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As for modelling the female marines, I really don't think you necessarily need to do anything beyond some head swaps.Marine power armour is quite bulky, and there is little reason for gender specific alterations. Perhaps some characters could have more form fitting artificer armours if one would wish to make their gender more explicit. Something similar to BA muscle cuirasses.
But you understand that your inability to see beyond that prejudice is your issue, right? I don't mean that in a snarky way. I think starting from faulty premises is a major problem here. Generally, people who like X don't want X to be retconned. It doesn't have to be political at all.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I'd like to hear your take on why that particular piece of fluff is a no-go despite the fact that it's relatively minor compared to other stuff that is routinely bent and broken.
I'm hesitant to try - but I trust you are asking in good faith. It's a mistake to pretend we are discussing this in a vacuum. The context is, this is a baggage issue - and that is widely known. In fact, OP first brought the subject up on Dakka Dakka for that specific reason. It's straight-up poking the bear. And some people respond to it very poorly. One example of that is doubling down on the rules of whatever fictional magic that makes Space Marines possible in the make pretend world. But the specific form of the response is not that important - the reason why it provokes such negative responses is at the heart of your question. And it's not because 40k fans are misogynists - unironically, it's because 40k fans resent being accused (directly or indirectly) of misogyny - especially because of the IP/hobby they like and which they enjoy as a means of escaping from the anxieties of, for example, politicized rants. That, specifically, is why you get responses like "don't drag politics into this."
I-I do have an answer for why this is hated and not other things... People aren't consciously being sexist, infact some might not even realize why they feel the way they do. But there has been this underlining sexist tones to nerd culture for a while now. I dont know when it started but its not just present here. When people questioned Quiets design in the new metal gear solid. Everyone freaked out! Or the mechanic girl in Final Fantasy 15. Theres this tone that any comment on womans clothing, design or inclusion is a negative thing. besides being an already hostile environment with "Fake gamer girl" inquisitions trying to weed out the reals from the fakes and constant anger over the inclusion of more veriaty of female characters ( Old, muscular, ugly, overweight, giant, same as the men variety ) people get put on edge or uncomfortable. And why i cant actually say. I have no idea when it started or why its present. you would thin that more Variety and choice would be nothing but a good thing.
And no its not me trying to be political or anything its just observation on how fandoms and communities behave and react on average to criticism. There are bad apples in every group and I hear yeah. I just find that the hostilities iv faced when trying to get into many of these hobbies range from excessive unwanted attention to downright contempt...
So no i dont know why this is more infuriating or upsetting than any other minor fluff alterations and yes it does make me not want to take part in communities but. I do it anyway cause I have friends in here like you who are really nice and make me feel more comfortable ^ _ ^ But id be lieing if i said it didnt at times make the hobby unpleasent with the amount of resistance I am met with over the simple sharing of ideas.
But i dont think its anyones fault, i think that there is something thats cultivating this aversion to females within the community. When I was a kid there wasnt this fear of change we have now.
Anyway thank you so much for being a voice of reason in this forum. Its made the difference between me staying or leaving having a sizably few people supporting me, If i had just simply been crushed under a mountain of anger and resistance than id probably had left by now, but Iv met 4 people here that are now really close friends! And a few others who I hope to become friends with in the future!
Thankyou that's a very frank, brave and I feel astute explanation for why this is such a big deal.
The general uptightness of people (mainly dudes) among various geeky things about issues regarding the perception of women. It's something I've noticed too, and I'm a dude. People get very het up about that and it's a shame, because I was under the impression that geeky things were about bringing other people into this brilliant world you're a part of.
Yet, here we have someone who shares the same interests as us very nearly hounded out of the forum because people feel so strongly about something that makes no damn sense. Can people not see that that's just a really sh*tty way to behave?
Lets treat this as a proper debate shall we? Something approaching scientific.
Here we have an explanation for why some (not even the majority) of this community feel disproportionately strongly about allowing women to be Marines. Can anyone else offer another explanation that holds up to scrutiny?
And please, I beg you, before anyone responds with a knee-jerk reaction. Please take a moment to think about why they might feel that way. Sexism is really insidious, and I'm damn certain I'm not free of it.
So, tell me. Why is it that you feel so strongly about not having female Space Marines?
Manchu wrote: And it's not because 40k fans are misogynists - unironically, it's because 40k fans resent being accused (directly or indirectly) of misogyny - especially because of the IP/hobby they like and which they enjoy as a means of escaping from the anxieties of, for example, politicized rants. That, specifically, is why you get responses like "don't drag politics into this."
The same gak always happens when anyone asks for representation in any media. "Don't bring politics into the video games, I just want to play Overwatch and not to be reminded that gays exist!"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/20 20:10:25
Melissia wrote: Manchu, what's your opinion on the cybernetics suggestion I gave earlier?
Generally, I don't think there needs to be a specific "alternative magic" to justify anybody's femarine hobby project. It's all just magic anyway. Cybernetic magic is as good as genetic magic (mixed with magic magic). It's totally up to the person doing the project, whatever appeals to them most. As far as the IP itself goes, the Mechanicum obviously practices extreme cybernetic augmentation. So one could easily imagine some all-female sect of warriors with extremely close ties to a forge world. Maybe some kind of auxilliary Skitarii?
Manchu wrote: To clarify, I'm going to assume you understand my explanation that (1) I like the 40k setting as it is and (2) that's why I think retconning it requires a damn good reason. So let me give you an example of what I consider a damn good reason: Newcrons! IMO Oldcrons were a conceptual dead end because they were so one-dimensional and indistinct. Unfortunately, their existing fluff was pretty comprehensive (if also very weak) so there wasn't room to "explain" personality into it. I understand that the former concept has its own aesthetic strengths. But that wasn't going to support developing the faction, which is probably one of the reasons crons were neglected for so long.
I'd say that 8 (and counting) pages of debate where one side can't justify their position beyond 'I like it that way' is a damn good reason to retcon something.
Are you arguing for or against Femarines right now? Because I just read the last 8 pages and I can tell you who has been using "I like it that way" as a justification.
As retcons go, it's utterly and pitifully small. Below the level that is almost continually undertaken by GW every time the output another piece of fluff. We're not even talking about saying 'oh yeah, half of the Ultramarines are women'. We're just saying that it is possible to make Astartes modifications work with women, (which is utterly ludicrous that we have to justify that so strongly when we are perfectly happy to wave past any number of more drastic fluff bending).
Why is it that 'no female Space Marines' is felt to be so integral to the fabric of the 40k universe that people feel it's a bad retcon to undo it.
Do you like redacting every book that contains Astartes? Because I sure do!
Please, I'd like an answer to that. Someone please do some genuine self-reflection and try to come up with a reason they feel so strongly about it. What does it actually affect about your life, or your faction, or your dudes?
I'm going out on a limb and saying at this point you're trolling because Smudge has debated you in depth about this. Either that or reading comprehension is really hard.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I was under the impression that geeky things were about bringing other people into this brilliant world you're a part of.
"In my day," haha I always wanted to begin a sentence that way, being a geek was about the reverse - being excluded for whatever reason. And geeky stuff was a refuge from the day-to-day experience of being an outcast. This is why geeky stuff tends to be escapist.
Nowadays, geek is chic. I guess this is what's called "cultural appropriation" in other contexts. And just like in other contexts, it creates resentment. I'd also compare it to gentrification: a new group* moving in ("colonizing") and constructively evicting the previous occupants. It's like people are discovering 40k and saying, hey this is really cool - except actually this and this and this need to be changed around so it can be more appealing to me and feth off to whoever liked it before, because that doesn't cater to meeeeeee.
*Want to be very, very clear that by "new group" I don't mean women. There have always been girl geeks and girl gamers.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/03/20 20:27:04
But you understand that your inability to see beyond that prejudice is your issue, right? I don't mean that in a snarky way. I think starting from faulty premises is a major problem here. Generally, people who like X don't want X to be retconned. It doesn't have to be political at all.
Yeah I agree, I may be being blinded by my own opinions on this. That's part of the reason why I've asked time and time again through this thread for someone to provide an explanation of why I'm wrong in my assertion that it's motivated by underlying sexism regarding 'girls not being allowed in the club'.
Thankyou for actually providing one potential explanation: people who like X don't want X to be retconned.
Lets look at that a little closer.
Why do people feel so strongly about this particular piece of fluff in particular that they will fight tooth and nail against someone who's wanting to bend it for their own enjoyment only?
We're not talking about a retcon. We're talking about routine bending of fluff that occurs on a regular basis for everything except female Space Marines.
Why might that be?
Ynneadwraith wrote: I'd like to hear your take on why that particular piece of fluff is a no-go despite the fact that it's relatively minor compared to other stuff that is routinely bent and broken.
I'm hesitant to try - but I trust you are asking in good faith. It's a mistake to pretend we are discussing this in a vacuum. The context is, this is a baggage issue - and that is widely known. In fact, OP first brought the subject up on Dakka Dakka for that specific reason. It's straight-up poking the bear. And some people respond to it very poorly. One example of that is doubling down on the rules of whatever fictional magic that makes Space Marines possible in the make pretend world. But the specific form of the response is not that important - the reason why it provokes such negative responses is at the heart of your question. And it's not because 40k fans are misogynists - unironically, it's because 40k fans resent being accused (directly or indirectly) of misogyny - especially because of the IP/hobby they like and which they enjoy as a means of escaping from the anxieties of, for example, politicized rants. That, specifically, is why you get responses like "don't drag politics into this."
You're absolutely right this is a baggage issue, but my main thought process is 'why are people so het up about this that it's a baggage issue?'.
I'll agree that people don't like being accused of being misogynistic, but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable to let something that is only really adequately explained through misogyny go unchallenged. There shouldn't be a 'bear' to poke in the first place.
We have a member of this community who feels both hounded and attacked for wanting to do something that she should be allowed to do by the understanding that you can bend fluff in 40k to make your dudes.
Yet, for some reason, a large number of this community feels that this particular piece of fluff is immutable, and cannot describe to me why that might be using any sort of criteria or logical process that stands up to closer inspection.
Melissia wrote: To be fair, Manchu and I have had plenty of debates. And I respect Manchu's ability to talk about heated topics without losing his head (actually, I think that's pretty much a requirement of being a mod come to think of it)
I respect Manchu as well. I might disagree with him but I at least respect him.
Ynneadwraith wrote: something that is only really adequately explained through misogyny go unchallenged
But this is just another thing that you have already decided. :(
Ynneadwraith wrote: We have a member of this community who feels both hounded and attacked for wanting to do something that she should be allowed to do by the understanding that you can bend fluff in 40k to make your dudes.
Yeah the idea of policing someone else's personal army project is definitely weird. But is that what's happening? I think you might also be just assuming that. What I see, what I have seen countless times, is someone come to a 40k Background board looking for the opinions from other 40k fans about how a personal idea does or does not fit into the established setting. I don't think people are posting here to be reminded that they are free to do whatever they want with their own toy soldiers.
DizzyStorey wrote: I might disagree with him but I at least respect him.
Aw you guys the feeling is def mutual.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 20:25:28
But yeah. If I go onto another forum. Who here can garentee me if I suggest a all male group of sisters of battle that it will be met with fury and scorn?
Or a all gorilla chapter "A space marine stranded on a jungle world populated by apes. Using his geneseed he would create a hyper intelligent chapter of apes to help him escape the planet! Now a haratic he takes his newfound army to new worlds and conflicts while escaping inquisition detection. Only 25 of the thousand test subjects servived"
Who here can garentee that it will be met with fury and anger and people passion? Most likely everyone will be helpful and nice and give me pointers on modeling them.
Yeah you are probably right. But there are other examples of "sore topics" when it comes to this hobby - e.g., My Little Pony SM armies. That will get some harsh responses.
I'd say that 8 (and counting) pages of debate where one side can't justify their position beyond 'I like it that way' is a damn good reason to retcon something.
Are you arguing for or against Femarines right now? Because I just read the last 8 pages and I can tell you who has been using "I like it that way" as a justification.
To clarify, I'm arguing for the right of someone to bend the fluff in the same way as is done on a routine basis for other pieces of similar fluff, but for reasons that have yet to be justified adequately explained, is held to be sacrosanct and immune to exception.
As retcons go, it's utterly and pitifully small. Below the level that is almost continually undertaken by GW every time the output another piece of fluff. We're not even talking about saying 'oh yeah, half of the Ultramarines are women'. We're just saying that it is possible to make Astartes modifications work with women, (which is utterly ludicrous that we have to justify that so strongly when we are perfectly happy to wave past any number of more drastic fluff bending).
Why is it that 'no female Space Marines' is felt to be so integral to the fabric of the 40k universe that people feel it's a bad retcon to undo it.
Do you like redacting every book that contains Astartes? Because I sure do!
Why does allowing one Tech Magos to have cracked how to meld Astartes modifications with women. allowing one person to have one army made of female Marines ,mean that you have to redact every book that contains Astartes?
Bending of the fluff occurs on a constant basis as people go about constructing 'their dudes'. Why do people care so much about this as to make it an exception to that widely-used practice?
Please, I'd like an answer to that. Someone please do some genuine self-reflection and try to come up with a reason they feel so strongly about it. What does it actually affect about your life, or your faction, or your dudes?
I'm going out on a limb and saying at this point you're trolling because Smudge has debated you in depth about this. Either that or reading comprehension is really hard.
Please, I'm not trolling. Smudge has debated with me at length about this, but hasn't provided an explanation for why he deems that particular piece of fluff to be so important that they will gladly hound someone out of the community for wanting to bend it for their dudes which in no way at all affects their dudes in the slightest.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I was under the impression that geeky things were about bringing other people into this brilliant world you're a part of.
"In my day," haha I always wanted to begin a sentence that way, being a geek was about the reverse - being excluded for whatever reason. And geeky stuff was a refuge from the day-to-day experience of being an outcast. This is why geeky stuff tends to be escapist.
Nowadays, geek is chic. I guess this is what's called "cultural appropriation" in other contexts. And just like in other contexts, it creates resentment. I'd also compare it to gentrification: a new group moving in ("colonizing") and constructively evicting the previous occupants. It's like people are discovering 40k and saying, hey this is really cool - except actually this and this and this need to be changed around so it can be more appealing to me and feth off to whoever liked it before, because that doesn't cater to meeeeeee.
Hah, that would be fitting
I will also agree with you that 'geekiness' began as a cultural phenomenon as a result of being excluded from other social groups.
So, can you imagine how sh*tty it would feel to be rejected by other social groups, and then also rejected by the people who they should be able to find refuge with? What a genuinely horrible thing to do to someone.
I'll agree with the whole 'geek-is-chic' thing creating resentment, but that's still not an excuse for genuinely sh*tty behaviour. I've been with 40k for a very long time, well since before 'geek-is-chic' is a thing. Please don't assume or imply that I'm part of a new cultural shift that is here to bring the 'mainstream' to our little corner of geekdom, if that's what you were thinking.
I honestly just want to know if people think the ardour with which this one sentence in the fluff is defended is if it isn't underlying sexism. And why they think it is ok to hound a member out of the community for a strength of belief that they can't explain through logic.
Or a all gorilla chapter "A space marine stranded on a jungle world populated by apes. Using his geneseed he would create a hyper intelligent chapter of apes to help him escape the planet! Now a haratic he takes his newfound army to new worlds and conflicts while escaping inquisition detection. Only 25 of the thousand test subjects servived"
Who here can garentee that it will be met with fury and anger and people passion? Most likely everyone will be helpful and nice and give me pointers on modeling them.
Yep. I am absolutely certain that gorilla astartes would be met with way less opposition than female astartes. (I'm not sure what would happen if they were female gorillas, though.)
Or a all gorilla chapter "A space marine stranded on a jungle world populated by apes. Using his geneseed he would create a hyper intelligent chapter of apes to help him escape the planet! Now a haratic he takes his newfound army to new worlds and conflicts while escaping inquisition detection. Only 25 of the thousand test subjects servived"
Who here can garentee that it will be met with fury and anger and people passion? Most likely everyone will be helpful and nice and give me pointers on modeling them.
Yep. I am absolutely certain that gorilla astartes would be met with way less opposition than female astartes. (I'm not sure what would happen if they were female gorillas, though.)
Because it would be a joke army, are you implying that female space marines are by extension a joke?
Ynneadwraith wrote: something that is only really adequately explained through misogyny go unchallenged
But this is just another thing that you have already decided. :(
Please provide me with another explanation that holds up to logical scrutiny.
You can spend forever saying 'but isn't that something that you've just decided' and the answer will always be 'not really, no' as long as someone hasn't provided another explanation that holds water.
Ynneadwraith wrote: We have a member of this community who feels both hounded and attacked for wanting to do something that she should be allowed to do by the understanding that you can bend fluff in 40k to make your dudes.
Yeah the idea of policing someone else's personal army project is definitely weird. But is that what's happening? I think you might also be just assuming that. What I see, what I have seen countless times, is someone come to a 40k Background board looking for the opinions from other 40k fans about how a personal idea does or does not fit into the established setting. I don't think people are posting here to be reminded that they are free to do whatever they want with their own toy soldiers.
I do think there is an element of policing someone else's project here that is absent in other similar threads. Time and time again we've been told that these women can be the same as Astartes, but will never actually be Astartes, without an adequate explanation of why this one particular piece of fluff is so important to people that they'll happily spend 9 pages telling someone that it can't be bent when other things of similar severity can.
DizzyStorey wrote: But yeah. If I go onto another forum. Who here can garentee me if I suggest a all male group of sisters of battle that it will be met with fury and scorn?
Probably the same amount.
Or a all gorilla chapter "A space marine stranded on a jungle world populated by apes. Using his geneseed he would create a hyper intelligent chapter of apes to help him escape the planet! Now a haratic he takes his newfound army to new worlds and conflicts while escaping inquisition detection. Only 25 of the thousand test subjects servived"
Who here can garentee that it will be met with fury and anger and people passion? Most likely everyone will be helpful and nice and give me pointers on modeling them.
That backstory needs work considering that Astartes have to be dead to remove the gene-seed and if he is a heretic, then it doesn't matter because they aren't Imperium-sanctioned members of the Adeptus Astartes. You might as well call them Jokaeros and leave it there.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Manchu wrote: Yeah you are probably right. But there are other examples of "sore topics" when it comes to this hobby - e.g., My Little Pony SM armies. That will get some harsh responses.
True, but all of the other sore topics are difficult to justify in the fluff.
Female Space Marines really isn't difficult to justify in the fluff, but is treated as an impossibility.
Or a all gorilla chapter "A space marine stranded on a jungle world populated by apes. Using his geneseed he would create a hyper intelligent chapter of apes to help him escape the planet! Now a haratic he takes his newfound army to new worlds and conflicts while escaping inquisition detection. Only 25 of the thousand test subjects servived"
Who here can garentee that it will be met with fury and anger and people passion? Most likely everyone will be helpful and nice and give me pointers on modeling them.
Yep. I am absolutely certain that gorilla astartes would be met with way less opposition than female astartes. (I'm not sure what would happen if they were female gorillas, though.)
Because it would be a joke army, are you implying that female space marines are by extension a joke?
This is the third time you've assumed someone means something that they have not stated in their comment. It's not a helpful thing to do in a discussion.
No, they are not implying they think female Marines are a joke. That is something that you have read into their statement.
Ynneadwraith wrote: can you imagine how sh*tty it would feel to be rejected by other social groups, and then also rejected by the people who they should be able to find refuge with? What a genuinely horrible thing to do to someone.
IME the experience of being an outcast results in escaping into a world where you feel like you belong - AND then you police that world very carefully because it is a refuge in a real sense. Have you ever noticed how much geeks love to look down on other geeks (e.g., making fun of LARPers)?
But I thought you were looking for explanations. And yeah I kind of did assume you might be a "colonizer" based on your statement that geeky things are about inclusivity - because you know that is 100% Disney-approved New Wave Geekery. Whereas, the original experience was absolutely about rejection and escapism. But if you did go through being a geek in the old days then you already understand why come some scrap of fictional magic could be (seemingly) irrationally important to a geek - because that's part of a world that's precious to them. It's not that they are maniacally obsessed with that little thing itself; it's that the little thing has become a symbol of an entire experience of being made fun of, being judged, being rejected.
DizzyStorey wrote: But yeah. If I go onto another forum. Who here can garentee me if I suggest a all male group of sisters of battle that it will be met with fury and scorn?
Probably the same amount.
Yes, I would agree with that. If less, only because it is not quite the same beat stick of judgment that the femarine idea has become. Suggesting all-male SoB will absolutely make you look like a troll.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/20 20:47:10
DizzyStorey wrote: But yeah. If I go onto another forum. Who here can garentee me if I suggest a all male group of sisters of battle that it will be met with fury and scorn?
Probably the same amount.
We already have an example on this thread of someone making a thread regarding all-male SoB that has not been met with the same kind of response as female Marines.
Ynneadwraith wrote: The thing is that i genuinely don't believe its disingenuous. 40k encourages you to play around with the fluff and bend it however you please. For instance, i know that exodites are portrayed in the fluff as basically dino-riding amish cowards. For mine, i've completely reinvented what they are to be basically creepy eldar technobarbarians. That's a massive break from the official fluff, but has got nothing but positive comments.
I honestly believe that the idea of female space marines is defended so rigorously, above and beyond other ideas that break fluff in just as major of a way, is indicative of underlying sexism. The fact that this one small statement has taken on an almost gospel-like quality from among the thousands and thousands of other statements seems to me to be motivated by sexism.
Now, I want to clarify. I'm not intending to brand anyone who points out that it breaks fluff as an evil mysoninistic dickbag. It does break fluff. Fair enough. Ask if the poster is aware that it breaks fluff, and if they are but want to do it anyway then fine. 40k specifically allows people to twist fluff to make 'their dudes'.
To be perfectly honest, the original statement is fairly dubious itself. Personally, i think it would have been much better to say that you can have female space marines, but in actuality they look damn near identical to male space marines. Pump anyone with that level of testosterone and biological augmentations and you'd end up with a Space Marine regardless of what you started from. It's not as if theres any sexuality left after their indoctrination anyway.
Being passionnate about this part of the fluff up to the point of refusing any exeption to the rule is indeed rather strange.
As an extra point, no one ever shat a brick when I decided to create the Bortherhood of Thor, the male Sisters of Battle. The response was actually rather positive and they thought it made sense even if the fluff states that Ecclesiarchy cannot maintain men under arms wich is the reason why Sisters are sisters in the first place. I simply found/created another loophole. I do think that it wnet well, because SoB are unpopular and largely unknown. Very few people could tell why Sisters were all women from a fluff point of view. Nobody discuss the monogender nature of the Sisterhood because to few people are interested in the lore of this army. Every aspect of the Space Marines are debated from their size, their age, the "real" power of their guns, the exact size of their Chapter, their tactics, their greatest heroes etc.
Women cannot be Space Marines can have its loopholes. These slightly, but tolerated abhuman women can because of "insert pseudoscience here". What about this slightly heretical Chapter found a way thanks to this xeno technology. As you can see, the general rule can remain, but be amended for exception.
Being passionnate about this part of the fluff up to the point of refusing any exeption to the rule is indeed rather strange.
Nothing of the sort Ynnead my point was very relevant, if you're taking female space marines as a joke army then there is no point to this discussion. Which means this might have been a actual waste of time
I wasn't aware you were capable of reading into statements like that given past posts.
EDIT: Also going into post history I dont see anything about all male SoB army. I believe it was just a example.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 20:51:27
Ynneadwraith wrote: Please provide me with another explanation that holds up to logical scrutiny.
Again, it's the wrong question. "Why shouldn't the setting be retconned?" Well, because there are tons of people who like it. The relevant question is, why should it be retconned. I think you are working from the unspoken line of argument that, the setting should be changed because it is sexist and therefore resistance to change would itself logically be sexist. I'm just pointing out that all of this hinges on a certain prejudice - that the setting or at least this particular element is in fact sexist - and obviously by sexist, we mean something beyond the purely technical. But where's the demonstration that this is true?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 21:01:45
Ynneadwraith wrote: can you imagine how sh*tty it would feel to be rejected by other social groups, and then also rejected by the people who they should be able to find refuge with? What a genuinely horrible thing to do to someone.
IME the experience of being an outcast results in escaping into a world where you feel like you belong - AND then you police that world very carefully because it is a refuge in a real sense. Have you ever noticed how much geeks love to look down on other geeks (e.g., making fun of LARPers)?
Yeah I have, and I feel that is really crappy behaviour that should be challenged wherever possible. It just needlessly makes other people's lives worse, which is inexcusable.
But I thought you were looking for explanations. And yeah I kind of did assume you might be a "colonizer" based on your statement that geeky things are about inclusivity - because you know that is 100% Disney-approved New Wave Geekery. Whereas, the original experience was absolutely about rejection and escapism. But if you did go through being a geek in the old days then you already understand why come some scrap of fictional magic could be (seemingly) irrationally important to a geek - because that's part of a world that's precious to them. It's not that they are maniacally obsessed with that little thing itself; it's that the little thing has become a symbol of an entire experience of being made fun of, being judged, being rejected.
That's a very thoughtful response, and I'm definitely an old-guard geek I just feel very, very strongly that people shouldn't be sh*tty to other people. I had sort of assumed that, similar to my experience, experiencing rejection from other social groups would make people feel really strongly that they wouldn't want to do the same thing to other people.
You've also provided as close as we've come so far to an explanation that isn't from DizzyStorey. Unfortunately, it's only half of the story.
Why is it that that particular piece of fluff has become symbolic to the point where they'd happily be nasty and dismissive to another person, which is flat-out unacceptable behaviour.
Does allowing one person to bend that piece of fluff for their own purposes affect anything about anyone else's army? Just because her Magos has found out how to make female Marines, doesn't mean that anyone else in the galaxy has, so literally nothing changes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 20:57:08
Looking deeper into the Male Sister of Battle topic, I am lead to believe the poster in question, epronovost; must have posted that onto a forum elsewhere.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Does allowing one person to bend that piece of fluff for their own purposes affect anything about anyone else's army?
None of us have the authority - no one does - to allow someone to bend the fluff with regard to their own personal hobby. None of us need permission from anyone to do it. When you come to a message board, it's not "can I do this?" but rather "you guys know about this setting, does this make sense in your opinion?" Going with that gorilla example, if this was just a one-off thing like that then people tend to be helpful (to a point, depending on the idea; asking about a Chapter founded from Traitor geneseed tends to be met with derision) ... but we are in the sore spot territory with femarines. Even then, if someone posts a P&M thread with a bunch of awesome looking converted femarnies, I think the response would be a lot more positive - because it's credible on its face.
As DizzyStorey pointed out, there is a "credibility" issue here. The geek tribe loves to chant "one of us! one of us!" (going back to your point) - but only after the initiate has proven themselves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/20 21:11:53
Quickjager wrote: Nothing of the sort Ynnead my point was very relevant, if you're taking female space marines as a joke army then there is no point to this discussion. Which means this might have been a actual waste of time
I wasn't aware you were capable of reading into statements like that given past posts.
EDIT: Also going into post history I dont see anything about all male SoB army. I believe it was just a example.
Ah I see, apologies. I think we can safely say that no-one here thinks that female Space Marines are a 'joke army'. What the poster actually stated was that 'a joke army taken seriously would result in less outrage than this army which is perfectly reasonable'.
Ynneadwraith wrote: The thing is that i genuinely don't believe its disingenuous. 40k encourages you to play around with the fluff and bend it however you please. For instance, i know that exodites are portrayed in the fluff as basically dino-riding amish cowards. For mine, i've completely reinvented what they are to be basically creepy eldar technobarbarians. That's a massive break from the official fluff, but has got nothing but positive comments.
I honestly believe that the idea of female space marines is defended so rigorously, above and beyond other ideas that break fluff in just as major of a way, is indicative of underlying sexism. The fact that this one small statement has taken on an almost gospel-like quality from among the thousands and thousands of other statements seems to me to be motivated by sexism.
Now, I want to clarify. I'm not intending to brand anyone who points out that it breaks fluff as an evil mysoninistic dickbag. It does break fluff. Fair enough. Ask if the poster is aware that it breaks fluff, and if they are but want to do it anyway then fine. 40k specifically allows people to twist fluff to make 'their dudes'.
To be perfectly honest, the original statement is fairly dubious itself. Personally, i think it would have been much better to say that you can have female space marines, but in actuality they look damn near identical to male space marines. Pump anyone with that level of testosterone and biological augmentations and you'd end up with a Space Marine regardless of what you started from. It's not as if theres any sexuality left after their indoctrination anyway.
Being passionnate about this part of the fluff up to the point of refusing any exeption to the rule is indeed rather strange.
As an extra point, no one ever shat a brick when I decided to create the Bortherhood of Thor, the male Sisters of Battle. The response was actually rather positive and they thought it made sense even if the fluff states that Ecclesiarchy cannot maintain men under arms wich is the reason why Sisters are sisters in the first place. I simply found/created another loophole. I do think that it wnet well, because SoB are unpopular and largely unknown. Very few people could tell why Sisters were all women from a fluff point of view. Nobody discuss the monogender nature of the Sisterhood because to few people are interested in the lore of this army. Every aspect of the Space Marines are debated from their size, their age, the "real" power of their guns, the exact size of their Chapter, their tactics, their greatest heroes etc.
Women cannot be Space Marines can have its loopholes. These slightly, but tolerated abhuman women can because of "insert pseudoscience here". What about this slightly heretical Chapter found a way thanks to this xeno technology. As you can see, the general rule can remain, but be amended for exception.
Being passionnate about this part of the fluff up to the point of refusing any exeption to the rule is indeed rather strange.
It's a direct example of how people don't get as het up about male SoB as they do about female Space Marines. People are weird about female Space Marines when they're not weird about other similar breaks in fluff, as evidenced by this guy's experience.
Edit: apologies you've edited your comment Quickjager!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 21:12:12
And my point is I can find it anywhere. So I don't know that it happened, because I would be one of the few who would have objected.
Why I would have objected is because as I explained earlier, SoB are pretty boring as a concept in themselves, an all-female army, but once you get into the fluff of why they exist - they become pretty cool. If you take away the key component of why they exist (a loophole) then you take away their identity. It follows some of the same logic I used in GK earlier.
EDIT: ...What did they do with male nulls, why are Sisters of Silence all female... I kinda want to know more now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 21:19:31
I think beyond the loophole fluff - which I agree is very interesting and is so revealing about the strange culture of the Imperium at large - there is also something very cool about them being all-female. There is the IRL belief that women generally are just not cut out to be soldiers, at least not as well as men. In the 40k setting, the men who stand up to these absolute terrors are superbeings. But not the women! The women are just regular people apart from their astounding faith. And that of course makes their crazy faith somehow all the more believable (not that they are women, but that they are regular humans). Them being all women, I think, has always been a bit of a backhand to the notion that women are perforce second-class warriors. Obviously, I am overlooking the IG a bit here because I always tend to think of the IG as kind of haplessly forced into bad situations and they are at best fatalistic about it, whereas the SM and the SoB are striding voluntarily into the teeth of hell because that's just who they are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 21:22:54
(not really wanting to be getting back in to the FSM argument, but felt the need to add this)
You find Sisters of BAttle to be unintersting because "an all female army"... would you find it odd that someone else finds marines to be boring because "oh they're just another all-male army yawn"?
I find Sisters of Battle interesting because they're human, myself. They're NOT augmented, and yet they stand as equals alongside augmented humans, through skill, faith, and fervor. That's what appeals, to me. Their history is actually kinda cringe-worthy at times.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
that's a very frank, brave and I feel astute explanation for why this is such a big deal.
bag!"
