside are force to snapshot if the model decleared a Jink.

 DalinCriid wrote:
Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Wraithknight!

Lychguard with Dispersions Shields from a Decurion's Reclamation Legion
Joined with Orikan the Diviner,
And the Overlord from the Reclamation Legion.

3+ Invun (re-roll ones)
4+ Reanimation (re-roll ones, and can't be reduced by non-D-weapons....)

morgoth wrote:
I think the thread is done, we've reached Dark Eldar units ... lmao.

This.

 DalinCriid wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

Quit using missile launchers. That will help a lot.

Lascanons didn't do much either. Demon save and that's it.

If you're going to kill tanks from a distance you may as well man up and get triple predator annihilators (or use the Imperial fists for your Devs and Cents) for that sweet tank hunters bonus. Otherwise the go to way to deal with vehicles for the marines (besides GravCents or GravBikes) is going to be melta weapons; whether transported or drop podded in or on bikes if you're some weirdo who doesn't like grav weapons on their bikes. Standard devastators aren't a particularly efficient way to kill tanks without Tank hunters regardless of whether they're using Krak Missiles or Lascannons. They're also kind of squishy too. Especially without some bolter scrubs to be meatshields for the guys with heavy weapons. A bunch of lascannon or assault cannon razorbacks would also be serviceable for this task since they're dirt cheap anyway, but really Melta weapons are going to be your best bet outside of Grav spam or utilizing triple predators. Unless as mentioned, you're using the Imperial fists in which case you've got tank hunters on your non-vehicular lascannons, thus making them significantly better at putting holes in vehicles.

Grav canon and grav weps are crearly are resolution implying you have the cash mountain to buy bits or 5 boxes of devastators
Anyway. I'm gonna proceed with bitching with more hateful units I don't wan't to see on table

Dark Aeldari:

Ravagers: 3 Dark Lances with the strength of lascanons. Move far, shoot right and of course can jink your heavy weapons to death even if you throw multi melta within 12 in their face. Also open topped... nasty stuff can charge you from there even after it moved...

Incubi: I countered this with shooting at some degree, but still a AP2 at Initiative 6 nastiness.

Venom: Nasty shooting and a lot of cool stuff that can be troweled at your face.

Honorable Mention: Nasty Jetbikes that can move, shoot, run, hit and run or simply turbo boost from one corner of the map to another and grab objectives. Crucial and unfair if you play Contact Lost and even more unfair in Kill Team where you can grab 10? Or maybe even more, didn't counted them.

Couldn't help but giggle, dark eldar are terrible.

Oh boy! Three S8 shots at 36" for like 125 points! On an armor 11 platform none the less! And ravagers aren't transports

And Incubi are only I5, T3 does absolutely nothing for them either.

All bikes are dumb in kill team. Ever fought SM scout bike spam? Good, don't, it's horrible. Same with tomb blades and nurgle bikers. Considering reavers have a 5+ armor they are hard countered by anything with ignores cover and they die like bitches when they get charged.

Dark eldar have a total of 4-5 good units in the book. They don't belong here

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

Quit using missile launchers. That will help a lot.

Lascanons didn't do much either. Demon save and that's it.

If you're going to kill tanks from a distance you may as well man up and get triple predator annihilators (or use the Imperial fists for your Devs and Cents) for that sweet tank hunters bonus. Otherwise the go to way to deal with vehicles for the marines (besides GravCents or GravBikes) is going to be melta weapons; whether transported or drop podded in or on bikes if you're some weirdo who doesn't like grav weapons on their bikes. Standard devastators aren't a particularly efficient way to kill tanks without Tank hunters regardless of whether they're using Krak Missiles or Lascannons. They're also kind of squishy too. Especially without some bolter scrubs to be meatshields for the guys with heavy weapons. A bunch of lascannon or assault cannon razorbacks would also be serviceable for this task since they're dirt cheap anyway, but really Melta weapons are going to be your best bet outside of Grav spam or utilizing triple predators. Unless as mentioned, you're using the Imperial fists in which case you've got tank hunters on your non-vehicular lascannons, thus making them significantly better at putting holes in vehicles.

Grav canon and grav weps are crearly are resolution implying you have the cash mountain to buy bits or 5 boxes of devastators
Anyway. I'm gonna proceed with bitching with more hateful units I don't wan't to see on table

Dark Aeldari:

Ravagers: 3 Dark Lances with the strength of lascanons. Move far, shoot right and of course can jink your heavy weapons to death even if you throw multi melta within 12 in their face. Also open topped... nasty stuff can charge you from there even after it moved...

Incubi: I countered this with shooting at some degree, but still a AP2 at Initiative 6 nastiness.

Venom: Nasty shooting and a lot of cool stuff that can be troweled at your face.

Honorable Mention: Nasty Jetbikes that can move, shoot, run, hit and run or simply turbo boost from one corner of the map to another and grab objectives. Crucial and unfair if you play Contact Lost and even more unfair in Kill Team where you can grab 10? Or maybe even more, didn't counted them.

Couldn't help but giggle, dark eldar are terrible.

Oh boy! Three S8 shots at 36" for like 125 points! On an armor 11 platform none the less! And ravagers aren't transports

And Incubi are only I5, T3 does absolutely nothing for them either.

All bikes are dumb in kill team. Ever fought SM scout bike spam? Good, don't, it's horrible. Same with tomb blades and nurgle bikers. Considering reavers have a 5+ armor they are hard countered by anything with ignores cover and they die like bitches when they get charged.

Dark eldar have a total of 4-5 good units in the book. They don't belong here

Those are the units I personally dislike.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Team Bathrobe SMs

I think this might be my new favorite nickname for DA.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Team Bathrobe SMs

I think this might be my new favorite nickname for DA.

They've been demoted. From dresses to dressing gowns.

(Oh hell, I've been building Deathwatch models out of old DA Veterans in robes. Team Hand-Me-Down Dressing Gowns?)

In general I dislike playing against just about anything tau. It seems like even an "average" tau list just eats through the stuff I like to run. For my DA, the absolute masses of ignore cover means that my black knights vaporize, and a 40 point model relying on a 3+ armor, even against pulse rifles, falls over way too fast. Then I drop in a load of deathwing and either place them halfway across the table behind a building (and still risk scattering into the open) or put them somewhere actually useful that they'll just get erased by a EWO. Alternately they go up against my guard, who outside of Pask punisher can't kill a riptide to save their lives, plus my infantry evaporates to their shooting (that ignores the only save guardsmen ever get).

2nd edition Pulsa Rokkets or kitted up 2nd edition chaos term/khorne Commander

One gives you no chance to do anything vs it the other takes an average of too many lascannon shots to kill.

3rd edition was Tau/Necrons

not familiar with the rest.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Warp Spiders, at least when there's more than a couple of units of them. Really I hate any list that just spams stuff, but when people spam these annoying, untouchable, fast-moving things, it really gets me. People complain about things like Scatbikes and Wraithknights, but to me those are manageable, whereas Warp Spiders are way more frustrating to deal with.

Gaunts, Harpies, Trigons, Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, Warriors, etc.

Pretty much all 'nids in general as they just soak up all damage and rip you apart in melee.

Like many people here, what always gets me is a big pack of Scatterbikes with psykers.

Now I only play at 1000-1350 points, so as AdMech I don't really have anything to fight that, I don't have the speed. I may make them jink for a turn, but the next he'll make some psyker powers to reroll failed to-hits or to-wound and still decimates my units from across the table with snapshots, this is ridiculous. I have no idea how to fight this with my current units.

I tried charging a Sicarian Infiltrators squad in there but four of them died in overwatch, the one surviving killed 2 bikes though.

SubCommander wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Warp Spiders, at least when there's more than a couple of units of them. Really I hate any list that just spams stuff, but when people spam these annoying, untouchable, fast-moving things, it really gets me. People complain about things like Scatbikes and Wraithknights, but to me those are manageable, whereas Warp Spiders are way more frustrating to deal with.

Gaunts, Harpies, Trigons, Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, Warriors, etc.

Pretty much all 'nids in general as they just soak up all damage and rip you apart in melee.

How are warriors soaking up much of anything with their 4+ armor saves and amazing vulnerability to instant death? How are harpies being all that threatening when they're the least imposing FMC in the game? How is it that Gaunts are durable in a meta where people are flinging around as much infantry erasing dakka as they are now? And how are Trygons still scary in this day and age when T6 W6 and 3+ saves for a gargantuan creature sized model (that doesn't get any gargantuan creature benefits) is peanuts for most of the top tier armies to annihilate the second it bursts out of its tunnel? I mean, we're talking about an expensive, hard to conceal unit that is seriously threatened by a simple ten man squad of dire avengers (nevermind Eldar wraiths nuking it off the board with the almighty D) and does not have the range to avoid their shooting. The Trygon has been pretty mercilessly savaged by the edition changes.

First there was the fleet and furious charge nerf which reduced its ability to get into fights and reduced its ability to deal damage when it got there, though the poison buff at least was something. Then came the new book with its heavy scything talon nerf that greatly reduced the Trygon's ability to land hits in assault, then came the smash nerf which basically killed the Trygon's ability to threaten vehicles and GCs at all. The Trygon lacks speed and killing power and with the change in the meta, what used to be a decently tanky statline is now trivial for any of the top tier armies to clean off the table. And the cruellest joke is how the Trygon has this gorgeous looking diorama where it's pitted against an Imperial Knight; standing eye to eye with it when now it would barely be able to hurt the knight at all with a single smash attack per round while the Knight promptly carves it a new donkey-cave with its D-strength chainsword. A crying shame for the model that *started* the whole trend of big ovalbase models that in an earlier age might have been more at home at apocalypse only to be power creeped and nerfed into depressing mediocrity.

 Kain wrote:

How are warriors soaking up much of anything with their 4+ armor saves and amazing vulnerability to instant death? How are harpies being all that threatening when they're the least imposing FMC in the game? How is it that Gaunts are durable in a meta where people are flinging around as much infantry erasing dakka as they are now? And how are Trygons still scary in this day and age when T6 W6 and 3+ saves for a gargantuan creature sized model (that doesn't get any gargantuan creature benefits) is peanuts for most of the top tier armies to annihilate the second it bursts out of its tunnel? I mean, we're talking about an expensive, hard to conceal unit that is seriously threatened by a simple ten man squad of dire avengers (nevermind Eldar wraiths nuking it off the board with the almighty D) and does not have the range to avoid their shooting.

He plays SM with 3 fully kitted tacs (10 man missile launcher plasma pistol and power weapon), 2 tactical term squads, a dread and LRC.
Not exactly erasing much at 1750 points.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

 Kain wrote:

How are warriors soaking up much of anything with their 4+ armor saves and amazing vulnerability to instant death? How are harpies being all that threatening when they're the least imposing FMC in the game? How is it that Gaunts are durable in a meta where people are flinging around as much infantry erasing dakka as they are now? And how are Trygons still scary in this day and age when T6 W6 and 3+ saves for a gargantuan creature sized model (that doesn't get any gargantuan creature benefits) is peanuts for most of the top tier armies to annihilate the second it bursts out of its tunnel? I mean, we're talking about an expensive, hard to conceal unit that is seriously threatened by a simple ten man squad of dire avengers (nevermind Eldar wraiths nuking it off the board with the almighty D) and does not have the range to avoid their shooting.

He plays SM with 3 fully kitted tacs (10 man missile launcher plasma pistol and power weapon), 2 tactical term squads, a dread and LRC.
Not exactly erasing much at 1750 points.

Well I mean if you're going to play an army mostly made out of what you can get straight out of a box you're probably going to just struggle in general. But the idea of warriors being hard to wipe out is just bizarre to me when Warriors have been able to do almost nothing besides take the nearest S8+ pieplate or bucket load of S8 attacks to the face and immediately wasting all those points you sank into a unit that's almost as expensive as TEQs but oh so much easier to wipe out. Whether it was Leman Russ tanks, Psyfledreads, DEldar lances, and Long Fang missile spam in 5th edition, overcharged Ion cannons and Iontides in general, Forgefiends, Lance spam and the like in 6th edition, or 7e's proliferation of the almighty D my warriors have almost never not been turned inside out within moments of being targeted since they lost EW and the option to upgrade their armor saves and toughness from the 4e book. Warriors have terrible resiliency per point the second S8 is brought to play. And the remedy of catalyst doesn't do a thing to alleviate that horrid squishiness. Meanwhile, Wraithgards/blade; being the other weird TEQ equivalent, can get Protect to protect against something as simple as krak missiles or battle cannons, and one variety of wraithguard can get a decent invulnerable save.

The best you can really do is Venomthropes and Catalyst, but that's a lot of points into trying to beef up a unit that has pretty mediocre damage output for what you're paying. And a frustrating number of armies just do not care about the shrouding that Venomthropes can give warriors.

Drop pods. Especially when I'm bringing my Orkz. Sure its nice to bring your army closer to me, but.... i would like to leave my deployment zone too.

I'm going to say drop pods too. Basically any sort of alpha strike crap.

Valkyries and Vendettas used to drive me insane! The sheer amount of firepower was always too much for me to handle, and the save bonus from flying always made them hard to hit.

glados wrote:
I'm going to say drop pods too. Basically any sort of alpha strike crap.

You can often make that backfire for your opponent though.

Wraith knights and thunderwolves.

Anything that is very difficult to deal with will be unpopular.
Anything that is impossible to deal with makes for a gakky game.

The worst game I ever had was against a Space Wolves with GK allies. Enough psychic to deny my important powers. Which meant that I couldn't stop one unit of thunderwolves from killing 2000pts of daemons while the other (identical) unit of thunderwolves watched from an objective.

I have dealt with D flamer wraithguard, who can be quite ineffective if you can get them to footslog before they cross the table. I've dealt with up to 2 riptides at once, though partly I got extremely lucky with a Riptide v Bullgryn CC, for which I'm extremely proud of my big fellas, and I admit it wasn't Triptide Wing. I've faced rerollable jink Ravenwing, if you have ample Ignores Cover it's not a problem unless your opponent is getting really lucky with his MEQ armor saves...

Units I haven't had the... pleasure, of playing against include Warp Spiders, Scatbikes, Wraithknights, Stormsurges, and IKs. The scatbikes and WK I'm not looking forward to playing against. I think I might be able to handle a single Stormsurge, but two of them and Triptide I can imagine being annoying as hell.

S10 pie plates. These things can wipe entire squads which is especially annoying in 30k when playing mechanicum. No matter what my game plan is, it changes when s10 blasts are on the board - they must die. Fast. If I get second turn, it really screws with how I like to deploy.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
S10 pie plates. These things can wipe entire squads which is especially annoying in 30k when playing mechanicum. No matter what my game plan is, it changes when s10 blasts are on the board - they must die. Fast. If I get second turn, it really screws with how I like to deploy.

...Wait, why are you bothered by S10 blasts? Your main DT is almost completely immune to them from the front (AV14 and a Flare Shield to resolve blasts at -2S). And it takes rather a lot of S10 blasts to batter past Castellax' 4 Wounds and Invulnerable save.

...How do you get enough S10 blasts to scare a Taghmata player?

At this point, Guilliman

Half of this screams "I don't care if it's fluffy! It's sort of hard to deal with so Space Marines should only footslog!"

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Half of this screams "I don't care if it's fluffy! It's sort of hard to deal with so Space Marines should only footslog!"

I presume this means gladius?
Free transports are not fluffly or fun. Why aren't they fluffy? Because these still have to build, maintain and supply the transports.
Transports you actually pay for are much less OP.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Half of this screams "I don't care if it's fluffy! It's sort of hard to deal with so Space Marines should only footslog!"

They're not wrong, though...

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Half of this screams "I don't care if it's fluffy! It's sort of hard to deal with so Space Marines should only footslog!"

they don't have to walk, but pay for you transports.... playing my 1850 orks against 2100+ points that was discounted to 1850 with free transports is not appealing.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Half of this screams "I don't care if it's fluffy! It's sort of hard to deal with so Space Marines should only footslog!"

they don't have to walk, but pay for you transports.... playing my 1850 orks against 2100+ points that was discounted to 1850 with free transports is not appealing.

Or give us free transports. You can have free Razorbacks if I can have free Wave Serpents.

(Disclaimer: This answer is a parody and is not intended to be read as an attempt to advocate for anyone to get big chunks of free units in any game of 40k, because that would be dumb.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Half of this screams "I don't care if it's fluffy! It's sort of hard to deal with so Space Marines should only footslog!"

they don't have to walk, but pay for you transports.... playing my 1850 orks against 2100+ points that was discounted to 1850 with free transports is not appealing.

Or give us free transports. You can have free Razorbacks if I can have free Wave Serpents.

(Disclaimer: This answer is a parody and is not intended to be read as an attempt to advocate for anyone to get big chunks of free units in any game of 40k, because that would be dumb.)

Did somebody say free Chimeras?!?!

 KommissarKiln wrote:

Did somebody say free Chimeras?!?!

Can you imagine the fit Battle company Space marine players would pitch if GW did that?
That is EASILY doubling the points of an Imperial Guard army....

I for one would be taking min squads of DA for my elder for free waveserpants and min nobz squads for the battlewagons or trukks. the age of freetransporthammer40k has arrived.

 KommissarKiln wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Half of this screams "I don't care if it's fluffy! It's sort of hard to deal with so Space Marines should only footslog!"

they don't have to walk, but pay for you transports.... playing my 1850 orks against 2100+ points that was discounted to 1850 with free transports is not appealing.

Or give us free transports. You can have free Razorbacks if I can have free Wave Serpents.

(Disclaimer: This answer is a parody and is not intended to be read as an attempt to advocate for anyone to get big chunks of free units in any game of 40k, because that would be dumb.)

Did somebody say free Chimeras?!?!

I heard "BUY ONE, GET ONE" specials on Wraithknights.

Elysians getting free Valkyries anyone?

I thought it was more of a complaint about the concept of drop pods, not the freeness.

The free vehicle thing is basically GW admitting that stock marines need a handicap to play the game straight up against Xeno power lists.

IoM deathstar lists are a gimmick for sure, and not what I would consider playing straight up.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Half of this screams "I don't care if it's fluffy! It's sort of hard to deal with so Space Marines should only footslog!"

But... i don't care if it's fluffy.

I mean, would you play against 5 IKs and have a good time? No? But they're a separate faction, that's how they *should* be played! What's that you say? Game mechanics are an entirely separate thing from game background?

Space Marine drop pods change the game from a tactical wargame to an incredibly involved deployment phase, then an action packed single turn wherein the game is completely 100% decided 100% of the time. Much like fighting against an army of knights, say, or a single superheavy, or a big beefed up psychic deathstar, it's an interesting tactical challenge..one time.

That's the problem with low-interactive lists, or lists that drastically change the setup of the game. They can be as fluffy as you want. 2000 points of ork boyz in a green tide is fluffy. Would you want to play that more than a couple times?

Depends on how many pods. I typically use 1-3 pods. My games do not go the way you describe at all.

If those FREE Transports were Pods or Rhinos for full 10-man squads (only), nobody would be complaining.

Plague marines. I know that there is worse out there but I hates them.

Grav: too good against everything

Invisibility: just no, this spell should be invisible itself

Anything that up your points for free. Wehn I agree to play a 1500 point game I want a 1500 point game not 1500vs1800 from both a time and a fairness point of view:

on a more personal note: wulfen, they are so good in CC and just irritate me when I compare them to what the TS got in wrath of magnus. ( I want to play CSM not demons and their power armoured overlords).