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No I don't find it weird, I have never argued for or against female marines. I care about people saying fluff is meaningless.

And yes I share that unfortunate history of cringe-worthiness as a Grey Knight aficionado... something I hope slowly gets forgotten as time goes on.

 Melissia wrote:
they stand as equals alongside augmented humans

Yeah it is hard to imagine an Astartes being unimpressed by SoB. I guess he could be a little wary of her zealotry (unless he's a BT) but he would have to respect that she is such a badass despite having none of his enhancements.

I was more thinking of Goge Vandire and the insinuation I got that he was using them as a harem, thus "Brides" of the Emperor.

On this topic of whether something does or does not gel with the established setting, one thing I don't think works is the notion that a human being serving the Tau would be promoted to command Tau. Is anyone aware of any published fluff on this one way or the other?

I honestly never got that vibe from it, looking at it more closely yea I can see it.

EDIT: This was in regards to Melissia

I always had the impression that there was some untold Big Brother/Little Sister thing between the Astartes and the SoB where each is different, but bother can hold their own and admire each other.

Back on subject, from what I've read, the humans among Tau were almost all rank and file dudes, but I'd say I'm limited in that aspect of the fluff having only read 2-3 stories where human auxiliaries exist.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Big Brother/Little Sister thing between the Astartes and the SoB

My dream army is plastic Sisters supported by Stormcast scale BT.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
the humans among Tau were almost all rank and file dudes

I freely concede that my impression is just that - an impression. The ironic patina of the Tau fluff has always strongly suggested to me that the Tau see non-Tau as either useful subjects or troublesome obstacles - but everything is in service to the manifest destiny of their own race.

Manchu wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
the humans among Tau were almost all rank and file dudes

I freely concede that my impression is just that - an impression. The ironic patina of the Tau fluff has always strongly suggested to me that the Tau see non-Tau as either useful subjects or troublesome obstacles - but everything is in service to the manifest destiny of their own race.

I wholly concur with you on the Manifest Destiny aspect of the Tau. I could see that a human could be promoted to a Fireteam or Pathfinder team leader, but nothing much higher.

Thought it might be a good idea to spoiler any further discussion on female Astartes seeing as we seem to have moved past it!

 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: ...What did they do with male nulls, why are Sisters of Silence all female... I kinda want to know more now.

Ooh now that is a neat question I bet it's something really horrible and grimdark that happens to them.

Actually, is there any fluff examples of a female Culexus assassin? That might be where they all go...

Manchu wrote:
On this topic of whether something does or does not gel with the established setting, one thing I don't think works is the notion that a human being serving the Tau would be promoted to command Tau. Is anyone aware of any published fluff on this one way or the other?

Yeah I'll agree with that impression, based on the suggested elitist/fascist undercurrents to Tau fluff.

They'd need a good explanation for how they got there if anyone wanted to use it

Manchu wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Big Brother/Little Sister thing between the Astartes and the SoB

My dream army is plastic Sisters supported by Stormcast scale BT

Stormcasts are BIG! They're taller than my Truescale Marines.

I'm a little disappointed that they've still got dodgy proportions though. Literally everything about them is fine, except the fact that they've got slightly longer shins than they should. People's bodies tend to work in proportion with other bits of people's bodies, such that if anything's out of scale it looks weird. Look closely at Stormcasts and their shins are too long :S

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: ...What did they do with male nulls, why are Sisters of Silence all female... I kinda want to know more now.

Ooh now that is a neat question I bet it's something really horrible and grimdark that happens to them.

Actually, is there any fluff examples of a female Culexus assassin? That might be where they all go...

Nemesis, by James Swallow, is about an Execution Force that attempts to assassinate Horus during the Horus Heresy. One of the Assassins is a female Culexus. In fact, she's even the cover art for the book

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: ...What did they do with male nulls, why are Sisters of Silence all female... I kinda want to know more now.

Ooh now that is a neat question I bet it's something really horrible and grimdark that happens to them.

Actually, is there any fluff examples of a female Culexus assassin? That might be where they all go...

Nemesis, by James Swallow, is about an Execution Force that attempts to assassinate Horus during the Horus Heresy. One of the Assassins is a female Culexus. In fact, she's even the cover art for the book

Gotcha, thanks

Could still be where all the male Blanks go, but there's a whole heap'o mystery regarding the Sister of Silence that it would be neat to find a little more about

I doubt it follows any practical logic. Gender restriction is generally cultural.

There was also a fluff piece way back, that stated that a greater of pariahs were female.

Also it is likely cultural thing. Not just in they made the choice to make them a all female army.. It is probably easier to identify female blanks within a society, as when in modern (I know) hermits and general society outcasts are more often male, a female one would get looked at with greater scrutiny

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: ...What did they do with male nulls, why are Sisters of Silence all female... I kinda want to know more now.

Ooh now that is a neat question I bet it's something really horrible and grimdark that happens to them.

Actually, is there any fluff examples of a female Culexus assassin? That might be where they all go...

Nemesis, by James Swallow, is about an Execution Force that attempts to assassinate Horus during the Horus Heresy. One of the Assassins is a female Culexus. In fact, she's even the cover art for the book

Gotcha, thanks

Could still be where all the male Blanks go, but there's a whole heap'o mystery regarding the Sister of Silence that it would be neat to find a little more about

I bet the send them off to guard the "Hero of the Imperium"

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

I bet the send them off to guard the "Hero of the Imperium"

he was the greatest blank of them all..

And kinda falls within the greater scrutiny thing

GodDamUser wrote:
that stated that a greater of pariahs were female

I think I remember that. Was that from Abnett? But considering the huge scale of 40k, even if only a tiny fraction of men are pariahs, compared to women, there would likely still be enough to recruit and train such that you wouldn't have the Sisters of Silence. My guess is, it has to do with some ancient tradition from the dim reaches of humanity's past that was passed on into the glorious age of the Emperor, like using a double-headed eagle as the symbol of the Imperium.

Manchu wrote:
On this topic of whether something does or does not gel with the established setting, one thing I don't think works is the notion that a human being serving the Tau would be promoted to command Tau. Is anyone aware of any published fluff on this one way or the other?

While I'm not aware of any HUMANS under the Tau being promoted to the point of commanding Tau forces, that isn't the case generally in the Tau Empire for non-Tau member species.

Kroot Shapers generally, if they earn sufficient respect, can end up equipped with Pulse Weapons rather than their normal Kroot rifles. Similarly, the rules for Gue'la troops in the original Taros Campaign provided that humans could earn sufficient respect to bear Pulse Weapons as well.

Further, Anghkor Prok was a Kroot Shaper who was particularly respected by the Fire Castes and the Tau Empire in general, to the point where he was permitted to take command of Fire Caste forces in the field (which was, IIRC, actually reflected in his rules).

The relationship between the Kroot and the Tau Empire is arguably a bit unique, but I see no particular reason why a human sufficiently dedicated to the Greater Good couldn't reach similar levels of respect and admiration.

The rarity would be high, but with more and more human populations under the Tau Empire umbrella (as a result of several reasonably successful Spheres of Expansion) and with greater and greater forces aligning against the Tau (Orks, Tyranids, and a newly-re-Primarched pseudo-legion potentially reforming), I think it would be very odd for the Tau Empire to ignore the potential that humans would present as an aspect of (though preferrably not a replacement of) the combined armed forces of the Tau Empire, given sufficient indoctrination in the ways of the Greater Good, up to and including their potential as leaders within that movement.

There is undoubtedly (in my opinion) a strong undercurrent of Tau-specific racial superiority and preferential position within the Tau Empire, no doubt. Its subtlety compared to that of the Imperium (which are at least honest about their species-ism) keeps it entertaining...

But when it comes down to it, like the Imperium, the Tau are willing to sacrifice the ideal (Purge the Xenos/Ascend the Tau/Human) for the practical (Sanction the Xenos because they're just that useful to Humanity's end goal/Grant that gue'la command of both gue'la and Tau forces because he's just that useful for the war effort).




Re: Female Space Marines... I support their inclusion in the setting if they're given a sufficient fluff justification, because one of the most common way to make "Your Dudes" into YOUR dudes is to make them stand out from the rest of the broader faction from which they come. It isn't the ONLY way, but it certainly is a common way. A rogue Magos focused on the biological side of technology sufficiently capable to the point they can alter/trick one small aspect of the Astartes geneseed (it being keyed to male hormones/tissue types) is not out of the question for an Empire of a million worlds of trillions of trillions of trillions of subjects. and would absolutely fit that criteria. So would a planet of Abhuman Amazonian women who, due to mutations on their X chromosomes, end up producing sufficiently male-like hormones and tissue types that the Astartes geneseed works just fine (albeit probably with the same levels of failure rates or worse). So would a planet of Intersex (XXY) citizens.

And while I'm sympathetic to the resistance to changes to the fluff in the form of retcons, I'd also be perfectly fine if, like Centurion armor, Wraithknights, and even Dreadknights... female Astartes ended up being a part of the 40k universe the entire time. The end result would be practically indistinguishable (they'd be augmented warrior monks), and there doesn't appear to be anything necessary about marrying a particular sex or gender to that augmented warrior monk concept that I find compelling, any more than an army of unaugmented men who derive power from Faith in the Emperor.

And finally, representation can matter for people who are traditionally underrepresented, and females in positions of authority and as warriors are pretty damn rare in fantasy/sci fi settings generally, and in WH40k in particular. That's going to be harder to empathize with if you're so used to representation in almost all media that you don't have personal experience in its lack. That isn't a condemnation on being a white male, and it doesn't imply one should feel guilty for being so - its merely a reminder that the extent and even existence of our personal biases are sometimes invisible to us, in the same way a mermaid might find complaints about the ability to breath underwater to be puzzling and irrelevant.

Yes, there are Sisters of Battle (a small army in the fluff, and one almost criminally ignored and abused, in both fluff and game mechanics), but they're hardly a broad swath...and there is pretty much no denying that Space Marines are THE posterboys of the 40k universe, and they are not only exclusively male, but vehemently defended as such even in the face of imminently reasonable fluff justifications that would allow their inclusion.

It is not a condemnation of all that is WH40k to acknowledge the cultural and social framework within which 40k was created (and continues to be created over the last 30 years, including innumerable retcons and backwards-compatible inclusions), and continuing those changes in the light of making the slightest bit of room for more broad representation seems like it shouldn't need to be met with torches and pitchforks. To cleave religiously to a tradition molded by cultural standards no longer appropriate seems counter-productive, and creates a catch-22 preventing reasonable changes/additions to a setting to keep it relevant, IMO.

The fact of the matter is that culture has a helluva lot of momentum, and the culture regarding female representation and position has a long and nasty history. I don't think its enough to cling to a crystallized moment of culture and keep it because of tradition alone, and IMO, that's pretty much what the Male-exclusive Astartes Poster Boys ends up being.

Again, this is not intended to suggest that the players who prefer male-only Astartes are necessarily sexist or misogynist. You don't need to be so to be unaware of your own biases (that's just human nature, when it comes right down to it). I have my own biases, undoubtedly, and they almost certainly color my perception and the arguments I make. Someone calling me out on a perceived bias isn't necessarily condemning me for holding them, and its better to presume that (even if done so in a less-than-deferential manner) they're trying to help me achieve a more objective/neutral viewpoint (an ideal, IMO, that's never truly achievable, but always worth pursuing).

The example of Anghkor Prok is very interesting. To me, building a legend like this is entirely in line with the Tau-first impression I have of their fluff. Consider that this guy is the most famous, most celebrated Kroot of all time. And what is his greatest achievement/reward? He - seemingly alone among his race - gets put in command of Tau ... not quite the pinnacle of success for a Tau.

Agreed, though by being put in charge of Tau forces, that implies he has achieved at least as much respect as a warrior and leader as a Shas'o or Shas'el. While that isn't the absolute pinnacle, it is close enough to be a helluva significant achievement, and it is undeniably an achievement that goes beyond what a vast majority of Fire Caste members will ever achieve.

I don't see why a Your Dude human couldn't achieve something similar in the right circumstances. One would need to be careful to avoid Mary Sue-ism, but that's just about always the case when dealing with Your Dude situations, so that line of thought seems mostly a non sequitur.

Manchu wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
that stated that a greater of pariahs were female

I think I remember that. Was that from Abnett? But considering the huge scale of 40k, even if only a tiny fraction of men are pariahs, compared to women, there would likely still be enough to recruit and train such that you wouldn't have the Sisters of Silence. My guess is, it has to do with some ancient tradition from the dim reaches of humanity's past that was passed on into the glorious age of the Emperor, like using a double-headed eagle as the symbol of the Imperium.

Abnett didn't come up with it, It was a small piece either centered around 3rd ed Assassins or Necrons... But he certainly did continue on with that fluff in Eisenhorn, but then followed up with two male Blanks in Ravenor

Oh I agree that it is a mighty accomplishment - but the very reason it's such a big deal is because it happened in a Tau-supremacist society.

Another question is, are there any examples of non-Tau and Tau bonding in the Ta’lissera? I mean formally in the usual context, not some kind of ad hoc battlefield situation.

Manchu wrote:
Oh I agree that it is a mighty accomplishment - but the very reason it's such a big deal is because it happened in a Tau-supremacist society.

Another question is, are there any examples of non-Tau and Tau bonding in the Ta’lissera? I mean formally in the usual context, not some kind of ad hoc battlefield situation.

Never heard of it ever happening, and for exactly the Tau-Supremacist reasons we've discusses, it seems even less likely for it to happen often at all.

But I wouldn't put it out of the question for a Your Dude (again, so long as you're careful about the Mary Sue aspects) so long as the bond justifying the Ta'Lissera Ritual is sufficiently justified by events.

I don't ever see the Tau performing such a culturally important ritual in the face of even the most extraordinary "ad hoc battlefield situation" personally, and the sort of interpersonal integration that would justify it beyond that would again be rare... just not impossible.

GodDamUser wrote:
Also it is likely cultural thing. Not just in they made the choice to make them a all female army

Games Workshop, however, did.

 Melissia wrote:
Games Workshop, however, did.

Well yeah they did.

But they may of been thinking maybe these reasons...

But really most likely.. We have all Male Custodies, lets have all Female Sisters of Silence!

In concur. Deep thought is not a Games Workshop specialty.

 Melissia wrote:
In concur. Deep thought is not a Games Workshop specialty.

What tipped you off?

Angron? Lion El'Johnson and the Dark Angels? The God-Emperor? The Tau? Commoragh? Night Haunter? Perturabo?

Still waiting for that Mercenary codex. I want Kroot as an army with looted vehicles of all descriptions.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
In concur. Deep thought is not a Games Workshop specialty.

What tipped you off?

Angron? Lion El'Johnson and the Dark Angels? The God-Emperor? The Tau? Commoragh? Night Haunter? Perturabo?

The fact that it was called Warhammer 40,000, IE, "Warhammer Fantasy Battle-- IN SPAAAAAACE!".

 Melissia wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
In concur. Deep thought is not a Games Workshop specialty.

What tipped you off?

Angron? Lion El'Johnson and the Dark Angels? The God-Emperor? The Tau? Commoragh? Night Haunter? Perturabo?

The fact that it was called Warhammer 40,000, IE, "Warhammer Fantasy Battle-- IN SPAAAAAACE!".

Got a better idea Touché. They probably could've gotten by by calling it Millenium 41 or M41 or just 40k.

Oh come on guys 40k wasn't always so SRS BSNS like it has been since 4E. The names (and concepts!) are all pretty suitable for a toy soldiers game with low-key, swelf-aware humor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
so long as you're careful about the Mary Sue aspects

I'm not sure it could be avoided. OTOH, I could imagine pretty entertaining story about a human who deserts the Guard to escape execution by Commissar or something and the Tau promote him to some kind of cushy position for propaganda purposes - the joke would be that the guy thinks he is actually being promoted for merit and all the Tau guys around him have to constantly keep a straight face about the whole thing. Could be a British sitcom.