So I've been interested in starting Tau (1500pt?) and after reading through forums etc it seems lile they get a lot of Hate.
I've yet to play against one(beginner) or see a Tau army.

Now, I don't need my army to be full competitive- I want to be able to enjoy playing it without cheese!

So I was thinking maybe just 1 Riptide? And basing my army on infantry/ stealth suits?

What would a generic list look like without the Riptide spam and cheese?

And is the Start Collecting box a good start?

Thanks guys.

Just play

HQ: Shaper
Troop: Kroot
Fast attack: vespids, flyers and kroot hounds
Heavy: Krootox

 oldzoggy wrote:
Just play

HQ: Shaper
Troop: Kroot
Fast attack: vespids, flyers and kroot hounds
Heavy: Krootox

Not a fan of Kroot models and fluff.

And... Vespids have IMO one of THE worst models out of the current GW range...

Just avoid spamming the Riptide and take a couple of sub-optimal units like Breachers or Pathfinders. You should be fine.

Sikplex, I would recommend playing what you want to play and what your friends are comfortable playing against, not so much what the internet doesn't like.

Yet, I would also recommend, in order to keep your friends from reacting the same way as the internet, to play a variety of units, not always the most efficient units.

Bring some Firewarriors [by themselves, they're not cheese], Devilfish, Hammerheads, Kroot [including them can be fun for both sides], Broadsides, maybe an Ethereal.

Pick up the Start Collecting box, and experiment with the units as you learn. You should aim to learn over time how the army works, and how to use a variety of units well, and not just rely on having a few optimized units as a crutch.

If you stick to a CAD and only take one Tau MC then you should be fine

Tau are hated simply because they are frustrating to play against. It's not about cheese, but the style of play they must use to be successful. Superior range and fire power do not make for a great gaming experience. Nobody likes getting slapped around for 5-7 turns doing minimal damage back.

That said, you can beat them. But not everybody wants to relive the experience. Even Tau players. It's the main reason you rarely see Tau vs Tau games.

second attempt. Do not use marker lights or anything that can make a jump move ; )

I'm just using whatever I like the look of best and trying to keep the entire army short to mid ranged so that while I may use jump shoot jump, I'm not doing it from half a board away too. Markerlights I'm throwing on stealthsuits which I'm told is suboptimal then I'm looking at a total of 6 lights in 1850.

Of course, a lot of tau units are quite good but only a few of them are extremely good. Just avoid the stormsurge and take a single riptide, you'll have a decent army without the cheese, but still mid tier.

The biggest issue people have with tau is that most of the tau turn is JSJ or just shoot from across the board. For the first few turns, outside of bikes or pods (which they get to shoot first), you can't do much of anything against them, and even after that they'll rarely see close combat. Against the extremely static tau armies it feels like the game is just "march toward them while dying, if you make it there you stab them", where suit games feel like "why can't I shoot them, get back here cowards". In general it always feels like "we ignore all your special rules" as well as having a very hard counter to close combat (all our stuff gets to shoot your stuff if you don't make 4 coordinated charges).

It really is hard to overcome these issues outside of running extremely underoptimized lists, at which point you won't have a good time. I'll play against tau, but that's because I'm fine with the whole "my stuff dies en masse" thing. Some people just want more interaction in a game.

The problem is the definition of cheese, I have a large force of Tau but prefer to field Farsight enclaves with mass battle suits and 2 of my friends are of differing opinions. one outright refuses to play me as tau as he see's many aspects of tau as broken, despite the fact they are aspects that I play the bare minimum of, if at all. The other friend is more than willing to because the list is pretty straight forward and pretty predictable despite its strength. I say far sight enclaves, he expects plenty of battle suits, not 3 riptides with lots of marker drones or a swarm of piranha. you can't really cheese a list if you play a more rounded style army that incorporates a fluffier style army rather than focusing on the powerful formations.

People overstate how powerful Tau are. I lose with them all the time!

In my last two games, I was beaten by Tyranids then Dark Eldar / Eldar Corsairs (git kept putting my broadsides in reserve!).

Anything in the game can handle 1 Riptide, aslong as you don't include other powerful units with it.

I'd say steer clear of the Stormsurge, the standard "command squad" build, spamming Skyrays or Ghostkeels if you want an actual casual Tau army.

Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Hammerheads, Sniper Drones, Ethereals, Pirahnas and especially the Tau -flyers make for a more relaxed army. If someone hates on that, they just got issues and it has nothing to do with actual game balance so leave those fellas to play by themselves.

As a caveat to the riptide, don't take stimms or the IA, limit the use of the 3++ nova charge

I enjoy playing non cheese. Personally I am a big fan of the tau vehicles so I like playing them. Usually not considered cheesy playing two hammerheads and no riptides.

 pumpinchimp wrote:
People overstate how powerful Tau are. I lose with them all the time!

In my last two games, I was beaten by Tyranids then Dark Eldar / Eldar Corsairs (git kept putting my broadsides in reserve!).

Why would you put Broadies in reserve?

 Vector Strike wrote:

 pumpinchimp wrote:
People overstate how powerful Tau are. I lose with them all the time!

In my last two games, I was beaten by Tyranids then Dark Eldar / Eldar Corsairs (git kept putting my broadsides in reserve!).

Why would you put Broadies in reserve?

I didn't. The corsairs get a psychic power that puts an enemy unit into ongoing reserves. He kept doing it to my broadsides, they spent the whole game walking on my board edge then snap firing at things. It sucked (but at the same time was really funny).

It's stupid that they don't have relentless.

I think playing with lots of terrain alleviates a lot of problems with facing Tau. Just make sure you can't play a static gunline.

As a side effect the game feels a lot better with the amount of terrain.

play maelstrom of war missions preferably tactical supremecy objectives.

I would not say don't take any riptides, but keep it to one.

get devilfish for your fir warriors and actually play mobile tau. it is both fun to play and fun to play against while still being fairly strong. JSJ units are fine but keep it to less than 1/4 points, gives your opponent something to work towards assaulting.

general rule of thumb for me in games to keep them fun is that I should be spending roughly equal time in movement, shooting and assault phase, though when playing my tau it is just roughly equal move and shoot, then avoiding assaults like the plague unless I am playing with allies that can do so.

People always do this - give something "They" dislike a negative name and then push that narrative to everyone around them.

How many major tournaments have been won by Tau over the years? All I seem to find is Eldar.

I can't imagine telling someone not to play something they own. I do like when people take it upon themselves to make sure both sides are having fun. Ultimately that means it's not about the rules that GW creates, but what the players do with it. The players are responsible for spam lists.

 Da-Rock wrote:
People always do this - give something "They" dislike a negative name and then push that narrative to everyone around them.

How many major tournaments have been won by Tau over the years? All I seem to find is Eldar.

I can't imagine telling someone not to play something they own. I do like when people take it upon themselves to make sure both sides are having fun. Ultimately that means it's not about the rules that GW creates, but what the players do with it. The players are responsible for spam lists.

We've gone over this a few times so i'll rehash it quickly and if you want more detail you can go find the older posts.

Tau are not #1 overall, they are tied for #2 with SMs. Eldar are still the end all be all cheese of cheese. Tau do better then almost every other army though because of how little skill it takes to play their super competitive builds. Take Riptides, deploy markerlights, kill things from across the table.

tau get a bad rep because the game is boring when you play against them. its a cat and mouse game that you really cant win because they are faster then almost every other faction and have more dakka then every other faction.

The point of this post wasn't telling others what to play with or not to play with it was to help a guy play casual tau because he doesn't want to be TFG Tau player which we all know and love

So with that in mind to the OP, Don't take riptide wings, 1 riptide at the ABSOLUTE MOST, don't take anything bigger then a riptide either. Avoid spamming SMS, Missilesides and what not. Even though they are never seen, regular standard issue firewarriors are actually fairly good. S5 Range 30 rapid fire weapon? yes please. Take some stealth suits for fun, they are also under rated but they are pretty bad. Grab some Suits to jump around and have fun with. Piranha are also good fun and can do some damage if used correctly, but again sub optimal.

In most circumstances, fire warriors are more effective than tac marines. They do double the wounds to T6, a critical T value, and they can glance out AV 11 and glance out AV 10 twice as fast.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Da-Rock wrote:
People always do this - give something "They" dislike a negative name and then push that narrative to everyone around them.

How many major tournaments have been won by Tau over the years? All I seem to find is Eldar.

I can't imagine telling someone not to play something they own. I do like when people take it upon themselves to make sure both sides are having fun. Ultimately that means it's not about the rules that GW creates, but what the players do with it. The players are responsible for spam lists.

We've gone over this a few times so i'll rehash it quickly and if you want more detail you can go find the older posts.

Tau are not #1 overall, they are tied for #2 with SMs. Eldar are still the end all be all cheese of cheese. Tau do better then almost every other army though because of how little skill it takes to play their super competitive builds. Take Riptides, deploy markerlights, kill things from across the table.

tau get a bad rep because the game is boring when you play against them. its a cat and mouse game that you really cant win because they are faster then almost every other faction and have more dakka then every other faction.

The point of this post wasn't telling others what to play with or not to play with it was to help a guy play casual tau because he doesn't want to be TFG Tau player which we all know and love

So with that in mind to the OP, Don't take riptide wings, 1 riptide at the ABSOLUTE MOST, don't take anything bigger then a riptide either. Avoid spamming SMS, Missilesides and what not. Even though they are never seen, regular standard issue firewarriors are actually fairly good. S5 Range 30 rapid fire weapon? yes please. Take some stealth suits for fun, they are also under rated but they are pretty bad. Grab some Suits to jump around and have fun with. Piranha are also good fun and can do some damage if used correctly, but again sub optimal.

Iirc only riptide wings placed well, and even then daemons beat them along with cross and SM from whatever the last major tourney was (again, iirc)

Eldar/tau combo placed 5th (of which it was MOSTLY eldar with a single riptide wing with a grand total of 3 riptides), and farsight enclave placed 7th. So really, one tau army placed 7th, DA placed 2nd, but daemons still won overall.

 Gamgee wrote:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/02/07/las-vegas-open-2017-top-8-lists-pictures/

So in order.

Chaos Deamons, Dark Angels Wolfstar, Chaos Deamon, Cult Mechanicus War Convo, Eldar-Tau, Corsairs, Farsight Enclaves and Chaos Deamons. Also I think a Dark Eldar player almost made the top 11 with a majority DE army and only a tiny amount of Eldar.

So those are all doing good int eh current meta, but this was not factoring in the new Eldar release at all. So it's already out of date. From what I hear both GS 2 and GS3 adds some super powerful options to their respective factions. It all remains to see how the meta will play out.

If you play Tau where you have lots of models and are taking casualties then it's not as unfun for the opponent to play against. If your bringing just a few big MC suits with lots of wounds and good saves then it's more frustrating when a lot of the enemy's shooting is plinking off of them. Also playing Tau where you being more aggressive with scoring and moving instead of camping at long range makes the game a lot more fun. That being said if the opponent is playing pure melee then don't just run your guts forward to get charged but having units to spare and plenty of bodies makes Tau more interesting to play as and against.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

get devilfish for your fir warriors and actually play mobile tau. it is both fun to play and fun to play against while still being fairly strong.

Is there a list for that? Sounds cool.

Dragobeth wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

get devilfish for your fir warriors and actually play mobile tau. it is both fun to play and fun to play against while still being fairly strong.

Is there a list for that? Sounds cool.

basic 1850

shadowsun
riptide
stealthsuits
crisisx3 burst cannon and missiles

2x10 breachers with emp grenades in devilfish
2x fir warriors with emp in devilfish

1 razershark

2x broadsides each its own unit rail rifle and missiles velocity trackers and EWO

troops take objectives zip around in devilfish and get in good positions

crisis suits jump around and stealthsuits try and cover hop

everything but the broadsides stay in motion

 oldzoggy wrote:
Just play

HQ: Shaper
Troop: Kroot
Fast attack: vespids, flyers and kroot hounds
Heavy: Krootox

Kroot ox, shaper and hounds are upgrades to kroot, not their own units.

yeah this is partly why I posted it.
I know this, or at least I thought I knew, I have been trying to make a decent kroot army for a while now but its impossible due to nu hq HQ's outside the chapterapproved stuff. However the GW site doesn't list them all under troops they list them under HQ, fast and heavy...

Did I miss something, is the webshop wrong or is it hinting at some changes ?

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Dragobeth wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

get devilfish for your fir warriors and actually play mobile tau. it is both fun to play and fun to play against while still being fairly strong.

Is there a list for that? Sounds cool.

basic 1850

shadowsun
riptide
stealthsuits
crisisx3 burst cannon and missiles

2x10 breachers with emp grenades in devilfish
2x fir warriors with emp in devilfish

1 razershark

2x broadsides each its own unit rail rifle and missiles velocity trackers and EWO

troops take objectives zip around in devilfish and get in good positions

crisis suits jump around and stealthsuits try and cover hop

everything but the broadsides stay in motion

Can't take 2 support systems on a broadside

Play without makerlights, then tau is fine.

 Brutallica wrote:
Play without makerlights, then tau is fine.

That's like telling a Marine to play without chapter tactics or Gaurd to play without orders. Doable but really why?

One way to have fun with Tau while not being cheesy but hilarious is to make your Crisis Commander suit Commander One-Punch Man. Take Iriduim Armor, Onager Gauntlet and Vectored-Retro Thrusters. Run up and smack things with your one hit, s10 AP1 punch. While obviously not optimized, it's a fun and unexpected way to run him. I even ID'd a Necron Overlord one time who proceeded to fail his RP roll. XD

Myself I like the kamikaze crisis suicide bomber gambit. Lone naked bodyguard XV8 + failsafe detonator. Throw him into CC with something big soft and hordey and laugh as he ties them up for a few turns until they finally kill him and he drops a S5 large blast in their faces. 42pts but worth every penny for the comedy value alone

The "Tau OP Cheese" cries seem to be related to two things - parking lot battlefields allowing them to concentrate fire and heavy hitter spam boosted to insanity with markerlights. They can easily sweep entire squads away if you play on a board where all of the Tau units have unrestricted LOS!

With enough terrain Tau aren't that bad to fight. And an opponent who takes more infantry and vehicles than suits will also make it more fun. I've yet to lose against our Tau player, even if I never manage to get all his suits. By the end of the game he's usually left with only suits JSJing around trying to take out my scoring units while avoiding return fire from Exorcists.

When you play Tau you're playing an all or nothing game, either you kill your opponent's stuff before it gets close to your expensive stuff or your opponent's stuff destroys your expensive stuff.
It's not that Tau are cheesy, it's that they only do one thing well - shoot or lose.

Just avoid deploying the stormsurge and more than 2 riptides, maybe bring just a single one of them.

I vote for mech Tau. Devilfish mounted troops and Hammerhead tanks!

Take it old school!

 SickSix wrote:
I vote for mech Tau. Devilfish mounted troops and Hammerhead tanks!

Take it old school!

Put Breachers in the Fish and make it new old skool!

 oldzoggy wrote:
second attempt. Do not use marker lights or anything that can make a jump move ; )

Your a monster!

Buy the models you want to paint. Then work it into a list. Simple as.

My experience as quite a noob playing Tau for a few months is that for some unknown reason anybody who doesn't play them thinks they are cheese..... despite no psychic, poor BS for a "shooty" army, ultra low WS, T, I. Zero options for assault based units, limited HQ options, absolutely dog gak special characters. The list goes on...

They are an army that to be competitive (by this i mean actually win a game) with you must play a certain way, but if you play that way you will get abuse (JSJ, positioning models for supporting fire, using ignores cover; again, the list goes on)

Eldar get soulburst (among other things), imperium gets endless underpointed (RG) special characters and the ability to ally with basically anything they need (got no assault? run an allied space wolf detachment), but if tau bring anything remotely dangerous then you are a cheesey cheater whos no fun to play.

I played against an 1850 Tau list intentionally toned down and won with my "probably the best my army can actually bring" pure IG list. He had a Commander with 4 marker drones, 2 units of Fire Warriors and an Ethereal, some sniper drones with controller, 2 broadsides with a couple drones, DS stealth suits, outflanking piranhas, bleachers in a devilish, and two Riptides. Tau can be in a lot of trouble if they don't go first, and with my IG having a good amount of Ignores Cover, that Tau army was without its Devilfish or any of its Breachers and down plenty of Fire Warriors before they even got to move.

Now having some real experience against Tau, I can safely say they're a lot more fun to play when they bring lots of infantry, don't have formations, don't pack a Stormsurge, but still pose a challenge to beat. My game would've been a draw if one of his Riptides didn't fail a 5" charge to kill my Pasknisher at 1 HP then consolidate into my deployment zone for StW and linebreaker. Even with a fantastic first turn, I was by no means guaranteed to win, and the fact that it was anyone's game during the whole game is what really makes games more fun.

Process wrote:
Buy the models you want to paint. Then work it into a list. Simple as.

My experience as quite a noob playing Tau for a few months is that for some unknown reason anybody who doesn't play them thinks they are cheese..... despite no psychic, poor BS for a "shooty" army, ultra low WS, T, I. Zero options for assault based units, limited HQ options, absolutely dog gak special characters. The list goes on...

They are an army that to be competitive (by this i mean actually win a game) with you must play a certain way, but if you play that way you will get abuse (JSJ, positioning models for supporting fire, using ignores cover; again, the list goes on)

Eldar get soulburst (among other things), imperium gets endless underpointed (RG) special characters and the ability to ally with basically anything they need (got no assault? run an allied space wolf detachment), but if tau bring anything remotely dangerous then you are a cheesey cheater whos no fun to play.

You'd be surprised to see how soulburst is 100% irrelevant to competitive Eldar, and how close competitive Eldar is to competitive Tau.

Actually, Eldar is even more based on two really strong units, whereas Tau pretty much has a nice top 4 with Ta'Unar, Riptide Wing, Stormsurge, Ghostkeels.

With Eldar, if you don't bring either scatbike spam or warp spiders, you can go back to fighting mid-tier armies at best.

With Tau, you have to get rid of 3 units before you leave top tier.

Sikplex wrote:
So I've been interested in starting Tau (1500pt?) and after reading through forums etc it seems lile they get a lot of Hate.
I've yet to play against one(beginner) or see a Tau army.

Now, I don't need my army to be full competitive- I want to be able to enjoy playing it without cheese!

So I was thinking maybe just 1 Riptide? And basing my army on infantry/ stealth suits?

What would a generic list look like without the Riptide spam and cheese?

And is the Start Collecting box a good start?

Thanks guys.

People hate Tau for a variety of reasons that I am sure you'll have read before.

Tau are great. Pick them up.

If you want to not play cheesy tau, you must choose to play them with extreme mobility. That majority of the hate come from players finding it boring and that they just pack up their models.

Here is a non-boring list -
Use the CAD Detachment
Commander with signature systems that buff his unit.
Farsight
Crisis suit squad
Make a*EDITED "Little" bomb out of these guys and drop them right in the think of the enemy. Give the crisis suits target locks so you can take out a maybe 2 units. give the squad gun drones to hit a 3rd unit and act as extra wounds.

Then get some breacher squads in devilfish transports and scoot up field and unload the breachers at point blank range to blast them with S6 AP3 shotguns.
Also just Kroot infantry are great. 2x10 kroot squads to run up and fight as well.

Marker drone formation is great because it gives you mobile marker light solution so they too are moving or get some skyrays.

Get some piranhas also scoot around the field to get objectives or put the hurt on light infantry or light vehicles

Lastly get a storm surge and have it run around and not sit back and just shoot. get it into combat.

Then tell the whiners that you're undoubtedly going to play against to STFU as you've met the following conditions:
No Gun Line
No Broadsidebomb
No Riptide wing
No Optimized Stealth Cadre
No Hunter Contingent
You moved.
You got up in their face.

Playing this way is fun. I do this. It's risky because you will get charged and will die in CC. You will also put yourself in range of psykers. Your Stormsurge is expensive but is only T6 with 3+ save. But atleast you risked it dying by being aggressive.

Farsight bomb isn't, and never has been, fun for anyone to play against, it;s not very strong, but it's not interactive, like basically every other deathstar in the game.

Just one note- I usually fought against shadowsun, farsight, buffmander and I think like 9 bodyguards all with target lock and various weapons.

Well he/she probably still would like to have a chance at also having fun and even winning so a light Farsight, buffmander and 3 crisis suits squad isn't unreasonable

morgoth wrote:

Process wrote:
Buy the models you want to paint. Then work it into a list. Simple as.

My experience as quite a noob playing Tau for a few months is that for some unknown reason anybody who doesn't play them thinks they are cheese..... despite no psychic, poor BS for a "shooty" army, ultra low WS, T, I. Zero options for assault based units, limited HQ options, absolutely dog gak special characters. The list goes on...

They are an army that to be competitive (by this i mean actually win a game) with you must play a certain way, but if you play that way you will get abuse (JSJ, positioning models for supporting fire, using ignores cover; again, the list goes on)

Eldar get soulburst (among other things), imperium gets endless underpointed (RG) special characters and the ability to ally with basically anything they need (got no assault? run an allied space wolf detachment), but if tau bring anything remotely dangerous then you are a cheesey cheater whos no fun to play.

You'd be surprised to see how soulburst is 100% irrelevant to competitive Eldar, and how close competitive Eldar is to competitive Tau.

Actually, Eldar is even more based on two really strong units, whereas Tau pretty much has a nice top 4 with Ta'Unar, Riptide Wing, Stormsurge, Ghostkeels.

With Eldar, if you don't bring either scatbike spam or warp spiders, you can go back to fighting mid-tier armies at best.

With Tau, you have to get rid of 3 units before you leave top tier.

I just dont think thats true considering the Psychic abilities and multitude of strong units available to Eldar at quite low cost. Tell me how a riptide wing counters a full unit of Wraithguard teleporting within 6inches, with invisibility, and twin linked (another psychic power) D weapons hitting on 3+.... then doing it all again after destroying the first riptide with their soul burst action. ohhh and just incase that wasnt enough of a dick punch- avatar of ynead drops where one the 2 dead riptides once stood. But nahh, scatbikes and warp spiders are all that makes eldar good.....

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Play without makerlights, then tau is fine.

That's like telling a Marine to play without chapter tactics or Gaurd to play without orders. Doable but really why?

Because he asked for Tau minus the cheese, and markerlights break all sorts of rules in the game, and make cover irrelevant.

Process wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Process wrote:
Buy the models you want to paint. Then work it into a list. Simple as.

My experience as quite a noob playing Tau for a few months is that for some unknown reason anybody who doesn't play them thinks they are cheese..... despite no psychic, poor BS for a "shooty" army, ultra low WS, T, I. Zero options for assault based units, limited HQ options, absolutely dog gak special characters. The list goes on...

They are an army that to be competitive (by this i mean actually win a game) with you must play a certain way, but if you play that way you will get abuse (JSJ, positioning models for supporting fire, using ignores cover; again, the list goes on)

Eldar get soulburst (among other things), imperium gets endless underpointed (RG) special characters and the ability to ally with basically anything they need (got no assault? run an allied space wolf detachment), but if tau bring anything remotely dangerous then you are a cheesey cheater whos no fun to play.

You'd be surprised to see how soulburst is 100% irrelevant to competitive Eldar, and how close competitive Eldar is to competitive Tau.

Actually, Eldar is even more based on two really strong units, whereas Tau pretty much has a nice top 4 with Ta'Unar, Riptide Wing, Stormsurge, Ghostkeels.

With Eldar, if you don't bring either scatbike spam or warp spiders, you can go back to fighting mid-tier armies at best.

With Tau, you have to get rid of 3 units before you leave top tier.

I just dont think thats true considering the Psychic abilities and multitude of strong units available to Eldar at quite low cost. Tell me how a riptide wing counters a full unit of Wraithguard teleporting within 6inches, with invisibility, and twin linked (another psychic power) D weapons hitting on 3+.... then doing it all again after destroying the first riptide with their soul burst action. ohhh and just incase that wasnt enough of a dick punch- avatar of ynead drops where one the 2 dead riptides once stood. But nahh, scatbikes and warp spiders are all that makes eldar good.....

I think you misunderstand what is required to win tournaments.
Your big flamestar would cost more than 700 points, be totally dependent on powers they cannot guarantee, and can only have one soulburst action per turn.
While they may in theory be good against a Riptide Wing, they may not do that great in the overall meta, which is what being competitive is about.

 Jaxler wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Dragobeth wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

get devilfish for your fir warriors and actually play mobile tau. it is both fun to play and fun to play against while still being fairly strong.

Is there a list for that? Sounds cool.

basic 1850

shadowsun
riptide
stealthsuits
crisisx3 burst cannon and missiles

2x10 breachers with emp grenades in devilfish
2x fir warriors with emp in devilfish

1 razershark

2x broadsides each its own unit rail rifle and missiles velocity trackers and EWO

troops take objectives zip around in devilfish and get in good positions

crisis suits jump around and stealthsuits try and cover hop

everything but the broadsides stay in motion

Can't take 2 support systems on a broadside

one each, one handles anti air preferably behind good cover but has to survive a round or two of shooting (razershark backup). one handles intercepting unexpected visitors.

 Brutallica wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Play without makerlights, then tau is fine.

That's like telling a Marine to play without chapter tactics or Gaurd to play without orders. Doable but really why?

Because he asked for Tau minus the cheese, and markerlights break all sorts of rules in the game, and make cover irrelevant.

Marker lights are not more cheesy than SM chapter tactics, Guard orders, ad mech canticles of the ommissiah / doctina imperitives. I'd take guard orders over markerlights anyday.

Guard can also negate cover using their orders and do alot more besides. Silent ignores cover exists on every close combat weapon in the game which is why tau really could use some means of putting ignores cover on their shooting because of all the factions they are the worse for CC.

I think sometimes people just cry cheese because they can't play for gak and can't admit it.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Play without makerlights, then tau is fine.

That's like telling a Marine to play without chapter tactics or Gaurd to play without orders. Doable but really why?

Because he asked for Tau minus the cheese, and markerlights break all sorts of rules in the game, and make cover irrelevant.

Marker lights are not more cheesy than SM chapter tactics, Guard orders, ad mech canticles of the ommissiah / doctina imperitives. I'd take guard orders over markerlights anyday.

Guard can also negate cover using their orders and do alot more besides. Silent ignores cover exists on every close combat weapon in the game which is why tau really could use some means of putting ignores cover on their shooting because of all the factions they are the worse for CC.

I think sometimes people just cry cheese because they can't play for gak and can't admit it.

THIS!!!

BUT. I will argue that there are just some codexes that are very week and maybe have 1 or 2 viable builds.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Play without makerlights, then tau is fine.

That's like telling a Marine to play without chapter tactics or Gaurd to play without orders. Doable but really why?

Because he asked for Tau minus the cheese, and markerlights break all sorts of rules in the game, and make cover irrelevant.

Marker lights are not more cheesy than SM chapter tactics, Guard orders, ad mech canticles of the ommissiah / doctina imperitives. I'd take guard orders over markerlights anyday.

Guard can also negate cover using their orders and do alot more besides. Silent ignores cover exists on every close combat weapon in the game which is why tau really could use some means of putting ignores cover on their shooting because of all the factions they are the worse for CC.

I think sometimes people just cry cheese because they can't play for gak and can't admit it.

Okay, you can have my BA and I'll take tau. After the 20th loss in a row, maybe you'll get it.

I just started Tau myself. Before I bought some models I started this thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/719520.page

I also wanted to play something that would be fun for my opponents. Light on the cheese. I got a pretty fun looking list posted up by the end of the thread. I have almost all of it built now and should get a game or 2 this weekend to test it out.

Lots of tanks. Lots of troops. Some crisis suits.

Martel732 wrote:


Okay, you can have my BA and I'll take tau. After the 20th loss in a row, maybe you'll get it.

Is it just Tau you lose against or do you lose against everyone? Even if it is just Tau you struggle against that may just be because BA or the way you play them are not especially good against Tau, but that doesn't make Tau cheese.

Tau can shoot but they can't do much else and even their shooting is only really strong when focus firing gak down which makes MSU a good approach against them. I don't know much about BA but I gather from 1d4chan/tactics that they are fast marines which lean heavily on choppy rather than shooty. You should have no trouble with Tau then if you can get into CC with them. So presumably they are deleted too much of your forces before you can get in their fishy faces. Are you constituted as MSU or deathstar?

Usually very heavy MSU. They are ridiculously lethal in the shooting phase. Yeah, I know go after the marker lights, but that's easier said than done with marine weapons.

Tau are probably my very worst matchup actually. Sometimes against Eldar they get cocky and don't reserve when they should or they get a WK eaten by Mephiston. Sometimes. Demons aren't great either, but it's a very different problem. The reality is that most BA units can't beat a Riptide in CC even if they get there. They're a choppy army that can't chop.

Martel732 wrote:
Usually very heavy MSU. They are ridiculously lethal in the shooting phase. Yeah, I know go after the marker lights, but that's easier said than done with marine weapons.

Tau are probably my very worst matchup actually. Sometimes against Eldar they get cocky and don't reserve when they should or they get a WK eaten by Mephiston. Sometimes. Demons aren't great either, but it's a very different problem. The reality is that most BA units can't beat a Riptide in CC even if they get there. They're a choppy army that can't chop.

flamers are usually pretty efficient at making tau pathfinders disappear if you are having that much trouble with them.

additionally an allied thunderfire cannon with the ignore cover ammo works wonders.

I don't think anyone should base their opinion of balance on one BA player who's always complaining in every single thread.

Make sure you understand your meta before you go all the way to garbage lists, you may end up losing all the time and that's no fun either.

The drones are significantly tougher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
I don't think anyone should base their opinion of balance on one BA player who's always complaining in every single thread.

Make sure you understand your meta before you go all the way to garbage lists, you may end up losing all the time and that's no fun either.

I'm not saying the marker lights are cheese. The game rules are just heavily skewed to the way the Tau operate. On top of their few critical undercosted units like Riptides and Stormsurges.

morgoth wrote:
I don't think anyone should base their opinion of balance on one BA player who's always complaining in every single thread..

IIRC his group refuses to use proper terrain so he either fights on a parking lot or goes home without a game. Meaning his BA start with a massive handicap just from the board setup every single time.

It's not actually a parking lot. There's a lot of COVER, just not LOS-blocking. I find it a little broken that the board has a look a certain way to get a fair game vs Tau. Especially when the BRB says nothing about how much terrain to use.

It's not just vs tau. It's against ANYTHING shooty army. No LOS blocking terrain is inherently unfair for an assault army.

A normal game of 40K has 20-25% terrain, some of which has to be LOS blocking, otherwise, wtf is the point of even having LoS in the game?

Previous BRBs were clear on the 20-25% and so far it has proven to be a good starting point.

Martel732 wrote:
I find it a little broken that the board has a look a certain way to get a fair game vs Tau.

But if shooty armies have LOS over all of the board they have an immediate advantage, Tau or not. It's a shooting gallery vs anyone who has to get close and that seems a bit unfair to me when shooting is already good. Some LOS blocks would at least make them think a bit about their deployment and give shorter-ranged armies a chance to get into effective range.

Maybe GW should have codified this.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe GW should have codified this.

Or maybe you could "forge the narrative" and bring along a couple of pieces of LOS blocking terrain of your own. Buy somebody's unwanted terrain off of ebay or bring along a couple of shoe boxes if you don't want to spend much.

Are you both agreeing to not use Los terrain, or just your opponent who didn't want to? Because that's probably a large reason why your BA never survive past turn one apparently

 Wolfblade wrote:
Are you both agreeing to not use Los terrain, or just your opponent who didn't want to? Because that's probably a large reason why your BA never survive past turn one apparently

its more of if he doesn't agree he loses out on a large portion of his opponenets cause they want no los breaking terrain. So game breaking setup vs no games

There's usually a little, but i can't put much behind it. It doesn't help that blasts only need to see one model.

kambien wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
Are you both agreeing to not use Los terrain, or just your opponent who didn't want to? Because that's probably a large reason why your BA never survive past turn one apparently

its more of if he doesn't agree he loses out on a large portion of his opponenets cause they want no los breaking terrain. So game breaking setup vs no games

sounds better to not play honestly, nothing but frustration from being target practice.

Sikplex wrote:
So I've been interested in starting Tau (1500pt?) and after reading through forums etc it seems lile they get a lot of Hate.
I've yet to play against one(beginner) or see a Tau army.

Now, I don't need my army to be full competitive- I want to be able to enjoy playing it without cheese!

So I was thinking maybe just 1 Riptide? And basing my army on infantry/ stealth suits?

What would a generic list look like without the Riptide spam and cheese?

And is the Start Collecting box a good start?

Thanks guys.

My simple response is this: the "hate" isn't very well founded. What really happens is, people don't want to change . So they hate anything that makes them change. It isn't that Tau are any different than any other faction, its just that not taking the Tau abilities into account will definitely cause an opponent problems.

I personally have never used the Riptide Wing Formation. it is EXTREMELY good and probably the only thing i nthe codex that even DESERVES the hate, honestly. Even that Formation has the same achillese heel every Tau unit has: Not fearless, hates melee. So the formula for beating Tau hasn't changed since day one. Have Fast melee. If your opponent does not want to embrace this reality and pretends like "shooting is the only thing worth focusing on" well let them enjoy their dirt nap after playing you. But if they adjust, they will be just fine.

Play what you want. That's what I would tell you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALSO: for help on the less cheesy stuff, visit my blog. I focus it a lot of the road less travelled, so you can dig through the posts and see what you can find in the weay of help there. =) http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/

I don't think its quite that easy in 7th. I think your criterion should be fast durable melee. TWC and wraiths are viable, asm are not. You can naysay me, but I maintain that durability/pt is a critical stat when facing off against Tau. BA and Orks just don't have it.

I also have to put a qualifer on the statement that riptides hate melee when they can beat almost any unit in my fast melee codex, including my Sanguinary guard or death company. They are particularly effective against the ragged remnants of squads that make it to the Tau deployment zone. It's good to be an MC.

Furthermore, I'd say base riptides deserve every ounce of hate they get because of their mathematical reality. Very undercosted unit.

Despite this, I'd still probably play what you want. BA players and Ork players should be used to getting decimated by Tau now.

Martel plays against a bunch of WAAC idiots but doesn't think it's their fault for playing overpowered lists or filling the table with advantageous terrain. He blames GW for giving them the option to do it instead of the players for being jerks.

So he goes to his store or plays his friends and has a miserable time and has grown bitter.

 Lance845 wrote:
Martel plays against a bunch of WAAC idiots but doesn't think it's their fault for playing overpowered lists or filling the table with advantageous terrain. He blames GW for giving them the option to do it instead of the players for being jerks.

So he goes to his store or plays his friends and has a miserable time and has grown bitter.

Blaming people for playing to win seems silly. Other games don't require people to self-nerf. They also don't have so much of the game hinge on something like terrain, which isn't purchased with points or quantifiable. It's actually quite valuable to have huge sections of the board blocked off, yet no points are paid for that privilege. Tau players pay points for their shooty units. It is more fair for them to just be turned off by a free board element? I don't see a good to fix for this other than charging points for terrain and making it part of a list.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think its quite that easy in 7th. I think your criterion should be fast durable melee. TWC and wraiths are viable, asm are not. You can naysay me, but I maintain that durability/pt is a critical stat when facing off against Tau. BA and Orks just don't have it.

Ironic you mention that Martel: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/03/musings-on-speed-vs-power.html

Martel732 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Martel plays against a bunch of WAAC idiots but doesn't think it's their fault for playing overpowered lists or filling the table with advantageous terrain. He blames GW for giving them the option to do it instead of the players for being jerks.

So he goes to his store or plays his friends and has a miserable time and has grown bitter.

Blaming people for playing to win seems silly. Other games don't require people to self-nerf. They also don't have so much of the game hinge on something like terrain, which isn't purchased with points or quantifiable. It's actually quite valuable to have huge sections of the board blocked off, yet no points are paid for that privilege. Tau players pay points for their shooty units. It is more fair for them to just be turned off by a free board element? I don't see a good to fix for this other than charging points for terrain and making it part of a list.

There are rules for how terrain gets placed and players are supposed to be alternating putting pieces down. Whether the piece is advantageous for you and penalizing for them is up to you with what pieces you pick and where you place them. Do your opponents refuse to play you/give you crap if you bring some of your own legal terrain and place it according to the rules? Then yeah, blame the players.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think its quite that easy in 7th. I think your criterion should be fast durable melee. TWC and wraiths are viable, asm are not. You can naysay me, but I maintain that durability/pt is a critical stat when facing off against Tau. BA and Orks just don't have it.

Ironic you mention that Martel: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/03/musings-on-speed-vs-power.html

So do you agree or disagree that tau is a brutal matchup for ba?

 Lance845 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Martel plays against a bunch of WAAC idiots but doesn't think it's their fault for playing overpowered lists or filling the table with advantageous terrain. He blames GW for giving them the option to do it instead of the players for being jerks.

So he goes to his store or plays his friends and has a miserable time and has grown bitter.

Blaming people for playing to win seems silly. Other games don't require people to self-nerf. They also don't have so much of the game hinge on something like terrain, which isn't purchased with points or quantifiable. It's actually quite valuable to have huge sections of the board blocked off, yet no points are paid for that privilege. Tau players pay points for their shooty units. It is more fair for them to just be turned off by a free board element? I don't see a good to fix for this other than charging points for terrain and making it part of a list.

There are rules for how terrain gets placed and players are supposed to be alternating putting pieces down. Whether the piece is advantageous for you and penalizing for them is up to you with what pieces you pick and where you place them. Do your opponents refuse to play you/give you crap if you bring some of your own legal terrain and place it according to the rules? Then yeah, blame the players.

I dont recall ever having an alternating terrain thing in the 7th edition book. Wheres that listed? Tournaments generally place the terrain. In casual games the host does and at the store someone usually sets it up and just asks the other guy if he likes it or not.


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Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think its quite that easy in 7th. I think your criterion should be fast durable melee. TWC and wraiths are viable, asm are not. You can naysay me, but I maintain that durability/pt is a critical stat when facing off against Tau. BA and Orks just don't have it.

Ironic you mention that Martel: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/03/musings-on-speed-vs-power.html

So do you agree or disagree that tau is a brutal matchup for ba?

I've never seen your list, even after the 100 millionth complaint about them. Lol. I am sure you are familiar with my point of view on Codex's winning games. They don't. So if you are talking about a specific matchup, I could comment if you provide a basic pic of the board and your army lists in front of me. As I have mentioned, VASSAL is very handy for showing thing like this. For example, a matchup one guy on Dakkadakka got into it with me on, that I then simulated, is pictures here:



I am willing to agree that the Blood Angel Codex requires a higher degree of skill to win with, because its units lack some of the options that make the others attractive. What does that mean? You actually have to PLAY the game and not just roll dice at peoples face like some armies like Eldar attempt and I also think the Blood Angels have some very cool unique units that are really where they shine.

I have multiple lists that I use. I don't have a single list. Just as there is not a single board set up. But I'll try to scribble down the next one.

Martel732 wrote:
I have multiple lists that I use. I don't have a single list. Just as there is not a single board set up. But I'll try to scribble down the next one.

I tend to crate a "Master list" from which I deviate a little as new threats become apparent. That way I "know" my list very well and the changes are minor enough to assimilate without taking away from that familiarity. I find that armies get easier to win with the more you use the same general pattern because you're not forgetting things or getting distracted by all the new stats and things you have to keep in mind.

That is off topic however. Sorry, original poster. As this pertains to Tau Empire, my favorite force, I'd say start with a really good core and start learning how to win with what you enjoy playing. the more familiar you get with it, the more you can imagine how little changes would help. I learned to REALLY be good using Tau Pathfinders for example. I also was one of the only Tau Generals I know who plays without Crisis Suits for most of my Warhammer career. I dabbled here and there, but I found that other units were more fun to use in order to gain the same results. My use of Sniper Drones is a rarity with most Generals as well. Many own them. Almost no one fields them.

So Theres lots of ways to win, but some require you to get more familiar and skilled with them than other more push button units. Still fun though if you dont mind learning and are getting lots of practice games in.

Martel732 wrote:
There's usually a little, but i can't put much behind it. It doesn't help that blasts only need to see one model.

...the blast would kill only one model due to how LoS Wounds interaction takes place.

Spetulhu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it a little broken that the board has a look a certain way to get a fair game vs Tau.

But if shooty armies have LOS over all of the board they have an immediate advantage, Tau or not. It's a shooting gallery vs anyone who has to get close and that seems a bit unfair to me when shooting is already good. Some LOS blocks would at least make them think a bit about their deployment and give shorter-ranged armies a chance to get into effective range.

Space Wolves and GSC are currently making a mockery of fields like that.
The less terrain there is the easier it is for the Wulfen boosted TWC and Cult Ambushes to slip past the cheap outer defences and start breaking the expensive and useful stuff. Terrain becomes negotiable "If you can't see through it I can't charge through it" becomes something to genuinely consider rather than something to scoff at.
Martel - how many people play Space Wolves or GSC where you play?

 Quickjager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's usually a little, but i can't put much behind it. It doesn't help that blasts only need to see one model.

...the blast would kill only one model due to how LoS Wounds interaction takes place.

That's genuinely stupid. It's not like an explosion would avoid somebody because the firer can't see them.

Not really sure about BA as I don't play them and I don't see a BA player here since a lot of time, but orks can win against tau. Maybe a 100% overpowered list breaks them most of the times, but against a typical competitive list orks can definitely win. Just play superfast MSU, you won't get tabled with 25 kill points and you can score a lot of points. Typical eldar and supercheesy SM are almost impossible for orks, not tau. Yes tau are better on average than orks but the gap between those armies is not that huge.

 Blackie wrote:
Not really sure about BA as I don't play them and I don't see a BA player here since a lot of time, but orks can win against tau. Maybe a 100% overpowered list breaks them most of the times, but against a typical competitive list orks can definitely win. Just play superfast MSU, you won't get tabled with 25 kill points and you can score a lot of points. Typical eldar and supercheesy SM are almost impossible for orks, not tau. Yes tau are better on average than orks but the gap between those armies is not that huge.

Orks get across the board in massed trukks to assault in MSU. BA have the wonderful choices of podding in and hiding behind their Drop Pods, hoping the Tau blow them up so whatever doesn't die in the explosion can try to charge across the 7" minimum at the Tau lines, get overwatched back another couple of inches then getting shot up completely in the next Tau shooting phase because they could no longer get a model to make combat.
Alternatively they pod in lotsa Dreads with lotsa flame templates and lotsa Lucius Pods.
They can't really swarm the Tau like Orks can.

BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's usually a little, but i can't put much behind it. It doesn't help that blasts only need to see one model.

...the blast would kill only one model due to how LoS Wounds interaction takes place.

That's genuinely stupid. It's not like an explosion would avoid somebody because the firer can't see them.

I just looked it up. Blasts can kill out of los just like i thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it a little broken that the board has a look a certain way to get a fair game vs Tau.

But if shooty armies have LOS over all of the board they have an immediate advantage, Tau or not. It's a shooting gallery vs anyone who has to get close and that seems a bit unfair to me when shooting is already good. Some LOS blocks would at least make them think a bit about their deployment and give shorter-ranged armies a chance to get into effective range.

Space Wolves and GSC are currently making a mockery of fields like that.
The less terrain there is the easier it is for the Wulfen boosted TWC and Cult Ambushes to slip past the cheap outer defences and start breaking the expensive and useful stuff. Terrain becomes negotiable "If you can't see through it I can't charge through it" becomes something to genuinely consider rather than something to scoff at.
Martel - how many people play Space Wolves or GSC where you play?

Two sw, no gsc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

I've done that. I use all of these things. But not having access to free anything an in fact paying extra for fast backfires. In my view, its actually easier to win with de because they have assault transports.
I
I don't own any lucious pods and im not messing with that so close to 8th.

I'm willing to accept that tau are a mathematical sweet spot vs ba, even more than other lists. Cheap intercepting ias is just too much.

 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

Fair question.
BA Rhinos/Razorbacks/Landraiders take three turns to get Marines into melee, that means the Tau player can ignore them for at least two turns.
Bikes and Jump Packs are both in the fast attack slot meaning you need to take two troops for every four units.
BA don't have access to a Landspeeder that can transport and the rest take up fast attack slots.

If you use pods you can threaten with everything on turn two.

In Dawn of War or Vanguard Strike Orks can threaten with everything on turn one or threaten everything on turn two, it minimises cooperative overwatch, they're also attacking with a heap of small, cheap units that can still match or beat Fire Warriors or Drones in melee.

Overwhelming firepower meets overwhelming numbers.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

Fair question.
BA Rhinos/Razorbacks/Landraiders take three turns to get Marines into melee, that means the Tau player can ignore them for at least two turns.

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

morgoth wrote:

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

Turn one move and flat out
Turn two move and disembark
Turn three charge

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

Turn one move and flat out
Turn two move and disembark
Turn three charge

So three turns to locked in combat, 1.5 to destination.

Disembarking and not being able to charge straight away, especially with a lack of LoS-blocking terrain, is just ringing the dinner bell. Getting to your target in 1.5 turns means nothing if you have to wait around an extra turn to get shot to bits, especially Tau shooting. It's silly not to admit Martel has a very solid point when it comes to BA v Tau, especially on a parking lot.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Disembarking and not being able to charge straight away, especially with a lack of LoS-blocking terrain, is just ringing the dinner bell. Getting to your target in 1.5 turns means nothing if you have to wait around an extra turn to get shot to bits, especially Tau shooting. It's silly not to admit Martel has a very solid point when it comes to BA v Tau, especially on a parking lot.

It's not just tau however, that's literally the case for ANYTHING assault focused army vs any shooting focused army.

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

Fair question.
BA Rhinos/Razorbacks/Landraiders take three turns to get Marines into melee, that means the Tau player can ignore them for at least two turns.

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

Using the 1d4chan tactic I mentioned on turn 2 you would disembark and shoot with the tacs in transports while the jump packs charged into CC after. Then turn 3 the tacs could get into CC too. So it would be turn 2 charge for the jump packs and turn 3 charge for the rest.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Disembarking and not being able to charge straight away, especially with a lack of LoS-blocking terrain, is just ringing the dinner bell. Getting to your target in 1.5 turns means nothing if you have to wait around an extra turn to get shot to bits, especially Tau shooting. It's silly not to admit Martel has a very solid point when it comes to BA v Tau, especially on a parking lot.

It's not just tau however, that's literally the case for ANYTHING assault focused army vs any shooting focused army.

Well, most of the assault oriented armies use fast units like bikes and thunderwolves or assault vehicles. BA have jump packs unis, drop pods which are more effective than trukks or raiders, and a formation with terminators that can assault even if they arrive by deep strike. Problem with BA against shooty armies seems to be that their units are quite expensive which means no MSU style and they can only field deathstars that are not as effective as the SW ones.

Jump packs and pods are NOT more effective than raiders and trukks, that's the problem.

Yes, the whole BA codex is basically overcosted in the 7th ed meta. Some worse than others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SolarCross wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

Fair question.
BA Rhinos/Razorbacks/Landraiders take three turns to get Marines into melee, that means the Tau player can ignore them for at least two turns.

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

Using the 1d4chan tactic I mentioned on turn 2 you would disembark and shoot with the tacs in transports while the jump packs charged into CC after. Then turn 3 the tacs could get into CC too. So it would be turn 2 charge for the jump packs and turn 3 charge for the rest.

This doesn't work too well after you lose a couple of Rhinos.

Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

I hate that Martel has hijacked this into a BA discussion...
But I don't know how you couldn't be competitive with BA if you ran a
Fleshtearers Strike Force - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 1 Troop, 1 FA
Optional: 1 HQ, 3 Troops, 1 Elite, 5 FA, 3 HS, Fortification, 1 Lord of War

+ HQ +

········Captain [Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Power fist, Storm shield]

········Chaplain [Auspex, Crozius Arcanum, Power fist]

+ Elites +

········Command Squad
············Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
············Veteran [Bolt Pistol, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
············Veteran [Bolt Pistol, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
············Veteran [Bolt Pistol, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
············Company Champion
············Sanguinary Novitiate

+ Troops +

········Cassor the Damned [Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod]

········Tactical Squad [Flamer, 4x Tactical Marine]
············Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
············Tactical Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]

+ Fast Attack +

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

+ Heavy Support +

········Devastator Squad [4x Devastator Marine, 2x Grav-cannon with grav-amp, Rhino]
············Devastator Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Chainsword]

········Devastator Squad [4x Devastator Marine, 2x Grav-cannon with grav-amp, Rhino]
············Devastator Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Chainsword]

········Devastator Squad [4x Devastator Marine, 2x Grav-cannon with grav-amp]
············Devastator Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Well this is fuzzy actually.

Flamers and Blasts do not use the same rules for wound allocation. they differ. The ITC made a decision on this and so if you are playing in the ITC, they made them work the same. If you are not there actually IS a difference in how that works for blasts vs. Template weapons.

So It's easy to see how this debate gets started.

 Jancoran wrote:

My simple response is this: the "hate" isn't very well founded. What really happens is, people don't want to change . So they hate anything that makes them change. It isn't that Tau are any different than any other faction, its just that not taking the Tau abilities into account will definitely cause an opponent problems.

I personally have never used the Riptide Wing Formation. it is EXTREMELY good and probably the only thing i nthe codex that even DESERVES the hate, honestly. Even that Formation has the same achillese heel every Tau unit has: Not fearless, hates melee. So the formula for beating Tau hasn't changed since day one. Have Fast melee. If your opponent does not want to embrace this reality and pretends like "shooting is the only thing worth focusing on" well let them enjoy their dirt nap after playing you. But if they adjust, they will be just fine.

Play what you want. That's what I would tell you.

My simple response is that you are wrong.

Tau abilities: Overwhelming firepower, massed overwatch, ridiculously under priced MC and GMC units, army wide Ignores Cover.

How do I play? I have several different lists I love to use.
1: Kan Wall, 12 Kanz, 2 Dreadz and boyz/bikes in support
2: Speed Freak: LOTS of bikes MSU style with Pks and either Stormboyz or Boyz in Trukkz/BWs
3: Dakka Boyz: 5 Mek Gunz, Lootas, and maybe BWs with either Kill Kannons or Lobbas.
4: Foot sloggin: Lots and lots of cheap boyz models supported by MSU Bikes
5: Combinations of these.

So lets break this down, I always use terrain to my advantage because I have a 6+ armor save so DUH. Take that off your argument points list. Kan Wall won't function vs Tau because they will die en mass to SMS and missile pods not to mention Riptides. Plus they are slow and have short ranged weapons. So ALL my Walker are relegated to the Shelf vs Tau.

Speed Freaks: The only list that really stands a chance against Tau. I currently have 25 Bikes, soon to be 35. Running them MSU style either with Zhad as my warboss or using 2 CADS i can get 6 units of 4 bikes with 1 having 5 (Warboss/Zhad) The bikes and warboss eat up 750ish points and are supported by Boyz in Battle Wagons or Trukks depending on how I am feeling. The downside to this? Tau can delete 1-3 of my Bike squads PER TURN depending on their build. SMS, Ion Accelerator or even Massed Fire warriors can destroy bikes. The only success i have against Tau with this list is to HIDE EVERYTHING i can turn 1, Race up the field and hide again or flat out if I cant and then hope to god that the Tau don't eat my entire list in those 2 turns of shooting before I get a chance to retaliate. Once in Combat I have to ignore the riptides because the only model in each of those units who can do something to it is the PK Nob and with Over Watch, normal casualties and the Riptide getting to swing first I pretty much have to ensure that I hit a riptide with at least 2 units of boyz/bikes or it will win.

Dakka Boyz: Yeah instant lose. There's nothing that you can do versus tau with ork shooting.

Foot Sloggin.......not even funny. I have had a green tide eaten alive by Tau before it could cross the board.


So when you say change the way I play what you really mean is "I don't want to admit that my Army is OP as hell against the weaker factions and therefore I am going to give a lame version of L2P to justify my slaughter of Orks/BA/Nids."

Also, saying Riptides have the weakness of not having fearless is kind of lame in itself. they are LD 9. Try using a CC army that has LD 7 and get back to me. Plus, if you are really concerned that a riptide wing will run away or that the last riptide will need to roll Snake eyes to stay in combat you can always pay 3PTS to give it Heroic morale.

No, Tau deserve the hate they get, not because they force others to change the way they play, but because against an army that isnt in the TOP TIER its not really a game and more of a slaughter. Not to say that severely handicapped Tau lists are amazing but I have yet to play a game where my opponent didn't take at least 1 riptide and a squad of Missilesides.

Actually, you can deal with one Riptide and one squad of Missilesides with orks.

That said, don't try to reason Jancoran, I've tried before and the guy keeps on insisting that because he can beat worse players with bad lists using the best possible list etc. the army doesn't "suck".

He does that when you talk about any underdog, be it Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar, ... I think he likes the challenge - and that's fine - but doesn't understand that "barely playable" is very far from "on the same foot".

I can beat a single riptide and missilesides with BA, I'm not going to pretend I can't. Lascannons are actually useful vs missilesides.

morgoth wrote:
Actually, you can deal with one Riptide and one squad of Missilesides with orks.

That said, don't try to reason Jancoran, I've tried before and the guy keeps on insisting that because he can beat worse players with bad lists using the best possible list etc. the army doesn't "suck".

He does that when you talk about any underdog, be it Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar, ... I think he likes the challenge - and that's fine - but doesn't understand that "barely playable" is very far from "on the same foot".

lol, im sure any of my lists could easily beat a single riptide and a squad of missilesides, the problem is that they never come alone

My only success versus Tau (which is very little) has come against 1 new player and 2 other Tau players who the Dice god abandoned.

I know orks have a distinct lack of lascannons.

But orks do have tankbustas with S8 to kk it's (only AP2) and lootas. And power klaws

 Wolfblade wrote:
But orks do have tankbustas with S8 to kk it's (only AP2) and lootas. And power klaws

Tankbustas are armed with rokkitz S8 AP3 assault 1 Ranged 24. They are relatively cheap but they have 6+ armor and aren't worth shooting at MC. They also die to Tau EXTREMELY quickly and versus Riptides...yeah not worth it at all.

I don't know what KK is except Kan Klaws?

Lootas? S7 AP4 averaging 2 shots a turn and ranged 48, decent but again they die far to quickly verus Tau and can't do much versus Riptides or even Broadsides. PKs are great, just don't expect to ever use them.

May bad, should have been pk, stupid auto correct.

(Also, the rock it's really or he missilesides not the riptide.

Against a full in tourney list, orks will get crushed, but one riptide and missileside squad? That's a chance for the orks.

 Wolfblade wrote:
May bad, should have been pk, stupid auto correct.

(Also, the rock it's really or he missilesides not the riptide.

Against a full in tourney list, orks will get crushed, but one riptide and missileside squad? That's a chance for the orks.

True, but thats the problem....its a chance. I have to spam the best units in my codex (Warbikers) or at the least I have to play a specific way/field a specific build to have "a chance".

Against almost any faction orks can be a bit more picky with what they field. I have surprised a number of SM opponents with a Kan list. They spammed flamers and other anti-horde weapons and got stuck facing off against 12 kanz 2 dreadz and a Morkanaut. Against Tau there are no surprise lists, you either play the fastest MSU list possible or you lose.

That's a problem with the game though, or GW rather and their inability to balance anything. It's not inherently tau's fault that orks suck or BA suck. They'd have just as much trouble against SM/crons/eldar, possibly with less of a chance depending on the mission type.

I disagree. I don't struggle vs Crons nearly as much as Tau or Eldar. Tau have a pretty special niche with their cheap interceptor.

BA and Orks are assault armies in a shooting game.

GW could do one errata to help fix a lot of problems though and get rid of assault vehicles and just have all vehicles function as them so long as they do not come in via deep strike. suddenly those fast rhinos and BW would get ard tops and actually get those turn 2 assaults. Heck it would even buff some weaker units like banshees and khorne marines

morgoth wrote:
Actually, you can deal with one Riptide and one squad of Missilesides with orks.

That said, don't try to reason Jancoran, I've tried before and the guy keeps on insisting that because he can beat worse players with bad lists using the best possible list etc. the army doesn't "suck".

He does that when you talk about any underdog, be it Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar, ... I think he likes the challenge - and that's fine - but doesn't understand that "barely playable" is very far from "on the same foot".

To be fair, complaining about how unbalanced an army is won't change anything, but learning how to adapt to a changing meta/balance/list will actually achieve something. Some armies are easier to adapt with than others though.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
BA and Orks are assault armies in a shooting game.

I've been using Chaos for the past few months and just had my first game against Tau. Both of us made a couple mistakes, but despite some shocking Overwatch the Tau player called the game on turn two because everything was getting assaulted. The largest gun in my army is a Storm Bolter.

 Insectum7 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Actually, you can deal with one Riptide and one squad of Missilesides with orks.

That said, don't try to reason Jancoran, I've tried before and the guy keeps on insisting that because he can beat worse players with bad lists using the best possible list etc. the army doesn't "suck".

He does that when you talk about any underdog, be it Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar, ... I think he likes the challenge - and that's fine - but doesn't understand that "barely playable" is very far from "on the same foot".

To be fair, complaining about how unbalanced an army is won't change anything, but learning how to adapt to a changing meta/balance/list will actually achieve something. Some armies are easier to adapt with than others though.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
BA and Orks are assault armies in a shooting game.

I've been using Chaos for the past few months and just had my first game against Tau. Both of us made a couple mistakes, but despite some shocking Overwatch the Tau player called the game on turn two because everything was getting assaulted. The largest gun in my army is a Storm Bolter.

sounds like bad placement on your friend's part. against Chaos he should have been as far away as possible if you were mostly melee and have been moving away as things went. it also depends on your list though, if you are running 4 demon princes with 2++ rerollable then yes you will get there and wreck him, that is sort of a counter tau list.

I've been playing since 1985 and in all those years you always see the group of players who hate an army for cheese.....every edition.....every codex. It's always the same mentality and they hate when you disagree with them no matter how much sense you make.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Well this is fuzzy actually.

Flamers and Blasts do not use the same rules for wound allocation. they differ. The ITC made a decision on this and so if you are playing in the ITC, they made them work the same. If you are not there actually IS a difference in how that works for blasts vs. Template weapons.

So It's easy to see how this debate gets started.

There's still a definite contradiction in Barrage. A lot of people play the barrage rule of Line of Sight when allocating starts at the centre of the blast marker rather than the model that fired the blast. It's not hard for both players to overlook it - I lost a heap of Wolves to it about a month ago, didn't realise it for a turn and a half.

Here is a very friendly list

Cad------- farsighted enclaves

HQ: cadre fireblade: 60 points

Troops: crisis suit: 23 points

Troops: crisis suit: 23 points

Fast attack: y'hvara riptide with FNP: 265 points

Lord of war: tau'nar supremacy armor: 600 points

Riptide wing-----

Riptide with burst cannon, SMS and interceptor: 220 points

Riptide with burst cannon, SMS and interceptor: 220 points

Riptide with burst cannon and SMS: 215 points

Drone net----

4 squads of 4 marker drones: 224 points

This list is fairly fluffy and very friendly, it does alright though against wraith knight spam.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

sounds like bad placement on your friend's part. against Chaos he should have been as far away as possible if you were mostly melee and have been moving away as things went. it also depends on your list though, if you are running 4 demon princes with 2++ rerollable then yes you will get there and wreck him, that is sort of a counter tau list.

Nahh, just spells and some fast models. When you have units that can move 12, get moved 18 in the Psychic phase, and then run with taking the highest of 2d6, you can get anywhere on a 4x6 table pretty quickly.

 Jaxler wrote:
Here is a very friendly list

Cad------- farsighted enclaves

HQ: cadre fireblade: 60 points

Troops: crisis suit: 23 points

Troops: crisis suit: 23 points

Fast attack: y'hvara riptide with FNP: 265 points

Lord of war: tau'nar supremacy armor: 600 points

Riptide wing-----

Riptide with burst cannon, SMS and interceptor: 220 points

Riptide with burst cannon, SMS and interceptor: 220 points

Riptide with burst cannon and SMS: 215 points

Drone net----

4 squads of 4 marker drones: 224 points

This list is fairly fluffy and very friendly, it does alright though against wraith knight spam.

lol whut...

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Under blast it says it can wound and hit, then goes to say follow the rules for normal shooting. Which means out of LoS, no wound allocated.

How is the blast wound discussion related in any way to Tau non cheesy list construction.

Because if you're playing Tau you better be sure to know the rules for your most iconic weapon on your most iconic model.

SemperMortis wrote:

My simple response is that you are wrong.

Tau abilities: Overwhelming firepower, massed overwatch, ridiculously under priced MC and GMC units, army wide Ignores Cover.

How do I play? I have several different lists I love to use.
1: Kan Wall, 12 Kanz, 2 Dreadz and boyz/bikes in support
2: Speed Freak: LOTS of bikes MSU style with Pks and either Stormboyz or Boyz in Trukkz/BWs
3: Dakka Boyz: 5 Mek Gunz, Lootas, and maybe BWs with either Kill Kannons or Lobbas.
4: Foot sloggin: Lots and lots of cheap boyz models supported by MSU Bikes
5: Combinations of these.

I'm wrong? You think fast melee isn't the answer? You feel that Dirge Casters, Howling Banshees and expert use of terrain and the like wont mitigate these terrible things about the Tau Empire? and Ignores cover isnt army wide. it can be stopped and any Tau General will tell you to kill the Markerlight support early if youre gonna waste time shooting the Tau.

But lets go down the road of what if there was an answer to beating Tau Empire. Where might that take us? A more productive one, i imagine.

Kanwall: doomed against Tau Empire. Dont do it any more. If that change doesn't sit well with you, it illustrates my point. Kanwalls havent been good for a very long time and that's not likely to change. Tau Empire arent responsible for that sucking. So yeah. Not a Tau issue.

Speed Freak: LOTS of bikes MSU style with Pks and either Stormboyz or Boyz in Trukkz/BWs: Actually not a terrible ploy against Tau empire. Play the objectives and this will be tough for the Tau to stop. Obsec is a thing, and Orks who reserve their forces AND MSU Obsec can weather the storm plenty long enough to simply be too much to kill in too little a window. RESERVES. key words. Interceptor is done WITHOUT markerlight support in 80% of the Tau lists so its actually better to take it that way than to take it while they have the support. Tau arent that accurate without it. HOWEVER.... You aren't presenting enough of a melee threat in any one unit to take advantage of the Tau weaknesses here. You need to hit hard in melee against Riptides. That means Klaws. That means ablative wounds aplenty. Fast Melee is the only thing you can do that's going to work and its got to be convincing melee. It also happens to work against a lot of other enemies besides so there is literally no down side. I dont like small ork units though. they dont bring enough melee to the table to really be the answer. You need Meganobz and HQ's and the like in there, which means possibly multiple detachments to get them in there. I sue two CAD's so I can get the characters I want.

3: Dakka Boyz: 5 Mek Gunz, Lootas, and maybe BWs with either Kill Kannons or Lobbas. Doomed to failure. Agreed. Trying to outshoot the competitive Tau Empire simply wont succeed, and this does not qualify as fast melee.

4. Love it. Heres why: Even the most fearsome Tau force (Dual Surges, with Riptide Wing attached, and Markerlights with some dudes just loitering around otherwise) cannot kill enough, fast enough when you have that much obsec and that much of it is so dirt cheap. Killing everything on the board can be fun but it doesnt necessarily win Tau the tournament. I ran a list like this and it was excellent against Tau empire. The reason it worked is because i took Ten Meganobz to the party along with a flood of Gretchen and Orks, one Bike unit for ultra fast super duper punching and added the character to it. Three claws in the biker unit did WORK and KEPT doing work. Did he try to kill it. Obviously. Did i use terrain to hide on the approach in round one? Definitely. Surges dont overwatch and so it was basically just a couple Riptides overwatching. totally fine. the 2x7 lootas, which was essentially all the shooting i really had, was dedicated to punching out his Markerlight support but other than that, nothing much to do but watch the bikes rip things up and the horde run to catch up behind trukks that work EXTREMELY well when you kill the Markerlights. suddenly the cover matters.

This should not be taken as some false modesty about the Tau Empire. I already said that the Tau Empire is good. What i will not concede is that it deserves the level of hate it gets. thats what i disagree with,.

 Quickjager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Under blast it says it can wound and hit, then goes to say follow the rules for normal shooting. Which means out of LoS, no wound allocated.

That doesn't make much sense to me. I'll look again when i'm home.

Yea, it is a contradictory rule. There was big thread on it in YMDC, people never agreed in the end :\

I can see it going both ways honestly.

 Jancoran wrote:


I'm wrong? You think fast melee isn't the answer? You feel that Dirge Casters, Howling Banshees and expert use of terrain and the like wont mitigate these terrible things about the Tau Empire? and Ignores cover isnt army wide. it can be stopped and any Tau General will tell you to kill the Markerlight support early if youre gonna waste time shooting the Tau.

Nope, I agree fast melee is the only answer my Ork army has to Tau. Unfortunately, it doesn't work about 90% of the time because the Tau can still out shoot and out maneuver those lists because JSJ.

 Jancoran wrote:

But lets go down the road of what if there was an answer to beating Tau Empire. Where might that take us? A more productive one, i imagine.

Kanwall: doomed against Tau Empire. Dont do it any more. If that change doesn't sit well with you, it illustrates my point. Kanwalls havent been good for a very long time and that's not likely to change. Tau Empire arent responsible for that sucking. So yeah. Not a Tau issue.

I agreed from the start that ALL Ork walkers are doomed against Tau. I still use it occasionally against other factions for the surprise factor and the target saturation factor. Its not that the change doesn't sit well with me its the fact that the Tau have literally removed 3 different units from my codex because they just won't function at all against them.

 Jancoran wrote:
Speed Freak: LOTS of bikes MSU style with Pks and either Stormboyz or Boyz in Trukkz/BWs: Actually not a terrible ploy against Tau empire. Play the objectives and this will be tough for the Tau to stop. Obsec is a thing, and Orks who reserve their forces AND MSU Obsec can weather the storm plenty long enough to simply be too much to kill in too little a window. RESERVES. key words. Interceptor is done WITHOUT markerlight support in 80% of the Tau lists so its actually better to take it that way than to take it while they have the support. Tau arent that accurate without it. HOWEVER.... You aren't presenting enough of a melee threat in any one unit to take advantage of the Tau weaknesses here. You need to hit hard in melee against Riptides. That means Klaws. That means ablative wounds aplenty. Fast Melee is the only thing you can do that's going to work and its got to be convincing melee. It also happens to work against a lot of other enemies besides so there is literally no down side. I dont like small ork units though. they dont bring enough melee to the table to really be the answer. You need Meganobz and HQ's and the like in there, which means possibly multiple detachments to get them in there. I sue two CAD's so I can get the characters I want.

You can't play the objective against Tau with this list unless you are running Zhadsnarks Biker boyz and are spamming MSU Bikes everywhere because if you try to outlast Tau with only 6 units of bikes and 4-6 units of boyz in Trukkz/BWs your going to last about 2-3 turns at most. Durability is a thing and Orks DO NOT HAVE IT. Yes the entire Tau faction has Ignores cover because markerlights, and since theres literally no chance of me getting rid of them all because Orks suck at shooting and my bikes are trying to hide I will be getting lit up with ignores cover weapons, most of which are at least AP4 so no saves of any kind.

 Jancoran wrote:
3: Dakka Boyz: 5 Mek Gunz, Lootas, and maybe BWs with either Kill Kannons or Lobbas. Doomed to failure. Agreed. Trying to outshoot the competitive Tau Empire simply wont succeed, and this does not qualify as fast melee.

I agreed from the start, so thats why I don't try to out shoot Tau. So I "changed" one of the ways I play because i know I won't ever win with it against Tau.

 Jancoran wrote:
4. Love it. Heres why: Even the most fearsome Tau force (Dual Surges, with Riptide Wing attached, and Markerlights with some dudes just loitering around otherwise) cannot kill enough, fast enough when you have that much obsec and that much of it is so dirt cheap. Killing everything on the board can be fun but it doesnt necessarily win Tau the tournament. I ran a list like this and it was excellent against Tau empire. The reason it worked is because i took Ten Meganobz to the party along with a flood of Gretchen and Orks, one Bike unit for ultra fast super duper punching and added the character to it. Three claws in the biker unit did WORK and KEPT doing work. Did he try to kill it. Obviously. Did i use terrain to hide on the approach in round one? Definitely. Surges dont overwatch and so it was basically just a couple Riptides overwatching. totally fine. the 2x7 lootas, which was essentially all the shooting i really had, was dedicated to punching out his Markerlight support but other than that, nothing much to do but watch the bikes rip things up and the horde run to catch up behind trukks that work EXTREMELY well when you kill the Markerlights. suddenly the cover matters.

That simply wouldn't happen. A surge can pretty much annihilate a mob of boyz in 1 turn, a Riptide wing which can shoot at different targets can easily decimate the rest of the Foot sloggin boyz which leaves just the MSU bikes and specialist squads alive and they won't last past turn 2. Meganobz are utter trash versus Tau, Tau can choose to either drown them in weight of fire or AP2 weapons.

 Jancoran wrote:
This should not be taken as some false modesty about the Tau Empire. I already said that the Tau Empire is good. What i will not concede is that it deserves the level of hate it gets. thats what i disagree with,.

Nope, they deserve that level of hate because as mentioned above with my anecdotal evidence, I have yet to come across a Tau player who doesn't bring at least 1-2 broken units. Most of them love to brag about how great they are at the game when for them its literally a game of sitting in the back of the table and remove units.

A Stormsurge is very innacurate without Markerlight support. Also, shutting it up with Bikers and three Klaws gets the job done. Space the characters out though so stomps cant get am all at once.

You can hate the Tau Empire all you like. The original poster should keep in mind that the orks arent one ofthe stronger codex's to begin with so to some extent, the hate depends entirely on what people choose to play. Dont let that discourage you.

The Tau Empire suffered for a very long time in the basement of 40K and I won with it then. Its truly become effective now and I play it now.

Bring the Greater Goods shining light to the universe!

 Jancoran wrote:
A Stormsurge is very innacurate without Markerlight support. Also, shutting it up with Bikers and three Klaws gets the job done. Space the characters out though so stomps cant get am all at once.

You can hate the Tau Empire all you like. The original poster should keep in mind that the orks arent one ofthe stronger codex's to begin with so to some extent, the hate depends entirely on what people choose to play. Dont let that discourage you.

The Tau Empire suffered for a very long time in the basement of 40K and I won with it then. Its truly become effective now and I play it now.

Bring the Greater Goods shining light to the universe!

The problem is getting them there. 3 PK Nobz or 1 Nob and 2 ICs with PKs in a Warbike squad or Nob bike squad = Primary target. 3 PK nobz without any other models to be ablative wounds is 210pts, for 3 models with T5 6Ws total and 4+ save no ++ or +++. yeah nah, not worth it.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Play without makerlights, then tau is fine.

That's like telling a Marine to play without chapter tactics or Gaurd to play without orders. Doable but really why?

Because he asked for Tau minus the cheese, and markerlights break all sorts of rules in the game, and make cover irrelevant.

Marker lights are not more cheesy than SM chapter tactics, Guard orders, ad mech canticles of the ommissiah / doctina imperitives. I'd take guard orders over markerlights anyday.

Guard can also negate cover using their orders and do alot more besides. Silent ignores cover exists on every close combat weapon in the game which is why tau really could use some means of putting ignores cover on their shooting because of all the factions they are the worse for CC.

I think sometimes people just cry cheese because they can't play for gak and can't admit it.

How would you make Tau balanced then? Skip the Kroot? LOL
I would freaking play guardsmen ANY day instead of marker spam gunlines. Its not a question of individual effectiveness of said unit, its about synergy, the cheesy kind of synergy.

I think sometimes people have their head too far up their rear to figure out what has the potential to be cheese and should avoid debating the subject alltogether.

It still comes down to Riptides and Stormsurges being undercosted. Period.

I wouldnt mind playing against riptides and stormsuges, if markerlight werent in it or being used alot. Hence making Tau minus the cheese.

The units with markerlights are mortal. The Riptides and Stormsurges can't be engaged with a remotely reasonable points cost of models for Orks or BA. You might be able to outscore them, but they're more likely to table you. I'd have to fight the tau at 1.25:1 or 1.5:1 pts to clear enough melee power to win. Tau are the defender every battle, and typically that alone is a 1.5X force multiplier.

Everything in warhammer is mortal. Just as tau are really crap in melee right... Just never get there, full BS overwatch support fire.

And yes tides and surges are overpowered/priced, but without marker spam atleast there is a chance, maybe even if he gets first turn.

I'd rather the Riptides/Stormsurges just cost a lot more as they should.

Riptides/Stormsurges are actually quite good in melee as well. You can't just send any old unit to take them out. Riptides beat the gak out my premiere CC units. Of course, my units aren't named TWC or Wulfen, so what did I expect?

As shameful as it is, BA are just terrible at fast melee in 7th ed. I guess that's just the reality here.

"Everything in warhammer is mortal."

If something takes 10X its point cost in resources to take out, it's effectively immortal. Because you lose the game trying to take it out.

Indeed they should, and as such imbalanced pricepoint wouldnt you rather meet them without markerlights support atleast? Or you dont belive markerlights makes any difference and you just kill the ML's off easely when its your turn?


Blood Angels, yeah, GW could have done a better job to say the least.

I target ML with everything every turn. Shooting their MCs is a waste. They are effectively immortal, regardless of what Tau players say. Do the math on them. It's nuts. You can't drop pod them. They'll just intercept you. Unfortunately, regular marine units kind of suck at shooting on a per point basis, so this doesn't really work too well, either.

BA should counter these fethers by being fast melee. But instead, we just get our faces shot off because marines have the durability of grots vs Tau. We don't have T5 multiple wound cavalry or invisibility or cheap invuln saves, so we're fethed. There is one specific BA build that does okay that involves a ton of lucius pods and dreads. But I'm not building that for the waning days of 7th. I'll just hope that GW does take a gak on me again in 8th.

Markerlights make a difference, but again, these can be removed from the table by reasonable use of force. They are much more vulnerable to assault than the MCs.

Last I played the game (a while back, mind you) the worst that Tau could bring to the table was the Riptide Wing/Stormsurge/Coordinated Fire without ITC nerfs (Coordinated Fire apparently got an official FAQ nerf at a later point while I was gone). As long as you don't bring those units or play with those rules, you should be fine for most games. You might want to bring a more sub-optimal list for facing certain factions or against certain players, like I was doing with my Eldar.

SemperMortis wrote:

Nope, I agree fast melee is the only answer my Ork army has to Tau. Unfortunately, it doesn't work about 90% of the time because the Tau can still out shoot and out maneuver those lists because JSJ.

It depends on how the Tau player is set up. If he's castled in a corner, thanks to Supporting Fire you are toast (bonus cheese points if he hides behind a Void Shield Generator). If he has his units more spread out across multiple objectives and/or has stuff hiding in reserves, you can rapidly pac-man your way through his more isolated units in melee. Thing is, you'll need multiple fast melee units or he can just play "avoid the deathstar" while shooting you to pieces all game.

Basically, don't play Tau with the standard book missions. Maelstrom or a modified version of such is the way to go; it makes the Tau player spread his units out and actually move or he'll lose on objectives.

SemperMortis wrote:
I agreed from the start that ALL Ork walkers are doomed against Tau. I still use it occasionally against other factions for the surprise factor and the target saturation factor. Its not that the change doesn't sit well with me its the fact that the Tau have literally removed 3 different units from my codex because they just won't function at all against them.

Believe me, it wasn't just Tau that made massed Ork walkers irrelevant. I once played my friendly Eldar list against a guy running a Kan Wall (possibly some dataslate or formation). It tabled him in three turns. And let's not even begin to discuss what even the most basic of Necron lists does to Kans...

SemperMortis wrote:
You can't play the objective against Tau with this list unless you are running Zhadsnarks Biker boyz and are spamming MSU Bikes everywhere because if you try to outlast Tau with only 6 units of bikes and 4-6 units of boyz in Trukkz/BWs your going to last about 2-3 turns at most. Durability is a thing and Orks DO NOT HAVE IT. Yes the entire Tau faction has Ignores cover because markerlights, and since theres literally no chance of me getting rid of them all because Orks suck at shooting and my bikes are trying to hide I will be getting lit up with ignores cover weapons, most of which are at least AP4 so no saves of any kind.

It depends on the markerlight source and how many markerlight sources the Tau player brought. A Mark'O Commander will pump out enough markerlights to bring most any deathstar to its knees, but will struggle against MSU unless he has redundant sources for markerlights.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
4. Love it. Heres why: Even the most fearsome Tau force (Dual Surges, with Riptide Wing attached, and Markerlights with some dudes just loitering around otherwise) cannot kill enough, fast enough when you have that much obsec and that much of it is so dirt cheap. Killing everything on the board can be fun but it doesnt necessarily win Tau the tournament. I ran a list like this and it was excellent against Tau empire. The reason it worked is because i took Ten Meganobz to the party along with a flood of Gretchen and Orks, one Bike unit for ultra fast super duper punching and added the character to it. Three claws in the biker unit did WORK and KEPT doing work. Did he try to kill it. Obviously. Did i use terrain to hide on the approach in round one? Definitely. Surges dont overwatch and so it was basically just a couple Riptides overwatching. totally fine. the 2x7 lootas, which was essentially all the shooting i really had, was dedicated to punching out his Markerlight support but other than that, nothing much to do but watch the bikes rip things up and the horde run to catch up behind trukks that work EXTREMELY well when you kill the Markerlights. suddenly the cover matters.

That simply wouldn't happen. A surge can pretty much annihilate a mob of boyz in 1 turn, a Riptide wing which can shoot at different targets can easily decimate the rest of the Foot sloggin boyz which leaves just the MSU bikes and specialist squads alive and they won't last past turn 2. Meganobz are utter trash versus Tau, Tau can choose to either drown them in weight of fire or AP2 weapons.

To be fair, the Tau player Jancoran fought against in this example wasn't applying his firepower very intelligently. That unit of Lootas should have been ctrl+alt+deleted by the Stormsurge in the first Tau shooting phase, or at least made to run. With the best Ork shooting unit negated, the Riptide Wing goes all-in on the Biker unit it is dead. Stormsurge hoses the rest of the list down.

SemperMortis wrote:
Nope, they deserve that level of hate because as mentioned above with my anecdotal evidence, I have yet to come across a Tau player who doesn't bring at least 1-2 broken units. Most of them love to brag about how great they are at the game when for them its literally a game of sitting in the back of the table and remove units.

Alternatively, fight fire with fire. Tau player wants to bring a Stormsurge? You can bring out a Stompa and enough Ork bodies to fill the points difference. Tau player busts out a Riptide Wing? Bring whatever crazy formation you want. Tau player refuses to a little army parity adjustment? Don't play him.

If the Tau players on here are to be believed, there are Tau players who don't take the most OP cheese units to every fight.

I'm still looking for my crazy formations... I've got like 20-25 mediocre ones.

I own IKs, but they are joke compared to undercosted Tau MCs. I would rarely ever use an IK in a general list. They are too fragile/pt.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still looking for my crazy formations... I've got like 20-25 mediocre ones.

I own IKs, but they are joke compared to undercosted Tau MCs. I would rarely ever use an IK in a general list. They are too fragile/pt.

Sounds like its time to bust out Ye Olde Apocalypse Rules to find something truly crazy for Blood Angels. After all, just because it isn't tournament legal doesn't mean it can't be used in casual play if your opponent consents.

Nah I mostly do tourney preps for the other guys. I don't have time. Or an army, really.

Stompa is another Ork walker....it doesn't function in even remotely competitive environments. 770pts for an AV13 12HP walker that has 1 good weapon and a bunch of crappy ones.

Ohh an for that 770pts it doesn't even get a fething Invul save. Of course I could take a big mek and give him the MFF so the Stompa has a 4++....of course thats another 100pts added to the already over priced Stompa that doesn't bring much to the table to begin with.

Orks have zero answers to Tau Cheese. We have a chance of winning with speed freak lists but that is about it.

Martel732 wrote:
It still comes down to Riptides and Stormsurges being undercosted. Period.

The stormsurge is 440 points in its optimal form. Saying thats undercosted with t6 and only 3+ armor is crazy. Effective? Yeah, like every 440 point unit its good. But its very far from unkillable like some comparable units can become. Nope. Wulfen, at 440? Oh hell yeah. Thundercavalry? Ig blobs with psyker/priests? Renegade Knights with void shield support. The list goes on.

T6 and 3+ armor says no.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It still comes down to Riptides and Stormsurges being undercosted. Period.

The stormsurge is 440 points in its optimal form. Saying thats undercosted with t6 and only 3+ armor is crazy. Effective? Yeah, like every 440 point unit its good. But its very far from unkillable like some comparable units can become. Nope. Wulfen, at 440? Oh hell yeah. Thundercavalry? Ig blobs with psyker/priests? Renegade Knights with void shield support. The list goes on.

T6 and 3+ armor says no.

You forgot to mention the 5+++ FnP that come standard for GMC.

But even at 8 wounds, 3+/4++/5+++ seems somewhat vulnerable at 440 pts, so I don't disagree with your conclusion...

I can still note that Stormsurges aren't limited in their firepower until their last wound is removed, while multi-model units like Wulfen and Thundercav have their effectiveness reduced for ever 1 or 2 wounds they fail, as a benefit to fielding Stormsurges/Riptides/etc., right?



Edit: to address the OP: avoid netlists, and you've got a decent chance of avoiding the worst of the worst in terms of cheese.

If you really need to avoid cheese, take no more than 1 of any unit, not counting Troops, with the important caveat that you avoid multi-model Stormsurge units.

1 Stormsurge and 1 Riptide is potent but not gamebreaking. 2 Stormsurge and 3 Riptides can be problematic, so, y'know, don't do that gak.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still looking for my crazy formations... I've got like 20-25 mediocre ones.

I own IKs, but they are joke compared to undercosted Tau MCs. I would rarely ever use an IK in a general list. They are too fragile/pt.

Sounds like its time to bust out Ye Olde Apocalypse Rules to find something truly crazy for Blood Angels. After all, just because it isn't tournament legal doesn't mean it can't be used in casual play if your opponent consents.

We're allowed to use Apoc formations?
Since when?
Didn't read that properly.

The D Missles of a Stormsurge are single use, they only need realistically 1 turn to earn their points back, any survivability or melee ability is just a bonus.

The offensive power of a Stormsurge is ridiculous for its cost, the fact that it has just enough durability to use it almost guaranteed every-time is what makes it broken. If the Stormsurge was ANY more survivable you would see people start taking the D-Shotgun and have in march up the field.

 Quickjager wrote:
The D Missles of a Stormsurge are single use, they only need realistically 1 turn to earn their points back, any survivability or melee ability is just a bonus.

The offensive power of a Stormsurge is ridiculous for its cost, the fact that it has just enough durability to use it almost guaranteed every-time is what makes it broken. If the Stormsurge was ANY more survivable you would see people start taking the D-Shotgun and have in march up the field.

It requires surviving markerlights to activate the D nature of their missiles. It requires being within 10" (after the 12" move phase movement) to be within the D Shotgun range.

Beyond that, it requires targets worthy of a D weapon for the Stormsurge's D weaponry to be worthwhile - not a guarantee by any means.

Stormsurges wouldnt even BE necessary in any list if people werent taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, Storm lords, Buzzgobs version of a stompa, Magnus, Belakor and the list goes on. But they do. The Stormsurge isnt the issue at 440. The claim that its undercosted is simply absurd. Its not only expensive but it relies on YET more points, no less than 8 Drones hitting to maximize its potential, as others pointed out.

Riptide Wing is kinda nuts. Its one Formation. Just dont use that formation as I have chosen to do and you will be fine.

I wish we could just play the game and bask in how awesome it is instead of always ending up in...this... place. oh well

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurges wouldnt even BE necessary in any list if people werent taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, Storm lords, Buzzgobs version of a stompa, Magnus, Belakor and the list goes on. But they do. The Stormsurge isnt the issue at 440. The claim that its undercosted is simply absurd. Its not only expensive but it relies on YET more points, no less than 8 Drones hitting to maximize its potential, as others pointed out.

Riptide Wing is kinda nuts. Its one Formation. Just dont use that formation as I have chosen to do and you will be fine.

I wish we could just play the game and bask in how awesome it is instead of always ending up in...this... place. oh well

The thing is, we don't disagree - if there weren't targets worthy of the D the Stormsurge has access to, the Stormsurge wouldn't be considered so potent in the first place.

But frankly, ignoring the reality that is the Riptide wing (or dismissing it as "its one Formation" as if that changes its prevalence in the overarching reality of gaming in WH40k), even when one doesn't individually exploit the blantent potency of the formation... is just... I dunno, it just seems silly.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It still comes down to Riptides and Stormsurges being undercosted. Period.

The stormsurge is 440 points in its optimal form. Saying thats undercosted with t6 and only 3+ armor is crazy. Effective? Yeah, like every 440 point unit its good. But its very far from unkillable like some comparable units can become. Nope. Wulfen, at 440? Oh hell yeah. Thundercavalry? Ig blobs with psyker/priests? Renegade Knights with void shield support. The list goes on.

T6 and 3+ armor says no.

All of those things should also probably cost more as well. TWC: way undercosted. IG psykers: undercosted. Wuflen: WAY undercosted. Void shields: undercosted.

I say yes despite T6 and 3+ armor because GMC USRs are so damned obnoxious as are its weapons systems. 440 is a joke for a GMC, just as 295 is. GMCs have layered saves you can't get rid of. It's also got what? 8 wounds? Not every 440 pt unit is remotely this good. You specifically cherry picked up other undercosted units to compare it to. I can't field anything remotely as effective for 440, nor can Orks, for example.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurges wouldnt even BE necessary in any list if people werent taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, Storm lords, Buzzgobs version of a stompa, Magnus, Belakor and the list goes on. But they do. The Stormsurge isnt the issue at 440. The claim that its undercosted is simply absurd. Its not only expensive but it relies on YET more points, no less than 8 Drones hitting to maximize its potential, as others pointed out.

Riptide Wing is kinda nuts. Its one Formation. Just dont use that formation as I have chosen to do and you will be fine.

I wish we could just play the game and bask in how awesome it is instead of always ending up in...this... place. oh well

Because it's not awesome. It's okayish. Because GW has no math skills. Trying to say the thing is fair at 440 is freaking nuts. You're just spoiled by 7th ed undercosted GMCs and MCs. Miscosted units get spammed and abused.

"taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, "

These units are terrible compared to GMCs of the same cost or cheaper. That's my point. Oh noes I've got to inflict 6 12 AV glances. Whatever shall I do? IKs are so fragile as to *almost* be a liability. Their pricing does not line up with MCs/GMCs.

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurges wouldnt even BE necessary in any list if people werent taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, Storm lords, Buzzgobs version of a stompa, Magnus, Belakor and the list goes on. But they do. The Stormsurge isnt the issue at 440. The claim that its undercosted is simply absurd. Its not only expensive but it relies on YET more points, no less than 8 Drones hitting to maximize its potential, as others pointed out.

Riptide Wing is kinda nuts. Its one Formation. Just dont use that formation as I have chosen to do and you will be fine.

I wish we could just play the game and bask in how awesome it is instead of always ending up in...this... place. oh well

honestly buzzgob's stompa is about how much a stompa should cost but is forced to take subpar weapons. gaze is cool and all but hitting on 5's, can pay 100 points for another gun beyond big shootas, and while it can do some dmg in close combat with d and stomps av13 and having to pay to get any kind of inv save on top of its price makes it. nice but not on the same level as the more points efficient titans and GMC. personally I prefer a custom stompa but it gets up to around 855 points before kff, mekz, and lootaz with meks. I go flame belcha, head, tccw, deffcannon w/ supergatler, deth arsenal, power field, repair crew, supercharger, 2x tl shootas all in he runs over 1k but always a laugh on the table throwing out ungodly firepower and if my opponent is smart just completely ignored whiel the res tof my army disappers (and they try and stay out of LOS).

We wont agree and thats fine. 440 is not an unfair price for it. Sorry. You can pop 8 wounds on it in one turn. Its been done many times, with far less impressive units pulling the trigger.

Tau Empire is strong and you need to take its strength into account. Claiming you cant beat it is simply absurd. As a started this conversation and will repeat here: the enemy has necessitated it in Tau lists, not the other way around. And fast melee is your answer. embrace it or suffer the consequences. Even Blood Angels can deep strike terminators in on it and charge the round they show up. So other than an unwillingness to change, I think we will just have to disagree. This is kind of going nowhere and its just becoming a "uh huh" and then "nuh uh" situation. No winning on this one.

Deep striking a terrible unit (45ppm, really?), getting intercepted, and then trying to assault is not a solution to Tau empire. It's not unwillingness to change, it's that your proposed solution does not work in practice. It's not as simple as "fast melee". It has be cost effective, high durability/pt fast melee. Some lists just don't have this. I guess I'm expected to stick Celestine out in front of a squad at this point.

"You can pop 8 wounds on it in one turn. Its been done many times, with far less impressive units pulling the trigger. "

The odds are heavily against this for most lists. Layered saves that can not be removed are brutal. We're talking 43 B4 melta shots or lascannon shots to kill it one turn. Or 8 relentless grav cannons. This is why Tau gets hate that you don't understand. For 440. 43 lascannons or 8 grav cannons. 440. We have very different definitions of fair.

I've beaten Tau, but only through ridiculous, unreproduceable luck, or with lists that aren't practical vs the field.

"Tau Empire is strong and you need to take its strength into account"

If I had choices that let me do that, I would. But I can't manage a 440 pt unit that sucks up 43 lascannons/8 grav cannons/100's of CC attacks.

6x Grav Cannons with rerolls to hit. Not that tall of an order.

Any kind of fast psychic deathstar will also crush a Stormsurge.

I don't know why you even bother listing Lascannons. You know they don't work right? You've done the math. That's why tourney BA players bring things like Meph and Lib Dreads to deal with GMCs, alongside Relentless Grav.

Not even Eldar is consistently bringing mono-faction lists this point. Allies are a necessity at this point.

Your refrain "why even play BA with allies" -- that's TRUE. Tourney players aren't fluff/faction snobs, and that's why players don't always play hardcore meta games.

"6x Grav Cannons with rerolls to hit. Not that tall of an order. "

I wouldn't say that, but okay.

I've never understood the fascination with lib dreads because they are very expensive and die very quickly.

All of the ally combos ever won't make 440 a fair price for a Stormsurge. Nor will it make 200 whatever fair for a Riptide. They need to be significantly more expensive to reflect their capabilities better.

How expensive are 43 Lascannons?

The difference is a Lib Dread can actually kill something if it makes CC.

Yoyoyo wrote:
How expensive are 43 Lascannons?

The difference is a Lib Dread can actually kill something if it makes CC.

I don't even know how to get 43 lascannons on the table.

That's a HUGE if, because everyone knows it's dangerous. It and its big ol 3 hull points. I can understand the concern if they had a more reasonable number like 6 hull points. That would make them more on par with MCs in terms of durability.

Librarian Dreadnaught: Can’t cast powers in a vehicle, so be wary of that. But he is the bane of monstrous creatures with his Force weapon. I have seen people drop this guy down near some stormsurges then completely annihilate them in CC

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/12/10/space-marinesfast-attack-lucius-pattern-dreadnaught-droppod/

I don't know what to say Martel. You probably know you are stubborn as hell. Either try new stuff, or don't. It's your 40k, after all.

Biker librarian with force axe and psychic shriek attached to a minimal scout biker squad is the neatest way for a space marine to kill a riptide / surge (or other tough MC). Scout bikers are LoS meat shields that give the lib Scout to help him gain position. The bike helps survivability T+1 + Jink and more importantly mobility to enable him to get within 18" of the beast for psychic shriek. Psy shriek auto-hits ignores toughness, armour save, cover saves, fnp and inv and has the potential to do up to 9 wounds to a riptide in a single casting. If you roll low and it does nothing then you slap force on your axe and charge in. Instant death on your ap2 weapon means you only have to do 1 unsaved wound to kill it. The unit comes in tons cheaper too pointwise.

Sadly BA don't have direct access to Psychic Shriek, but then allies for any IoM are an easy thing.

Also Toughness is approximately equal to AV - 4 so T6 is only equivalent to about AV10 (except even S3 can wound T6 whereas AV10 is immune to S3 while at the other end S9+ wounds T6 on a 2+ but auto-glances AV10).

An AV12 front Dread in CC is equivalent to T8, an AV13 Dread is T9.

I've tried a bunch of new stuff. I guess financially speaking and thematically speaking, I'm drawing the line at dreadnoughts cowering in FW pods. I'm still not convinced that this flavor-of-the-week scheme won't be shut down by minor meta adjustments, either. It's still just a bunch of hp 3 vehicles at the end of the day. No saves, much less layered saves. I've fought against lucius pods and didn't find them that hard to deal with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SolarCross wrote:
Biker librarian with force axe and psychic shriek attached to a minimal scout biker squad is the neatest way for a space marine to kill a riptide / surge (or other tough MC). Scout bikers are LoS meat shields that give the lib Scout to help him gain position. The bike helps survivability T+1 + Jink and more importantly mobility to enable him to get within 18" of the beast for psychic shriek. Psy shriek auto-hits ignores toughness, armour save, cover saves, fnp and inv and has the potential to do up to 9 wounds to a riptide in a single casting. If you roll low and it does nothing then you slap force on your axe and charge in. Instant death on your ap2 weapon means you only have to do 1 unsaved wound to kill it. The unit comes in tons cheaper too pointwise.

Sadly BA don't have direct access to Psychic Shriek, but then allies for any IoM are an easy thing.

Also Toughness is approximately equal to AV - 4 so T6 is only equivalent to about AV10 (except even S3 can wound T6 whereas AV10 is immune to S3 while at the other end S9+ wounds T6 on a 2+ but auto-glances AV10).

But T6 magically stops something from being doubled out by anything in game, which makes the FNP unremovable. T6 is leagues better than AV 10, especially when layered saves come into the picture. Toughness is much better than AV because of saves. S3 CAN wound T6, but is very unlikely to do through the armor saves.

Martel732 wrote:


But T6 magically stops something from being doubled out by anything in game, which makes the FNP unremovable. T6 is leagues better than AV 10, especially when layered saves come into the picture. Toughness is much better than AV because of saves. S3 CAN wound T6, but is very unlikely to do through the armor saves.

T6 does not stop instant death only it prevents instant death from double strength weapons. Instant Death from Force still kills T6+ and denies FnP. Against Force on a ap2 weapon the riptide only has its inv to prevent losing all its wounds at once.

Force does nothing at all to AV. AV can take some saves: inv and cover saves. They don't get an armour save but that is moot in most cases as high AP weapons (bolters and lasguns) usually can't harm them at all because of their are low strength or because high strength weapons usually are also low AP which would ignore even good armour saves (like 3+ / 2+) anyway. AV is only worse than equivalent Toughness against middling strength weapons with modest or no AP: autocannons & multilasers. That said vehicles tend to have higher AV than MC toughness. An Av 14 Landraider is like T10.

 SolarCross wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


But T6 magically stops something from being doubled out by anything in game, which makes the FNP unremovable. T6 is leagues better than AV 10, especially when layered saves come into the picture. Toughness is much better than AV because of saves. S3 CAN wound T6, but is very unlikely to do through the armor saves.

T6 does not stop instant death only it prevents instant death from double strength weapons. Instant Death from Force still kills T6+ and denies FnP. Against Force on a ap2 weapon the riptide only has its inv to prevent losing all its wounds at once.

Force does nothing at all to AV. AV can take some saves: inv and cover saves. They don't get an armour save but that is moot in most cases as high AP weapons (bolters and lasguns) usually can't harm them at all because of their are low strength or because high strength weapons usually are also low AP which would ignore even good armour saves (like 3+ / 2+) anyway. AV is only worse than equivalent Toughness against middling strength weapons with modest or no AP: autocannons & multilasers. That said vehicles tend to have higher AV than MC toughness. An Av 14 Landraider is like T10.

Good luck getting your force weapon to a Stormsurge or Riptide. Most deathstars even buckle to Tau shooting. And you can guess what their target will be.
Whenever I use a list with librarians vs Tau, they are the first things to die. Frequently before they even get to move if Tau get first turn.

Not having an armor save on AV is crippling. I don't know what game you've been playing, but non-free vehicles are basically garbage now. Your AV 14 LR is by far the worst unit in my codex.

Martel732 wrote:

Not having an armor save on AV is crippling. I don't know what game you've been playing, but non-free vehicles are basically garbage now. Your AV 14 LR is by far the worst unit in my codex.

That is because 90% of players play Space Marines so if you are going to play 40k 90% of your opponents will have AV on anything tougher than infantry and no MC at all. So it makes sense to maximise on melta/armourbane/High RoF S6-8 meagre AP shooting and leave all the MC hunting tricks at home. Certainly for a TAC list. Tau MC are not cheese they are just meta-resistant.

 SolarCross wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Not having an armor save on AV is crippling. I don't know what game you've been playing, but non-free vehicles are basically garbage now. Your AV 14 LR is by far the worst unit in my codex.

That is because 90% of players play Space Marines so if you are going to play 40k 90% of your opponents will have AV on anything tougher than infantry and no MC at all. So it makes sense to maximise on melta/armourbane/High RoF S6-8 meagre AP shooting and leave all the MC hunting tricks at home. Certainly for a TAC list. Tau MC are not cheese they are just meta-resistant.

I play against lots of MCs all the time. They are far more troublesome than any vehicle. I maximize my MC killing power, and still usually fail. Because wants BA to carry melta. For their cost, Tau MCs are super cheese. They are far too cheap.

Martel732 wrote:
Good luck getting your force weapon to a Stormsurge or Riptide. Most deathstars even buckle to Tau shooting.

No, they don't.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/03/40k-tournament-championship-top-16-lists.html

Two Riptide Wings allied into other armies, no Stormsurge, no Tau primaries.

How many psychic armies do you see? Screamerstar took the win btw.

Martel732 wrote:
All of those things should also probably cost more as well. TWC: way undercosted. IG psykers: undercosted. Wuflen: WAY undercosted. Void shields: undercosted

I'd agree on every other example you mention, but as for the IG psykers bit... are you sure about that?

50 points for a T3 W2 model with a 5+/5++, for 50 points. Yep, a warp charge, a primaris power plus one randomly generated power, but for another 25 points you can obtain, get this, another warp charge and another randomly generated power! What a steal! Those librarians and their power armor and their bikes don't stand a chance against the undercosted-ness of the Primaris Psyker!

Seriously, IG's HQ psykers are balanced, if not just a little overcosted. They are very expensive given how incredibly fragile they are, but are generally effective force multipliers. It doesn't make guardsmen they buff way OTT OP though. It's still mostly just lasgun shots. Except those rare occasions where they sometimes Rend (and do you really think giving IG infantry an option to deal with those crazy tough MCs is really gamebreaking? Or maybe those occasions where you can get that 4++ on a blob. Regular guardsmen getting a 50/50 non-rerollable save (unless you're in combat and you get a priest hymn off, which is actually fairly difficult to accomplish)? Inconceivably cheesy, am I right? Guardsmen should come off the table as soon as the opponent looks at them funny, right?

Unless you're referring to the Elites choice Wyrdvane Psykers, in which case I'm not even sure where to begin.

 KommissarKiln wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All of those things should also probably cost more as well. TWC: way undercosted. IG psykers: undercosted. Wuflen: WAY undercosted. Void shields: undercosted

I'd agree on every other example you mention, but as for the IG psykers bit... are you sure about that?

50 points for a T3 W2 model with a 5+/5++, for 50 points. Yep, a warp charge, a primaris power plus one randomly generated power, but for another 25 points you can obtain, get this, another warp charge and another randomly generated power! What a steal! Those librarians and their power armor and their bikes don't stand a chance against the undercosted-ness of the Primaris Psyker!

Seriously, IG's HQ psykers are balanced, if not just a little overcosted. They are very expensive given how incredibly fragile they are, but are generally effective force multipliers. It doesn't make guardsmen they buff way OTT OP though. It's still mostly just lasgun shots. Except those rare occasions where they sometimes Rend (and do you really think giving IG infantry an option to deal with those crazy tough MCs is really gamebreaking? Or maybe those occasions where you can get that 4++ on a blob. Regular guardsmen getting a 50/50 non-rerollable save (unless you're in combat and you get a priest hymn off, which is actually fairly difficult to accomplish)? Inconceivably cheesy, am I right? Guardsmen should come off the table as soon as the opponent looks at them funny, right?

Unless you're referring to the Elites choice Wyrdvane Psykers, in which case I'm not even sure where to begin.

I thought they were cheaper than that, being IG models. Okay, that's pretty reasonable. I"m not sure what a 440 pt IG squad looks like exactly, then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Good luck getting your force weapon to a Stormsurge or Riptide. Most deathstars even buckle to Tau shooting.

No, they don't.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/03/40k-tournament-championship-top-16-lists.html

Two Riptide Wings allied into other armies, no Stormsurge, no Tau primaries.

How many psychic armies do you see? Screamerstar took the win btw.

Daemons are really good. Probably better than Tau, even. But that doesn't prevent Tau from having some unfair models. It just means demons have even more, or theirs are more exploitable.

Or, psychic powers > markerlights/riptides.

Keep in mind that psychic deathstars generally a good counter to tau.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Or, psychic powers > markerlights/riptides.

Keep in mind that psychic deathstars generally a good counter to tau.

That's mainly due to built-in rerollable invulns or access to invisibility. But yes, that's why those two things are super common.

Martel732 wrote:
Deep striking a terrible unit (45ppm, really?), getting intercepted, and then trying to assault is not a solution to Tau empire. It's not unwillingness to change, it's that your proposed solution does not work in practice. It's not as simple as "fast melee". It has be cost effective, high durability/pt fast melee. Some lists just don't have this. I guess I'm expected to stick Celestine out in front of a squad at this point.

"You can pop 8 wounds on it in one turn. Its been done many times, with far less impressive units pulling the trigger. "

The odds are heavily against this for most lists. Layered saves that can not be removed are brutal. We're talking 43 B4 melta shots or lascannon shots to kill it one turn. Or 8 relentless grav cannons. This is why Tau gets hate that you don't understand. For 440. 43 lascannons or 8 grav cannons. 440. We have very different definitions of fair.

I've beaten Tau, but only through ridiculous, unreproduceable luck, or with lists that aren't practical vs the field.

"Tau Empire is strong and you need to take its strength into account"

If I had choices that let me do that, I would. But I can't manage a 440 pt unit that sucks up 43 lascannons/8 grav cannons/100's of CC attacks.

Let me be clear on what you just said: You have a unit that you can use...you dont want to. You have Celestine...and you dont want to use her either. You can bring allies to help but you dont wanna'. You dont THINK a Stormsurge can be torrented...so it must not be able to be torrented? You think three Kataphron squads cant get it done? They can. You think three Power Klaws and a lucky stikk wont? It will. My sisters of Battle army can bring it down in one go and you're asking me to think its indomitable.

No. I think i wont buy into the hysteria..

the REALITY of 40K is simple: threats exist that necessitate the Stormsurge in order to defeat them. it is an unfortunately expensive model that requires another 200 points to play at full excellence (either in the form of the Buffmander + Droneswarm or else the Drone-Net). Your army has answers. "I dont wanna use them" is an unacceptable answer. I dont wanna use the Stormsurge +200 points but guess what? I need to.

So at some point you have to stop bemoaning the need for change and...just...change.

I said it won't work. Big difference. Even with assault from deep strike BA terminators are cripplingly expensive for such fragile models. 45 ppm for T4 W1? No, thanks. YOU try using them. These things won't touch Tau after the interceptor fire clears.

"My sisters of Battle army can bring it down in one go"

How?

" You think three Power Klaws and a lucky stikk wont? It will."

I doubt this, but I doubt you'll get there even more.

Celestine.. maybe? Doesn't seem like she really helps that much vs Tau as she herself can't do anything to them and can only protect one squad for being Tau-loled off the table.

What happened to lesser codices being able to hang with just the general? None of your "answers" are actually from my army. In which case, why bother putting any BA on the table at all?

Martel732 wrote:
I said it won't work. Big difference. Even with assault from deep strike BA terminators are cripplingly expensive for such fragile models. 45 ppm for T4 W1? No, thanks. YOU try using them. These things won't touch Tau after the interceptor fire clears.

"My sisters of Battle army can bring it down in one go"

How?

" You think three Power Klaws and a lucky stikk wont? It will."

I doubt this, but I doubt you'll get there even more.

Celestine.. maybe? Doesn't seem like she really helps that much vs Tau as she herself can't do anything to them and can only protect one squad for being Tau-loled off the table.

What happened to lesser codices being able to hang with just the general? None of your "answers" are actually from my army. In which case, why bother putting any BA on the table at all?

Your "doubt" has no bearing on the subject, but you express it frequently.

Sisters of Battle are IDEAL for killing a Stormsurge or anything big like it. they can lay down about 30 STR 8 AP 1 shots on it in turn one. It goes down super fast.

Ive flat our proven the orks can kill it with the bikers as ablation. Ive had it done to me as well. Twas a bummer. Turn two...splat. I even have a hilarious picture of a Buzzgob Stompa smashing my unwounded Stormsurge and getting four six's. sigh.

Celesting and her friends can soak all the overwatch for you if thats your concern and then the real threat can kill the Stormsurge without her. interceptor is cool and stuff, but its without the help of markerlights. what you can do is have units shoot from an angle that takes the nearest Tau models away from the Surge. Clear out those within 6" of it before charging and charge with more than one unit. Your formation lets you drop and attack wit hthree units. So why wouldnt you.

Despair isn't a reason. Thats all Im saying Martel.

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Blast markers can cause hits, and when you roll to wound you can create a pool of infinite wounds. But under the wound allocation rules, unless you have permission via barrage, ignore LOS (like tau SMS homing rule, or magnus) you are not allowed to allocate those wounds to units you cannot see. so you might have 150 wounds to apply, but barring a special condition, you cannot allocate those wounds to anyone you cannot see. so you have 149 wasted wounds, or that 1 guy got really shot to death 150 times over.


And to the OP, just have fun rocking rail rifle pathfinders, piranhas, and burst cannon crisis suits.

"So why wouldnt you. "

Because the units I have to purchase to do so are terrible and ineffective for their cost.
Also, bringing OIF is an autolose vs SW or demons.

" but its without the help of markerlights"

Drone net is all the rage in my group unfortunately. I haven't figured out a way around this.

Martel732 wrote:
"So why wouldnt you. "

Because the units I have to purchase to do so are terrible and ineffective for their cost.
Also, bringing OIF is an autolose vs SW or demons.

" but its without the help of markerlights"

Drone net is all the rage in my group unfortunately. I haven't figured out a way around this.

The point was...the Stormsurge is not so cheap when you consider the cost of the Drones to make it awesome.

Also, Drone nets are NO LESS than 224 points. a StormSurve 440, and Riptide wing is about 700 points fully decked out with FnP, its toughest version. Add leader. Remaining points is likely around 300-400 points to spend. the list writes itself when you do that. Farsight Crisis drops for Obsec most likely.

Pretty good. dual Stormsurge is even more restrictive obviously and scary as it should be but oh so few models on the board.

Knowing those two builds are likey the most powerful you will see, you know the starting point as the opponent for planning.

With so few SIGNIFICANT models to kill, the likely priority is the Riptide Wing. Easiest to charge, easiest to stay in melee with for a round and get freed on the opponents turn if luck holds out and they were wise enough to use their Nova Reactor for shielding instead of shooting.

ill pm you my thoughts on a list for this. I don't have the codex so i hope my points are correct. You can look it up and tell me if Im off.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Blast markers can cause hits, and when you roll to wound you can create a pool of infinite wounds. But under the wound allocation rules, unless you have permission via barrage, ignore LOS (like tau SMS homing rule, or magnus) you are not allowed to allocate those wounds to units you cannot see. so you might have 150 wounds to apply, but barring a special condition, you cannot allocate those wounds to anyone you cannot see. so you have 149 wasted wounds, or that 1 guy got really shot to death 150 times over.


And to the OP, just have fun rocking rail rifle pathfinders, piranhas, and burst cannon crisis suits.

My copy of the rules specifically states blasts can hit AND wound models out of line of sight. Sounds like permission to me.

Yea then it says follow normal shooting rules; so you hit, you wounded, but you can't allocate out of LoS.

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Blast markers can cause hits, and when you roll to wound you can create a pool of infinite wounds. But under the wound allocation rules, unless you have permission via barrage, ignore LOS (like tau SMS homing rule, or magnus) you are not allowed to allocate those wounds to units you cannot see. so you might have 150 wounds to apply, but barring a special condition, you cannot allocate those wounds to anyone you cannot see. so you have 149 wasted wounds, or that 1 guy got really shot to death 150 times over.


And to the OP, just have fun rocking rail rifle pathfinders, piranhas, and burst cannon crisis suits.

My copy of the rules specifically states blasts can hit AND wound models out of line of sight. Sounds like permission to me.

You are correct, then can hit, and can "wound" (as in add more numbers of wounds), which puts wounds in a wound pool. But to allocate those wounds to models, check out the wound allocation section of BRB. Without LOS on models to apply wounds from the wound pool, those bonus wounds go to waste. So infinitely large non-barrage, now LOS ignoring blast marker hits an infinite number of models, but solely 1 is in line of sight, then the infinite number of wounds -1 (or whatever it takes after saving throws) are not allowed to wound models out of LOS per the allocating wounds rules in brb.

And no, it doesn't make sense that an explosion would say, "ahh dang, the guy that shot me can't see you, guess you're safe this time," but it is the rules per wound allocation.

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Blast markers can cause hits, and when you roll to wound you can create a pool of infinite wounds. But under the wound allocation rules, unless you have permission via barrage, ignore LOS (like tau SMS homing rule, or magnus) you are not allowed to allocate those wounds to units you cannot see. so you might have 150 wounds to apply, but barring a special condition, you cannot allocate those wounds to anyone you cannot see. so you have 149 wasted wounds, or that 1 guy got really shot to death 150 times over.


And to the OP, just have fun rocking rail rifle pathfinders, piranhas, and burst cannon crisis suits.

My copy of the rules specifically states blasts can hit AND wound models out of line of sight. Sounds like permission to me.

FAQ. As I mentioned before, the core rules have templates and blasts working differently.

 Wolfblade wrote:
It's not just vs tau. It's against ANYTHING shooty army. No LOS blocking terrain is inherently unfair for an assault army.

I won't play a game unless there is LOS blocking terrain (and impassable terrain). Having units just move and shoot all over the board is just ridiculous. Movement and positioning should matter.

Games with no LOS blocking terrain are ridiculously unfair to melee armies to the point where there is no point in even playing. The board should always have several pieces of LOS blocking terrain (and not tiny pieces, but significant ones).

ITC tournament standard is an LOS blocker in the middle as well as 25% around the rest of it. We got out our Gekkalculators and figured out that with the three standard deployment zones, the best way to arrange a board was buildings at 45 degree angles towards the center point, and an LOS blocker in the middle. this created the maximum chance fora fair deployment zone, given the three primary types of deployment. Fun fact.

There's nothing wrong with minimal LOS... in the context of a narrative scenario, say desert warfare in North Africa. Strategic command probably wouldn't send a bunch of alpine troops kitted for winter warfare.

The whole idea of standardized terrain is bizarre from that perspective. But otherwise you can't establish a competitive yardstick, I guess.

Battle of kursk on the open steppes of the ussr comes to mind.

 Jancoran wrote:
ITC tournament standard is an LOS blocker in the middle as well as 25% around the rest of it. We got out our Gekkalculators and figured out that with the three standard deployment zones, the best way to arrange a board was buildings at 45 degree angles towards the center point, and an LOS blocker in the middle. this created the maximum chance fora fair deployment zone, given the three primary types of deployment. Fun fact.

Sounds good to me. Still not really ideal though. For someone who uses Heralds to summon, and plenty of CC units, not having LOS blocking terrain pretty much hands me a loss (if I go up against a shooty army like Tau or WarCon).

I see los blocking terrain being a necessity as a serious irritation. It's basically an admission that shooting is undercosted because assault units need a free handicap.

There are of course those magical assault units that dont need this handicap and then they become godly on this kind of board.

I also don't find the game very tactically appealing when there is no LOS blocking terrain. It almost reduces it to the level of a board game where the best list wins.

It basically means units (if they have enough range) can just shoot anything on the map. At this point it just feels like rolling dice and the terrain and tactics don't even mean much. In other words, no LOS terrain = List vs List with the best math hammer winning.

I like my positions to actually matter. Secondly, I also hate not using impassable terrain. It allows models to just seamlessly roll though the entire map.

There have been games where I've hidden a unit behind cover and my opponent just charges straight through all the terrain, including the walls of buildings. I was like "wtf".

Now I always talk it over with my opponents beforehand.

Even with LOS blocking terrain, it's exceedingly difficult to get out of the LOS of scatterbikes and other fast shooters. Unless your terrain piece is MASSIVE.

Doesnt matter WHY it makes sense. it does. That is enough for me.

I come to enjoy the game, not lose by default. The game changed and with it the need for balance. Only the liberals care about words like "should" and "deserves". The REALITY is that the game REQUIRES an LOS blocker to make the game more dynamic and interesting.

Anything that makes it more interesting is instantly good. As napolean often said and as i often now say: Success requires no explanation. Failure allows for none.

I enjoy this game a lot and the Tau Empire are my jam. I think they would be a lot less fun if there were no terrain to stop us from raining death at will, at range until your smoldering boots are all thats left. dont get me wrong. I want lots of smoldering boots in front of me. I just want it to be a struggle. LOS blocking terrain is one thing that helps it become one.

"The REALITY is that the game REQUIRES an LOS blocker to make the game more dynamic and interesting. "

There is a "why" behind this conclusion. It just doesn't exist in a vacuum. I suspect it's supported by test games.

I find it bizarre that something that is *required* is never mentioned in the rule book and costs no points. Again, basically, it's a handicap for assault lists. Except GW never admits this nor even mentions how much terrain to use, much less what *specific kind*.

"Success requires no explanation"

It does if you are trying to teach. It also does in science, but that's another snowball.

Martel732 wrote:
"The REALITY is that the game REQUIRES an LOS blocker to make the game more dynamic and interesting. "

There is a "why" behind this conclusion. It just doesn't exist in a vacuum. I suspect it's supported by test games.

I find it bizarre that something that is *required* is never mentioned in the rule book and costs no points. Again, basically, it's a handicap for assault lists. Except GW never admits this nor even mentions how much terrain to use, much less what *specific kind*.

"Success requires no explanation"

It does if you are trying to teach. It also does in science, but that's another snowball.

I have played over 2000 games of Warhammer 40,000 since 2004. its clear to me beyond any doubt that LOS blockers make it a better game. incidentally, this isnt science and it isnt teaching. I'm just explaining a subjective fact that has been generally agreed on and is supported by all the experiences of all the people playing it. If you disagree great. if you dont, let it go. thats my advice.

I didn't say I didn't agree. I said it's weird that is has no point costs and no formality in the rules ANYWHERE. Obviously BA get better if there is more crap to hide behind, and at the same time, most players with shooty lists want less for me to hide behind.

Another way to view is assault lists function at the whim of the person setting up the board. That seems like a serious weakness in the system.

Again, basically, it's a handicap for assault lists.

No, it helps shooting units too (units with short range that need to get into range).

I am all for impassible terrain too. I don't think the opposite is fair either (melee units moving all over the map, even though walls).

I like a mix of both. It's also why I bring lists that are shooting + melee.

 Whitebeard wrote:

Again, basically, it's a handicap for assault lists.

No, it helps shooting units too (units with short range that need to get into range).

I am all for impassible terrain too. I don't think the opposite is fair either (melee units moving all over the map, even though walls).

I like a mix of both. It's also why I bring lists that are shooting + melee.

Short range shooting units functions more like assault units, though. At least, that's how I see them.

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't say I didn't agree. I said it's weird that is has no point costs and no formality in the rules ANYWHERE. Obviously BA get better if there is more crap to hide behind, and at the same time, most players with shooty lists want less for me to hide behind.

One way I've played which has worked out well is that each player takes turns placing a single piece of terrain of their choice, and after each player places X pieces of terrain, any player can choose to stop placing terrain on their turn and start the rest of the game. For what it's worth, it's fun, nobody feels cheated, and usually ends up with a fun board to play on.

There's lots of ways to do it , obviously. It just seems like a VERY critical step to have no formalism at all.

yeah that works. I tend to like a handicap, so i let my opponent set the board up and other than the LOS blocker, i leave it to them. Seems unfair for me to set it all up and i want their to be no arguments after the game as to whether "my placement of terrain" was the "only reason why" I won. I hate excuses, so i simply take them away by not caring about the terrain other than that one element that i think all games need. The LOS blocker.

Martel732 wrote:
There's lots of ways to do it , obviously. It just seems like a VERY critical step to have no formalism at all.

File it under "forge the narrative", I suppose.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
yeah that works. I tend to like a handicap, so i let my opponent set the board up and other than the LOS blocker, i leave it to them. Seems unfair for me to set it all up and i want their to be no arguments after the game as to whether "my placement of terrain" was the "only reason why" I won. I hate excuses, so i simply take them away by not caring about the terrain other than that one element that i think all games need. The LOS blocker.

I've played a couple games where one person sets up the entire board, and the opponent auto-wins the initiative roll off.

Not I. But I mean I'm not discounting that experience. Just saying I think that the terrain has never been the trouble. I can always object a little if its just too crazy but I tend not to. Again: terrain wont make the decision in my game. Reserves are always a thing if it becomes necessary. At tournaments you have to live with whats there.

 Whitebeard wrote:

Again, basically, it's a handicap for assault lists.

No, it helps shooting units too (units with short range that need to get into range).

And ofc it also helps those shooters that have range but would perhaps like to set up so that the entire enemy gunline can't obliterate them on turn one.

I can see how someone with a shooty army would find it nice to see all of the enemy assault guys closing in, but when he faces another shooter it's just a matter of who can wipe out key units faster. Is that even fun?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:

Again, basically, it's a handicap for assault lists.

No, it helps shooting units too (units with short range that need to get into range).

And ofc it also helps those shooters that have range but would perhaps like to set up so that the entire enemy gunline can't obliterate them on turn one.

I can see how someone with a shooty army would find it nice to see all of the enemy assault guys closing in, but when he faces another shooter it's just a matter of who can wipe out key units faster. Is that even fun?

Good question.

Martel732 wrote:
Battle of kursk on the open steppes of the ussr comes to mind.

Exactly.

Theoretically, you'd think BA would do something intellligent, like use heavy armor, indirect fire, and superior range to fight mech forces over open ground.

Jump units wouldn't come into play unless they're moving through a covered approach like a canyon, or digging out entrenched forces in urban warfare.

Force construction rules contextual on mission and scenario might solve that problem. Tau/Eldar standoff shooting wouldn't be so obnoxious if every tourney also had a few close quarters missions, where shooting-focused armies need to play a scenario to their weakness. Asymmetrical balance is difficult but pretty interesting from a design standpoint.