Army Ideas!

This is genuine, iv got three ideas that really speak to me and I am not sure which to go with.

Imperial Guard Suicide Squad:
Basically criminals and mutants of the slums and hiveworlds, the undesirables, Stouts, Servitors, Ratlings, Ogryns, Wulfen, brutal criminals and rogues. People that are the most expendable, sent to the most hellish far reaches of the galaxy and who grow a tight bond together as companions and the undesirables of the empire.
This speaks to me as a very fun concept and something I can see myself getting really attached too.

Amazonian Space Marines:
Exactly as the title suggests, created on there homeworld of Themiscyra by a rogue Organiscist Cultus for vain legacy purposes and deployed around the galaxy serving his goals and
staying one step ahead of the inquisition for the high crime of suspected heretical gene-seed tampering.

Geu'vesa Tau Unit:
Left behind by the imperial guard they were captured by the Tau and learned of the greater good, armed with a new purpose and knowlage there commander rose to the occasion and integrated into Tau society so thoroughly that she now leads Tau soldiers into battle and holds official rank and trust within the fire caste.
I would rely heavily on imperial guard troops but mix it with Tau soldiers and invest in a female commander unit. This is lore friendly as the Tau do not acknowledge race or origins only your dedication to the greater good and your service to the Tau empire.

The Mercenary Core:
A unbound army made up of only alien models without armies of there own, a Sslyth commander, Stingwings, Many Assorted Kroot Units, Human Mutants like Ogryn & Ratlings (by far my favourite unit by design is the Ratlings )
All with the common goal of making a name for themselves as fierce deadly mercenaries owning no allegiances or loyalty to anyone other than the highest bidder.
I really like this idea as its purely unique and makes use of some of the most intriguing units in the game, However! from what I hear rulewise its a bit of a clusterf**k.

This is part a discussion on the viability of the army concepts and part a discussion on the lore and story potential which is what truly excites me about these ideas.

I am excited to do any one of these.

Merc army would be fun, as there are plenty of mercs out there for the majority of races. But would be hard to do ruels wise.. (also mercs tend to be smaller bands not full armies)

Guard/Tau works and is easy, you have the option of converting the Guard to be fully intergrated and use just tau rules, or do an allied army of Tau/Guard

I like the Amazonian Spacemarine Idea, but I know there would be people sheading tears over there are no female spacemarines

Suicide Squad has been done before (Last Chancers) and is the most boring of the options

GodDamUser wrote:
Merc army would be fun, as there are plenty of mercs out there for the majority of races. But would be hard to do ruels wise.. (also mercs tend to be smaller bands not full armies)

Guard/Tau works and is easy, you have the option of converting the Guard to be fully intergrated and use just tau rules, or do an allied army of Tau/Guard

I like the Amazonian Spacemarine Idea, but I know there would be people sheading tears over there are no female spacemarines

Suicide Squad has been done before (Last Chancers) and is the most boring of the options

Huh, ima have to look into the last chancers, it sounds neat.

So you think that the most solid idea is the Tau than?

I do relish the idea of pissing off everyone around me with my space marines, but iv already had a post shut down with accusations of trolling for lashing back at the outraged masses, so i dont really want to re-visit that on the forum.

And I am still interested in the idea of using the Ratlings in some way, I really like em.

---------

Question: Are there any other Abhuman units that I am not aware of?

Well, you could use Beastmen as your guardsmen if you want to go hardcore abhuman: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Beastmen

The mercenary army sounds like it would be a lot of fun to put together! you've got lots of variety to keep things from getting dull and i always like to see more nonhuman and mutant stuff out there.

the older fluff had whole ratling planets, i think, it might be interesting to make an army based around that, rather then them as just auxilliries.

(i personally like the idea of female space marines, so you aren't going to upset me with that)

 DizzyStorey wrote:
And I am still interested in the idea of using the Ratlings in some way, I really like em.

With Ratliings it would be simple..

If you go Tau/Guard use them as ratlings =D

if you go full Tau, convert them into pathfinders is what I suggest

 amazingturtles wrote:
The mercenary army sounds like it would be a lot of fun to put together! you've got lots of variety to keep things from getting dull and i always like to see more nonhuman and mutant stuff out there.

the older fluff had whole ratling planets, i think, it might be interesting to make an army based around that, rather then them as just auxilliries.

(i personally like the idea of female space marines, so you aren't going to upset me with that)

Yeah there are plenty of bits you can buy on like Bits.com or whetever. you can buy misc pieces and arms and legs.
Id think buying chaos tentacles and such would add some really cool flare to a few of them.

Its hard to run out of options with the Suicide Squad of Abhumans & The Mercenaries.
I really wanted a unit that i could make every single unit unique, name em and get attached.

Given you want to collect an extremely diverse set of models and use them together, maybe you should look into other games better able to support this kind of play. Osprey Games just published a rule set called Rogue Stars. It's a generic sci fi rule set. You can use any models and the rules are flexible enough to build just about anything - other than vehicles and the really huge monsters - that you can find in the various 40k factions. Rogue Stars is just one example - there are other rule sets for doing this kind of thing. The 40k rule set tends to be focused on selling large quantities of models from the same lines. I really enjoy 40k fluff but haven't bought many 40k models in years thanks to the state of the rules.

Manchu wrote:
Given you want to collect an extremely diverse set of models and use them together, maybe you should look into other games better able to support this kind of play. Osprey Games just published a rule set called Rogue Stars. It's a generic sci fi rule set. You can use any models and the rules are flexible enough to build just about anything - other than vehicles and the really huge monsters - that you can find in the various 40k factions. Rogue Stars is just one example - there are other rule sets for doing this kind of thing. The 40k rule set tends to be focused on selling large quantities of models from the same lines. I really enjoy 40k fluff but haven't bought many 40k models in years thanks to the state of the rules.

Well the space marines and the Imperial Army squads are both complete from the same lines just a few extra bits ( and i can combine them into one massive army if needed )
The Tau use human units yes but thats listed in the rules as acceptable and encouraged.

The mercenary idea granted is exactly as you described, a lot of models from different sets.

If you really want a rule set published by GW, you might want to follow Shadow War Armageddon. GW just announced this on Tuesday. It is a reintroduction of their fig-by-fig activation "skirmish" scale gaming, where you control about a dozen figs rather than dozens of them as in 40k proper. It will still suffer from the various problems with 40k's basic mechanics but it may be more suitable to your goals.

Of your ideas, I like the Gue'Vesa auxillary unit the best. The idea of humans turning their back on the Imperium for a materially better but - one guesses - spiritually dead (but I'm sure heavily rationalized) life really fascinates me. The conversions will be challenging but very doable and not super expensive, especially if you end up going for the smaller scale game over 40k.


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 DizzyStorey wrote:
Are there any other Abhuman units that I am not aware of?

Ever heard of felinids? Catgirl Gue'Vesa auxillaries ...

Manchu wrote:
If you really want a rule set published by GW, you might want to follow Shadow War Armageddon. GW just announced this on Tuesday. It is a reintroduction of their fig-by-fig activation "skirmish" scale gaming, where you control about a dozen figs rather than dozens of them as in 40k proper. It will still suffer from the various problems with 40k's basic mechanics but it may be more suitable to your goals.

Of your ideas, I like the Gue'Vesa auxillary unit the best. The idea of humans turning their back on the Imperium for a materially better but - one guesses - spiritually dead (but I'm sure heavily rationalized) life really fascinates me. The conversions will be challenging but very doable and not super expensive, especially if you end up going for the smaller scale game over 40k.


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 DizzyStorey wrote:
Are there any other Abhuman units that I am not aware of?

Ever heard of felinids? Catgirl Gue'Vesa auxillaries ...

Do the felinids have a model?
The only mutants I know of having a model is the Ogryns and the Ratlings.

There is no official felinid model, you would have to convert them.

Manchu wrote:
There is no official felinid model, you would have to convert them.

Are there any cat heads I can buy for a conversion?
What official Abhuman models are there?

These are some kickass ideas

I think you've hit on an excellent idea with the 'Amazonian' thing. Just drop the whole 'Space Marine' moniker from it and it works perfectly. A vain Tech Priest that thought he'd make an entire world of technologically and biologically augmented female warriors. Use Space Marine rules, but they're actually just differently augmented

You could really go to town on creepy conversions too. Feminine models with various cybernetic enhancements as befits a Tech Priest

For your penal legion idea, there are all kinds of 3rd party retailers that put out kits that are basically IG in all different styles. Mix and match for max fun.
Same 3rd party retailers also produce female heads so you could switch out with male SM heads for the Amazonians.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
These are some kickass ideas

I think you've hit on an excellent idea with the 'Amazonian' thing. Just drop the whole 'Space Marine' moniker from it and it works perfectly. A vain Tech Priest that thought he'd make an entire world of technologically and biologically augmented female warriors. Use Space Marine rules, but they're actually just differently augmented

You could really go to town on creepy conversions too. Feminine models with various cybernetic enhancements as befits a Tech Priest

Thank you very much!
I actually love coming up with army ideas, I did the same thing in magic the gathering and all my other little hobbies, sitting around coming up with fun builds and concepts.

I was actually playing around with the idea of connecting them to the thunder warriors, saying the tech priest got there hands on an intact relative of the ancient thunder warriors ( the unstable beta of the space marines ) they were created through a separate process that was not predicated on genetic compatibility with the primearchs.
There are a million work arounds if you pay attention to the fluff hard enough.


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 Flanker wrote:
For your penal legion idea, there are all kinds of 3rd party retailers that put out kits that are basically IG in all different styles. Mix and match for max fun.
Same 3rd party retailers also produce female heads so you could switch out with male SM heads for the Amazonians.

I was thinking of picking up some chaos bits, so random tentacles and horns. Maybe some beastmen ( which are in the lore and its cool! )
Making every unit unique and fun and different! Even some regular humans and such too, it could be fun. men and woman of the imperium all working together and forging tight bonds of friendship!

That's a kickass idea I love creating novel armies using existing 40k rules/fluff too

One of mine is Knight World militia using a mix of Skitarii, and Imperial Knight and Krieg Death Riders, all put together with a mix of Fantasy Empire and Skitarii bits

My exodites in my sig are the same story

Out of all of them, I'll rank my picks:

1) Gue'vesa. Easy to convert, easy to play with. Replace Fire Warriors and Pathfinders and other infantry sized Tau models with human heads and suchlike, leave the Battlesuits to the actual Tau (because they're not built for humans) and bob's you uncle. No need to make new rules, no need to break fluff.
It's better if your Gue'vesa were descended from abandoned humans, as then you can really go into Tau integration, as they've known nothing else.

2) The suicide squad idea. Just a bunch of Guard Veterans, maybe embrace the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team ruleset to get induvidual Ratlings, Ogryns, medics, Scions etc etc into the list - of course, that isn't GW sanctioned. I would stick away from Wulfen, at least, the SW Wulfen, because they have no reason to stick around. Keep them human, keep them as the underdogs, and you shouldn't go too far wrong. See the Last Chancers for ideas.

3) The mercs. It would be hard to do, and solely rely on Unbound and MSU - there'd be no way to get a single Ratling, for example. But it could certainly have potential - I'd suggest having Kroot, Sslyth, little Vespid, humans, Orks, Ogryns, Ratlings - nothing like Astartes, Tyranids, Tau or Eldar or suchlike.
As an idea, consider an Inquisitor as a count as Rogue Trader to lead them, who has hired them out. Take Scions or an Inquisitorial warband in a Valkyrie to be the Trader's retinue, and leave the mercs to their job. That way, you can convert some alien Death Cultists, Jokaero and Daemonhosts.

4) Amazonian Marines

I'm saying least for this for two reasons. One, unless you change them to be genetically engineered humans (but not actually Astartes, so lacking certain organs, abilities etc etc) it breaks fluff. It's a constant of 40k - like how Khorne is the god of blood, and not the god of friendliness. You want women in power armour - SOB. You want genetically engineered women in power armour? Make them enhanced or even abhumans given power armour by a generous sponsor in a faction of the Imperium (Ecclesiarchy - the amazons are fanatically loyal to the sun god aka the Emperor, and they use the amazons as their own retinue//Adeptus Mechanicus or Rogue Trader- a loyal bodyguard for the one who found them//Inquisition - the inquisitor dislikes the Adeptus Astartes and Sisters of Battle, and forges their own retinue from local abhuman natives) or even have looted the power armour themselves from a long extinct Chapter on their planet.
Make them abhuman. Make them simply incredibly powerful. Make them whatever. But don't call them Adeptus Astartes. Because there's nothing in the fluff to actually support, or condone, them being actual Space Marines.
That doesn't mean they can't use Space Marine rules though.

My other reason for saying no is because of your reasoning.
"I do relish the idea of pissing off everyone around me with my space marines, but iv already had a post shut down with accusations of trolling for lashing back at the outraged masses, so i dont really want to re-visit that on the forum. "
You acknowledge that it's a touchy and taboo subject, yet you go out of your way to instigate people instead of accepting limitations of the setting? I just call that as being bad taste. Deliberately trying to rile people up? In fact, on this forum at least, it's a breach of rules.

I don't like the idea of female Space Marines, from a lore perspective. That doesn't mean I won't help you work around it. Abhuman women in power armour - they're not Space Marines, but could fit the same rules for them. But in the eyes of the Imperium, they're not Astartes.

TL;DR - Your call, but I think Gue'vesa will be easiest, and have the most fun/opportunity.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Out of all of them, I'll rank my picks:

1) Gue'vesa. Easy to convert, easy to play with. Replace Fire Warriors and Pathfinders and other infantry sized Tau models with human heads and suchlike, leave the Battlesuits to the actual Tau (because they're not built for humans) and bob's you uncle. No need to make new rules, no need to break fluff.
It's better if your Gue'vesa were descended from abandoned humans, as then you can really go into Tau integration, as they've known nothing else.

2) The suicide squad idea. Just a bunch of Guard Veterans, maybe embrace the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team ruleset to get induvidual Ratlings, Ogryns, medics, Scions etc etc into the list - of course, that isn't GW sanctioned. I would stick away from Wulfen, at least, the SW Wulfen, because they have no reason to stick around. Keep them human, keep them as the underdogs, and you shouldn't go too far wrong. See the Last Chancers for ideas.

3) The mercs. It would be hard to do, and solely rely on Unbound and MSU - there'd be no way to get a single Ratling, for example. But it could certainly have potential - I'd suggest having Kroot, Sslyth, little Vespid, humans, Orks, Ogryns, Ratlings - nothing like Astartes, Tyranids, Tau or Eldar or suchlike.
As an idea, consider an Inquisitor as a count as Rogue Trader to lead them, who has hired them out. Take Scions or an Inquisitorial warband in a Valkyrie to be the Trader's retinue, and leave the mercs to their job. That way, you can convert some alien Death Cultists, Jokaero and Daemonhosts.

4) Amazonian Marines

I'm saying least for this for two reasons. One, unless you change them to be genetically engineered humans (but not actually Astartes, so lacking certain organs, abilities etc etc) it breaks fluff. It's a constant of 40k - like how Khorne is the god of blood, and not the god of friendliness. You want women in power armour - SOB. You want genetically engineered women in power armour? Make them enhanced or even abhumans given power armour by a generous sponsor in a faction of the Imperium (Ecclesiarchy - the amazons are fanatically loyal to the sun god aka the Emperor, and they use the amazons as their own retinue//Adeptus Mechanicus or Rogue Trader- a loyal bodyguard for the one who found them//Inquisition - the inquisitor dislikes the Adeptus Astartes and Sisters of Battle, and forges their own retinue from local abhuman natives) or even have looted the power armour themselves from a long extinct Chapter on their planet.
Make them abhuman. Make them simply incredibly powerful. Make them whatever. But don't call them Adeptus Astartes. Because there's nothing in the fluff to actually support, or condone, them being actual Space Marines.
That doesn't mean they can't use Space Marine rules though.

My other reason for saying no is because of your reasoning.
"I do relish the idea of pissing off everyone around me with my space marines, but iv already had a post shut down with accusations of trolling for lashing back at the outraged masses, so i dont really want to re-visit that on the forum. "
You acknowledge that it's a touchy and taboo subject, yet you go out of your way to instigate people instead of accepting limitations of the setting? I just call that as being bad taste. Deliberately trying to rile people up? In fact, on this forum at least, it's a breach of rules.

I don't like the idea of female Space Marines, from a lore perspective. That doesn't mean I won't help you work around it. Abhuman women in power armour - they're not Space Marines, but could fit the same rules for them. But in the eyes of the Imperium, they're not Astartes.

TL;DR - Your call, but I think Gue'vesa will be easiest, and have the most fun/opportunity.

One thing I was playing around with was linking them to the thunder warriors in some way, the thunder warriors were said to have a few survivors, so if they hid out on some back world preserving the genetics over about 9000 years of breeding into the locals, you can have a entire world of people capable of keeping up with a space marine.
If I were to go the Fem space marine route id probably say they either
A) Mutated on there planet to take the process and some rogue apothecary discovered this and took advantage.
B) Say they were the vanity project of some Organisits Cultus. But the details are unimportant in this stage.

And yeah, Sorry I come off as adversarial or antagonistic on the subject earlier. Its as sore of a subject for me as it is for the people who get outraged at the concept. But thats a discussion for privet as I dont really like the idea of starting up another discussion on the forums about it.

I like the 'vain project of a rogue magos biologis' idea personally

I'm not certain Thunder Warriors would be capable of interbreeding with humans, being engineered on the genetic level. It is, however, stated that the process for creating them is no longer lost (the fluff on the surviving ones stated that new ones were being created).

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I like the 'vain project of a rogue magos biologis' idea personally

I'm not certain Thunder Warriors would be capable of interbreeding with humans, being engineered on the genetic level. It is, however, stated that the process for creating them is no longer lost (the fluff on the surviving ones stated that new ones were being created).

X3 I like you Ybbeadwraith your nice and helpful!

Haha thanks man you've got good ideas i like that too

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Haha thanks man you've got good ideas i like that too

XD Is it nit picky to correct my gender in that statement? I am a chick.
Not that its important.

Anyway. Thank you for the compliment! Its a point of pride for me.
My brothers army is a Army of "Good Orks" they have a single human missionary, a Psyker who convinced there leader to wage a waaaagh of justice against the necrons and tyranids and dark eldar. And his Ork commander is toka and urgosh, a big dim witted Ork with a little cute gretchin on his shoulder. Companions and such.
I thought it was a cute idea regardless! When asked about it fluff wise he said "When enough Orks believe something it becomes true, and so if enough Orks are convinced that they are good guys, than they are"
His army are called the Good Boyz.

( The cute Gretchin was neat, he shaved down its nose a bit, give it pudgy cheeks and bigger eyes, longer ears and a mop of hair, it looks vaguely feminine like a little sister type but overall its a fantastic job )

I'd go with the Geu'vesa Tau Unit, as it is the most straightforward and you don't need 5 different codexes for it.

Different take on female marines, and something you may not have considered: I have no problem with someone converting female space marines, regardless of fluffiness or lack-there-of. Pictures of a hello kitty marine army, and heavily converted anime armies, have floated around and they are awesome. If it's cool and well done, people will like it. They won't change their mind on fluff though.

That being said, I'd avoid the female space marines conversion/substitute entirely. You've stated multiple times your goal with them (or at least a major goal with them) is to piss people off. That will come across, and you will not get games in save with very like minded persons. Or the games you do get in will be against lists that are not fun for you to play against (if you read the forums you'll eventually see people posting occasionally about lists they take against people they have extreme distastes for, usually against the local TFG).

If it's for collecting go for it, but you'll likely waste a lot of time and money if you're hoping to play with it while also pissing off your opponents.

The key here is that your intent is going to shine through in your presentation and impact your gaming experience. If you can remove that motivation, you'd be 100% fine doing them and just saying "look, they're custom, I like them".

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Haha thanks man you've got good ideas i like that too

XD Is it nit picky to correct my gender in that statement? I am a chick.
Not that its important.

Anyway. Thank you for the compliment! Its a point of pride for me.
My brothers army is a Army of "Good Orks" they have a single human missionary, a Psyker who convinced there leader to wage a waaaagh of justice against the necrons and tyranids and dark eldar. And his Ork commander is toka and urgosh, a big dim witted Ork with a little cute gretchin on his shoulder. Companions and such.
I thought it was a cute idea regardless! When asked about it fluff wise he said "When enough Orks believe something it becomes true, and so if enough Orks are convinced that they are good guys, than they are"
His army are called the Good Boyz.

( The cute Gretchin was neat, he shaved down its nose a bit, give it pudgy cheeks and bigger eyes, longer ears and a mop of hair, it looks vaguely feminine like a little sister type but overall its a fantastic job )

Do you by chance have a picture of that? Would love to see that.

If you are heavy on the conversions, you should go for the Xeno mercs, because the amount of choices is endless.

 troa wrote:
I'd go with the Geu'vesa Tau Unit, as it is the most straightforward and you don't need 5 different codexes for it.

Different take on female marines, and something you may not have considered: I have no problem with someone converting female space marines, regardless of fluffiness or lack-there-of. Pictures of a hello kitty marine army, and heavily converted anime armies, have floated around and they are awesome. If it's cool and well done, people will like it. They won't change their mind on fluff though.

That being said, I'd avoid the female space marines conversion/substitute entirely. You've stated multiple times your goal with them (or at least a major goal with them) is to piss people off. That will come across, and you will not get games in save with very like minded persons. Or the games you do get in will be against lists that are not fun for you to play against (if you read the forums you'll eventually see people posting occasionally about lists they take against people they have extreme distastes for, usually against the local TFG).

If it's for collecting go for it, but you'll likely waste a lot of time and money if you're hoping to play with it while also pissing off your opponents.

The key here is that your intent is going to shine through in your presentation and impact your gaming experience. If you can remove that motivation, you'd be 100% fine doing them and just saying "look, they're custom, I like them".

My goal isnt to piss people off I just dont care if I do.
I genuinely do want a bad-ass team of warrior woman and think its a cool idea. I just also wouldnt mind seeing a grown man throw a tantrum in the middle of a crowded room if it came down to that.
I actually dont like playing games like this with strangers though. Iv got a very large group of friends and siblings who are all interested and so the situations in which I will be forced into playing with some stranger is unlikely. Even when I collected magic the gathering I hated going to events or gameshops and playing with smug jerks. ( Everyone knows the type )

I just have a brazen attitude when it comes to stuff like this and I tend to wear my contempt on my sleeve. So when dealing with hyper sensitive people I can get a bit snippy or antagonistic. And if somebody says they wont play against fem marines, thats there reputation not mine. I honestly wont be bothered by it one bit. Most my friends think its a cool idea though so when I inevitably do it I will have plenty of partners to pair up against.


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 Segersgia wrote:

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Haha thanks man you've got good ideas i like that too

XD Is it nit picky to correct my gender in that statement? I am a chick.
Not that its important.

Anyway. Thank you for the compliment! Its a point of pride for me.
My brothers army is a Army of "Good Orks" they have a single human missionary, a Psyker who convinced there leader to wage a waaaagh of justice against the necrons and tyranids and dark eldar. And his Ork commander is toka and urgosh, a big dim witted Ork with a little cute gretchin on his shoulder. Companions and such.
I thought it was a cute idea regardless! When asked about it fluff wise he said "When enough Orks believe something it becomes true, and so if enough Orks are convinced that they are good guys, than they are"
His army are called the Good Boyz.

( The cute Gretchin was neat, he shaved down its nose a bit, give it pudgy cheeks and bigger eyes, longer ears and a mop of hair, it looks vaguely feminine like a little sister type but overall its a fantastic job )

Do you by chance have a picture of that? Would love to see that.

If you are heavy on the conversions, you should go for the Xeno mercs, because the amount of choices is endless.

Unfortunately I do not. I only get to see him once and a while. But it is a work of art he is a natural artist and sort of why I wanted to get into this game. And the conversions he did made me really excited to tinker and do my own. Thats partly why I avoid metal-caste figurines like the sisters of battle. I cant really change them or customize them.
Id actually spend hours admiring his Warboss it was really adorable. ( Reminded me of the MKX characters Ferra Torr )

 DizzyStorey wrote:


I do relish the idea of pissing off everyone around me with my space marines

This

One other way to make the amazonian space marine more "fluff friendly" (and possibly manage to piss off even more people) is to make them intersex. Somewhere in some planet the majority of the population has evolved as intersex individuals. This may be due to whatever radiation, mutation, phenomena you'd like, or due to a small starting pool of intersex colonists/castaways (prior the Age of Strife they were fleeing persecution, part of an experiment etc etc etc).

BTW I also like the Gue'vesa idea. I think the mix between Tau and IG will make for great modding possibilities.

You say your main gripe with SoB is the metal models - why not use SM models, but use them as SoB in game? The height and bulk is negligible, allows more conversion, and risks less fanboy outrage. That way, you get a fluff friendly force, a competent army (it would actually be the most effective, barring Tau, and that's only if you went battlesuit heavy on Tau, which would make no sense if you wanted Gue'vesa) and plenty of conversion and model opportunities.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You say your main gripe with SoB is the metal models - why not use SM models, but use them as SoB in game? The height and bulk is negligible, allows more conversion, and risks less fanboy outrage. That way, you get a fluff friendly force, a competent army (it would actually be the most effective, barring Tau, and that's only if you went battlesuit heavy on Tau, which would make no sense if you wanted Gue'vesa) and plenty of conversion and model opportunities.

Really would love it if dudes stop telling me what to play and trying to push me to sisters of battle.
Thats not even up for debate on the lists, nor is it going to be.


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Wow.. The Tau Army idea is up to 12 now. ITs got about as many votes as all the others combined. Is it really that good of an idea?

Hah the things we assume

I like your brother's army the best thing about Orks has always been their ridiculousness sticking out like a sore thumb amidst the sea of serious grimdark

Personally I'm trying to think of modelling opportunities for your Amazonians. Depending on how 'boob-armour' you want them you could either use 3rd party (or perhaps Sisters of Silence) heads swapped onto standard Marine/Skitarii/IG units, or do fun stuff with AoS Witch Elves (although those models are expensive).

Personally, I really like the idea of subtly swapping female heads onto Skitarii stuff, especially creepier stuff like Kataphrons and Ruststalkers. Something about these twisted creepy clockwork soldiers all being women (if you look closely) appeals to me as a counter to the usual depiction of women in fantasy IPs. 40k is pretty messed up. I'm fairly certain that if Tech Priest A is far enough from human he'll happily transform vast swathes of his population into technobiological soldiers he's not going to have qualms over what reproductive organs his stock has...

That is just my usual preference from grimdarkness coming through though

GodDamUser wrote:


Guard/Tau works and is easy, you have the option of converting the Guard to be fully intergrated and use just tau rules, or do an allied army of Tau/Guard

I dunno... I mean I think its more telling about her personality if she just took to the Tau command naturally rather than through indoctrination. It shows that she was in need of a purpose and found one within the Tau and took to it with renewed vigor.
But both work! Humans live roughly twice as long as a Tau on average giving her plenty of time to gain respect, potentially 2 or 3 service terms.


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 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Hah the things we assume

I like your brother's army the best thing about Orks has always been their ridiculousness sticking out like a sore thumb amidst the sea of serious grimdark

Personally I'm trying to think of modelling opportunities for your Amazonians. Depending on how 'boob-armour' you want them you could either use 3rd party (or perhaps Sisters of Silence) heads swapped onto standard Marine/Skitarii/IG units, or do fun stuff with AoS Witch Elves (although those models are expensive).

Personally, I really like the idea of subtly swapping female heads onto Skitarii stuff, especially creepier stuff like Kataphrons and Ruststalkers. Something about these twisted creepy clockwork soldiers all being women (if you look closely) appeals to me as a counter to the usual depiction of women in fantasy IPs. 40k is pretty messed up. I'm fairly certain that if Tech Priest A is far enough from human he'll happily transform vast swathes of his population into technobiological soldiers he's not going to have qualms over what reproductive organs his stock has...

That is just my usual preference from grimdarkness coming through though

I dunno about boob armor, the space marine chest plates look like they have a lot of empty space XD
Should work just fine as is, otherwise there boobs would be housed a mile out from there bodies!

I like the grim dark world but I must admit I have an addiction to cute stuff. Another thing that brings me to the Tau and Ratlings... They is adorables.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
These are some kickass ideas

I think you've hit on an excellent idea with the 'Amazonian' thing. Just drop the whole 'Space Marine' moniker from it and it works perfectly. A vain Tech Priest that thought he'd make an entire world of technologically and biologically augmented female warriors. Use Space Marine rules, but they're actually just differently augmented

You could really go to town on creepy conversions too. Feminine models with various cybernetic enhancements as befits a Tech Priest

Leave it to Ynead to make a concept that was my second choice go to my first

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
These are some kickass ideas

I think you've hit on an excellent idea with the 'Amazonian' thing. Just drop the whole 'Space Marine' moniker from it and it works perfectly. A vain Tech Priest that thought he'd make an entire world of technologically and biologically augmented female warriors. Use Space Marine rules, but they're actually just differently augmented

You could really go to town on creepy conversions too. Feminine models with various cybernetic enhancements as befits a Tech Priest

Leave it to Ynead to make a concept that was my second choice go to my first

Haha I try my best

You might be able to proxy in fantasy dwarves as Demiurg. Regular dwarves with pulse rifles could count as regular Fire Warriors. Some of the new Kharadron Overlords might be able to count as various Tau battlesuits, but I'm not sure how big they'll be from the pictures.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
You might be able to proxy in fantasy dwarves as Demiurg. Regular dwarves with pulse rifles could count as regular Fire Warriors. Some of the new Kharadron Overlords might be able to count as various Tau battlesuits, but I'm not sure how big they'll be from the pictures.

Do they even have stats for Diemerg?

 DizzyStorey wrote:

Do they even have stats for Diemerg?

Nope

If they are not the remnants of squats, all there was a single spaceship for BFG

Well, if what truly entices you is the fluff perspectives, you should go with what you feel needs more votes on this poll. Or, since you're probably going to spend some time writing on it, whatever inspires you most. I wouldn't worry too much about "breaking cannon". It's a big galaxy. Similarly, from what you've said, it looks like rules shouldn't be a problem either.

FWIW, my preference goes to the mercenaries/Rogue Trader crew/etc.. So many possibilities! Otherwise, the Gue'vesa are the easiest to collect and play I think.

Go nuts. (:

I voted for the Xenos mercenaries force as I would love to see somebody have a crack at some of the rarer mercenary species such as the Galg and the Terrelian Dog Soldiers.

I have been thinking about how to make some Galg mercenaries myself, I think the Otherworld miniatures 'lesser boglings' would be a great place to start for frogmen but I havn't decided how I'm going to 'Sci-Fi' them up yet haha!

Out of those, I'd go for a penal squad. It's been done before, but it bears doing again. I'm presuming these are squads, and not armies you're gonna build. I have no idea if you're gonna use them in games, but if not, the xenos mercenaries may be more fun to do.

 DizzyStorey wrote:


I do relish the idea of pissing off everyone around me with my space marines, but iv already had a post shut down with accusations of trolling for lashing back at the outraged masses, so i dont really want to re-visit that on the forum.

And this is why you shouldn't do the female space marines. I don't think you get why "fanboys" get annoyed. People don't get annoyed because they're female space marines, they get annoyed because they're totally off kilter with regards to the fluff. You might as well make Eldar Space Marines, Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar, or Chaos-worshipping Space Marines who are accepted by the Imperium at large because they're somehow NobleBright. It breaks with the fluff, hard.

However, who am I to judge. I'd suggest make male Sisters of Battle first though.

Kroem wrote:
I voted for the Xenos mercenaries force as I would love to see somebody have a crack at some of the rarer mercenary species such as the Galg and the Terrelian Dog Soldiers.

I have been thinking about how to make some Galg mercenaries myself, I think the Otherworld miniatures 'lesser boglings' would be a great place to start for frogmen but I havn't decided how I'm going to 'Sci-Fi' them up yet haha!

Ask and you shall receive!





Ad Mech-style bionic implants are the perfect way to '40k things up'

 ChazSexington wrote:
Out of those, I'd go for a penal squad. It's been done before, but it bears doing again. I'm presuming these are squads, and not armies you're gonna build. I have no idea if you're gonna use them in games, but if not, the xenos mercenaries may be more fun to do.

 DizzyStorey wrote:


I do relish the idea of pissing off everyone around me with my space marines, but iv already had a post shut down with accusations of trolling for lashing back at the outraged masses, so i dont really want to re-visit that on the forum.

And this is why you shouldn't do the female space marines. I don't think you get why "fanboys" get annoyed. People don't get annoyed because they're female space marines, they get annoyed because they're totally off kilter with regards to the fluff. You might as well make Eldar Space Marines, Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar, or Chaos-worshipping Space Marines who are accepted by the Imperium at large because they're somehow NobleBright. It breaks with the fluff, hard.

However, who am I to judge. I'd suggest make male Sisters of Battle first though.

I don't agree with the whole 'make male sisters first' part, but everything else I agree with a lot.

If female space marines exist there's nothing wrong with male sisters.

I still don't see too big an issue with you doing femarines tho

 ChazSexington wrote:
However, who am I to judge. I'd suggest make male Sisters of Battle first though.

Unless you think that redacting the whole Age of Apostasy would be an improvement to 40k lore, I highly suggest that you don't make male SoB. If you do go that route you might as well play Space Marines.

Oops.. Double Posted.

I figured the sisters of battle had priests assisting them anyway, I dont see the problem with having men hanging around and serving. IF somebody made a "Brothers of battle" Group than go for it I say XD Like i said before. Its a big galaxy with billions of planets and trillions of people. I am sure on some world. at some point there has been splinter groups or exceptions to every rule.

And with fem space marines, its not like theres a mountain of fluff discouraging it, it just says that chicks die when they try to do it cause its not meant to work with the XX chromosome, so its not like its the entire basis of the space marines or anything.
And some books and games have even released there own little takes on the subject. So its obviously not unseeable that one day GW might alter the fluff. People get so worked up and angry at the concept though.. Like they really really really like the part in the book that says the Gene-seed is incompatible with girls. Like this specific fluff is why they wake up int he mornings XD
Its not why people get mad, its the raw unquenchable passion they have for it. Thats when it gets ridiculous. Its rage over something silly and ultimately flimsy and unimportant. Plus i will never not do something cause it might upset some people. I really really really am disinterested in what random strangers think about me and if they approve of my clothing/hair/hobbies and most of all which privet parts my space marines have... its just not in my nature to care that much.

( I can however get very adversarial and push peoples buttons, Its a bad habbit I have and I get a kick out of annoying people at times. A flaw I know but its my personality and I am trying to be amicable and friendly for the most part! )

Plus they did a slight update to the fluff around the time the video game with female space marines was released.
I am not sure ware this statement came from but i assumed it was GW that said "Not impossible just super duper ultra so unlikely it will never happen" as sort of a middle ground "You can do what you want" kinda statement.

This one made me chuckle.
But yeah they have released statements about it in the passed. so its not like its a hard thing that cant be tangled with or budged or even questioned. its all possible.

Spoilers for size

Dizzy, where are those quotes from?

I don't think I've ever seen GW say anything about femarines aside from them not existing for "psuedoscience reasons", not have I see an female Space Marine in any 40k video game.

I think a big thing is that you say that the fluff about Space Marines being male only is not important - why is it any less important than anything else? Why is that a redundant piece of fluff? Is Slaanesh's entire existence redundant? Is all the stuff about the God Emperor being Throne-bound all disposable? How about the Decree Passive?
Why is that bit of fluff irrelevant and not worth treating with the same ideal as the rest of 40k fluff?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dizzy, where are those quotes from?

I don't think I've ever seen GW say anything about femarines aside from them not existing for "psuedoscience reasons", not have I see an female Space Marine in any 40k video game.

I think a big thing is that you say that the fluff about Space Marines being male only is not important - why is it any less important than anything else? Why is that a redundant piece of fluff? Is Slaanesh's entire existence redundant? Is all the stuff about the God Emperor being Throne-bound all disposable? How about the Decree Passive?
Why is that bit of fluff irrelevant and not worth treating with the same ideal as the rest of 40k fluff?

Cause that good sir is major fluff not small time minor fluff that nobody but only the most extreme care about. Its like saying "Kroot have blue eyes instead of black" sure somebody might freak out but that person is probably a lunatic.

For example. D&D says drow are evil. But there was a book about a good drow. They didnt alter things that were super important to making D&Ds world and story what it is.
There are degrees of severity at play here and only the most obbsessive people would care.
My brother plays a "Good" Ork team.. its fun, its cool and it feths with the fluff a bit. But nobody cares cause of the rule of cool. This is cooler so its acceptable.
Female space marines are kick ass and cool idea. So in my books, it gets a pass.
Having an all or nothing attitude is silly, its like saying "If they make weed legal than next murder will be legal! Cause if drugs arent immoral than there is no morality!" Stop, breath. and think about why this is different from that.

Humans are natorious for picking and choosing what they like and dislike from something. They take the things they love and they ignore the stuff thats gak.
And it doesnt get much shittier than the frankly rediculous and near embaressing, pointless fluff that prevents something as cool as fem space marines./
The importants of something in the lore is based on how much it affects something. What does a 1 in a trillion chance of fem space marine effect? 1 or two of the faceless little buggers in power armors smuggling boobs instead of sassages.. thats it. What does slannesh affect? A whole gak tun of lore. Thats why little tweaks like this are unimportant, could be changed tomorrow and literally nobody should care except for the most insane individuals. ( especally when its not there army and effects them 0% Caring what i do with my models is hella creepy and obsessive )

So I say do what you want cause at the end of the day, they are plastic toys. Little pieces of resin and glue. So make your male sisters of battle. Make your fem marines. Make your good orks and have a blast cause none of it really matters.



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Anyway! My lashing back at people and bickering aside!

Looks like the Tau idea is way in the lead for likes. My two favourites are in last place though XD
I do really like the idea of a Tau/human contingency... out of all of them which would be the cheapest to build? Like price wise. I did my wish list for my space marines and it was like 200 bucks. ( Which isnt too much once I get out of debt It shouldnt be a issue. )

 DizzyCrash wrote:
I figured the sisters of battle had priests assisting them anyway, I dont see the problem with having men hanging around and serving. IF somebody made a "Brothers of battle" Group than go for it I say XD Like i said before. Its a big galaxy with billions of planets and trillions of people. I am sure on some world. at some point there has been splinter groups or exceptions to every rule.

Nono, I'm talking about actual male Sisters of Battle! Male Adepta Sororitas, as in they're members of the order and everything! They'll be really friendly with Tau and Eldar too, because they don't hate xenos as well, plus being very community-oriented and cooperative!

 DizzyCrash wrote:

And with fem space marines, its not like theres a mountain of fluff discouraging it, it just says that chicks die when they try to do it cause its not meant to work with the XX chromosome, so its not like its the entire basis of the space marines or anything.
And some books and games have even released there own little takes on the subject. So its obviously not unseeable that one day GW might alter the fluff. People get so worked up and angry at the concept though.. Like they really really really like the part in the book that says the Gene-seed is incompatible with girls. Like this specific fluff is why they wake up int he mornings XD
Its not why people get mad, its the raw unquenchable passion they have for it. Thats when it gets ridiculous. Its rage over something silly and ultimately flimsy and unimportant. Plus i will never not do something cause it might upset some people. I really really really am disinterested in what random strangers think about me and if they approve of my clothing/hair/hobbies and most of all which privet parts my space marines have... its just not in my nature to care that much.

( I can however get very adversarial and push peoples buttons, Its a bad habbit I have and I get a kick out of annoying people at times. A flaw I know but its my personality and I am trying to be amicable and friendly for the most part! )

Plus they did a slight update to the fluff around the time the video game with female space marines was released.
I am not sure ware this statement came from but i assumed it was GW that said "Not impossible just super duper ultra so unlikely it will never happen" as sort of a middle ground "You can do what you want" kinda statement.

Re-read your first sentence. There's, in universe, 10, 000 years of fluff going against it. And I'm not telling you to care about what people might think of your plastic soldiers, but if pissing other players off is a motivator, you do care.

Also, I doubt that statement is from GW. GW don't do statements.

 DizzyStorey wrote:


Cause that good sir is major fluff not small time minor fluff that nobody but only the most extreme care about. Its like saying "Kroot have blue eyes instead of black" sure somebody might freak out but that person is probably a lunatic.

For example. D&D says drow are evil. But there was a book about a good drow. They didnt alter things that were super important to making D&Ds world and story what it is.
There are degrees of severity at play here and only the most obbsessive people would care.
My brother plays a "Good" Ork team.. its fun, its cool and it feths with the fluff a bit. But nobody cares cause of the rule of cool. This is cooler so its acceptable.
Female space marines are kick ass and cool idea. So in my books, it gets a pass.
Having an all or nothing attitude is silly, its like saying "If they make weed legal than next murder will be legal! Cause if drugs arent immoral than there is no morality!" Stop, breath. and think about why this is different from that.

Humans are natorious for picking and choosing what they like and dislike from something. They take the things they love and they ignore the stuff thats gak.
And it doesnt get much shittier than the frankly rediculous and near embaressing, pointless fluff that prevents something as cool as fem space marines./
The importants of something in the lore is based on how much it affects something. What does a 1 in a trillion chance of fem space marine effect? 1 or two of the faceless little buggers in power armors smuggling boobs instead of sassages.. thats it. What does slannesh affect? A whole gak tun of lore. Thats why little tweaks like this are unimportant, could be changed tomorrow and literally nobody should care except for the most insane individuals. ( especally when its not there army and effects them 0% Caring what i do with my models is hella creepy and obsessive )

So I say do what you want cause at the end of the day, they are plastic toys. Little pieces of resin and glue. So make your male sisters of battle. Make your fem marines. Make your good orks and have a blast cause none of it really matters.

Changing eye colour isn't a major change. I mean, I got irked when John French suddenly decided to change the lense colour of Alpha Legion from red to green out of nowhere. Changing the sex of Space Marines is a major break when it's such an established part of the lore.

Drow aren't genetically evil. An equivalent with drow would be saying drow now come in pink, green, and orange as well, plus rainbow coloured. Or there's a bunch of CG Devils etc.

I don't think I'm conveying well enough why female Space Marines is frowned upon. Deviation from established fluff cheapens the IP for the players, because they lose their sense of investment. Newcrons annoyed a lot of Necron players, and retconning Abbadon into being this big, scary threat has had laughable results - he's still the Armless Wonder. When Ward wrote that all SMs look up to Guilliman as their "spiritual liege," that was also met with ridicule. Similar with the previous 13th Black Crusade, where Chaos won, but then didn't, cheapened the players' investment. What was the point of it all if the outcome was given? So Cadia fell again, big deal. All of these things were changes to the fluff. However, having new things happen isn't met with ridicule (depending on whether it fits the GrimDark setting). Waking up Guilliman, from a fluff perspective, was fine. He was always in stasis and most decidedly not dead. Thus making female post-humans based on Space Marine gene-seed is fine, but don't call them Space Marines. Not because of any construed sexist motivation, but because it doesn't fit the fluff.

And I don't know where you get this all or nothing thing from. We're just saying it's not fluff-friendly to make the equivalent of Tzeentch-worshipping Daemonettes.

 DizzyStorey wrote:

Anyway! My lashing back at people and bickering aside!

Looks like the Tau idea is way in the lead for likes. My two favourites are in last place though XD
I do really like the idea of a Tau/human contingency... out of all of them which would be the cheapest to build? Like price wise. I did my wish list for my space marines and it was like 200 bucks. ( Which isnt too much once I get out of debt It shouldnt be a issue. )

 DizzyStorey wrote:

Geu'vesa Tau Unit:
Left behind by the imperial guard they were captured by the Tau and learned of the greater good, armed with a new purpose and knowlage there commander rose to the occasion and integrated into Tau society so thoroughly that she now leads Tau soldiers into battle and holds official rank and trust within the fire caste.
I would rely heavily on imperial guard troops but mix it with Tau soldiers and invest in a female commander unit. This is lore friendly as the Tau do not acknowledge race or origins only your dedication to the greater good and your service to the Tau empire.

Out of curiosity, why specifically a female commander unit?

I'm gonna nitpick a little - While humans are accepted in the Tau Empire, what do you think caste means? The Tau definitely discriminate based on origin - you'll find no Fire Caste Tau moving to the Water Caste, never mind Kroot, Vespid, or humans. Humans are accepted into the Fire Caste as human helpers, and I'd presume civilian humans are accepted into the Earth Caste. I presume you've looked up Gue'vesa?

Well, if you want to have female space Marines with no boob armor why don't you simply take SM with female heads and play them with SoB rules?
Even after reading loads of 40K fluff I still don't get the in-universe reasoning behind no female space marines, so I'd support an army of them. If you don't want to piss people that much, put Fabius Bile in the army and say he made some new mutants up, after all he's the one who cloned primarchs before, coming up with female space marines can't be that hard for him then.

DizzyStorey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dizzy, where are those quotes from?

I don't think I've ever seen GW say anything about femarines aside from them not existing for "psuedoscience reasons", not have I see an female Space Marine in any 40k video game.

I think a big thing is that you say that the fluff about Space Marines being male only is not important - why is it any less important than anything else? Why is that a redundant piece of fluff? Is Slaanesh's entire existence redundant? Is all the stuff about the God Emperor being Throne-bound all disposable? How about the Decree Passive?
Why is that bit of fluff irrelevant and not worth treating with the same ideal as the rest of 40k fluff?

Cause that good sir is major fluff not small time minor fluff that nobody but only the most extreme care about. Its like saying "Kroot have blue eyes instead of black" sure somebody might freak out but that person is probably a lunatic.

But what defines fluff as major or minor? Fluff is fluff. What categorically makes Slaanesh more valuable than the genetic makeup of Space Marines?

There is nothing in the fluff that says that a piece of fluff is any less important, there's no hard fluff and soft fluff.

For example. D&D says drow are evil. But there was a book about a good drow. They didnt alter things that were super important to making D&Ds world and story what it is.
There are degrees of severity at play here and only the most obbsessive people would care.

Drow are not genetically evil. FeMarines are genetically impossible. This example doesn't work.

What dictates severity? Your opinion, which is subjective? There's no definitive guide, therefore all canon, unless retconned, is valid. In the case of this, where Space Marine have consistently been male-only, this is a non-negiotiable of the setting. That doesn't mean female supersoliders in power armour don't exist, but it means they're not Space Marines.

My brother plays a "Good" Ork team.. its fun, its cool and it feths with the fluff a bit. But nobody cares cause of the rule of cool. This is cooler so its acceptable.

And that's subjective. Coolness is not objective. I might think it's uncool, and therefore not acceptable.

However, more on this - Orks are not even EVIL. Orks, by default are Chaotic, and are hardwired genetically to be predisposed to Waaagh!ing. That doesn't make them evil - it makes them no more evil than a bacteria or virus.
It's completely plausible to have these "Good" Orks - could we have some more information on this?

Female space marines are kick ass and cool idea. So in my books, it gets a pass.

Subjective.

Having an all or nothing attitude is silly, its like saying "If they make weed legal than next murder will be legal! Cause if drugs arent immoral than there is no morality!" Stop, breath. and think about why this is different from that.

Except we're talking about the same thing here - fluff. Not two completely unrelated crimes.

There's nothing to indicate that some fluff is more valid than other fluff at face value. Absolutely nothing. In fact, with Space Marines being consistently male for such a long time, that element of their fluff is more valid than the entire existence of Scions (as Scions, not Storm Troopers), Newcrons, and, to the best of my knowledge, the entire Tau Empire.
If you want to handwave FeMarines for being weak fluff, just remember that they've been like that for longer than many factions have even existed.

Humans are natorious for picking and choosing what they like and dislike from something. They take the things they love and they ignore the stuff thats gak.
And it doesnt get much shittier than the frankly rediculous and near embaressing, pointless fluff that prevents something as cool as fem space marines./

Again, subjective. Just because you think it's cool doesn't mean it's right. Just because you dislike it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And human nature is not an excuse to break established rules of a setting. If we go by that logic, I can eradicate whole laws:
"It's human nature to pick and choose what I want to do - I want to go an murder someone, and you can't stop me, because human nature!"

The importants of something in the lore is based on how much it affects something. What does a 1 in a trillion chance of fem space marine effect? 1 or two of the faceless little buggers in power armors smuggling boobs instead of sassages.. thats it. What does slannesh affect? A whole gak tun of lore.

Adding FeMarines would require the retconning of every book featuring Space Marines, because otherwise, women wouldn't be represented where they're meant to be. As I have discussed with you, I support female representation, but in the areas they are said to be present. That's not in the Space Marines. So no, FeMarines is not a small issue. It's a fluff issue, and they're all equal.

Thats why little tweaks like this are unimportant, could be changed tomorrow and literally nobody should care except for the most insane individuals. ( especally when its not there army and effects them 0% Caring what i do with my models is hella creepy and obsessive )

So because I care about the established lore of a game, I'm creepy and obsessive?

So if I played a game of D&D with you, you wouldn't chastise me because my Drow is rainbow coloured, innately vulnerable to magic, terrible eyesight, tougher but slower than a Dwarf, incapable of stealth, with a thick bushy ginger beard, a pacifist merchant, loved by everyone, and lawful good.

I mean, if you complained about that, that's creepy and obsessive, right?

So I say do what you want cause at the end of the day, they are plastic toys. Little pieces of resin and glue. So make your male sisters of battle. Make your fem marines. Make your good orks and have a blast cause none of it really matters.

To you.
Unfortunately, other people may have to play against your models, and then it DOES matter to them. They are allowed an opinion, and may refuse to play. You can't force them to play and accept your view, just like I can't with you. I'm just trying to explain that the setting and established rules of it oppose your idea.

-------------------------------------------

Sgt. Cortez wrote:Well, if you want to have female space Marines with no boob armor why don't you simply take SM with female heads and play them with SoB rules?

I did suggest the idea in another thread, and got this response.

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why not use SM models with female heads, and use them as Count-As SoB? Hell, just call them SoB in an improved armour variant?

Eh, Mostly cause buying the signature haircutes are hard, they wont have all the emblems and I dont want to be restricted to the black and red paint job, i like the freedom that comes with space marine paint jobs and custom chapters. And if i dont paint the armor black and red, whats really left to signify them as sisters of battle.
Most importantly though... aggravating people is not really a barrier for me. There are plenty of viable work arounds that make for genuinely intrigue and fun story telling potential, the rogue apothecary or thunder warrior genetics are all decent fluff ( Plus I am enamoured with the amazonian themes )

And at the end of the day Its what i am most comfortable and happy with.

When I outlined that not all Sisters are black and red armoured, can have their own custom fluff (like any other faction), and asked if this made any difference, I got this response:

DizzyStorey wrote:No it has not swayed me cause I do not need to explain to you why I am disinterested in the sisters of battle and have absolutely no interest in doing what you tell me to just to appease a thousand crying man-children.

The level of opposition for the idea of female Space Marines is unreal. Whilst I'm personally not the biggest fan of the idea (though I completely understand why people want to do it) it is really not such a big deal. GW themselves have mutilated the fluff way worse in last couple of months, not to mention all atrocities committed by the Black Library. Here at least there is a good reason for it, meaning the gender equality.

Besides, as long as it is represented as a some sort of strange exception, it doesn't even really violate the fluff, at least not badly.

Or how about female Custodes? It certainly hasn't been stated anywhere that the Custodes can't be female?


As for Tau, they certainly were depicted more as 'good guys' in their earlier incarnations, and got some more darker tones over the time. If one likes the older depiction of more benign Tau, they're perfectly free to stick to it. Besides, there could even be some variation within the Tau culture itself, some Ethereals might honestly believe in cooperation with the non-tau species, where other Ethereals might be more ruthless and exploitative.

Though I believe the castes are for Tau only. This doesn't necessarily mean that the alien allies are seen as lesser, Tau just have caste-like subspecies whereas the other species don't. I'd imagine Tau would see alien species as extra 'castes' in addition of their own castes.

The Tau society is very structured and orderly, Tau believe everyone and everything has it's own place in the society. That way it may feel somewhat oppressive regardless of how benign it may be overall. Tau do not much appreciate individuality, and thus if you do not conform to their societal norms, they probably don't have much patience for you. Tau are collectivist, and thus the good of the society as a whole always outweighs the good of an individual.

(I once started to build a small band of Tau mercenaries that had decided that feth the system and do their own thing instead. Never finished them though.)

Wow, people are really losing their minds over femarines. It's pretty well known the GW policy on what is and isn't canon is "everything is canon, but nothing is true" so that players can come up with their own stories and armies. All fluff is told by an unreliable narrator so femarines are a possibility. There's an entire planet covered in wolves that used to be humans. That's more believable than breeding women into super soldiers? Hell, even today, it's plausible to be able to clone a woman from a man, so you could say some brilliant/mad apothecary was able to unlock how to turn women into marines.

As for the "just play SoB rules", SoB don't have the same stats and army options as SM. They're not S4 T4 and can't take the same units. I can't believe somebody is saying "I want to play SM with a few tweaks with SM rules" and people are saying "No! Play SoB! Play Tau!" You know that's a good way to push people away from the hobby?

 Crimson wrote:
The level of opposition for the idea of female Space Marines is unreal. Whilst I'm personally not the biggest fan of the idea (though I completely understand why people want to do it) it is really not such a big deal. GW themselves have mutilated the fluff way worse in last couple of months, not to mention all atrocities committed by the Black Library. Here at least there is a good reason for it, meaning the gender equality.

I'll say exactly the same thing I said to Dizzy:

Just because I oppose FeMarines does not mean I oppose female and generally gender equality in 40k - as long as if fits the fluff. Our cultures and beliefs of now should not dictate the beliefs of 40k.
However, I don't believe the fluff needs any kind of change to achieve gender equality. What I believe DOES need changing is representation.

Let's divide 40k into respective factions and races. For the sake of this, therefore, Grey Knights, Space Marines, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc etc, all count as one race, because they are essentially all Adeptus Astartes. Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlequins are all one race for the sake of this.

Out of every faction in the game, there are two that are monogender. Two.
One is all male - Space Marines.
One is all female - Sisters of Battle.
Every other faction is either agender (ie Daemons, Orks), or polygender (ie Guardsmen, Eldar, Tau).
This is according to fluff.

The representation though? Females are HORRIFICALLY unrepresented in 40k - certainly not in the factions they should be. I completely support the increased emphasis on female warriors of the races that do field them, and more exposure of the SoB (plastics, better sculpts, new codex), and less emphasis on Space Marines (so rolling codexes together, less posterboyism). That would achieve equality, as we'd seem more females where they are meant to be, and the fluff remains unchanged. There would be just as many "all male" armies as "all female" and they'd both be given similar exposure.

The fluff isn't an issue. It's representation.

Besides, as long as it is represented as a some sort of strange exception, it doesn't even really violate the fluff, at least not badly.

Well, except where it says that Astartes genes don't work in women.

The only exception to this is heretical means, such as Fabius, and that would have to be handwaved as "the Warp did it", which, in my opinion, is bad writing.

Or how about female Custodes? It certainly hasn't been stated anywhere that the Custodes can't be female?

This is very true. I know the Custodes are genetically modified, but their enhancements may be different to Astartes ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flanker wrote:
Wow, people are really losing their minds over femarines. It's pretty well known the GW policy on what is and isn't canon is "everything is canon, but nothing is true" so that players can come up with their own stories and armies.

That belief was not official, and came from one GW writer as an unofficial statement which has not been endorsed. The fluff is malleable, but there are aspects which are fixed, the existence of Space Marines, for example.

All fluff is told by an unreliable narrator so femarines are a possibility. There's an entire planet covered in wolves that used to be humans. That's more believable than breeding women into super soldiers?

That's the fluff. If the fluff says female genes are incompatible, they are. We've seen nothing to doubt that, and it's been consistently stated.

If you want to use the unreliable narrator argument, then the entire universe was destroyed by the Squats, and the entire background is the tale of one man's fever dream as he is crushed under the iron boots of Squat hordes.
There, now the entire universe is irrelevant because there are no Space Marines at all.

Better?

Hell, even today, it's plausible to be able to clone a woman from a man, so you could say some brilliant/mad apothecary was able to unlock how to turn women into marines.

The God-Emperor, one of the most advanced scientists of humanity, couldn't make the genes interplay. There's no way any loyal Imperial would be able to. The only possible person we know who could do it is the most skilled Apothecary in the galaxy, Fabius Bile, a Chaos Space Marine. If these female warriors were made by him, they'd be Chaos Space Marines, not Imperial-approved Adeptus Astartes.

As for the "just play SoB rules", SoB don't have the same stats and army options as SM. They're not S4 T4 and can't take the same units. I can't believe somebody is saying "I want to play SM with a few tweaks with SM rules" and people are saying "No! Play SoB! Play Tau!" You know that's a good way to push people away from the hobby?

OP hasn't made any suggestions based on gameplay. There's no indication of units, nor of strength. They seem to be interested in fluff - and the fluffiest way to get females in power armour is, drumroll please, Sisters of Battle. Even being amazonian, Catachans are arguably that kind of build, physically impressive and strong, live in jungles etc etc - yet are only S3 T3.

OP is after amazonian women in power armour. The most logical fit for that is Sisters of Battle, from a minor order based on a jungle death world, raising them like Catachans.

 Crimson wrote:
The level of opposition for the idea of female Space Marines is unreal. Whilst I'm personally not the biggest fan of the idea (though I completely understand why people want to do it) it is really not such a big deal. GW themselves have mutilated the fluff way worse in last couple of months, not to mention all atrocities committed by the Black Library. Here at least there is a good reason for it, meaning the gender equality.

This.

Honestly, I genuinely believe that the opposition to femmarines is above and beyond its actual importance in the fluff. Now, don't get me wrong, I get why there's an explanation for it in the fluff (for dubious reasons), but it's honestly defended with the sort of ire that is downright suspicious.

I get that it's stated in the fluff. I also get that GW gives us licence to break the fluff for 'your dudes' if you want. Some people do it more than others. Honestly, who gives a damn whether someone out there wants marines with different private parts?

It is needlessly controversial, and the ire with which it's enforced belies a particularly unsavoury sexist undercurrent.

Its disingenuous Ynneadwraith to say it is defended with a suspicious amount of ire. By simply saying that you putting a label on everyone who cares/defends a point about the setting, a label that is suggestive if not explicitly said.

The same thing can be said about the flipside as a result, but no one does that because they can see why it is a slippery slope. If you want a fair discussion of the point my advice to you is not to bring it up.

If they allow Femarines then all my dudes are Primarchs that get along with everyone and every race and have pet Canifexes and have unlocked the secret to Necron technology and can friendship kick the Chaos gods into whatever non-existence Horus is living in.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
If they allow Femarines then all my dudes are Primarchs that get along with everyone and every race and have pet Canifexes and have unlocked the secret to Necron technology and can friendship kick the Chaos gods into whatever non-existence Horus is living in.

You can do whatever you want. That's part of the draw to Warhammer. The original reason for 2 missing primarchs was for people to come up with their own chapters. You see threads all the time like "Theory: What if a missing primarch was a blank/landed on a xenos planet/started their own empire?" If a player wants his SM to only walk on their hands in tie-dye armor and worship the Rising Sun Emperor and his Teletubbies Primarchs, they can model and play their army that way. It's their money and their time invested in the models, they can do whatever they want.

I mean if you really wanted to make it you wouldn't come onto a forum of bunch of people you are never gonna meet and ask their opinion. You'd ask the people you play with.

Or just make it and let the results speak for themselves, either way this lore discussion is getting dumb in regards to femarines. Lore-wise they've never happened.

 Flanker wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
If they allow Femarines then all my dudes are Primarchs that get along with everyone and every race and have pet Canifexes and have unlocked the secret to Necron technology and can friendship kick the Chaos gods into whatever non-existence Horus is living in.

You can do whatever you want. That's part of the draw to Warhammer. The original reason for 2 missing primarchs was for people to come up with their own chapters. You see threads all the time like "Theory: What if a missing primarch was a blank/landed on a xenos planet/started their own empire?" If a player wants his SM to only walk on their hands in tie-dye armor and worship the Rising Sun Emperor and his Teletubbies Primarchs, they can model and play their army that way. It's their money and their time invested in the models, they can do whatever they want.

Right, but within this context it's not being set up as head-canon but rather a possible or potentially justifiable part of fluff that could exist in current 40K. Generally speaking, from what we've been exposed to and what is heavily implied, female marines don't exist. It's kinda weird people want to push it so hard that they HAVE to be female versions of space marines, rather than be their own thing (not necessarily Sisters of Battle mind you but like other posters have mentioned, other more creative reasons as to why they have SM equivalent stats and weapons, etc.).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

DizzyStorey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dizzy, where are those quotes from?

I don't think I've ever seen GW say anything about femarines aside from them not existing for "psuedoscience reasons", not have I see an female Space Marine in any 40k video game.

I think a big thing is that you say that the fluff about Space Marines being male only is not important - why is it any less important than anything else? Why is that a redundant piece of fluff? Is Slaanesh's entire existence redundant? Is all the stuff about the God Emperor being Throne-bound all disposable? How about the Decree Passive?
Why is that bit of fluff irrelevant and not worth treating with the same ideal as the rest of 40k fluff?

Cause that good sir is major fluff not small time minor fluff that nobody but only the most extreme care about. Its like saying "Kroot have blue eyes instead of black" sure somebody might freak out but that person is probably a lunatic.

But what defines fluff as major or minor? Fluff is fluff. What categorically makes Slaanesh more valuable than the genetic makeup of Space Marines?

There is nothing in the fluff that says that a piece of fluff is any less important, there's no hard fluff and soft fluff.

For example. D&D says drow are evil. But there was a book about a good drow. They didnt alter things that were super important to making D&Ds world and story what it is.
There are degrees of severity at play here and only the most obbsessive people would care.

Drow are not genetically evil. FeMarines are genetically impossible. This example doesn't work.

What dictates severity? Your opinion, which is subjective? There's no definitive guide, therefore all canon, unless retconned, is valid. In the case of this, where Space Marine have consistently been male-only, this is a non-negiotiable of the setting. That doesn't mean female supersoliders in power armour don't exist, but it means they're not Space Marines.

My brother plays a "Good" Ork team.. its fun, its cool and it feths with the fluff a bit. But nobody cares cause of the rule of cool. This is cooler so its acceptable.

And that's subjective. Coolness is not objective. I might think it's uncool, and therefore not acceptable.

However, more on this - Orks are not even EVIL. Orks, by default are Chaotic, and are hardwired genetically to be predisposed to Waaagh!ing. That doesn't make them evil - it makes them no more evil than a bacteria or virus.
It's completely plausible to have these "Good" Orks - could we have some more information on this?

Female space marines are kick ass and cool idea. So in my books, it gets a pass.

Subjective.

Having an all or nothing attitude is silly, its like saying "If they make weed legal than next murder will be legal! Cause if drugs arent immoral than there is no morality!" Stop, breath. and think about why this is different from that.

Except we're talking about the same thing here - fluff. Not two completely unrelated crimes.

There's nothing to indicate that some fluff is more valid than other fluff at face value. Absolutely nothing. In fact, with Space Marines being consistently male for such a long time, that element of their fluff is more valid than the entire existence of Scions (as Scions, not Storm Troopers), Newcrons, and, to the best of my knowledge, the entire Tau Empire.
If you want to handwave FeMarines for being weak fluff, just remember that they've been like that for longer than many factions have even existed.

Humans are natorious for picking and choosing what they like and dislike from something. They take the things they love and they ignore the stuff thats gak.
And it doesnt get much shittier than the frankly rediculous and near embaressing, pointless fluff that prevents something as cool as fem space marines./

Again, subjective. Just because you think it's cool doesn't mean it's right. Just because you dislike it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And human nature is not an excuse to break established rules of a setting. If we go by that logic, I can eradicate whole laws:
"It's human nature to pick and choose what I want to do - I want to go an murder someone, and you can't stop me, because human nature!"

The importants of something in the lore is based on how much it affects something. What does a 1 in a trillion chance of fem space marine effect? 1 or two of the faceless little buggers in power armors smuggling boobs instead of sassages.. thats it. What does slannesh affect? A whole gak tun of lore.

Adding FeMarines would require the retconning of every book featuring Space Marines, because otherwise, women wouldn't be represented where they're meant to be. As I have discussed with you, I support female representation, but in the areas they are said to be present. That's not in the Space Marines. So no, FeMarines is not a small issue. It's a fluff issue, and they're all equal.

Thats why little tweaks like this are unimportant, could be changed tomorrow and literally nobody should care except for the most insane individuals. ( especally when its not there army and effects them 0% Caring what i do with my models is hella creepy and obsessive )

So because I care about the established lore of a game, I'm creepy and obsessive?

So if I played a game of D&D with you, you wouldn't chastise me because my Drow is rainbow coloured, innately vulnerable to magic, terrible eyesight, tougher but slower than a Dwarf, incapable of stealth, with a thick bushy ginger beard, a pacifist merchant, loved by everyone, and lawful good.

I mean, if you complained about that, that's creepy and obsessive, right?

So I say do what you want cause at the end of the day, they are plastic toys. Little pieces of resin and glue. So make your male sisters of battle. Make your fem marines. Make your good orks and have a blast cause none of it really matters.

To you.
Unfortunately, other people may have to play against your models, and then it DOES matter to them. They are allowed an opinion, and may refuse to play. You can't force them to play and accept your view, just like I can't with you. I'm just trying to explain that the setting and established rules of it oppose your idea.

-------------------------------------------

Sgt. Cortez wrote:Well, if you want to have female space Marines with no boob armor why don't you simply take SM with female heads and play them with SoB rules?

I did suggest the idea in another thread, and got this response.

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why not use SM models with female heads, and use them as Count-As SoB? Hell, just call them SoB in an improved armour variant?

Eh, Mostly cause buying the signature haircutes are hard, they wont have all the emblems and I dont want to be restricted to the black and red paint job, i like the freedom that comes with space marine paint jobs and custom chapters. And if i dont paint the armor black and red, whats really left to signify them as sisters of battle.
Most importantly though... aggravating people is not really a barrier for me. There are plenty of viable work arounds that make for genuinely intrigue and fun story telling potential, the rogue apothecary or thunder warrior genetics are all decent fluff ( Plus I am enamoured with the amazonian themes )

And at the end of the day Its what i am most comfortable and happy with.

When I outlined that not all Sisters are black and red armoured, can have their own custom fluff (like any other faction), and asked if this made any difference, I got this response:

DizzyStorey wrote:No it has not swayed me cause I do not need to explain to you why I am disinterested in the sisters of battle and have absolutely no interest in doing what you tell me to just to appease a thousand crying man-children.

This obviously means way more to you than it ever should and I am starting to suspect you may be on the autism spectrum with the level of fanaticism on display... It simply does not matter... like at all... This is getting embarrassing and weird that you care so much.
I sorta just wanted to talk about some fun army ideas and this is like, the weirdest gak. I could respond and argue back and you can than do the same thing countering each-others points for days, but that wouldn't lead to anything other than a creepy fit over plastic figurines. If I ever had somebody tell me my army was unacceptable to play against in this little game cause of the gender of my soldiers, I would probably die of second hand embarrassment and avoid them like the plague. Its a table top game not your bible.

So this fun little thread idea has been ruined by fanatical lunatics who care way way way way too much about there space marines privet parts. I am gunna do what I like and thank you for making this conversation about you and your vendetta...

Please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks!

Manchu wrote:
Please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks!

Sorry... I lost my cool again. I am a little too hot headed.

Flanker wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
If they allow Femarines then all my dudes are Primarchs that get along with everyone and every race and have pet Canifexes and have unlocked the secret to Necron technology and can friendship kick the Chaos gods into whatever non-existence Horus is living in.

You can do whatever you want. That's part of the draw to Warhammer. The original reason for 2 missing primarchs was for people to come up with their own chapters.

But that's not more than headcanon. Like, if you want to do it, that's fine. But it's not official lore. And don't pretend it's anything more than fanon.

You see threads all the time like "Theory: What if a missing primarch was a blank/landed on a xenos planet/started their own empire?" If a player wants his SM to only walk on their hands in tie-dye armor and worship the Rising Sun Emperor and his Teletubbies Primarchs, they can model and play their army that way. It's their money and their time invested in the models, they can do whatever they want.

Except this is different - this isn't an omission of information, as in "we see no female Space Marines". It's a case of we are told that "they can't exist". Not being seen and being impossible are different things.

The 2nd Primarch could have been anything, but we do know that they are missing. If, for the missing Primarch we are told that the second Primarch was not a blank, then he isn't a blank. Enough said.

DizzyStorey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

DizzyStorey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dizzy, where are those quotes from?

I don't think I've ever seen GW say anything about femarines aside from them not existing for "psuedoscience reasons", not have I see an female Space Marine in any 40k video game.

I think a big thing is that you say that the fluff about Space Marines being male only is not important - why is it any less important than anything else? Why is that a redundant piece of fluff? Is Slaanesh's entire existence redundant? Is all the stuff about the God Emperor being Throne-bound all disposable? How about the Decree Passive?
Why is that bit of fluff irrelevant and not worth treating with the same ideal as the rest of 40k fluff?

Cause that good sir is major fluff not small time minor fluff that nobody but only the most extreme care about. Its like saying "Kroot have blue eyes instead of black" sure somebody might freak out but that person is probably a lunatic.

But what defines fluff as major or minor? Fluff is fluff. What categorically makes Slaanesh more valuable than the genetic makeup of Space Marines?

There is nothing in the fluff that says that a piece of fluff is any less important, there's no hard fluff and soft fluff.

For example. D&D says drow are evil. But there was a book about a good drow. They didnt alter things that were super important to making D&Ds world and story what it is.
There are degrees of severity at play here and only the most obbsessive people would care.

Drow are not genetically evil. FeMarines are genetically impossible. This example doesn't work.

What dictates severity? Your opinion, which is subjective? There's no definitive guide, therefore all canon, unless retconned, is valid. In the case of this, where Space Marine have consistently been male-only, this is a non-negiotiable of the setting. That doesn't mean female supersoliders in power armour don't exist, but it means they're not Space Marines.

My brother plays a "Good" Ork team.. its fun, its cool and it feths with the fluff a bit. But nobody cares cause of the rule of cool. This is cooler so its acceptable.

And that's subjective. Coolness is not objective. I might think it's uncool, and therefore not acceptable.

However, more on this - Orks are not even EVIL. Orks, by default are Chaotic, and are hardwired genetically to be predisposed to Waaagh!ing. That doesn't make them evil - it makes them no more evil than a bacteria or virus.
It's completely plausible to have these "Good" Orks - could we have some more information on this?

Female space marines are kick ass and cool idea. So in my books, it gets a pass.

Subjective.

Having an all or nothing attitude is silly, its like saying "If they make weed legal than next murder will be legal! Cause if drugs arent immoral than there is no morality!" Stop, breath. and think about why this is different from that.

Except we're talking about the same thing here - fluff. Not two completely unrelated crimes.

There's nothing to indicate that some fluff is more valid than other fluff at face value. Absolutely nothing. In fact, with Space Marines being consistently male for such a long time, that element of their fluff is more valid than the entire existence of Scions (as Scions, not Storm Troopers), Newcrons, and, to the best of my knowledge, the entire Tau Empire.
If you want to handwave FeMarines for being weak fluff, just remember that they've been like that for longer than many factions have even existed.

Humans are natorious for picking and choosing what they like and dislike from something. They take the things they love and they ignore the stuff thats gak.
And it doesnt get much shittier than the frankly rediculous and near embaressing, pointless fluff that prevents something as cool as fem space marines./

Again, subjective. Just because you think it's cool doesn't mean it's right. Just because you dislike it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And human nature is not an excuse to break established rules of a setting. If we go by that logic, I can eradicate whole laws:
"It's human nature to pick and choose what I want to do - I want to go an murder someone, and you can't stop me, because human nature!"

The importants of something in the lore is based on how much it affects something. What does a 1 in a trillion chance of fem space marine effect? 1 or two of the faceless little buggers in power armors smuggling boobs instead of sassages.. thats it. What does slannesh affect? A whole gak tun of lore.

Adding FeMarines would require the retconning of every book featuring Space Marines, because otherwise, women wouldn't be represented where they're meant to be. As I have discussed with you, I support female representation, but in the areas they are said to be present. That's not in the Space Marines. So no, FeMarines is not a small issue. It's a fluff issue, and they're all equal.

Thats why little tweaks like this are unimportant, could be changed tomorrow and literally nobody should care except for the most insane individuals. ( especally when its not there army and effects them 0% Caring what i do with my models is hella creepy and obsessive )

So because I care about the established lore of a game, I'm creepy and obsessive?

So if I played a game of D&D with you, you wouldn't chastise me because my Drow is rainbow coloured, innately vulnerable to magic, terrible eyesight, tougher but slower than a Dwarf, incapable of stealth, with a thick bushy ginger beard, a pacifist merchant, loved by everyone, and lawful good.

I mean, if you complained about that, that's creepy and obsessive, right?

So I say do what you want cause at the end of the day, they are plastic toys. Little pieces of resin and glue. So make your male sisters of battle. Make your fem marines. Make your good orks and have a blast cause none of it really matters.

To you.
Unfortunately, other people may have to play against your models, and then it DOES matter to them. They are allowed an opinion, and may refuse to play. You can't force them to play and accept your view, just like I can't with you. I'm just trying to explain that the setting and established rules of it oppose your idea.

-------------------------------------------

Sgt. Cortez wrote:Well, if you want to have female space Marines with no boob armor why don't you simply take SM with female heads and play them with SoB rules?

I did suggest the idea in another thread, and got this response.

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why not use SM models with female heads, and use them as Count-As SoB? Hell, just call them SoB in an improved armour variant?

Eh, Mostly cause buying the signature haircutes are hard, they wont have all the emblems and I dont want to be restricted to the black and red paint job, i like the freedom that comes with space marine paint jobs and custom chapters. And if i dont paint the armor black and red, whats really left to signify them as sisters of battle.
Most importantly though... aggravating people is not really a barrier for me. There are plenty of viable work arounds that make for genuinely intrigue and fun story telling potential, the rogue apothecary or thunder warrior genetics are all decent fluff ( Plus I am enamoured with the amazonian themes )

And at the end of the day Its what i am most comfortable and happy with.

When I outlined that not all Sisters are black and red armoured, can have their own custom fluff (like any other faction), and asked if this made any difference, I got this response:

DizzyStorey wrote:No it has not swayed me cause I do not need to explain to you why I am disinterested in the sisters of battle and have absolutely no interest in doing what you tell me to just to appease a thousand crying man-children.

This obviously means way more to you than it ever should and I am starting to suspect you may be on the autism spectrum with the level of fanaticism on display... It simply does not matter... like at all... This is getting embarrassing and weird that you care so much.

So I'm autistic because I like the lore of Warhammer?
Interesting observation.

I am not autistic, despite what you seem to believe, but yes, I do like Warhammer lore. Considering you are posting in the 40k BACKGROUND section, and outright asked for "Lore Discussion", I think it's perfectly acceptable to comment on 40k lore.
If it doesn't matter, then why have you posted here?

I sorta just wanted to talk about some fun army ideas and this is like, the weirdest gak.

And I'm talking back. I'm sorry that your idea is against canon, but it is. Is it out of place to criticise your ideas?

I could respond and argue back and you can than do the same thing countering each-others points for days, but that wouldn't lead to anything other than a creepy fit over plastic figurines. If I ever had somebody tell me my army was unacceptable to play against in this little game cause of the gender of my soldiers, I would probably die of second hand embarrassment and avoid them like the plague. Its a table top game not your bible.

So I'll say again, if you don't want to hear alternative opinions, why are on asking for lore discussion on a public forum? Especially if you refuse to hear out alternative points.

So this fun little thread idea has been ruined by fanatical lunatics who care way way way way too much about there space marines privet parts. I am gunna do what I like and thank you for making this conversation about you and your vendetta...

See above.
Is it out of place to inform you of the actual lore in a thread about lore discussion? Why ask about it if you won't listen to other points?

 Quickjager wrote:
Its disingenuous Ynneadwraith to say it is defended with a suspicious amount of ire. By simply saying that you putting a label on everyone who cares/defends a point about the setting, a label that is suggestive if not explicitly said.

The same thing can be said about the flipside as a result, but no one does that because they can see why it is a slippery slope. If you want a fair discussion of the point my advice to you is not to bring it up.

The thing is that i genuinely don't believe its disingenuous. 40k encourages you to play around with the fluff and bend it however you please. For instance, i know that exodites are portrayed in the fluff as basically dino-riding amish cowards. For mine, i've completely reinvented what they are to be basically creepy eldar technobarbarians. That's a massive break from the official fluff, but has got nothing but positive comments.

I honestly believe that the idea of female space marines is defended so rigorously, above and beyond other ideas that break fluff in just as major of a way, is indicative of underlying sexism. The fact that this one small statement has taken on an almost gospel-like quality from among the thousands and thousands of other statements seems to me to be motivated by sexism.

Now, I want to clarify. I'm not intending to brand anyone who points out that it breaks fluff as an evil mysoninistic dickbag. It does break fluff. Fair enough. Ask if the poster is aware that it breaks fluff, and if they are but want to do it anyway then fine. 40k specifically allows people to twist fluff to make 'their dudes'.

To be perfectly honest, the original statement is fairly dubious itself. Personally, i think it would have been much better to say that you can have female space marines, but in actuality they look damn near identical to male space marines. Pump anyone with that level of testosterone and biological augmentations and you'd end up with a Space Marine regardless of what you started from. It's not as if theres any sexuality left after their indoctrination anyway.

 DizzyStorey wrote:
Army Ideas!

This is genuine, iv got three ideas that really speak to me and I am not sure which to go with.

Imperial Guard Suicide Squad:
Basically criminals and mutants of the slums and hiveworlds, the undesirables, Stouts, Servitors, Ratlings, Ogryns, Wulfen, brutal criminals and rogues. People that are the most expendable, sent to the most hellish far reaches of the galaxy and who grow a tight bond together as companions and the undesirables of the empire.
This speaks to me as a very fun concept and something I can see myself getting really attached too.

Amazonian Space Marines:
Exactly as the title suggests, created on there homeworld of Themiscyra by a rogue Organiscist Cultus for vain legacy purposes and deployed around the galaxy serving his goals and
staying one step ahead of the inquisition for the high crime of suspected heretical gene-seed tampering.

Geu'vesa Tau Unit:
Left behind by the imperial guard they were captured by the Tau and learned of the greater good, armed with a new purpose and knowlage there commander rose to the occasion and integrated into Tau society so thoroughly that she now leads Tau soldiers into battle and holds official rank and trust within the fire caste.
I would rely heavily on imperial guard troops but mix it with Tau soldiers and invest in a female commander unit. This is lore friendly as the Tau do not acknowledge race or origins only your dedication to the greater good and your service to the Tau empire.

The Mercenary Core:
A unbound army made up of only alien models without armies of there own, a Sslyth commander, Stingwings, Many Assorted Kroot Units, Human Mutants like Ogryn & Ratlings (by far my favourite unit by design is the Ratlings )
All with the common goal of making a name for themselves as fierce deadly mercenaries owning no allegiances or loyalty to anyone other than the highest bidder.
I really like this idea as its purely unique and makes use of some of the most intriguing units in the game, However! from what I hear rulewise its a bit of a clusterf**k.

This is part a discussion on the viability of the army concepts and part a discussion on the lore and story potential which is what truly excites me about these ideas.

Technically, that's 4 ideas

Jokes aside, they're all solid ideas; the Imperial Guard Suicide Squad and the Gue'vesa unit are the most viable concepts army-wise, as you can pretty much run them as Imperial Guard/Tau respectively (also, have you heard of Penal Legions? They're pretty much the definition of 'suicide squad' ). They're also the easiest to model, as you can easily mix Firewarriors, Guardsmen, maybe even Genestealer Cultists together to create a unique-looking force.

The Mercenary force sounds incredibly cool, but will be a nightmare to run as an army. If you're really interested in taking this idea further, I suggest you have a look at INQ28; that system definitely allows for more exotic combinations whilst still being very much WH40k

As for the Amazonian Space Marines... it's a bit of a touchy subject in 40k, as you've probably gathered from all the above Personally, I wouldn't agree with Female Astartes from a lore-perspective, but Female Space Marines are totally plausible in this universe. On the tabletop, I couldn't care less, as long as they are converted nicely; I mean, if we can accept Beastmen Space Marines run as Space Wolves (check out mayajid's thread here on Dakka, it's quite awesome), why would converted female Space Marines be a problem?

For the exodite comparison, you are forgeting that your idea was also very original. It was essentially subverting the idea of Eldar sophistication which is pretty much the commonplace point of Eldar. They are advanced, they call humans Mon'Keigh (monkey).

So you flipped that around and it presented a new dynamic that was interesting. What would a civilized Eldar do when facing these? No one knows. How do they deal with Slaneesh? No one knows. There is an amazing amount of room for fleshing out a *alien* culture that is itself alien to their base concept. It was a fun exercise in spit-balling new concepts in 40k. There probably were some Eldar fans who would go, "Slaneesh would murder them!" and at face value they're right. I dunno how you handled that though. I wouldn't mind reading more about them, I saw the thread and exalted but never got around to reading it figured I would do it after it was fleshed out more.

Female space marines on the other hand... you present the best reason why it is kind of dumb to be concerned one way or another. Forgive the lack of quotes.

*Pump anyone with that level of testosterone and biological augmentations and you'd end up with a Space Marine regardless of what you started from. It's not as if theres any sexuality left after their indoctrination anyway.*

They offer nothing new to the setting. It isn't creative. They change nothing unless you want to bring points that highlight their femininity, but if we do then we end up with.... you guessed it Sisters of Battle. Which aren't that original of a concept, nor that interesting UNTIL you get into the lore of how they came to be. So if female marines ever become a thing they're gonna have to have some good fluff. Yea you can say they existed from the beginning, but thats BORING and annoying to address retcon wise. So either way... the marine models that already exist would be what they look like. Probably. Unless you would have an alternate design, that *would* be interesting to talk about.

So at this point there isn't anything left to say, either you know it breaks fluff and don't care and go about having fun OR you start writing Games Workshop and say they should change, as far as I know they've stayed veeery far away from the matter for smart and sensible reasons, of which they have historically had few; so I will be taking a leaf from their book if you will. But as it is I'm going to leave this thread because it has obviously become something is shouldn't.

@Quickjacker very good points, and thanks for the compliment on my exodites!

I definitely agree with you that a retcon of 'oh yeah, there were female marines all along' would be just as unpopular as most other retcons, and would just piss people off without really solving the problem.

Perhaps an example might help explain what I think is weird.

DizzyStorey has described two different army concepts here that break the fluff of their respective factions, but provide neat in-universe explanations of why they do. The first is her brother's army of 'good orks' which were convinced that they were 'good guys' and because of the Ork gestalt field, they believed it enough that it became true. The second is her idea that a bonkers and fantastically vain Magos Biologis has created a world of genetically engineered Amazonian warrior-women (which sounds like exactly the sort of thing a megalomaniac magos biologis might do).

Both are pretty original and interesting (I've never heard of the latter as an in-universe explanation of femmarines before), and you can do some pretty kickass stuff messing with people's heads by making these overtly feminine genetically engineered warriors (because if you're bonkers enough to make a world full of women, you're probably going to make them overtly feminine as well) have all sorts of creepy bionic modifications.

However, only one of those ideas has brought about a disproportionate amount of backlash from the community. She's not stating 'oh yeah, btw, half of the Marines ever made are women now'. She's stating that 'her dudes' are dudettes instead, and is being told fairly strongly that she can't do that because it breaks fluff.

That's what I think stands out enough to suggest it might be motivated by underlying sexism.

P.S. I'm rather proud of my idea of how exodites deal with Slaanesh actually! I thought 'how have other barbarian cultures on earth dealt with 'undesirables'': with witch-hunts of course! So, basically if anyone starts to get too...excessive...in exodite populations the rest of them organise a lynch mod and go string them up from a tree as an example. Nicely brutal and barbaric

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
DizzyStorey has described two different army concepts here that break the fluff of their respective factions, but provide neat in-universe explanations of why they do. The first is her brother's army of 'good orks' which were convinced that they were 'good guys' and because of the Ork gestalt field, they believed it enough that it became true. The second is her idea that a bonkers and fantastically vain Magos Biologis has created a world of genetically engineered Amazonian warrior-women (which sounds like exactly the sort of thing a megalomaniac magos biologis might do).

Both are pretty original and interesting (I've never heard of the latter as an in-universe explanation of femmarines before), and you can do some pretty kickass stuff messing with people's heads by making these overtly feminine genetically engineered warriors (because if you're bonkers enough to make a world full of women, you're probably going to make them overtly feminine as well) have all sorts of creepy bionic modifications.

However, only one of those ideas has brought about a disproportionate amount of backlash from the community. She's not stating 'oh yeah, btw, half of the Marines ever made are women now'. She's stating that 'her dudes' are dudettes instead, and is being told fairly strongly that she can't do that because it breaks fluff.

That's what I think stands out enough to suggest it might be motivated by underlying sexism.

The Good Orks example is absolutely fine. Good and Bad are subjective, and Ork's aren't genetically coded to be Bad. They're as bad as a bacteria is: they're driven to fighting and being fast and having loud dakka, but that doesn't make them bad. As such, the Good Orks don't break fluff.

A mad Magos creating genetically engineered Amazons in power armour is fine, so long as these Warrior Women are not regarded as Adeptus Astartes Space Marines. They are not Imperially endorsed, as such. In that regard, that might be better suited as CSM, but it's a grey area.
However, one problem with this - this Magos edges on "genius" levels of intellect to be able to do this, as such a feat can only be accomplished by Fabius Bile, who is on a par with the Emperor for gene-splicing. As such, this Magos does verge on the slightly Mary Sue of the spectrum. As such, this could be a concern if we have a Fabius-knock-off.

There's nothing wrong with female genetically enhanced warriors wearing power armour, as I've said. But there is an issue with female Space Marines, which is what I'm addressing.
Does being genetically enhanced add anything to OP's idea? Is being genetically modified a non-negotiable?
Being Amazonic is represented well even on a Guardsman statline (see Catachans), and as such, Sisters of Battle would suffice and be a simpler solution.
If OP is after gameplay Space Marines, then that's very different, and doesn't pertain to Background

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
think stands out enough to suggest it might be motivated by underlying sexism.

I'm just anal about lore, not a woman-hater. Chill dude. I'd be getting just as heated over Male Sororitas.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
think stands out enough to suggest it might be motivated by underlying sexism.

I'm just anal about lore, not a woman-hater. Chill dude. I'd be getting just as heated over Male Sororitas.

I think Ynnaedwraith was referring to the subject as a whole, not specifically you

Also, when you say "Male Sororitas", all I hear is "Male Sisters"

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Good Orks example is absolutely fine. Good and Bad are subjective, and Ork's aren't genetically coded to be Bad. They're as bad as a bacteria is: they're driven to fighting and being fast and having loud dakka, but that doesn't make them bad. As such, the Good Orks don't break fluff.

A mad Magos creating genetically engineered Amazons in power armour is fine, so long as these Warrior Women are not regarded as Adeptus Astartes Space Marines. They are not Imperially endorsed, as such. In that regard, that might be better suited as CSM, but it's a grey area.
However, one problem with this - this Magos edges on "genius" levels of intellect to be able to do this, as such a feat can only be accomplished by Fabius Bile, who is on a par with the Emperor for gene-splicing. As such, this Magos does verge on the slightly Mary Sue of the spectrum. As such, this could be a concern if we have a Fabius-knock-off.

There's nothing wrong with female genetically enhanced warriors wearing power armour, as I've said. But there is an issue with female Space Marines, which is what I'm addressing.
Does being genetically enhanced add anything to OP's idea? Is being genetically modified a non-negotiable?
Being Amazonic is represented well even on a Guardsman statline (see Catachans), and as such, Sisters of Battle would suffice and be a simpler solution.
If OP is after gameplay Space Marines, then that's very different, and doesn't pertain to Background

'Good Orks' does break fluff every bit as much as female Astartes. If Orks in 40k are categorically neither good nor evil, then a bunch of Orks scooting around the galaxy saving damsels in distress and coming to people's rescue breaks the fluff (because they are categorically good). Yet no-one has a problem with it.

There's absolutely no reason that the OP couldn't have her dudes as bonafide female Adeptus Astartes Space Marines, or at least functionally identical in biological modification. Said Magos could well have worked his magic back in the Dark Age of Technology, when presumably humanity's scientists knew a hell of a lot more about genetic engineering than either the Emperor or Fabulous Bill. Even if that's not the case, having your character verge on the bordeline of Mary Sue doesn't quite justify people telling someone that they categorically cannot do what they want with their dudes, or putting so much effort into providing obstacles for them to do what they want to do that it puts them off from doing it. It's just not in the spirit of the 40k universe.

If anything, having a Tech Magos that is so utterly brilliant and competent in his field that he can equal Fabius Bile's expertise with genetic enhancement, and then rather than use that for the betterment of the Imperium he goes and uses that genius to make a planet entirely full of attractive genetically enhanced female warriors for his own amusement strikes me as really rather fitting into the whole grimdark feel of 40k.

Does being genetically enhanced detract anything from anyone else's experience of the game? If the OP wants genetically engineered female Astartes, rather than SoB or female Guardsmen, why is it that she has to pick from the two latter options when she's got a perfectly good (and quite original) justification for why she can have female Astartes?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
think stands out enough to suggest it might be motivated by underlying sexism.

I'm just anal about lore, not a woman-hater. Chill dude. I'd be getting just as heated over Male Sororitas.

I know there's no genuine malice there dude

It's just that it's not really helpful to spend a disproportionate amount of effort telling someone that they can't have female Space Marines when we're more than happy to accept other breaks in the fluff so long as they're justified in a clever way. It is genuinely curious as to why this particular piece of fluff is so strongly enforced, and honestly the only answer I can come to as to why it is is underlying sexism. It's not even as if it's an integral part of the fluff either. Change that one thing so the OP can have her female Astartes and literally nothing else in the universe changes. It flat-out should not be a big deal.

I'd just like to see more people putting their intelligence to use finding clever ways to let the OP do what they want, rather than just throwing up a whole host of barriers and saying 'nah, can't do it'. That sort of negative attitude is offputting and drives people away from the hobby, which is just crap really.

I don't mind either lore bit, to be honest. The amazonian faux-astartes doesn't bother me much, if anything it bothers me less than some of GW's actual official lore (like NuMarines) so what the hell go for it is my opinion.

The "good orks" actually bugs me more than that. For Orks, it's all about fighting, getting the best fight, the best loot, going the fastest, being bigger and stronger than everyone else. Now, you can spin this to say the warboss thinks that the best fights are against tyrants and other strongmen and disdains fights against weaklings, even to the point of appearing to protect them. But good and evil are beyond Orks. They simply are, IMO. That said, if someone wanted to play their Orks as more heroic than most Orks would even try to be, I'm not gonna stop them.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Good Orks example is absolutely fine. Good and Bad are subjective, and Ork's aren't genetically coded to be Bad. They're as bad as a bacteria is: they're driven to fighting and being fast and having loud dakka, but that doesn't make them bad. As such, the Good Orks don't break fluff.

A mad Magos creating genetically engineered Amazons in power armour is fine, so long as these Warrior Women are not regarded as Adeptus Astartes Space Marines. They are not Imperially endorsed, as such. In that regard, that might be better suited as CSM, but it's a grey area.
However, one problem with this - this Magos edges on "genius" levels of intellect to be able to do this, as such a feat can only be accomplished by Fabius Bile, who is on a par with the Emperor for gene-splicing. As such, this Magos does verge on the slightly Mary Sue of the spectrum. As such, this could be a concern if we have a Fabius-knock-off.

There's nothing wrong with female genetically enhanced warriors wearing power armour, as I've said. But there is an issue with female Space Marines, which is what I'm addressing.
Does being genetically enhanced add anything to OP's idea? Is being genetically modified a non-negotiable?
Being Amazonic is represented well even on a Guardsman statline (see Catachans), and as such, Sisters of Battle would suffice and be a simpler solution.
If OP is after gameplay Space Marines, then that's very different, and doesn't pertain to Background

'Good Orks' does break fluff every bit as much as female Astartes. If Orks in 40k are categorically neither good nor evil, then a bunch of Orks scooting around the galaxy saving damsels in distress and coming to people's rescue breaks the fluff (because they are categorically good). Yet no-one has a problem with it.

It's completely logical to have Orks doing this - as long as there's fighting and krumping heads involved, it's all Orky. Orks are Chaotic X - they can do "good" things and "bad" things, and anything in between. If they have the delusion that they should rescue poor damsels in distress for their reward to go on and continue krumpin' heads, it's completely logical.

There's absolutely no reason that the OP couldn't have her dudes as bonafide female Adeptus Astartes Space Marines, or at least functionally identical in biological modification.

Functionally identical biological modification, as I think I mentioned, is fine. But they are not regarded as official Imperially sanctioned Space Marines, hence my whole point.
"There's nothing wrong with female genetically enhanced warriors wearing power armour. There is an issue with female Space Marines."

Said Magos could well have worked his magic back in the Dark Age of Technology, when presumably humanity's scientists knew a hell of a lot more about genetic engineering than either the Emperor or Fabulous Bill.

Wasn't the Emperor alive back in the DAOT? Wouldn't he also have this skill?

Even if that's not the case, having your character verge on the bordeline of Mary Sue doesn't quite justify people telling someone that they categorically cannot do what they want with their dudes, or putting so much effort into providing obstacles for them to do what they want to do that it puts them off from doing it. It's just not in the spirit of the 40k universe.

No, there is nothing categorically wrong with it. It's just something that requires nuance, or I end up with a character who could be as good a swordsman as Sigismund, as good a shot as Telion, as tenacious as Yarrick, as psychically gifted as Ahriman, etc etc - it's just needs a good handling.

If anything, having a Tech Magos that is so utterly brilliant and competent in his field that he can equal Fabius Bile's expertise with genetic enhancement, and then rather than use that for the betterment of the Imperium he goes and uses that genius to make a planet entirely full of attractive genetically enhanced female warriors for his own amusement strikes me as really rather fitting into the whole grimdark feel of 40k.

This can work. See above about nuance.

Does being genetically enhanced detract anything from anyone else's experience of the game? If the OP wants genetically engineered female Astartes, rather than SoB or female Guardsmen, why is it that she has to pick from the two latter options when she's got a perfectly good (and quite original) justification for why she can have female Astartes?

I'm purely asking OP if being genetically enhanced is essential to this idea - as I maintain, being an Astartes is a lore impossibility, but being genetically engineered is not. If being genetically enhanced was a desired goal, then that can be reached with these options supplied.
If not, then why are SoB not being discussed, and instead being blown off as the complaints of "a thousand crying man-children"?

It's just that it's not really helpful to spend a disproportionate amount of effort telling someone that they can't have female Space Marines when we're more than happy to accept other breaks in the fluff so long as they're justified in a clever way. It is genuinely curious as to why this particular piece of fluff is so strongly enforced, and honestly the only answer I can come to as to why it is is underlying sexism.

Or just that, like Tactical_Spam, I am rather anal about lore. Not sexist. I'd argue just as strongly about male Sisters as I would about this.

I'd just like to see more people putting their intelligence to use finding clever ways to let the OP do what they want, rather than just throwing up a whole host of barriers and saying 'nah, can't do it'. That sort of negative attitude is offputting and drives people away from the hobby, which is just crap really.

Again, I've been attempting to do this, just highlighting the specificities of it.

It's not impossible to have genetically engineered women in power armour. It is, on the other hand, to have female Space Marines, as determined by the Imperium's classification of Space Marine, due to the double X chromosome.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The thing is that i genuinely don't believe its disingenuous. 40k encourages you to play around with the fluff and bend it however you please. For instance, i know that exodites are portrayed in the fluff as basically dino-riding amish cowards. For mine, i've completely reinvented what they are to be basically creepy eldar technobarbarians. That's a massive break from the official fluff, but has got nothing but positive comments.

I honestly believe that the idea of female space marines is defended so rigorously, above and beyond other ideas that break fluff in just as major of a way, is indicative of underlying sexism. The fact that this one small statement has taken on an almost gospel-like quality from among the thousands and thousands of other statements seems to me to be motivated by sexism.

Now, I want to clarify. I'm not intending to brand anyone who points out that it breaks fluff as an evil mysoninistic dickbag. It does break fluff. Fair enough. Ask if the poster is aware that it breaks fluff, and if they are but want to do it anyway then fine. 40k specifically allows people to twist fluff to make 'their dudes'.

To be perfectly honest, the original statement is fairly dubious itself. Personally, i think it would have been much better to say that you can have female space marines, but in actuality they look damn near identical to male space marines. Pump anyone with that level of testosterone and biological augmentations and you'd end up with a Space Marine regardless of what you started from. It's not as if theres any sexuality left after their indoctrination anyway.

Being passionnate about this part of the fluff up to the point of refusing any exeption to the rule is indeed rather strange.

As an extra point, no one ever shat a brick when I decided to create the Bortherhood of Thor, the male Sisters of Battle. The response was actually rather positive and they thought it made sense even if the fluff states that Ecclesiarchy cannot maintain men under arms wich is the reason why Sisters are sisters in the first place. I simply found/created another loophole. I do think that it wnet well, because SoB are unpopular and largely unknown. Very few people could tell why Sisters were all women from a fluff point of view. Nobody discuss the monogender nature of the Sisterhood because to few people are interested in the lore of this army. Every aspect of the Space Marines are debated from their size, their age, the "real" power of their guns, the exact size of their Chapter, their tactics, their greatest heroes etc.

Women cannot be Space Marines can have its loopholes. These slightly, but tolerated abhuman women can because of "insert pseudoscience here". What about this slightly heretical Chapter found a way thanks to this xeno technology. As you can see, the general rule can remain, but be amended for exception.

Being passionnate about this part of the fluff up to the point of refusing any exeption to the rule is indeed rather strange.

epronovost wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The thing is that i genuinely don't believe its disingenuous. 40k encourages you to play around with the fluff and bend it however you please. For instance, i know that exodites are portrayed in the fluff as basically dino-riding amish cowards. For mine, i've completely reinvented what they are to be basically creepy eldar technobarbarians. That's a massive break from the official fluff, but has got nothing but positive comments.

I honestly believe that the idea of female space marines is defended so rigorously, above and beyond other ideas that break fluff in just as major of a way, is indicative of underlying sexism. The fact that this one small statement has taken on an almost gospel-like quality from among the thousands and thousands of other statements seems to me to be motivated by sexism.

Now, I want to clarify. I'm not intending to brand anyone who points out that it breaks fluff as an evil mysoninistic dickbag. It does break fluff. Fair enough. Ask if the poster is aware that it breaks fluff, and if they are but want to do it anyway then fine. 40k specifically allows people to twist fluff to make 'their dudes'.

To be perfectly honest, the original statement is fairly dubious itself. Personally, i think it would have been much better to say that you can have female space marines, but in actuality they look damn near identical to male space marines. Pump anyone with that level of testosterone and biological augmentations and you'd end up with a Space Marine regardless of what you started from. It's not as if theres any sexuality left after their indoctrination anyway.

Being passionnate about this part of the fluff up to the point of refusing any exeption to the rule is indeed rather strange.

As an extra point, no one ever shat a brick when I decided to create the Bortherhood of Thor, the male Sisters of Battle. The response was actually rather positive and they thought it made sense even if the fluff states that Ecclesiarchy cannot maintain men under arms wich is the reason why Sisters are sisters in the first place. I simply found/created another loophole. I do think that it wnet well, because SoB are unpopular and largely unknown. Very few people could tell why Sisters were all women from a fluff point of view. Nobody discuss the monogender nature of the Sisterhood because to few people are interested in the lore of this army. Every aspect of the Space Marines are debated from their size, their age, the "real" power of their guns, the exact size of their Chapter, their tactics, their greatest heroes etc.

Would you mind elaborating on what this loophole is?

I'm not saying there isn't a way to have loopholes, but to have bona fide female Space Marines is an impossibility. The loophole of which would be that they are Space Marines in all but name, and shouldn't be referred to as such.

Women cannot be Space Marines can have its loopholes.

I would amend that to "Women cannot be genetically engineered basasses in power amour can have it's loopholes."

Being passionnate about this part of the fluff up to the point of refusing any exeption to the rule is indeed rather strange.

Again, I'm not saying there is no exception. The exception being, it's possibly have have genetically engineered basasses in power amour, but they cannot be official Space Marines recognised as such by the Imperium.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Its disingenuous Ynneadwraith to say it is defended with a suspicious amount of ire. By simply saying that you putting a label on everyone who cares/defends a point about the setting, a label that is suggestive if not explicitly said.

The same thing can be said about the flipside as a result, but no one does that because they can see why it is a slippery slope. If you want a fair discussion of the point my advice to you is not to bring it up.

The thing is that i genuinely don't believe its disingenuous. 40k encourages you to play around with the fluff and bend it however you please. For instance, i know that exodites are portrayed in the fluff as basically dino-riding amish cowards. For mine, i've completely reinvented what they are to be basically creepy eldar technobarbarians. That's a massive break from the official fluff, but has got nothing but positive comments.

I honestly believe that the idea of female space marines is defended so rigorously, above and beyond other ideas that break fluff in just as major of a way, is indicative of underlying sexism. The fact that this one small statement has taken on an almost gospel-like quality from among the thousands and thousands of other statements seems to me to be motivated by sexism.

Now, I want to clarify. I'm not intending to brand anyone who points out that it breaks fluff as an evil mysoninistic dickbag. It does break fluff. Fair enough. Ask if the poster is aware that it breaks fluff, and if they are but want to do it anyway then fine. 40k specifically allows people to twist fluff to make 'their dudes'.

To be perfectly honest, the original statement is fairly dubious itself. Personally, i think it would have been much better to say that you can have female space marines, but in actuality they look damn near identical to male space marines. Pump anyone with that level of testosterone and biological augmentations and you'd end up with a Space Marine regardless of what you started from. It's not as if theres any sexuality left after their indoctrination anyway.

You always manage to say exactly what I am thinking so much better than I can.. I just get mad and lose my patience dealing with people.

@Sgt_Smudge

My loophole for the Brotherhood of Thor was that, while the Ecclesiarchy cannot maintain men under arms, priests are allowed to take weapons and join battle. Such is the case for missionnaries for example. Thus all members of the Brotherhood of Thor are vicars, priests, bishops and cardinals (depending on their ranks in the Brotherhood of course). They fullfil fake preaching positions to look good on paper and dedicate their time praying and training for war. They are equipped in the same fashion than Sisters and fullfil the same role within the Ecclesiarchy, but respond directly to the Grand Ecclesiarch (unlike the Sisters who respond ultimately to the Grand Abbess). The Brotherhood of Thor hold its origin to the first companions and bodyguards of Sebastian Thor (13 or 12 of them, one turned to Chaos, one was killed by the Brides of the Emperor). The grew in influence as the Ecclesiarchy became weary of the Sisterhood independance and popularity within the mass.

A possible loophole for the no women can be Space Marines can derive from the fact that there is such a thing as intersex people who make a rock hard definition of what a women is vs a men almost impossible to pinpoint with precision and by the fact that abhuman exists. The rule simply mention women, thus we have to assume they are talking about human women, we don't know if some abhuman can become Space Marines or not. An abhuman women population might very well carry a mutation that allows the geneseed to work on her as a side effect. In the same way, it's possible to think that a large number of intersex people who would be indentified to women in almost all circomstances are capable of receiving the geneseed. Receiving the geneseed is what makes a genetically enhanced human to take the name Space Marines. In all those cases, the women would be Space Marines.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It's completely logical to have Orks doing this - as long as there's fighting and krumping heads involved, it's all Orky. Orks are Chaotic X - they can do "good" things and "bad" things, and anything in between. If they have the delusion that they should rescue poor damsels in distress for their reward to go on and continue krumpin' heads, it's completely logical.

I don't know, both myself and Melissia above think that that's a more egregious break from the fluff (not lore, fluff). Orks are interested in fighting and that's it. Having them interested in being 'good' is un-Orky. Yet most people have less of an issue with that than whether or not Space Marines can have boobs.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Functionally identical biological modification, as I think I mentioned, is fine. But they are not regarded as official Imperially sanctioned Space Marines, hence my whole point.
"There's nothing wrong with female genetically enhanced warriors wearing power armour. There is an issue with female Space Marines."

But why?

I have yet to hear a single compelling reason why it's ok to make an exception for the Ork thing, but if the OP wants her female Space Marines she flat-out can't have them. She can have some pseudo-marines if she wants, but the official genuine stuff is off limits or people get their knickers in a twist.

Just so you don't think I'm some bleeding-hearts liberal who will let anything fly, I'm an Eldar person first and foremost. The idea of 'Chaos-worshipping Eldar' makes me twitch. However, I can think of half a dozen reasons how you could make that work if you really wanted to. And not some pseudo-version of what the person originally wanted. Genuine chaos-worshipping Eldar.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Wasn't the Emperor alive back in the DAOT? Wouldn't he also have this skill?

Could be that it's an added layer of complication he didn't think was worth it?

TBH, I'm not sold on that idea for other flaws. Space Marines weren't around during the DAoT, so how a Magos could make them then doesn't make sense. I prefer my other idea...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm purely asking OP if being genetically enhanced is essential to this idea - as I maintain, being an Astartes is a lore impossibility, but being genetically engineered is not. If being genetically enhanced was a desired goal, then that can be reached with these options supplied.
If not, then why are SoB not being discussed, and instead being blown off as the complaints of "a thousand crying man-children"?

The OP seems pretty switched on, knowing enough about the fluff (not lore) to be considering making a Gue'vesa converted army. I'm assuming that she knows about the SoB, and has decided she's not interested (for whatever reason, it doesn't really matter).

My main point is why having a female Astartes is a lore impossibility when damn near anything else isn't. That's what I think is odd.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or just that, like Tactical_Spam, I am rather anal about lore. Not sexist. I'd argue just as strongly about male Sisters as I would about this.

But you didn't argue about the 'good Orks' thing, and think that's fine despite it being a break in the fluff. I really hope you don't think I'm singling you out on this at all, I just think that the opinion of the community at large regarding this is very odd.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, I've been attempting to do this, just highlighting the specificities of it.

It's not impossible to have genetically engineered women in power armour. It is, on the other hand, to have female Space Marines, as determined by the Imperium's classification of Space Marine, due to the double X chromosome.

Sort of yeah, and again not singling you out. There's been much more unhelpful comments in this thread than yours.

There's honestly nothing in the fluff that states 'if someone is a women they're not a Space Marine'. There is something in the fluff that states that the technologies that the Imperium uses to make Space Marines doesn't work on women.

I really don't think it's a technical impossibility that one person in the entire history of the galaxy-spanning Imperium has worked out how to make it work.

epronovost wrote:

Being passionnate about this part of the fluff up to the point of refusing any exeption to the rule is indeed rather strange.

Women cannot be Space Marines can have its loopholes. These slightly, but tolerated abhuman women can because of "insert pseudoscience here". What about this slightly heretical Chapter found a way thanks to this xeno technology. As you can see, the general rule can remain, but be amended for exception.

Thankyou!

And yeah, another perfectly acceptable way of making Female Marines work and be genuine bonafide Marines rather than some knock-off version for the girls. For the record that's not what I think the SoB are, but if the OP does then honestly what's the problem?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I would amend that to "Women cannot be genetically engineered basasses in power amour can have it's loopholes."

But why?

Why this arbitrary restriction on this particular piece of fluff when nearly everything else is absolutely fine given a half-decent fluff explanation?

I have a few other ideas of how it could work too.. And I never said endorsed by the imperium, Infact iv said it was heretical and isolated multiple times. Kinda like this lunatic who made them wanted his own little privet chapter for his own purposes.

I was thinking they could be made using re-descovered thunder warrior genes, which didnt have the traditional restrictions.
Or they could be from a planet which has its population mutated to be adapted to the process, so you wouldn't even need a particularly brilliant scientist to make it work. Just say "Yep these girls have genes in them to survive" and somebody descovered them.. With mutations that make people into wolf monsters and grow eyestocks this sounds simple making them all harboring a Y chromosome or something. Some genetic wibbly wabbly nonesense.

epronovost wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge
A possible loophole for the no women can be Space Marines can derive from the fact that there is such a thing as intersex people who make a rock hard definition of what a women is vs a men almost impossible to pinpoint with precision and by the fact that abhuman exists.

With intersex, we can infer that the Y chromosome must be present at least. Thus, in this regard, if an intersex person were to have this Y chromosome, then they'd be permitted into the Astartes, provided they pass the trials necessary to be inducted.

With abhumans, yes, they won't be standard human, but the given rule seems to imply specifically male traits, which, if an abhuman had, they would have to be classed as male, no?

The rule simply mention women, thus we have to assume they are talking about human women, we don't know if some abhuman can become Space Marines or not.

The actual quote we are given is "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types". The rule mentions specifically male hormones and tissues.

An abhuman women population might very well carry a mutation that allows the geneseed to work on her as a side effect.

Such as a Y chromosome? If they have a Y chromosome, then by biological argument (which seems to be what 40k is basing their definitions on), the abhuman is not a woman - they are intersex or male.

In the same way, it's possible to think that a large number of intersex people who would be indentified to women in almost all circomstances are capable of receiving the geneseed. Receiving the geneseed is what makes a genetically enhanced human to take the name Space Marines. In all those cases, the women would be Space Marines.

Again, identification means nothing. So long as you have "male hormones and tissue types", which only males and intersex would have, you can be an Astartes.

Yes, a loophole exists in intersex having a Y chromosome, but unless one has that chromosome, they cannot be a recognised and official Astartes.

 DizzyStorey wrote:
I have a few other ideas of how it could work too.. And I never said endorsed by the imperium, Infact iv said it was heretical and isolated multiple times. Kinda like this lunatic who made them wanted his own little privet chapter for his own purposes.

I was thinking they could be made using re-descovered thunder warrior genes, which didnt have the traditional restrictions.
Or they could be from a planet which has its population mutated to be adapted to the process, so you wouldn't even need a particularly brilliant scientist to make it work. Just say "Yep these girls have genes in them to survive" and somebody descovered them.. With mutations that make people into wolf monsters and grow eyestocks this sounds simple making them all harboring a Y chromosome or something. Some genetic wibbly wabbly nonesense.

Exactly

In a universe chock full of 'wibbly wabbly pseudo-science nonsense' the fact that this is cold, hard, immutable fact is odd.

It's a throwaway comment so GW didn't have to shell out the expenditure for making the molds for female SM torsos decades ago when they were just getting started. It really is nothing important. If it changes, literally nothing else in the universe is affected. It doesn't break the fluff at all because it has no effect on anything else at all.

The Emperor's Children are actually loyalists: breaks the fluff because other people's EC armies are pretty damn chaotic.

Orks worship Khorne: breaks the fluff because Orks worship Gork and Mork, and if you say they worship Khorne then other people's armies where the Orks worhip Gork and Mork are effected.

Someone somewhere found a way of making Astartes modifications work with the Y chromosome, anbd nothing at all changes with other people's armies. It doesn't 'break the fluff'.

"Genetic wibbly-wobbly nonsense" is simply the best way to describe space marine genetic implants I've heard in a long time.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Such as a Y chromosome? If they have a Y chromosome, then by biological argument (which seems to be what 40k is basing their definitions on), the abhuman is not a woman - they are intersex or male.

Why does the mutation have to be a Y chromosome? Why can't it be something else entirely that functions as a Y chromosome for the purpose of Astartes modifications but is otherwise inactive?

This is a universe where people can mutate so that tentacles erupt from their armpits. The above really isn't anything above and beyond.

We go back to why this is immutable fact and other things aren't?

Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It's completely logical to have Orks doing this - as long as there's fighting and krumping heads involved, it's all Orky. Orks are Chaotic X - they can do "good" things and "bad" things, and anything in between. If they have the delusion that they should rescue poor damsels in distress for their reward to go on and continue krumpin' heads, it's completely logical.

I don't know, both myself and Melissia above think that that's a more egregious break from the fluff (not lore, fluff). Orks are interested in fighting and that's it. Having them interested in being 'good' is un-Orky. Yet most people have less of an issue with that than whether or not Space Marines can have boobs.

"Good" is subjective. They may do things seen as good completely by accident, and they can be "good" and still be interested in fighting - it's not mutually exclusive.
As for Space Marines having boobs, I think a point was raised that, after all the modification, even if femarines were a thing, they'd be functionally identical to males anyway.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Functionally identical biological modification, as I think I mentioned, is fine. But they are not regarded as official Imperially sanctioned Space Marines, hence my whole point.
"There's nothing wrong with female genetically enhanced warriors wearing power armour. There is an issue with female Space Marines."

But why?

I have yet to hear a single compelling reason why it's ok to make an exception for the Ork thing, but if the OP wants her female Space Marines she flat-out can't have them. She can have some pseudo-marines if she wants, but the official genuine stuff is off limits or people get their knickers in a twist.

Just so you don't think I'm some bleeding-hearts liberal who will let anything fly, I'm an Eldar person first and foremost. The idea of 'Chaos-worshipping Eldar' makes me twitch. However, I can think of half a dozen reasons how you could make that work if you really wanted to. And not some pseudo-version of what the person originally wanted. Genuine chaos-worshipping Eldar.

I made my reasons for the Ork situation. The reason I'm so against female Space Marines is because of the quote it originates from: "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm purely asking OP if being genetically enhanced is essential to this idea - as I maintain, being an Astartes is a lore impossibility, but being genetically engineered is not. If being genetically enhanced was a desired goal, then that can be reached with these options supplied.
If not, then why are SoB not being discussed, and instead being blown off as the complaints of "a thousand crying man-children"?

The OP seems pretty switched on, knowing enough about the fluff (not lore) to be considering making a Gue'vesa converted army. I'm assuming that she knows about the SoB, and has decided she's not interested (for whatever reason, it doesn't really matter).

I did try asking about that, but I explained about that.

My main point is why having a female Astartes is a lore impossibility when damn near anything else isn't. That's what I think is odd.

By the fact there's a statement outright saying it. "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types." It's pretty final.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or just that, like Tactical_Spam, I am rather anal about lore. Not sexist. I'd argue just as strongly about male Sisters as I would about this.

But you didn't argue about the 'good Orks' thing, and think that's fine despite it being a break in the fluff. I really hope you don't think I'm singling you out on this at all, I just think that the opinion of the community at large regarding this is very odd.

It's not a break in the fluff, as I think I explained. Good and bad are subjective, and the only thing that Orks are forced into being is seeking a good fight. Orks can be "good" and still crave their fights.
Having women Astartes is outright contradicting fluff.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, I've been attempting to do this, just highlighting the specificities of it.

It's not impossible to have genetically engineered women in power armour. It is, on the other hand, to have female Space Marines, as determined by the Imperium's classification of Space Marine, due to the double X chromosome.

Sort of yeah, and again not singling you out. There's been much more unhelpful comments in this thread than yours.

There's honestly nothing in the fluff that states 'if someone is a women they're not a Space Marine'. There is something in the fluff that states that the technologies that the Imperium uses to make Space Marines doesn't work on women.

The quote given is "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types."

I really don't think it's a technical impossibility that one person in the entire history of the galaxy-spanning Imperium has worked out how to make it work.

If there is someone, that someone is Fabius Bile, who was able to clone Primarchs. He is the most likely candidate for this.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I would amend that to "Women cannot be genetically engineered basasses in power amour can have it's loopholes."

But why?

Why this arbitrary restriction on this particular piece of fluff when nearly everything else is absolutely fine given a half-decent fluff explanation?

Because it outright states that women cannot be Space Marines. If the process was bastardised, however, then they would be genetically engineered badasses in power armour, but not actual Space Marines.
They would be Space Marines in all but name, but seeing as Space Marines are thus barred to females, it is an important distinction to make.

DizzyStorey wrote:I have a few other ideas of how it could work too.. And I never said endorsed by the imperium, Infact iv said it was heretical and isolated multiple times. Kinda like this lunatic who made them wanted his own little privet chapter for his own purposes.

I was thinking they could be made using re-descovered thunder warrior genes, which didnt have the traditional restrictions.
Or they could be from a planet which has its population mutated to be adapted to the process, so you wouldn't even need a particularly brilliant scientist to make it work. Just say "Yep these girls have genes in them to survive" and somebody descovered them.. With mutations that make people into wolf monsters and grow eyestocks this sounds simple making them all harboring a Y chromosome or something. Some genetic wibbly wabbly nonesense.

If they were all intersex, then that would absolutely work. A planet of intersex humans is certainly feasible. However, they wouldn't be women, but may have female traits, certainly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
It's a throwaway comment so GW didn't have to shell out the expenditure for making the molds for female SM torsos decades ago when they were just getting started.

Is that confirmed?

It really is nothing important. If it changes, literally nothing else in the universe is affected. It doesn't break the fluff at all because it has no effect on anything else at all.

Except every mention of Space Marines, because they should all then receive proper representation, as I've supported for the mixed gender armies (and Sisters).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Such as a Y chromosome? If they have a Y chromosome, then by biological argument (which seems to be what 40k is basing their definitions on), the abhuman is not a woman - they are intersex or male.

Why does the mutation have to be a Y chromosome? Why can't it be something else entirely that functions as a Y chromosome for the purpose of Astartes modifications but is otherwise inactive?

This is a universe where people can mutate so that tentacles erupt from their armpits. The above really isn't anything above and beyond.

We go back to why this is immutable fact and other things aren't?

Because of the outright statement that only male tissue types and hormone work?

I think we're all taking this a bit too far, honestly. Ultimately, it all boils down to this:

- Female Astartes, as in, the superhuman warriors created through the process devised by the Emperor of Mankind, are not possible. The lore outright states this (and I believe the Emperor himself touched upon the subject once, but I could be mistaken).

- Female Space Marines, as in, superhuman warriors created through any other means than the Imperium-sanctioned, Emperor-created process, are completely possible. There are numerous instances in the fluff where human beings have been altered genetically or biologically through various processes. For example, plenty of the old Imperial Army regiments that served in the Great Crusade had been genetically tampered with (such as the Geno Five-Two Chilliad).

As for 'why can't the women become Astartes?'... no-one but GW can answer that question. We can speculate, of course, but in the end, we have only the lore and the in-universe explanations to guide us.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I think we're all taking this a bit too far, honestly. Ultimately, it all boils down to this:

- Female Astartes, as in, the superhuman warriors created through the process devised by the Emperor of Mankind, are not possible. The lore outright states this (and I believe the Emperor himself touched upon the subject once, but I could be mistaken).

- Female Space Marines, as in, superhuman warriors created through any other means than the Imperium-sanctioned, Emperor-created process, are completely possible. There are numerous instances in the fluff where human beings have been altered genetically or biologically through various processes. For example, plenty of the old Imperial Army regiments that served in the Great Crusade had been genetically tampered with (such as the Geno Five-Two Chilliad).

As for 'why can't the women become Astartes?'... no-one but GW can answer that question. We can speculate, of course, but in the end, we have only the lore and the in-universe explanations to guide us.

I agree with this.
Astartes are not possible.
Female super soldiers are possible.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


With abhumans, yes, they won't be standard human, but the given rule seems to imply specifically male traits, which, if an abhuman had, they would have to be classed as male, no?
The actual quote we are given is "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types". The rule mentions specifically male hormones and tissues. Such as a Y chromosome? If they have a Y chromosome, then by biological argument (which seems to be what 40k is basing their definitions on), the abhuman is not a woman - they are intersex or male. Again, identification means nothing. So long as you have "male hormones and tissue types", which only males and intersex would have, you can be an Astartes. Yes, a loophole exists in intersex having a Y chromosome, but unless one has that chromosome, they cannot be a recognised and official Astartes.

An abhuman women with good old XQ chromosome (remember they don't necessarly have the same genes than normal humans and nowhere does it say that abhuman have to be able to reproduce with one another) could very well be implanted the geneseed because, due to hasard (or fate), it's compatible. Geneseed thus works only with XY chromosome (human male/intersex only) and XQ chromosome (female abhuman from Themyscira only). Why, because women from Themyscira produce prabofolium instead of testosterone and due to its chemical property, prabofolium "tricks" the geneseed into thinking that the women is a men and thus the implantation works. See how with bs science you can solve problems of bs sciences? Ain't that great!

There you go, I just made a loophole in the rule no women can be Space Marines because. It respect all the composant of the fluff while allowing for an exception.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


With abhumans, yes, they won't be standard human, but the given rule seems to imply specifically male traits, which, if an abhuman had, they would have to be classed as male, no?
The actual quote we are given is "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types". The rule mentions specifically male hormones and tissues. Such as a Y chromosome? If they have a Y chromosome, then by biological argument (which seems to be what 40k is basing their definitions on), the abhuman is not a woman - they are intersex or male. Again, identification means nothing. So long as you have "male hormones and tissue types", which only males and intersex would have, you can be an Astartes. Yes, a loophole exists in intersex having a Y chromosome, but unless one has that chromosome, they cannot be a recognised and official Astartes.

An abhuman women with good old XQ chromosome (remember they don't necessarly have the same genes than normal humans and nowhere does it say that abhuman have to be able to reproduce with one another) could very well be implanted the geneseed because, due to hasard (or fate), it's compatible. Geneseed thus works only with XY chromosome (human male/intersex only) and XQ chromosome (female abhuman from Themyscira only). Why, because women from Themyscira produce prabofolium instead of testosterone and due to its chemical property, prabofolium "tricks" the geneseed into thinking that the women is a men and thus the implantation works. See how with bs science you can solve problems of bs sciences? Ain't that great!

There you go, I just made a loophole in the rule no women can be Space Marines because. It respect all the composant of the fluff while allowing for an exception.

Yeah, this works. However, due to being XQ, how can we say that biologically these Amazons are female? Being female is being XX, so whilst these abhumans, if the Q chromosome acted as the "male" section, could be Astartes, they cannot be female.

Other than that, that explanation can work.

Adeptus Astartes were created by the God Emperor of Mankind, and to question his divine wisdom is nothing short of heresy.

And don't even think about bothering Guilliman with this nonsense right now, that would be downright heretical!
I would suggest the OP return to her duties, and remember that our place is not to question but to serve! Do not let such notions or the political ramblings of those unfit to be heard by this council fill your minds with such madness.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


With abhumans, yes, they won't be standard human, but the given rule seems to imply specifically male traits, which, if an abhuman had, they would have to be classed as male, no?
The actual quote we are given is "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types". The rule mentions specifically male hormones and tissues. Such as a Y chromosome? If they have a Y chromosome, then by biological argument (which seems to be what 40k is basing their definitions on), the abhuman is not a woman - they are intersex or male. Again, identification means nothing. So long as you have "male hormones and tissue types", which only males and intersex would have, you can be an Astartes. Yes, a loophole exists in intersex having a Y chromosome, but unless one has that chromosome, they cannot be a recognised and official Astartes.

An abhuman women with good old XQ chromosome (remember they don't necessarly have the same genes than normal humans and nowhere does it say that abhuman have to be able to reproduce with one another) could very well be implanted the geneseed because, due to hasard (or fate), it's compatible. Geneseed thus works only with XY chromosome (human male/intersex only) and XQ chromosome (female abhuman from Themyscira only). Why, because women from Themyscira produce prabofolium instead of testosterone and due to its chemical property, prabofolium "tricks" the geneseed into thinking that the women is a men and thus the implantation works. See how with bs science you can solve problems of bs sciences? Ain't that great!

There you go, I just made a loophole in the rule no women can be Space Marines because. It respect all the composant of the fluff while allowing for an exception.

Yeah, this works. However, due to being XQ, how can we say that biologically these Amazons are female? Being female is being XX, so whilst these abhumans, if the Q chromosome acted as the "male" section, could be Astartes, they cannot be female.

Other than that, that explanation can work.

This might surprise you but the XX and XY configuration isn't universal chicken are ZZ and ZW for example. Themsciran would look like human (exept taller and ridiculously pretty with funky eye and/or hair colors). There male would be XC and female XQ. Males aren't compatible with the geneseed due to being XC. Sexing is based on your reproductive role (and in the case of humans social role), not a chromosome type. Chicken with ZZ is a female just like a women is a female. A Themysiciran with XQ is just as much a women (and look like so) than a XX Terran women. One is just a female of a different specie that happens to be compatible with the geneseed thanks to a wierd twist of fate and the special property of prabofolium as a geneseed connector.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The reason I'm so against female Space Marines is because of the quote it originates from: "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types."

That's nonsense anyway. There are no exclusively male hormones and tissue types, unless being marine somehow literally requires that you have male genitalia.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


With abhumans, yes, they won't be standard human, but the given rule seems to imply specifically male traits, which, if an abhuman had, they would have to be classed as male, no?
The actual quote we are given is "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types". The rule mentions specifically male hormones and tissues. Such as a Y chromosome? If they have a Y chromosome, then by biological argument (which seems to be what 40k is basing their definitions on), the abhuman is not a woman - they are intersex or male. Again, identification means nothing. So long as you have "male hormones and tissue types", which only males and intersex would have, you can be an Astartes. Yes, a loophole exists in intersex having a Y chromosome, but unless one has that chromosome, they cannot be a recognised and official Astartes.

An abhuman women with good old XQ chromosome (remember they don't necessarly have the same genes than normal humans and nowhere does it say that abhuman have to be able to reproduce with one another) could very well be implanted the geneseed because, due to hasard (or fate), it's compatible. Geneseed thus works only with XY chromosome (human male/intersex only) and XQ chromosome (female abhuman from Themyscira only). Why, because women from Themyscira produce prabofolium instead of testosterone and due to its chemical property, prabofolium "tricks" the geneseed into thinking that the women is a men and thus the implantation works. See how with bs science you can solve problems of bs sciences? Ain't that great!

There you go, I just made a loophole in the rule no women can be Space Marines because. It respect all the composant of the fluff while allowing for an exception.

Yeah, this works. However, due to being XQ, how can we say that biologically these Amazons are female? Being female is being XX, so whilst these abhumans, if the Q chromosome acted as the "male" section, could be Astartes, they cannot be female.

Other than that, that explanation can work.

This might surprise you but the XX and XY configuration isn't universal chicken are ZZ and ZW for example. Themsciran would look like human (exept taller and ridiculously pretty with funky eye and/or hair colors). There male would be XC and female XQ. Males aren't compatible with the geneseed due to being XC. Sexing is based on your reproductive role (and in the case of humans social role), not a chromosome type. Chicken with ZZ is a female just like a women is a female. A Themysiciran with XQ is just as much a women (and look like so) than a XX Terran women. One is just a female of a different specie that happens to be compatible with the geneseed thanks to a wierd twist of fate and the special property of prabofolium as a geneseed connector.

XX and XY are standard in mammals though, and I am assuming these Themysicirians are mammals?
If they are a completely different species, does that not then rebel against the idea that Space Marines are humans, built of of the pure human image, which makes them more acceptable than that Ogryns and suchlike?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I made my reasons for the Ork situation. The reason I'm so against female Space Marines is because of the quote it originates from: "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types."

But that's one throwaway sentence among a sea of other sentences.

Why is that one sentence afforded utmost impunity when any number of other sentences are subject to flexibility?

On the subject of immutability of fluff (again, not lore, it's an important difference), this is the only official statement I've ever heard regarding fluff from the people in GW. AFAIK it's from Marc Gascoigne who is a senior GW writer/editor:

I'll happily be your tree. But I'm not sure you'll hear much of a crash. I weary of this question, and I weary of typing it all in yet again, yet again.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

Nowhere in there does it state 'except for the case of female Space Marines, that's rock-solid certainty'.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The reason I'm so against female Space Marines is because of the quote it originates from: "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types."

That's nonsense anyway. There are no exclusively male hormones and tissue types, unless being marine somehow literally requires that you have male genitalia.

There might not be exclusively male hormones and tissue types now, but remember, we're talking about 40.000 years in the future here. Who knows what kind of genetic evolution humanity will have gone through by the time the Emperor decides to create his Astartes?

Also, if we're just going to write off parts of the established lore as 'nonsense', then this entire discussion is utterly pointless. The in-universe explanation is what it is, whether we like it or not.

And this is getting rather off-topic I'm afraid...

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

There might not be exclusively male hormones and tissue types now, but remember, we're talking about 40.000 years in the future here. Who knows what kind of genetic evolution humanity will have gone through by the time the Emperor decides to create his Astartes?

That is completely absurd idea.

Also, if we're just going to write off parts of the established lore as 'nonsense', then this entire discussion is utterly pointless. The in-universe explanation is what it is, whether we like it or not.

It is just technobable, and if there's one thing I've learned from Star Trek, it is that you can always counter technobable with more technobable. "This is normally the case, but the theta radiation on this planet has caused an unusual mutation..." It is really all the explanation you need.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

There might not be exclusively male hormones and tissue types now, but remember, we're talking about 40.000 years in the future here. Who knows what kind of genetic evolution humanity will have gone through by the time the Emperor decides to create his Astartes?

That is completely absurd idea.

Why? Humanity is bound to have evolved in some way shape or form, either naturally or through genetic experimentation.

Also, if we're just going to write off parts of the established lore as 'nonsense', then this entire discussion is utterly pointless. The in-universe explanation is what it is, whether we like it or not.

It is just technobable, and if there's one thing I've learned from Star Trek, it is that you can always counter technobable with more technobable. "This is normally the case, but the theta radiation on this planet has caused an unusual mutation..." It is really all the explanation you need.

So we're countering nonsense with more nonsense then?


And again, this is all getting really off-topic...

That depends. I think it's still on topic. After all, one of the ideas listed is effected by this argument, though the argument itself is silly and never-ending and no one will ever budge until / unless GW decides feth it and changes its mind.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

There might not be exclusively male hormones and tissue types now, but remember, we're talking about 40.000 years in the future here. Who knows what kind of genetic evolution humanity will have gone through by the time the Emperor decides to create his Astartes?

That is completely absurd idea.

Why? Humanity is bound to have evolved in some way shape or form, either naturally or through genetic experimentation.

Which is exactly why claiming that there flat-out aren't any women at all in the entirety of the 40k universe that are compatible with the Astartes modifications, and no possible way at all to modify either so that they are compatible is patently absurd.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

There might not be exclusively male hormones and tissue types now, but remember, we're talking about 40.000 years in the future here. Who knows what kind of genetic evolution humanity will have gone through by the time the Emperor decides to create his Astartes?

That is completely absurd idea.

Why? Humanity is bound to have evolved in some way shape or form, either naturally or through genetic experimentation.

Which is exactly why claiming that there flat-out aren't any women at all in the entirety of the 40k universe that are compatible with the Astartes modifications, and no possible way at all to modify either so that they are compatible is patently absurd.

Or perhaps it is that final.

You can say that the canon is absurd in that it flat out claims that no woman can be a Space Marine, but someone could say it's equally absurd that people don't listen to the flat out claim that no woman can be a Space Marine.
Melissia hits it right on the head. This is "never-ending and no one will ever budge until / unless GW decides feth it and changes its mind."

Female Marines? Would look like GW trying to make a statement more than anything else, i'll pass.

Those new legions I hear about, if they have women in the ranks then you'll have it. Otherwise keep your political ideas off 30year lore thanks.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

There might not be exclusively male hormones and tissue types now, but remember, we're talking about 40.000 years in the future here. Who knows what kind of genetic evolution humanity will have gone through by the time the Emperor decides to create his Astartes?

That is completely absurd idea.

Why? Humanity is bound to have evolved in some way shape or form, either naturally or through genetic experimentation.

Which is exactly why claiming that there flat-out aren't any women at all in the entirety of the 40k universe that are compatible with the Astartes modifications, and no possible way at all to modify either so that they are compatible is patently absurd.

If the Emperor of Mankind couldn't do it, then no one else could, with the sole exception of Fabius Bile. It's a pretty straight forward argument.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or perhaps it is that final.

You can say that the canon is absurd in that it flat out claims that no woman can be a Space Marine, but someone could say it's equally absurd that people don't listen to the flat out claim that no woman can be a Space Marine.
Melissia hits it right on the head. This is "never-ending and no one will ever budge until / unless GW decides feth it and changes its mind."

It would be that final if it wasn't for this quote from GW that specifically states that nothing in any book is final in any way:

I'll happily be your tree. But I'm not sure you'll hear much of a crash. I weary of this question, and I weary of typing it all in yet again, yet again.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

Well, if we can all agree that further discussion on the lore behind Female Space Marines is pretty much pointless, perhaps we could focus on a more practical aspect of these Amazonian warriors, namely how one would model them?

Maybe Eisenkern stormtroopers to represent the power armour? Anvil Industry has recently released some nifty pieces for their regiments range too, including some Solar Auxilia-esque warplate...

 Ginsu33 wrote:
Otherwise keep your political ideas off

Because apparently someone can't like something you don't like without it being politics or something. Can we not have this "I hate SJWs" crap, and just admit sometimes people like things that you, personally, don't like? FFS I don't really care for female space marines, but that doesn't mean I can't see someone else finding their appeal. Insulting people and insinuating they don't honestly like something and it's all "politics" is really damn disrespectful. You're the only one bringing in politics, here. The rest of the people posting are merely passionate about what they like.

Games Workshop has not yet made an equivalent to female Space Marines. Maybe they someday will. Maybe not. I honestly don't care and won't care if they release them, either. But even without that, this is a science fiction setting where genetic manipulation, cybernetics, and augmentation are a thing, available to normal humans and not just Marines.

Hell, you could just say they're a group of already immensely strong amazonian women-warriors who are furthermore heavily cybernetically augmented to be roughly equivalent to marines. Bam, done. Not my thing, but it's certainly possible within the lore-- far more impressive augmentations have been done through cybernetics after all. It's not like they're using cybernetics to justify giving a character Eternal Warrior, which is a much more grievous abuse in my view.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

If the Emperor of Mankind couldn't do it, then no one else could, with the sole exception of Fabius Bile. It's a pretty straight forward argument.

Where does it state that he couldn't?

The only actual thing apparent is that he didn't. He could just as easily decided not to do it even though he could for any number of potential reasons:

1. Slightly more complicated to work with women, so costs outweigh benefits of increased recruiting populace
2. Thought that women were better off staying at home breeding the next generation of soldiers
3. Had his own brand of mysogeny and thought that the superhuman protectors of mankind should be manly men and manly men alone
4. Same as the above, but thought it was a man's duty to protect the innocent women of the universe

Any of those are as likely as a possibility that it is impossible, if not more.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Well, if we can all agree that further discussion on the lore behind Female Space Marines is pretty much pointless, perhaps we could focus on a more practical aspect of these Amazonian warriors, namely how one would model them?

I would suggest using Sisters of Silence as a base for conversion. They already have a knightly look to them after all.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or perhaps it is that final.

You can say that the canon is absurd in that it flat out claims that no woman can be a Space Marine, but someone could say it's equally absurd that people don't listen to the flat out claim that no woman can be a Space Marine.
Melissia hits it right on the head. This is "never-ending and no one will ever budge until / unless GW decides feth it and changes its mind."

It would be that final if it wasn't for this quote from GW that specifically states that nothing in any book is final in any way:

I'll happily be your tree. But I'm not sure you'll hear much of a crash. I weary of this question, and I weary of typing it all in yet again, yet again.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

Who is that quote attributed, and where can one find it?

At the same time, that doesn't give you a blank check to ignore lore. If you do, then no actual lore exists whatsoever, it is all fan-fic.

40k lore being fan-fic material might actually improve its quality. But that's neither here nor there.

Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or perhaps it is that final.

You can say that the canon is absurd in that it flat out claims that no woman can be a Space Marine, but someone could say it's equally absurd that people don't listen to the flat out claim that no woman can be a Space Marine.
Melissia hits it right on the head. This is "never-ending and no one will ever budge until / unless GW decides feth it and changes its mind."

It would be that final if it wasn't for this quote from GW that specifically states that nothing in any book is final in any way:

I'll happily be your tree. But I'm not sure you'll hear much of a crash. I weary of this question, and I weary of typing it all in yet again, yet again.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

My emphases in red. There is nothing that states that this is official, or nothing even giving a solid answer. This is the writer's personal view, and is not official, it even says so at the start.

Melissia wrote:Hell, you could just say they're a group of already immensely strong amazonian women-warriors who are furthermore heavily cybernetically augmented to be roughly equivalent to marines. Bam, done. Not my thing, but it's certainly possible within the lore-- far more impressive augmentations have been done through cybernetics after all. It's not like they're using cybernetics to justify giving a character Eternal Warrior, which is a much more grievous abuse in my view.

I'll support this. Cybernetics can easily accommodate for the statline of an Astartes. They won't be actual Marines, but can easily be equivalent.

Ezra Tyrius wrote:Well, if we can all agree that further discussion on the lore behind Female Space Marines is pretty much pointless, perhaps we could focus on a more practical aspect of these Amazonian warriors, namely how one would model them?

Maybe Eisenkern stormtroopers to represent the power armour? Anvil Industry has recently released some nifty pieces for their regiments range too, including some Solar Auxilia-esque warplate...

I think this is a good tangent.
As for modelling, I'd suggest still using Space Marine armour, but slimmed down and a lot of Astartes iconography removed (eagles, Aquilas, etc etc). Cannibalised armour, if you will?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

If the Emperor of Mankind couldn't do it, then no one else could, with the sole exception of Fabius Bile. It's a pretty straight forward argument.

Where does it state that he couldn't?

The only actual thing apparent is that he didn't. He could just as easily decided not to do it even though he could for any number of potential reasons:

1. Slightly more complicated to work with women, so costs outweigh benefits of increased recruiting populace
2. Thought that women were better off staying at home breeding the next generation of soldiers
3. Had his own brand of mysogeny and thought that the superhuman protectors of mankind should be manly men and manly men alone
4. Same as the above, but thought it was a man's duty to protect the innocent women of the universe

Any of those are as likely as a possibility that it is impossible, if not more.

No one in the Imperium is even ASKING these questions.
And what women want to be Marines? 0000.1%?

There already exists enough man-power for the chapters to recruit, and Marines tend to recruit warriors and gangsters, no woman is going to be amongst them unless it's a special case, sorry to break it to you. And then it becomes one of those weird things where Chapter Equality has women, here have a Marine head with non-regulation hair to glue on your Marine or a chest plate with moulded breasts so women are represented because a dozen people asked for it?

 Ginsu33 wrote:
[snip for space]

Do you have a point or are you just gonna continue to try to push your politics on to the hobby?

The fact is, we don't KNOW if "is anyone asking these questions in-lore". There's 10,000 years of Imperial history, with the Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus constantly trying to find old technology, the Inquisition constantly searching for new methods of strengthening the Imperium, and chapters constantly struggling to find new viable recruits-- someone somewhere has likely asked it. Doesn't matter, regardless.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ginsu33 wrote:
[snip for space]

Do you have a point or are you just gonna continue to try to push your politics on to the hobby?

My politics? That 30 years of lore > essentially a head swap. My points are clear enough for anyone bothering to pay attention here.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

If the Emperor of Mankind couldn't do it, then no one else could, with the sole exception of Fabius Bile. It's a pretty straight forward argument.

Where does it state that he couldn't?

Astartes are genetic clones of the Primarch which are genetic clones of the EoM? Can't really make Male genes that compatible female genes.

The only actual thing apparent is that he didn't. He could just as easily decided not to do it even though he could for any number of potential reasons:

1. Slightly more complicated to work with women, so costs outweigh benefits of increased recruiting populace

The Emperor isn't one to say "hey that's slightly out of my comfort zone" and not do it.

2. Thought that women were better off staying at home breeding the next generation of soldiers
3. Had his own brand of mysogeny and thought that the superhuman protectors of mankind should be manly men and manly men alone

Yes, because the Sisters of Silence would exist if the Emperor was a frothing mysoginist.

4. Same as the above, but thought it was a man's duty to protect the innocent women of the universe

Unless you take into account that the Imperial Army, Navy, Admech and AdTitanicus are mixed sexes.

Any of those are as likely as a possibility that it is impossible, if not more.

Except that none have every been implied or asked by anyone in the 10,000 years the Emps has been a thing.

I think the armour should also reflect the rules that they're using, as in, if the army's using Space Marine rules, Space Marine armour would be appropriate. Otherwise, the armour of SM Scouts or Scions could work too, with some female headswaps of course.

 Ginsu33 wrote:
My politics?

You've already outright said that you think that someone having a conversion idea that they find cool is "political". So yes, your politics. Keep your goddamned politics out of my hobby.

Your "point" has no point. It's already been well established that there's no canon female Space Marines. But that's irrelevant. There's plenty of things players do that aren't canon-- in fact, every single battle that players participate in is a non-canon battle until or unless Games Workshop includes it in their own narrative.

Should people stop playing the game until they get permission from GW to have their battles be canon? Of course not. "30 years of lore" is irrelevant. Games Workshop changes its "30 years of lore" all the time. Centurions never existed until a few years ago, and now suddenly they've always been there. So that "30 years of lore" isn't a sacred cow. It's just there, in all its self-contradictory, ever-changing glory. So we take what we can and what we want from it and build the universe that most appeals to us.

FFS stop making such terribly bad arguments that I feel obligated to defend female space marines.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes are genetic clones of the Primarch

No, they are not.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I think the armour should also reflect the rules that they're using, as in, if the army's using Space Marine rules, Space Marine armour would be appropriate. Otherwise, the armour of SM Scouts or Scions could work too, with some female headswaps of course.

Scions could really only work if you were running your dudes with Sniper rifles. Otherwise I'd stick to the scout minis and do head swaps (and trim that massive codpiece down.)

 Melissia wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes are genetic clones of the Primarch

No, they are not.

Warhammer Wikia wrote:Thus, for most Astartes, their Progenoid Glands represent the only form of reproduction they will ever know, though the DNA passed on will be that of their Primarch, not their own.

 troa wrote:


Who is that quote attributed, and where can one find it?

At the same time, that doesn't give you a blank check to ignore lore. If you do, then no actual lore exists whatsoever, it is all fan-fic.

It's attributed to Marc Gascoigne, a senior writer and developer at GW. Apologies, I don't know of somewhere where I can find the source, but I'll get back to you on that.

You're absolutely 100% on the money regarding the fact that no actual lore exists, and it's all fan-fic. That's the point, and it's an utterly fantastic one.

40k is, as far as I can tell, utterly unique in the fact that we as the consumers are encouraged outright to make our own stuff up and have it be just as legitimate as the stuff that appears in the codices. It's one of the reasons 40k has been so successful when other IPs haven't. The stigma of 'fanfic vs lore' is something that downright does not belong in 40k. We're encouraged to come up with our own armies, and at no point are we ever told that anything in our armies is no-go by the people from GW.

If you want to support the assertion that there is actual bonafide canon or lore in 40k, I'd ask for a quote from GW to support it. I've provided one to the contrary.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
My emphases in red. There is nothing that states that this is official, or nothing even giving a solid answer. This is the writer's personal view, and is not official, it even says so at the start.

Fair enough, and you can take whatever emphasis you like to support your views. I don't think that negates the overall message of the quote though, which is that it is the writer (who is a senior member of GW) asserts that nothing in the 40k universe can be taken as gospel because anything might be incorrect.

We come back to my original point of why this particular point is immutable, which I still haven't heard a reasonable justification for beyond 'well, maybe it is immutable'.

I'd also ask the same thing of yourself as I have of troa. Could you provide me with a statement from GW that asserts that the fluff we read in the 40k rulebook and codices is immutable fact?

 Ginsu33 wrote:

And what women want to be Marines? 0000.1%?

I'm sorry but this displays a fundamental lack of understanding of how women's minds work, which is pretty damn near identical to how men's do.

If you want an example of how women react to the threat on their lives that war represents, I'd point towards the massive upswell among the women of the countries involved in WW2. There were protests organised by women for them to join the army.

Why would a woman not want to be biologically augmented to fight the enemies of mankind, just as a man might?

 Ginsu33 wrote:

There already exists enough man-power for the chapters to recruit, and Marines tend to recruit warriors and gangsters, no woman is going to be amongst them unless it's a special case, sorry to break it to you. And then it becomes one of those weird things where Chapter Equality has women, here have a Marine head with non-regulation hair to glue on your Marine or a chest plate with moulded breasts so women are represented because a dozen people asked for it?

This isn't really about that. This is about someone wanting to convert an army of 'their dudes' and a veritable legion of people shouting from the rooftops about how she can't do it because it breaks fluff. No-one's asking for female marine torsos to be released alongside male ones. We're asking for something that's a fantastically minor part of the fluff not to be treated as gospel when damn near everything else around it is changeable.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Ezra Tyrius wrote:Well, if we can all agree that further discussion on the lore behind Female Space Marines is pretty much pointless, perhaps we could focus on a more practical aspect of these Amazonian warriors, namely how one would model them?

Maybe Eisenkern stormtroopers to represent the power armour? Anvil Industry has recently released some nifty pieces for their regiments range too, including some Solar Auxilia-esque warplate...

I think this is a good tangent.
As for modelling, I'd suggest still using Space Marine armour, but slimmed down and a lot of Astartes iconography removed (eagles, Aquilas, etc etc). Cannibalised armour, if you will?

This is what this thread should have been about from the get go before people started getting het up about the idea of female marines for no good reason.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Warhammer Wikia is fanfiction.

Well if anyone has any more modelling ideas, I'd love to hear them! Maybe we should make a list of possible parts, for quick reference and stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Y'know, looking at the new Custodes and Sisters of Silence models, I'm thinking one could make a very awesome female space marine out of kitbashing those two together...

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes are genetic clones of the Primarch

No, they are not.

Warhammer Wikia wrote:Thus, for most Astartes, their Progenoid Glands represent the only form of reproduction they will ever know, though the DNA passed on will be that of their Primarch, not their own.

That doesn't state that they're genetic clones. All that states is that the DNA contained within their Progenoid Gland is their Primarch's.

In fact, the sole way that Astartes get around the whole 'holy human form' thing is that they are still genetically human, just biologically augmented. Their genome is human.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Except that none have every been implied or asked by anyone in the 10,000 years the Emps has been a thing.

And that means OP isn't allowed to have female marines because...

Still stands that there is flat-out zero evidence that the Emperor couldn't make female Marines. The only thing is that he didn't, for whatever reason.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Well if anyone has any more modelling ideas, I'd love to hear them! Maybe we should make a list of possible parts, for quick reference and stuff.

For purely 40k minis, baseline Imperial power armor comes in three forms-- astartes, sororitas, and sisters of silence, ideally I'd recommend astartes or sisters of silence, the latter IMO being more in line with what the OP wants, I think. Heads can be swapped from sororitas, sisters of silence, and dark eldar / eldar.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

Y'know, looking at the new Custodes and Sisters of Silence models, I'm thinking one could make a very awesome female space marine out of kitbashing those two together...

That's a pretty good idea actually. I had forgotten about Custodes, as is their lot in life.

Those Sisters of Silence are so expensive though...

But yeah, head-swaps and those kits would be a good start.

If the OP is willing to go down the 'horrific genetic experimentation'-route, the Sicarian Ruststalkers might make a good starting point as well...

 Melissia wrote:

 Ginsu33 wrote:
My politics?

You've already outright said that you think that someone having a conversion idea that they find cool is "political". So yes, your politics. Keep your goddamned politics out of my hobby.

Your "point" has no point. It's already been well established that there's no canon female Space Marines. But that's irrelevant. There's plenty of things players do that aren't canon-- in fact, every single battle that players participate in is a non-canon battle until or unless Games Workshop includes it in their own narrative.

Should people stop playing the game until they get permission from GW to have their battles be canon? Of course not. "30 years of lore" is irrelevant. Games Workshop changes its "30 years of lore" all the time. Centurions never existed until a few years ago, and now suddenly they've always been there. So that "30 years of lore" isn't a sacred cow. It's just there, in all its self-contradictory, ever-changing glory. So we take what we can and what we want from it and build the universe that most appeals to us.

FFS stop making such terribly bad arguments that I feel obligated to defend female space marines.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes are genetic clones of the Primarch

No, they are not.

I'm not interested in your fan fiction though, sorry.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Astartes are genetic clones of the Primarch which are genetic clones of the EoM? Can't really make Male genes that compatible female genes.

They aren't clones. But you could totally make a female 'clone' of a man. Just get rid of the Y chromosome* and use the X twice.

(* which has very little of genetic information anyway.)

None of you is going to let this discussion go, isn't it?

Another thought: Genestealers cultists could be a good starting point too, and would only require a few headswaps to look convincing, I think.

 Ginsu33 wrote:


I'm not interested in your fan fiction though, sorry.

Gee what a thoughtful, well made and valuable comment. You've really made me reconsider my opinions on this. /s


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
None of you is going to let this discussion go, isn't it?

Another thought: Genestealers cultists could be a good starting point too, and would only require a few headswaps to look convincing, I think.

You know i think you're right

GS Cults with headswaps are another good idea.

I'm not certain they're beefy enough to look genetically modified though.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Another thought: Genestealers cultists could be a good starting point too, and would only require a few headswaps to look convincing, I think.

That would certainly be a mutant abomination with the potential to be MEQ. But might not be human enough for the OP.

Recruitment world that has a species of human that are mostly intersexual. Or a mutation species where men become women/women become men as they grow older?

Still, what do they look like? A box of damn tactical marines! What's the point?! Their not going to make MK.VII for a woman, its made for superhumans and will look the same for all marines.

The OP wanted female marines to stir the pot, and was looking for justification, but its absurd because its simply an aesthetic so minor its questionable what the point is.

And why only females? Why not mixed marines? So no I don t take it seriously because I dont see any real attempt to consider what it would be like in universe. New Marines of either gender will be fine if GW goes down that road.

 Ginsu33 wrote:
Recruitment world that has a species of human that are mostly intersexual. Or a mutation species where men become women/women become men as they grow older?

Still, what do they look like? A box of damn tactical marines! What's the point?! Their not going to make MK.VII for a woman, its made for superhumans and will look the same for all marines.

The OP wanted female marines to stir the pot, and was looking for justification, but its absurd because its simply an aesthetic so minor its questionable what the point is.

And why only females? Why not mixed marines? So no I don t take it seriously because I dont see any real attempt to consider what it would be like in universe. New Marines of either gender will be fine if GW goes down that road.

So honestly what's the big deal if she wants to do it? So what?

Why is it so controversial?

Oh, and i think it's an assumption that the 'OP wanted female marines to stir the pot' is a pile of crap. She explicitly wanted that she knew it was controversial, put imagination into trying to find ways to do it that are less controversial.

What about that suggests she only did it to stir the pot?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
What about that suggests she only did it to stir the pot?

DizzyStorey wrote:I do relish the idea of pissing off everyone around me with my space marines

I'm starting to think that the OP has left this thread a while ago...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
What about that suggests she only did it to stir the pot?

DizzyStorey wrote:I do relish the idea of pissing off everyone around me with my space marines

Tell me, if that was the only motivation, why did she put the effort in to think up ideas of how to make it fit the fluff?

 DizzyStorey wrote:
I have a few other ideas of how it could work too.. And I never said endorsed by the imperium, Infact iv said it was heretical and isolated multiple times. Kinda like this lunatic who made them wanted his own little privet chapter for his own purposes.

I was thinking they could be made using re-descovered thunder warrior genes, which didnt have the traditional restrictions.
Or they could be from a planet which has its population mutated to be adapted to the process, so you wouldn't even need a particularly brilliant scientist to make it work. Just say "Yep these girls have genes in them to survive" and somebody descovered them.. With mutations that make people into wolf monsters and grow eyestocks this sounds simple making them all harboring a Y chromosome or something. Some genetic wibbly wabbly nonesense.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I'm starting to think that the OP has left this thread a while ago...

Probably. If people hadn't got their panties in a twist about a very minor throwaway comment in the fluff that has taken on a seemingly gospel quality, we might have had a fruitful discussion here.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
What about that suggests she only did it to stir the pot?

DizzyStorey wrote:I do relish the idea of pissing off everyone around me with my space marines

Tell me, if that was the only motivation, why did she put the effort in to think up ideas of how to make it fit the fluff?

 DizzyStorey wrote:
I have a few other ideas of how it could work too.. And I never said endorsed by the imperium, Infact iv said it was heretical and isolated multiple times. Kinda like this lunatic who made them wanted his own little privet chapter for his own purposes.

I was thinking they could be made using re-descovered thunder warrior genes, which didnt have the traditional restrictions.
Or they could be from a planet which has its population mutated to be adapted to the process, so you wouldn't even need a particularly brilliant scientist to make it work. Just say "Yep these girls have genes in them to survive" and somebody descovered them.. With mutations that make people into wolf monsters and grow eyestocks this sounds simple making them all harboring a Y chromosome or something. Some genetic wibbly wabbly nonesense.

I'm not saying I supported Ginsu's point, I'm just saying that there is some level of evidence to suggest pot stirring, as it is called, so much so to the point that a thread was closed because of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I'm starting to think that the OP has left this thread a while ago...

Probably. If people hadn't got their panties in a twist about a very minor throwaway comment in the fluff that has taken on a seemingly gospel quality, we might have had a feuitful discussion here.

That comment is no more throwaway than any other singular piece of fluff. How is it any more throwaway than any other, if all 40k fluff is unreliable? How is some fluff more equal than others?

If there were mercenaries I'd like to see them added to an inquisition codex and have it be a legit codex of its own and maybe add some special rules/formations so that inquistors can more easily group various things together without breaking formation limit rules and things like that. Maybe even add some kind of rogue traders into it also. Working with mutants, abhumans, or xenos is something that inquistors do as they start to drift away from purist views and rogue traders cross into a lot of mercenary and smuggler work.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I'm starting to think that the OP has left this thread a while ago...

Probably. If people hadn't got their panties in a twist about a very minor throwaway comment in the fluff that has taken on a seemingly gospel quality, we might have had a feuitful discussion here.

That comment is no more throwaway than any other singular piece of fluff. How is it any more throwaway than any other, if all 40k fluff is unreliable? How is some fluff more equal than others?

Precisely! So please answer my question. Why is the 'no female space marine' thing immutable gospel while other stuff is mutable?

And yes. All 40k fluff is unreliable, as stated by one of the guys that comes up with the stuff.

Please find me a statement that suggests otherwise.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I'm starting to think that the OP has left this thread a while ago...

Probably. If people hadn't got their panties in a twist about a very minor throwaway comment in the fluff that has taken on a seemingly gospel quality, we might have had a feuitful discussion here.

That comment is no more throwaway than any other singular piece of fluff. How is it any more throwaway than any other, if all 40k fluff is unreliable? How is some fluff more equal than others?

Precisely! So please answer my question. Why is the 'no female space marine' thing immutable gospel while other stuff is mutable?

Or, perhaps the other stuff is immutable?
That's our difference. You believe all fluff defaults as mutable. I believe all fluff defaults as immutable.

This is the point at which we can't move either on, and I think this is a good place to leave this.

And yes. All 40k fluff is unreliable, as stated by one of the guys that comes up with the stuff.

Please find me a statement that suggests otherwise.

I highlighted them in red. He said himself that it was his personal view, not the officially held on amongst the company, and that he didn't state an actual answer. He said "perhaps".

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I'm starting to think that the OP has left this thread a while ago...

Probably. If people hadn't got their panties in a twist about a very minor throwaway comment in the fluff that has taken on a seemingly gospel quality, we might have had a feuitful discussion here.

That comment is no more throwaway than any other singular piece of fluff. How is it any more throwaway than any other, if all 40k fluff is unreliable? How is some fluff more equal than others?

Precisely! So please answer my question. Why is the 'no female space marine' thing immutable gospel while other stuff is mutable?

And yes. All 40k fluff is unreliable, as stated by one of the guys that comes up with the stuff.

Please find me a statement that suggests otherwise.

I wish I could keep asking the same question over and over again until someone finally cracked and gave me what I wanted.

You had your answer on the first page of this thread. The whole debate on female Astartes is stupid because one side says "Femarines can't exist" while the other keeps asking why.

*quietly sobbing in the background as the fire rages on in this thread*

Seriously, can't we just drop the argument and think of ways to model Female Space Marines instead?

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
*quietly sobbing in the background as the fire rages on in this thread*

Seriously, can't we just drop the argument and think of ways to model Female Space Marines instead?

This is fair.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

XX and XY are standard in mammals though, and I am assuming these Themysicirians are mammals?
If they are a completely different species, does that not then rebel against the idea that Space Marines are humans, built of of the pure human image, which makes them more acceptable than that Ogryns and suchlike?

Yes, but there are exceptions and Themyscirans would be one of them.

Yes they are from a different specie wich grants them different abilities and characteristics but they are still humans in the wide sense of terms. Themyscirans, being beautiful, strong, intelligent and very humanlike in apperance are considered much better than disgusting ratlings and brutish orgryns. Thus they were allowed more rights. Due the warlike nature of the inhabitant of the planet a Space Marine Chapter inherited rulership of the world and was forced to draw its recruit from it. Ironically, their attempts to find male candidates to recover their numbers failed, but they found out that women could accept the geneseed thanks to their peculiar hormonal chemistry. Over time, the Chapter changed of name and became exclusively female due to their particular restrictions. See, there is no stopping it. Once you start inventing stuff you can make it fit. You just need a little bit of imagination and know how to use bs science and weird appenstance to make it fit and keep it cool.

As for models, I would use mostly Sister Of Silence. They look tall and slightly wierd for human women. They would be perfect for female Space Marines. I would only change the helmet for something more classic and some weapon choices to add diversity.

 Ginsu33 wrote:
Female Marines? Would look like GW trying to make a statement more than anything else, i'll pass.

Those new legions I hear about, if they have women in the ranks then you'll have it. Otherwise keep your political ideas off 30year lore thanks.

The emperor could do it, it was just impractical and had an extraordinarily high instability rate. Only 1 in a trillion woman are compatible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Well, if we can all agree that further discussion on the lore behind Female Space Marines is pretty much pointless, perhaps we could focus on a more practical aspect of these Amazonian warriors, namely how one would model them?

Maybe Eisenkern stormtroopers to represent the power armour? Anvil Industry has recently released some nifty pieces for their regiments range too, including some Solar Auxilia-esque warplate...

I was going to buy female heads on space marine body but using the tribal furs an fetishes of the space wolves but none of there symbols or insignias. Probably paint all furs tiger paterns and such.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I'm starting to think that the OP has left this thread a while ago...

Probably. If people hadn't got their panties in a twist about a very minor throwaway comment in the fluff that has taken on a seemingly gospel quality, we might have had a feuitful discussion here.

That comment is no more throwaway than any other singular piece of fluff. How is it any more throwaway than any other, if all 40k fluff is unreliable? How is some fluff more equal than others?

Precisely! So please answer my question. Why is the 'no female space marine' thing immutable gospel while other stuff is mutable?

Or, perhaps the other stuff is immutable?
That's our difference. You believe all fluff defaults as mutable. I believe all fluff defaults as immutable.

No, i'm sorry. The difference between our views is that i believe all fluff could be immutable because I am told all fluff could be immutable by someone who is involved in creating the fluff.

You believe all fluff is immutable for reasons that i can't find evidence for.

Please find me anything from anyone in any way affiliated with GW that states that the fluff is immutable.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:


I wish I could keep asking the same question over and over again until someone finally cracked and gave me what I wanted.

I'll stop asking as soon as anyone can provide me with an answer as to why other fluff is mutable and this isn't.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

You had your answer on the first page of this thread. The whole debate on female Astartes is stupid because one side says "Femarines can't exist" while the other keeps asking why.

Very true, and so far no-one from the 'can't exist' side has come up with an answer for that question beyond 'because one of the books says so', which i have already demonstrated by a quote from a senior GW employee is intended to be mutable. That's notwithstanding the masses of evidence of other things being mutable in the fluff all over the P&M blogs section of this forum.

So, please, i ask again. Why is this particular piece of fluff immutable?

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Well, if we can all agree that further discussion on the lore behind Female Space Marines is pretty much pointless, perhaps we could focus on a more practical aspect of these Amazonian warriors, namely how one would model them?

Maybe Eisenkern stormtroopers to represent the power armour? Anvil Industry has recently released some nifty pieces for their regiments range too, including some Solar Auxilia-esque warplate...

I was going to buy female heads on space marine body but using the tribal furs an fetishes of the space wolves but none of there symbols or insignias. Probably paint all furs tiger paterns and such.

Will you be filing off all the chest insignia too? I can't really imagine a Space Marine torso without the bling, so I'm curious what that would look like

Just bear in mind that the aquila isn't an astartes symbol. It's an Imperial symbol. A lot of the "bling" is that way actually.

 DizzyStorey wrote:

I was going to buy female heads on space marine body but using the tribal furs an fetishes of the space wolves but none of there symbols or insignias. Probably paint all furs tiger paterns and such.

Sounds good.

I once converted a female marine, but unfortunately I have ho idea where the model is now.

As for how would female marines look in general, I think Overwatch's Zarya has pretty much the sort of physique I'd imagine them having.

DizzyStorey wrote:

 Ginsu33 wrote:
Female Marines? Would look like GW trying to make a statement more than anything else, i'll pass.

Those new legions I hear about, if they have women in the ranks then you'll have it. Otherwise keep your political ideas off 30year lore thanks.

The emperor could do it, it was just impractical and had an extraordinarily high instability rate. Only 1 in a trillion woman are compatible.

Is that a canon source?

Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I'm starting to think that the OP has left this thread a while ago...

Probably. If people hadn't got their panties in a twist about a very minor throwaway comment in the fluff that has taken on a seemingly gospel quality, we might have had a feuitful discussion here.

That comment is no more throwaway than any other singular piece of fluff. How is it any more throwaway than any other, if all 40k fluff is unreliable? How is some fluff more equal than others?

Precisely! So please answer my question. Why is the 'no female space marine' thing immutable gospel while other stuff is mutable?

Or, perhaps the other stuff is immutable?
That's our difference. You believe all fluff defaults as mutable. I believe all fluff defaults as immutable.

No, i'm sorry. The difference between our views is that i believe all fluff could be immutable because I am told all fluff could be immutable by someone who is involved in creating the fluff.

You believe all fluff is immutable for reasons that i can't find evidence for.

Please find me anything from anyone in any way affiliated with GW that states that the fluff is immutable.

Because, as default, in nearly every source of lore for every fictional universe, that lore is canon.
If I see lore, I assume that to be immutable, because that is the norm. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be the norm, and I don't see any other fictional universe cite that their lore is all immutable. Yes, it is based on assumption, but one of societal norms in our real world.

In 40k, the only thing we have to suggest it is anything but that is a non-official quote from a writer who doesn't give a straight answer. And that's meant to justify all 40k fluff being mutable?
If so, why does this sub-forum exist? If all fluff is mutable, and can be treated as half-truths, speculation, etc etc - how can we ever discuss 40k lore?

That's all I can say on the matter.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
As for how would female marines look in general, I think Overwatch's Zarya has pretty much the sort of physique I'd imagine them having.

This seems pretty right, maybe sans boobplate, but otherwise solid.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Because, as default, in nearly every source of lore for every fictional universe, that lore is canon.
If I see lore, I assume that to be immutable, because that is the norm. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be the norm, and I don't see any other fictional universe cite that their lore is all immutable. Yes, it is based on assumption, but one of societal norms in our real world.

In 40k, the only thing we have to suggest it is anything but that is a non-official quote from a writer who doesn't give a straight answer. And that's meant to justify all 40k fluff being mutable?
If so, why does this sub-forum exist? If all fluff is mutable, and can be treated as half-truths, speculation, etc etc - how can we ever discuss 40k lore?

That's all I can say on the matter.

You're right. You're making an assumption based on other IPs that the fluff in 40k is immutable.

However, 40k is different from those other IPs in that it is explicitly stated that any part of the fluff could well be mutable.

You say 'how does a non-official quote from a GW writer justify that all fluff is mutable'? It provides the only statement from GW regarding its fluff policy. Please find something anywhere which actually states that the 40k fluff is immutable, other than an assumption you have made based on other IPs.

It's unfair to keep asking as i'm fairly certain that there isn't one, and i'm really sorry to labour the point, i really don't want any bad blood of any sort, but it's important otherwise we give people like DizzyStorey a really crap experience by belittling her ideas rather than trying to make them work. All because we've placed more importance on one small piece of fluff over and above its actual effect on the rest of the universe.

I've also heard the concept that 'if theres no canon, how do we debate it?' before. It's not a prerequisite to debate or discussion. The whole thing's made up and we still discuss it fine. Whether some bits are more made up than others makes no difference.

Back on topic sort-of, i think you're bang on about female marines looking like Zarya from overwatch. How would be the best way to model that (probably sans boob-plate)?

I can't think of anything other than a marine model that's actually marine-sized. Stormcast are too big, and normal humans are too small.

I like the merc idea, myself. A challenge to create and a challenge to play.

having a good laugh reading this thread..

but @Sgt_Smudge If Fabious Bile is good enough to work out how to do something like a female Spacemarine. What makes you think in a galaxy of over a biliion trillion people, he would be the only one?

GodDamUser wrote:
having a good laugh reading this thread..

but @Sgt_Smudge If Fabious Bile is good enough to work out how to do something like a female Spacemarine. What makes you think in a galaxy of over a biliion trillion people, he would be the only one?

Ambition and warp magic. He'd be like Abbadon if Abbadon took biology instead of the "how to be bad at your job for 10,000 years" course.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Ambition and warp magic. He'd be like Abbadon if Abbadon took biology instead of the "how to be bad at your job for 10,000 years" course.

but Fabious was already playing around with Genetics and 'improving' Spacemarines before the Horus Heresy had started in which he would of been only 100years old at max

GodDamUser wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Ambition and warp magic. He'd be like Abbadon if Abbadon took biology instead of the "how to be bad at your job for 10,000 years" course.

but Fabious was already playing around with Genetics and 'improving' Spacemarines before the Horus Heresy had started in which he would of been only 100years old at max

A gene-seed can be fiddled with up to a point. I thought you were talking about the almost-Horus he made after they were pushed into the EoT.

Well I mean I can buy the heretek storyline for female marines, while not actual Imperial Spacemarines, you just use the same rules

And if you want a fluffy reason for that.. the same Heretek raised them to a very strictly following the Codex Astarte

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Ambition and warp magic. He'd be like Abbadon if Abbadon took biology instead of the "how to be bad at your job for 10,000 years" course.

but Fabious was already playing around with Genetics and 'improving' Spacemarines before the Horus Heresy had started in which he would of been only 100years old at max

A gene-seed can be fiddled with up to a point. I thought you were talking about the almost-Horus he made after they were pushed into the EoT.

Off-topic, but that always struck me as odd.

I thought the Emperor obliterated Horus' soul and very existence from the warp. Shouldn't that have made it impossible to bring back (and the reason why Big E did it), given that primarchs are partially warp-born beings.

Seems it's not just us that can play around with mutable fiction

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

If the Emperor of Mankind couldn't do it, then no one else could, with the sole exception of Fabius Bile. It's a pretty straight forward argument.

Where does it state that he couldn't?

Astartes are genetic clones of the Primarch which are genetic clones of the EoM? Can't really make Male genes that compatible female genes.

The only actual thing apparent is that he didn't. He could just as easily decided not to do it even though he could for any number of potential reasons:

1. Slightly more complicated to work with women, so costs outweigh benefits of increased recruiting populace

The Emperor isn't one to say "hey that's slightly out of my comfort zone" and not do it.

2. Thought that women were better off staying at home breeding the next generation of soldiers
3. Had his own brand of mysogeny and thought that the superhuman protectors of mankind should be manly men and manly men alone

Yes, because the Sisters of Silence would exist if the Emperor was a frothing mysoginist.

4. Same as the above, but thought it was a man's duty to protect the innocent women of the universe

Unless you take into account that the Imperial Army, Navy, Admech and AdTitanicus are mixed sexes.

Any of those are as likely as a possibility that it is impossible, if not more.

Except that none have every been implied or asked by anyone in the 10,000 years the Emps has been a thing.

Somehow I feel if he were a patriarchal mysogonest it would be better. Cause you could actually say its apart of the religion and structure of the world. The one they went with is cheap and flimsy, sounds like an excuse..

"Quiet in metal gear solid has to be naked cause she breaths through her skin, so you cant criticize!"

GodDamUser wrote:
Well I mean I can buy the heretek storyline for female marines, while not actual Imperial Spacemarines, you just use the same rules

And if you want a fluffy reason for that.. the same Heretek raised them to a very strictly following the Codex Astarte

I have no issues with Chaos femarines because Chaos likes to say "I reject your logic and substitute my own."

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Well I mean I can buy the heretek storyline for female marines, while not actual Imperial Spacemarines, you just use the same rules

And if you want a fluffy reason for that.. the same Heretek raised them to a very strictly following the Codex Astarte

I have no issues with Chaos femarines because Chaos likes to say "I reject your logic and substitute my own."

So you have no issues with Femarines then.

Because the only difference between Codex marines and Chaos marines are their ideological viewpoint. One fights to protect the Imperium the other rejects the imperium and/or worships the Chaos Gods

Now a this group of Femarines have being raised under the strict guidelines of the Codex, and generally loyal to the imperium (while not sanctioned, but who knows maybe there is an Inquisitor involved they are everywhere) I would have no issues with them using Codex Spacemarines

@Sgt Smudge I have to admit I feel I owe you an apology :S I've been quite vehement in my defence of the mutability of fluff, and if you find more enjoyment in interpreting the fluff as being immutable then I've got no right to tell you how you're supposed to view things in your own head! That's the beauty of 40k. It does a damn good job of catering for everyone.

I just don't want that to affect the experience of a new poster here on dakka having her genuinely pretty well thought out idea feel like it's belittled and end up going off either the game or dakka as a potential result.

Likewise, I don't want you to think that you're not welcome or valued here either (not sure if you do or not, but I wouldn't want you to!) just because we disagree on this particular thing, doesn't mean that I don't think the rest of your ideas are pretty damn neat you seem like someone who knows his stuff at the very least, and you've put a lot of effort into trying to make this idea work within your interpretation of the 40k universe which is better than many people I've discussed this with

GodDamUser wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Well I mean I can buy the heretek storyline for female marines, while not actual Imperial Spacemarines, you just use the same rules

And if you want a fluffy reason for that.. the same Heretek raised them to a very strictly following the Codex Astarte

I have no issues with Chaos femarines because Chaos likes to say "I reject your logic and substitute my own."

So you have no issues with Femarines then.

Because the only difference between Codex marines and Chaos marines are their ideological viewpoint. One fights to protect the Imperium the other rejects the imperium and/or worships the Chaos Gods

CSM and SM are the same?

Now a this group of Femarines have being raised under the strict guidelines of the Codex, and generally loyal to the imperium (while not sanctioned, but who knows maybe there is an Inquisitor involved they are everywhere) I would have no issues with them using Codex Spacemarines

You want to have lady super soldiers rolling around? Cool. You want to have lady Astartes? Get outta here with that. Just call them super soldiers or genetically augmented or whatever but don't call them Astartes. Use the codex: Space Marines all you want, but lore wise, they are Astartes.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


I just don't want that to affect the experience of a new poster here on dakka having her genuinely pretty well thought out idea feel like it's belittled and end up going off either the game or dakka as a potential result.

We went over this, it wasn't.

Make a case for Chaos Grey Knights. See how that goes.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

CSM and SM are the same?

yes fundamentally they are, they have different ideology but are one in the same in fact the vast majority were Loyalist at the start (now rules wise Codex CSM got the short end of the stick)

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

You want to have lady super soldiers rolling around? Cool. You want to have lady Astartes? Get outta here with that. Just call them super soldiers or genetically augmented or whatever but don't call them Astartes. Use the codex: Space Marines all you want, but lore wise, they are Astartes.

I don't get your repulsion to calling them Astartes. A rose by any other name is still a rose

 Quickjager wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


I just don't want that to affect the experience of a new poster here on dakka having her genuinely pretty well thought out idea feel like it's belittled and end up going off either the game or dakka as a potential result.

We went over this, it wasn't.

Make a case for Chaos Grey Knights. See how that goes.

It was a pretty well thought out idea I thought. It's more than 'I just want SM with boobs', she actually went into the detail of coming up with the idea of a rogue tech-magos that in his hubris made a planet full of women with astartes modifications. Seemed pretty reasonable and non-fluff-breaking to me.

As for Chaos Grey Knights, isn't there something in the Chaos Daemons codex about someone that sounds suspiciously like a particular Grey Knight Mary Sue that was seduced by Slaanesh...

GodDamUser wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

You want to have lady super soldiers rolling around? Cool. You want to have lady Astartes? Get outta here with that. Just call them super soldiers or genetically augmented or whatever but don't call them Astartes. Use the codex: Space Marines all you want, but lore wise, they are Astartes.

I don't get your repulsion to calling them Astartes. A rose by any other name is still a rose

Agreed. I don't get it either. There's so much importance placed on that one particular sentence, utterly disproportionate to its relevance to any other part of the fluff.

I mean if you really want to bring that up go ahead. Now build an entire chapter of them. I'm waiting.

 Quickjager wrote:
I mean if you really want to bring that up go ahead. Now build an entire chapter of them. I'm waiting.

Well Chaos marines generally don't have Chapters, They generally have Warbands and groups of renegades.. So it could be generally easy to have a isolated Group of Grey Knights seduced by the powers of Chaos.

And yet it ignores every bit of fluff out there about Grey Knights and destroys a large part of their identity to do so. GK fans, whats left of them, would declare the faction dead.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
CSM and SM are the same?

Apart from loyalty and some minor difference (marks, a bit of equipment, and combat doctrine), they're very, very similar. They're all marines in the end. Next you're going to be telling me that space wolves aren't really marines because they have mark of the wulfen and are equipped with wolf-claws and wolf-pelt armor riding their wolf-wolves utilizing their wolf-spirits to cast wolf-spells so that they can fight in preparation for the wolf-time.

 Quickjager wrote:
I mean if you really want to bring that up go ahead. Now build an entire chapter of them. I'm waiting.

Actually I have one. I am bad at writing though

Brother (insert name) brothers laid dead around him as he battled the Daemon Prince, he was bleeding but determined to banish this fell beast. He saw an opening and took it and stabbed the beast through the chest and he incited the rites of banishment. The daemon lashed out as it faded back into the warp and left Brother (insert name) a deep wound in his shoulder.

Brother (insert name) was never an ambitious member, but after that encounter he quickly rose up the ranks, and was assigned command on a (remote outpost/generic location).
He took to command well and was well liked by his brothers under him. He encouraged comradely, which over the years ever so slightly more and more involed(not the right word really)...

basically he starts to do blood Brother rituals but the process is so slow no one really takes notice, Turns out the deamon he had Vanquished has incerted a part of himself in to this duder, who slowly becomes corrupted and then 'infects' the other around him through blood brother packs ritual drinks and such.

BAM CHAOS GREY KNIGHTS


Its kinda like radical Inquisitors, will be a slow process but they will turn.. and at the same time believe they are still true to the Emperor

Lame Knights more like, if that was all it would take to corrupt one.

 Quickjager wrote:
And yet it ignores every bit of fluff out there about Grey Knights and destroys a large part of their identity to do so. GK fans, whats left of them, would declare the faction dead.

If anyone's able to come up with a reasonable fluff reason for a warband of Chaotic Grey Knights then I'm all ears. If Slaanesh can corrupt one of them, I see no reason she shouldn't be able to corrupt enough for a warband in the 40,000 years she's had to do it in. It's not as if someone's saying 'Oh yeah, all Grey Knights are as easy to corrupt as normal Marines'. One warband's worth isn't going to destroy a large part of their fluff and result in the declaration that their faction is dead. That strikes me as a very, very extreme reaction to something that is also not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

Is 'no female can become a Marine' even that integral to the identity of a Space Marine? I genuinely don't believe it is. It only is by the artificial inflation of a single sentence in the fluff to gospel.

You could have 'the absolute vast majority of Space Marines are male, due to compatibility issues with their biological enhancements. Only a handful of insane and borderline heretical Tech Magi in the history of the Imperium have been both intelligent, experienced, and hubristically insane enough to modify the process to function on women'.

The universe wouldn't implode. People wouldn't start burning their SM armies in Youtube. Literally nothing would happen.

Or, at least, nothing should happen. What would likely happen is that you'd get a massive community backlash of people stating 'but they can't be women and proper Astartes' and then not quite being able to explain why that's the case when other breaks in the fluff are perfectly fine.

And yet it was never stated to be a Grey Knight. I'm ignoring the female marines, I don't give a fig about that. But when you say EVERY bit off fluff is pointless then I have a problem.

 Quickjager wrote:
And yet it was never stated to be a Grey Knight. I'm ignoring the female marines, I don't give a fig about that. But when you say EVERY bit off fluff is pointless then I have a problem.

At which point did I say that any bit of fluff, let alone every bit of fluff, is pointless?

I said it's all subject to mutability provided you have a half-decent in-universe reason for it. Why does that make it pointless?

You page 5

I've also heard the concept that 'if theres no canon, how do we debate it?' before. It's not a prerequisite to debate or discussion. The whole thing's made up and we still discuss it fine. Whether some bits are more made up than others makes no difference.

 Quickjager wrote:
I mean if you really want to bring that up go ahead. Now build an entire chapter of them. I'm waiting.

Didn't I just did that on this very thread? What's your opinion on it?

 Quickjager wrote:
Lame Knights more like, if that was all it would take to corrupt one.

Well my lame story writing more than anything. Kida have a epic struggle within his head while they bounce around and keep kicking arse..

The idea is that the entire process would take a couple hundred years.

And the fact that there is now a Grey Knights Character who gets summon daemon powers, makes their ability to be corrupted even higher possibility, As with Inquisitors their willingness to use Chaos to fight Chaos is quite often the first step on becoming corrupted beyond redemption

 Quickjager wrote:
You page 5

I've also heard the concept that 'if theres no canon, how do we debate it?' before. It's not a prerequisite to debate or discussion. The whole thing's made up and we still discuss it fine. Whether some bits are more made up than others makes no difference.

I think you've misunderstood me there. I never stated that I thought any of it was pointless at all. What I actually said was:

Whether some bits are more made up than others makes no difference.

How does that suggest I think it's pointless? Just because something is 'made up' does that mean it's pointless? I don't think so, especially seeing as it is 'made up', being fantasy and all.

And besides, the original question I've been asking this whole thread through still remains unanswered: why is it that this one particular sentence in the fluff is accorded gospel-like importance when other pieces of fluff that have similarly little effect on anything else in the universe, aren't?

Yea and I told you I don't CARE about the female marines, no one does at this point, rather I'm addressing the idea of canon in 40k. There is a series of solid 100% factual things in 40k, things that are immutable.

- A Bolter is a gun in use by Space Marines variants and the Imperium as a whole. That is 100% immutable.
- A thing called the Horus Heresy happened and it fethed up a great deal of stuff.
- There are races called Orks, Necrons, etc.

Things that never CAN happen in 40k include obvious things like

- A 40k setting that Necrons don't exist. Period.
- A 40k without Space Marines.

If you just handwave everything as fantasy and that it can be made up as you go then it isn't 40k. Its something else.

EDIT: If Chaos Grey Knights ever exist then the entire point of Grey Knights, as Paladins in Space is ruined. It's something else that is immutable. And if you say I'm ruining people's fun by saying they can't exist, then I can say the same by pointing out Chaos GK existence would ruin MY fun with them and many others.

 Melissia wrote:
But good and evil are beyond Orks. They simply are, IMO. That said, if someone wanted to play their Orks as more heroic than most Orks would even try to be, I'm not gonna stop them.

I 100% agree with your view of Orks .. well, it really isn't your view - it's actually how Orks are in this IP. And sure what could either of us do to stop someone from having some kind of headcanon about Orks being altruistic heroes or whatever? Nothing, is what. But I think you and I can agree that such a vision of Orks is boring and frankly dumb. Or would that make us racists?

 DizzyStorey wrote:

The emperor could do it, it was just impractical and had an extraordinarily high instability rate. Only 1 in a trillion woman are compatible.

Is that accurate?
If that's the case, female Marines would work because:
1: It would be nice for people such as yourself to see the gender represented
2: It's grimdark enough to discover 1 in a trillion actually make it so for most chapters that do accept a woman, it's usually a death sentence for them but if one survives the process maybe she gets a special title or something? If that's not accurate and they need the Y chromo, well I refer to the intersexual stuff or some kind of genetic abnormality that allows it, making women extremely rare.

It would have to be cultural within the Imperium for this to work, families sending daughters with the hope one will be chosen by the Emperor to survive, and perhaps it only happens every few years because the Chapters prefer not to bother with it but are more understanding as it is a religious kind of thing so they tolerate it on some worlds, other Chapters may not.

These "Battle Sisters" would be indistinguishable from other Marines however, to make them stand out, they should have a special kind of helm to indicate that they were *chosen* by the Emperor to survive the process, and bring the wrath of his judgement to the enemies of the Imperium.

Perhaps a specific MK.VII torso with the imaginary of a woman on it, some kind of knock off to the woman of justice with a blindfold around her eyes or something idk.

So a new torso and helmet, add in a colour stripe or marking somewhere, and there you go, female Marines.
But I can't see an entire Chapter of them. and as I said before the aesthetics keeping in line with Marines don't really make the changes too significant but it fits in my mind.

I think this kind of stuff has more to do with an in fluff justification rather than an actual miniature.. if the text said females were in there, we would just imagine a Marine with his helmet on might actually be a woman and move on. But if you want specific kind of Mk. created just for females, that's ridiculous because their bodies are no longer normal anyway. they would look like apes as the men do.

But that's the best justification I can come up with to allow 1 or even 2 women in a battle company running around that shouldn't be too hard for people to swallow.

 Quickjager wrote:

If Chaos Grey Knights ever exist then the entire point of Grey Knights, as Paladins in Space is ruined. It's something else that is immutable. And if you say I'm ruining people's fun by saying they can't exist, then I can say the same by pointing out Chaos GK existence would ruin MY fun with them and many others.

No Man is above the temptation of Chaos, and while the grey Knights are highly trained and protected.. while they carry around such corrupt artifacts such as book containing fell knowledge they are open to said corruption

Even the Emperor consorted with the Gods for his power.

You say Paladins, I presume you mean in a D&D sense where there are several ways for your paladin to become a fallen paladin

Are you saying the Big E has fallen to Chaos? Really? That's stupid as saying the Grey Knights have fallen.

DnD is another game it has no place here and you should be smart enough to realize that.

 Quickjager wrote:
Are you saying the Big E has fallen to Chaos?

No, I am saying he made deals with the Chaos Gods for his power, and used them for the creation of the Primarchs, the Chaos gods in their anger to get back at the Emperor scattered his sons across the Galaxy.

Corruption does take a while though... and the stronger the mind the longer it takes.. But Chaos is eternal and it can wait.


Also you referring to Grey Knights as space paladins, was more of the DnD reference. as I don't know a setting where paladins are immune to corruption


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But also think of this... The fact that the Emperor's Sons were able to be manipulated by daemons, even as recently as Gathering Storm with Guilliman being tormented as he traveled to Terra. What makes you think that the Grey Knights are no more vulnerable

Holy heckin heck. Let's all move on from the Femstartes. Can we just call them genetically enhanced and call it a day?

GodDamUser wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Are you saying the Big E has fallen to Chaos?

No, I am saying he made deals with the Chaos Gods for his power, and used them for the creation of the Primarchs, the Chaos gods in their anger to get back at the Emperor scattered his sons across the Galaxy.

Corruption does take a while though... and the stronger the mind the longer it takes.. But Chaos is eternal and it can wait.


Also you referring to Grey Knights as space paladins, was more of the DnD reference. as I don't know a setting where paladins are immune to corruption


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But also think of this... The fact that the Emperor's Sons were able to be manipulated by daemons, even as recently as Gathering Storm with Guilliman being tormented as he traveled to Terra. What makes you think that the Grey Knights are no more vulnerable

Being corrupted and being tricked are two different things, if I put whip cream in someone shaving cream canister does that make them corrupted by my ideas? The Grey Knight Geneseed was made to be specifically untaintable after the Big E saw his failure in not putting that in the first place.

 Quickjager wrote:
Yea and I told you I don't CARE about the female marines, no one does at this point, rather I'm addressing the idea of canon in 40k. There is a series of solid 100% factual things in 40k, things that are immutable.

- A Bolter is a gun in use by Space Marines variants and the Imperium as a whole. That is 100% immutable.
- A thing called the Horus Heresy happened and it fethed up a great deal of stuff.
- There are races called Orks, Necrons, etc.

Things that never CAN happen in 40k include obvious things like

- A 40k setting that Necrons don't exist. Period.
- A 40k without Space Marines.

If you just handwave everything as fantasy and that it can be made up as you go then it isn't 40k. Its something else.

EDIT: If Chaos Grey Knights ever exist then the entire point of Grey Knights, as Paladins in Space is ruined. It's something else that is immutable. And if you say I'm ruining people's fun by saying they can't exist, then I can say the same by pointing out Chaos GK existence would ruin MY fun with them and many others.

Ok, you don't care about Female Marines, but because that was the original point that has still yet to be settled or agreed upon (and evidently other people still care about it as evidenced by myself and the last quote on this reply), I'd like to get to the bottom of that.

Thankyou for actually making an attempt to answer my question of what makes a piece of fluff immutable by providing examples of stuff that you feel is immutable. That's a step forwards. Now, can you please explain why you feel that these particular pieces of fluff are immutable where others aren't:

- A 40k setting that Necrons don't exist. Period.
- A 40k without Space Marines.

From what I can tell, is it something to do with 'if you change this, everything about that faction or the universe in general is irrevocably changed to the point that tons of other fluff makes no sense'? That seems like a fairly reasonable justification for something not being changeable.

Please note that that is not mutually incompatible with the statement that I hold to be true: 'everything could be mutable, provided you have a half-decent fluff explanation for it'. I cannot think of a half-decent fluff explanation for 'Necrons don't actually exist', so that seems likely.

As for the ability of Grey Knights to fall to Chaos, are they actually 100% immune to corruption? If they are 100% immune to corruption, then why do they constantly scan through their ranks for corruption? As stated in The Emperor's Gift, Grey Knights themselves do not know if they are corruptible or not. Having one of them fall to Chaos in no way 'destroys the faction's fluff'.

I'd point towards this thread which discusses the topic and comes to the same conclusions: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469878.page

If you don't mean the D&D reference, could you please explain what you mean by 'Paladins in space', and why this means that they 100% cannot be corrupted? Apologies, but the link is unclear.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Holy heckin heck. Let's all move on from the Femstartes. Can we just call them genetically enhanced and call it a day?

If someone can actually answer my question of why that one particular sentence in the fluff is immutable when others of similar irrelevance to the wider universe aren't then I am perfectly happy to just call them genetically enhanced and call it a day.

I don't think people can because any justification for a piece of fluff being immutable (such as the one that Quickjager has started to provide), hinges on the destructive effect that change has on other aspects of the universe. Here's some examples of fluff changes with their relative importance described using the above model:

1. The Emperor is a Tau - he needed to be a powerful psyker to make the Primarchs, so as a Tau with a Blunt psychic signature the whole Primarch thing wouldn't really have been possible. Destructive. Hard to find a fluffy justification for.
2. Necrons don't exist - if Necrons don't exist, then everyone who has ever collected Necrons, or played against Necrons, sudden;y doesn't have an army that exists or matters. Destructive. Hard to find a fluffy justification for.
3. There is one planet out there among billions where a rogue Magos found out a way to meld 100% Astartes modifications with a 100% female population - changes literally nothing about every single other Marine, process to make a Marine, Chapter, facet of Imperial culture, or other army that people have collected. Not destructive in the slightest. Easy to find a fluffy justification for.

So why are people so dead-set against it? Unless it makes them feel iffy to think about Female Space Marines moreso than another change in a similarly innocuous and low-relevance piece of fluff. Can people please reflect on their own internal though-processes to reach that conclusion and prove me wrong about it please. I really don't like the connotations the above explanation has.

So, until someone can actually provide me with a justification for that stance, can we just call them Astartes and call it a day?

Come on Ynneadwraith, no Grey Knight having ever fallen to Chaos is a defining part of their background. Taking that away removes a large part of their identity.

As for the female Space Marines thing, it's said that Space Marines can't be female and people tend to dislike retcons. It's just viewed as worse when it's a player doing it rather than the actual company. It's just how it is.