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Like I said, no one wanted to be called a nerd or a geek when I was a kid. It wasn't just another hue in the vibrant rainbow of everyone being allowed to "self-identify." There were blockbuster sci fi and superhero movies in those days, too. Pretty much everyone liked them but that's obviously not what got you bullied. Same thing when the MtG boom first hit. Thing is, some people liked this stuff not because it was "the thing" for that month or whatever but because it was a kind of refuge for them


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GodDamUser wrote:
Why not both

Wait are you saying love of anime and putting down your own culture while idealizing a different culture could go together?

Manchu wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Why not both

Wait are you saying love of anime and putting down your own culture while idealizing a different culture could go together?

Sure why not. The Models are to appease the Anime, Mecha loving fans.. while at the same time taking a jab at humanity with social commentary in the fluff saying that these guys worked together and advanced so far in such a short time.

LOL should have used sarcasm tags huh?

feth THE TAU 8TH EDITION ANNOUNCED BOYS!!!

I dont know how old you are but when I was growing up this was never the case, nerds were just one of many social circles of self identifier labels and were no less or more important than anyone else, although those who self identified as nerds were often elitist, looking down on others and ostrisizing anyone who tried to enjoy there hobbies, i remember one occasion ware i was told not to play magic the gathering cause i was too stupid to keep up. So no i dont believe in the victim complex that nerds are these ever underdogs and the downtrotten of society. they are like everyone else, some are dicks, some are cool and for the most part they use pointles slabels to self identify... I dont even use the term nerd anymore.


Oh and about the Ethereals.
The way the Tau see it is when you join the empire you are basically apart of the force that serves the eathereals, you are basically a pawn for the greater good, you are given something to believe in and put to work. ITs not equality but it sure beats some of the evil horrible stuff everyware else in the galaxy.
Basically I think they view it not on a race by race basis but on a unity basis, get everyone under a single caste is the best chance the galaxy has for "The greater good" they have faith in the ethereals so they assume everyone else should too.
So they are race blind, to a point. Afterall they cant be too utopian, they are entitled to some selfishness no? The ethereals are in charge not cause they are tau but cause they are the ethereals if that makes any sense? at least thats how the other races will see it. And whatever they are doing its sorta working they did save the Tau so I can see why they have such faith in them.

Put this way? I think "Your good but not as good as the ethereals" Is much more progressive than "Die Xenos scum! For the Empra!"

I don't think it's quite so simple as racism only at the top. It's actually more like racism at the core. The basic principle of the Empire is Tau first, non-Tau maybe second if it's convenient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait you just posted the same thing from last page?

Manchu wrote:
I don't think it's quite so simple as racism only at the top. It's actually more like racism at the core. The basic principle of the Empire is Tau first, non-Tau maybe second if it's convenient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait you just posted the same thing from last page?

I see it as you are only as Tau as your beliefs so those who rebel against tau occupation are basically worthless and those who are the most dedicated to there vision slowly earn more and more respect. At least thats what i gleam from reading about them. Those who are equal must rival the faith of the Tau in dedication. Really its "Your good if you embrace our culture and way of thinking" so an Ork even if it becomes a member of the Tau would probably never fully gain there trust by its very nature and will always be a tool to be deployed and nothing else, but a human who is basically a tau in all but race will get to be able to rise and fall in the ranks under the ethereals ( usually stuck as fire cast or builders ) and those who rebel or will not adhere get starilized and ignored.
Thats what I see anyway, it comes up over and over how those who are dedicated and match there vision gain favor and those who do not are cast aside or used. You seem to be judged on the degree that you bow your head.
Which isnt a good thing but its not a super evil thing either. Prisoners get treated good ( even if it is just to indoctrinate them later ) and if i am choosing betwene starilization or getting my entire planet glassed cause the mutant population got a bit too high? ( Imperium style ) Than sign me up for some of that ethereal worship.

They just seem to believe that the Tau are the only ones who can lead the galaxy toward a better future ( which if i am being fair to them, it was there idea so let them have that )




Yes i did repost by accdent I thought it didnt post when it did, i just realized that myself.


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 Quickjager wrote:
feth THE TAU 8TH EDITION ANNOUNCED BOYS!!!

Oh? ... i just started playing, what does that mean? Big changes?

 DizzyStorey wrote:
This whole "They aren't actually nerds! They just call themselves nerds" Is called elitism and if anything I think nerds nowadays have become the bullies in so many cases, especially involving racism and sexism within the nerd communities, allegations of feminists in gaming getting rape threats and death threats and people being chased out of chatrooms cause they are pinned as a "Fake gamer girl" Is just... well its horrible, and by no means are nerds these victims we hear people say they are.

I'm sorry Manchu, but that does sound a heck of a lot like elitism to me, and I will agree wholeheartedly with DizzyStorey in this case. That's without touching on the hate that 'fake gamer girls' get which is another issue I could get very, very passionate about.

If there's one thing the world in general doesn't need, it's more people being sh*tty to each other for whatever reason. Now that goes both ways. From people who are just now discovering how damn cool all this geek stuff is, and from people who are already into this geek stuff and feeling threatened by the new people coming in.

It's sh*tty if the new folk are nasty to the old guard (very few of them are).

It's sh*tty if the old guard are nasty to the new folk (very few of them are).

All of it needs to stop regardless. It's just pointless.

 DizzyStorey wrote:
Put this way? I think "Your good but not as good as the ethereals" Is much more progressive than "Die Xenos scum! For the Empra!"

You know, I don't know. I actually think that the Tau might be just as bad as the Imperium despite appearances. At least in the Imperium there is the possibility of freedom to move within social ranks (it's suggested that in the billions of worlds of the Imperium there are many worlds that we would consider somewhat normal). It's backwards and dystopian, but with the Tau you have a fantastic level of social discrimination between what I've come to understand as separate subspecies of the same race.

So, the Tau are space-racists to their own people, and the Imperium don't care what your race is so long as you're the same species. Sounds like the Imperium is one step up on the progressive scale to me

Although that is purely my impression, and probably a bit of an ulterior motive in wanting Tau to be as grimdark as possible to fit into the setting better.

DizzyStorey wrote:
Put this way? I think "Your good but not as good as the ethereals" Is much more progressive than "Die Xenos scum! For the Empra!"

HERESY!

GodDamUser wrote:[Why not both

Sure. The Tau could use a few more skulls and bling on their machines, though. Especially gold.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 DizzyStorey wrote:
This whole "They aren't actually nerds! They just call themselves nerds" Is called elitism and if anything I think nerds nowadays have become the bullies in so many cases, especially involving racism and sexism within the nerd communities, allegations of feminists in gaming getting rape threats and death threats and people being chased out of chatrooms cause they are pinned as a "Fake gamer girl" Is just... well its horrible, and by no means are nerds these victims we hear people say they are.

I'm sorry Manchu, but that does sound a heck of a lot like elitism to me, and I will agree wholeheartedly with DizzyStorey in this case. That's without touching on the hate that 'fake gamer girls' get which is another issue I could get very, very passionate about.

If there's one thing the world in general doesn't need, it's more people being sh*tty to each other for whatever reason. Now that goes both ways. From people who are just now discovering how damn cool all this geek stuff is, and from people who are already into this geek stuff and feeling threatened by the new people coming in.

It's sh*tty if the new folk are nasty to the old guard (very few of them are).

It's sh*tty if the old guard are nasty to the new folk (very few of them are).

All of it needs to stop regardless. It's just pointless.

 DizzyStorey wrote:
Put this way? I think "Your good but not as good as the ethereals" Is much more progressive than "Die Xenos scum! For the Empra!"

You know, I don't know. I actually think that the Tau might be just as bad as the Imperium despite appearances. At least in the Imperium there is the possibility of freedom to move within social ranks (it's suggested that in the billions of worlds of the Imperium there are many worlds that we would consider somewhat normal). It's backwards and dystopian, but with the Tau you have a fantastic level of social discrimination between what I've come to understand as separate subspecies of the same race.

So, the Tau are space-racists to their own people, and the Imperium don't care what your race is so long as you're the same species. Sounds like the Imperium is one step up on the progressive scale to me

Although that is purely my impression, and probably a bit of an ulterior motive in wanting Tau to be as grimdark as possible to fit into the setting better.

^ ^ Thank you for the support again it makes me feel better..



And I dunno tell that to some random peasant born in the mines on some hiveworld. I am sure they will have the chance to reach the hights of the lords of terra, but most likely if you are 99% of the trillions upon trillions upton trillions of humans born on one of the billions upon billions of planets you are going to live and die in some slave labor cespit under the thumb of some lord. That is if you are not drafted to go be canon fodder for a tyranid swarm or getting your brain scooped out and turned into a servitor. ( even that probably is only a 1% chance of escaping there hellish existence )
Most of the higher ranks are as bad as the lower ranks, having your eyes replaced with tubes connected to your brain to power some horrible weapon or being fused into a space ship... Humans of the imperium live hellish short lives and some planets even employ caste systems of there own enacting every possible local government over billions of planets.

At least with the Tau there is some purpose and security, even if you are surving a higher caste.

 DizzyStorey wrote:
At least with the Tau there is some purpose and security, even if you are serving a higher caste.

Or you'll be castrated, tossed into the front lines with inadequate provisions to defend a race that ultimately believes you are inferior and will most likely suffer from the same fate as Humanity pre-DAoT but has no Emperor to save them.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 DizzyStorey wrote:
At least with the Tau there is some purpose and security, even if you are serving a higher caste.

Or you'll be castrated, tossed into the front lines with inadequate provisions to defend a race that ultimately believes you are inferior and will most likely suffer from the same fate as Humanity pre-DAoT but has no Emperor to save them.

As far as I can tell that is a punishment for rebellion, to breed only the most loyal and good temperment of the humanstock. Not good behavior.. but better than being glassed by the space marines for some petty reason.
"oops.. not enough of you are worshiping god right, blowing up the planet now"

According to one definition, nerds are people who take the elitist position that "you aren't good enough to like what they like." They call themselves nerds as a matter of vanity. According to another definition, nerds are people criticized because they like something the "wrong way" (e.g., too intensely). They are called nerds by others as a slur. ITT, we have actual (as opposed to alleged/anecdotal) examples of the latter but none of the former. That's worth thinking about.

- - - - -

The argument in favor of the Tau seems to be, at least they give you a choice. But keep in mind that this "choice" is - serve or die. The Tau sweeten the deal by offering material comfort and self-affirming propaganda. But underneath the veneer of mercy is the cold reality of slavery on pain of extermination.

To me, this doesn't amount to the Tau having the moral high ground. It is just another example of their lack of experience. The Imperium's murderous hatred of xenos did not begin as a mindless prejudice. The Emperor rationally decided that large-scale, long-term coexistence with xenos was incompatible with humanity dominating the galaxy.

As we know the Tau were "lucky" to be shielded from the IoM for millennia and continue to be lucky in that now that the IoM knows about the Tau it remains too distracted to bother exterminating them. But the Tau are also lucky in a third way - they are lucky to have run across species early on that they could either dominate (Kroot, Vespid) or exterminate. Now that they have run into humans and Orks, that part of their luck has run out.

In the short term and on a small scale, human prisoners and refugees can be enslaved, brainwashed, and managed like beasts of burden. It is totally understandable that a particular person might prefer this to simply being murdered. But the Ethereals must already understand that humans and orks cannot be dominated as species - and therefore they will eventually have to be exterminated.

It's really not meaningfully different from the IoM's approach when you look at it on larger scales. To make the same point in reverse, perhaps humanity would also give sentient xenos the same "choice" if the human state was as vulnerable and naive as the Tau Empire. Indeed, more isolated groups of humans often perforce coexist with xenos.

 DizzyStorey wrote:
what does that mean? Big changes?

Yes but probably for the better - especially for someone new. I think it will mean the basic ruleset will be streamlined and there will be even more flexibility for creating forces, which seems right up your alley. This is the first time I have been excited about a new edition of 40k for ... nine years? Wow.

Manchu wrote:
According to one definition, nerds are people who take the elitist position that "you aren't good enough to like what they like." They call themselves nerds as a matter of vanity. According to another definition, nerds are people criticized because they like something the "wrong way" (e.g., too intensely). They are called nerds by others as a slur. ITT, we have actual (as opposed to alleged/anecdotal) examples of the latter but none of the former. That's worth thinking about.

Not quite. It's not nerds being defined as people who take the elitist position that "you aren't goof enough to like what they like". More accurate to say that there are members of pretty much every society or culture you can think of who look down on other members who they don't deem to be 'worthy', and are thus elitist. However, that's not quite the whole picture. It's not just the thoughts that someone is not worthy that make something elitist (for instance, someone may have actually proved that they don't really care about geeky stuff, they just do it because it's cool to be a geek now). What makes something elitist is basing that judgement on something that is arbitrary or unrelated to whether they have actually proved themselves to be valuable members of the community.

This is why I am slightly concerned that some of the things you are saying in this thread could be construed as you being elitist, as it would appear that you are looking down on people who are not 'old-guard' geek-types and blaming a lot of the problems we have identified in this thread on the influx of new blood into the culture, purely because they are associated with a minority of unsavoury people who are wearing geekiness like a fashion while still retaining their original prejudices about the people who were geeks before them. I don't think you're actually being elitist, but I am slightly concerned that some of the things you are suggesting could be construed that you are.

I think it's worth stepping away from this conversation at this point, both of us, because it's getting to the point where we might end up saying things that are counterproductive and not really accurate to how we actually feel.

Manchu wrote:
According to one definition, nerds are people who take the elitist position that "you aren't good enough to like what they like." They call themselves nerds as a matter of vanity. According to another definition, nerds are people criticized because they like something the "wrong way" (e.g., too intensely). They are called nerds by others as a slur. ITT, we have actual (as opposed to alleged/anecdotal) examples of the latter but none of the former. That's worth thinking about.

I think this is one of those situations where one can use honestly and without any irony the phrase 'check your privilege.' There is probably a reason for you personally not experiencing the former.

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 DizzyStorey wrote:
At least with the Tau there is some purpose and security, even if you are serving a higher caste.

Or you'll be castrated, tossed into the front lines with inadequate provisions to defend a race that ultimately believes you are inferior and will most likely suffer from the same fate as Humanity pre-DAoT but has no Emperor to save them.

As far as I can tell that is a punishment for rebellion, to breed only the most loyal and good temperment of the humanstock. Not good behavior.. but better than being glassed by the space marines for some petty reason.

The fact that you said "humanstock" in that sentence reaffirms my belief that the Tau are worse that the IoM.

"oops.. not enough of you are worshiping god right, blowing up the planet now"

When those gods happen to be ones that'll make you into a zombie, keep your head as a trophy, literally rape your skull or use it as art or one that'll turn you inside out, yeah... I think I'd glass those planets pretty fast.

@Ynneadwraith

You're trying to police the conversation. Saying "you're not being elitist but your comments could be construed as elitist" means that you could attack me even though you are simultaneously assuring me that you're not attacking me This is either a passive-aggressive attack or a threat. It is also made in bad faith because you are going to have to misconstrue my position to make the attack.

For my part, I plan on sticking to the substance of the conversation. I don't think it matters whether someone holds themselves above others for an arbitrary or non-arbitrary reason - it's the holding themselves above others part that makes them elitist. No one here has posted words to the effect of, You are not worthy to post here or like this IP or participate in this hobby. Now let's try that in reverse; what if I said, this hobby or this forum or this IP is not worthy of me unless my tastes are accomodated? That is elitist.

Take it a step further: any resistence to the accomodation of my taste is racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia, colonialsim, bigotry, elitism, perversion, malice, wrong, and (ultimately) evil. Give me what I want - or - you are scum. This is not the way to join a community. Joining a community is a matter of knocking on the door rather than battering it down. Who batters doors down? Invaders and police.

This discussion so far has been pretty abstract. In real life - as opposed to on the internet, wherebthe opposite is often true - a person who starts by making demands is going to end by being avoided. People generally engage in social hobbies to get away from stress and controversy. Nerdy hobbies like 40k owe a lot to people wanting to escape being bullied and judged.

@Crimson

I didn't say I have never experienced being judged unworthy by elitists. You just assumed that. Maybe because of your privilege.

@Tactical_Spam

"Humanstock" is definitely a telling phrase. And yeah, I think you are referring to the Tau's relative inexperience with Chaos, too - very good point. Like I said, maybe in the early days of the first human space empire, humans also believed that some aliens could be "usefully employed" (read enslaved) ... maybe because they encountered them early on instead of Orks or Daemoms. But the Emperor knew what was really lurking out there and that's why IoM orthodoxy regarding xenos diplomacy is the way it is.

Manchu wrote:
People generally engage in social hobbies to get away from stress and controversy. Nerdy hobbies like 40k owe a lot to people wanting to escape being bullied and judged.

Exactly. Escape things like sexism. So it is kinda sad to be confronted with 'no girls can't do that' even in this fictional setting. And then being judged and called a troll when asking for equal representation.

That's assuming there's only 1 way sexism outside of nerdom.

Plus, there has never been a time when there weren't girls who are also nerds or geeks. If anything has changed on those grounds, it's just more OK nowadays for guys and girls to nerd out over the same IPs, which is great.

Hey man, i wasn't trying to police the conversation or anything like that I was just pointing out that i think some of the points your suggesting mught be misconstrued as elitism. Not policing anything, just in a very friendly manner suggesting that your comments might be coming off as something that you don't mean them to!

No passive-agressiveness at all! Just a friendly pointing out rather than actually saying anything becauee i don't want to be seen as calling you out or anything because you dont deserve or warrant that

I want to say, i don't think you're an elitist, and i'm not saying that you are either. Im just saying that a couple of things you've been assetting could be construed (or misconstrued, that works too) as elitism, and as someone who has a lot of respect for you i don't want people to think that

It's not an attack it's just that a couple of the comparisons posted between 'old guard type' geeks and 'new blood type geeks where the latter is suggested to be inferior to the former isn't what i think you're trying to get across

For the record, i get your point. There is animosity that is present because the newfound popularity of geek culture has brought in people who in times past (and even now) treated geeky people badly. I understand that is the point that you are making. I'm just urging you to make sure that the comments being posted are absolutely clear that that's the point you're making and that you're not suggesting that there is any sort of elitism in yourself as an old-guard geek towards new blood coming in at the same time as these people who don't deserve our respect because they're sh*tty people.

I know that this is not what you are suggesting. I just really really don't want what you're saying in this discussion where things are being looked at more closely than in any other discussion i've participated in to be misconstrued as something that isn't what you think.

I hope that's explained it!

I don't agree with the "old guard" versus "new blood" distinction you introduced. DizzyStorey posted that people "self-identify" as nerds - apparently for the purpose of excluding non-nerds. I remember the reverse - you got excluded by being called a nerd. Maybe kids today call you something other than "nerd" to exclude you. But I am pretty sure it still happens. And the excluded people still find their way to the same nerdy hobbies that nerds in the past did. I just take issue with the way people act when they "get here." Like I said, do they knock on the door or try to batter it down.

As far as "new blood" ... AFAIK Dakka Dakka is like 99% new blood (including me) but that might be because I consider "old guard" to mean something more than just having been a gamer for longer. If you want to see what I mean by "old guard" try reading The Miniatures Page or Lead Adventure (they are great forums by the way). The actual old guard - most people call it "grognard" - mindset is more about DIY whereas us "new bloods" tend to like our games "out of the box" ... something GW has catered to for a long time now. And because this is mostly a 40k site, that "new blood" mentality seems to be stronger here.

Manchu wrote:
I don't agree with the "old guard" versus "new blood" distinction you introduced. DizzyStorey posted that people "self-identify" as nerds - apparently for the purpose of excluding non-nerds. I remember the reverse - you got excluded by being called a nerd. Maybe kids today call you something other than "nerd" to exclude you. But I am pretty sure it still happens. And the excluded people still find their way to the same nerdy hobbies that nerds in the past did. I just take issue with the way people act when they "get here." Like I said, do they knock on the door or try to batter it down.

As far as "new blood" ... AFAIK Dakka Dakka is like 99% new blood (including me) but that might be because I consider "old guard" to mean something more than just having been a gamer for longer. If you want to see what I mean by "old guard" try reading The Miniatures Page or Lead Adventure (they are great forums by the way). The actual old guard - most people call it "grognard" - mindset is more about DIY whereas us "new bloods" tend to like our games "out of the box" ... something GW has catered to for a long time now. And because this is mostly a 40k site, that "new blood" mentality seems to be stronger here.

Yeah I know you don't agree with the 'old guard vs new blood' thing that's why I was concerned that some of your comments might be misconstrued as pointing in that direction, cos I genuinely think you're a decent person and wouldn't want that.

I hope I can be really frank without causing offence, but the reason I bring it up is because right at the start when we first started discussing, you assumed I might be a 'new blood' type who was just coming into the discussion to push an agenda based on the fact that I was suggesting that 'geekiness' should be about inclusiveness (which I still believe to be the case), which coloured your perception of me at that point. That was cleared up, but from there we've got further into a discussion where on a number of occasions you've commented suggesting that a lot of the animosity between people in this thread could have been caused by the above perception (new folks coming in, trying to 'mainstream' 40k).

Now, I absolutely know that that's not what you were going for, and I really don't want anyone else thinking that of you because I genuinely think you're a decent bloke (if you are a bloke! I shouldn't assume...) with his head screwed on straight I just get the sinking feeling that if we carry on this discussion much further without any sort of solid empirical evidence to back up our hypotheses that we'll slip back into the general melee of discussion we had early on in this thread which will just cause a whole lot of hurt and misunderstanding

I feel like we've both made fairly reasoned arguments in the absence of much empirical data, and now is a pretty good time to wrap things up until more new info comes in (lest we end up arguing our points further to the point that we're so adamant about them that we say stuff that suggests something other than what we actually mean).

 Crimson wrote:

Manchu wrote:
People generally engage in social hobbies to get away from stress and controversy. Nerdy hobbies like 40k owe a lot to people wanting to escape being bullied and judged.

Exactly. Escape things like sexism. So it is kinda sad to be confronted with 'no girls can't do that' even in this fictional setting. And then being judged and called a troll when asking for equal representation.

Now, for reasons I've explained in the first part of this comment I've taken a step back from these discussions, but I have to just mention that this comment perfectly sums up my viewpoint on this.

I will say that for me it's not a condemnation of people in any way, or a calling out of people, or saying that geek/nerd culture is an outlier for having this. It's something that is present in damn near every single layer of society, and all that needs to happen at any layer is for people to be aware of it and try and do something to stop themselves being affected by it. It may seem silly or insignificant, or judgemental and elitist, but all it's really about is just being nice to people rather than not nice in a completely unintentional way.

Hell, the ideal mid-point between all of this discussion is for the next time femmarines comes up to say 'the fluff doesn't support it as it states that Astartes are male, but that's pretty gender-biased in our modern society so if you want to bend that fluff for your own personal army I'm cool with that' Again I want to stress that I'm not calling out anyone who didn't say that, or suggesting that you should feel bad, or anything like that. It's just something to think about if you want to be a nicer person to other people as I know from my own personal experience that there's things I do unconsciously that I would not want to do if I was aware of them, and only by having them suggested to me have I come to realise that I've been doing them.

 Bobthehero wrote:
That's assuming there's only 1 way sexism outside of nerdom.

Although I don't think you're correct in the assumption that Crimson is assuming there's only 1 type of sexism outside of nerdom, you do bring up an important point. Gender-bias does in fact happen in both directions. Arguing that it doesn't is just a patent falsehood. Unfortunately, in our society the vast majority of gender-bias happens from men towards women, or from masculine things towards feminine things, for a whole host of historical and cultural reasons.

Either way, regardless of which discrimination people are fleeing from, I don't expect to find it here. I can guarantee you that I would be exploring in exactly the same detail something I suspected could be gender-biased towards men. Not because I'm a crusader of any sort. Just because I really don't like people being sh*tty to each other whatever the reason, especially if it's completely unintentional. The world just does not need more of that.

Manchu wrote:
Plus, there has never been a time when there weren't girls who are also nerds or geeks. If anything has changed on those grounds, it's just more OK nowadays for guys and girls to nerd out over the same IPs, which is great.

This is true and very, very good

However, just because something is the best it has ever been does not mean that it is fixed or not a problem that needs to be explored wherever it might be present.

Manchu wrote:
According to one definition, nerds are people who take the elitist position that "you aren't good enough to like what they like." They call themselves nerds as a matter of vanity. According to another definition, nerds are people criticized because they like something the "wrong way" (e.g., too intensely). They are called nerds by others as a slur. ITT, we have actual (as opposed to alleged/anecdotal) examples of the latter but none of the former. That's worth thinking about.

- - - - -

The argument in favor of the Tau seems to be, at least they give you a choice. But keep in mind that this "choice" is - serve or die. The Tau sweeten the deal by offering material comfort and self-affirming propaganda. But underneath the veneer of mercy is the cold reality of slavery on pain of extermination.

To me, this doesn't amount to the Tau having the moral high ground. It is just another example of their lack of experience. The Imperium's murderous hatred of xenos did not begin as a mindless prejudice. The Emperor rationally decided that large-scale, long-term coexistence with xenos was incompatible with humanity dominating the galaxy.

As we know the Tau were "lucky" to be shielded from the IoM for millennia and continue to be lucky in that now that the IoM knows about the Tau it remains too distracted to bother exterminating them. But the Tau are also lucky in a third way - they are lucky to have run across species early on that they could either dominate (Kroot, Vespid) or exterminate. Now that they have run into humans and Orks, that part of their luck has run out.

In the short term and on a small scale, human prisoners and refugees can be enslaved, brainwashed, and managed like beasts of burden. It is totally understandable that a particular person might prefer this to simply being murdered. But the Ethereals must already understand that humans and orks cannot be dominated as species - and therefore they will eventually have to be exterminated.

It's really not meaningfully different from the IoM's approach when you look at it on larger scales. To make the same point in reverse, perhaps humanity would also give sentient xenos the same "choice" if the human state was as vulnerable and naive as the Tau Empire. Indeed, more isolated groups of humans often perforce coexist with xenos.

 DizzyStorey wrote:
what does that mean? Big changes?

Yes but probably for the better - especially for someone new. I think it will mean the basic ruleset will be streamlined and there will be even more flexibility for creating forces, which seems right up your alley. This is the first time I have been excited about a new edition of 40k for ... nine years? Wow.

Oh? Also some new fluff and retcons so were gunna see some big changes? I know when D&D changes things its often night and day, a huge massive deal that almost re-writes its worlds.

Has anyone heard the news from adepticon about teasers for the new 40k ruleset?

This was posted over on TDC:

1. Movement stat is coming back.

2. Those who charge strike first.

3. Armour/save modifiers are coming back. Every weapon in your army will have its place.

4. Three ways to play like AOS.

5. Gain Command points and bonuses from playing the army how it is presented in the "Fluff".

6. Morale change to more like Demonic instability, or Battleshock if you will. no more all or nothing sweeping advances or whole unit running from shooting losses.

What anything would mean for the fluff I don't know! I do fear that it will end up closer and closer to 'herohammer' considering the success that Gathering Storm has had, which moves further away from the gritty, colossal scope and size grimdark universe we've come to know.

I don't know about anyone else, but telling stories through the eyes of a select few ultra-special characters makes the universe seem somehow...smaller...to me. Like it's only really the actions of a handful of people that actually affect anything, and the struggles of the billions of others defending (or attacking) their portion of the galaxy are inconsequential.

Might just be me on that though! Tricky to tell...

@DizzyStorey

In the case of D&D, there are multiple official settings for the game. The Forgotten Realms has been the most prominent for the past three editions and is currently the default setting of the game. Not much about the settings change between editions with the major exception of the transition from 3.5 to 4E. The Forgotten Realms changed tremendously but there were also cosmological changes that applied across all of the settings. Then, in the transition between 4 and 5E, most of that changed back.

With 40k, transition from one edition to another has not been the occasion for major changes to the setting for a long time. There are two main reasons why some people are expecting big fluff changes with 8E. First, GW recently completely transformed its fantasy setting at the same time as radically changing the game (to be more like 40k actually). Second, nothing much happened in the 40k setting for a long time but recently there have been some big, unexpected changes - such as one of the loyalist Primarchs "waking up" from a 10,000 year long nap.

@Ynneadwraith

I can see what you mean - and yes I do think there is a tension between mainstream entitlement (the notion that all media must conform to "my tastes") and the existing fanbase of an IP. You may recall my simple explanation that fans don't like retcons precisely because they are fans. This is along the same line as the knock versus batter theme.

Really agree about a setting feeling smaller the more the big stories seem to be about a handful of people. This is the classic problem with Star Wars. I mean, we have this story about Cadia ... but it doesn't feel like a story about the Imperial Guard.

The Primarc Guiliman waking up could mean big changes fort he world! Such as a potential war betwene the ultra marines and the imperium!
A force of good and justice in the world!
Major tinkering with the gene-seed cause ya know... God king Emperer aint no god to a Primearch just a great man and his father.
Possible co-operation with Xenos ( which Guilliman was known to be quite tolerent of )
And ya know... some sanity returning to the world of man. Infact id go as far as to say this is probably going to be the plot of 8th edition and the reason we need all new Codexes. And gives them an excuse to change things and muck around with the status quo.